September 19, 2024 • 37 mins
On this episode of the Giants Huddle podcast, John Schmeelk chats with former NFL linebacker and analyst at Fox Sports, Jonathan Vilma, to discuss the matchup between the Giants and Browns. Then we are joined by ESPN Cleveland host and producer, Aaron Goldhammer, to chat about the Cleveland Browns team and their identity to start the 2024 season.
:00 - Jonathan Vilma
25:44 - Aaron Goldhammer
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants. Hunt's let's go.
Let's go Giants. Get my Giants, mob, give me some job.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Part of the Giants Podcast Network, Let's roll. Welcome to
another edition of the Giants Little Podcast, brought to you
by Citizens, the official bank of the New York Football Giants.
I am John Schmel, Great Giants Little Podcast coming for
you today. Jonathan Wilma will have the call on Fox
Sports of Giants and Browns on Sunday, also the Giants
in week one. He will join us first. Then we're
gonna have Aaron Goldhammer from ESPN Cleveland giving us a
(00:28):
little bit of an inside view of exactly what's going
on at the micro level with the Cleveland Browns. All right,
let's get right to it. Let's lead off with my
interview with Jonathan Vilma. And now we welcome in our
first guest. He's Jonathan Vilma, a former NFL linebacker and
of course he is the call of the game on
Fox one o'clock Sunday, Giants and Browns. All right, John,
you were the Giants in week one. I'm sure you've
(00:49):
watched the Week two game. Let's start on the positive side. First,
where do you see the most progress from the Giants
offense from Week one, where frankly was pretty much a disaster,
to Week two where they did a lot better.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, week one, as you mentioned, it was rough. I
say the two biggest things was were getting the ball
down the field, stretching defense. They didn't do that against
the Vikings. They did that last week against the Commanders.
And then Daniel Jones being more decisive with the football
(01:22):
with his decisions and whether it was a right throw
not a right throw, just get the ball out of
your hands, get it in play. I think those two
things were much improved. You could see the difference that
opened up the running game with Singletary, who by the way,
made some very great individual cuts, individual efforts. So I
(01:44):
think that having the threat of stretching the defense, knowing
that Daniel Jones is going to get the ball out quickly,
opening up the run game, that helped out for them
and they should be benefit them going on from Week
three through the rest of the season. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I want to fall up on a couple of those
because I think he makes some really good points. For Jones,
you mentioned being decisive, I thought his comfort and balance
in the pocket was much better. That allowed some better,
more accurate throws down the field. Do you think that's
a product of him just being more comfortable from his
first game back after the knee injury last year. Footwork
is something that they talked about, they worked on in
(02:20):
practice in between week one and week two. It just
looked like he was far more comfortable in that pocket
than he was in week number one.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, and I should mention that. Glad you brought it up. John.
He hadn't played football for what nine months, eight months,
nine months, whatever it is, right, So it's just not
expected or it's unreasonable to think in his first game
he was going to be as sharp as he was
when he was in his heyday right before he got injured.
(02:49):
So even if you're healthy physically mentally, you still got
to catch up, and it takes a game or two
or three sometimes to get that clock back to speed
mentally and get the timing down because practice is practice, right,
it's a control the environment. Once you get in the game,
it's completely different and you have to be able to
process faster. So I think he definitely, I should say
(03:13):
to the fans should not overreact over week one what
you see in week two I believe it's going to
be more of what you're going to see from Daniel
Jones moving forward.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
And maybe this is a weird question, but do you
think he almost has to get used to having better protection?
You did better, I mean you did giant games last year.
You know how poor the offensive line played. They give
up eighty five sacks.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
It was a mess.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
It was not good, and it almost seemed like in
Week one he was anticipating some of that pressure even
when it wasn't there. He ran into a couple of sacks.
Do you think as this offensive line continues to play
a little bit better, he's going to gain confidence in
that line and that's gonna make his mental processing back
there a little bit better because he's not feeling is rushed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, I would say that they're The first game was
a bit of mental gymnastics. So you got to give
credit to Brian Floores, defensive coordinator. There were a lot
of looks that you, frankly couldn't tell is he coming
or is he not coming? Right? And it looked the same.
Sometimes they drop guys out. Sometimes they rushed six guys.
(04:16):
So I think that if there were I couldn't pick
up a worse defense to go against in week one
for Daniel Jones and a new offensive line, right, So
I think that now moving forward, you don't get that confusion,
so to speak. And it's not that they were confused,
(04:37):
it's that the defense is hard to decipher. And now
you have an offensive line. Where as you said, they're
giving him time and I don't think he has to
get used to it. I think that he's going to
be able to go through his progressions more and then
when he has that comfort. Right, So, when you have
in week one, you know, eight guys on line of
(05:00):
scrimmage and it looks like a blaz in your head,
naturally you're gonna think, all right, if they do come,
I gotta get the ball out quickly. If they don't come,
or well, I still have to figure out where where
is my read. It wasn't so much for week two.
So I think that both the offensive line and Daniel Jones,
they were able to sit back and say, okay, it's
a four man rush. We know who to protect, we
(05:21):
know how to protect. Daniel Jones was comfortable knowing that
they're going to get the guys and then he had
time to throw Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
We too he got to that one backside deep out
on a going to the second read on the other
side of the field, and I had, frankly, Jonathan, going
back to the last year or so, I didn't remember
the last time he even had a time in the
pocket to make that type of long, deep field read,
get to the backside, make a strong throw, step into it,
and not get hit after he made the throw. And
I thought that play, specifically against the Commanders, was one
(05:50):
that jumped out of me like, all right, wow, if
they can figure this out, I see some pieces here
that can.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Make this work. Yeah, one hundred percent agree. And going
back to your question about come for that is the
example of comfort. Right, He's he's back there and he's
able to go read one, read, two, red three all
the way to the backside, sit in and make a
throw right. So that is and it's encouraging. Frankly, right,
I know that unfortunately the Giants are owing two, but
(06:18):
if I'm a fan I'm watching the game, you want
to see your team doing this, And unfortunately the wins
may or may not come with it. But as long
as your team is doing this, they will eventually get
on a three game game, four game five game win
streak if they're doing the right things. You mentioned the
deep shots.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
They didn't connect on those deep shots against Washington, But
I want to I want to make your perspective as
a defensive player though. Yea and Johnathan Cacio so I
know you're very close to I do the peering post
game with them. He always talks about this, John, I
don't care if they complete them. They just gotta take them.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Take those shots.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
What does that do to a defense when you see
the offense is willing to take those shots down the field.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah, So what it does mentally? First, mentally, it tell
the safeties. It tells the corners we got to back up.
We gotta stay honest. Right, So you get a lot
of safeties, a lot of corners. If you don't threaten
them deep, they get flat footed. They break up on
all your routes. And that it's not just a passing
(07:15):
game that affects. It's the run game as well, because
now you're safetyes again flat footed, and they're ready to
break up on the run. So if you never threaten
the defense deep, you're gonna have these safeties that they're
lining up at eight all of a sudden, they're filling
the gaps at three yards four yards as opposed to
I have to take two steps back just in case
(07:37):
he throws a deep ball. And then now when they
fill in for the run game, that's at five six yards, right,
So that big difference is a first down you get
five yards, second down you get five yards. That's another
first down as opposed to safeties fill up first down
three yards, second down three yards. Now you're facing a
third and short. So that's the importance mentally for having
(08:01):
the deep ball. And then physically you don't You don't
have to connect on all of them. You just got
to connect on one, right, That's all you really need, right,
you just need to have one sixty yar bomb and
all of a sudden, everyone's like whoa, whoahoa, Okay, all right,
let's let's scratch that defense. Let's figure out what we're
gonna do, et cetera. Right, So, uh, the whole thing
(08:22):
is always about if you're gonna take the shots, make
sure they're calculated, and then try to connect on the
shots you take, And as long as you're continuing to
do that and stretch the defense, you're going to keep
them hones. And it opens up the run game.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
What do you think about Molik Neighbors Part one of
the question, Part two the question what kind of impacts
someilar the deep balls? I think in some ways having
a guy like that on your offense, how does that
impact the defense and how they're game planning against you.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah, Molik Neighbors the best thing that I've seen about him.
His best skill set is high pointing the ball, making
those contested catches, And that is very important because you
can now have confidence in a wide receiver versus man
coverage that you can throw the fifty to fifty ball
(09:11):
and more than likely he will go up and get it.
And that's always scary for a defense for the cornerbacks. Right,
you can be in great coverage, all of a sudden
he out jumps you, he gets the ball and into
twenty yard completion. So I think that is an element
that the Giants didn't have prior to Neighbors. Now that
(09:32):
they have that element, I'm not saying defenses are going
to rejigger their scheme just yet, but you have the
ability or if you're Daniel Jones, the luxury of saying, okay,
nothing's open. I know if I throw this ball to neighbors.
It's a high likelihood he's going to go up and
get it. So I love that skill set about him.
And again, this is a rookie we're talking about. He's
(09:56):
having to figure out not only press man and best
corner going against them, but what coverages are throwing against him,
adjusting his routes based on the coverage. Being in single
with Daniel Jones, So there's a lot on his plate.
There's a lot of expectation. I would temper those expectations
and just continue to be happy with the process and
(10:17):
watch them developed.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, and no need him against the press man that
the Browns are going to play this week, and we'll
touch on that a little bit later. We talked about
the offensive line real quickly in pass protection. I thought
the run game they were really good. They saw a
lot of soft boxes, They ran a lot of that
duo stuff, and you mentioned singletary he made. He turned
a bunch of six yard runs into like fifteen yard
runs in that game, which is what you want out
of a running back. Would you think of the Giants
(10:39):
running game after again, we saw it in Week one.
They were getting the light boxes versus the vikings too.
They couldn't take advantage of it, but they could in
week two.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, the first thing is, which is very important, Daniel
Jones actually started running the football and that keeps the
defense honest. When you now have the zone read, they're
not anticipating Singletary getting the ball and now you have
Daniel Jones who can take it out the back end.
So it goes back to keeping a defense honest. That
(11:07):
defensive end or outside linebacker or safety, now they cannot
fall back as quickly. And because they couldn't fall back
as quickly, that's what opened up the holes for Singletary.
And as you mentioned, he made that extra guy miss,
that one guy miss and get the big games. So
it was encouraging to see that. What was also encouraging
(11:28):
was to see that each offensive lineman at some point
was able to handle their own one on one block.
They didn't have to need the combo up, you know,
the chip combo up to the second level. And so
that's also something that you can take the rest of
the season, right and so, and again we should also
(11:49):
mention the Commanders D line is not too bad. They're
pretty good defensive front. So you look at this game
coming up Browns have a good defensive front as well.
They obviously have Miles Garrett. But you know that the
offensive line is capable of holding the one on one
blocks sustaining it. You know that Daniel Jones is capable
(12:09):
of taking it out the back end on a zone read.
It's not like he's going to score. But again, keeping
the defense hoes and as long as you can hold
up to those principles, it should be a good day
for the Giants. All right.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Now, let's go to the not so good, the defensive
side of the ball. And like I mentioned, I did
the postgame show with Jonathan can See as I watched
the game with him. As the Giants get gouge in
the running game, he still takes it personally now it
drives him nuts as a linebacker. He hates seeing teams
run the football. I'm sure you're the same exact way
when you watch the Giants run defense. Frankly, the first
two weeks it wasn't very good against the Vikings with
the commanders. What's going wrong there? And how do they
(12:43):
fix it?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
What's going wrong? Tackling is what's going wrong? How do
they fix it? You spend time in practice doing tackling drills.
What we used to do with the Saints. We would
if we had a padded practice day, we would make
sure that we stopped the scout team's offensive players stop
(13:05):
his momentum. So what does that do? That forces you
to wrap them up, run your feet, stop his momentum,
and then let him keep running right finish the play.
And those little things helped out in the game because
it was one programming us to now react accordingly. You tackle,
you run your feet, you stop their momentum. The second
(13:28):
was that it gets your angles down right. So a
lot of poor tackling comes from a poor angle. Sometimes
you know, you don't wrap up, et cetera. But a
lot of it is just that your timing is off,
your angles are off. And so in practice we made
an emphasis on doing that so we could be a
good tackling team. Because it's one thing. If someone's gonna
(13:48):
missattackle of course that always happens. The problem comes where
you have one player missa tackle, then you have two
or three other guys rallying, and then they took poor
angles and now they miss tackles as well. They're just
like arm tackling and stuff like that. So that's the
biggest thing that I saw. Fortunately, it's very easy to correct.
(14:09):
You just got to put an emphasis on it, and
then you have guys that want to do it right.
Okaya k he's been a tackling machine for years, so
we know that he's capable. McFadden same thing, right, So
defensive line, we know that they can do it. So
as I would say, it's encouraging in the sense of
it's not you know, fire sale where you have to
(14:30):
revamp your whole scheme. It's just a matter of putting
emphasis on tackling. Now.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
In terms of the past defense, I believe it's the
first time in Giant's history that they've allowed quarterbacks in
the first two games of the year to complete I
think it's seventy eight percent of their passes or something
like that. There's been a lot of easy throws, and
they also give up some third and longs. Against the Commanders,
you have two third and thirteen's on the same drive.
I know the Giants player zone heavy ski scheme, Jonathan,
(14:55):
but is there a way to even if you're keeping
things in front of you, to be more aggressive where
you're not giving up so many of those easy passes
and then frankly just getting your depth right to not
allow some of those starn and long conversions.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yes, So the short answer is, yes, you can be
more aggressive, can be more aggressive and not allowed for
completions up and down the field. I would say it's
a little harder to kind of dissect it because I
don't know if shame Bowen is teaching them right. So
(15:28):
Shame Bowen may be telling them, err on the conservative side,
and so you don't want to double move, And if
you don't want to double move, that means you're more
than likely going to be late reacting to the throws
right the pitch and catch, and so he could be
saying that. He could also be saying, hey, look, I
don't care what they do between the twenties right, as
(15:51):
long as when they get inside the twenty they don't score,
which was great to see against the Commanders right, seven
field goals zero for six for the Commander's offense in
the red zone. So those things, I don't know if
it's schematic, I don't know if it's a philosophy thing
with Shane Bowen. I would say the other part to
(16:11):
it is the tackle, right, it goes, it goes back
to that, right, So if you have a catch in
front of you for eight yards, well, don't let them
fall forward for another three that's a first down. Right,
If you have a catch in front of you for
six yards, don't let them fall forward and make it
third and short or second and short. So you know,
a lot of those things can be corrected. And I
(16:33):
mentioned it because that's what I saw on film. You
get a guy, they wrap him up, but all of
a sudden he's able to stretch forward, lean forward, wiggle
out of a tackle, and you're saying, oh man, the
defense is bad. No, the scheme was fine. They're where
they're supposed to be. The issue is that they didn't
execute the tackling portion of it, which is what's giving
up the big plays.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, and that happened in a couple of those Jade
and Daniel scrambles. Isaiah Simmons missed the tackle on the
right side. That happened a couple of times over the
course of that game. All right, let's talk about the
match up real quick here before we say goodbye. Jonathan
Browns leaned into a lot of extra offensive line stuff
last week. Six offensive linemen, seven offensive linemen on the
field sometimes, are you almost having a flashback to your
playing days when when you start in the league, all
(17:13):
these teams are running cover two And the answer a
lot of teams seem to have you have now is like,
all right, well, we're just gonna pound you. Now, we're
gonna go big and we're gonna pound your two safeties
deep and kind of attack you that way. Is that
how you see more teams and how you saw the
Browns kind of try to work their offense a little
bit last week.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought it up. It's it's
just funny how the NFL works, right.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's all cycle, dude, Everything comes back.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Everything comes back. Right. So everyone was with the big linemen,
big backers, you know, big safety, stop the run, stop
the run. All of a sudden, we said, the offense
is said, fine, will spread you out, and you know,
we'll pass the game. We'll use the passing game and
be pass happy. And then now defenses they've caught up
to the passing game. You know, Safeties are a little smaller, quicker,
(18:00):
they frankly, some of them can play corner. Right back
in the day, they definitely could have played corner. Same
thing with the corners able to move great speed, and
so you have backers now that are smaller, they're really
good in space, and so everyone has forgotten about how
to fit up the run game, and so the offenses
are now going back to it. And like you said,
I saw it with the Pats game. I called the
(18:22):
Pats game last week. They were going jumbo right, bringing
in that big offensive tackle. And so what I see
happening is the offenses are trying to give you personnel mismatches,
and they're trying to do it in game and then
keep you stuck in that personnel so that they can
continue to run, ground and pound until then you finally
(18:44):
decide to go big and then they open it back
up on you. So I like the chess match that's
going on. I do see it coming around the league
a lot. I think that it's again natural. I don't
even know what you call it, right, It's just the
progression I should say for the NFL for the offenses
where the defense is finally caught up to the passing game. Now,
(19:07):
let's go back to the running game.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
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So go to that retreat new you moves to the country.
Now you're raising goats and launching a lifestyle brand. Are
you ready for all that life breaks?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah? I think it's funny how everything does, in fact
always come back. How would you attack this Brown's defense?
You know they are not you know, kind of in
vogue NFL defense where it's you know, two safeties deep.
It's cool, it's cover two, it's cover four, it's cover six.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
They run a ton of man demand.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
You know, they're gonna get in your face in that
canna allow any easy completion. So if you're the giants,
how do you attack this defense when you come out
on Sunday afternoon?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, if you're the giants, any of these very aggressive
pressman teams, you attack them with their eyes, with misdirection,
with slip screens. So if you're neighbor, If I'm neighbors
and I'm the offense, I'm gonna make sure I put
him in motion. I'm gonna make sure that he's the
third man in a bunch formation. If I'm singletary, I'm
(20:11):
gonna figure out ways to get him again. Those slip screens,
some screens out the backfield, get some screens to neighbors, right,
he's good with the ball Wandelle Robinson very good with
the ball in his hands as well. And so what
you're doing is you're trying to tire out the defense laterally,
you just get him running latterly, get them running, keep
them running, and then all of a sudden you take
those timely shots over the top. And it doesn't always
(20:34):
have to be a design play. It could just be
one where I said, you're testing them right, keep those
those safeties honest. And if you can get the defensive
line running latterally instead of running at your quarterback, you
do that four or five times, sustain drives, you're gonna
find that the defense, like any other defense, they start
(20:54):
to get tired, they don't get off blocks as quickly,
and then that opens up the run game. So defense
is like that. Yeah, I'm a big fan of boots
rolling out the zone. Lead is gonna be great, especially
with Daniel Jones being able to run the football and
then the slip screens and then trying to hit them
over the top. Great.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
All right, two more questions I like to ask defensive
players about great players on that side of the ball.
Miles garretson Freakschelle right, he's to seventy, moves like a
guy that's two fifty. When you watch that guy, does
he remind you of anyone that you played with or
played against when you were in the league, or and
then what just makes him so awesome?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, Miles Garrett, he is one of one. He is rare,
very very rare talent wise, generational talent. You already hit
it on the head. He's two seventy. He moves like
he's two fifty. He bends like he's a safety a corner.
(21:52):
It is ridiculous. I've never seen him more than like
three feet off the ground. So he gets in that
tracks dants. He never raises up. You get a lot
of guys that get in the track stance, they fire
off for like two steps, but then they raise up
and they're they're you know, six foot seven again, and
all of a sudden, offensive offics can get them. He
is not like that man. He gets under everybody can bend.
(22:15):
I mean it is to be honest, I'm a fan
watching him right and I know I have to be
unbiased on Sunday, but I just love watching great players.
He is a great player, great athlete, great motor. I
mean they always talk about outworking your opponent and all
that stuff. There's there's nothing you can do against a
(22:36):
guy who's more athletic than you and works just as
hard as you, right, like that, what are you gonna do? Right?
You need help? So you know, so you know watching
him that that's what I see. Right, He makes you
pay if you if you ever disrespect him by leaving
him one on one with an offensive tackle for more
than three seconds, he makes you pay. And that's what
(22:58):
great players do.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, And it's basically the same thing with Dexter Lawrence, right,
Like he can't block that dude one on one.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
He's just bigger and more athletic than you. Yeah, And
you know what, I remember interviewing Dexter Lawrence last year
when he really started to come on, and I remember
asking him because the years prior he was really good,
but he wasn't. Now, you know, the best defensive tackle,
if not one of the best. And it goes back
to working hard. He said he kind of changed a
(23:26):
couple of things that he was doing in his preparation.
He was changing the way he ate his what he
was doing off the field as far as getting ready
for games, and that was it right because he was
already super athletic, super talented. This guy's three hundred and
fifty pounds runs with the best of them, as powerful
as any defensive tackle I've seen. And then all of
(23:46):
a sudden, he now has a work ethic behind it. Again,
I just get to sit back and watch right and
get to enjoy it. Feel bad for the offensive linement,
but he's a talent.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, no question. In the final question you liked to
you had to check match with quarterbacks and you were
a player as a minna linebacker. Right, you go back
and forth and watch him, And this is probably a
more complicated topic than we can cover here in our
in our final thirty seconds, But what's going on with
the Shawn Watson? Like he used to he was a
great quarterback man, like he led the league in passing yards,
and now he just doesn't look like the same guy
(24:18):
when you watch him. What's going on with the Shawn Watson?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Right now? What I see is a quarterback that is
still trying to figure out figure it out with his
wide receivers and his tight ends. It looks like it's
not about being on the same page. It's about trust,
and right now he doesn't have the trust to just one, two, three,
throw it, throw it to a spot and trust that
(24:45):
his man is going to get there. And I reference
my days with Drew Brees, him and Marcus Colston. It
was like Drew Brees could throw with his eyes closed
to the spot. He knew Marcus Colston was going to
get there right and it didn't matter what pressure was
in this face, it didn't matter what coverage. He just
trusted and knew it was gonna happen. And so when
(25:05):
you have that kind of trust, camaraderie with your with
your skill guys, it just makes for a very smooth,
efficient offense. And it's just not there yet. It'll I
don't know how long it'll take. You know, it's a
work in progress. He did play better in week two,
so that that's what I'm seeing, and the more I
guess time on tasks that they have together, they'll eventually
(25:27):
gain that trust.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Jonathan, this was great. Have an awesome call with our
with our guy Kitty Albert in week number three Giants
and Browns at one o'clock. Thanks so much of the time, man,
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Oh thanks Jean, take care, you love turf.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
You're good at it. So you start a turf fizz
business grows, your savings grow, become the most celebrated name
in turf. Are you ready for all that life brings?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
That's Jonathan Bilma.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Great stuff out of him, and don't forget the Johns.
Total podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the official
bank of the Giants. From game day celebrations to your
everyday financial needs, Big Blue fans can get the most
out of every moment with Citizens. Learn more at citizens
bank dot com slash Giants. Now let's turn off our
attention to a closer look at the Cleveland Browns. Aaron
Goldhammer those morning radio Drive time in Cleveland for ESPN
(26:17):
Radio Cleveland. Here's my conversation with him. All right, that's
Jonathan Vilma. Now we welcome in Aaron Goldhammer ESPN Cleveland
Morning Drive, the really big show. Hamm a time.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
What's going on, buddy? How are you? Oh Schvelke.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
We've got a couple teams here that both need a win.
So I'm interested to see how this is gonna go
on Sunday because I have a feeling it's not gonna
be as easy for the Browns as all the prognosticators
in Vegas things.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, So we just talked to Jonathan Vilma and I'll
get to the Browns injury report in a second, But
the last thing I asked him about was Deshaun Watson.
I asked him, from your perspective as a guy that
it's a game plan for quarterbacks your whole career as
a linebacker, what's wrong with Sehaan Watson? And he said
he does not see the trust in the receiver to
throw with anticipation was a big thing he talked about. Obviously,
(27:04):
you've been in the murk and the mud and the
grind with this for a few years. The hew, So
I'll ask you the same question from your perspective, what's
wrong with the Sean Watson.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
We debated all off season John whether his problems were
his shoulder like physical or above the shoulders, which means
that something mentally is going on with him. And I
agree with Vilma that I think it is a psychological problem.
I think the guy has all the physical gifts that
he had when he was dominating at Clemson and when
he was kicking butt with the Houston Texans, But the
(27:36):
problem is I think that he does not have any
trust and swagger in himself. I think a lot of
that has been lost. And so here's what I think
the Browns have realized going through Week one against the Cowboys,
when they got dominated. In Week two when it was
ugly and slappy, but they played better against the Jaguars.
They need to treat Deshaun Watson like he's a rookie.
(28:00):
And I know that's wild for a guy who's making
two hundred and thirty million dollars in a contract and
is supposed to be a top five quarterback. They they
don't want to throw the ball fifty five times a game. Okay,
does any of this sound familiar to Giants fans and
what's going on with the Giant. They need to treat
him like they don't have Patrick Mahomes back there, and
(28:24):
so they need the lead. They need to run the ball.
They came out and played as much jumbo formation in
that Jacksonville game as I've ever seen in my life.
They played seven offensive linemen on like twenty five percent
of the snaps because they knew they were gonna have
trouble protecting and because they knew they had a deficiency
at quarterback and until Deshaun can slowly brick by Brick
(28:48):
rebuild himself into the quarterback that he was. I think
there are four rookie quarterbacks starting on Sunday, Okay in
the NFL. Jaden Daniels is one, Caleb Williams is Won
Bonnet in Denver, and Deshaun Watson in Cleveland. I think
that's the way the Browns have to look.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
At it well.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
And not a bad week to run the ball, given
the Giants gave up more than two hundred yards last
week to the Commanders, I expect it'll be a heavy
dose before you get more to the brown stuff. Hammer.
Just so fans that we're recording this at around to
ten on Thursday, so injury stuff might change. I went
to the Browns injury report yesterday. I counted approximately two
thousand players on the injury report. Uh, which one of
(29:26):
these guys should we take seriously as to who might
not play? Because there's some big names on here, like
Miles Garrett's a Darius Smith, Denzel Ward, Jedrick Wills, Jerry
Judy David and Jokudwan Jones. Like Miles Garrett, there's a
lot of guys Martin Emerson that are on this list,
who's who you think is realistic and who's not.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
You mentioned Miles twice, and you should mention him like
three more times because he's He's the most important guy
that's on that list. John And I think he's gonna play,
but I think he's gonna be a little limited. I
don't think he's one hundred percent. I think the foot
injury is real. I think it plays into the way
and the number of snaps that he played in Jacksonville.
And I think he'll play, but I don't know that
(30:06):
he'll be out there on every play. I wouldn't expect that.
Denzel Ward was on a pitch count last week, also
against Jacksonville. And I think the Browns have to approach
this smartly. I mean, on the one hand, they know
they don't want to take the Giants lightly, But on
the other hand, they've got a couple winnable games here
that aren't exactly against division opponents and aren't exactly in conference,
(30:30):
So I think they'll be more careful with guys. Not
that they think the win against New York is automatic,
but just if you're gonna have Miles Garrett for the
whole game, would you rather pick the Giant game or
would you rather pick the Ravens or the Bengals, And
they got to keep him healthy for fifteen more weeks.
The other thing I'll say about the injury situation is
that the tackle right now, John, I don't know who
(30:54):
the Browns left tackle is on Sunday and I don't
know who the Browns right tackle is on Sunday. Other
than that, the tackle situation's in great shape. They hope
to have Conklin, who's been an All Pro before back.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Can he make it through the whole game?
Speaker 4 (31:08):
I don't know. Jedrick Willis is unlikely to play in
this game in my opinion. Again, you gave everybody the time,
and things can change. He's the Browns starting left tackle
and I think he'll probably be out, So you know,
it's going to be a little bit of a moving
target here figuring out who's going to be on opposite
end of the Browns offensive line. And I'm sure you've
been talking about this. I think Thibodeau and Burns are
(31:31):
keys for the Giants here. They've got to show up
and welcome to the season. Guys. It's time to get
some pressure on the quarterback because I think there's going
to be an opportunity for them to have a big
game against the Browns.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Which is why the Browns don't want to drop back
and throw the ball over thirty times a game. As
you talked about, Amari Cooper really strangely unproductive in his
first two games this year. Jerry Judy's been more so productive.
I believe it's the last time Amari Cooper are less
than twenty yards receiving in two straight games since the
last two games he played for the Raiders before you
trade to the Cowboys. Yeah, is he unhappy or is
(32:03):
this just the deal where it just happens to two
weird games in a row and there are no issues there.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Well, I think that the unhappy thing plays into this
because he didn't show up at the mandatory mini camp
because he was unhappy with his contract. He's in the
last year of his deal. And I think that if
Brandon Ayuk wanted to come to the Cleveland Browns, that
Amari Cooper would be a member of the San Francisco
forty nine ers and Ayuk would be on Cleveland. But Ayuk,
(32:34):
you know, I don't know what he was thinking. Is
he was navigating that whole charade for six weeks during
training camp. So I think Amari's human, and I think
all of this has affected him. I think the opportunity
to go play for San Francisco for him actually would
have been really cool. You know, it's a Super Bowl
contending team. The Browns are runs are good, but they're
(32:55):
probably a little bit less than that, And so I
think this all has just been a whirlwind. They got
some of the contract stuff figured out, give him a
little bit more guaranteed money. But John, it's not just
the lack of production. If you go back and watch,
he has dropped a touchdown pass in each of the
first two games, and so that is very un Amari
(33:17):
Cooper like. He is one of the most surehanded players
in the NFL. So I would expect that this is
just a little bump and then he'll play better as
the season goes on. But I do think that the
whole dynamic with him and the way the offseason went,
I can't help but assume that that's playing into his
production and the way he's played through the first two weeks.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
All right, two quick questions on the defense. You know,
Jim Schwartz, wide nine man to man defense, all that
stuff have you seen the Browns double other teams number
one dynamic wide receivers or they just play their mandeman
and trust a guy like Denzel Ward to cover. I'm
curious to see how teams start adjusting to the rather
large target share League Neighbors had in Week two.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Yes, and I would expect that the Browns will try
to take that away. Jim Schwartz is a Bill Belichick disciple,
and what did Bill do whenever he played, you know,
Giants ever play any big games against Bill Belichick? Take
away the thing that you do best. So I would
expect that the Browns are going to do that. I
(34:20):
also don't know John that you're going to see a
ton of Ward on Neighbors, because A it's a size
mismatch for the Giants, and B it is you know,
he's hampered with that injury that you brought up. So
I think MJ. Emerson is going to get the bulk
of that assignment. And don't think that that's necessarily good
(34:41):
news for the Giants, because I think that MJ is
one of the best young corners in the NFL and
can hold his own against Malikue Neighbors. But I think
the Browns are going to try to take the tact
on defense that they're going to try to make somebody
else beat them other than the stud rookie Wivers who's
getting eighteen targets a game or whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
All Right, just give me one thing or two things
hammer that people nationally haven't noticed or know about the
Browns that locally, you guys think is a much bigger
deal that maybe someone like me might not be locked
in and on a focus about that Giant fans should
be paying attention to on Sunday.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
They have really good special teams. They have one of
the best kickers and one of the best punters in
the league. They won in part last week because their
punter was so good. They won because the fifth their
kicker has made his last ten from fifty plus in
Dustin Hopkins. So I'd look out definitely for that. And
then I've been disappointed john in the Browns non Miles
(35:41):
Garrett pass rush so far this year. And I first
of all, I think that he's going to be over
Andrew Thomas for part of the game, and so I
think that's a great matchup to watch. And I also
think that you know, you brought up Zadarius Alex wright
Obo Kuronquo. Some of the guys that Browns are paying
big money on the inside need to arrive for the
(36:04):
season and the same way that Burns and Thibodeau do
for the Giants. And I think that this game is
going to be close. And my guess is that you
know what shows up here? Do Burns and Thibodeaux show
up or do the Browns interior and opposite Miles, Garrett
pass Rusher show up. I think that's a huge narrative
in this game.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Hammer, enjoy the game, man, I'll see you Sunday. Thank you,
great stuff from Goldhammer, great stuff from Vilma. The Giants
Little Podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the official
bank of the New York Giants. Citizens will donate seven
hundred and fifty bucks of the Giants Foundation for each
scoring drive during the twenty twenty four season. Learn more
at citizensbank dot com slash Giants. We thank our two guests,
really good information, more of a macro level and the
(36:45):
matchup stuff from Jonathan Vilma from Fox Sports. And again
they have the Call on Fox this weekend. Then Aaron
Goldhammer going inside the Cleveland Browns a little bit so
Giant Fans get a real feel for some of the
important details of this matchup that could determine the winner
on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Thanks for being with.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Us in the Giants Ittle Podcast. Everybody, We'll see you
next time.
It's time to get inside the Giants. Hunt's let's go.
Let's go Giants. Get my Giants, mob, give me some job.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Part of the Giants Podcast Network, Let's roll. Welcome to
another edition of the Giants Little Podcast, brought to you
by Citizens, the official bank of the New York Football Giants.
I am John Schmel, Great Giants Little Podcast coming for
you today. Jonathan Wilma will have the call on Fox
Sports of Giants and Browns on Sunday, also the Giants
in week one. He will join us first. Then we're
gonna have Aaron Goldhammer from ESPN Cleveland giving us a
(00:28):
little bit of an inside view of exactly what's going
on at the micro level with the Cleveland Browns. All right,
let's get right to it. Let's lead off with my
interview with Jonathan Vilma. And now we welcome in our
first guest. He's Jonathan Vilma, a former NFL linebacker and
of course he is the call of the game on
Fox one o'clock Sunday, Giants and Browns. All right, John,
you were the Giants in week one. I'm sure you've
(00:49):
watched the Week two game. Let's start on the positive side. First,
where do you see the most progress from the Giants
offense from Week one, where frankly was pretty much a disaster,
to Week two where they did a lot better.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, week one, as you mentioned, it was rough. I
say the two biggest things was were getting the ball
down the field, stretching defense. They didn't do that against
the Vikings. They did that last week against the Commanders.
And then Daniel Jones being more decisive with the football
(01:22):
with his decisions and whether it was a right throw
not a right throw, just get the ball out of
your hands, get it in play. I think those two
things were much improved. You could see the difference that
opened up the running game with Singletary, who by the way,
made some very great individual cuts, individual efforts. So I
(01:44):
think that having the threat of stretching the defense, knowing
that Daniel Jones is going to get the ball out quickly,
opening up the run game, that helped out for them
and they should be benefit them going on from Week
three through the rest of the season. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I want to fall up on a couple of those
because I think he makes some really good points. For Jones,
you mentioned being decisive, I thought his comfort and balance
in the pocket was much better. That allowed some better,
more accurate throws down the field. Do you think that's
a product of him just being more comfortable from his
first game back after the knee injury last year. Footwork
is something that they talked about, they worked on in
(02:20):
practice in between week one and week two. It just
looked like he was far more comfortable in that pocket
than he was in week number one.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, and I should mention that. Glad you brought it up. John.
He hadn't played football for what nine months, eight months,
nine months, whatever it is, right, So it's just not
expected or it's unreasonable to think in his first game
he was going to be as sharp as he was
when he was in his heyday right before he got injured.
(02:49):
So even if you're healthy physically mentally, you still got
to catch up, and it takes a game or two
or three sometimes to get that clock back to speed
mentally and get the timing down because practice is practice, right,
it's a control the environment. Once you get in the game,
it's completely different and you have to be able to
process faster. So I think he definitely, I should say
(03:13):
to the fans should not overreact over week one what
you see in week two I believe it's going to
be more of what you're going to see from Daniel
Jones moving forward.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
And maybe this is a weird question, but do you
think he almost has to get used to having better protection?
You did better, I mean you did giant games last year.
You know how poor the offensive line played. They give
up eighty five sacks.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
It was a mess.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
It was not good, and it almost seemed like in
Week one he was anticipating some of that pressure even
when it wasn't there. He ran into a couple of sacks.
Do you think as this offensive line continues to play
a little bit better, he's going to gain confidence in
that line and that's gonna make his mental processing back
there a little bit better because he's not feeling is rushed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, I would say that they're The first game was
a bit of mental gymnastics. So you got to give
credit to Brian Floores, defensive coordinator. There were a lot
of looks that you, frankly couldn't tell is he coming
or is he not coming? Right? And it looked the same.
Sometimes they drop guys out. Sometimes they rushed six guys.
(04:16):
So I think that if there were I couldn't pick
up a worse defense to go against in week one
for Daniel Jones and a new offensive line, right, So
I think that now moving forward, you don't get that confusion,
so to speak. And it's not that they were confused,
(04:37):
it's that the defense is hard to decipher. And now
you have an offensive line. Where as you said, they're
giving him time and I don't think he has to
get used to it. I think that he's going to
be able to go through his progressions more and then
when he has that comfort. Right, So, when you have
in week one, you know, eight guys on line of
(05:00):
scrimmage and it looks like a blaz in your head,
naturally you're gonna think, all right, if they do come,
I gotta get the ball out quickly. If they don't come,
or well, I still have to figure out where where
is my read. It wasn't so much for week two.
So I think that both the offensive line and Daniel Jones,
they were able to sit back and say, okay, it's
a four man rush. We know who to protect, we
(05:21):
know how to protect. Daniel Jones was comfortable knowing that
they're going to get the guys and then he had
time to throw Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
We too he got to that one backside deep out
on a going to the second read on the other
side of the field, and I had, frankly, Jonathan, going
back to the last year or so, I didn't remember
the last time he even had a time in the
pocket to make that type of long, deep field read,
get to the backside, make a strong throw, step into it,
and not get hit after he made the throw. And
I thought that play, specifically against the Commanders, was one
(05:50):
that jumped out of me like, all right, wow, if
they can figure this out, I see some pieces here
that can.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Make this work. Yeah, one hundred percent agree. And going
back to your question about come for that is the
example of comfort. Right, He's he's back there and he's
able to go read one, read, two, red three all
the way to the backside, sit in and make a
throw right. So that is and it's encouraging. Frankly, right,
I know that unfortunately the Giants are owing two, but
(06:18):
if I'm a fan I'm watching the game, you want
to see your team doing this, And unfortunately the wins
may or may not come with it. But as long
as your team is doing this, they will eventually get
on a three game game, four game five game win
streak if they're doing the right things. You mentioned the
deep shots.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
They didn't connect on those deep shots against Washington, But
I want to I want to make your perspective as
a defensive player though. Yea and Johnathan Cacio so I
know you're very close to I do the peering post
game with them. He always talks about this, John, I
don't care if they complete them. They just gotta take them.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Take those shots.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
What does that do to a defense when you see
the offense is willing to take those shots down the field.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah, So what it does mentally? First, mentally, it tell
the safeties. It tells the corners we got to back up.
We gotta stay honest. Right, So you get a lot
of safeties, a lot of corners. If you don't threaten
them deep, they get flat footed. They break up on
all your routes. And that it's not just a passing
(07:15):
game that affects. It's the run game as well, because
now you're safetyes again flat footed, and they're ready to
break up on the run. So if you never threaten
the defense deep, you're gonna have these safeties that they're
lining up at eight all of a sudden, they're filling
the gaps at three yards four yards as opposed to
I have to take two steps back just in case
(07:37):
he throws a deep ball. And then now when they
fill in for the run game, that's at five six yards, right,
So that big difference is a first down you get
five yards, second down you get five yards. That's another
first down as opposed to safeties fill up first down
three yards, second down three yards. Now you're facing a
third and short. So that's the importance mentally for having
(08:01):
the deep ball. And then physically you don't You don't
have to connect on all of them. You just got
to connect on one, right, That's all you really need, right,
you just need to have one sixty yar bomb and
all of a sudden, everyone's like whoa, whoahoa, Okay, all right,
let's let's scratch that defense. Let's figure out what we're
gonna do, et cetera. Right, So, uh, the whole thing
(08:22):
is always about if you're gonna take the shots, make
sure they're calculated, and then try to connect on the
shots you take, And as long as you're continuing to
do that and stretch the defense, you're going to keep
them hones. And it opens up the run game.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
What do you think about Molik Neighbors Part one of
the question, Part two the question what kind of impacts
someilar the deep balls? I think in some ways having
a guy like that on your offense, how does that
impact the defense and how they're game planning against you.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah, Molik Neighbors the best thing that I've seen about him.
His best skill set is high pointing the ball, making
those contested catches, And that is very important because you
can now have confidence in a wide receiver versus man
coverage that you can throw the fifty to fifty ball
(09:11):
and more than likely he will go up and get it.
And that's always scary for a defense for the cornerbacks. Right,
you can be in great coverage, all of a sudden
he out jumps you, he gets the ball and into
twenty yard completion. So I think that is an element
that the Giants didn't have prior to Neighbors. Now that
(09:32):
they have that element, I'm not saying defenses are going
to rejigger their scheme just yet, but you have the
ability or if you're Daniel Jones, the luxury of saying, okay,
nothing's open. I know if I throw this ball to neighbors.
It's a high likelihood he's going to go up and
get it. So I love that skill set about him.
And again, this is a rookie we're talking about. He's
(09:56):
having to figure out not only press man and best
corner going against them, but what coverages are throwing against him,
adjusting his routes based on the coverage. Being in single
with Daniel Jones, So there's a lot on his plate.
There's a lot of expectation. I would temper those expectations
and just continue to be happy with the process and
(10:17):
watch them developed.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, and no need him against the press man that
the Browns are going to play this week, and we'll
touch on that a little bit later. We talked about
the offensive line real quickly in pass protection. I thought
the run game they were really good. They saw a
lot of soft boxes, They ran a lot of that
duo stuff, and you mentioned singletary he made. He turned
a bunch of six yard runs into like fifteen yard
runs in that game, which is what you want out
of a running back. Would you think of the Giants
(10:39):
running game after again, we saw it in Week one.
They were getting the light boxes versus the vikings too.
They couldn't take advantage of it, but they could in
week two.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, the first thing is, which is very important, Daniel
Jones actually started running the football and that keeps the
defense honest. When you now have the zone read, they're
not anticipating Singletary getting the ball and now you have
Daniel Jones who can take it out the back end.
So it goes back to keeping a defense honest. That
(11:07):
defensive end or outside linebacker or safety, now they cannot
fall back as quickly. And because they couldn't fall back
as quickly, that's what opened up the holes for Singletary.
And as you mentioned, he made that extra guy miss,
that one guy miss and get the big games. So
it was encouraging to see that. What was also encouraging
(11:28):
was to see that each offensive lineman at some point
was able to handle their own one on one block.
They didn't have to need the combo up, you know,
the chip combo up to the second level. And so
that's also something that you can take the rest of
the season, right and so, and again we should also
(11:49):
mention the Commanders D line is not too bad. They're
pretty good defensive front. So you look at this game
coming up Browns have a good defensive front as well.
They obviously have Miles Garrett. But you know that the
offensive line is capable of holding the one on one
blocks sustaining it. You know that Daniel Jones is capable
(12:09):
of taking it out the back end on a zone read.
It's not like he's going to score. But again, keeping
the defense hoes and as long as you can hold
up to those principles, it should be a good day
for the Giants. All right.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Now, let's go to the not so good, the defensive
side of the ball. And like I mentioned, I did
the postgame show with Jonathan can See as I watched
the game with him. As the Giants get gouge in
the running game, he still takes it personally now it
drives him nuts as a linebacker. He hates seeing teams
run the football. I'm sure you're the same exact way
when you watch the Giants run defense. Frankly, the first
two weeks it wasn't very good against the Vikings with
the commanders. What's going wrong there? And how do they
(12:43):
fix it?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
What's going wrong? Tackling is what's going wrong? How do
they fix it? You spend time in practice doing tackling drills.
What we used to do with the Saints. We would
if we had a padded practice day, we would make
sure that we stopped the scout team's offensive players stop
(13:05):
his momentum. So what does that do? That forces you
to wrap them up, run your feet, stop his momentum,
and then let him keep running right finish the play.
And those little things helped out in the game because
it was one programming us to now react accordingly. You tackle,
you run your feet, you stop their momentum. The second
(13:28):
was that it gets your angles down right. So a
lot of poor tackling comes from a poor angle. Sometimes
you know, you don't wrap up, et cetera. But a
lot of it is just that your timing is off,
your angles are off. And so in practice we made
an emphasis on doing that so we could be a
good tackling team. Because it's one thing. If someone's gonna
(13:48):
missattackle of course that always happens. The problem comes where
you have one player missa tackle, then you have two
or three other guys rallying, and then they took poor
angles and now they miss tackles as well. They're just
like arm tackling and stuff like that. So that's the
biggest thing that I saw. Fortunately, it's very easy to correct.
(14:09):
You just got to put an emphasis on it, and
then you have guys that want to do it right.
Okaya k he's been a tackling machine for years, so
we know that he's capable. McFadden same thing, right, So
defensive line, we know that they can do it. So
as I would say, it's encouraging in the sense of
it's not you know, fire sale where you have to
(14:30):
revamp your whole scheme. It's just a matter of putting
emphasis on tackling. Now.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
In terms of the past defense, I believe it's the
first time in Giant's history that they've allowed quarterbacks in
the first two games of the year to complete I
think it's seventy eight percent of their passes or something
like that. There's been a lot of easy throws, and
they also give up some third and longs. Against the Commanders,
you have two third and thirteen's on the same drive.
I know the Giants player zone heavy ski scheme, Jonathan,
(14:55):
but is there a way to even if you're keeping
things in front of you, to be more aggressive where
you're not giving up so many of those easy passes
and then frankly just getting your depth right to not
allow some of those starn and long conversions.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yes, So the short answer is, yes, you can be
more aggressive, can be more aggressive and not allowed for
completions up and down the field. I would say it's
a little harder to kind of dissect it because I
don't know if shame Bowen is teaching them right. So
(15:28):
Shame Bowen may be telling them, err on the conservative side,
and so you don't want to double move, And if
you don't want to double move, that means you're more
than likely going to be late reacting to the throws
right the pitch and catch, and so he could be
saying that. He could also be saying, hey, look, I
don't care what they do between the twenties right, as
(15:51):
long as when they get inside the twenty they don't score,
which was great to see against the Commanders right, seven
field goals zero for six for the Commander's offense in
the red zone. So those things, I don't know if
it's schematic, I don't know if it's a philosophy thing
with Shane Bowen. I would say the other part to
(16:11):
it is the tackle, right, it goes, it goes back
to that, right, So if you have a catch in
front of you for eight yards, well, don't let them
fall forward for another three that's a first down. Right,
If you have a catch in front of you for
six yards, don't let them fall forward and make it
third and short or second and short. So you know,
a lot of those things can be corrected. And I
(16:33):
mentioned it because that's what I saw on film. You
get a guy, they wrap him up, but all of
a sudden he's able to stretch forward, lean forward, wiggle
out of a tackle, and you're saying, oh man, the
defense is bad. No, the scheme was fine. They're where
they're supposed to be. The issue is that they didn't
execute the tackling portion of it, which is what's giving
up the big plays.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, and that happened in a couple of those Jade
and Daniel scrambles. Isaiah Simmons missed the tackle on the
right side. That happened a couple of times over the
course of that game. All right, let's talk about the
match up real quick here before we say goodbye. Jonathan
Browns leaned into a lot of extra offensive line stuff
last week. Six offensive linemen, seven offensive linemen on the
field sometimes, are you almost having a flashback to your
playing days when when you start in the league, all
(17:13):
these teams are running cover two And the answer a
lot of teams seem to have you have now is like,
all right, well, we're just gonna pound you. Now, we're
gonna go big and we're gonna pound your two safeties
deep and kind of attack you that way. Is that
how you see more teams and how you saw the
Browns kind of try to work their offense a little
bit last week.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought it up. It's it's
just funny how the NFL works, right.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's all cycle, dude, Everything comes back.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Everything comes back. Right. So everyone was with the big linemen,
big backers, you know, big safety, stop the run, stop
the run. All of a sudden, we said, the offense
is said, fine, will spread you out, and you know,
we'll pass the game. We'll use the passing game and
be pass happy. And then now defenses they've caught up
to the passing game. You know, Safeties are a little smaller, quicker,
(18:00):
they frankly, some of them can play corner. Right back
in the day, they definitely could have played corner. Same
thing with the corners able to move great speed, and
so you have backers now that are smaller, they're really
good in space, and so everyone has forgotten about how
to fit up the run game, and so the offenses
are now going back to it. And like you said,
I saw it with the Pats game. I called the
(18:22):
Pats game last week. They were going jumbo right, bringing
in that big offensive tackle. And so what I see
happening is the offenses are trying to give you personnel mismatches,
and they're trying to do it in game and then
keep you stuck in that personnel so that they can
continue to run, ground and pound until then you finally
(18:44):
decide to go big and then they open it back
up on you. So I like the chess match that's
going on. I do see it coming around the league
a lot. I think that it's again natural. I don't
even know what you call it, right, It's just the
progression I should say for the NFL for the offenses
where the defense is finally caught up to the passing game. Now,
(19:07):
let's go back to the running game.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
You're ready for a change. Pay Day comes early with citizens,
So go to that retreat new you moves to the country.
Now you're raising goats and launching a lifestyle brand. Are
you ready for all that life breaks?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah? I think it's funny how everything does, in fact
always come back. How would you attack this Brown's defense?
You know they are not you know, kind of in
vogue NFL defense where it's you know, two safeties deep.
It's cool, it's cover two, it's cover four, it's cover six.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
They run a ton of man demand.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
You know, they're gonna get in your face in that
canna allow any easy completion. So if you're the giants,
how do you attack this defense when you come out
on Sunday afternoon?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, if you're the giants, any of these very aggressive
pressman teams, you attack them with their eyes, with misdirection,
with slip screens. So if you're neighbor, If I'm neighbors
and I'm the offense, I'm gonna make sure I put
him in motion. I'm gonna make sure that he's the
third man in a bunch formation. If I'm singletary, I'm
(20:11):
gonna figure out ways to get him again. Those slip screens,
some screens out the backfield, get some screens to neighbors, right,
he's good with the ball Wandelle Robinson very good with
the ball in his hands as well. And so what
you're doing is you're trying to tire out the defense laterally,
you just get him running latterly, get them running, keep
them running, and then all of a sudden you take
those timely shots over the top. And it doesn't always
(20:34):
have to be a design play. It could just be
one where I said, you're testing them right, keep those
those safeties honest. And if you can get the defensive
line running latterally instead of running at your quarterback, you
do that four or five times, sustain drives, you're gonna
find that the defense, like any other defense, they start
(20:54):
to get tired, they don't get off blocks as quickly,
and then that opens up the run game. So defense
is like that. Yeah, I'm a big fan of boots
rolling out the zone. Lead is gonna be great, especially
with Daniel Jones being able to run the football and
then the slip screens and then trying to hit them
over the top. Great.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
All right, two more questions I like to ask defensive
players about great players on that side of the ball.
Miles garretson Freakschelle right, he's to seventy, moves like a
guy that's two fifty. When you watch that guy, does
he remind you of anyone that you played with or
played against when you were in the league, or and
then what just makes him so awesome?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, Miles Garrett, he is one of one. He is rare,
very very rare talent wise, generational talent. You already hit
it on the head. He's two seventy. He moves like
he's two fifty. He bends like he's a safety a corner.
(21:52):
It is ridiculous. I've never seen him more than like
three feet off the ground. So he gets in that
tracks dants. He never raises up. You get a lot
of guys that get in the track stance, they fire
off for like two steps, but then they raise up
and they're they're you know, six foot seven again, and
all of a sudden, offensive offics can get them. He
is not like that man. He gets under everybody can bend.
(22:15):
I mean it is to be honest, I'm a fan
watching him right and I know I have to be
unbiased on Sunday, but I just love watching great players.
He is a great player, great athlete, great motor. I
mean they always talk about outworking your opponent and all
that stuff. There's there's nothing you can do against a
(22:36):
guy who's more athletic than you and works just as
hard as you, right, like that, what are you gonna do? Right?
You need help? So you know, so you know watching
him that that's what I see. Right, He makes you
pay if you if you ever disrespect him by leaving
him one on one with an offensive tackle for more
than three seconds, he makes you pay. And that's what
(22:58):
great players do.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, And it's basically the same thing with Dexter Lawrence, right,
Like he can't block that dude one on one.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
He's just bigger and more athletic than you. Yeah, And
you know what, I remember interviewing Dexter Lawrence last year
when he really started to come on, and I remember
asking him because the years prior he was really good,
but he wasn't. Now, you know, the best defensive tackle,
if not one of the best. And it goes back
to working hard. He said he kind of changed a
(23:26):
couple of things that he was doing in his preparation.
He was changing the way he ate his what he
was doing off the field as far as getting ready
for games, and that was it right because he was
already super athletic, super talented. This guy's three hundred and
fifty pounds runs with the best of them, as powerful
as any defensive tackle I've seen. And then all of
(23:46):
a sudden, he now has a work ethic behind it. Again,
I just get to sit back and watch right and
get to enjoy it. Feel bad for the offensive linement,
but he's a talent.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, no question. In the final question you liked to
you had to check match with quarterbacks and you were
a player as a minna linebacker. Right, you go back
and forth and watch him, And this is probably a
more complicated topic than we can cover here in our
in our final thirty seconds, But what's going on with
the Shawn Watson? Like he used to he was a
great quarterback man, like he led the league in passing yards,
and now he just doesn't look like the same guy
(24:18):
when you watch him. What's going on with the Shawn Watson?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Right now? What I see is a quarterback that is
still trying to figure out figure it out with his
wide receivers and his tight ends. It looks like it's
not about being on the same page. It's about trust,
and right now he doesn't have the trust to just one, two, three,
throw it, throw it to a spot and trust that
(24:45):
his man is going to get there. And I reference
my days with Drew Brees, him and Marcus Colston. It
was like Drew Brees could throw with his eyes closed
to the spot. He knew Marcus Colston was going to
get there right and it didn't matter what pressure was
in this face, it didn't matter what coverage. He just
trusted and knew it was gonna happen. And so when
(25:05):
you have that kind of trust, camaraderie with your with
your skill guys, it just makes for a very smooth,
efficient offense. And it's just not there yet. It'll I
don't know how long it'll take. You know, it's a
work in progress. He did play better in week two,
so that that's what I'm seeing, and the more I
guess time on tasks that they have together, they'll eventually
(25:27):
gain that trust.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Jonathan, this was great. Have an awesome call with our
with our guy Kitty Albert in week number three Giants
and Browns at one o'clock. Thanks so much of the time, man,
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Oh thanks Jean, take care, you love turf.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
You're good at it. So you start a turf fizz
business grows, your savings grow, become the most celebrated name
in turf. Are you ready for all that life brings?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
That's Jonathan Bilma.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Great stuff out of him, and don't forget the Johns.
Total podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the official
bank of the Giants. From game day celebrations to your
everyday financial needs, Big Blue fans can get the most
out of every moment with Citizens. Learn more at citizens
bank dot com slash Giants. Now let's turn off our
attention to a closer look at the Cleveland Browns. Aaron
Goldhammer those morning radio Drive time in Cleveland for ESPN
(26:17):
Radio Cleveland. Here's my conversation with him. All right, that's
Jonathan Vilma. Now we welcome in Aaron Goldhammer ESPN Cleveland
Morning Drive, the really big show. Hamm a time.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
What's going on, buddy? How are you? Oh Schvelke.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
We've got a couple teams here that both need a win.
So I'm interested to see how this is gonna go
on Sunday because I have a feeling it's not gonna
be as easy for the Browns as all the prognosticators
in Vegas things.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, So we just talked to Jonathan Vilma and I'll
get to the Browns injury report in a second, But
the last thing I asked him about was Deshaun Watson.
I asked him, from your perspective as a guy that
it's a game plan for quarterbacks your whole career as
a linebacker, what's wrong with Sehaan Watson? And he said
he does not see the trust in the receiver to
throw with anticipation was a big thing he talked about. Obviously,
(27:04):
you've been in the murk and the mud and the
grind with this for a few years. The hew, So
I'll ask you the same question from your perspective, what's
wrong with the Sean Watson.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
We debated all off season John whether his problems were
his shoulder like physical or above the shoulders, which means
that something mentally is going on with him. And I
agree with Vilma that I think it is a psychological problem.
I think the guy has all the physical gifts that
he had when he was dominating at Clemson and when
he was kicking butt with the Houston Texans, But the
(27:36):
problem is I think that he does not have any
trust and swagger in himself. I think a lot of
that has been lost. And so here's what I think
the Browns have realized going through Week one against the Cowboys,
when they got dominated. In Week two when it was
ugly and slappy, but they played better against the Jaguars.
They need to treat Deshaun Watson like he's a rookie.
(28:00):
And I know that's wild for a guy who's making
two hundred and thirty million dollars in a contract and
is supposed to be a top five quarterback. They they
don't want to throw the ball fifty five times a game. Okay,
does any of this sound familiar to Giants fans and
what's going on with the Giant. They need to treat
him like they don't have Patrick Mahomes back there, and
(28:24):
so they need the lead. They need to run the ball.
They came out and played as much jumbo formation in
that Jacksonville game as I've ever seen in my life.
They played seven offensive linemen on like twenty five percent
of the snaps because they knew they were gonna have
trouble protecting and because they knew they had a deficiency
at quarterback and until Deshaun can slowly brick by Brick
(28:48):
rebuild himself into the quarterback that he was. I think
there are four rookie quarterbacks starting on Sunday, Okay in
the NFL. Jaden Daniels is one, Caleb Williams is Won
Bonnet in Denver, and Deshaun Watson in Cleveland. I think
that's the way the Browns have to look.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
At it well.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
And not a bad week to run the ball, given
the Giants gave up more than two hundred yards last
week to the Commanders, I expect it'll be a heavy
dose before you get more to the brown stuff. Hammer.
Just so fans that we're recording this at around to
ten on Thursday, so injury stuff might change. I went
to the Browns injury report yesterday. I counted approximately two
thousand players on the injury report. Uh, which one of
(29:26):
these guys should we take seriously as to who might
not play? Because there's some big names on here, like
Miles Garrett's a Darius Smith, Denzel Ward, Jedrick Wills, Jerry
Judy David and Jokudwan Jones. Like Miles Garrett, there's a
lot of guys Martin Emerson that are on this list,
who's who you think is realistic and who's not.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
You mentioned Miles twice, and you should mention him like
three more times because he's He's the most important guy
that's on that list. John And I think he's gonna play,
but I think he's gonna be a little limited. I
don't think he's one hundred percent. I think the foot
injury is real. I think it plays into the way
and the number of snaps that he played in Jacksonville.
And I think he'll play, but I don't know that
(30:06):
he'll be out there on every play. I wouldn't expect that.
Denzel Ward was on a pitch count last week, also
against Jacksonville. And I think the Browns have to approach
this smartly. I mean, on the one hand, they know
they don't want to take the Giants lightly, But on
the other hand, they've got a couple winnable games here
that aren't exactly against division opponents and aren't exactly in conference,
(30:30):
So I think they'll be more careful with guys. Not
that they think the win against New York is automatic,
but just if you're gonna have Miles Garrett for the
whole game, would you rather pick the Giant game or
would you rather pick the Ravens or the Bengals, And
they got to keep him healthy for fifteen more weeks.
The other thing I'll say about the injury situation is
that the tackle right now, John, I don't know who
(30:54):
the Browns left tackle is on Sunday and I don't
know who the Browns right tackle is on Sunday. Other
than that, the tackle situation's in great shape. They hope
to have Conklin, who's been an All Pro before back.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Can he make it through the whole game?
Speaker 4 (31:08):
I don't know. Jedrick Willis is unlikely to play in
this game in my opinion. Again, you gave everybody the time,
and things can change. He's the Browns starting left tackle
and I think he'll probably be out, So you know,
it's going to be a little bit of a moving
target here figuring out who's going to be on opposite
end of the Browns offensive line. And I'm sure you've
been talking about this. I think Thibodeau and Burns are
(31:31):
keys for the Giants here. They've got to show up
and welcome to the season. Guys. It's time to get
some pressure on the quarterback because I think there's going
to be an opportunity for them to have a big
game against the Browns.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Which is why the Browns don't want to drop back
and throw the ball over thirty times a game. As
you talked about, Amari Cooper really strangely unproductive in his
first two games this year. Jerry Judy's been more so productive.
I believe it's the last time Amari Cooper are less
than twenty yards receiving in two straight games since the
last two games he played for the Raiders before you
trade to the Cowboys. Yeah, is he unhappy or is
(32:03):
this just the deal where it just happens to two
weird games in a row and there are no issues there.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Well, I think that the unhappy thing plays into this
because he didn't show up at the mandatory mini camp
because he was unhappy with his contract. He's in the
last year of his deal. And I think that if
Brandon Ayuk wanted to come to the Cleveland Browns, that
Amari Cooper would be a member of the San Francisco
forty nine ers and Ayuk would be on Cleveland. But Ayuk,
(32:34):
you know, I don't know what he was thinking. Is
he was navigating that whole charade for six weeks during
training camp. So I think Amari's human, and I think
all of this has affected him. I think the opportunity
to go play for San Francisco for him actually would
have been really cool. You know, it's a Super Bowl
contending team. The Browns are runs are good, but they're
(32:55):
probably a little bit less than that, And so I
think this all has just been a whirlwind. They got
some of the contract stuff figured out, give him a
little bit more guaranteed money. But John, it's not just
the lack of production. If you go back and watch,
he has dropped a touchdown pass in each of the
first two games, and so that is very un Amari
(33:17):
Cooper like. He is one of the most surehanded players
in the NFL. So I would expect that this is
just a little bump and then he'll play better as
the season goes on. But I do think that the
whole dynamic with him and the way the offseason went,
I can't help but assume that that's playing into his
production and the way he's played through the first two weeks.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
All right, two quick questions on the defense. You know,
Jim Schwartz, wide nine man to man defense, all that
stuff have you seen the Browns double other teams number
one dynamic wide receivers or they just play their mandeman
and trust a guy like Denzel Ward to cover. I'm
curious to see how teams start adjusting to the rather
large target share League Neighbors had in Week two.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Yes, and I would expect that the Browns will try
to take that away. Jim Schwartz is a Bill Belichick disciple,
and what did Bill do whenever he played, you know,
Giants ever play any big games against Bill Belichick? Take
away the thing that you do best. So I would
expect that the Browns are going to do that. I
(34:20):
also don't know John that you're going to see a
ton of Ward on Neighbors, because A it's a size
mismatch for the Giants, and B it is you know,
he's hampered with that injury that you brought up. So
I think MJ. Emerson is going to get the bulk
of that assignment. And don't think that that's necessarily good
(34:41):
news for the Giants, because I think that MJ is
one of the best young corners in the NFL and
can hold his own against Malikue Neighbors. But I think
the Browns are going to try to take the tact
on defense that they're going to try to make somebody
else beat them other than the stud rookie Wivers who's
getting eighteen targets a game or whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
All Right, just give me one thing or two things
hammer that people nationally haven't noticed or know about the
Browns that locally, you guys think is a much bigger
deal that maybe someone like me might not be locked
in and on a focus about that Giant fans should
be paying attention to on Sunday.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
They have really good special teams. They have one of
the best kickers and one of the best punters in
the league. They won in part last week because their
punter was so good. They won because the fifth their
kicker has made his last ten from fifty plus in
Dustin Hopkins. So I'd look out definitely for that. And
then I've been disappointed john in the Browns non Miles
(35:41):
Garrett pass rush so far this year. And I first
of all, I think that he's going to be over
Andrew Thomas for part of the game, and so I
think that's a great matchup to watch. And I also
think that you know, you brought up Zadarius Alex wright
Obo Kuronquo. Some of the guys that Browns are paying
big money on the inside need to arrive for the
(36:04):
season and the same way that Burns and Thibodeau do
for the Giants. And I think that this game is
going to be close. And my guess is that you
know what shows up here? Do Burns and Thibodeaux show
up or do the Browns interior and opposite Miles, Garrett
pass Rusher show up. I think that's a huge narrative
in this game.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Hammer, enjoy the game, man, I'll see you Sunday. Thank you,
great stuff from Goldhammer, great stuff from Vilma. The Giants
Little Podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the official
bank of the New York Giants. Citizens will donate seven
hundred and fifty bucks of the Giants Foundation for each
scoring drive during the twenty twenty four season. Learn more
at citizensbank dot com slash Giants. We thank our two guests,
really good information, more of a macro level and the
(36:45):
matchup stuff from Jonathan Vilma from Fox Sports. And again
they have the Call on Fox this weekend. Then Aaron
Goldhammer going inside the Cleveland Browns a little bit so
Giant Fans get a real feel for some of the
important details of this matchup that could determine the winner
on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Thanks for being with.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Us in the Giants Ittle Podcast. Everybody, We'll see you
next time.
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