Patriots Catch-22 1/8: Moving On From Mayo, Coaching Candidates, NFL Draft Talk

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:30):
Patriots Unfiltered the world's original podcast. Patriots Unfiltered brings you
inside Jillette Stadium for rousing conversations on everything New England, Patriots,
and NFL. Join host Fred Kersh alongside Patriots dot COM's
Paul Parillo, Mike Desso, Evan Lazar, Tamara Brown, and Alex
Francisco as they bring you in depth coverage of the team.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
He's a red shirt rookie at that point, so it's
really that's his rookie season essentially too, So now we're
really not talking about them, really knowing.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Search for Patriots Unfiltered anywhere you get your podcasts. This
is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan Lazar
and Alex bar'lar.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Blazar from Lazar, Hello, everybody nailed it. He joined as
always by our Bara Risk. Here is Evan Lazar and
Alex barrs. So we do have a little bit of
draft news. Okay, Jalen Milroe has officially declared. Jeez, so
there's another quarterback on the board. I might have gone
back if I were him after that game this week,

(01:31):
but Evan wanted Alabama in the playoffs, so maybe he
feels differently but I still feel the same way. I
still would have taken out. They got a housed by Michigan. Michigan.
They didn't Vanderbilts, theydn't care about the game, cared enough
to play everybody. Michigan didn't. Michigan played their backups. They
weren't trying ja trying to. I was going to the draft.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
Just to just to poke them, just to poke them.
That is what we do on here and and today
is gonna be a real pos.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
This, This might be an all timer. This is gonna
be bun because this and I do want to.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
I wanted to start something else, but just really quickly,
this is you were and I philosophy.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Oh hold on, you want some uh breaking news here
from Tom PELLISERA Okay, what is it? Multiple NFL teams
have inquired about whether legendary head coach Bill Belichick would
reconsider his move to college football, including the Raiders, whose
new minority owner Tom Brady spoke recently with his old coach.
Per league sources, that's that's what you interrupted my dad
for Brady and Belichick. Cool, Sorry, all right, anyways, the.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
This is a our two philosophies just on football in general.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
This is colliding right here, right.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
This is the the Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, my Matt
Lafleur tight pants crew against a football guy. And this
is a catch twenty two, perfect dream scenario. If this
had to happen, these two guys been the top candidates.
Mike Rabel and Ben Johnson are the perfect top two

(03:09):
candidates for our philosophies. And how we differ in some
opinions here so's it's gonna be a doozy.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
But look, we've talked about this stuff a lot in
the abstract in the what three years now we've been
doing this show, seven years we've been working together. We've
talked a lot about this stuff in the abstract. We've
never talked about it with such immediacy as it relates
to the Patriots.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Oh yeah, I mean this is this is the decision
right now. Yeah, And then immediacy is a good word.
And I would just say, also, this is a major,
major decision for the direction of the franchise in which
way they want to take this thing. And the good
news is is that both guys there's no wrong answer
between Rabel and Ben Johnson. In my opinion, I think

(03:53):
we both feel this way.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
They're one A and one B. We just might have
that in a slightly different owner. I can't stress this
enough because we're gonna say this, then we're gonna spend
the next two hours riffing apart the other person's candidate, right,
I think either way? Can I can I start this
yere like it really comes? They both have unknowns. Neither

(04:17):
one is a perfect slam dunk Homer and candidate. I
don't think there is one. Yeah, Honestly, the closest thing
might have been Brian Davalden. He's going back to the giants.
There is. So they both have their what IFFs, which
we'll discuss over the next two hours. It basically comes
down to which ifs would you rather deal with? What
questions do you think are more answerable between these two guys.

(04:40):
What do you feel better about having as kind of
an unknown going into the twenty twenty five season and beyond.
So I'm with you. If they hire Rabel great, If
they hire Ben Johnson great, I don't really want. I mean,
Flores is an interesting one to me too, agreed. Outside
of those three guys, now that day balls back in
New York, I don't know that I have a ton

(05:00):
of interest in anybody available besides that. Frankly, yeah, I
think any of those three guys would be good options.
There is that a couple things. With Flores, you have
to wait first and foremost, right, a couple of weeks.
So Robert Kraft has talked about they want to go fast.
Their actions have reflected that, and that may be. That's
probably a factor. But between Johnson and Rabel and Flores,

(05:23):
any of them would be a good higher Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Okay, so that says the table. Obviously, we're gonna be
talking a lot about this. I do have a thought
on Drawd Mayo in the fallout of this situation with
Girod Mayo. I don't want to spend a ton of
time on that, but we haven't been on the air
since the news of his firing was announced, so I
do have a thought on that. And then we're going
to get into the coaching candidates and really peel this back.
But hey, Patriots fans, if you want to see Toyota

(05:47):
and down from no best job Milton Okay, I did
have Joe Milton on the agenda. Okay, all right, second hour,
when we have some time. I do have some Joe
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(06:07):
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to drink, easy to enjoy, but like the official beer
sponsor of the New England Patriots. So I want to
go backwards first before we go forward and talk a
little bit about Jirod Mayo and the situation that led
to his firing and all that kind of stuff. I
know there's going to be a lot of stuff out
there now. Chad Graff had one in the Athletic this morning,

(06:30):
you know, those pieces that shed light on how things
were behind the scenes. I think the biggest thing to
me with Girod Mayo not being ready for this position
is that and he told us this point blank, just publicly.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
He said.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Remember he used the line that I'm drinking from a
fire hose right now. So that was January February, Combine time,
right around their owners meetings, And when he said that,
I believe that Girard Mayo had a lot of ideas
and he actually mentioned this, I think, to one of
the broadcasts, one of the CBS or Fox or whatever,

(07:08):
one of those broadcasts. I believe that he had a
lot of ideas for what he wanted to implement in
a football program. And then he got the job and
he realized how much the job entailed, and how they
had to build a staff, and how they had to
catch up on the off season with free agency in
the draft and all these different types of things and
a lot of that stuff. He wasn't a to come

(07:31):
to fruition as fast as I think, what is what
the crafts had hoped and this is just my opinion,
but as fast as they had hoped that it would,
and it just didn't ever feel like he had control
of the position, like he had control of the situation
of the position, of all the things that went into
the position. And just as we move forward, because I

(07:53):
think now the more important story is moving forward, but
as we move forward here with the Patriots, the one
thing that I really feel strongly about that needs to
be done is whoever is going to come in next,
whether it's Rabel, Ben Johnson, Brian Flores, whoever, whoever is
going to come in next needs to rebuild the infrastructure
of the football program. And I'm not necessarily just talking

(08:16):
about like locker room culture. That's part of it, but
I'm also just talking about how they handle things from
a front office perspective, from a coaching staff perspective, like
you have to get the right coaches in here. You
have to get good coaches in here on all levels,
not just a coordinator level, but position coach level. And

(08:37):
I would also say that they have to get on
the front office side. They have to build a modern
front office. And I hate using the word modern, but
it's the only word I can really think of to
describe it. They have to get a modern front office
that is properly staffed, that is heading in the right
direction in terms of innovation and how teams are evaluating

(08:57):
and scouting, especially in the draft. And I'm not talking
about win probability models and I'm not talking about fourth
down decisions. But they are behind the curve, and we
know this that they're behind the curve when it comes
to analytics and a lot of the different things that
they use now a day's teams like the Chiefs, the Bills,

(09:19):
the Eagles, the Lions, like these teams are all using Minnesota.
They're using heavy amounts of in game tracking data analytics.
I'm not talking about win probability models and fourth down
decision making.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Are you just like switch, Why are you making that
hard for me? No? But that's everything I was gonna
come in and say, but this is really we're just
gonna talk about tight kaki pants and putting.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
In we will, but this, this type of stuff is
important and whoever the candidate is needs to have a direction.
And I believe when they made the higher for girod
Mayo and they made that decision, they thought that girod
Mayo is going to be more prepared and have more
ideas for that side of things. And this has to

(10:05):
be brick by brick literally with the practice facility being
built as we speak, this has to be brick by
brick for this organization because if you don't start practicing
and uh, you know, preparing the right way, and again
not just about literal practice, like also you know, preparing
for the draft, preparing for free agency and doing those

(10:26):
things the right way. Again, this is not going to
get turned around just because you have a hard bleep
coach versus a player's coach, right or you have a
Rabel or Ben Johnson. They have to turn this around
from the ground up. And I definitely think that this
football program was run by one person for so long
who could wear so many different hats and was so

(10:49):
talented at wearing those many hats that when he left,
When Bill Belichick left, there was just a lot of
things to fill that just didn't get filled quick enough.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
It's a hell of a take by you. Good job
you like you're gonna hear he use the word program
a lot today. Build a program, maintain a program, to
stay a program. And that's what that means. It is
more than culture, Like you want to get to a
point and this is way down the road, this is
gonna happen in your one but you lay the foundation
for it. And here when you want to get to

(11:21):
the point where it's a well oiled machine and it
kind of becomes self feeding right where. And this is
what Bill, more than anything else are as coach and GM.
He built a program. There was a routine, there were
core philosophies. Uh, there were pipelines, like everything was not
redund Yeah, redundant is the redundant in the word in

(11:43):
the sense that like if I'm trying to think of
an example of this, like there were there were fallback plans.
If a failed, you would be right there. Everything was streamlined.
That that's building a program. What are we looking for
in terms of the type of people we want? What
are we looking for in the types of players that
we want? What do we value? What are we putting

(12:03):
an emphasis on? It felt like under drawd Mayo that
kind of kept changing based on what the week was
and what what the narrative was around the team. There
was never a program in place. There was never the
foundation of a program in place. So you want and
it's gonna start from the coach. I know Elliott Wolf
is still here. Will he be here long term? Will
he still have final set? I want to get into

(12:24):
the final say thing, because I think that's important. But
this is gonna start with the coach, as it does
most places. You need a coach who can come in
and establish and start building that program. That to me,
I know people will say, Drake may is the most
important thing. You gotta do, it's best for him. I
think what's best for Drake May more than getting him
into bells and whistles. Offense is having a program around

(12:47):
him that is functional and will elevate not just him
but everybody in the organization. So when I look at
who should the next head coach be, who do I
trust to come in and establish that program and get
that program off and running. Yeah, and I understand that
side of it. Now. The other side of it is,
of course the football, and this is all football. But

(13:07):
this feeds the No, this feeds the football.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Right, This feeds the football, and the right football people
need to be back in charge of football. Yes, right,
And so that's a big thing too, I think with
the Patriots, So I guess the Patriots as well.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
What I would say is like, the stronger your program
day to day, week to week, month to month, year
to year, the easier your life is on Sundays. Yeah.
So this isn't a corporate Oh, you know, organizational structuring
and you know flow char build, But no, it's like,
like you said, all right, what is are how are
we going to attack each week? In terms of meetings,

(13:40):
in terms of practices, in terms of this what kinds
of players do we what? Not figuring out getting to
camp and suddenly realizing all right, we have four like
half options at left tackle. What are we gonna do?
It's this is what we want on a left tackle.
These are the guys who are gonna fill it, who
could fill it? This is Plan A, Plan B, Plan
C to attain these players. Right, That's what I mean
by program. It's this isn't corporate speak. This is how

(14:03):
are you operating Monday to Saturday, January to July. So
when you get to the actual football of it, you
can just hit the ground and do the football. That's
what I mean by program. And then that bleeds over
to to how are the practice? It's how are you
operating Monday to Saturday to get to Sunday? Right, that
sort of thing. That's what a program is. It's more

(14:25):
used in college, but it's this concept applies to the
NFL too. That is just what are the core forul's,
What are the core beliefs, What are the cornerstones of
the organization you're trying to build?

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Yeah, exactly, And it's getting more popular. I would say
in the league now that this is a bigger deal
than the x's and o's and getting somebody that's great
at the x's and o's because you see the success
of Dan Campbell, You see the success of Jim Harbaugh
program in year one with the Chargers. You see the

(14:55):
success of some of these coaches that aren't specialists on
one side of the ball. Now at that being said, well,
you can be.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
A specialist on one side of the ball and still
be a program builder, Like it's early in Minnesota. Well no,
but I would say Kevin O'Connor, it's early. So let's
see what that program. So part of the program thing
is like. And this is where I go back to Bill.
We'll get into this more about the coordinators. Right. Yeah,
So I really like the program that they've built Minnesota.
Part of that is the defense is great. Yeah, it's

(15:25):
an out and O'Connell's done a great job at the
offense and all that justin Jefferson, but it's one of
the best defenses in the league under a donald they
have been with an offensive coach. Big part of that
is Brian Flores. Let's see what it is, right, So
do you have instead of having to go out and
scramble and get a defensive coordinator from outside to us
to learn all the ins and outs and is going
to make changes and potentially get the reset button and

(15:46):
things like that. Did your program produce a pipeline as
they did here for years and years and years, from
Romeo Curnell to Genie to Dean pis Is in there,
Patricia Flores Right on the offensive, one's easier to due.
I don't why I did the defense, but because it's
there was more stops. Honestly, that's true. But like, let's

(16:08):
see if if Kevin O'Connell's program has produced a pipeline
on the defense where Floora's out, next guy's in, boom, seamless.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
So I agree with you that Minnesota is a good
example of that. Now we have to mention that with Minnesota,
Quezi is a big, big part of that. Their general manager.
I'm not going to try to pronounce his last night
because IM going to, but so I'm just gonna call
him Quezi. He is a major, major part of that,
on the personnel side of building this program, right, And

(16:38):
Quezi is an analytics guy and he's.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Also a full a football guy.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
But he's you know, he's got his hand in both buckets,
which is becoming a lot more popular from that side
of things. Now, with all that being said, when we
start to unpack these two candidates, Rabel and Ben Johnson.
And I do want to put this out there that
my personal belief is that this is Mike Rabel's job,
if Mike Rabel wants the job. I do not necessarily

(17:03):
believe that this is a full fledged open process.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
I think that there's.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
A strong indication that Rabel is the guy. If he
comes in here on Thursday tomorrow and says I want
the job, we want you, we could this could move.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
His job to lose basically. And look, maybe Ben Johnson
blows them away, maybe they're underwhelmed by Mike Rabel's pitch.
But I think as things stay and right now, like
he's the he's the leader in the clubhouse.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yes, And I think that there's a there's a school
that says Ben Johnson has been the number one offensive
minded Guru candidate for two cycles in a row, So
we at least need to hear this guy out right,
you know, as they should they should to hear him out.
I am not and it's not me carrying any water.
I am just not that upset that they're not gonna

(17:56):
do some search that includes fifteen different candidates, Like, I'm
not that upset about it.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Now.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Do I think that the Pep Hamilton in the in
the Byron left which of it all was a little bit, Yes,
But I am not upset that they're not calling in,
you know, Mike Kafka and Todd Monkin and uh Drew
Petsing and you know all these other names that are
being floated around because I Aaron Glenn, you know, I'm
with you.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
I think it's Rabel, Johnson.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Flores are the only three guys that I really have
a ton of interest in, and all these other guys like, yeah,
it's always great to hear a differing ideas in different perspectives.
But if we're gonna be real and we're gonna be
serious about who's truly a candidate for this job, it's
those three men.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
If they want to move fast, like they say, they do,
talk to the real options, the real options, and by
all reports, they are one of, if not the most
attractive job out there. So you should have your pick.
The best candidates this cycle with Brian Dabag going back
to New York are Ben Johnson, Mike Rabel, and Brian Flores.
They can't talk to Flores for two more weeks, so
because of the way they talked to the coaching search.

(19:00):
They can talk to him virtually next week after the
wildcard round, but they can't even put in a request
until now, and they can't, so that's why there has
to be in person until after the divisional. Johnson's in
virtual two.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yes, yeah, he's virtual, but because they're on the buy,
they can interview him virtually this week.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
So no, I'm with Now, Look when we get to
offensive coordinator defensive coordinator, that's another question that should be
very wide ranging.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
So I disagree to an extent. Well, some it depends
on who the coaches if if Mike Rabel comes in.
And this is another criticism that I had of the
girod Mayo move was that there was really no girod
Mayo had no Rolodex to pull from. Basically, all the
new coaches that came in with the Patriots last year,
Alex van Pelt, Jeremy Springer, Jerry Montgomery, Drew Wilkins, like

(19:51):
those guys were all Elliott Wolf connections. Jeremy Springer went
on the radio as recently as like last week and
said he didn't even know Gerrod before he got here.
It was Elliott Wolf that was his connection. We obviously
know Van Pelt was a wolf guy. So one of
the things that are appealing to me with both these
candidates is that Mike Rabel has had a year. You know,

(20:13):
he's consulting with the Browns, but he's had a year
to reset and build a staff and say put out
feelers to coordinators on both sides of the ball, who
are who's coming with me? And Ben Johnson's had really
three cycles now to make sure that he has that
and down too. And there's some rumors like Mark Brunell
maybe is offensive coordinator move. I know that would be

(20:37):
testy and.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
I for a number of reasons.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Now, I don't know if this changes things. With lou
Ana Mariumo getting fired by the Bengals, him and Big
Lou spent a lot of time together in Miami on
the Dolphin staff, which, by the way, have you ever
just side note real quick, have you ever looked at
that Miami Dolphin staff.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
I did this. That's absolutely Washington was Joe Golbin was
the head coach for most of it. But it's Dan Campbell,
Ben Johnson, lou and Marumo uh the new the interim
coach in New Orleans. What Rizzy, Like there's like four
head coaches on that it's that Washington staff. It's the

(21:18):
same thing.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yeah, so there's a lot of connections there with that
Miami staff in terms of Ben Johnson of guys that
maybe he could be bringing Big Lou Rizzy if he
doesn't get another job, which he probably won't, teams coordinator,
he could be the special teams coordinator here. And those
things are to me are so appealing. And why the
move with Gerard Mayo was made, because what was the

(21:40):
pivot with Gerrod? Right, Like, he already went through a
coaching hiring cycle once in terms of his staff where
he really was flying by the seat of his pants
and didn't have a ton of options. So what was
the pivot in terms of offensive coordinator? Maybe you could
have gotten josh on here, but now that's a weird
I want to say Josh McDaniels, But that's a weird
sort of dynamic there. So these guys should come in

(22:02):
turn key, like they should already have a very very
short list of who they're considering for these positions.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
And let me be clear with Rabel too, because I
think some people are missing this unless they saw the
sports supposing the clip of me saying this everywhere this morning,
Mike Vrabel is not. This isn't Oh, You're just going
back to the Belichick tree. No, Rabel as a coach
is independent of Bill Belichick, almost entirely. So he was
hired in at Ohio State when Jim Tressel was like there,

(22:35):
but he was suspended. Luke Fickle was the interim. He
then worked for Erben Meyer. He goes to Houston where
he works for Bill O'Brien, So that's as close he
got to the Belichick tree, but it is another program,
is Bill O'Brien's program, which did differ from Belichick's program,
and Houston made different connections there, goes to Tennessee. He
had Dean Peas as his defensive coordinator. But besides that,

(22:57):
just for a couple of years, Shane Bill really not
And I think P's was like the only Patriot stat
guy who had been here who was high level on
the coaching stat completely different. The front office was different.
But I would not want him bringing John Robinson here
and I don't think he will, so I'm not too
worried about that. And then he went to Cleveland where
he worked for Stefanski, so he may have more in

(23:17):
common at this point with Elliot Wolf than Bill Belichick. Look,
he learned a lot about football from Bill Belichick. I
think as a player you more learned the culture side,
which is important in the search. But he's he's been around,
he's independent of bell Check in terms of the coaching tree,
like it's he's He's had his own path, he's made
his own connections. He's been separate to that. So I

(23:40):
think I don't think it's like, oh another retread. Look,
could he bring back Belichick? Guys? Sure, I know he's
kind of There's been some rumors that maybe Josh McDaniels.
I wouldn't love that. I wouldn't hate it. I'd rather
see him go back to that offense he was running
in Tennessee with Arthur Smith and Matt Lafleur. You saw
what that did for Ryan Tannehill, who I think has

(24:01):
some physical comparisons to Drake May. So Drake May's obviously
a much better player, but Drake May and that offense
would intrigue me. You got to you know, they had
Derrick Henry, but you make adjustments. But it's not gonna
be Rabel suddenly bringing back all these guys that were
here for twenty years. There's gonna be a couple. There
might be some guys that were here like Vrabel as

(24:22):
players but have their own independent coaching backgrounds. Wes Welker,
for instance, he overlapped with in Houston. But he's gonna
have It's not like draw to your point where it's
just all right. He was here in New England. He
knows the guys who were here in New England. There's
a much vasus. He has a much more vast network. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
So when I was at the Senior Bowl last year,
I actually bumped into Mike rabel Uh and he was
there as a coaching free agent at the time. He
hadn't signed a contract with the Browns and I didn't
speak with him or anything, but I just noticed he
was there. And when he's there to network, right, he's

(24:59):
there to talk to executives, to talk to coaches, to
network and make connections and build build relationships so that
when he gets his next crack at it, he has
a Rolodex to then go to and say this is
what I want, you know, these are the people that
I want to work with. These are this this is
my staff, these are my coordinators, so on and so forth. Yeah,

(25:21):
so all that is intriguing. Now we disagree a little
bit on the direction in terms of Rabel and Ben Johnson,
and I want to unpack that. We've been texting about
it back and forth, trying to save it for the show.
So I guess my biggest issue, and like you said,
both of them have issues, have concerns, and that every
there's no perfect candidate.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
They're all going to have concerns. So my biggest issue
with Rabel is that I worry about the overall direction
of the offense. I worry about Drake May's development because
he is not coming in. Rabel is not coming in
specifically to run the offense or call offensive place I

(26:03):
hope not. Ben Johnson, on the other hand, might have
some of the experience program building things that we can
talk about in terms of his concerns, but what I'm
definitely sure of is that he's going to run a
damn good scheme, right, And so you have the model
of Shanahan, McVeigh, Lafleur, O'Connell, McDaniel, Mike.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Well, yeah, sure, if you want to go down the
rabbit hole. But we can go down the rabbit hole
on the culture side too, And for every Dan Campbell,
there's Doug Peterson, right, So it goes both ways. My
point being this, if you look at the teams that
are winning Super Bowls and are competing for Super Bowls,
a lot of those teams have the tight pants guy.

(26:50):
It's just a fact, right, It just And I know
Andy Reid is his own I'm not I'm not counting
any Reid, but that's a big part of it. And
a big part of it is Drake May. And what
I worry about with Rabel. And you can make the
argument that he just played this way because he had
Derrick Henry and that was what fit them best. But

(27:12):
I don't want to turn a Drake May into an
under center, turn around hand the ball off in a
two back set to the running back and then like
every three plays, we're gonna call play action and get
him on the move and make it let him throw
it down the field. I want to build this offense
around Drake May. I want him to be the engine

(27:32):
of the offense, much like Josh Allen is the engine
of the offense in Buffalo. And I worry about with
Rabel that it's gonna be a little old school. And
I'm not necessarily saying old school in terms of it's
gonna be Belichickian.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
I'm just saying old school.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
That it's gonna be a run first offense, play good defense,
be sound in all three phases, and we're gonna win
Game seventeen to quarantine.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
I think that. I like, I get that, and I
know I just said the Tennessee offense. Obviously, you're it's
that overarching idea, but you're you're building that around Drake
Man when he's better in Tannehill, so you have him
do more things than Tannehill did. Of course, you have
Drake May. You're gonna have your pick of your offensive coordinators. Right,

(28:15):
what if you hire rabel So he was in Houston,
he was in Tennessee, he was in Cleveland. Those were
three different offensive systems. Essentially, it is some overlap between
what he's doing in Tennessee and what he was doing
in Cleveland, but there's differences there. I don't see him
as a guy that's going to be married to one
offensive system. I think he's going to do what he

(28:38):
believes is best for the offense, what's best for Drake
may like, I don't think he's married to we have
to be this identity on offense because he's a defensive coach.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Fair the question that you have for Abel when he
sits down at the table, because I'm you're not worried
about all the stuff that we just talked about for
the first twenty minute.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
No, you're you're not worried. You're worried about the offensive coordinator.
Which who's your coordinator?

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Higher and if it's Josh McDaniels, Okay, but how is
Josh McDaniels going to bring that offense to the twenty.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well to me twenty twenty five? Which Josh McDaniel's offense,
remember me? Like, is it the Brady offense? Or is
it the Cam Newton offense?

Speaker 3 (29:18):
I mean the Cam Newton offense I think was done
out of desperation, Like, I don't think that that's truly
who Josh is.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Like Josh Josh McDaniels is Brady mac Jones. Okay, what
he tried to do in Vegas? But different was was there?
Did we see Josh McDaniels could develop a run game
for a quarterback? Yes? Or no?

Speaker 3 (29:35):
We did, But again I don't know. I don't think
that's his preferred route, but he did it.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
He did it. That's and I wonder maybe that's part
of it. Maybe if Rabel says, McDaniels, you talk to
McDaniels and you said, all right, is this gonna be?
You know, is it? Are we gonna try to turn
Drake me and to Tom Brady or are we gonna
have some of these other elements in here like you
had with Cam Newton. You know another guy that's been
floated as Tommy Reese, who I'm not a big fan of,
but he's kind of done some more modern things. He

(30:05):
was at Alabama with I think he was there with Bryce,
he was there with Milroe. So he's done some of that.
And this gets to kind of my other point about Rabel.
And when you get to Rabel verus Ben Johnson again,
I think are both good candidates. Right, Let's say you
don't get it right with Rabel on the offensive coordinator higher,
Let's say the first year isn't good. You can move

(30:27):
on from the offensive coordinator. Let's say you hire Ben
Jons and you find out in a year he can't
do the program stuff. That's a much harder pivot to
make so I do think Mike Vrabel can find the
right offensive coordinator because he did it in Tennessee. He
built a good program in Tennessee, and he was able
to find not just one, not just one. But when

(30:50):
Matt Laffler left, he was able to identify Arthur Smith
and get to the next guy.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
But I pushed back a little bit on good offenses,
Like he had a good offense in Tennessee that was
not a super Bowl caliber offense.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
No, but they had Ryan Tannehill. Okay, Drake May, Okay,
but I love Drake May. You know that. But he's
still got a lot of developing he does.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
So that's that's going to be part of it, right
And now you know we're talking about things about his
Drake May's whole development in year two here, So let
me ask you a year, you know, the footwork changes,
what is he going to be? You know, his eighty
five percent of the time he threw a pass from
shotgun this year, that's not a very high percentage of
under center. Is a coach that comes in like McDaniels

(31:32):
are a West Coast coach that isn't Alex van pel
gonna want to run it more?

Speaker 2 (31:36):
From under center.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
We know McDaniels is gonna want to come in and
be under center, two back, full back in the backfield
and ram it down people's throats.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
We know that that's the type of offense he's gonna
want to run.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
And that's exactly what Rabel did in Tennessee. So that's aligned.
So I just I just.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Looked he was he was in Cleveland last year, he
had experienced with a different offense. What if he calls
a glec Josh McCown.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Okay, So then the issue with Josh McCown is that
he's already getting some buzz to be a head coach
this cycle. So he comes here, he calls plays, he
looks great doing it, and then you're looking for a
new offensive coordinator in twenty So this is this is
where the program builder element comes in. In one year, you're
gonna build a pro. You're gonna get a coordinator ready
to replace McCown in one year.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
He replaced Matt Lafleur in one year. It was longer
than one year. Wasn't pretty sure it's just one year.
I was looking before the show. Let me double check it.
Just I think it was just one year. It feels
to me like that it was just one year. He
came in twenty eighteen with the flour Well flour left
after the twenty eighteen season. It was Arthur Smith for
two years. Okay, but what was the stealing of those offenses?

(32:39):
Like REALI but those offenses had Ryan Tannehill.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
Okay, but we you keep saying that, like Ryan Tannehill
was some bum in Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
He's like bum in Miami.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
And Ryan Tannehill played really good football in Tennessee. If
Drake May puts up Ryan tannehill numbers, then we got
a superstar on our hands, because you're gonna look at
him differently than you look at Ryan Tannehill. You look
at Ryan Tannehill's box score stats in Tennessee's like thirty
five to seven touchdown Interesting, he's.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
An MVP can one of those years. But that's my point,
you look at We can't just assume that Jake May
is gonna be gonna do that. He was my point.
You can't do that with Ben Johnson either.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
But I have much better faith than Ben Johnson's scheming
an offense, and so I just again, this is what happens.
We know this is what happens. They're they're gonna continue
to cycle through offensive coordinators. They've done it in Buffalo.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
I also like Buffalo is dealt with that too, And
so here's Josh Allen got to the point where he
was quarterback proved or see. So that's the other thing
with the cycling through coordinators. I think people are maybe
and I know I'm the guy that always talks about
make it as easy as possible in the quarterback and
I do still believe that, but specific specifically about a
young quarterback, right the faith quack, so he is right now.

(33:46):
But first off, on the account thing, Ben Johnson has
been this this generational candidate, yet he was in Detroit
for three years.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, because he held his water like it's different, Like
it's the same thing with Demiko Ryan.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
But I think that's what a lot of these guys
are doing now. It slowly did it and it hurt him,
but slowly did the same thing. So the idea that
any offensive coordinator is going to be done one and
done because of Drake Man is not a guaranteed okay
years Okay, so you get two years with that coordinator. Again,
this is faith in Vrabel's program. Yet you you ideally
have the next guy in the pipeline, So two years,

(34:22):
one coordinator, two years and next coordinator. Now Drake may
has been in the league for six years. He should
be able to handle it. At that point in the
re is if your pipeline is strong enough, you're gonna
continue to pull guys from your system where the offense
isn't going to be changing a significant amount, if at all.
So if you have that pipeline, you don't need to
worry about losing guys because the system, the approach, the

(34:45):
program is the same. You know, Evan, You know, I
feel strongly about this if I'm willing to use Buffalo
as an example in a positive light.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
But Buffalo Buffalo isn't. It goes both ways with Buffalo
because they've You've.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Wanted the Patriots to be the Bills for years. Rabel
makes them.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
The Bills, but he but they fed it up at first.
They hired Ken Dorsey and the Dorsey Hire in twenty three,
which barely made it halfway through the season. They fired
him in season and replaced him with Joe Brady, but
at that point that basically cost them a run. But
they cost them to run out of Super Bowl that year.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
But at that point, Josh Allen, who's to say that
the same would half with Ben Johnson a defensive coordinator.
The it happened in San Francisco this year, defense fell
apart because who did they hire Brandon Staley for some reason? No,
he was and even their defensive corn he had a
role in that defense. Maybe not by title, but he
had a role in that defense. Don't don't, don't move
the goal busts by the time, by the time, well,

(35:39):
those advisors are going to be important, We'll get to that.
When you get to Ben Jonson's He's like there, Ben
Mackett by the time, how that go. By the time
that they made the door, see mistake, Allen had been
in the league long enough and developed long enough that
he survived it. And did it cost them a run, Yes,
but they're gonna continue to have a chance to go
on runs because of that talent.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
And now so now Joe Brady's gonna get a head
coaching job, and they're gonna be replacing another.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Quarterator and you hope that the program is strong enough
to bring that next guy. So there's thing I think
Rabel's better program building than Sean McDermott. That's why I
keep thinking the Bills will fall off. To me, Vrabel's
a better version of Sean McDermott, much better version of
Sean McDermott. So if if you just get that first
offensive coordinator right to me, and that's not an insignificant

(36:23):
if I acknowledge it's a big if. But if you
get that first offensive coordinator right, I think you're often running.
If Rabel builds a program comparable the one he built
in Tennessee, because I trust him to, because he you know,
this is what we saw Bill do for years. I
trust him to identify not just the offensive coordinator, but quarterbacks, coach, receiver,
tight ends coach, offensive line coach, pass game coordinator, run

(36:45):
game coordinator, whatever it is. Like I think they tried
to do this year with Alexander Pelton T C McCartney.
Like if Van Pelt, let's say this year had gone well,
if Van Pelton got hired, away, it was all lined up.
But Van Pelt was never gonna get hired. Like let's say, hey,
he's twenty years into let's say he did. Then TC
McCarty was lined up to be the next guy, and boom,
it seamless. And to your point, van Pelt wasn't gonna

(37:06):
get hired away. What if Vrabel finds that guy?

Speaker 3 (37:09):
But but van Pelt though, that's the point though, is
that to me that would have been moving too quickly,
right if Van Pelt got hired away after one season?
TC McCarty was not ready to be the coordinator. And
this is exactly what happened with Bill at the end.
Was that really the gun there was no pipeline. No,
that's not true. The pipeline was Achille. But Josh McDaniels

(37:32):
took a job that Bill was not expecting him to take,
and Nick Kelly was not ready.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
So I think the idea that it's gonna happen in
one year, I'm not as confident that you lose the
coordinator in one year. I'm just not I I don't
think the ceiling for the offense is that high because
of the personnel, and we all know that, like Josh
McDaniel shouldn't have been hired at that point. I think
that's kind of become clear now by the Raiders. So
my bigger concern though, and well let me ask you

(37:57):
this too, who's to say that Mike Vrabel can't find
his Ben Johnson. Who is Ben Johnson? When Dan Campbell
hired him.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
It's a hot commodity Ben So Ben Johnson? What makes
him so appealing to me?

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Along with just the receivers coach in Miami?

Speaker 3 (38:13):
He I mean he coached every position in Miami. He's
quarterbacks coach, wide receivers coach, tight end's coach, and then
he went to Detroit coached tight ends there for a
couple of years, which is the position to coach, by
the way, in terms of because you're dealing with run
and pass games. So if you're gonna be on the
coordinator track, a lot of those coordinators McVeigh. Those guys,

(38:34):
they start as tight ends coaches and then they work
their way up to coordinator. We know, in my opinion,
I kind of am worried that Mike Rabel is gonna
have a ceiling. I think Mike Rabel's gonna get you
to a really nice floor. Yeah, and you're gonna get
You're gonna hire him. He's gonna bring respectability, he's gonna
bring professionalism, he's gonna bring accountability. He's gonna be a

(38:56):
very very good CEO coach and a culture builder and
all the program stuff and all that's all well and good,
but I believe that that's going to have a ceiling
long term.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Well, but isn't that what Drake mays for to then
get you to that next level? Isn't that the ing
the superstar quarterback if they let him. I think Rabel
understands the modern game enough to do that.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
So I am concerned that the Mike, that's a nine
or ten win ceiling, which is not to.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Say if you're gonna say as a Niner ceiling, no, no,
you want it nine or ten win season. And I
hired that. I won twelve games in Tennessee. Yeah, it
was such a that was like there was all sorts
of sun. No, no, he won twelve. The AFC was
weak that year and he all he won it. And
Brady's last year with the Patriots, he flamed. He won
twelve games in Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
Okay, he won twelve games one year in his six
seasons in Tennessee. Was throw him a parade, like do
you you have to there's there a ceiling to it. Yes,
there's a ceiling to it. That's where you showed that
in Tennessee. Okay, But if you got higher. You are
not taking any risks with Rabel. You know what you're getting.
It's a floor higher, and in my opinion, I think
you're going to be a really solid football program. I

(40:06):
don't know what your ceiling is with Mike Rabel, With
Ben Johnson, you run the risk of it flaming out.
You run the risk of it being a disaster. I
acknowledge that. But the upside is Shanahan, McVeigh, O'Connell. It's
super Bowl team. That's the upside.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
I don't see why the upside keep with the personnel.
So I think coaching sets the floor. Talent sets the ceiling. Right,
So this is where we get in to the elliot
wolf of it all. And I said earlier like I
want to know who has final say And that's the
other part of this. Who's either one bringing as their
GM or whatever it is. It's not gonna be a
GM because they just don't have gms here, But like,
who has that? We did this last year. I don't

(40:43):
care what the title is. Six people in the room.
Three want Abdul Carter, three want Will Campbell. Who gets
to put their fist on the table and say my
vote counts is too we're getting my guy right. That's
that's the other unknown here. So I have a thought
on that, but sorry, and it's it's gonna be different
with Rabel or Johnson. If, like Rabel says in the meeting,
I want John Robbinson, I say the guy that traded

(41:06):
aj Brown, and then I call Ben Johnson, right, So
like there's that element to it. But I think talent
sets the ceiling, and they just need to get the
things you said respectable, professional, accountable. They need to get
back to that they cannot afford to not get back.
They also need to score points, which they haven't done
in four years. So Drake may can't help them score

(41:28):
for the course, but it shouldn't be all on the
second year quarterback to help them score points. No, that's
that's where the personnel guy comes. You're not gonna gotta
get that guy help.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
So now it's all on the talent. Like if yes,
they're not going I said this, they're not gonna win
like that. You're not gonna win with twenty points a game.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
I said this before they I've been saying this since Ocatobe.
I think I've been saying it since start of the year.
Were there coaching issues this year? Yes, absolutely, moving on
for May it was necessary. But if we were to
list the biggest issues facing the twenty twenty three Patriots,
twenty twenty four Patriots, and twenty twenty three twenty twenty
four Patriots, at the top of that list was roster talent.

(42:07):
So that has to improve. And I I think Ben
Johnson comes in and just spins his wheels like and
just just focus on the offense and the scheme. And
so many of these guys think the schemes above the talent, right.
We know essentially that your guy, Kyle Shanahan feels that way.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
So here's a difference between these two candidates. The biggest
difference between these two candidates with Mike Rabel. If the
Patriots hire Mike Rabel, I'm giving the keys to Rabel.
It's Rabel's shows when it comes to final say on
the roster. I'm not necessarily giving him all the personnel power.

(42:49):
I still want him working in conjunction with a general manager.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
I would want an experienced front office executive. Who's your
guy from New York that you like Ryan Cowden. Yeah,
I'd still like somebody who's been in front office it
because Rabel's never negotiated a contract, right, So like, I
still want a guy like that, but I'm I'm okay
if Mike Rabel's final say, I'm not giving Ben Johnson.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
So this is the difference in the higher right. The
difference is that Rabel is coming here to run the program.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yes, it is his ship. He's he's the all encompassing guy. Right.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
If I'm hiring Ben Johnson, I'm hiring Ben Johnson for
two main reasons, to run Drake may like it's his
develo and call offensive plays.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
I'm gonna hire two things that other people can do
with Mike Rabel's the head coach, not as well. And
so then you don't know what's to say. He can't
find Ben Jonson.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
Know that you do know that, you know he's not
gonna be as good as Ben Johnson. Ben Johnson has
literally been the top candidate for two straight stycles because
of this, Okay, or he fights all these Guyshan McVeigh, Lafleur, O'Connell,
Brady's shortly, Ben Johnson shortly. What do they all have
in common? They're head coaches. They're going to be head coaches.

(44:04):
So unless you're gonna tell me that Mike Rabel has
some secret diamond in the rough.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Tommy Reese is going to be the new You just
named a bunch of guys like it seems like the
NFL coaching machine factory is churning out tight pants, khaki guys.
Go find your so, go find a random one.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Well, you just named like ten guys. Okay, Well give
me a better, give me a dang good name. And
I don't want it to be Josh McDaniels. I'm sorry.
I love Josh McDaniels. I love the guy. I think
he's a good coach. I don't want it to be him.
It needs to be somebody that's going to bring this
offense to the modern era. It's got to be somebody
that's gonna run something that's innovative. It's got to be

(44:46):
something that's gonna run somebody, something that's gonna put defenses
in cone that are gonna leverage Drake.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
So I don't want to overload Drake May with the
Josh McDaniels offense, But you want to drop him into
one of these complex schemes. How is it complex? He's
running RPOs. You're talking about the innovative.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
And that's not complex that none of these kids have
been doing that since high school. Nowadays, you have high
school offenses that are running these types of things, like
he was running this at Myers Park, like you know,
with the coaches down there at North Carolina. He's running
this at UNC with their air raids. You know, I
know they hate when I call it an air raid,
but it's an air raid.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
You know they've been running it down at North Carolina.
This is what they run nowadays. They don't run an
old school Earnhard Perkins offense like the Patriots used to
run twenty years ago. These are the offenses that these
young quarterbacks are growing up running, you know, so like
it's not complex to them to read out an RPO
or a read option play or to send a guy
in motion, Like these things aren't complex to these kids anymore.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
This is what they've been doing their whole football lives.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
What is complex to them is we're gonna put you
under center, We're gonna drop you back seven step drop
play action, fake turn, back around, make a throw. I
know that sounds rudimentary to a lot of people that
have been watching and you know, covering football, and you know,
observing football for fifty years, to these kids, it's not
they don't do it. They don't go under center, they

(46:07):
don't shotgun, they don't play action pass from under center.
They don't run seven and nine steps.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
So if this is what everybody's running, how hard is
it to find somebody who runs it as a coach?

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Harder than you think, because you have to It has
to be the right guy, and the right guy meaning
what he has to be a good coach, It has
to be the right guy is not going to be rable,
So they have to find the right guy to put
in that position. And with Ben Johnson, what I would
do is that at that point you definitely need to

(46:40):
hire a true general manager because he you want the
general manager to do all of the program building. I'm
putting it on the general manager.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
I still think you need somebody on the coaching staff
who can do that too. So you gave me Sean McVay,
who had Wade Phillips. He has talked about being able
to help. So you're gonna ask me who Mike Rabel's
coordinator is. Who is Ben Johnson's Wade Phillips. I'm gonna
give you two names I don't want to hear. One
is Luayna Roma. Why not because he's never been a

(47:10):
head coach. He's never run Okay, that's the whole point
of having this guy. He was literally very close to
being a head coach. He's very close, very nice, he's
a big Wade Phillips Phillips, very close to being a
head coach or he's been a head coach for like
a decade. The other name I don't want to hear
is Robert Sala because, just like we're talking about but

(47:32):
just to talk to the viewers, just like we're talking
about building this thing around Drake May on offense, I
also think you kind of need to do the same
thing on defense with Christian Gonzalez. I have zero interest
in turning Christian Gonzalez into Sauce Gardner. That's an insult
to Christian Gonzales. I want them running man coverages. I
don't want them doing Seattle three. I want them running
a big boy defense. And like, is that unfair to say,
like they should be treating all the conversations around right

(47:54):
now around Drake May, build it around him, develop him.
Shouldn't we also be saying the same about Gonzales on defense. Yeah,
so that's why I'm out on solid all right, So
no saw I.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Was Also, he's even getting a head coaching job in
second or he's going to San Francisco so be their
defensive coordinator.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
There's no Sela is not coming here. So I want
a guy who has been a head coach before, who
has been around this league for a long time. Who
is because this is what we don't know. Can Ben
Johnson set up his own program. He's doing none of
that in Detroit that is filled in spades. It is
filled in then some by Dan Campbell.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
And Dan Campbell's not calling plays or designing the offense.
I'm not the number one seed in the NFC.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
That's not entirely his seventh ranked defense in the league,
and boy, those guys are bought in and.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
The seventh drank defense in the league. Their defense is
completely falling apart since all the injuries came apart.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
And so there's scoring.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
Yeah, but they're scoring forty points a game to keep
winning football games.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
And there's guys bought in and it's been sustainable and
they didn't just do this for.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
What, So.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Zero credit for that.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
He gets zero credit for the fact that that offense
is dynamite and they clearly have taken a team Ryan
Tannehill quarterback ask Jared Goff and has turned him into
an MVP candidate. And he gets zero credit for that
because I am not giving any of that credit to
Dan Campbell. Because Dan Campbell's doing Jack Squad, He's talking
about knee caps and you know, crying after games. That's

(49:18):
what Dan Campbell's doing. Ben Johnson is the one that's
does designing the offense. He's the one that's calling the plays.
He's the one that's doing things that people have never
seen before executed at this level as high of a
level as that what they are doing, like they're running
hooking ladders for crying out out for forty yard touchdowns,
like you don't see that every single day. So he's
the one that's doing all these types of things. So,

(49:40):
but you're not giving him any credit for the confidence
and the energy that that offense plays with none.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Not Like the confidence energy the offense is different than
building a program. So I flip it back to you,
Mike Rabel when he was in Tennessee before they screwed
up and traded AJ Brown.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Oh okay, so aj Brown did completely tanked the entire ten. Yeah,
oh my god, tenth tank That program is Ryan Tannehill age.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
They had a top five offense in the league. So
rabel isn't get credit for a top five offense in
the league, then I'm fine if he doesn't, But then
Ben Johnson doesn't get it's an unknown. It's an unknown
with Ben Johnson. The culture element, the program building element
is an unknown. He's never had to hire coaches. He's
never had to like schedule out a full game week.
He's never had to truly like, yes he does the

(50:25):
offensive game game, but you've never done that big picture.
You're saying this like he's drowed Mayo and he's not
draft Mayo. He's been assistant coach for fourteen years, he's
been a coordinator for three years. Different because I've been
But you're saying this like he had and I Rob
McDaniels was a coach for a long time.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Yes, Josh mcdaniels's issue as a head coach wasn't what
you're talking about. Josh mcdaniels's issue with this absolutely was
his personality. His issue as a head coach was not
what you're getting at which is the things like you know,
programmed saying.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
How do you operate within the building day to day
on a person on a personal person basis, Right, that's
the That was mcdaniels's problem. That was also from by reports,
And I don't know if this is true, but by
reports that was Brian flora is his problem in Miami.
Took just one player, but it.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Was personality, right he I think Ryan Fitzpatrick used the
word that Brian Flores became a dictator that in Miami.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
I'm not so no, that's the okay, we have no
clue and Flora's has been a coach for a long
time and there was no indication that players here loved him,
loved him. There's no We have no idea what Ben
Johnson could step in and be a dictator. Ben Johnson
could step in and have no control of the rope.
Ben Johnson could step in and be the greatest leader
of all time. We don't know. There's no way to know.

(51:44):
And after a year of complete uncertainty in terms of
the direction of the program, to hand it over to
a guy who is an unknown in that regard to me,
I'm not saying it's not a risk Worth. It's it's
not entirely never called the defense. It's not it's not
red delicious to Red Delicious, but maybe it's red delicious

(52:04):
to Granny. We're still the apple. No, it's not.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
You're not still in the apple family. You're you're in
a different fruit like I don't think so. His experience
pales in comparison to Mayo's. Not only was he an
assistant coach, he did it the right way. He was
an assistant coach for ten years. Then he became a coordinator.
Then he called his own offense, Then he designed his
own offense, then he game planned his own offense. He
did all of those different things. And I'm with you.

(52:28):
If they hire Ben Johnson, they have to hire a
defensive coordinator who is experienced, who has run the side
of the football, Patrick Grant.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
But he's not just a guy that's but it's not
just a guy that's running defense. You who is he
going to? Why can't you this morning? Why can't he
hire an associate head coach? Why who? Okay, who probably
Joe Philben great Joe fill We're put in the organization's
faith in Joe Philbin.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
No, you're putting the organization's fate in Ben Johnson, like
you're talking about a guy that's saying how much how
much a sounding board as someone that can you know,
give him ideas or in.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
How much of an from Ben mcadu's Joe Filden, because
that's what Ben mackett they The guy we're describing is
what Ben McNew I think was supposed to be this year.
Knew that wasn't enough.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
But Ben mcado also specifically specialized on doing it on offense,
like he was a senior offensive assistant. I am talking
about hiring someone you know has done it before. That's
a true you know.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
So why not hire that guy to be the head
coach and then the have that guy find the guy
who can call plays and design plays. Because if you
get the head coach higher wrong, you you're really in it. Now.
If you get the offense because you're higher wrong, that's
not great, but it's easier to change the great.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
You're really under selling that. It's not great. He's gonna
completely mess up drake man.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Okay. As opposed to getting the head coaching higher wrong,
how is that getting the head coaching higher If the
guy can't establish it, I'll give you Mike McDaniel. Players
are asking out of Miami left and right, and they
they do win some games. He's what three and fifteen
against teams over five hundred. They haven't won a serious
big boy game as long as he's been there. That's
different to me. How is that this is the same

(54:15):
guy because they Mike McDaid with Ben Johnson three years ago.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
It's because I don't think Miami's built their team correctly.
Miami has built their team from the outside in. I
want to build the team from the inside out.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
To be okay with that. Yet, what do you kind
of line do you thinking of? Because Detroit the offensive
what do you mean he didn't build that. Chris Bielman
built that. They want the receivers and they want the
toy They're ridiculous. Why do you think that he knows
why they're successful? So I'm sorry not having a line
and their line is not that bad, and their defensive
line is great. Not having a line is Miami?

Speaker 5 (54:48):
No?

Speaker 6 (54:48):
Come on?

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Their defensive line is not dead gas rush man. They
can get after the quarterback.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
But every single time they get into a tough game
against your playoff caliber opponents, they get run on every
single time. They can't play in cold weather, they can't block,
they get the quarterback hurt.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
All that being able to That's why they're gonnat this take.
But I know I'm right. Not being able to play
in cold weather is in part a reflection on the coach.
Him doing that ridiculous stuff about wearing the turning the
temperature down in the bubble and wearing the long sleeve
shirt and say he's got throw ice cubes at people.
That's reflection the coach. That's a soft team. They can't go,
that's a soft team. That's a soft team. That is

(55:23):
a reflect the coach.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
And if Ben Johnson has learned from Dan Campbell, who
he's currently under, so I have to assume that is
who he is learning from. You are telling me that
the Detroit Lions are a soft football. They're gonna mimic
that he's gonna be Mike McDaniel.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
That's what I'm asking in the interview. How much of
Dan Campbell's leadership style do you plan to emulate? But
it's not even just that can he pull it off?
There were a lot of guys here that went elsewhere
and tried to emulate Bill Belichick, but they weren't, Bill Belichick.
You can't fake the The one thing he's not gonna
do is faking peronality. He's not gonna fake Dan Campbell's

(55:58):
person Okay, but that's part of where that buy in.
That's part of where that toughness comes from. No, the toughness. Also,
you can't just having Penny Sewell. You can't just ask
him to come here and bring all the best parts
of Dan Campbell with him and leave all the parts
you don't like behind. I don't like any of the
parts of Dan Campbell. That's the problem. Like I don't care,
I don't need but if that's his but please don't

(56:20):
bring Dan camp But you acknowledge it to beginning, the
program building and the leadership is an important part of it.
So you're hiring this guy to come build a program,
and your argument is he's seen this great program build
under Dan Campbell. If you don't want him to be
anything like Dan Campbell, then what's the point.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Because I don't nonnowance between actually executing the plan and
checking the boxes of what we're talking about from the
program side of it and personality. I just don't want
his personality to be like Dan Campbell. I don't care
if he's he can still do the other stuff without
being Dan Campbell like that, that's very doable. You don't
have to have his personality.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
But his personality matters. Again, I go back to to
to Mike McDaniel, like I don't.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
So you you picked Mike McDaniel, who is probably like
the worst one out of all this the Shanahan Tree.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Group, there's one and there he's stuck around.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Okay, but there's there's other ones that are are excelling.
But we just have to point to the one guy
that isn't Like I just you can look at you
can look at the Dan Campbell's of the world, the
big time culture builders of the world, and there's plenty
of guys in Dan Campbell.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I would say the guy of the Mike Rabel mold
that is having the least success that we talked about
as Sean McDermott. And you've wanted the Patriots to be
the Bills for years now. See I I look at
the Bills as the apex of what they could be
with Mike Rabel and no, the Lions are the apex
of what they could be with Mike Rable.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
No, I disagree. I think the Bills are because the
Lions are not built. Their offense is not being elevated
by their quarterback. There are their their scheme in their
entire thing is elevator.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
So what happens if you put a really good quarterback
in that scheme?

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You take Ben Johnson,
you bring him here, you put Drake.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Man, Team Rabel, find an offensive coordinator that has some
sort of you think they're just done with offensive coordinators.
There's no more innovative offensive coordinators. There's like, if you
don't get Ben Johnson, you'll never get an innovator. Ever. Again,
I think it's possible. You don't try this all. It's
not how the NFL works. I just haven't heard the name.
It's not Tommy Rees. I'm sorry you you haven't right. Well,
the guy for Ben Johnson's not Joe Philbin. I'm sorry, Okay,

(58:26):
Well I was. That was one name that connected to
Joe Philbin. They were. Reality is the guys you're looking
at for rape the guys the guy you're looking at
to support Ben Johnson needs to be one of those
household name kind of guys. Because you need a guy
that he's not just taking over any NFL team. He's

(58:46):
taking over the New England Patriots. There's a spotlight here,
there's a pressure here. You're only getting in a few
other spots. It's not Detroit's in the spotlight. But that's different.
That team was bad for a long time. The expectations
he's gonna have to manage her different. You need a
guy who's been through the ringer, who's been in front
of one hundred campers, who's been pressed with the tough
questions to lead him through that. When we talk about

(59:08):
the guy to support Mike Rabel, we're talking about a
guy who's a tight ends coach somewhere right now, or
an offensive line coach, or an assistant this or an
assistant that is not a household name kind of guy
that doesn't necessarily make one better or worse, but one
name should be easier to pull off top of your head,
and in the other I think.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
It's easier to find than Ben Johnson guy, because the
Ben Johnson guy is all those types of guys are.
Let's face it, they failed as head coaches in the
league and are now just consulting or aiding with guys.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
There's plenty of those.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
There's plenty of coaches that have gotten fired or that aren't,
you know, directly coaching right now for whatever reason.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Yeah, I just I hear you. There's probably a Joe
Brady or someone along those lines that's out there, and
we are the problems NFL guys. We didn't even go
to college. Okay.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
But the problem is is that to me, is that
Drake Mayson a different part of his development than Josh Allen.
Was Josh Allen when Brian Dable left, was already three
four years into his development. We're talking about Drake going
into year two of his development. So your concerns about
Ben Johnson being inexperienced from the culture side and from
the team building side, my concern is that the coordinator

(01:00:16):
is going to be inexperienced or he's going to be
a retread, which I have no desire to do.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
So if you hire a college coordinator, or you hire
a thirty five year old Joe Brady who has really
never called plays before, never ran offense, he is now
gonna be paired with a second year quarterback and now
we're inexperienced. Right, Both quarterback and OC are inexperience.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
It's the quarterback and the coach are inexperienced if it's
Ben Johnson. But Ben Jones is not inexperienced with calling
the offense. But there's so much more to it than
calling the offense. There's so so, so much more. It's
not the same.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
And why can't we properly support Ben Johnson this time around?
Why can't we get with with the legitimate front office executive,
Ray Agnew, who's been around. Okay, Ray Agnew is your
general manager, which I think is where this is trending
for Ben Johnson. And you bring in somebody like a
Joe Philbin who has coached in the league before. I know,

(01:01:11):
Joe Philbin isn't the Super Bowl winning coach. If he was,
he would probably still be a head coach and still
be Okay. I mean, look, I Wade Phillips is a
great coach. I think Lou Anamo and Patrick grahmm are too.
Great defensive coordinator candidate.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
But it's not just about managing the defense. To me, though,
it is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
All I want is for him to hire That was
Draw's mistake. He hired inexperience all over his staff. Grod
Mayo needed experienced coordinators and not Alex fmpeld had the
years of service, but it never call plays. I think
if lou Ana Arrumo comes here with Ben Johnson, lou
Ana Arumo has been calling a defense for half a decade.
Now he's going to be head coach defense. He's going

(01:01:51):
to have that under wraps. He's not calling plays for
the first time. He's not DeMarcus Covington in his backyard
simulating games in the springtime. He's done done it before,
and he's he's all set. Ben Johnson's got the offense, big,
who's got the defense?

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
That's it? Like, I don't understand where where you're like say, inexperience.
It's not a bad the day to day Who in
that building has run an organization day to day? Agnew Hassen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
So then why does any other then why does any
other team hire our first time head coach? Like if if,
if it never works with Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay,
who was like thirty three when he got the Giants.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Can be done the right way. I think there is
a right way to do that. There is a right
time in place to do that. McVeigh made a lot
of sense that kind of had some pieces in place already.
They brought in They brought in Wade Phillips. I think
some of these other teams they had a strong culture
in place, right If it had so, I was I
last year would have made more sense than this year

(01:02:49):
because the Belichick culture was in place and you had
those leaders in the locker room and you had those guys.
It would have made more sense because you kind of
hope Ben Johnson piggybacks off of that. Now you need
a full in total reset, and so I think you
want somebody who has proven in the past that they
can get that out of an organization. Why do you
want to ruin my fun because it's not what it's about.

(01:03:11):
It's not about you having fun watching film on Monday
with your pants off. It's about getting back to a
super Bowl.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
Because scoring thirty a game with Ben Johnson isn't going
to get them back to a super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Wats a team in the league score thirty game, don't
get to Super Bowl? Okay, well, lots of team only one,
only one game, and it doesn't matter exactly. We take
if you score thirty game for one year, but the
culture sucks and everybody wants out and you have to
blow the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Come on, there's a scare thirty plus a game with
the culture sucking that doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
That doesn't happen. How many points of games Miami scoring
here hurt when two has been in? How many points
of games Miami is Miami been scoring? They score a
lot of points. I just I'm not all soft to
go back to the top. That's because the coach to
go back to the top. Yes, I don't think you
want I don't think this is I don't think Ben
Johnson's a bad higher. I don't think Ben Johnson's bad

(01:04:01):
higher said, it's such a top take. You want your
your hard nosed football guy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
If you see Mike Rabel and training can't put on
the pads and get into the trenches and rush the passer.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
On the sky. I don't want the coach too.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
You want him to say and his introductory press conference
that we're gonna start biting knee caps and.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
No, because I don't want him to be a fake Dan.
I wanted to go up. Yes, I'll say I wouldn't
say we're gonna be a tough, physical football team. We're
gonna be accountable. There's gonna be leadership, and we're gonna
build this thing back up the right way. That's what
I want to see. You shortcuts, no shortcuts. If they win,
if they win every game twenty eight to seventeen, great,
that's awesome because they're winning the games. I don't care

(01:04:42):
about style points. Nobody should care about style points. You
covered a Bill Belichick team. You watched a Bill Belichick
team for your entire care stop points on defense as
much a they had him on offense. Don't you forget
you can get style points on defense too. Here's my
point I think you are. Here's I think you are.
Here's my point. I don't think Ben Johnson would be
a bad higher because he is what's best for Drake May.

(01:05:05):
Is he what's best for the entire organization. I don't
nobody's what's best for Drake May. But if you hire
Ben Johnson, yes, you have not answered the most pressing
questions of the girod Mayo era. Those are still unknowns.
Maybe they get better under Ben Johnson, but they are
still unknowns. A better coordinator than You're not hiring him
to be a coordinator a coordinator, hiring him to be

(01:05:28):
a co and I'm hiring him to ride to the
football team game. Hey, buck stops with him. He is
the boss.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
So Kyle Shannan's a shitty head coach, is what you're saying.
Sean McVay is not a good head coach. Kevin O'Connell's
I think Sean McVay, none of these guys. Matt Lafour
is not a good h so, okay, hang on, none
of these guys figured it out.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
I've said for a long time, I think Kyle Shanahan's overrated.
I've said that. I'm on the record with that. I
will stand by that in the Super Bowl every other
who else did you say there before McVeigh Because I'll
give you my take on I like O'Connor. Let's see
what he can do. I think it helps that he
is Brian Flores. O'Connell might be a culture builder. O'Connell
might not. I don't know whether he is or not.

(01:06:08):
I just don't think taking that risk right now is
the best option with Mike Rabel available on Sean McVay.
A couple of things. Sean McVay is the unicorn in
my opinion, right is Sean McVay the ceilingers he the
exception of the rule. I think he might be the
exception of the rule. In expecting Ben Johnson to be
Sean McVay might be fools Erron. Why is Sean McVay

(01:06:28):
the exception of the rule? Wise he had the successity
out one. I think his time with Wade Phillips was
very important, and that was very important his development as
a head coach as a leader of a football program.
So you tell me who he's gonna learn that from,
It's not loui An Rumo, because he doesn't have the
experience in that regard that that Wade Phillips did. The
other thing, it took time. It took Sean McVay a
few years to get to where he is now. Is

(01:06:51):
Ben Johnson not really? Yes, it did. They got that
boost they had in eighteen then they kind of fell
back down and he'd have built it back up again.
Is Ben Johnson going to have that time in New England?
In terms of pressure on the organization? There might not
be two teams that are more polar opposite than the

(01:07:12):
New England Patriots and the Los Angeles Rams. Is Ben
Johnson going to have the time to learn what he
needs to learn. Robert Kraft said the other day he
still thinks straw and you know, some of this might
have been playing policies, but he said he thinks straw,
you know, in time can get there. But they needed
to turn this thing around fast. Is Ben Johnson gonna
be afforded the time that he needs that Sean McVay

(01:07:33):
was afforded to get the where he needs to be.
I think most coaches, most guys can get to this
level if given the time, can be decent. The NFL
is a patience problem. But is that guy getting that
time here?

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
So the difference to me and then I do want
to open it up because we're gonna rant and rave
about this in circles forever. And I should also mention
for the seventeenth time, you're gonna end up getting your
wish because Mike Vrabel is gonna be the next coach
of the Patriots. Just my opinion, but I think that
that's what's gonna happen anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
So this is well, then that's all the pressure on
me because you if he doesn't work out, you get
to tell me I told you so all you want
when freaking you know, and if he doesn't work out,
O Larry and Curly to be his offensive coordinator. Hang on,
if we're going by age, let me give you a name.
Let me give you a name. This could really be
for either of them. Okay, so hang on Kyle Flood,
Oh my gosh, like, what what do you wanted?

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Let's just run, Like, why don't we go back into
nineteen forty and run the week?

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
You know Kyle? Yes, I know Kyle Floder, the offense coordinator.
I don't know where he was now, Okay, with Miami.
I think you're thinking of somebody else. I don't think so.
This is actually so. I wouldn't hire a Scott. Oh no,
he was in the NFL very briefly. He was with
the Falcons. Okay. He has been Steve Sarkesian's offensive coordinator
at Texas since twenty twenty one. It's fifty three years old.

(01:08:46):
All right, it's not that old. I'll take it. I
don't know that i'd hire him, but like my point,
like you can go down all these different rabbit holes.
There's more people available at coaching level than you realize. Okay, well,
one more name, Holman Wiggins, because I have to bring
him up every time in Alabama, the one guy that's
saving for whatever reason when he's at A and M Now, yeah, okay,
so you you we digress because we're going to argue

(01:09:07):
about this in circles. If this process continues, we're going
to continue to argue about this in circles. I don't
think it's continuing that long.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
I don't think so either. So that's where we're at
with the cord, the coaches. It's no wrong answer in
my opinion, but I definitely I just want to see
this Patriots team and this Patriots offense specifically. I would
like to see the Patriots modernize and innovate on offense.

(01:09:35):
I think that they've tried it for too long now
to run schemes that were twenty years old, right, and
I think that they need to get into a scheme
that is going to bring Drake May along and it's
gonna do all that sort of thing. So I think
Ben Johnson is a guy for the time and let
me that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
Would be one of my first questions to Mike Rabel.
That really the question, what's your plan on offense? And
if he says, Josh McDaniels are gonna turn Drake May
and or Tom Brady, I would be hesitant and you
take a lot longer look at it if he says,
you know, I was in Cleveland and I kind of,
you know, networked around the league, and I here's some
guys I have that are up and coming and they

(01:10:12):
worked in these systems in Detroit and San Francisco and
Green Bay, and I'd like to bring them on and
kind of get them started. Then there you go. Then
that like, I don't think Mike, I don't think it's
safe to assume Mike Rabel won't go for that more
modernized offense. It might not be putting the right tackle
in motion, but happy there's a happy medium between that

(01:10:37):
and you know, the old school Josh McDaniels off.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
So the last point I want to make on Ben
Johnson and then I promise for there's a lot of
emails and calls.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
I know, I see you all there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
I'm sorry, but we had to get this off our
chest because we've been arguing about this off the air
for three days. So now this is fun because I
don't like that we yelled at each other. I don't
like to yell.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
I do like that we yelled at each other.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
But the last thing I would say about Ben Johnson
in support of him is that with Girodmeo, one of
my biggest concerns going in and what ended up happening,
was that even though he was a defensive guy, he
didn't have the experience to truly own the defense right
in terms of being a coordinator and a play caller
before where the defensive side of the ball was going

(01:11:19):
to be. You know, Demico, Ryans, Sean McDermott like, this
is my defense.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
He didn't have the ownership of the defense, and I
don't think they wanted him to. I don't think that
was ever the plan, right.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
So that's why they're gonna hire a vaible because they
want the CEO. They saw it with Bill. I think
they saw it with Parcels.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
I think they want that guy, even if Rabel is
the CEO. Yeah, I want him hands on with the
defense like Mayo wasn't right. I want him doing what
Bill did and going over the linebacker huddle and getting
on the white board. And I want the same from
Ben Johnson. On the offense, he was sinking and so
he didn't. I don't believe he was able to really
sink his teeth into the defense the way that maybe

(01:11:56):
he envisioned doing because he didn't realize the breath of
the job. He didn't realize all of the other things
that were going to come with the job. Now, when
you hire Ben Johnson to be your coach, you know
that you're hiring the whiz kid, right, So you're hiring
a play caller. You're hiring him to run your offense.
So then you have to properly support him to allow

(01:12:17):
him to do what he does better. Well, you need
to make sure that the job doesn't suddenly become too
big for him. And there's no way to know until
he's in it. Like I'm not saying he is or
he is, and I'm saying there's no way to know.
And that's the risk in hiring him. If he knew, great,
he'd be the obvious choice. And that's why it sucks
that Brian day Ball went back to New York because
I think we'd both probably he's sitting here pounding the
table for Brian Daball if he was available. So with

(01:12:40):
in with Rabel, yeah, you have to find like he's
going to manage the organization, he's gonna be involved at
the defense. But you don't want him being hands on
with the offense. You've got to find somebody who could
do that and do it at a level that's appropriate
to the asset that you have in Drake may fair enough.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
I last thing it just with with Mayo when it
came to his firing, yeap. Ultimately, I believe what got
him fired was the messaging coming out of the building
right and just, and I think within the building right
in just the control of the situation. If he if

(01:13:16):
it was just the football, as bad as the football was,
Don't get me wrong, because we lived it. It was
bad as bad as the football was. If he had
controlled the messaging in and out of the building, the
press conferences, the july of eye of it all right,
if right, if he's able to control all of that,
I think he would have gotten the second season. I

(01:13:37):
think you would have gotten an opportunity to grow into
the job. But for me personally, because as you know,
I'm more on the x's and NO'SE than on the
culture side with the x's and no's. If I felt
like Drod Mayo was a great defensive coordinator, not necessarily
a great head coach yet, but a great defensive coordinator
that could run and own that side of the football,

(01:13:59):
then I would have been open to giving him a
second season. But he never showed that he had the
chops to do that. He never took ownership of the defense,
and he never gave us any indication that what they
were doing on defense was gonna work, whether it was
the fundamentals of the defense or it was the scheme.
It never took on a Girodmeo identity where I could
say and point we don't even be right, but we

(01:14:21):
can't point my finger to and say that is cool,
that is neat, that is good, that sound, let's keep
doing that. They never got to that point on defense.
I don't know if Ben Johnson's gonna be ready to
do all the things that you're talking about, which you're valid.
I opened the show saying all that was valid.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
And let me be clear, I'm not saying you can't.
I'm just saying it's an unknown and that's the risk,
and it's you're not answering the biggest questions of the
Dard Mayo er. You're enough.

Speaker 3 (01:14:48):
I don't know if Ben Johnson can do that kind
of stuff right. The difference between him and Girod Mayo.
I know for a fact the offense is gonna rock, right,
you know imally it's gonna be clean. So I'm not
gonna be worried about what does this guy do well?
Because that's what it got to at the end of
girodd I remember, I think it was on Unfiltered somebody
called in and the four of us were asked, what

(01:15:08):
does Girod.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
Mayo do well? Dead silence right, We did not have
an answer. We thought it was controlling the locker room,
and then we kind of found out late that that
was it. No, like I will be able to say
Ben Johnson kicks out, this might be the best way
to put off. I think if you hire Ben Johnson,
like if you hire either way, it's an upgrade. There's
a reason these two are the top two guys available.
If you hire Ben Johnson, you're steeled. You're still dealing

(01:15:31):
with the biggest ifs of the drawd Mao era. If
you hire Mike Rabel, you're still dealing with the biggest
IFFs of the end, the very end last two years
of the Bill Belichick era. So basically, where do you
want to be do you want to be at the
end of the Belichick and Rabel's not as good as Belichick. Obviously,
Belichick is the program builder maybe in any sport ever,

(01:15:52):
at least professional sports. But like, do you want to
deal with questions about the offense or do you want
to deal with questions about the culture and the direction
inside the building?

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(01:16:48):
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Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
Something to do with furniture? I think it's like, yeah,
side part of the furniture, furniture. I know it's a
furniture part of it. It's no, I thought it was
the opposite pole. I don't even know stuff that holds
starts with you. You acted like I was crazy for
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(01:17:29):
and fabric or leather covers. The word also refers to
the materials used to upholster something. Okay, and that's that
all right. Let's get to what's William Shakespeare famous for.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
Let's get to the phones, and hopefully everybody's hung on,
because I know we've been leaving you on hold.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
Based on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
I think the people enjoyed it, all right, Patty is
an aguon what's up, Patty?

Speaker 7 (01:17:51):
What's going on?

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
Gentlemen?

Speaker 7 (01:17:52):
Ev, and I just got to say to you that
was a beautiful transition to the ad. First and foremost,
I want to go over a couple of things, and
then you know, it's off season, so I'm gonna end
with a couple questions, as I always do. We had
a caller call in to pee you yesterday saying how
he'd be happy was either guy. And I'm kind of
in that same boat. If I brutally honest, I am

(01:18:16):
leaning more towards Brabil and it does I get a
side with Alex. It has to do with a little
bit of the unknown. But I also like Ev and
I I think Brabel is smart enough to know the
kind of asset that Drake May is and I mean
a piece of smart does he thinks he is and
everyone thinks he is. He's gonna see the talent and
knows that he that's that's the you know, that's your

(01:18:38):
ace of space, That's that's your trump card, that's that's
that's your lottery ticket. That's the guy that's gonna bring
it home.

Speaker 8 (01:18:44):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Great way to put it, Patty, great way to put it.

Speaker 7 (01:18:48):
And and I like I do like I would parallel
him more with parcels than with Belichick, because I think
you I I think everyone in the media is going
to eat up Rable at the podium because he's gonna
have some smart ass remarks and be you know, a
little stardonic and sarcastic and but but that has nothing
to do with like the product on the field. I

(01:19:08):
just like every other fan, I want the product on
the field to be better, and I think with either
of these two guys, it's going to improve within a
couple of years, all right, So I want to I
want some uh, I want some input on some players.
And the first Alex, get your pen ready, because I
want you to write it down so they don't forget.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
I'm on my computer in front of me today.

Speaker 7 (01:19:27):
Saw all right, there you go, buddy. So the first
guy I want to know, or it's only one player.
But then I have a question on our personnel. So
I wanted to get your guys' opinions on poon A
Ford if we're gonna kind of run the same the
similar defense that we've been running for the past, you know,
however many years it's been as a nose tackle. I

(01:19:47):
think he's a good player. I think, honestly, I'll want
to just kind of flush these turds like Jelani Tavai
and Devin gotschat on the toilet and cut some of
this dead weight. And do you guys think that's question one?
Question two is some of the contracts that we signed
last offseason, do you think not just cutting guys, but

(01:20:10):
do you see us possibly moving on, like trying to
trade some of these guys with either guy coming in
with Johnson or Vrabel coming in. If if it's one
of those two guys, and I'll take it off air,
And who are those guys? If we do cut ties
with some of these players that we signed the long
term deals last year, that's all I got. I'll take
it off air.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
Guys.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
Yeah, I definitely believe that some of those circle the
Wagons Belichick era, Girodmeo era guys aren't necessarily safe if
with this new head coach, because it's not gonna be
his guys right talking about well, I would say, you
know some of the guys he mentioned Godshaw, Jelani Tavai.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
I thought you're talking about the guys signed extensions last year.

Speaker 3 (01:20:52):
No, I don't think any of those guys necessarily It's
also difficult unless you find a trade partner to get
out in some of those.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
They're probably a year away from being able to get
out of most of them, right.

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
But I do think those Circle the Wagons guys in
the locker room that they kept around, that they held over.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
You know, I don't necessarily say.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
This as a as a knock like. I'm not saying
that they're bad players. I'm just saying that those those
lunch pail guys were specifically lunch pale guys for this regime.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
Yeah. Right, we talked about this last year and it
didn't end up happening because it was this you know,
same defensive coach. But yeah, new coach comes in, he's
gonna want his guys. He's gonna wan. This goes back
to program building, right, whether it's Ben Johnson or Mike Rabel,
there are players in the league that they know can
come in and set a tone and you know, they'll
kind of show the way they want it to be done,

(01:21:43):
and they're gonna go out and get a handful three
four five of those guys probably either one and it's
gonna be different players, whether it's Vrabel or Johnson, but
they're gonna go out and they're gonna get those guys,
and the previous culture guys are probably gonna be looking
for new jobs. What do you think of Punifford. I've
always liked this game. Yeah, he's a good player.

Speaker 3 (01:22:04):
Yeah, a solid nose tackle. I definitely think that they
need to address the defensive line and free agency. I
don't think you need to waste dress see a free agent.
So I don't know off the top of my head,
but I wouldn't think he would be brought up if
he wasn't. I do think you can address the defensive
line in free agency and bring in just some replacements

(01:22:25):
and maybe some upgrades and younger players for a guy
like Dietrich Wise, Daniel Qualley, Devon Godshaw. I think Gotshaw
is still playing very very well, so I wouldn't necessarily
put him in that category as quickly. But I don't
necessarily believe that they're gonna have the luxury to address

(01:22:46):
an interior defensive lineman in the draft. I know we
get a lot of questions about guys like Mason Graham,
and then.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
You can get I mean defensive tackles specifically. We talk
about this every year, like you can get good nose
tackles later because yeah, interesting, but right, I think what
they really need, uh in and that interior is if
they're gonna continue to be too gapping, which I think
they probably would Underrabel, uh, they need some ends that
can really play all situations. Yeah, like Barmore is one

(01:23:14):
of those guys, hopefully when he comes back. But they
were you know, Jeremiah Farms, Daniel Qualley, Dietrich Wise. Those
guys did their best, but they just run defense and
the ability to stop the run up front, the fundamentals
that play blocks things like that.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
It wasn't good. It wasn't good enough. So you have
to look at guys that can upgrade there. All right,
let's get back to the phones, and it is Nate
in Ohio.

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):
What's up? Nate?

Speaker 7 (01:23:41):
Hi?

Speaker 5 (01:23:41):
How's it going?

Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
Guys? Good? Thanks for holding on.

Speaker 5 (01:23:45):
So I just have a question, is far in the
draft even if like at four, if Travis Hunter was there,
would it be crazy to think about them possibly passing
on him to take Will Campbell or Kelvin Banks. And
then would you guys think that they would maybe sign
like Will Fries or Trey Smith and free agency and

(01:24:07):
kind of just shure up the offensive line. I think
that would help Drake May and also help out the
run game, and I'll take that off their I appreciate.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
It, thanks, Nate. I do not.

Speaker 3 (01:24:17):
I now put Travis Hunter even more on the table
because I'm going to have more faith in the next
head coach to figure Travis Hunter out.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Yeah, but he's not going to four.

Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
No, I don't think so either. But if off the
off chance that he does get to or I'm just
gonna assume it's gonna be Mike Rabel, don't you have
a lot more faith in Mike Rabel figuring out drafts under.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
This is one of those things Like I said this
with Caleb Williams last year. Though, if Travis Hunter falls
to four, shouldn't that tell us something? If a guy
that talented gets passed up by three talent starve teams,
doesn't isn't that a red flag to you? Yes, So
at that point, find somebody really wants him, trade it,
get a haul. I'm not saying I wouldn't take.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
Him, but at that point, it's because teams are afraid
of where is he playing?

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
What you know?

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
And that happens you know well, and usually happens with
lesser prospects, right, but it certainly he.

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):
May go into every meeting and say I'm playing wide receiver.
Don't draft me if you don't want me playing wide receiver,
and teams may say, no, we see he as a corner.
Look if I'm the Patriots and I see him as
a corner and he says he's gonna refuse to play corner,
I wouldn't draft him. Yeah, like I So, yeah, there's
he makes more sense now, But I still think the
value you can get for that pick if he's on
the board outweighs the value he brings. Yeah, that's fair,

(01:25:32):
but I wouldn't. I wouldn't take campbeller Banks outright it
for over him. If you can't move the pick, then
yeah you take Hunter. Yeah. Sure. Todd is in North Carolina.
What's up, Todd?

Speaker 4 (01:25:43):
Hey, guys. Uh, I'm just kind of I've been thinking
about it. I'm a little bit disappointed in the Crafts
because they put a first time head coach with a
first time offensive coach OC and a first time DC
and I don't know of any team anywhere that's had
success with that kind of ill to climb, and it

(01:26:05):
just it just felt awkward that they let that happen, Like,
if you're going to be, what they say, the stewards
for the team, why would you let the team stray
that far away from having some solid coach at least
somewhere in there to give some guidance. And my other
problem is, is there any chance that anybody would keep

(01:26:26):
a VP they came in, because I really think that
he did a good with both of those young quarterbacks.
It would be nice to just see maybe shim get
a chance to grow with somebody who's got some talent.
And that's it. That's all I got got.

Speaker 3 (01:26:38):
Thanks, good call, Todd. So I think that to the
first point, I'm one hundred percent with you. This was
and he said it to himself, right, Robert Gravie, And
I give him a credit for this.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
Why I'm not necessarily railing on him for it is
because he failed fast, right, He realized that it was
a mistake, right, and he corrected it and immediately would.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Have been a much bigger mistake to double down and
try a second.

Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
You're right, So it's it's pretty hard for us to
then come on here and say what a mistake, what
a mistake, and really rare rail on Ownership when Ownership
came out and said we made a mistake.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
Absolutely, yeah, no, absolutely. And to the second point on
Van Pelt, Look, I think Van Pelt did a really
good job is here. I think he did an underrated job.
I think the circumstances, everything that was going on around him.
Maybe maybe in like five years will look back at
it and say, wow, he did. You know what he
did with Drake May was should have gotten more credit
in the time than he did. There is sort of

(01:27:28):
a through line with him and for Able with Rabel's
connections in Cleveland. But I think Rabel it to your point,
and some of you've been hammering, I think Rabel's gonna
have higher aspirations for the offense coordinator now if he
does bring back Alex van Pelt. Takes away your whole
argument about having to turn that thing over every year.
And I don't think he's not coming back as quarterbacks coach.
He's gonna get oc offers elsewhere off the job he

(01:27:51):
did here might be back in Cleveland. But what he
did with Drake May, what he did with Joe Milton,
I only needed one game really to see. I do
want to end with some that was that was well,
let me just say that was a completely different player
we saw on and I mean this is the most
complimentary way possible. Seriously, that was a completely different player
we saw on Sunday than we saw in the summer.
That was a completely different quarterback. And Joe Milton himself

(01:28:13):
deserves the most credit because he took the coaching and
he put in the work and we know he worked
hard behind the scenes and he took the right approach,
and he deserves credit. Van Pelt deserves a ton of
credit for that too, because you could argue there were
definitely people who would have called Joe Milton the least
developable quarterback in that draft, and Van Pelt it worked
wonders with him.

Speaker 3 (01:28:33):
So I agree with you that there's probably a necessity
to aim higher and probably honestly a what's the word
a mandate to name higher? I think from the top,
and that's just my belief my thoughts. But at the
same time, there is a tie. You know, he was

(01:28:56):
in Cleveland for this past season with Kevin Stefanski, who
my guess is kind of regrets letting go of Alex
Van Pelt with the seasons, so they had in Cleveland
and We mentioned Lafloor and we mentioned Arthur Smith. Those
are two West Coast coaches run very similar systems to
what they run in Cleveland. There's definitely a tie that

(01:29:17):
says it could work.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
And there's the former player thing, Like you look at
Ben Johnson's staff, it's you look at Dan Campbell's staff.
Ben Johnson's like the only non former player on that staff.
So yeah, there's an inherent tie too between former players
when you get to the coaching level.

Speaker 3 (01:29:32):
Absolutely, and I I'm not one hundred percent here for it,
because I do think you can aim higher, and I
do think you can get a better offensive coordinator, not
a quarterbacks coach, but a better offense.

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
Let me put it this way, I'd be surprised if
Rabel or Ben Johnson, for that matter, like you got
at least interview Van Pelt and kind of pick his
brain on what he did he should at least, And
I know it sounds kind of pathetic interview for your
own job. Like if there's guys who're gonna talk about
from this staff that I'd like to see the current
coach keep, It's not a long list, but Alex man

(01:30:03):
Pell and I don't think that one's realistic, the other
three and more realistic. I wouldn't hate if they kept
Scott Peters. And there's another through line there with Rabel. Yeah,
I think as bad as the offensive line was for
the talent Peters was given, it really could have been
a lot worse.

Speaker 3 (01:30:18):
I just worry with Scott Peters. He was another first
time coach at running the room. I wonder if you
can get somebody in there that's more experience, and maybe
you bring.

Speaker 2 (01:30:28):
In a new assistant. But and I'd like to keep
Mike Pellegrino. I just think he might go to Chapel Hill.
But yeah, I just think he's a fantastic coach. I'd
like to hold on him. And the other one's Jeremy Springer. Yeah,
and I know he's a coordinator and that's a little
trickier with a new head coach. But I thought Springer
did great. If you're trying to reset the culture and
reset the program, the answer Springer gave about the fans

(01:30:51):
booing last Friday was fantastic. Was the best answer anybody
in the organization gave on that question. He's another guy
at the very least I would like to see get
to and it sucks you have to interview for your
own job, right right, But he's another guy that I
would like to see at least get that opportunity. Yeah, absolutely,
all right, the rest of them not so much. Those
are those four guys are the four guys that look

(01:31:11):
at and I'm like, and I guess if you want
to throw T. C. McCartney in under Van Pelt's umbrella,
but like you can keep those guys in the building,
it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:31:19):
So I definitely agree that Alex van Pelt deserves a
sit down with Mike Rabel and just to hear him out.
And maybe you know, you do poach somebody like a
Tommy Reese or someone like that, or someone from the
college ranks to then go ahead and you know, innovate, update,

(01:31:40):
help with play design like that sort of thing to
make this thing more you know, a whole in terms
of just not being just a quarterback coach but being
an OC. And I also you mentioned Wes Welker. You know,
is there a chance and I don't think he will
because he won a playoff game to playoff games, but
like if Ryan Day doesn't make it for whatever reason

(01:32:01):
in Ohio State, does Brian Hartline become available.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
Can you prye Brian Hartline away when Ryan Day makes
it or not? Passing game coordinator me I talked about
having that pipeline if you sell Brian Hartline on, hey,
come here coach receivers, and so Brian Hertline is Ohio
State's wide receivers coach, which obviously is a factory of
wide receivers. It's mind blowing. This guy has not gotten
a better jobob his good got to be getting paid

(01:32:27):
a ton by that too. But like the pitch to
heartline for me would be come here coach or wide receivers,
and you know we're gonna bring in Josh mccownon, We're
gonna bring in Tommy Reese, We're gonna bring in whoever
is the offensive coordinator. We are going to prepare you.
You are going to be the next guy in that pipeline.
And that gets back to the program building in the
pipeline of it all. That would be a fantastic opportunity. Again,

(01:32:50):
you have the the former player thing, Keenan McCardell, Sean
Jefferson who they've talked to in the past, McCardell all
is probably more a Brian Flores guy bringing him Sean Jefferson.
They're probably gonna blow up in New York, right, I
would think offensively. Yeah, ye, so probably like Sean Jefferson

(01:33:10):
should either whether it's it's Ben Johnson or or Mike Vrabel. Frankly,
Seawan was Sean Jeffers, It was Jefferson McCardell. I get
it mixed up because interviewing him at the same time. Yeah,
that was the Obrien here right, who was the one
who Calvin Johnson said was the best coach he's ever had.

Speaker 3 (01:33:27):
I would assume that that was Sean Jefferson. Okay, So
is McCardell was in Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
Okay, So if he's good enough for Calvin Johnson should
be good enough for you. I'd like that.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
That's a big time chicken or the egg. I think
Calvin Johnson was gonna be good no matter what.

Speaker 2 (01:33:41):
No, he no, no, no, it's not. I'm not saying
he made Calvin Johnsonvin Johns. If that guy saw something
in this coach, doesn't that mean there's probably something there
to see? Yes, right, that's more so much. I'm not
saying Sewn Jefferson's gonna turn all your receivers into Calvin Johnson.
I'm sorry, nice, it'd be fun.

Speaker 3 (01:33:59):
There's so many emails that I'm trying to get the
read through.

Speaker 2 (01:34:03):
Some of them we got calls to. I know, there's
so many emails.

Speaker 3 (01:34:06):
So, uh, there's some people reacting to our debate about
Ben Johnson versus Mike Crable as you can imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:34:13):
One and the people's head.

Speaker 3 (01:34:14):
So Jonathan and PbD, because he wants to just be Switzerland,
said we're both right, and uh, he said, I.

Speaker 2 (01:34:21):
Think that's kind of what I was going for.

Speaker 3 (01:34:22):
Yeah, we both kind of felt that way. So glad
that that guy.

Speaker 2 (01:34:25):
I'm glad he understood the opening message. We would both
take either guy. We would both be happy with either.

Speaker 3 (01:34:30):
So Jonathan kind of sums up my feelings on it.
I don't know if you exactly feel the same way,
but this is how Jonathan sums it up and sort
of how what I was saying earlier. He says, I
think you're both right. In just a discussion of floor
versus ceiling. Ben Johnson is the low floor high ceiling play.
He is the swing for the fences higher That could
be the next Shanahan McVay YadA, YadA, yadda. Rabel is

(01:34:52):
the safe play given that he has experienced, but there's
the risk the floor becomes the ceiling. Similar, and I
think this is a good comparison to Mike Tomlin with
the Pittsburgh Steelers, where I would be so happy where
you're never a blow five hundred team, but you're not
also never a serious content.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
But they've won, They've won with Tomlin. To Bethsger, yes, well,
Drake may should be relative to error at least Ben Roethlisberger,
I would say so, right, Tomlin.

Speaker 3 (01:35:21):
The difference between Tomlin and with this situation with Rabel
is Tomlin inherited a damn good tomin right.

Speaker 2 (01:35:27):
It's it's not exactly apples to apples.

Speaker 3 (01:35:28):
It would have been like and inherited the after twenty.

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
Eighteen, right, So to me, the floor ceiling thing, yes,
and I agree with that, but I add the addendum
on of I'll let my roster set the ceiling, right,
I just have the coach set the floor and establish
a program that works. And then I think with a
good roster, the ceiling you have with the great roster

(01:35:53):
is higher than the ceiling you have with a great coach. So,
and and that's why we're sitting here today. Yeah, but
I well, I think a bad coach can drag down
a good roster more than a bad roster can drag
down a good coach, if that makes sense. This is
why I didn't get to give this take. So I'll
just kind of wedge it in here now. The head

(01:36:13):
coach hiring is not the most important thing to me.
It's very important, It's very important. It's not the most
important thing to me. Who has final say, who's the
de facto GM Mike Vrabel, is it somebody else? We
touch on that a little bit. We touched in a
little bit. But just like you're not going to fix
this without him, you can give Rabel or Ben Jonson
and a roster looks like this, it's not gonna go
well for either one of them, even with your scheme

(01:36:34):
whiteboard stuff. Hey, the am I wrong? You want to
give Ben Johnson? This off is a long way from
Penna school.

Speaker 3 (01:36:40):
But it's the thing that I like about Ben Johnson
and why I'm so high on him as a as
a coach, is that he'll come in here and yes,
he built the Lions offense around that offensive line and rightfully.
So that's why they drafted Jamiir Gibbs, That's why they
drafted Penny Sewell, and they built it. Okay, so let
me if he doesn't have the line, and he has

(01:37:00):
great receivers or a great quarterback, I think he'll pivot.

Speaker 2 (01:37:04):
See, but these guys famously don't pivot. No. I Also,
if they hire Ben Johnson, you don't get to complain
if they draft a running back with the first round
of a year or two. I'm gonna hold you to that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:12):
In a couple of years, we have to build the
offensive line first. The reason why Jamiir Gibbs works in
Detroit is a combiny.

Speaker 2 (01:37:19):
I'm not saying if they draft Ashton Genty this year,
that's questionable even with Johnson, but drafted Ashton Gentry after
that playoff game at all. He was better in that
game than you. I told you all year that line
sack after contact seven times. Here's my point on the
head of personnel. Yeah, here's my point. Yeah, Drake May
definitely franchise quarterback. All of that, we're not watching Drake

(01:37:41):
May once a week for the next four months. Drake
May is gonna be in North Carolina working with quarterbacks, coach,
out of side, out of mind. Whoever, and even if
it's the coach, right, Ben Johnson is not making the
picks at the draft. Mike Rabel will see whoever gets
that final say that person becomes the face of the
franchise for the next four months. This whole thing. Drake

(01:38:04):
may the new head coach, all of it. It's gonna
sink or swim based on who's making the personnel decisions.

Speaker 3 (01:38:11):
I agree, I if I again, if it's Ben Johnson,
you have to hire a legitimate and j.

Speaker 2 (01:38:17):
And I like I wanted Ray Agnew last year he
was talking about, Say I love Ray Agnew. I'd like
Ray Agnew. Even if it's Mike Rabel, I would.

Speaker 3 (01:38:24):
Hire Ray Agnew as the personnel guy. I think you
actually need to hire two people at that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
Point, because you need a Chris Pielman too.

Speaker 3 (01:38:30):
I think you somebody above Ray Agnew and above Ben Johnson.

Speaker 2 (01:38:34):
Isn't that what Chris Pielman is in Detroit? Yes, yes,
I think so. I'm not exactly sure. He's like sort
of senior football there. He's the football overlord. Yes, I'm
the president of football. We talked about this last offseason.

Speaker 3 (01:38:45):
It never happened, And I want to resurface this take
because I think that this take is good to take
valid especially if it's Ben Johnson.

Speaker 2 (01:38:51):
It's very well. I'm not as worried about it. I
think he can be because we want to be able
to be this guy. Chris Bielman is a special assistant
to the owner in the CEO of the Detroit Lions.
There you go.

Speaker 3 (01:39:00):
So they need a football guy to be in a
president of football operations chair.

Speaker 2 (01:39:07):
They need and maybe it's not a great day to
bring this example up. They need a Cam Neely.

Speaker 3 (01:39:11):
Yes, and now it's the only example that's really relevant
to Boston because what they don't need is a Sam Kennedy.

Speaker 2 (01:39:17):
They need a football guy to be helping with the football, right.

Speaker 3 (01:39:21):
They don't need Sam Kennedy, no offense, Boston Red Sox.
They need Cam Neely and they need a guy that
is going to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:27):
Let's use Chris Fieldman. That's probably better. M yeah, probably,
But to the Bruins credit. And I know it's a
different league. It worked for a long time. It's different
league and all that kind of stuff. It worked for
a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:39:37):
They're always in the playoffs, like They're always a relevant team,
and that's what we want the Patriots to be to
an extent, we obviously want the ceiling to be higher
for the Patriots.

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
But whatever, All right, let's get back to the emails.

Speaker 3 (01:39:47):
Jeffrey is in Canada and he's pushing back on me
now because these.

Speaker 2 (01:39:51):
Are your people.

Speaker 3 (01:39:53):
Here are people, Evan, I have to push back if
I give you Gary kubi Act. In the last ten
Super Bowls, only two have been type pants guys that
have won the Super Bowl. The type pants guys that
have have lost five Super Bowls.

Speaker 2 (01:40:06):
So my response is large part two to Kyle Shanahan.
So in my.

Speaker 3 (01:40:09):
Response to this is okay, Well, in the last ten years,
two of them were Bill Belichick, three of them were
Andy Reid. So there goes half of the of the pool, right,
and then the other guys that have woned. Doug Peterson,
I don't know what is he. He's in the middle.

Speaker 2 (01:40:27):
Probably, Well, let me ask you this, because can't throw
them out, Tyler. And I'm not saying he's close Bill Belichick,
Andy Reid, Doug Peterson. Yeah, who is closer to that?
Mold Ben Johnson or Mike Rabel. Well, Doug Peterson and
Andy Reid both call offenses. Who is closer to the
mold as they exist right now?

Speaker 3 (01:40:44):
I guess probably my fraible there you go, But I
would My rebuttal to this is that if you told
me that the Patriots were in overtime of the Super
Bowl with Ben Johnson, I'm taking it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:55):
So I will actually give you a fair rebuttal of this. Yeah,
you hope. And this goes to the personnel thing. How
often do I get on Kyle Shanahan because he just
keeps picking bad quarterbacks and.

Speaker 3 (01:41:06):
Putting him in position? Well, that's what he says. He said,
I think it's gone got way more to do with
you who your quarterback is. And uh then slim versus
relaxed fit, which is funny.

Speaker 2 (01:41:15):
I'll give him that though. So did you purposely wear
like tight Kaki pants? I always wear these pants, of course, easy. Yeah,
Drake May is obviously a far cry from Jimmy Garoppolo
and Brock Party. Yep. So you hope that. And I've
always said if Shanahan had a real quarterback, he probably
have three or four. But whose fault is it that
he doesn't have to know about doing that? You know
it's his fault. It's his fault. He said no to

(01:41:38):
Tom Brady, he said his fault. It's his fault.

Speaker 3 (01:41:42):
But with that being said, you don't have to worry
if Sean McVay is one of the tight pants guys
super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (01:41:48):
I think Sean McVay is the exception of the rule
super Bowl.

Speaker 3 (01:41:50):
Kyle Shanahan has been to two of them. Like, if
you told me that that's where the Patriots are going
to be, I'm taking.

Speaker 2 (01:41:56):
It'd be great. And I'm not saying Ben Johnson would
be a bad hire. I'll be. I'll be want to
cover super Bowl? You don't want to cover. You want
to have fun watching film on Monday. You said this year,
why can it be both? Because well, one should take
priority over the other. Why can't I have both? You
can't have both, but one should take priority. All I
want to get there one way and you want to
get there another way. No, I want to get there anyway.

(01:42:17):
I just want to get there. I want to get there.
We're in there once and I think that's going to
be the peak of our careers. Okay, so today's up
there on the peak. This is a fun show.

Speaker 3 (01:42:27):
So there's a there's also a Okay, here's another one
on your side of the stream, Evan, You're worried about
Rabel ruining Drake May while simultaneously saying he made Ryan
Tannehill into an MVP candidate.

Speaker 2 (01:42:39):
Correct, So which one is it? Right? I hear you.
That's a good question point.

Speaker 3 (01:42:44):
I think the difference is though for me with that
argument is that Ryan Tannehill was at a much different
stage of his career than Drake. So Drake May is
going into his second season, he's still of developmental project stage.
He's still got a long ways to go. I love
the talent, I love Drake May, but let's face it,
he's got a long way to go.

Speaker 2 (01:43:02):
He does, but he's not. So I'd say two things. One,
as much as you can ruin him scammatically, you can
also run him with a bad culture. You can absolutely
ruin him with a bad program. Even if he's talented.
We've seen that two. Drake May's in his developmental stage.
He's not going to be there forever. You don't need
to worry about Mike Rabel consistently finding an offensive coordinator
every other year for the next ten or fifteen years.

(01:43:24):
You really just got to get one or two after that. Again,
I go back to that concept of the program. If
you can find two guys, the program becomes self powering,
it becomes self generating. And Drake Mays also just developed
at this point, and you can if you miss one,
you can survive. As again, you know I'm serious if
I am using the bills as a complimentary example as

(01:43:46):
they did with Josh Allen.

Speaker 3 (01:43:47):
Fair enough, all right, So a couple more emails and
then we'll get back to the phones before we wrap up,
I promise. So Destiny says that she he or she,
I'm sorry, I don't know. They love the show and
mainly for the ball knowledge and the draft takes. Yep,
that's that is definitely what we do, Destiny, and that's
why they like the off season shows the best.

Speaker 2 (01:44:08):
I like the officer. It isn't I've always said this
is an off season show.

Speaker 3 (01:44:11):
Yeah, we we this is our wheelhouse. So this is
another question about offensive coordinator. And you know what who
Mike Rabel's offensive coordinator would be. And we've we've talked
about the names, but I just want to say, like
on the record, I would be absolutely shocked if it's
not Josh McDaniels. And this is just my opinion, just
to just my opinion, my hunch. I would be absolutely

(01:44:34):
shocked if it wasn't Josh McDaniels. And the main reason
why I'd be absolutely shocked is that it's very, very
crystal clear to me that Robert Kraft wants to be comfortable.
He wants to hire guys he knows, he wants to
be around people he knows. Mike Frable is the guy
that he knows. My guess is that he's going to
real hard for Josh McDaniels to be the offensive coordinator.

(01:44:55):
So if it's not gonna be McDaniels, who at one
point in time they thought might be the successor to
Bill Belichick, So now you have Mike Rabel, who rocks
and they love. You have Josh McDaniels, who they love,
that's got the crafts feel nice, right, They feel like
they've got two guys that can really get behind. If
it's not Josh McDaniels, it's gonna have to be a
really compelling pitch to Mike by Mike Vrabel as to

(01:45:17):
why Tommy Reese is a better choice, Pep Hamilton's a
better choice or whoever else.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
It ends up being Yeah, no, he's gonna have to
ask why you do the interview. That's why you do
the process. This is what they didn't do last year.

Speaker 3 (01:45:28):
So here's a question from Brian. Are along the same
lines of offensive coordinator? And I think this is a
really important point as we turn the page, and I
say this tongue in cheek. But tomorrow, after Abel interviews
in Friday morning, when chefter breaks that he's the next
head coach of the Patriots, we are gonna start talking
about coordinators, right, that's gonna be the conversation. He brings
up Mike Laflor So that's Matt's brother, who is right

(01:45:51):
now is the offensive coordinator for the Los Angeles Rams.

Speaker 2 (01:45:54):
Don't hate that.

Speaker 3 (01:45:55):
So the problem is there's a problem. The problem is
that in the NFL, in order to make a lateral
move when you're under contract, you need to get permission
from the team that you're currently employed by to make
that move. So it's not looked at as a promotion
in the eyes of the league, even if you aren't
calling plays.

Speaker 2 (01:46:13):
So what if they were to offer him like pass
game coordinator. As far as I'm I know, well, he's
already the offensive coordinators. That would be a devotion. Oh,
you're right, you're right, right, even if they offered him
an associate head coach title. Yeah, it's still a lateral
move in the eye as the NFL. You're either an
assistant coach slash coordinator or your head That's probably good.

(01:46:35):
It's a good way to stop people from gaming the
system so that it doesn't help the Patriots here, But
it's right.

Speaker 3 (01:46:39):
The issue that I have with the rule, and I
brought this up yesterday on PU The issue that I
have with the rule is that there is a major
difference in your developmental track as a coach between being
a play caller and not being a play caller. So
Michael Floor does not call play Sean McVay calls the
plays and with the ramps.

Speaker 2 (01:46:56):
In my opinion, Mike Lafloor should be able to take
a play caller role that should be considered in the
eyes of the league, that should be considered a promotion.
Is there any reporting as to whether or not McVeigh
would let him go for that opportunity. There isn't because
at a certain point, like he's got to go to
McVeigh and be like, hey, this is a better opportunity
for me. You gotta let me because nobody's gonna hire

(01:47:19):
him as a head coach without that play calling experience
or not for a while. So if he wants to
be a head coach, he needs to get out of there.
Like does he go to McVeigh and put pressure on McVeigh, like, hey,
you need to let me get this opportunity. It's possible,
but from what I understand about the process, it's tricky
because he's under contract, which means he needs to buy
out his contract. That it just there's a lot of

(01:47:41):
layers that present, in a lot of roadblocks that present
to prevent lateral movement in the NFL. If he wasn't
under contract, if his contract has expired and he's a
true coaching free agent, for example, like Patrick Graham with
the Vegas Raiders, then that's different. Like Patrick Graham can
go and be a defensive coordinator someplace else. That's not
the case if you're currently employed, like my guy is

(01:48:03):
Stenovich with the Green Bay Packers. He is an offensive coordinator.
He's already got the title. He's not the play caller.
There's nothing he can do. I think one of these
guys would put the pressure on to try to get
to better opportunity. Yeah, there's a million of them. Frank
Smith in Miami is another one that is a hot
head coaching name we go. You're making my argument for
me about vraybe.

Speaker 3 (01:48:20):
Frank Smith, though already is the offensive coordinator by title
with the Miami Dolphins, so he cannot make a lateral
move even though Mike McDaniel runs the offense and calls.

Speaker 2 (01:48:29):
The plays too bad, Dolphins and fire Mike McDaniel. There
you go. Uh. Mike Kafka with the New York Giants, Yeah,
they were really tied to him at one point a
couple of years ago. Weren't they last year with the
search potentially, But Mike Kafka got a promotion on Dables
staff to give him the title. And part of that
is just to make sure that the only jump he's
going to make is the head coach. So that's that's

(01:48:51):
where it gets tricky with a lot of those types
of guys. All right, a couple of emails here about
the just the process, and I understand you know this
is from Brandon. Uh, he is concerned that they're not
doing a thorough search and he said, for all the
talk from Mark ak about how they would do with
thorough search and whatever it takes to get back to
being good, I agree with Albert Breer's comments from last

(01:49:14):
night that it's looking like a sham sham strong. Albert
Breer has been hard on them though for the Pep
Hamilton and Byron Leftwich interviews to check off the rule,
and I I understand where he's coming from. My pushback
with the the thorough search is one, it's a private business,

(01:49:34):
so at the end of the day, it's their business,
it's their football team. Whoever they think is the best
guy for the job is the best guy for the job. Secondly,
I'd be more frustrated with that aspect of it if
Mike Rabel wasn't qualified, like if it was dry Ao
two point zero, I'd be more frustrated with that part
of it. But they're the reason why the crafts, in

(01:49:57):
my opinion, are moving so quickly is because Mike Rabel
is a coaching free agent. He can get hired at
any time by anybody and toom Brady and so if
they don't move fast, then he's gonna get hired by
somebody else. So I here's my thing about like the
thoroughness of the search, right, Yeah, who else do you
want them to talk to? Not you? Just like in general,
like if you're worry they're not talking about people? Yeah,

(01:50:18):
who else you want them to talk to? I think
there's the only other guy really for me is Flores.
And they'd have to wait two weeks to do it,
and I get that. Yeah, what I I hope they
are like Rabel and Ben Johnson. This is a unique
psych with Rabel and Ben Johnson. I think are clearly
the two best candidates available right now. I put Flores
on their tier, but they can't talk to him right now.
Those are clearly the two best candidates. I want those

(01:50:42):
two guys vetted thoroughly. I want no stone unturned in
those interviews, and I want an open mind going into
those interviews between those two. That's what I hope we get.
Who else is like Aaron Glenn? All right, I'll give
you Aaron Glenn too. I don't think they want a
first time defensive head coach, But like I wouldn't mind
if they talk to Aaron Glenn. I don't need them

(01:51:03):
to talk to I don't need them to talk to
Doug Peterson. Who are some of the other names that
are out there. I don't need Liam Cohone. I don't
I think leeam no Brady, all right, you talk to
Joe Brady to figure out what's going on with Josh Allen.
But like, I'm good there, Liam Cohne to me, and
I like Liam Cohne, I do. And he's a local
guy and all that. He's still probably your away. I
think if you hire him, it's too early. Maybe he's

(01:51:25):
not quite as ross Jerd Mayo, but he's like I've
kind of dumped on Ben Johnson in the.

Speaker 3 (01:51:30):
WELO bounced from LA to Kentucky, back to LA down
to Tampa.

Speaker 2 (01:51:34):
Like he's you skipped like four or five trips between
LA and Kentucky.

Speaker 3 (01:51:37):
Yeah, he's got to kind of solidify some consistency.

Speaker 2 (01:51:41):
I like, as much as I pushed back on Ben Johnson,
the whole concept of the first year head coach, as
far as the rookie head coach goes, Ben Johnson's relatively
well prepared. I'm not picking on Ben Johnson specifically, it's
the concept of a rookie head coach. William Cohane to
me is like even for a rookie head coach would
be raw. Yeah, I would be early, But like, I
don't need them. I know some people talk about like

(01:52:01):
Dan Lanning. Dan Lane's going to tell you what worked
at Oregon. Dan Lane is going to tell you what
worked at the college level. It'd be fascinating. I don't
know how much that applies to the New England Patriots.

Speaker 3 (01:52:12):
So the only reason in my opinion that you interview
some of these other guys I said at the top
of the show, I don't need them to interview fifteen guys.

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):
Like the Jets are putting in a request for half
the league. They talked to Adam Gase, yet they talked
to Rex Ryan. That's why what I'm saying, Adam gas
I talked.

Speaker 3 (01:52:29):
To the entire NFL world, is interviewing with the Jets.
I don't need the Patriots to do that. The argument,
and you just made it for Joe Brady. The argument
is is that you want to hear different perspectives and
different philosophies, so that way there you can kind of
settle on what the direction is that you want to
go in. So if Joe Brady and Liam Cohene, they
come in a lot of these interviews, especially the in

(01:52:50):
person ones. They give them a little project. They'll say, Okay,
Joe Brady, like, what would you do with Drake may
right right now, Joe Brady has it already done, right
he would just put on the buffalo yeah, and be
like this is what we would do, but that that's
sort of what would go into it. And now once
you make your higher you can say to them, you know,
we really kind of like this philosophy of pushing the

(01:53:13):
offense in this sort of direction and get the head
coach's perspective and all that kind of stuff, so that
it's really about hearing out the different philosophy.

Speaker 2 (01:53:22):
Or the other thing you can do with it is
And we saw them do this at a lower level
in the past. Like you talk to guys who you're
probably not gonna hires head coach, we might hire his
offensive coordinator because that we have in the building. You
start to build that rapport. Now when you get to
the offensive coordinator interviews, you're already kind of a step ahead.
Like Pep Hamilton, think that that Pep Hamilton is on
that track. Potentially I wouldn't and I know you don't

(01:53:44):
love the job he did, and I get it. I
wouldn't roll out Byron left Wich in that regard either,
just because I don't know how this works with Brady
being an owner of the Raiders, but like he was
Brady's OC for multiple years, Brady and Rabel have this relationship. Yep.
Does Rabel go to Brady and say what do you
think of Byron left Witch? But can he do that?
Is that tampering because Brady's with the Raiders, Like, I

(01:54:06):
don't know how that thing works, but there is a
connection there.

Speaker 3 (01:54:09):
So yeah, and again, I just don't really lose a
lot of sleep over the fact that they're not interviewing
a dozen candidates for this position.

Speaker 2 (01:54:19):
And I just want them to as long as they
have an open mind with Ben Johnson.

Speaker 3 (01:54:22):
Yeah, the other thing, and then I will take these
calls and wrap it up. The other thing, I would
just say about the breadth of this search and all
that kind of stuff. I was skeptical to put them
in this category because of the timeline, like I thought,
and I still do. If Buffalo, if Philadelphia, if they're
one and done in the playoffs this year and one

(01:54:44):
of those two head coaches get fired as a result,
they're gonna be the top destination. But as of right now,
the six teams that have let their head coaches go
on Black Monday. As of right now, the New England
Patriots are the top destination on the board. So as
a result, they have their pick. You don't need contingency planning.
They don't need contingency plans. You're interviewing guys like Drew Petsing,

(01:55:07):
Liam Cohne. Those types of guys are getting interviews as
playing BCD.

Speaker 2 (01:55:12):
Right, it's the rookie guys being interviewed in case of
Louise Johnson, the other guys being interviewed in case lose
you lose out on Raybel Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with
you on that.

Speaker 3 (01:55:23):
It surprises me to an extent that the Patriots are
the number one destination.

Speaker 2 (01:55:27):
Kay.

Speaker 3 (01:55:28):
Maybe I'm just like trying to like tech myself in
that situation.

Speaker 2 (01:55:32):
I think some of it might be I mean, the
other destinations, some of it might be my default. The
other destinations are bad. Yeah, it's really the only other
one that has a case of Chicago. Chicago's not terrible,
it's more just a track record of ownership there. But yeah,
I mean the Jets are that's brutal the Saints might
have to hire you, Yeah, dumpster because nobody wants to

(01:55:52):
go there. Yeah, so, and then you can do your
whole thing about the Saints salary cap.

Speaker 3 (01:55:56):
Yeah in Vegas also kind of a dumpster fire. So uh,
the Patriots Vegas.

Speaker 2 (01:56:00):
Should be better option if they have a top two pick.

Speaker 3 (01:56:02):
The Patriots have a quarterback, they have cap space, and
they have a top draft pick. So you're coming in
and you it's you have the canvas, right, It's the
world is your oyster here in New England. And even
though here locally the Crafts have taken on a lot
of water in the last four or five years, I
think I still think across the league they are viewed
as good owners. And I also had stable owners because

(01:56:24):
the team's not going any Look, it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:26):
Would have to go so bad for them to one
and done two coaches in a row. Right, So you
may be think you're gonna get a little longer leash.

Speaker 3 (01:56:32):
All right, let's get back to the phones and then
we'll call it a day. Here Don is in Philadelphia.
What's up, don O?

Speaker 8 (01:56:38):
Hey, guys, I just wanted to talk roster construction really quick.
I'm not sure the average fan really realizes how much
cap space one hundred and thirty million dollars is.

Speaker 2 (01:56:50):
I think you're right.

Speaker 8 (01:56:50):
You can get you can get top tier players that
are starting. I mean the way you structure those contracts.
You know, I know the hot name being thrown out
is always T Higgins, and I know Alex loves the
idea of trading for a DK mattcat. My my thought
is is you know why, you know, spend all this

(01:57:13):
money if you can get a Byron Murphy, get a
DJ Reid, get a T. Higgins, and then you could
draft best player available. You know, I think Calvin Banks
is good, but if you can get app Bill Carter,
I think his feeling is much higher.

Speaker 5 (01:57:29):
You know what?

Speaker 7 (01:57:30):
And also what is your thought?

Speaker 8 (01:57:32):
Would you trade a second round pick for a DK Metcalf?

Speaker 2 (01:57:36):
But I'll leave it you guys, than no problem. Don
gonna take care of the dog. Yeah. So I agree
with most of what he said. The only little thing
there is it's great in theory to say we're gonna
spend money on a starting corner, starting wide receiver, starting tackle,
starting edge rusher. Right, yeah, Well, all those players have
to be available for you to spend money on. You
can't just create players out of thin air. I think

(01:57:57):
at most of the positions you can do it. If
not through outright free agency trading for pre agents, guys
that are entering their last year. I tackle to me,
the market does not look great. There's Cam Robinson and
maybe you throw a bag at Cam Robinson and maybe
I would be shocked if he gets out of Baltimore
as well. Right, so like maybe you throw a bag

(01:58:17):
at Ronnie Stanley. And that's the answer to his point
about like you can draft the best player available. Well,
if you can take care of every position but one,
then you can draft that. And I think between some
of like the tackling edge rusher guys, it is close.
So I I still think if you want that premier
tackle like Cam Robinson's a good tackle, if you want
your franchise left tackle, set it and forget it ten years,

(01:58:37):
you probably need to go to the draft. But no,
they they should be. They need to bring in multiple
starters through the veteran market. I you know, corner, we've talked.
You don't need a stud corner. It'd be great, but
you can get away with like DJ Reads a little
small for me, but like a Carlton Davis, this guy,
I've talked about a couple of decent pass rushers out
there that'll be available. I'm a second for DK Metcalf.

(01:59:00):
I would do that. I'm done thirty eight for DK Metcalf.
You're not going to draft a receiver veteran DK Metcalf
at thirty eight, and you probably need to be using
your top pick on the trenches one side of the
ball or the other. So it's probably the Highester taking receiver.
I'd try easily trade that pick for DK Metcalf. You
give him like thirty million a year. DJ Reid's gonna

(01:59:21):
cost you what like fifteen? Or Carlton Davis, Whoever's gonna
cost you fifteen? Pass rusher is probably another fifteen. The
money is not the problem. You're only half You're less
than half through your salary cap at that.

Speaker 3 (01:59:31):
The money is not the problem. The problem is is
that it's about the talent on the board. And yes,
you if theoretically could sign a Cam Robbinson, could sign
a Carlton Davis.

Speaker 2 (01:59:42):
But the question is are they good enough? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:59:44):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:59:45):
Are they truly good enough player? If you if you
put all the moves together correctly, I think you know
you're not building super bowl roster this offseason. I don't
think you're gonna get the players good enough to make
you like a super Bowl team this offseason, right, Can
they put you in the right direction? Can you be
one of these teams? You were in the mix for
the playoffs the last week? Yeah, I think the talent's
there for that.

Speaker 3 (02:00:03):
So you what you worry about though, is like in
twenty one, they got one really true impact player in
Matthew g Yeah, Hunter Henry is a really solid title.

Speaker 2 (02:00:12):
I'll give him that one. Kendrick Bourne would have been
good if they didn't screw with him. Sure, but like
Kendrick Bourne, Nelson Agalore, John new Smith, do not put
Kendrick burn group is Agalre and Smith. Those are different.

Speaker 3 (02:00:21):
Okay, Also, as we now know, like those guys are
good players, but they're not great players.

Speaker 2 (02:00:26):
Well as we now know, John new Smith's not a
bad player, they just didn't use them. But my point
being is that you're not getting the great players in
free agent. No, you're not. That has to come through
the draft. You're supporting it through free agent or yeah,
veteran market. You got to be able to draft well
Robertkraft talked about this. He was exactly right. You can't
have sustained success in the NFL, and look what happened
they did that In the next few years. They didn't

(02:00:48):
really add anybody in free agency, they had bad drafts,
So one offseason is not going to fix it. You
can absolutely get yourself going in the right direction, though,
and I think for that first step, the talent is available.
Between the draft and the veteran market, they can make
the moves they need to make to get on that
first step. They then got to followed up next offseason
the off season after that, which is what they didn't

(02:01:09):
do last time. But I do think the talent's there
to do more or less what they need to do
to have like what is reasonably a successful offseason this offseason.

Speaker 3 (02:01:17):
So they need to in my opinion, we always say
that there's no such thing as best player available. Yeah,
but there's best player available at premium position, best player
available for the football team. So I don't necessarily care
about targetting a tackle, targeting a receiver. I'd be open
to Abdull Carter as much as I'm open to Calvin Banks.
If I'm the Patriots, I'm approaching it the same way.

(02:01:39):
I'm just not drafting guards and running backs and kickers
and punters, and like you gotta it's gotta be a
premium position. It's got to be it's got to be
a receiver, okay, but a tackle, a pass rusher, or
a corner. The overall I'm not drafting defensive tackles either.

Speaker 2 (02:01:54):
I'm with you, Almadam, Mason Graham. The overall philosophy stands. Yeah,
but you can only pick the players that are on
the board. It's Tet McMillan good enough to be worthy.
That's that's a bigger conversation that we don't have time for. Well, no,
we we have a lot of time over the coming weeks.
But my point is, like you have to if you
if you know Teed McMillan is not worth that pick,
and you know you need to add a receiver, you

(02:02:16):
have to be very aggressive in the vet whether it's Higgins,
whether it's Metcalfe, with it somebody else, not Tyreek Hill, though,
you have to be very aggressive to the veteran market.
You want them to add tyreek Kill. I'm just laughing.
I'm out on time, Okay.

Speaker 3 (02:02:26):
We gotta wrap uh the playbook is coming up at
two thirties. If you didn't get your calls and your
emails in, you can hang on and John Rocca will
be along here shortly to take those.

Speaker 2 (02:02:37):
But we're already over, so we got to go. I
hope we lived up to the billing I said before
the show on Twitter is like this is gonna be
in all time er. I hope we lived up there
and we did yell at each other, and that show
honestly felt like it was fifteen minutes. All right, Well,
we'll be back next week.

Speaker 3 (02:02:48):
This is our new time slot for the off season,
so noon to two on Wednesdays for the duration of
the off season.

Speaker 2 (02:02:55):
For like two weeks, and then we'll have to move
it further to senior ball and then the comment but
this will be there.

Speaker 3 (02:03:00):
This is this is supposed to be the permanent time slot.
So we'll see you guys next week at this time.

Speaker 2 (02:03:04):
And I think we might have a Patriots head coach
by that point, so we'll talk about it then.

Speaker 6 (02:03:08):
But thank you for downloading this podcast, Subscribe on Apple,
google Play, and everywhere else you listen. Like the show,
Please rate and review us. Listener comments and ratings help
keep us high in the podcast rankings so new listeners
can find us. Be sure to check Patriots dot com
for more news and more podcasts.

Speaker 2 (02:03:33):
Patriots Postgame Show.

Speaker 1 (02:03:36):
Join Matt Smith along with Patriots dot COM's Paul Parrillo
and Mike dessou as they offer instant analysis after every
Patriots game. We bring you the good, the bad, and
the injury from each game.

Speaker 2 (02:03:47):
Plus you'll hear.

Speaker 1 (02:03:48):
Press conferences, exclusive player interviews, and more on the Patriots
Postgame Show. Search for Patriots Postgame anywhere you get your
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