March 2, 2025 • 30 mins
The Combine Conversations series concludes on the final day of the 2025 NFL Combine with The Athletic’s NFL Draft analyst Dane Brugler and ESPN’s Matt Miller. Brugler joins Matt Taylor and Jeffrey Gorman on Radio Row at the Combine to discuss the strong depth of tight ends in this draft class and which players could be options for the Colts with the 14th overall pick. Miller then sits down with Matt Taylor and Casey Vallier to break down the Colts' biggest needs and explain why the secondary depth in this year’s draft is surprisingly thin.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is the final installment of the Combine Conversation podcast
series here on the Colts Audio Network.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Thanks for tuning in and.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Matt Taylor and all week long we were set
up on Radio Row at the twenty twenty five NFL
Combine gathering great interviews and getting perspectives from some of
the biggest names that cover the NFL and the NFL Draft.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And today we have two more top dogs for you
to hear from.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Dane Brugler is the NFL Draft analyst from The Athletic
and one of the most respected and hardest working NFL
draftnicks in the business, and the same could be said
for Matt Miller, who covers the NFL Draft for ESPN
and ESPN dot Com. So myself and Jeffrey Gorman chatted
with Brugler at the Combine earlier this week, and Casey
Valier also joined me for a sit down with Miller
(00:50):
on Radio Row as well, and they both chatted with
us regarding the biggest positional groups of need for the Colts,
the top prospects who could still be on the board
when the Colts drafted fourteenth overall, and why this draft
is unique in that it's gonna bolster a lot of
teams in the trenches on both sides of the line
of scrimmage.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So let's get it going.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
We begin with Dane Brugler from the Athletic, who's always
gracious with this time at the NFL Combine.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
We're here at the twenty twenty five NFL Combine downtown Indianapolis.
Time to find out about some prospects and what's going
on in the upcoming draft after this combine.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
We do that.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
From the Athletic, Dane Brugler covers the NFL and specifically
this NFL draft. Let's look at the thirty two picks,
the thirty two teams, if you will. I love asking
experts like you, how many real true first rounders do
you think are in this year's draft.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
I think it's it's not a high number. I think
it's more like a dozen. Really twelve, Yeah, I mean
it's and every team's going to differ a little bit
on that, but true blue chip, all right, these are
first round guys. I think most years you have, you know, eighteen,
maybe a few more. This year, I think it's the
number smaller, so I think it's closer to a dozen.
(02:01):
But like I said, I think teams might differ a
little bit, but I don't think it's gonna be very
high for most teams.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Daining this offense in Indianapolis. Obviously it starts at the
quarterback position with any offense, but last year not a
lot of productivity out of the tight end room. And
you have said in the past, in the last couple
of days, just reading what you've been following, is this
tight end group that's coming out flow it's a big one.
How many first rounders do you see for starters.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Tyler Warren from Penn State and Colson Lovelan from Michigan.
I think, and I don't even think it's a debate
about who's tight end one. It's just a preference. If
you want the upside guy, Colson Lovelan is for you.
I mean, he's a little more of a hybrid tight
end where you're gonna line him up out wide, you're
gonna put him a slot, You're gonna do these different
things with him. You know, think about how the Raiders
(02:44):
used brock Bowers last year. You know you're gonna be
creative with how you use the athleticism in the past
catching skills that Colson Lovelin has offer. Tyler Warren's more
of He's not a true, you know, a wide tight end,
but he's more of that prototypical hand.
Speaker 6 (02:59):
In the ground, inline guy.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
And I don't want to make it sound like he's
not a good athlete, because he is. He's two hundred
and fifty five pounds. He should run in the four sixes.
He should test really well. And you know, being a
former quarterback, he just he has such a natural feel
for the passing game and you know, he's not going
to create a ton of separation, but he wins the
catch point. And I love the physicality that he plays
(03:23):
with him It's in his blood. His dad was a
safety at Richmond and nicknamed the Hitman. Like it's in
his blood that he likes to play physical. And so
the argument to not draft one of those guys is
because second round, third round, there's yeah, you know, I'm
a big fan of you know, whether it's Taylor from
LSU or Royo from Miami. I really like Gunner Helm
from Texas. I think he'd be a perfect cult second
(03:45):
round pick if they went a different direction in the
first round. So if they want to come away from
this draft of the tight end, They're gonna have plenty
of options.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What about the concept of drafting a tight end of
the first round as it relates to grades of other positions, right,
is it a better idea to draft either of those
two guys Lovelin or Tyler Warren or the second or
third best defensive tackle, if you will.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
And that's where, Yeah, we're getting into philosophy of drafting,
and there's so many different ways of looking at it.
You know, like we're talking a lot about running backs
and like how early do you draft a running back?
It's a similar thing with tight end. I think for
some the makeup of the roster. For some teams, it
won't make as much sense to invest a first round
pick in that position.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
But I think for a.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Team like the Colts, where you need to figure out
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Quarterbacks trying to support that position exactly.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
You need and it's something where you don't want to
make a draft pick just for twenty twenty five. Yeah,
but you know that has to factor in a little bit.
You know, you understanding, Okay, what's Anthony Richardson? Is he
the future? How are we gonna help him take that
next step as a quarterback? So I think for a
team like the Colts, it makes sense to invest in
that position.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
Early if the pick is worth it.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
And like I said, maybe let's just say the Colts
have twelve first round grade. I think there's a good
chance those two tight ends could be two of those
first round grades, And if one of them is available
at fourteen, I think it becomes a lot easier because
he might be the only four or first round grade
still left on the board at that point.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Which of those guys has a better chance to be
there at fourteen in the middle of the draft.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Yeah, it's tough to say, because I think that teams
are kind of split on you know. I do think
Tyler Warren's probably just because we've seen him do it
more where Colston Levelin has been banged up. I just
saw him at the podium his arms still in a sling,
you know, as he works his way back from that
shoulder injury. There's no doubt Colston Leveland has the more upside.
But for a team like the Colts, and for a
(05:37):
lot of these other teams drafting a guy that just
have a better idea of who he is, you know
what you can do with him, especially from day one
because it's he's ready to mete out of the box,
no batteries required, you know, he just opened the box assembly.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
With him exactly.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
So yeah, I think that if I was a betting man,
I'd say Tyler Warren's probably the favorite to be the
first tight end drafted, but wouldn't be surprised at all
if Loveland ends up going first.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
You know, despite the collective results on the defensive side
of the ball, the Colts feel like they're close. They've
got some playmakers and all three levels of the defense.
Lou Ana Rumo's there now is the defensive coordinator. What
do you peg as the biggest defensive need or biggest
defensive tweak the Colts can make by drafting a guy
high in this draft, whether that's first round or Day two.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, I think, you know, looking at the secondary, I
think corner or safety. I think we could see them
make a splash, and relative to most years, I don't
think it's the deepest cornerback group. Usually there's so many
athletes at receiver and corner that we have just a
high volume of those guys.
Speaker 6 (06:39):
This year, it's kind of the opposite.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
Where receivers not super deep corners, okay, but not to
the level of we've seen in some past years. A
guy that you know, thinking about day two, Shavon Ravel
from East Carolina. I love that fit with I mean,
first of all, size, length, speed. Unfortunately won't be able
to show it here because of the ACL. I actually
(07:02):
have a feature on The Athletic that just posted today
about Chavon's story, and it's just tremendous.
Speaker 6 (07:08):
He was in a.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Bad car accident in high school, worked his way back
from that Amazon. It worked at Amazon, that's right, because
he didn't have the grades, and he takes accountability. He said,
I didn't work hard enough in high school and I
was all about ball and I didn't work hard enough
of my grades. So he goes to Juco and then
Covid knocks out the season and so he's, you know,
in order to stay busy, make ends meet, gets a
(07:30):
job at Amazon whether his dad was working, but he
still stayed true to the dream and his dad signed
them up for an ECU East Carolina prospect camp. And
so after Chavon worked a he was like a six
pm to four am shift, so ten hour overnight shift,
(07:51):
and then he waited in the car for his dad
to finish his shift, went home in ad breakfast, and
then they drove to Greenville for the camp and he
ran a four to four to zero flat thirty nine
inch for eleven the broad and the into Chavon's dad
and he said, because he was standing sitting in the
bleachers watching, he said, after he ran the forty, the coach,
there was a coach that just ran down to kind
of just show him the time. And you know, he
(08:12):
was jacked up, and they told him, you know, go
back to Juco, get your GPA up to I think
got two point six.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
And he did it.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
He did his part of the bargain and he had
a breakout twenty twenty three season. And you know, another reminder,
life's not fair. I mean he Alabama wanted him, LSU
wanted him. He they were well into six figures. I
mean we're talking almost half a million dollars. He stayed
loyal to ECU and had the ACL three weeks into
the year and it's just like that's that's brutal. And
(08:40):
so but if you know, teams, when they talk to players,
they want to know what adversities have you had to face?
Chavn's face at all, there's no doubt he has got
the mental toughness to do it. And when you factor
in the size, the length of speed, Yeah, I think
somewhere on somewhere in the second round a team's going
to get a first round player who has a discount
sticker on him.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
But I think it'll work out pretty well.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
We'll keep our eye on that young man. I wanted
to ask you about who you're excited about watch test
out here, whether it's physical specimen, whether it's length, whether
it's how high they jump, whatever. Who are some of
the guys that you're saying, Hey, obviously they're going to
affect their wallet a little bit the way that they
perform out here on the turf.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
Nick Emman, worry the safety from South Carolina can't wait
for that. I mean, he's legit six two and a
half two hundred and twenty five pounds and he can fly.
The jump should be tremendous, should be over forty inches
fifteen guy, we'll see. I think you know, because teams
have to understand, Okay, what is he? Is he a safety? Linebacker? Hybrid?
Speaker 6 (09:40):
Is he Can we play him as a post?
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Can we play him as a single high like they
have to figure out what's the best spot for him. So, like,
the traits are phenomenal, but understanding how does that translate
to the field. That's kind of like where teams are
stuck right now, trying to figure that part out. But
the talent says the first round pick, So if you
went top fifteen, wouldn't be shocked at all. So he's
definitely one of them. And then a lot of these
(10:02):
guys in the front seven. You know, I want to
see Jehi Campbell from the linebacker from Alabama. He's tremendous.
Can't wait to see how he tests. He should be
a certified freak. So it's a really good year for
the front seven guys, and I think a lot of
them will show out here in India.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
All right, Dane, You know Chris Pallard, you know what
the way that he's been drafting, but who knows what
that philosophy looks like this year really, I mean, you know,
he likes to move back and collect picks. If that's
the case the middle of this draft your late second,
your third, and heavy forward and stuff, and Chris likes
to draft those guys Day two, Day three, guys in
there that come in and make a difference on Sundays.
(10:40):
Is this the draft that we're going to find potential
starters when you're talking about late second into the third
and fourth.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
It certainly can.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
It depends on the position, right, Some positions are deeper
than others this year. I certainly think you can do
that tight end. I think you could do that. At
running back, I think you could do that. Probably a corner.
There's enough athletes in this draft that I think you
feel like you can find some guys at corner.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
So certain positions will.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
Stretch, and you know, it's it's it's always interesting when
you know, because I've known Chris for you know, going
really came to City Days is when I first met
Chris and we started our you know, relationship. And it's
interesting that you know, when you're in a position for
as long as Chris has been here in Indianapolis, and
(11:23):
you know, you have your core philosophies, but then you
also grow, you know, you also adapt to certain things.
Speaker 6 (11:29):
So I'm interested to see.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
I'm always interested how how Chris drafts because it's you know,
maybe every year you you change just a little bit
about how you think about how you look at things.
How you your philosophies and certain positions, and so it's
really interesting to see how they're going to attack this
year where you're just you're not promised twenty twenty six,
you know, and so you don't want to go all
in on this year or anything like that. But at
the same time, you want to make sure you're helping
(11:52):
for the here and now, and so I know Chris
is very cognizant of that.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Speaking of Chris, do you think this is the year
the call seem to continue to attack and stay offensive Lineman,
knowing that they could potentially lose a couple with some
uncertainties with Braden Smith's rights or some free agents in
house that they have to deal with as well, is
this year to continue to stockpile like he likes to do.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Yeah, I mean, there's no such thing as a team
that feels like they're totally set on the depth of
the offensive line, you know, and just look at the
Super Bowl and what happened with the Chiefs. You know,
There's no such thing as feeling everybody needs it exactly.
I mean, you just load up on those positions, even
if they're developmental guys that you know, you feel like
you can turn into something. This is we think about
(12:33):
what they got out of Bernard Raymond, you know where
they drafted him and what he's become for the team.
And so I think that there are guys in this
draft that certainly you could look at outside the first round,
outside the top fifty, and you just add depth because
that's that's such an important part of this It's it's
a game of attrition, and the more depth you have,
the better chance you have winning deep in December.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
How complicated is this top overall pick with you know
what what the strength of the draft is, the uncertainty
of Will Levis now with this foot deal with abdual Carter,
how do they sort this out? I know they have time,
but it seems like it's one of the worst years
if you will, to be sitting at the top of
the draft, if that makes sense.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
Relative to especially like team like last year. Yeah, I
think it's fair to say that. I mean, it's never
a bad year to have their number one pick because
you control the draft.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Do you get the best.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Player on your board in the draft, And there's value
in that certainly, And I don't know how much the
foot issue will affect Bill Carter's talking with Drew Rosenhouse
this morning and he's adamant that they got great news
this morning about the foot, and he's gonna be a
full participant at the Pro day. It's not going to
affect him. So, you know, I'm interested who's gonna be
(13:45):
picking first.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Is it going to be the Titans right or where
we are right now?
Speaker 5 (13:50):
We're still two months away from the draft. My prediction
right now is cam Wore will be.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
The first pick.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
I just don't know where any whether it's going to
be Titans at one sticking and picking, or are the
Giant's gonna get little Antsy and say let's go get
our guy. Could the Browns maybe make that move from
two to one? So I think cam Ward goes one.
With what we know right now, I think he goes one.
Just I'm not sure which team is going to be
making that pick.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
All NFL fans and fans of football are always eyes
are on the quarterback. So I want to set this
up for you. Let's take cam Ward out of it,
Let's take Sanders out of the mix. Any starters in
this draft after those two when it comes to the
quarterback position.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Yeah, potentially, Usually we have more Day one quarterbacks and
Day two quarterbacks if because if you're not good enough
to go in Round one, usually your teams are gonna
draft you on Day two. This is one of the
strange years where we might have more Day two quarterbacks
than first rounders. You know, Tyler Shuck from Louisville, I'm
a big fan of He's Yes, he'll be a twenty
(14:44):
six year old rookie. Once you get past that, I
think you start to see, okay, the way the ball
exploses off his hand, the way he can move in
the pocket, a big, sturdy kid. Yeah, he's seventh year senior.
But it's all medical stuff. And look, there's something to
be said about experience quarterback. You look at what Jade
Daniels did last year bo Nix. You know, those were
five year starters in college. And even though Shuck doesn't
(15:07):
have the same level of experience, just because he was
banged up so much, as long as my doctors and
trainers say medicals are clean, he's good. We have no
long term worries. I have no problem drafting Tayler Shock
on Day two. And you know, I don't care that
he's twenty six or he'll be twenty six. He has
starting talent for the next level, so hopefully he lands
(15:28):
in the right spot and gets a chance to show.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
That Dane Brugler.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Final thing from the athletic tell us about the Beast,
How you doing with it? How many prospects this year?
How many pages? And when can we expect to drop?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Yeah, I'm trying not to get too anxious about We're
almost we're a month away from having to be done
with it, and we've got some cool new things this
year making it more digital friendly on the athletic sites.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
That'll be fun.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
But you know, at my mindset is just I'm gonna
do the work and find out see where we are
when we're done. You know who knows that that's four
hundred players, but the goal is always four hundred gud
reports and close to two thousand players in the with
full pro day information, verified NFL stuff. So yeah, I
think most people know what the Beast is right now.
But if if you don't you like the draft at all,
(16:11):
I promise you will not be disappointed by what the
Beast has to offer.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So it is it is worth every penny. Now, how
many people do have helping you with that? In terms
of like layout and prep and sorting.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
All the work I do myself in terms of the
the reports and all the ever all that. Yeah, we
have a design team that does a great job and
we've actually've actually added to that this year with the
digital component. So I'm excited to see what it looks
like when it's all said and done. That'll be a
lot of fun. But yeah, it's there's a little bit
of anxiousness too, just I want to want to get
(16:40):
it done, get it out there, and hopefully, you know,
people enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
An army of one, if you will, and I don't
think anybody's help And Dane Brugler with the beast other
than Dan Brugler.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Great work.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I love catching up with you on this thing, and
thanks for all the insight that you bring to this
twenty twenty five NFL now anytime.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
Thanks guys.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
It's a combined staple every single year to step into
the beautiful mind of Matt Miller from ESPN and ESPN
dot com say.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Saint Elma, well that too.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, have you been there yet, by the way, this week?
Speaker 7 (17:09):
Oh no, I did, Harry and the same thing. Yeah, yeah,
I've had my signs. The steps you know.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
ESPN NFL Draft Analysts insider from ESPN at NFL Draft
Scouts on Twitter. X Matt, Welcome back to Indianapolis. You've
been doing this a long time. How does the combine
continue to grow and evolve and become more important to
people like yourself and those.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That cover this league?
Speaker 7 (17:35):
Yeah, thanks for calling me old number one. I appreciate
that I've been doing this a long thing.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
I have.
Speaker 7 (17:39):
This is my thirteenth combine I think, so I've been
at it a long time. You know.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
The I think the cool thing about.
Speaker 7 (17:45):
The Combine as it grows is the analytics that get involved.
You know, it's not, of course we have like the
forty yard dashes stuff, but now we have you know,
we have GPS tracking on everything and like anything that
helps me learn more about players. I'm in favor of,
you know, any anything like and it helps us do
our job. You know, there's a lot that happens even
behind the scenes with you know, cognition testing and personality
(18:05):
typing and all. You know, the combine is about so
much more than just the forty r dash. So Number one,
it needs to stay in Indy.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I love it here. Number two, like I wish.
Speaker 7 (18:15):
I wish there was a way to incentivize it for
players to work out, because I think one of the
unfortunate sides of the combine is and we've we've got
a long list of players not working out for myriad reasons.
But I do miss the days when you'd come here
and I feel like everybody was gonna work out and
felt the competition, you know of like uh, you know,
or like Julio Jones borrow and shoes to run a forty.
(18:36):
You know, I kind of miss that. I'm like, you
know what, I'm gonna prove it. I'm gonna go to
show that I'm the guy.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
And that's that's one thing that I always loved, especially
when I mean, this is kind of an exception because
it's not a deep quarterback class, but you've been there
when you have four or five quarterbacks competing for those
top spots. They come here and they all sling it.
You know, that is one thing. You're right, you know,
we missed that.
Speaker 7 (18:57):
I'll watch Patrick Mahomes throw here and it was like
good lord. And then the next year Josh Allen threw
and You're like, wait, nope, that was like okay, you know,
it's like that's that's the fun part being in the
being in Lucas Oil last year when Xavier Worthy ran
the forty. Oh, I mean that like I had, I
got chills and you could feel it coming and like
the momentum and the energy in there, and like all
the scouts are buzzing and it's like this guy, this
(19:19):
is about to happen, Like he's going to do this thing.
And so like from a competitive standpoint and from an
evaluation standpoint, I don't know how it happens.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Just I don't know.
Speaker 7 (19:27):
Give guys a thousand dollars or something. Come on, let's
let's get people working out. Give them a grand I'll
run a forty for right now.
Speaker 8 (19:33):
Put that in the n IL fund, right right, I
do a lot.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
For a thousand dollars. To be honest with you, all.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Right, tell me about your colt's needs. I mean, rank
them in order. I mean, is it tight end, is
it secondary, is it offensive line?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And how does that relate to the strengths of this draft?
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Yeah, I think it's tight end.
Speaker 7 (19:48):
I mean, you have the fewest receptions by any tight
end group in the nation last year in the nation
college in the league last year. So that's obviously a
big one and I think it lines up with the
strings at this draft. You know, with Tyler warrenant Colton
leveland are both of my top ten players overall, so
that lines up well. Secondary, Yeah, you got to you
gotta find some playmakers.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
You know.
Speaker 7 (20:06):
I thought they went into last year light at corner
and I know those guys got graded out pretty well
on how the corners played, you know, a testament to
the development that they had there. But you need difference
makers on offensane defense right now, like that's where this
team's at. You need somebody that when you get out
on the field, you got to find that guy, you know,
because they're that the impact player. So I think that's
one of the big keys for this offseason, whether it
(20:28):
be free agency or the draft, is find those difference makers.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
How how long or how much how much can you
wait in this draft to get a difference maker, a
starter potentially in the secondary within this draft class.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
This is not a good secondary class.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I want to be got to get that news.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
Yeah, And so here's what's wild though, I don't know
that there's a player that I would value at fourteen
unless Will Johnson, the corner from Michigan Falls or Zade
Baron from Texas. Like those are the two where I
think at fourteen they're in that conversation. Otherwise and I'm
like the biggest Emon Morrey fan in the world. The
safety from South Carolina. Fourteen's early for a safety unless
(21:05):
that guy is going to be Ed Reid, you know,
like they they have to be great, you know, even
like you know, Derwin James has been good for a
really long time. He's a big impact player. Chargers haven't
won any games because of him. Right, It's like at fourteen,
I want to draft a guy at a premium position,
you know. And I would even throw tight end into
that mix, just because like they're going to be your
number two receiver or maybe even number one receiver. So like,
(21:26):
if you can get a premium pass catcher at fourteen,
that's the route.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I go in. By secondary, you mean both corner and and.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
As far as draft class goes, it's weak at those spots. Yeah,
I don't.
Speaker 7 (21:35):
Again, Will Johnson, I'll put way up there, Zade Baron,
I'll put way up there. Then we've got to drop
off to that third corner, and at safety, I have
em and Warrey in like twenty five. I have Malachi
Starks at like thirty five, Xavier Watts in the fifties,
So like there's a they're just not those blue chip
players at those positions this year.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
How big is the gap between the third best tight
end versus the third best corner. Yeah, that's a good
question if you compare and contrast those gaps in terms
of positional needs.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
Yeah, so the way you would want to stack it, right, So,
like I think if you take a tight end at fourteen,
when you come back around middle round two, I think
that's where the.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Corner sweet spot might be.
Speaker 7 (22:15):
Actually, you know, it's like that I would feel better
about if you told me I could have Tyler Warren
and Trey Amos the corner from Ole miss and those
are my stacks around one too, Like I'd be very
happy about that as opposed to reaching a fourteen on
Malachi Starks, who my my buddy Melkiper had the cults taken,
and then getting like Mason Taylor maybe like he might
be gone at that even middle round two, So you
(22:37):
might be at a point where it's like, Okay, it's
Elijah o' royo from Miami or gunner Helm from Texas.
So like I would feel better about getting that tight
end round one, a corner or safety round two.
Speaker 8 (22:47):
Now you talked briefly about, you know, the cornerback group,
and one of the guys I feel like I have
done all week is I forget about Travis Hunter because
he's this hybrid.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Yeah, he's everything. Where do you have him?
Speaker 8 (22:59):
Is he the top corner, top receiver or yeah?
Speaker 7 (23:02):
And it's tough because you would love to break him
out and almost grade him twice or like write him
up twice.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
I might do that.
Speaker 7 (23:07):
I'm someone remind me I need to get if he
was right, if he was only a wide receiver, he'd
be my top receiver. If he was only a corner,
he'd be my top corner. Okay, So, and I think
it's team dependent how you view him. I know he
says he's gonna play both ways. I don't know that
you can do that long term, I think, and it's
not even just like I think mentally he can handle it,
but I think it's hard. The time commitment to be
(23:31):
great at one position in the NFL is really hard.
So now you're gonna do it at two positions? Like
that's that's difficult for me to envision.
Speaker 8 (23:38):
One of the things that Chris Ballard said is that
they're gonna add competition around Anthony Richardson. And one of
the kind of ways I've worded it this week is
you've got these quarterbacks. It's not a real rich quarterback
at the top on this class, but you've got some
guys who.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Have played a lot of college football.
Speaker 8 (23:57):
So do you think there is any quarterbacks in this
class in Day two, day three that can be brought
in and be that competition because of the amount of
high snaps at a high level.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
The college experience.
Speaker 7 (24:08):
Yeah, Like the safe answer would be no, because other
than Jalen Hurts, there's not a quarterback that you know
from the second round who's doing anything in the NFL really,
And outside of Russell Wilson, there's not one from the
third round, and outside of Rock Party, there's not one
from Day three, right, So it's like it's a very
very small list of good quarterbacks who weren't first round picks.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
So the safe answers no.
Speaker 7 (24:28):
But I do think this class has some value in
the in the middle at quarterback, right kem Morerishier Sanders.
They're gonna go over right after that, guys like Jackson
Dart three year starter at Old Miss Quinn you or
three year starter at Texas, Will Howard k State and
Ohio State, Kyle McCord two year starter. So I do
think like those guys could come in and they could
absolutely be competition. Now are they going to be better
(24:48):
day one than Anthony? Maybe not, But I do think
you're onto something there that the days of a guy
being a twelve game starter in college and coming out
are probably gone, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Like agents know, scouts know.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
In fact, you know, there were some quarterbacks this year
that I got asked to advise on and was like,
if you have not started twenty five games in college,
go back to college. Because NFL teams are very aware
of the hit the bust rate. And I'm not calling
Anthony a bust yet Mitchell Trubisky one year starter, doesn't
work out. Even Zach Wilson was like a one and
a half year starter. You know, it's like, man, guys
(25:20):
just need to play football.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
How has it affected Jalen Milroe.
Speaker 8 (25:24):
He's kind of a polarizing guy in my eyes because
you play at Alabama, you got all these eyeballs. Yet
it seems like he's just opened down. What's the tape
on Jalen Milroll.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
It's I mean it is the tape is there are games,
especially early in the twenty twenty four season, where he
thought this dude's gonna take the jump, He's gonna be
the guy. He regressed over the course of the season
as a passer. You don't see that very often, where
from week one to week twelve he actually got worse.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
I don't know if it's a confidence thing. I don't
know if there was an injury there.
Speaker 7 (25:51):
Obviously there was a big time scheme change when they
brought in Kaylen de Bori's head coach. They wanted him
to do things that he's not that good at, and
I think for him as every team I've sat down
with his asking about Jaylen Millwer, I'll tell you that
because he's fascinating. Yeah, but my thing would be, like,
I need to see the guy consistently complete easy passes
before I can get excited about him as a runner,
(26:12):
because you got to be able to hit, you know,
the fifteen yard out, and he can't do that consistently.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Where did he regress? Was that footwork mechanics?
Speaker 7 (26:20):
Yeah, it's footwork that led to some upper body like
nothing was aligned. You know, his feederre all over the place,
his timing ends up all over the place, and then
his ball placement ends up all over the place. So
I know there were some Anthony Rigson comparisons for him.
He's also he's not that big. You know, he is
incredibly fast, but he's a little bit over six foot tall.
He's two hundred pounds two hundred twenty pound excuse me,
(26:40):
but he's not this hulking physical presence. He has under
nine inch hands, he doesn't have a huge arm. I
think what happened with Milroe was people saw clips and
got really excited and then projected him to be something
that he's not.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I mean, you brought up Anthony Richardson. I mean, let's
be real. I mean we're you're sitting here in the
colts table. We're all rooting in, hoping, like heck that
things turn around for them. But is Richardson's success or
lack thereof so far in the NFL hurting.
Speaker 7 (27:06):
Jylen Milroe a little bit?
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (27:09):
I mean, I think any guy who hasn't proven themselves
as a passer in college where you're betting on traits basically,
and you're betting on upside. Not just Milroe, I mean
any any quarterback right now where you're saying, oh, let's
bet on trades over you know, the proven attributes. And
that was the thing where Anthony, like y'all remember, people
wanted to take him over C. J. Stroud because he's
the most athletic quarterback has ever tested to the combine.
(27:31):
But that hasn't parlayed into results in the NFL. So
I think any player, and even guys on defense. You know,
we can look at Trevon Walker with the Jaguars, was
drafted ahead of eight Hudginson.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
I think jacksonvill would redo.
Speaker 7 (27:43):
That today if they could, right and so, and like
a big philosophy of mine right now is draft good
football players. And like that's how I remind myself stop
getting carried away about forty yard dashes. Yeah, if a guy,
if that athletic ability doesn't translate to production, what.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Good is it?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Right? Yeah? He just you know, he drafted a really
good looking guy.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
At the end of the day, Matt Miller, right there,
I know your schedule is incredibly busy.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
One final thing. I know we're sitting here on radio row.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
There's a million media outlets and a lot of buzz
at the combine because it's combine, right, there's always buzz here.
But to the masses, right, if you can think like
my brother in law. Okay, my brother in law is
not a.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Huge sports guy.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Okay, but he gets excited about big things and in
the past he's gotten excited about the draft. Is my
brother in law getting excited about this draft? Have you
seen the masses get excited about this meat and potatoes
draft compared to other years in recent past?
Speaker 4 (28:35):
No, No, there's not. Quarterbacks.
Speaker 7 (28:37):
Quarterbacks sell right, and last year we had six go
in the top twelve. That sells right, And this year no,
And that's you know the same thing. I have friends
who are they know what I do for a living.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Yeah, but they're not following.
Speaker 7 (28:48):
They're on the front class, right, you know, they're like, oh, well,
they know who Travis Hunter is, they know who Door
Sanders is, maybe Ashton genty But this is mean potatoes.
Is the best way to describe this draft without a doubt.
But what's fun is all those football fans, all their
teams are going to get better from this draft because
it's so good In the trenches, and we just saw
Philadelphia whip Kansas City because of that.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
We've seen Mahomes lose two Super Bowls because his left
tackle can't do his job.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
Yeah, so like, no, it's not the most exciting draft,
but I guarantee you, like your team is going to
be better if they address the trenches.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Through this draft.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, in five years, there's going to be some impactful
players from this draft class that win super Bowls. Right,
That's how it goes. Matt Miller ESPN and ESPN dot Com.
Follow him on Twitter x at NFL Draft Scout, like
the hundreds of thousands of other people have already decided to.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Do that are really excited about this draft class.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Matt, always appreciate your time, thanks for squeezing us in
and enjoy the rest of your stay.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Thanks, guys, appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
That's Matt Miller at the NFL Combine earlier this week
on why this draft is still very important despite the
lack of big names and big depth at skill positions.
Thanks to Matt, and also thanks to Dane Brugler for
the time and for being part of the final edition
here of the Combine Converse podcast series. But we got
tons more chats from the combine in store for you.
(30:05):
We'll give those to you on future podcasts, future Last
Word radio shows, and are inside the Draft series that's
coming up throughout March and April as well, so stay
tuned for those. I'm Matt Taylor, and you're in the
right place here for the latest on the Colts and
thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
You're on the Colts Audio Network.
This is the final installment of the Combine Conversation podcast
series here on the Colts Audio Network.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Thanks for tuning in and.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Matt Taylor and all week long we were set
up on Radio Row at the twenty twenty five NFL
Combine gathering great interviews and getting perspectives from some of
the biggest names that cover the NFL and the NFL Draft.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And today we have two more top dogs for you
to hear from.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Dane Brugler is the NFL Draft analyst from The Athletic
and one of the most respected and hardest working NFL
draftnicks in the business, and the same could be said
for Matt Miller, who covers the NFL Draft for ESPN
and ESPN dot Com. So myself and Jeffrey Gorman chatted
with Brugler at the Combine earlier this week, and Casey
Valier also joined me for a sit down with Miller
(00:50):
on Radio Row as well, and they both chatted with
us regarding the biggest positional groups of need for the Colts,
the top prospects who could still be on the board
when the Colts drafted fourteenth overall, and why this draft
is unique in that it's gonna bolster a lot of
teams in the trenches on both sides of the line
of scrimmage.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So let's get it going.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
We begin with Dane Brugler from the Athletic, who's always
gracious with this time at the NFL Combine.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
We're here at the twenty twenty five NFL Combine downtown Indianapolis.
Time to find out about some prospects and what's going
on in the upcoming draft after this combine.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
We do that.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
From the Athletic, Dane Brugler covers the NFL and specifically
this NFL draft. Let's look at the thirty two picks,
the thirty two teams, if you will. I love asking
experts like you, how many real true first rounders do
you think are in this year's draft.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
I think it's it's not a high number. I think
it's more like a dozen. Really twelve, Yeah, I mean
it's and every team's going to differ a little bit
on that, but true blue chip, all right, these are
first round guys. I think most years you have, you know, eighteen,
maybe a few more. This year, I think it's the
number smaller, so I think it's closer to a dozen.
(02:01):
But like I said, I think teams might differ a
little bit, but I don't think it's gonna be very
high for most teams.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Daining this offense in Indianapolis. Obviously it starts at the
quarterback position with any offense, but last year not a
lot of productivity out of the tight end room. And
you have said in the past, in the last couple
of days, just reading what you've been following, is this
tight end group that's coming out flow it's a big one.
How many first rounders do you see for starters.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Tyler Warren from Penn State and Colson Lovelan from Michigan.
I think, and I don't even think it's a debate
about who's tight end one. It's just a preference. If
you want the upside guy, Colson Lovelan is for you.
I mean, he's a little more of a hybrid tight
end where you're gonna line him up out wide, you're
gonna put him a slot, You're gonna do these different
things with him. You know, think about how the Raiders
(02:44):
used brock Bowers last year. You know you're gonna be
creative with how you use the athleticism in the past
catching skills that Colson Lovelin has offer. Tyler Warren's more
of He's not a true, you know, a wide tight end,
but he's more of that prototypical hand.
Speaker 6 (02:59):
In the ground, inline guy.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
And I don't want to make it sound like he's
not a good athlete, because he is. He's two hundred
and fifty five pounds. He should run in the four sixes.
He should test really well. And you know, being a
former quarterback, he just he has such a natural feel
for the passing game and you know, he's not going
to create a ton of separation, but he wins the
catch point. And I love the physicality that he plays
(03:23):
with him It's in his blood. His dad was a
safety at Richmond and nicknamed the Hitman. Like it's in
his blood that he likes to play physical. And so
the argument to not draft one of those guys is
because second round, third round, there's yeah, you know, I'm
a big fan of you know, whether it's Taylor from
LSU or Royo from Miami. I really like Gunner Helm
from Texas. I think he'd be a perfect cult second
(03:45):
round pick if they went a different direction in the
first round. So if they want to come away from
this draft of the tight end, They're gonna have plenty
of options.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What about the concept of drafting a tight end of
the first round as it relates to grades of other positions, right,
is it a better idea to draft either of those
two guys Lovelin or Tyler Warren or the second or
third best defensive tackle, if you will.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
And that's where, Yeah, we're getting into philosophy of drafting,
and there's so many different ways of looking at it.
You know, like we're talking a lot about running backs
and like how early do you draft a running back?
It's a similar thing with tight end. I think for
some the makeup of the roster. For some teams, it
won't make as much sense to invest a first round
pick in that position.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
But I think for a.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Team like the Colts, where you need to figure out
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Quarterbacks trying to support that position exactly.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
You need and it's something where you don't want to
make a draft pick just for twenty twenty five. Yeah,
but you know that has to factor in a little bit.
You know, you understanding, Okay, what's Anthony Richardson? Is he
the future? How are we gonna help him take that
next step as a quarterback? So I think for a
team like the Colts, it makes sense to invest in
that position.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
Early if the pick is worth it.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
And like I said, maybe let's just say the Colts
have twelve first round grade. I think there's a good
chance those two tight ends could be two of those
first round grades, And if one of them is available
at fourteen, I think it becomes a lot easier because
he might be the only four or first round grade
still left on the board at that point.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Which of those guys has a better chance to be
there at fourteen in the middle of the draft.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Yeah, it's tough to say, because I think that teams
are kind of split on you know. I do think
Tyler Warren's probably just because we've seen him do it
more where Colston Levelin has been banged up. I just
saw him at the podium his arms still in a sling,
you know, as he works his way back from that
shoulder injury. There's no doubt Colston Leveland has the more upside.
But for a team like the Colts, and for a
(05:37):
lot of these other teams drafting a guy that just
have a better idea of who he is, you know
what you can do with him, especially from day one
because it's he's ready to mete out of the box,
no batteries required, you know, he just opened the box assembly.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
With him exactly.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
So yeah, I think that if I was a betting man,
I'd say Tyler Warren's probably the favorite to be the
first tight end drafted, but wouldn't be surprised at all
if Loveland ends up going first.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
You know, despite the collective results on the defensive side
of the ball, the Colts feel like they're close. They've
got some playmakers and all three levels of the defense.
Lou Ana Rumo's there now is the defensive coordinator. What
do you peg as the biggest defensive need or biggest
defensive tweak the Colts can make by drafting a guy
high in this draft, whether that's first round or Day two.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, I think, you know, looking at the secondary, I
think corner or safety. I think we could see them
make a splash, and relative to most years, I don't
think it's the deepest cornerback group. Usually there's so many
athletes at receiver and corner that we have just a
high volume of those guys.
Speaker 6 (06:39):
This year, it's kind of the opposite.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
Where receivers not super deep corners, okay, but not to
the level of we've seen in some past years. A
guy that you know, thinking about day two, Shavon Ravel
from East Carolina. I love that fit with I mean,
first of all, size, length, speed. Unfortunately won't be able
to show it here because of the ACL. I actually
(07:02):
have a feature on The Athletic that just posted today
about Chavon's story, and it's just tremendous.
Speaker 6 (07:08):
He was in a.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Bad car accident in high school, worked his way back
from that Amazon. It worked at Amazon, that's right, because
he didn't have the grades, and he takes accountability. He said,
I didn't work hard enough in high school and I
was all about ball and I didn't work hard enough
of my grades. So he goes to Juco and then
Covid knocks out the season and so he's, you know,
in order to stay busy, make ends meet, gets a
(07:30):
job at Amazon whether his dad was working, but he
still stayed true to the dream and his dad signed
them up for an ECU East Carolina prospect camp. And
so after Chavon worked a he was like a six
pm to four am shift, so ten hour overnight shift,
(07:51):
and then he waited in the car for his dad
to finish his shift, went home in ad breakfast, and
then they drove to Greenville for the camp and he
ran a four to four to zero flat thirty nine
inch for eleven the broad and the into Chavon's dad
and he said, because he was standing sitting in the
bleachers watching, he said, after he ran the forty, the coach,
there was a coach that just ran down to kind
of just show him the time. And you know, he
(08:12):
was jacked up, and they told him, you know, go
back to Juco, get your GPA up to I think
got two point six.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
And he did it.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
He did his part of the bargain and he had
a breakout twenty twenty three season. And you know, another reminder,
life's not fair. I mean he Alabama wanted him, LSU
wanted him. He they were well into six figures. I
mean we're talking almost half a million dollars. He stayed
loyal to ECU and had the ACL three weeks into
the year and it's just like that's that's brutal. And
(08:40):
so but if you know, teams, when they talk to players,
they want to know what adversities have you had to face?
Chavn's face at all, there's no doubt he has got
the mental toughness to do it. And when you factor
in the size, the length of speed, Yeah, I think
somewhere on somewhere in the second round a team's going
to get a first round player who has a discount
sticker on him.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
But I think it'll work out pretty well.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
We'll keep our eye on that young man. I wanted
to ask you about who you're excited about watch test
out here, whether it's physical specimen, whether it's length, whether
it's how high they jump, whatever. Who are some of
the guys that you're saying, Hey, obviously they're going to
affect their wallet a little bit the way that they
perform out here on the turf.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
Nick Emman, worry the safety from South Carolina can't wait
for that. I mean, he's legit six two and a
half two hundred and twenty five pounds and he can fly.
The jump should be tremendous, should be over forty inches
fifteen guy, we'll see. I think you know, because teams
have to understand, Okay, what is he? Is he a safety? Linebacker? Hybrid?
Speaker 6 (09:40):
Is he Can we play him as a post?
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Can we play him as a single high like they
have to figure out what's the best spot for him. So, like,
the traits are phenomenal, but understanding how does that translate
to the field. That's kind of like where teams are
stuck right now, trying to figure that part out. But
the talent says the first round pick, So if you
went top fifteen, wouldn't be shocked at all. So he's
definitely one of them. And then a lot of these
(10:02):
guys in the front seven. You know, I want to
see Jehi Campbell from the linebacker from Alabama. He's tremendous.
Can't wait to see how he tests. He should be
a certified freak. So it's a really good year for
the front seven guys, and I think a lot of
them will show out here in India.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
All right, Dane, You know Chris Pallard, you know what
the way that he's been drafting, but who knows what
that philosophy looks like this year really, I mean, you know,
he likes to move back and collect picks. If that's
the case the middle of this draft your late second,
your third, and heavy forward and stuff, and Chris likes
to draft those guys Day two, Day three, guys in
there that come in and make a difference on Sundays.
(10:40):
Is this the draft that we're going to find potential
starters when you're talking about late second into the third
and fourth.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
It certainly can.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
It depends on the position, right, Some positions are deeper
than others this year. I certainly think you can do
that tight end. I think you could do that. At
running back, I think you could do that. Probably a corner.
There's enough athletes in this draft that I think you
feel like you can find some guys at corner.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
So certain positions will.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
Stretch, and you know, it's it's it's always interesting when
you know, because I've known Chris for you know, going
really came to City Days is when I first met
Chris and we started our you know, relationship. And it's
interesting that you know, when you're in a position for
as long as Chris has been here in Indianapolis, and
(11:23):
you know, you have your core philosophies, but then you
also grow, you know, you also adapt to certain things.
Speaker 6 (11:29):
So I'm interested to see.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
I'm always interested how how Chris drafts because it's you know,
maybe every year you you change just a little bit
about how you think about how you look at things.
How you your philosophies and certain positions, and so it's
really interesting to see how they're going to attack this
year where you're just you're not promised twenty twenty six,
you know, and so you don't want to go all
in on this year or anything like that. But at
the same time, you want to make sure you're helping
(11:52):
for the here and now, and so I know Chris
is very cognizant of that.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Speaking of Chris, do you think this is the year
the call seem to continue to attack and stay offensive Lineman,
knowing that they could potentially lose a couple with some
uncertainties with Braden Smith's rights or some free agents in
house that they have to deal with as well, is
this year to continue to stockpile like he likes to do.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Yeah, I mean, there's no such thing as a team
that feels like they're totally set on the depth of
the offensive line, you know, and just look at the
Super Bowl and what happened with the Chiefs. You know,
There's no such thing as feeling everybody needs it exactly.
I mean, you just load up on those positions, even
if they're developmental guys that you know, you feel like
you can turn into something. This is we think about
(12:33):
what they got out of Bernard Raymond, you know where
they drafted him and what he's become for the team.
And so I think that there are guys in this
draft that certainly you could look at outside the first round,
outside the top fifty, and you just add depth because
that's that's such an important part of this It's it's
a game of attrition, and the more depth you have,
the better chance you have winning deep in December.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
How complicated is this top overall pick with you know
what what the strength of the draft is, the uncertainty
of Will Levis now with this foot deal with abdual Carter,
how do they sort this out? I know they have time,
but it seems like it's one of the worst years
if you will, to be sitting at the top of
the draft, if that makes sense.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
Relative to especially like team like last year. Yeah, I
think it's fair to say that. I mean, it's never
a bad year to have their number one pick because
you control the draft.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Do you get the best.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Player on your board in the draft, And there's value
in that certainly, And I don't know how much the
foot issue will affect Bill Carter's talking with Drew Rosenhouse
this morning and he's adamant that they got great news
this morning about the foot, and he's gonna be a
full participant at the Pro day. It's not going to
affect him. So, you know, I'm interested who's gonna be
(13:45):
picking first.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Is it going to be the Titans right or where
we are right now?
Speaker 5 (13:50):
We're still two months away from the draft. My prediction
right now is cam Wore will be.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
The first pick.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
I just don't know where any whether it's going to
be Titans at one sticking and picking, or are the
Giant's gonna get little Antsy and say let's go get
our guy. Could the Browns maybe make that move from
two to one? So I think cam Ward goes one.
With what we know right now, I think he goes one.
Just I'm not sure which team is going to be
making that pick.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
All NFL fans and fans of football are always eyes
are on the quarterback. So I want to set this
up for you. Let's take cam Ward out of it,
Let's take Sanders out of the mix. Any starters in
this draft after those two when it comes to the
quarterback position.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Yeah, potentially, Usually we have more Day one quarterbacks and
Day two quarterbacks if because if you're not good enough
to go in Round one, usually your teams are gonna
draft you on Day two. This is one of the
strange years where we might have more Day two quarterbacks
than first rounders. You know, Tyler Shuck from Louisville, I'm
a big fan of He's Yes, he'll be a twenty
(14:44):
six year old rookie. Once you get past that, I
think you start to see, okay, the way the ball
exploses off his hand, the way he can move in
the pocket, a big, sturdy kid. Yeah, he's seventh year senior.
But it's all medical stuff. And look, there's something to
be said about experience quarterback. You look at what Jade
Daniels did last year bo Nix. You know, those were
five year starters in college. And even though Shuck doesn't
(15:07):
have the same level of experience, just because he was
banged up so much, as long as my doctors and
trainers say medicals are clean, he's good. We have no
long term worries. I have no problem drafting Tayler Shock
on Day two. And you know, I don't care that
he's twenty six or he'll be twenty six. He has
starting talent for the next level, so hopefully he lands
(15:28):
in the right spot and gets a chance to show.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
That Dane Brugler.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Final thing from the athletic tell us about the Beast,
How you doing with it? How many prospects this year?
How many pages? And when can we expect to drop?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Yeah, I'm trying not to get too anxious about We're
almost we're a month away from having to be done
with it, and we've got some cool new things this
year making it more digital friendly on the athletic sites.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
That'll be fun.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
But you know, at my mindset is just I'm gonna
do the work and find out see where we are
when we're done. You know who knows that that's four
hundred players, but the goal is always four hundred gud
reports and close to two thousand players in the with
full pro day information, verified NFL stuff. So yeah, I
think most people know what the Beast is right now.
But if if you don't you like the draft at all,
(16:11):
I promise you will not be disappointed by what the
Beast has to offer.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So it is it is worth every penny. Now, how
many people do have helping you with that? In terms
of like layout and prep and sorting.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
All the work I do myself in terms of the
the reports and all the ever all that. Yeah, we
have a design team that does a great job and
we've actually've actually added to that this year with the
digital component. So I'm excited to see what it looks
like when it's all said and done. That'll be a
lot of fun. But yeah, it's there's a little bit
of anxiousness too, just I want to want to get
(16:40):
it done, get it out there, and hopefully, you know,
people enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
An army of one, if you will, and I don't
think anybody's help And Dane Brugler with the beast other
than Dan Brugler.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Great work.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I love catching up with you on this thing, and
thanks for all the insight that you bring to this
twenty twenty five NFL now anytime.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
Thanks guys.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
It's a combined staple every single year to step into
the beautiful mind of Matt Miller from ESPN and ESPN
dot com say.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Saint Elma, well that too.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, have you been there yet, by the way, this week?
Speaker 7 (17:09):
Oh no, I did, Harry and the same thing. Yeah, yeah,
I've had my signs. The steps you know.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
ESPN NFL Draft Analysts insider from ESPN at NFL Draft
Scouts on Twitter. X Matt, Welcome back to Indianapolis. You've
been doing this a long time. How does the combine
continue to grow and evolve and become more important to
people like yourself and those.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That cover this league?
Speaker 7 (17:35):
Yeah, thanks for calling me old number one. I appreciate
that I've been doing this a long thing.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
I have.
Speaker 7 (17:39):
This is my thirteenth combine I think, so I've been
at it a long time. You know.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
The I think the cool thing about.
Speaker 7 (17:45):
The Combine as it grows is the analytics that get involved.
You know, it's not, of course we have like the
forty yard dashes stuff, but now we have you know,
we have GPS tracking on everything and like anything that
helps me learn more about players. I'm in favor of,
you know, any anything like and it helps us do
our job. You know, there's a lot that happens even
behind the scenes with you know, cognition testing and personality
(18:05):
typing and all. You know, the combine is about so
much more than just the forty r dash. So Number one,
it needs to stay in Indy.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I love it here. Number two, like I wish.
Speaker 7 (18:15):
I wish there was a way to incentivize it for
players to work out, because I think one of the
unfortunate sides of the combine is and we've we've got
a long list of players not working out for myriad reasons.
But I do miss the days when you'd come here
and I feel like everybody was gonna work out and
felt the competition, you know of like uh, you know,
or like Julio Jones borrow and shoes to run a forty.
(18:36):
You know, I kind of miss that. I'm like, you
know what, I'm gonna prove it. I'm gonna go to
show that I'm the guy.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
And that's that's one thing that I always loved, especially
when I mean, this is kind of an exception because
it's not a deep quarterback class, but you've been there
when you have four or five quarterbacks competing for those
top spots. They come here and they all sling it.
You know, that is one thing. You're right, you know,
we missed that.
Speaker 7 (18:57):
I'll watch Patrick Mahomes throw here and it was like
good lord. And then the next year Josh Allen threw
and You're like, wait, nope, that was like okay, you know,
it's like that's that's the fun part being in the
being in Lucas Oil last year when Xavier Worthy ran
the forty. Oh, I mean that like I had, I
got chills and you could feel it coming and like
the momentum and the energy in there, and like all
the scouts are buzzing and it's like this guy, this
(19:19):
is about to happen, Like he's going to do this thing.
And so like from a competitive standpoint and from an
evaluation standpoint, I don't know how it happens.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Just I don't know.
Speaker 7 (19:27):
Give guys a thousand dollars or something. Come on, let's
let's get people working out. Give them a grand I'll
run a forty for right now.
Speaker 8 (19:33):
Put that in the n IL fund, right right, I
do a lot.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
For a thousand dollars. To be honest with you, all.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Right, tell me about your colt's needs. I mean, rank
them in order. I mean, is it tight end, is
it secondary, is it offensive line?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And how does that relate to the strengths of this draft?
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Yeah, I think it's tight end.
Speaker 7 (19:48):
I mean, you have the fewest receptions by any tight
end group in the nation last year in the nation
college in the league last year. So that's obviously a
big one and I think it lines up with the
strings at this draft. You know, with Tyler warrenant Colton
leveland are both of my top ten players overall, so
that lines up well. Secondary, Yeah, you got to you
gotta find some playmakers.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
You know.
Speaker 7 (20:06):
I thought they went into last year light at corner
and I know those guys got graded out pretty well
on how the corners played, you know, a testament to
the development that they had there. But you need difference
makers on offensane defense right now, like that's where this
team's at. You need somebody that when you get out
on the field, you got to find that guy, you know,
because they're that the impact player. So I think that's
one of the big keys for this offseason, whether it
(20:28):
be free agency or the draft, is find those difference makers.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
How how long or how much how much can you
wait in this draft to get a difference maker, a
starter potentially in the secondary within this draft class.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
This is not a good secondary class.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I want to be got to get that news.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
Yeah, And so here's what's wild though, I don't know
that there's a player that I would value at fourteen
unless Will Johnson, the corner from Michigan Falls or Zade
Baron from Texas. Like those are the two where I
think at fourteen they're in that conversation. Otherwise and I'm
like the biggest Emon Morrey fan in the world. The
safety from South Carolina. Fourteen's early for a safety unless
(21:05):
that guy is going to be Ed Reid, you know,
like they they have to be great, you know, even
like you know, Derwin James has been good for a
really long time. He's a big impact player. Chargers haven't
won any games because of him. Right, It's like at fourteen,
I want to draft a guy at a premium position,
you know. And I would even throw tight end into
that mix, just because like they're going to be your
number two receiver or maybe even number one receiver. So like,
(21:26):
if you can get a premium pass catcher at fourteen,
that's the route.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I go in. By secondary, you mean both corner and and.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
As far as draft class goes, it's weak at those spots. Yeah,
I don't.
Speaker 7 (21:35):
Again, Will Johnson, I'll put way up there, Zade Baron,
I'll put way up there. Then we've got to drop
off to that third corner, and at safety, I have
em and Warrey in like twenty five. I have Malachi
Starks at like thirty five, Xavier Watts in the fifties,
So like there's a they're just not those blue chip
players at those positions this year.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
How big is the gap between the third best tight
end versus the third best corner. Yeah, that's a good
question if you compare and contrast those gaps in terms
of positional needs.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
Yeah, so the way you would want to stack it, right, So,
like I think if you take a tight end at fourteen,
when you come back around middle round two, I think
that's where the.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Corner sweet spot might be.
Speaker 7 (22:15):
Actually, you know, it's like that I would feel better
about if you told me I could have Tyler Warren
and Trey Amos the corner from Ole miss and those
are my stacks around one too, Like I'd be very
happy about that as opposed to reaching a fourteen on
Malachi Starks, who my my buddy Melkiper had the cults taken,
and then getting like Mason Taylor maybe like he might
be gone at that even middle round two, So you
(22:37):
might be at a point where it's like, Okay, it's
Elijah o' royo from Miami or gunner Helm from Texas.
So like I would feel better about getting that tight
end round one, a corner or safety round two.
Speaker 8 (22:47):
Now you talked briefly about, you know, the cornerback group,
and one of the guys I feel like I have
done all week is I forget about Travis Hunter because
he's this hybrid.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Yeah, he's everything. Where do you have him?
Speaker 8 (22:59):
Is he the top corner, top receiver or yeah?
Speaker 7 (23:02):
And it's tough because you would love to break him
out and almost grade him twice or like write him
up twice.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
I might do that.
Speaker 7 (23:07):
I'm someone remind me I need to get if he
was right, if he was only a wide receiver, he'd
be my top receiver. If he was only a corner,
he'd be my top corner. Okay, So, and I think
it's team dependent how you view him. I know he
says he's gonna play both ways. I don't know that
you can do that long term, I think, and it's
not even just like I think mentally he can handle it,
but I think it's hard. The time commitment to be
(23:31):
great at one position in the NFL is really hard.
So now you're gonna do it at two positions? Like
that's that's difficult for me to envision.
Speaker 8 (23:38):
One of the things that Chris Ballard said is that
they're gonna add competition around Anthony Richardson. And one of
the kind of ways I've worded it this week is
you've got these quarterbacks. It's not a real rich quarterback
at the top on this class, but you've got some
guys who.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Have played a lot of college football.
Speaker 8 (23:57):
So do you think there is any quarterbacks in this
class in Day two, day three that can be brought
in and be that competition because of the amount of
high snaps at a high level.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
The college experience.
Speaker 7 (24:08):
Yeah, Like the safe answer would be no, because other
than Jalen Hurts, there's not a quarterback that you know
from the second round who's doing anything in the NFL really,
And outside of Russell Wilson, there's not one from the
third round, and outside of Rock Party, there's not one
from Day three, right, So it's like it's a very
very small list of good quarterbacks who weren't first round picks.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
So the safe answers no.
Speaker 7 (24:28):
But I do think this class has some value in
the in the middle at quarterback, right kem Morerishier Sanders.
They're gonna go over right after that, guys like Jackson
Dart three year starter at Old Miss Quinn you or
three year starter at Texas, Will Howard k State and
Ohio State, Kyle McCord two year starter. So I do
think like those guys could come in and they could
absolutely be competition. Now are they going to be better
(24:48):
day one than Anthony? Maybe not, But I do think
you're onto something there that the days of a guy
being a twelve game starter in college and coming out
are probably gone, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Like agents know, scouts know.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
In fact, you know, there were some quarterbacks this year
that I got asked to advise on and was like,
if you have not started twenty five games in college,
go back to college. Because NFL teams are very aware
of the hit the bust rate. And I'm not calling
Anthony a bust yet Mitchell Trubisky one year starter, doesn't
work out. Even Zach Wilson was like a one and
a half year starter. You know, it's like, man, guys
(25:20):
just need to play football.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
How has it affected Jalen Milroe.
Speaker 8 (25:24):
He's kind of a polarizing guy in my eyes because
you play at Alabama, you got all these eyeballs. Yet
it seems like he's just opened down. What's the tape
on Jalen Milroll.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
It's I mean it is the tape is there are games,
especially early in the twenty twenty four season, where he
thought this dude's gonna take the jump, He's gonna be
the guy. He regressed over the course of the season
as a passer. You don't see that very often, where
from week one to week twelve he actually got worse.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
I don't know if it's a confidence thing. I don't
know if there was an injury there.
Speaker 7 (25:51):
Obviously there was a big time scheme change when they
brought in Kaylen de Bori's head coach. They wanted him
to do things that he's not that good at, and
I think for him as every team I've sat down
with his asking about Jaylen Millwer, I'll tell you that
because he's fascinating. Yeah, but my thing would be, like,
I need to see the guy consistently complete easy passes
before I can get excited about him as a runner,
(26:12):
because you got to be able to hit, you know,
the fifteen yard out, and he can't do that consistently.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Where did he regress? Was that footwork mechanics?
Speaker 7 (26:20):
Yeah, it's footwork that led to some upper body like
nothing was aligned. You know, his feederre all over the place,
his timing ends up all over the place, and then
his ball placement ends up all over the place. So
I know there were some Anthony Rigson comparisons for him.
He's also he's not that big. You know, he is
incredibly fast, but he's a little bit over six foot tall.
He's two hundred pounds two hundred twenty pound excuse me,
(26:40):
but he's not this hulking physical presence. He has under
nine inch hands, he doesn't have a huge arm. I
think what happened with Milroe was people saw clips and
got really excited and then projected him to be something
that he's not.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I mean, you brought up Anthony Richardson. I mean, let's
be real. I mean we're you're sitting here in the
colts table. We're all rooting in, hoping, like heck that
things turn around for them. But is Richardson's success or
lack thereof so far in the NFL hurting.
Speaker 7 (27:06):
Jylen Milroe a little bit?
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (27:09):
I mean, I think any guy who hasn't proven themselves
as a passer in college where you're betting on traits basically,
and you're betting on upside. Not just Milroe, I mean
any any quarterback right now where you're saying, oh, let's
bet on trades over you know, the proven attributes. And
that was the thing where Anthony, like y'all remember, people
wanted to take him over C. J. Stroud because he's
the most athletic quarterback has ever tested to the combine.
(27:31):
But that hasn't parlayed into results in the NFL. So
I think any player, and even guys on defense. You know,
we can look at Trevon Walker with the Jaguars, was
drafted ahead of eight Hudginson.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
I think jacksonvill would redo.
Speaker 7 (27:43):
That today if they could, right and so, and like
a big philosophy of mine right now is draft good
football players. And like that's how I remind myself stop
getting carried away about forty yard dashes. Yeah, if a guy,
if that athletic ability doesn't translate to production, what.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Good is it?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Right? Yeah? He just you know, he drafted a really
good looking guy.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
At the end of the day, Matt Miller, right there,
I know your schedule is incredibly busy.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
One final thing. I know we're sitting here on radio row.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
There's a million media outlets and a lot of buzz
at the combine because it's combine, right, there's always buzz here.
But to the masses, right, if you can think like
my brother in law. Okay, my brother in law is
not a.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Huge sports guy.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Okay, but he gets excited about big things and in
the past he's gotten excited about the draft. Is my
brother in law getting excited about this draft? Have you
seen the masses get excited about this meat and potatoes
draft compared to other years in recent past?
Speaker 4 (28:35):
No, No, there's not. Quarterbacks.
Speaker 7 (28:37):
Quarterbacks sell right, and last year we had six go
in the top twelve. That sells right, And this year no,
And that's you know the same thing. I have friends
who are they know what I do for a living.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Yeah, but they're not following.
Speaker 7 (28:48):
They're on the front class, right, you know, they're like, oh, well,
they know who Travis Hunter is, they know who Door
Sanders is, maybe Ashton genty But this is mean potatoes.
Is the best way to describe this draft without a doubt.
But what's fun is all those football fans, all their
teams are going to get better from this draft because
it's so good In the trenches, and we just saw
Philadelphia whip Kansas City because of that.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
We've seen Mahomes lose two Super Bowls because his left
tackle can't do his job.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
Yeah, so like, no, it's not the most exciting draft,
but I guarantee you, like your team is going to
be better if they address the trenches.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Through this draft.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, in five years, there's going to be some impactful
players from this draft class that win super Bowls. Right,
That's how it goes. Matt Miller ESPN and ESPN dot Com.
Follow him on Twitter x at NFL Draft Scout, like
the hundreds of thousands of other people have already decided to.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Do that are really excited about this draft class.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Matt, always appreciate your time, thanks for squeezing us in
and enjoy the rest of your stay.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Thanks, guys, appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
That's Matt Miller at the NFL Combine earlier this week
on why this draft is still very important despite the
lack of big names and big depth at skill positions.
Thanks to Matt, and also thanks to Dane Brugler for
the time and for being part of the final edition
here of the Combine Converse podcast series. But we got
tons more chats from the combine in store for you.
(30:05):
We'll give those to you on future podcasts, future Last
Word radio shows, and are inside the Draft series that's
coming up throughout March and April as well, so stay
tuned for those. I'm Matt Taylor, and you're in the
right place here for the latest on the Colts and
thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
You're on the Colts Audio Network.
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