December 8, 2024 • 14 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
He's the Mike Tomlin King Day podcast with Steelers Digest
editor Bob Labriola, Okay coach. A couple of weeks ago,
we talked about how field goals get blocked in the NFL,
and you pointed out that there has to be some
negligence on the part of the kicking team for that
to happen. What happened on the forty two yard field
goal the Bengals blocked last Sunday.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Without naming specific names, you know, Broderick Jones, Spencer Anderson,
there was some negligence on the play.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
So can you just explain what it is a little
bit more in detail.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Certainly, you know, we block an area, not a man,
and over the course of time, sometimes particularly if those
men have special traits or the big men or strong men,
sometimes people get distracted by individuals. But the base rule
for us as we block an area, not a man.
And to make a long story short, those two guys
(00:57):
probably got preoccupied by men as a posed to aerial
spaces and it led to some space that created an
opportunity for the block.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
After the game in Cincinnati and then again during your
news conference a couple of days later, you made it
clear that you wanted your defensive backs to be physical
with physical wide receivers. In your words, when we play shack,
we're gonna use our files. Who is that message for everyone?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's just a component of football that I believe there
might not be any more size difference in the game
than those big body wide outs versus corners in play
people that compete against each other down in and down out.
You got some of these guys walking around like DK Metcalf,
Mike at Evans, T Higgins. There's six four six five,
(01:46):
twenty two hundred and twenty five pounds. They're significantly bigger
than corners, and so you know, how do you combat that?
You know, I'm not asking officials to do anything other
than allow of guys to fight fire with fire. In
terms of style of play, I would imagine NBA guys
at the same attitude when they were defending guys the
(02:08):
likes of Shock. They're not looking for anything other than
right an opportunity to match physicality with someone whose game
at times is defined by physicality.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
CBS's telecast of the game made a point of the
number of yards after the catch your Eligibles had in
the win over Cincinnati. Can you coach run after catch?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Absolutely, it's as much a component of coaching as the
route concepts themselves. You know, there's a mode of operation
in terms of run after, depending on whether it's man
or zone, and so there's continual coaching regarding that, not
only in terms of the guy that has the ball,
but the corresponding routes that oftentimes end up in position
(02:54):
to make blocks. And so that's something that we're paying
a quite a bit of attention to. As a matter
of fact, we've got a coach and signed to lead
our charge in that area as Mike Sullivan. He's a
coordinator of run after.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
So is it more video watching, you know, in the
classroom kind of thing, or can you actually set that
up on the field.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It's continual. You go through your normal practice and you
execute plays and you use examples along the way to
illustrate what it is you're looking for. You talk about finish.
It's simply a component of a play and you just
want to take the mistique out of it. And that's
a component of it I'm talking about when I'm talking
(03:40):
about the corresponding routes and how people are maybe positioned
for blocks after the catches made.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Russell Wilson seems to be a good fit for this
team in a lot of different ways on the field,
off the field as a leader and a teammate. Was
there a lot of get to know between you and
him before he signed here?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
There certainly was, and it continued after we signed him.
We couldnt have unique results without real relationships, and so
you know, I've always been a firm believer in that
I worked hard to get to know him as much
as I could in the process, but certainly after he
signed here, that's when the real work began in terms
(04:22):
of us gaining an understanding of who we are as
individuals and professionals and goals, aspirations, fears, et cetera. You
see a world through a lens that's based on your experience,
and so I just wanted to get a sense of
how his experiences in a variety of places he's been
has shaped him, even going back to NC State transitioning
(04:44):
to Wisconsin. You know, he is probably one of the
original high profile transfers, which is kind of commonplace in
this game, but it was really unique when he came out,
and so there's a lot to get to know, just
like I'm sure he feels the same way about me. Man,
if you know, if he's going to be the on
(05:04):
grass leader and kind of represent the things that I
prescribe or the visions that I see, he doesn't have
an understanding of who I am and how my experiences
have shaped me.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
How much freedom does Russell Wilson have when it comes
to getting the team into the best play once the
offense breaks the huddle? Is it an either or kind
of situation or does he have the whole menu available
to him?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
It really is circumstantial. You know, that is a complex
question with a complex answer. But circumstances are a major
component of latitude or lack thereof latitude. Some things are
non negotiable, weighty moments, et cetera. But some weighty moments
(05:47):
we build it in and an effort to get us
in the best schematics possible. And so just know there's
a lot of layers to it. The circumstances are always
wanted defining components of the discussion, But sometimes situations dictate
no latitude. Sometimes situations dictate a lot of latitude in
(06:07):
an effort to get in the right call.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Okay, Alex Highsmith is back in the lineup today. What
does he bring to the team beyond pressuring and sacking
the quarterbacks?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know that's enough. But he is a very good
run player. He's an all three downs type of guy. Man,
He's a detailed guy. He has a hot motor. Certainly
in those one dimensional moments, he's delivered and delivered for
us in a big way. I'm excited about his return,
obviously because he's a quality player, but I'm also excited
(06:40):
about the growth and development of guys like Herbic and
his absence it just strengthens us as a collective. As
the rogue gets narrow, you know, as the road gets narrow, man,
we're gonna need contributions from all parties mentioned above in
an effort to get our desired results.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Do you when high Smith is in the line, how
do you see opponents having to deal with him?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
It depends on It depends on the matchups component of play.
There's intimacies in these divisional relationships, you know, tackles and
edge people for example, and so it depends on who
we're talking about. I challenge Alex to have intimate relationships,
just like I challenged Herbert to have intimate relationships with
(07:26):
these tackles, because let's be honest, TJ is gonna get
some schematics week in and week out, and it's all
about whether or not they're gonna be in max protection
and have schematics on both sides. And to be quite
honest with you, the less eligibles they have out one
dimensional moments, the more difficult it is throw the ball
vertically down the field. And so a guy like Alex,
(07:46):
if he's winning that matchup, if he has an advantage
in that matchup, it helps us as a collective. It
maybe doesn't help him as an individual in terms of
producing numbers, but it helps us as a collective because
that's one less upfield runner in one dimensional passing moments.
And that just speaks to the dominance and the brilliance
(08:07):
of TJ because he gets schematics week in and week out,
yet and still he still delivers statistics. But that's what
the elite guys do.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Today will be your third straight AFC North game and
it's a rematch with the Browns. What are the characteristics
of a division rematch?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
You know there's depths to those waters. Oftentimes, you know,
familiarity breeds contempt as they say there's a texture to it,
but I love it. There's intimacies in these relationships as
individuals and collectives. There's so much to talk about. I've
been challenging Patrick Queen de Minimize in Djoku in the
(08:48):
Rhythm passing game, for example. That's a significant matchup. And
they can't coexist in this division being who they are
without conflict. It's just a component of it. And those
are the type of intimate conversations you have, particularly as
you move into the second game in a series. And
that's why I love divisional play man. You know, I
(09:10):
played divisional games seventeen weeks the season. To be quite
honest with you, when.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
We were talking before the first Browns game, I asked
you about rivalries and you said, selfishly, I want to
have a rivalry with everyone in the division. I want
the Ravens to hate us. I want the Browns to
hate us. I want the Bengals to hate us. You're
not doing it at a high level unless you've got
some hate in your life. Was the hate in a
little one sided in Cleveland? And is it more mutual
(09:38):
for this rematch?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You know I'm not you know I'm not going to
pretend like we're interested in get back, because we're not,
to be quite honest with you. You know, we're building
this group to have a certain mentality that what we
do determines what happens in stadiums or what we don't do,
and so I'd be disingenuous if I made it about
(10:00):
get back. The reality is is that we didn't play
as well as we would like the last time, and
so it's about getting better for us. They just happen
to be the nameless gray faces that we're playing this week.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Is hate an emotion though that can be used for good.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Certainly, but you know, I generally like to use it
in terms of how people view us, as opposed to
maybe how we view people want to. I want to
take the mystique out of our performance. We determine how
we play. We determined the outcome of football games. I've
built this team that way, and so I'm not being
(10:37):
consistent in my words are actions if I approach games
any any differently, but based on the outcome of a
previous performance.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
One of the things you said at your news conference
about Brons tight end David n Djoku is that he
does a really nice job in Max protection. How do
they use him in max protection?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
They make sure that you're not blessed man. They help
their edge people their tackles, and if you're not blitzing,
then he gets out into a short route and oftentimes
he's an outlet for the quarterback, but he's an outlet
with some skills. He could take a four yard pass
and turn it into a fourteen yard pass, as he
did against New Orleans. They were in a two minute drill.
(11:22):
They were max protection. New Orleans dropped off into umbrella
like coverage. They dumped the ball off to him and
a three yard throw became a fourteen yard gain. And
you just can't afford to give up chunks like that
in a two minute drill. People are going to matriculate
the ball down the field on you pretty fluidly if
you're moving it like that, And that just speaks to
(11:42):
his special skill sets. He's evolved man into a top
quality blocker over his time in Cleveland, and his natural
skills really show up when they dump him the ball.
In terms of people trying to corral him and tackle him,
he is a problem because of his physical talents.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
In two thousand and six, when you were the defensive
coordinator for the Minnesota Vikings. Kevin Stefanski was on the
same staff as the assistant to the head coach. Did
you two have a relationship back then?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
We did. I enjoyed Kevin Man. He was a sharp
young guy. He was wise beyond his years. His father
was a general manager of the seventy six ers, and
so he just had a sport background. He was a
kid that kind of grew up in and around sports,
and I think it just created a wisdom in him
(12:32):
that was attractive to me. Plus, he was the Ivy
League educated, you know, he was a pen grad and
I had a desire maybe for my kids to be
Ivy League educated, and so we used to talk about
that continually, and it's just funny. Over the years, he
used to give me a little bit of crap when
we saw each other because he knew my son play
(12:53):
ball for Columbia and Columbia Penn in the Ivy League
really don't like each other.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
So when it comes to players, you often use past
experience or relationships with them to learn things about them
for competing against them. Moving forward, did you learn anything
about Kevin Stefanski that you have used or has helped
in this Steelers Brown's no situation, no question.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I was around him when he was very young in
the business and in the profession, and so I know
his foundation. I know his roots. I know the school
in which he comes from. He got trained by Brad Childress,
who got trained by Andy Reid, and so you know,
in competing with him now, I see very vividly in
(13:44):
a lot of circumstances the foundation of his approach to football,
just because I was around him at a when he
was at a very young age, and I know the
school of thought in terms of the people that trained
him in a very impressiable time this career. And so
but you know, I was on staff with Kyle Shanahan
(14:05):
when he was a quality control coach for John Gruden
and Tampa, and so you know, if you're in this
business long enough, man, it's a real small ecosystem. A
component of competing against someone and understanding someone is understanding
their roots. But I'm sure people say the same thing
about me. You know, I was raised professionally in this
(14:25):
game in Tampa under the Tampa two system and under
the leadership of guys like Tony Dungee and Montie Kiffin.
And so that defines and shapes me in a lot
of ways, which I'm sure my competitors understand.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
That's the Mike Tomlin Game Day Podcast. Subscribe and download
new episodes every week, and check out all of the
other shows we have to offer on the Steelers podcast
network that's available on the Steelers Mobile app, the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
He's the Mike Tomlin King Day podcast with Steelers Digest
editor Bob Labriola, Okay coach. A couple of weeks ago,
we talked about how field goals get blocked in the NFL,
and you pointed out that there has to be some
negligence on the part of the kicking team for that
to happen. What happened on the forty two yard field
goal the Bengals blocked last Sunday.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Without naming specific names, you know, Broderick Jones, Spencer Anderson,
there was some negligence on the play.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
So can you just explain what it is a little
bit more in detail.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Certainly, you know, we block an area, not a man,
and over the course of time, sometimes particularly if those
men have special traits or the big men or strong men,
sometimes people get distracted by individuals. But the base rule
for us as we block an area, not a man.
And to make a long story short, those two guys
(00:57):
probably got preoccupied by men as a posed to aerial
spaces and it led to some space that created an
opportunity for the block.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
After the game in Cincinnati and then again during your
news conference a couple of days later, you made it
clear that you wanted your defensive backs to be physical
with physical wide receivers. In your words, when we play shack,
we're gonna use our files. Who is that message for everyone?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's just a component of football that I believe there
might not be any more size difference in the game
than those big body wide outs versus corners in play
people that compete against each other down in and down out.
You got some of these guys walking around like DK Metcalf,
Mike at Evans, T Higgins. There's six four six five,
(01:46):
twenty two hundred and twenty five pounds. They're significantly bigger
than corners, and so you know, how do you combat that?
You know, I'm not asking officials to do anything other
than allow of guys to fight fire with fire. In
terms of style of play, I would imagine NBA guys
at the same attitude when they were defending guys the
(02:08):
likes of Shock. They're not looking for anything other than
right an opportunity to match physicality with someone whose game
at times is defined by physicality.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
CBS's telecast of the game made a point of the
number of yards after the catch your Eligibles had in
the win over Cincinnati. Can you coach run after catch?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Absolutely, it's as much a component of coaching as the
route concepts themselves. You know, there's a mode of operation
in terms of run after, depending on whether it's man
or zone, and so there's continual coaching regarding that, not
only in terms of the guy that has the ball,
but the corresponding routes that oftentimes end up in position
(02:54):
to make blocks. And so that's something that we're paying
a quite a bit of attention to. As a matter
of fact, we've got a coach and signed to lead
our charge in that area as Mike Sullivan. He's a
coordinator of run after.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
So is it more video watching, you know, in the
classroom kind of thing, or can you actually set that
up on the field.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It's continual. You go through your normal practice and you
execute plays and you use examples along the way to
illustrate what it is you're looking for. You talk about finish.
It's simply a component of a play and you just
want to take the mistique out of it. And that's
a component of it I'm talking about when I'm talking
(03:40):
about the corresponding routes and how people are maybe positioned
for blocks after the catches made.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Russell Wilson seems to be a good fit for this
team in a lot of different ways on the field,
off the field as a leader and a teammate. Was
there a lot of get to know between you and
him before he signed here?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
There certainly was, and it continued after we signed him.
We couldnt have unique results without real relationships, and so
you know, I've always been a firm believer in that
I worked hard to get to know him as much
as I could in the process, but certainly after he
signed here, that's when the real work began in terms
(04:22):
of us gaining an understanding of who we are as
individuals and professionals and goals, aspirations, fears, et cetera. You
see a world through a lens that's based on your experience,
and so I just wanted to get a sense of
how his experiences in a variety of places he's been
has shaped him, even going back to NC State transitioning
(04:44):
to Wisconsin. You know, he is probably one of the
original high profile transfers, which is kind of commonplace in
this game, but it was really unique when he came out,
and so there's a lot to get to know, just
like I'm sure he feels the same way about me. Man,
if you know, if he's going to be the on
(05:04):
grass leader and kind of represent the things that I
prescribe or the visions that I see, he doesn't have
an understanding of who I am and how my experiences
have shaped me.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
How much freedom does Russell Wilson have when it comes
to getting the team into the best play once the
offense breaks the huddle? Is it an either or kind
of situation or does he have the whole menu available
to him?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
It really is circumstantial. You know, that is a complex
question with a complex answer. But circumstances are a major
component of latitude or lack thereof latitude. Some things are
non negotiable, weighty moments, et cetera. But some weighty moments
(05:47):
we build it in and an effort to get us
in the best schematics possible. And so just know there's
a lot of layers to it. The circumstances are always
wanted defining components of the discussion, But sometimes situations dictate
no latitude. Sometimes situations dictate a lot of latitude in
(06:07):
an effort to get in the right call.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Okay, Alex Highsmith is back in the lineup today. What
does he bring to the team beyond pressuring and sacking
the quarterbacks?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know that's enough. But he is a very good
run player. He's an all three downs type of guy. Man,
He's a detailed guy. He has a hot motor. Certainly
in those one dimensional moments, he's delivered and delivered for
us in a big way. I'm excited about his return,
obviously because he's a quality player, but I'm also excited
(06:40):
about the growth and development of guys like Herbic and
his absence it just strengthens us as a collective. As
the rogue gets narrow, you know, as the road gets narrow, man,
we're gonna need contributions from all parties mentioned above in
an effort to get our desired results.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Do you when high Smith is in the line, how
do you see opponents having to deal with him?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
It depends on It depends on the matchups component of play.
There's intimacies in these divisional relationships, you know, tackles and
edge people for example, and so it depends on who
we're talking about. I challenge Alex to have intimate relationships,
just like I challenged Herbert to have intimate relationships with
(07:26):
these tackles, because let's be honest, TJ is gonna get
some schematics week in and week out, and it's all
about whether or not they're gonna be in max protection
and have schematics on both sides. And to be quite
honest with you, the less eligibles they have out one
dimensional moments, the more difficult it is throw the ball
vertically down the field. And so a guy like Alex,
(07:46):
if he's winning that matchup, if he has an advantage
in that matchup, it helps us as a collective. It
maybe doesn't help him as an individual in terms of
producing numbers, but it helps us as a collective because
that's one less upfield runner in one dimensional passing moments.
And that just speaks to the dominance and the brilliance
(08:07):
of TJ because he gets schematics week in and week out,
yet and still he still delivers statistics. But that's what
the elite guys do.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Today will be your third straight AFC North game and
it's a rematch with the Browns. What are the characteristics
of a division rematch?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
You know there's depths to those waters. Oftentimes, you know,
familiarity breeds contempt as they say there's a texture to it,
but I love it. There's intimacies in these relationships as
individuals and collectives. There's so much to talk about. I've
been challenging Patrick Queen de Minimize in Djoku in the
(08:48):
Rhythm passing game, for example. That's a significant matchup. And
they can't coexist in this division being who they are
without conflict. It's just a component of it. And those
are the type of intimate conversations you have, particularly as
you move into the second game in a series. And
that's why I love divisional play man. You know, I
(09:10):
played divisional games seventeen weeks the season. To be quite
honest with you, when.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
We were talking before the first Browns game, I asked
you about rivalries and you said, selfishly, I want to
have a rivalry with everyone in the division. I want
the Ravens to hate us. I want the Browns to
hate us. I want the Bengals to hate us. You're
not doing it at a high level unless you've got
some hate in your life. Was the hate in a
little one sided in Cleveland? And is it more mutual
(09:38):
for this rematch?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
You know I'm not you know I'm not going to
pretend like we're interested in get back, because we're not,
to be quite honest with you. You know, we're building
this group to have a certain mentality that what we
do determines what happens in stadiums or what we don't do,
and so I'd be disingenuous if I made it about
(10:00):
get back. The reality is is that we didn't play
as well as we would like the last time, and
so it's about getting better for us. They just happen
to be the nameless gray faces that we're playing this week.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Is hate an emotion though that can be used for good.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Certainly, but you know, I generally like to use it
in terms of how people view us, as opposed to
maybe how we view people want to. I want to
take the mystique out of our performance. We determine how
we play. We determined the outcome of football games. I've
built this team that way, and so I'm not being
(10:37):
consistent in my words are actions if I approach games
any any differently, but based on the outcome of a
previous performance.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
One of the things you said at your news conference
about Brons tight end David n Djoku is that he
does a really nice job in Max protection. How do
they use him in max protection?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
They make sure that you're not blessed man. They help
their edge people their tackles, and if you're not blitzing,
then he gets out into a short route and oftentimes
he's an outlet for the quarterback, but he's an outlet
with some skills. He could take a four yard pass
and turn it into a fourteen yard pass, as he
did against New Orleans. They were in a two minute drill.
(11:22):
They were max protection. New Orleans dropped off into umbrella
like coverage. They dumped the ball off to him and
a three yard throw became a fourteen yard gain. And
you just can't afford to give up chunks like that
in a two minute drill. People are going to matriculate
the ball down the field on you pretty fluidly if
you're moving it like that, And that just speaks to
(11:42):
his special skill sets. He's evolved man into a top
quality blocker over his time in Cleveland, and his natural
skills really show up when they dump him the ball.
In terms of people trying to corral him and tackle him,
he is a problem because of his physical talents.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
In two thousand and six, when you were the defensive
coordinator for the Minnesota Vikings. Kevin Stefanski was on the
same staff as the assistant to the head coach. Did
you two have a relationship back then?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
We did. I enjoyed Kevin Man. He was a sharp
young guy. He was wise beyond his years. His father
was a general manager of the seventy six ers, and
so he just had a sport background. He was a
kid that kind of grew up in and around sports,
and I think it just created a wisdom in him
(12:32):
that was attractive to me. Plus, he was the Ivy
League educated, you know, he was a pen grad and
I had a desire maybe for my kids to be
Ivy League educated, and so we used to talk about
that continually, and it's just funny. Over the years, he
used to give me a little bit of crap when
we saw each other because he knew my son play
(12:53):
ball for Columbia and Columbia Penn in the Ivy League
really don't like each other.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
So when it comes to players, you often use past
experience or relationships with them to learn things about them
for competing against them. Moving forward, did you learn anything
about Kevin Stefanski that you have used or has helped
in this Steelers Brown's no situation, no question.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I was around him when he was very young in
the business and in the profession, and so I know
his foundation. I know his roots. I know the school
in which he comes from. He got trained by Brad Childress,
who got trained by Andy Reid, and so you know,
in competing with him now, I see very vividly in
(13:44):
a lot of circumstances the foundation of his approach to football,
just because I was around him at a when he
was at a very young age, and I know the
school of thought in terms of the people that trained
him in a very impressiable time this career. And so
but you know, I was on staff with Kyle Shanahan
(14:05):
when he was a quality control coach for John Gruden
and Tampa, and so you know, if you're in this
business long enough, man, it's a real small ecosystem. A
component of competing against someone and understanding someone is understanding
their roots. But I'm sure people say the same thing
about me. You know, I was raised professionally in this
(14:25):
game in Tampa under the Tampa two system and under
the leadership of guys like Tony Dungee and Montie Kiffin.
And so that defines and shapes me in a lot
of ways, which I'm sure my competitors understand.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
That's the Mike Tomlin Game Day Podcast. Subscribe and download
new episodes every week, and check out all of the
other shows we have to offer on the Steelers podcast
network that's available on the Steelers Mobile app, the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
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