Patriots Catch-22 4/30: Draft Recap, Pats Draft Class Breakdown, Dane Brugler Interview

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan
Lazar and Alex Barth and Lazarre.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hell everybody nailed it, joined us always by our Bara.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Here is Evan Lazar and Alex bars I.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
I know Ben Jonson's a nerd and they don't like
running guys the way they operated in Detroit. I think
he may be one of these nerds that is a
little softer on the running back thing than everybody else.
But you will disown that guy so fast from the
nerd community.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, if you take a running this is what you
you you if you want until they you dumb nerd
stuff and then you just own them and you.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Say, because it's not like a nerd, but all do,
but this isn't.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
That's not nerd. Of they didn't do it, neither team
they Yeah, you're right, Jaguars not exactly full nerd. Trading
up and giving up capital is not usual. No, No,
that's a RAMS thing. A lot of value in the
picks is actually more of a nerd thing. But that's okay.

(01:15):
Travis Hunter not a running back last time I checked.
Colston Lovelin not a running back last time they're.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Coting to play Travis Hunter both ways full time is
a pretty big nerd thing because you're not accounting the
human element of stamina. You're just looking at what the
data tells you he can do.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Because Travis Hunter has had no success at a high
level of football, doing.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Is the NFL is a little different than the Big twelve.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Anyways, Travis Hunter, Jaguars Catch, excited to do it. This
is not Jaguars Catch. So hello everybody. On that note, Hi, Hello,
Evan Lazar, Alex Barth with you for the next couple
hours here a very special exciting show today, post draft show,
big show for us, and I just want to lay

(01:57):
out the agenda here today. Alex and I are going
to do our normal show for the first like hour
forty hour, forty five minutes here today, and then at
the end of the show you're going to want to
stay all the way to the end because yesterday we
were able to sit down with Dan Brugler from The
Athletic the Beast himself and discuss the Patriots draft class

(02:18):
and why Dane ranked the Patriots as the best draft
in the entire NFL. So we're jam packed today, so
that means calls and emails I'm not sure we're going
to get to those today because we want to go
pick by pick through all eleven picks, and then obviously
you guys all want to hear what Dane has to
say at the end of the show as well, So
we got a lot to get to. On that note,

(02:39):
I do want to start with just our big picture
thoughts on the draft, and I would just start by saying,
we're all very excited about what the Patriots have done
this offseason. We're all very optimistic about this ero with
Mike Rabel and Elliott Wolf and Ryan Cowden and Stretch
and the whole gang and draft they put together was fantastic.

(03:02):
And I'm not that's not Sunshine dot com Like, I
really thought it was a great draft. Yeah, I thought
it was a great draft that they had. That said,
I do want to keep expectations a little bit in check.
I hear a lot of playoffs conversations right now about
this team. Yeah, we're let's see what the team looks
like in training camp in the preseason before we start

(03:24):
talking about playoffs. All right, It's we got a ways
to go until that's, you know, back to back four
win seasons to playoffs. But they're headed in the right direction.
The most encouraging thing I thought from a big picture
standpoint with this draft, Alex was the feel for the board,
and the feel for the board married with UH getting

(03:45):
their needs checked, but also doing it with the board
in mind right and not reaching for need or missing
runs on positions of need or anything like that that
maybe we saw a little bit of in the twenty
four draft. The twenty five draft, it seemed a lot more.
To use Elliott what Wells word organized, Like, they felt

(04:08):
more organized. The draft made more sense. It felt more
routine for them. So when he came out and said
this was more organized this process, it showed you could
feel it. It was tangible. There was evidence of it
being more organized. So that's all very exciting. Like I said,
we'll get to the individual picks as we go here today,

(04:29):
But what were your big picture thoughts on the draft?

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, kind of the same thing. I thought. The biggest
thing that stood out to me was the big debate
beyond the players themselves, Like the big philosophical debate for
me for the Patriots in this draft was drafting for
need versus best player available, and then how much should
you value premium position. How much ald premium position factor
into that? And I thought they walked the line between

(04:54):
those two things incredibly well. You know, you look at
their first pick and Will Campbell. That was not to
say he wasn't arguably the best player available, you know,
for what they had, but you know, ash Gent, he
would have been the pure best player available pick. Right,
We've talked about that. But they go out, they address
their biggest need at a premium position right off the top,
and then what do they do. They come back at

(05:14):
pick thirty eight, and that was a pure best player
available pick if Luther Burden wasn't on their board. And
you could debate whether or not that's right, but I
think we all kind of assumed they weren't going to
draft Luthor Burden. So if Luther Burn's not on their board,
there's a real argument they're right there at Trevion Henderson's
just best player available, so you know, and they kind
of went back and forth on that. And I thought
the other thing is they did a really good job

(05:34):
of supporting Drake may I thought this draft helped out
Drake May a ton and I said this a lot
into the lead up, and I'll say it again, what's
best for the football team is what's best for Drake
May and vice versa. At this point, Drake May is
their best asset. They need to maximize him. They last
time they draft a quarterback. Now there were other issues there,
but last time the draft a quarterback, they did not
do that. This felt like them doing that, especially after

(05:55):
free agencies and people were nervous, and I get why,
Like they signed all these defensive players and didn't at
Morgan Moses. I think the ones true starter they added
in free agency on offense, which is fun, step on
to roll, like the initial Waight Yeah, Stefan Diggs just
a good point. But like I think a lot of
these picks. You know, you go out, you get a
really good yards after catch receiver, you get a three

(06:15):
down running back who's a home run threat. You get
obviously starting left tackle, right, starting later, starting center. So
I think that they did a lot to invest in
Drake May. Now May has to prove that those investments
are worthwhile, right, which we all think he can do.
But they invested in Drake May, which I love.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
All Right, let's get to it. Let's get to the
nitty gritty. Yeah, you it's not waste any time here
today deliberating big picture thoughts. But I think the we've
talked so much about Will Campbell over the last five months. Yeah,
I don't have a ton to add on Will Campbell,
So I don't want to spend a ton of time
on Will Campbell. I do feel like though, you know,
I'm writing our future series that we'll have on every pick,

(06:54):
all eleven picks. We're gonna start rolling those out soon
on the website. And I have talked to his offensive
line coach at LSU, Duke Mannyweather, some other people that
have worked with Will Campbell have been around Will Campbell.
I got to spend ten minutes with him even on
Patriots Unfiltered last week. So I've now that I've gotten

(07:18):
to know him a little bit just from talking to
people in his life. I understand the intangible even more.
And we talked a ton about the intangible stuff. We
talked a ton about the tangible the football on this show,
and we have deliberated and debated all the different pros

(07:41):
and cons and poked every single hole in Will Campbell's
game that we possibly could. But what I think I
keep coming back to his offensive line coach Brad Davis
at LSU told me that he re established the culture
of the LSU offensive line room, you know, in terms
of work ethic and competitiveness and putting in those extra

(08:02):
you know a couple minutes you know, after practice and
in the weight room and in the film room and
in the cold tub and in the you know, with
the doctors and the nutritionists and like all these different things.
And when you start to think about it, and his
offensive line coach even pointed out to me that he
actually spent a lot of his own money, his NIO money,

(08:23):
on working with specialists, you know, physical therapists, trainers, you know,
things like that. This guy, as he as Dave has
put it to me, has been a pro for like
two or three years already at LSU because he's been
conducting himself that way and completely re established or built
the culture back up from twenty nineteen when they won

(08:45):
the Joe Moore Award, you know, Joe Burrow and Jefferson
and had a great offensive line in twenty nineteen, they
took a little bit of a step back for a
couple of years. Will Campbell arrives on campus and then
they are, you know, one of the better offensive lines
in the country from that point on. So as much
as I feel like fans here, let's talk about all

(09:05):
this leadership and and tangible stuff, And they say, well,
if that's the first thing you're saying about the player,
then he might maybe is he not really that good
of a football player?

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Three months talking about how good of a football player.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
This is on top of the fact that he is
a really good football player, And that's what gets you
as an offensive lineman or as last year, I heard
a lot of the same things when I did the
feature on Drake May It's that's how you get to
be the number four overall pick. You don't go number
four overall most of the time simply just because you're

(09:36):
an overwhelming talent. A lot of the time you go
for overall because of the entire package that you bring to.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
The table a program player. Yeah, and I think that's
what they're getting in Will Campbell. And you're, like you said,
we've covered him extensively for last four months. I don't
know how much more there is to really add at
this point, but I'm with you in the sense that
you know he's going to be good for the program.
I don't expect there to be much of a learning

(10:02):
curve with him in terms of, you know, being a rookie,
being a kid and figuring things out. I think he
kind of has it all, you know, outwardly, it seems
like he has a lot figured out at this point,
which is very impressed at twenty one years old. That's
the other thing I'll remind people because I think you
hear so much about his leadership and his experience and
this and that, but you know, people talk about I

(10:24):
think people don't realize he just turned twenty one in January.
So this is a young guy. And from a football standpoint, like, wow,
you could have yeah, breaking thing, no idea, what do
we do it? From a football standpoint, he has a
lot of room to get better physically because he's only
twenty one.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, that's a good point and something that I've gravitated towards.
And this is not just because they've done it a
lot recently, but you know, I've gravitated towards the young breakout,
the true junior declare is like those types of guys.
And now the Patriots have had three in a row.
Christian Gonzales, Drake may, Will Campbell, and those are the

(11:00):
guys that have that upper echelon, blue chip level talent
and they break out early, and then they're able to
come out early and then go to the NFL at
a young age, and that that's where Will Campbell's at.
You have something else to say, Oh, all right, let's
move on. I don't want to talk too much.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
About you spend because we've got a lot of players
to get to him. We've talked about it.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
We've spent five months talking about Will Campbell. All right,
next pick here, Travon Henderson from Ohio State, running back,
thirty eighth overall. A couple of things that stand out
to me about Trevon Henderson when I watched him pre draft.
First of all, you mentioned it off the top home
run hitter. Right, This is a guy that can take

(11:40):
a pass behind the line of scrimmage from sixty five
yards out and house it and put it in the
end zone. Did it against Oregon, did it against Texas
and the college football Playoff. So we're not talking about
him doing it against you know, Long Beach Polytech, right,
We're talking about him doing it against a big time
competition with other fell players on the field. The other

(12:03):
things that stood out to me. I think he's a
really loose or fluid mover in space. I wouldn't say
that he's a jump card jump cut artist.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Like.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
I don't think he's overly elusive necessarily, but what he
is is very you know, dynamic in his movements, and
he can create separation as a receiver. He can get
out in space and he can either eliminate pursuit angles
or run through tackles or things of that nature. I
think that he's one of those players that's in a

(12:34):
similar mold, you know, if you want to, we always
talk about like ceiling, realistic comps, floor comps. Right for
these types of players. The ceiling of this archetype is
Jamier Gibbs. I think he's the right now, at least
in the NFL. He's the top guy in this mold
in what Trayvon Henderson is hopefully going to bring to

(12:55):
the Patriots, the realistic comp that I made for him.
And again this is all, this is not all. The
Patriots drafted this guy, so now I'm gonna gast him up.
Was Breese Hall with the Jets, right, A guy that
can do both, that can run the football, catch the ball,
out of the backfield, big play threat whenever he touches
the football. So I look at those two backfields David

(13:15):
Montgomery and Jamier Gibbs and Braylan Allen and Breese Hall
in New York, and I say, Ramondroe, Stevenson Traveon Henderson.
So I know a lot of people have talked about
his pass protection. He is a very good pass protector,
highlight the underselling, high level bits, pick up guy, no
doubt about it. I love that element of his game.

(13:37):
I think that's a really big part of getting him
on the field on third down early on in his career.
So I'm not underrating it or trying to make little
of it, but almost like with receivers, you're not drafting
him to block, Okay, you're drafting him to house the
ball from seventy five yards out like that. That's what
you're hoping to get with the player. And when you

(13:57):
take him thirty eight overall, that's what you're hoping to
get out of t On Henderson. So I'm very excited
that one they looked at it and said, we need
big plays on offense, we need explosiveness on offense, and
this certainly did it. As did Kyle Williams. But I'm
also really excited about the pairing with Remandre. I think

(14:17):
the two of those guys together are thunder and lightning.
Like they have a power downhill back with Remandre and
now they have a real explosive back with Traveon.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Henders, and they can kind of get back to that
early down passing down back thing too. Certainly, both guys
are relatively rounded. I think Henderson's incredibly well rounded. But
that's the interesting thing. Like people are gonna compare him
to James White. That was a lot of it after
the draft, and I think he can play that James
White role, but he can do it differently because he's
a better traditional run player than the players the Patriots

(14:51):
have usually had in that role. James White wasn't somebody
you were getting under center and handing it off to
in the a gap, right, There wasn't a ton of that.
And look, it was because they won the Super Bowl.
But like if you remember in twenty eighteen, one of
the big storylines that year was based on the running
back usage the offense becoming too predictable. I think they
were running the ball like sixty something percent of the

(15:12):
time when Sony Michelle was on the field, which again
they won the Super Bowl ultimately whatever, but they don't
exactly have the offensive line now that they had then.
So what Tradeon Henderson does is he removes some of
that predictability and Ramonder Stevenson to an extent as well,
because he's gonna handle himself in the pass game. He's
not quite the receiver Henderson is, but he's not somebody
all right, well, Henderson's in the game, you know, because

(15:34):
you're seeing in the huddle, you're not seeing it as
a defense. When they break to the formation. You know,
James White goes in the huddle, all right, let's go light,
you're gonna pass. Let's get ready to match up. Henderson
could be in the huddle and you're thinking, all right,
they're going pass, let's go nickel, let's go dime, whatever.
And now they come out under center and they motioned
the tight end in and suddenly they're ready to run
power or something like that. So you weren't necessarily doing

(15:54):
that with guys like James White, or guys like Danny
Woodhead or guys like Shane Vereen. So as long as
they've kind of done this dichotomy of early down passing down.
The early down back is usually the lead back, and
he's the guy that's gonna be on the field more.
So this might look a little different where I think
it'll still be early down passing down, but the passing

(16:16):
down back is going to be the lead back. He's
the guy who's gonna play more. I don't think Henderson's
a feature back. That was the big concern at High
or one of the big concerns Ohio State. He had
some durability issues early in his career. That's what part
of the reason they went out and got Quinn Shawn
Judkins in the transfer portal. But I don't think Henderson
needs to be a feature back. He's not somebody that
needs to carry the ball three hundred times in a
season to justify that pick. So, but lead back means

(16:39):
he's gonna get the majority. He's gonna be the starting
running back, if you want to call it that, even
though you know he is not necessarily gonna start every game.
But I think he can be the lead back wherez
Stevenson will still play a significant role, but it might
not be as big. He might be the second running
back on the roster.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
So It's interesting because I agree with you, and I've
heard a lot about him as receiving ups and yeah,
that's certainly a big part of it. He averaged over
eleven yards per catch at at Ohio State for his career.
Like I said, awesome, pass protector, awesome and blitz pick up.
But I don't think it's correct or fair, I guess

(17:14):
is the better word. I don't think it's fair to
call Henderson a receiving back. I think Henderson is a
true change of paceback, like he's a true speedback, change
of pace back. And one of the things that I've
been thinking about with this pick is that we have
seen especially last year, and maybe it changes with Josh

(17:35):
McDaniels and as they get this thing up and running
and they have better players around him. But there's no
doubt about it in my mind that Drake may is
more comfortable in the shotgun than he is under center.
And that's just the nature of the beast. With these
young quarterbacks these days, they're all in these spread offenses,
these air raids, these RPOs, things like that, Like they're
all doing the same stuff in college football for the

(17:56):
most part. So that's the beast, right now you have
to be able to cater your offense to that type
of team. And if the Patriots are going to be
a gun run team, if they're going to be heavy
in that respect in terms of shotgun versus under center split,
then I love Ramandre Stevenson as a player. I think
last year was a blip. I think he's a better

(18:18):
player than what he showed on tape in twenty twenty four.
But he's not necessarily a gun run back. Gun run
backs are water bugs. Gun run backs have great speed
instance stop start acceleration because they don't get a run
up to the line of scrimmage. Like if you're under
center and you're in a power eye or whatever and

(18:41):
the back is all the way, you know, eight yards
in the backfield, then they have that run up to
the line of scrimmage to come up and hit the
line of scrimmage harder. When you're in the gun, you're
at a standstill, you're sitting offset to the quarterback, and
you don't have that run up. So you need to
have guys that have really good explosiveness and really good
ten yard splits. You also want guys that can dance,

(19:03):
you know, out of early penetration and things like that.
So when I start to look at the way they
might build this offense under Josh McDaniels with Drake May
and think about the Travon Henderson pick, Travon Henderson is
a classic gun back, like, he's a classic gun run
RPO read option that type of running back. So if

(19:26):
they're going to lean into that sort of way of
doing things offensively, then they needed somebody in this mold
like they needed somebody that could do that sort of thing.
I am sure. I just we've both had Josh McDaniels
in our football worlds for a very long time. I
am sure there will be a time and place where

(19:47):
it's gonna be Remondra Stevenson in the power eye with
a full back in front of Yeah, there will be
a time and place for all of that. But my
guess is that we are going to see a lot
more shotgun than maybe they did with McDaniels in the past.
And you know, if that's the case, then this is
the type of running back that fits that type of mold.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
My guess is, when I was just kind of looking
up some usage how McDaniel's split running backs in the past,
my guess is, once they get it going, and maybe
they east Henderson into it, we'll see, depending on where
he's at a camp. But like, if they get it
where they want to get it, my guess is it's
going to be like sixty forty Henderson.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, I'd call it.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Fifty five thirty five with the other ten percent going
to Gibson or Lean laris In or somebody.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
And that's basically what it is in Detroit at this point,
is that Jamir Gibbs is the featured back, but it's
not necessarily the volume that you might see it for.
You know, true Bell.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Caek So feature to me is bell cow I used
this terminology earlier. I don't know if this is like
how everybody does it. This was his mine. So feature
back is remember that they asked Bill about they Corey
Dillon in two thousand and four. Feature back is Derrick Henry.
Feature back is right. Lead back just means the majority,

(21:01):
but he's not, okay, like a heavy usage.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
That's but I.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Would That's That's where I'm at with Henderson. I don't
think he's a feature back, but I think he'll end
up being the lead back.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, I agree with you, I really again, it's a
stylistic thing to me more than anything that if they're
going to play that kind of authensic cater to Drake May,
then he's their guy.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
He's the type of guy we're going to go under center.
More like, they still needed speed even from under center.
They needed more speed, especially at that position, and they
got more speed and breakaway ability.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, speaking to speed, this
is a good pace. We're not we're not getting bogged
down too much yet we will.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
We're twenty minutes in two picks. Okay, we're doing ten
minutes a pick.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, not bad Like normally this would be like us
deliberating a pick for like twenty and.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
It'll also get a little shorter as we go. But
I do want to get to the udfas. Don't want
to make sure we have time.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
For me too. All Right, the next pick, I'm gonna
do a golf clap. I want you to take a
victory lap. I want you to go ahead. I'm going
to clear the decks for you right now. Kyle Williams
six ninth. Overall, nice, nice to the Patriots from Washington State,
and I'm doing the golf clap. Yeah for Alex here
because you told me about Kyle Williams before the Senior Bowl.

(22:10):
This was your guy. You were on it, and he
just quickly crept up the board or not so quickly, honestly.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
It was just kind of all of a sudden, like
two weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, like steadily is a better word. Yeah, crept up
the board. Great Senior Bowl week that I slept on.
Feel bad about that.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
I'm telling you next year, just remember this. The last
guy up in the reps. Yeah you don't, because you're
like onto the next thing, right, Yeah, the last guy
up in there, because I'm guilty of this a training camp.
The last guy up in the reps. You gotta pay
attention to. So because he just lapped.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Up like every sneaky sneaky good Senior Bowl when ESPN
was going commercial and everybody comes out of the Senior
Bowl week asking of Jalen Nole for rightfully, so he
had a great week. He's a good player. I still
like Jalen Nole a lot, and nobody you know, he
was kind of still gotten a little bit. There he
goes to the combine, he puts down the four to four.

(23:05):
Then people started to rewatch the film maybe or even
just get to the film in general. Like me that
was late to it. I will give it kills me.
It pains me to do this, like one percent of
the credit to Chris Simms, because Chris Simms came out
and ran ranked him as like the second best receiver
in the class, and everybody said, whoa, Kyle Williams second

(23:26):
best receiver in the class? What am I missing here?
But nobody, nobody was earlier to Kyle Williams than this man.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
The Washington State coaching staff was we got to get
that credit. But from a draft point of view, yeah,
I And again we'll have that interview with Dane later
and I actually kind of asked him about why maybe
that was. And there's a couple different reasons, but the
big thing for me to get to Kyle Williams's pick.
I won't go back and read through the text I
sent you on.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
January enough stroking your ego twenty fifth.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
When I said, why is this guy eight hundred on
the consensus board? What am I missing? Eight hundred on
the cons his sport. But the big thing for me,
so I think part of the reason he went later
he's a late breakout player He's at UNLV for three years,
transferred to Washington State in twenty twenty three. He had
a solid year, he had eight hundred yards, like he
wasn't bad, but last year goes off top ten in

(24:18):
the nation and receiving all of that. And I actually,
and I wrote about this on ninety eight five the
sports sub dot com if people want to check it out.
I actually I asked him after the pick, like, what
changed for you? Right? Did he focus on something or
emphasize something in his game to allow that breakout season happen?
And he mentioned after the catch specifically, he said he

(24:39):
wants to extend plays. He specifically said being able to
turn a five yard hitch into a sixty yard touchdown,
a three yard screen into a sixty yard touchdown, which he.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Literally did at Washington State. Right, one was against Syracuse.
In the other one, I'm blanking on the team he
was playing against, but he.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Literally Syracuse one was a slat. But I know you're
what you're talking about. Yeah, So he went from averaging
five point five yards per carry in or five point
five yards after the catch for his career. That number
jumped to eight point four in twenty twenty four. The
Patriots meanwhile ranked twenty fifth as a whole in yards
after the catch in the NFL last year the wide

(25:17):
receivers alone, so as a team they averaged five flat
after the catch. The wide receivers alone averaged four, So
Kyle Williams last year Washington State was more than double that.
That's why I love this pick. He's going to be
able to play all three spots X Z slot he
gets open, he has separation metrics improved a lot last
year as well, and then because he gets so open,
he can run after the catch. Now it's one year

(25:38):
of production, so he's a little less proven and I
don't think the drop issues are as big as some
people are making them. But he's not exactly the most
short handed guy, so that's why he fell. But if
they can get that figured out, and by the way,
I think him working with Stefan Diggs is going to
be amazing because there are some similarities there. Certainly, at
least to me. I think he's a guy that can

(25:59):
be maybe a low end number one, certainly a high
end number two. I you know, doesn't quite have the
size to be that true like number one X guy,
but just his ability to create after the catch, which
he clearly worked on a lot last year. They desperately
needed that. I don't know the last time. The reason, Like,
I'm so nervous to say I like, I feel like

(26:19):
they're in a position to maximize Kyle Williams. Yeah, and
I'm nervous to say that because we've seen how it's
gone for wide receivers the last few years. But I
don't know the last time they had a wide receiver
with this makeup. Like, he's not the big slot, He's
not Jalen Polk, he's not a contested catch X. He's
not Jaevon Baker, Nikhil Harry. He probably profiles closest to Pop,

(26:40):
But Pop's not going to be outside playing the X.
Pop's not running you know, some of the deeper rats
that he's running. So this is the kind of wide
receiver we've wanted them to invest in for a long
time that they just haven't.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, and he's a great fit for Josh McDaniels, who
I agree that. You know, one of the things with
the draft is there's always these coin flip decisions, right,
Like they pick Kyle Williams. I had Jalen Nole in
full disclosure, I as with a higher grade than with
Kyle Williams, you know, higher up my rankings, I should say,
uh than Kyle Williams. So the honest question for people

(27:16):
that followed us pre draft and you know, looked at
my spreadsheet and my rankings and stuff, is well, why
all of a sudden are you now you know, big
Kyle Williams guy right, like you know what, shouldn't you
be saying that they should have drafted Jalen Nole? But
I think one of the coin flips and one of
the decisions here is about why did they draft the

(27:37):
player in Kyle Williams over Nol? And I think the
biggest reason is something that you hit on, is that
Kyle Williams has a little bit more ability to project
as an outside receiver.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
I think there's a little bit more there in terms
of him playing on the outside, whether it's as a
true X or whatever you want to call it. Then
with Noel Noll, I think profiled for pretty much ever
everybody as a true speed slot like he was an
inside receiver. That was what he was going to be
in the NFL. Level. With Kyle Williams, there's a lot

(28:09):
of really encouraging release work as an outside receiver. That
gives you hope that he maybe can play closer to
like a fifty to fifty split ideally, especially in this offense,
he is a chess piece that Josh McDaniels is moving
all around the formation to get him free release off
the line of scrimmage. Whether it's in motion, it's a stack,

(28:31):
it's a bunch, it's a slot rep, you know, whatever
the case may be, just hunting re releases all over
the field because when he gets those free releases, like
the play against Syracuse. Yeah, the Patriots have historically called
that too lane. It's they have that concept in their
offense where the receiver on the line of scrimmage kind

(28:51):
of runs a vertical, but he's really running a pick
like he's kind of running a rub right, and that's
going to create that pocket of space underneath the defense.
And Kyle Williams actually has an option on that route.
He can break in, or he can break out, or
he can settle against zone coverage, and he's just going
to rede leverage of the defender. So when the defender
sets up outside of him and he just breaks into

(29:12):
the middle of the field and then he's then he's
on the runway right, he's just shot out of a
cannon and houses it against against Syracuse in the Bowl
game last year. Those types of routes are typically run
by the Z receiver in this offense. But that's allus like,
it's kind of not here North there. It doesn't really matter.
The point is is that you can see Kyle Williams

(29:32):
doing things that easily translate right into Josh mcdaniels's scheme,
whereas I don't know if you could necessarily do that
with their past picks at receiver. What was Nikhil Harry's
fit in Josh mcdaniels's.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Office, It never made sense, right.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
What was Taekwon Thornton's fit? A sacrificial But he drafted
a sacrificial X with the fiftieth.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
And he kept part of that too, is his injuries
kept getting hurt.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
Right, But it just didn't feel like he wasn't a technician.
He he was in a great yards after catch guy.
He wasn't a quick hitter guy. He wasn't an early separator.
He wasn't a quick separator off the line of scrimmage.
They drafted a vertical X receiver to play in an
offense that doesn't feature vertical X receivers. With Jalen Polk,
I think there was a little bit more translation of

(30:17):
what they used to do in the past, but probably
not as much translation in an Alex Van Pelt offense,
which is what they were drafting for at the time.
So it just seems like this player has a great
marriage between what he does well, what McDaniels wants to feature,
and what the team needed, and all three of those
things kind of came together with Kyle Williams in a

(30:38):
really nice way. So the rep that I keep going
back to other than the Syracuse one just because it's
a concept that I've seen the Patriots run a million
times is twenty twenty three when he runs right by
Travis Hunter. Like that ability on the outside to just
stack and separate on a go route outside the numbers
on the best cornerback in the name like that, you

(31:01):
hope is going to translate a little bit more then
let's say, like a Jail and Nole would have done.
Whereas you know, Nole is probably a little bit more
polished as a route runner right now in terms of
the technique and the top of the route and all
that kind of stuff. So I wanted to try to
do comps for most of these guys. I think it
helps people understand. I think the archetype the ceiling of

(31:22):
this mold is Garrett Wilson. And I don't know if
he's Garrett Wilson, like I've heard that comp with him.
Garrett Wilson was I believe the eleventh or twelfth overall
pick in his draft, absolute stud offensive, Rookie of the Year,
perennial Pro bowler. That is a very high bar for
the sixty ninth overall pick in the draft. I don't

(31:43):
know if Kyle Williams is going to get to Garrett
wilson territory.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Williams also had much more runways just you know, yeah,
he broke out younger.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
So I would say the guy that I've gravitated towards,
and just because from a measurable standpoint and a play
style standpoint, is you shot Bateman in Baltimore, And I know,
Rashat Bateman sounds like a bust when you say the
name ra Shod Bateman. He had a really nice year
last year for Baltimore when he was finally healthy. He's
battled injuries in Baltimore. There's no doubt about that. But

(32:13):
I'm just talking about turning on the film and watching
the player, like not necessarily slistically, right, taking on all
the injury baggage and stuff like that. If you watch
Rashat Bateman last year with the Baltimore Ravens, he was
like a top twenty, top twenty five receiver in the league.
Let's not forget not only was has he been heard
They don't throw the ball a ton in Baltimore, right,

(32:35):
so you have to adjust a lot of their numbers
for the fact that they are a run heavy offense.
So I like Rashaw Baby maybe a little bit more
than other people, but I think that Kyle Williams is
a similar kind of player. Really, just a lot to
like about the pick in terms of the schematic fit
and all those different things. The last thing I wanted
to say about Kyle Williams, where do we see this going?

(32:57):
Because right now I think they have like eleven or
twelve depending on the UDFA signings wide receivers on the roster.
This is going to be probably the number one question.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Would you remember a couple of years ago, was it
last year? Two years ago? They literally didn't have enough
receivers in like the spring because some guys were hurt.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, so they have twelve. I have them with twelve
receivers right now, and this is including udfhase, which are
not official. I should put that out there.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
This is they signed what reportedly signed with three.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Three So yeah, I'll just rd them off quickly. Diggs, mccollins,
Pop Douglas, Kyle Williams. I think those four guys I
had them at the top of the list because they're
going to be on the roster in some way, shape
or form. Digs might be on pup, but he's going
to be on the team. We know that. Kendrick Bourne,
Kashawan Boody, the picks last year, Polkin Baker, John Giles

(33:48):
is still kicking around, e FT and Chisholm. Who I
want to get to when we get to the udfas
demere blankh Moosy blank of Moosey.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Oh yeah wait, hang on, I got I know I
can pronounce it if I'm reading it.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Very sorry. I think it's Blank Music, Blank Museum and
Jeremiah Webb. Those are their twelve receivers right now, including
the udfas. How do we see on April thirtieth, with
absolutely zero practices that we've watched or witnessed at this point,
how do you see this room shaking out? Or I
think a better question is for right now, you know,

(34:21):
who's the one guy that you really feel like is
going to be an odd man out. I think it's
hard right now just to sit here and say without
seeing even any OTA's exactly how they look at the room.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, I think so those four off the top right,
I still think people are gonna criticize me for this
because he's been my guy for I still think Kendrick
Horne is a good shot to make the team because
it went so well with him and Josh McDaniels last time.
And I just think McDaniels likes him. So that's five, right,

(34:53):
And then it comes down to Kashawan, Boody and the
two rookies for that last spot or the two rookies
from last year for that last spot. They've shown it
they're not afraid of significant roster turnover. That was another
takeaway for me from this draft and just the way
they kind of went about and really the off seas
as a whole. People were, you know, talking back in
January about you know, you got a clean house. How
much the roster can they change people? Kind of facetiously

(35:15):
saying keep Drake, keep Christian Zalez, move on from the rest.
And I was there saying, like, realistically, like forty to
forty five percent is a pretty significant roster turnover from
one year to another in the NFL generally, that's the case.
I think that they're going beyond the typical here. I
think it's gonna be well in this is I'm talking
forty to forty five percent. That's fifty three man roster

(35:38):
week eighteen to fifty three men roster week one. We
still got a ways to go before we get to
the initial fifty three man roster, but it might be
over fifty percent. So you know, Born Booty, Pulk Baker.
I don't think any of those guys are safe, especially
you know, just one of the udfases, Eft and Chisel
make a push. So it's those four are gonna make it.
Pop Hollins Digs if he's not on pup, and then

(36:03):
Kyle Williams, right, those four will make it. After that,
I think it's wide open for one, maybe maybe two spots.
There's gonna be some guys that get cut that I
don't know surprise is the right word, but.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Have some NFL talent NFL ability. I've come around to
Kayshawan Boody a little bit, just because stylistically, again, if
you need that sacrificial X, like that true sacrificial X
that we've seen here in the past with Josh McDaniels,
Nelson Aguilar, right, like, someone like that, that's kind of

(36:35):
Kaysehan Boody to me is a guy that can run
verticals on the outside, do a pretty good job with it,
maybe occasionally catch a slant or something underneath off of
the vertical stem, and every once in a while he's
gonna sneak behind Derek Stingley for a bomb, right And
if that's all that role is in this offense moving forward,
then he showed last year that he has the ability

(36:58):
to do that at an NFL level. So has Javon
Baker proven that. No has Jalen Polk, even though I
think he'll get a really really strong chance as a
second round pick in his second year. Neither one of
those guys have shown yet that they can do anything
NFL caliber like Keayshawn Booty has. So it seems odd

(37:18):
to me. And this it's a trade, and because he
has the most value in a trade, that could maybe
make some sense that they deal Booty to get some
something better.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
Unless they just think Mac Collins is gonna do that.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, maybe I feel like Booty gets down the field
a little bit better than Mac Collins. But I could
see that. I just out of all these guys, I
feel like Booty I've come around the most two uh
being on the team.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Javon Baker blank demere blank emcy blank emcy.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Okay, Uh, Javon Baker is squarely on the bubble like that.
He's gonna need a really really good camp. I would
say he's probably gonna need a really good offseason, like
it's gonna OTAs included mini camp, training camp all the
way through. He's gonna have to be consistent and he's
gonna to be good.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
It's even on the bubble or is he on the
outside looking at.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Probably on the outside looking yeah, to be more fair
about it, all right, anything else on Kyle Williams.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
No, I think that's other than your victory kind of
killed their pace there, No.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
That's okay, that was worth it. That was a good pick.
All right, next one here, Jared Wilson, ninety fifth overall
center from Georgia.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Let me point out first real quick. They traded down
twice to get him. Yeah, so I was harping future picks,
future picks, future picks.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Got one they got on twenty twenty six, fourth.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Right, So nice pick, and some people think the Bears
might be really bad. I was kind of surprised how
many people were, like, that could be a top hundred
ten pick, but like you take that, they also a
future sixth and seventh. Yeah, if the Bears are bad
enough that fourth plus that sixth, maybe you're back in
the top one hundred.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah. No, it's a it's it's not a bad a
bad asset to have. Yeah, in the old tool belt, Okay,
Jared Wilson. I I feel a little bit like, because
he's a center, people are not talking enough of about
Jared Wilson as a part of this foursome of offensive
players that they drafted out the top. It's not the
fourth overall pick, it's not too flashy skill players. So

(39:09):
I get it. I get that it's a center, But
besides Campbell, I feel like there's a really nice floor
to Jared Wilson where I feel pretty comfortable projecting Jared
Wilson as a starter at some point. I don't know
if it will be right out of the gate. It
might be midway through his rookie year, his second year,
even maybe he's the sixth man on the offensive line

(39:32):
next year as like a three interior three interior spot player.
But everything that I've watched of him and everything I've
heard of about Jared Wilson is that this is a
center that is really dynamic. And when you talk about centers,
just like a Mike linebacker on defense, the center kind

(39:55):
of sets the pace for the offensive line in the
run game. So if you want to be dynamic downhill
run scheme that can get to the second level, and
you want to get out up to the second level
and get those interior guys into combinations and get them
up to the second level, or you want to run
stretch or outside zone to get to the numbers, the

(40:17):
center is the one that's setting the pace of that.
So if you want to do those types of things,
which I think the Patriots want to do more the
former than the latter, an athletics center really helps. And
when you look across the league at guys that have
his level of athleticism, whether you know it's Eric McCoy
and New Orleans or you know, Jason Kelsey's kind of
the apex of that, right, you know, he's the top

(40:40):
tier of this. When you look at those types of guys,
it just opens a lot of what you are able
to do schematically, whether it's run game, screen game, moving pockets,
things like that. So that's why I would say that
I'm really excited or high on the pick with Jared
Wilson is because of his athleticism. Center position, you're not

(41:02):
normally covered these days, like maybe there's a shade over
your outside shoulder that you have to in a slide
you'd have to get to, or on a reach or
something like that. On the line of scrimmage double team
obviously you're getting to. But you're not a lot of
hit up rushers anymore these days over the center, especially
on early downs, and teams don't play with a ton

(41:22):
of zero technique nose tackles. So he's more of an
athletic center. Wide body, like his frame, like the way
he carries the weight as well. I just think that
this guy has a really nice floor to him as
the ninety fifth pick. When you pick ninety five, he's
kind of two ways to go about it. You can

(41:42):
either pick a guy that has first round traits but
doesn't have a first round pedigree, or you can pick
a guy that's getting on base right. You can go
both ways. Jared Wilson kind of splits the atom to
me because he's got the athleticism to have a high upside,
and he's young and he only had that one year
of starting at Georgia. But he's all also a guy
that I feel like could probably start at center, Like

(42:03):
if they had an honest competition between him and Garrett
Bradbury in camp, I think Jared Wilson might win the competition.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
And I think they might have that competition. Yeah, to me,
that's what this is all about. How long can get?
So we talk sometimes about you know, day one starter,
Year one starter, right, where a day one starter is
a guy Will Campbell. How many's gonna be the left
tack was no question about it. Year one starter is
a guy that, okay, like he might not be ready
to go week one of his rookie year, but by
the end of his rookie year he should be the starter.

(42:33):
I think Jared Wilson is in that category. Yeah, he's
a year one starter. It's just about how long Bradbury
can hold him off. And maybe who knows, maybe it
is week one. But like I think Jared Wilson is
going to be the starting center by the end of
the year. I know Elliott Wolf said that they think
he can play some guard. To me, that's probably more
an emergency thing. Yeah, and you know, if they really
need somebody. I don't think he's going to be fully
in there competing for that left guard role. I think

(42:56):
it's more if they need him there, fine, but they
want to develop as a center because he has the
ability to be a long term center in the NFL.
You mentioned the athleticism. The other thing is he's an
incredibly smart football player. Yeah, and the commands going back
to the quarterback. We think with Josh McDaniels were last
year it was the center setting all those protections. But
the center is still going to help in that and
the center's still gonna help communicate along the offensive line.

(43:18):
Guy that's really smart, really athletic. If he was a
two year starter, I think he probably goes top fifty. Yeah,
you know, he was the first center off the board.
I just think what was tough for him is in
this draft there is a lot of experience lineman. Two
three four year starters on the offensive line, his one
year starter and he really didn't play a ton before
that at all at Georgia. Like, he's really raw. So

(43:43):
if you you know, read the scouting reports that are
on there, they talk about hand placement, they talk about,
you know, his footwork and things like that. I'm not
saying that those knocks are wrong, but it's he looks
like a guy that hasn't played a lot of football
because he hasn't a lot of that stuff is very fixable.
It's just gonna come with reps. The preseason is gonna
be huge for him. He will be one of the
most important players to watch this preseason and we'll see

(44:03):
if he can kind of learn quickly and grow quickly.
I think he can push Bradberry sooner rather than later.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing with him, like you said,
you know, I just looked it up real quick. Drew
Kendall from Boston College. You went to the Eagles. He
had thirty seven career starts at Boston College. At center.
Wilson only had twelve at Georgia. So especially when you
talk about centers and you talk about the responsibility mentally

(44:28):
on centers. Normally, when you get guys in the draft
that play center, unless they're like Zabel, who's like a
tackle or a guard that's moving to center. Guys that
were career centers that are getting drafted as centers, those
guys are like three, four, sometimes even five year starters,
like they might have upwards of forty to fifty starts
in college. So you're talking about guys that have a

(44:50):
ton of experience. That's not Jared Wilson. He's a guy
that has a ton of upside and a ton of ability,
but doesn't have the experience. Now, the one thing that
did make me feel a little bit better when I
was talking to some of his coaches at Georgia, they
pointed out in practice over the last couple of years
he's been running scout team until this most recent year,

(45:11):
think about the Georgia interior defensive lineman that he's been
facing on scout team for his freshman and sophomore year.
They the way they put it to me was that
practice might have been harder than some of the games
that he was going to be playing in. Now it's
a different energy, right, it's a different moment, it's a
different environment. But in terms of the skill and the
talent he was going up against in practice at Georgia,

(45:34):
they obviously have a ton of just ridiculous players there
that have come through there on the interior defensive line.
So in some ways, like he's almost battle tested, but
just behind the scenes in a weird way, so that
that would be interesting. You mentioned Guard. I agree with
you well that long term, there's no doubt about it,

(45:55):
that centers his best position and having like I said earlier,
having a dynamic center that can do different things on
the move, and I can also really quickly side note,
we're watching Good Morning Football on this side screen and
Trags was just on Good Morning. Oh yeah, saw the
Let's Go track, the Clinton is Mike flag and everything. Anyway, sorry,

(46:18):
that was just distracting, uh our guy track shout out Trags. Uh.
Like I said earlier, you know, just letting him just
unlocking him at the center position to climb to get
out in front of blocks in the screen game. I
go watch him against Tennessee, just like you know, clipping
guys in space right, Like, that's what he does at

(46:41):
his best, and I think that he gets the most.
You get the most out of that if he plays center.
So I would assume he's going to play center long term.
But is there a world where their best five includes
him and Bradbury?

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Because I think there is, there could be. I mean,
maybe he.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Plays a little bit of left guard as aokie.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
I would just say, like they got I get wanting
guys to be able to play multiple positions. I'm not
against that philosophically, but there is a tipping point where
the guy's got to learn the position he's gonna play.
And last year's coaching staff was way too In across
training we talked about this. There was you know, you're
trying to get Kate Wallace to move from right to left.
You're playing right left, you're playing MC guard. It's like, no,

(47:22):
he has learn he has to play the position you're
trying to teach him. And so with Jared Wilson, he's
best long term at center. So if they think that's
what's best for him to play center long term, fine,
But if it's not that much of a gap between
him and whoever the next best left guard is I
would almost just let him keep working at center, just

(47:43):
because that's really where you need him to develop and learn. Now,
maybe that is playing left guard. Maybe they think the
best way to do that is by playing left guard.
But I would make all my decisions regarding him about
getting him ready to be Drake may center for the
next ten years.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Fair Enough. The only reason why I brought up the
left guard thing, because I mostly agree with what you
just said, is because he might be the best blocker
to play that position. And if he's really ready, but
you don't feel like he's mentally ready to be the center,
then he can play left guard where he has none
of the mental you're you're still getting him on the

(48:19):
field and he's still playing.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
I'm not rolling out entirely. I just I think that
there's tremendous value in him playing center, and I want
that to be where he hands up long term.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
All right, let's move on to day three. We're we're
cruising a little bit. We've got a little bit bogged
down there, but we're all right. Uh. Craig Woodson in
the fourth round, one of six overall from cal Now,
to be perfectly honest, if I had to grade the
Patriots draft, Yeah, I would give them an A minus.
And the reason why I wouldn't give them an A

(48:47):
is because I didn't love this pick. This was not
the pick I would have personally made. Now that doesn't
mean anything. In two to three years, they could Craig
Woodson could end up being really good exactly.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
But with that being said, this was the only pick
in the entire draft that they broke off consensus. So
this is the only pick that they kind of went
out on a limb on a little bit, both you
and I and I want to speak for you, but
I feel like this is the case. Saw Billy Bowman
and Malchai Moore as better players than Craig woods Yeah,

(49:20):
and they went right after Craig Woodson in the fourth round.
There was a little run on safeties, so they read
the run correctly. They I believed that maybe there was
some interest in Kevin Winston, the Penn State safety that
went at the end of Day two, So they read
the run correctly. They jumped on Woodson before the kid

(49:41):
from Ohio State went. Was it Latham Lately, Ransom, Malchi Moore,
Billy Bowman, all those guys Williams dinner. They all went
in like the span of like thirty two picks. Yeah,
so they read the run and they got their guy
in Woodson, unless it was Winston in the third round,

(50:02):
but they ended up getting one of their guys in Woodson.
To start on the positives with Woodson and then I
want to talk about kind of unpack why they might
have went with Woodson instead of more or Billy Bowman,
who we liked better Woodson when I watched him on tape,
what I liked the most about him was his reactions
in space or his instincts in space. I think he's

(50:24):
got a really good motor, athleticism, physical nature to his game.
Could play demeanor, can strike the football, can separate the
ball from receivers coming over the middle of the field,
really good at rotating into the box or starting down
low and run support, screen support, perimeter support, all those
different types of things that you do. He's got some

(50:46):
experience at Nickel. I'll get to that in a second.
I think there are is and you got a lot
of this question. I'm sure you did too. You know,
could he be Deron Harmon right?

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Like?

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Can he play free safety over the top? I do
think he can do that. I don't think it's he's
not going to be Devin mccorty. He's probably gonna be
closer to de Ron Harmon, But I do think he
has the ability to do that. They played a lot
of split safety coverage in cal but they rotated their safeties.
And one of the things that we've heard a lot
about from the Patriots coaching staff and a couple times

(51:18):
we've gotten to speak with the position coaches is that
they want to be interchangeable at the safety position. They
don't want this guy's free safety, that guy's strong safety,
this guy's playing post, that guy's playing robber, and to
have teams be able to predict which ones which on
a down to down basis. So when it comes to
why they took Whitston over Bowman, why they took him

(51:38):
over more, I think the main reason is his size.
Like he's got a little bit more size. He's over
six feet two hundred and five pounds. Bowman and Moore
were like five ten five eleven one ninety ish. So
if they're going to be interchangeable at safety, and they're
going to want him to rotate down and fly down
into the box, and put his hat his hat in

(51:59):
the run game. He's got a little bit more size
and a little bit more kirk to him and you know,
mass to his frame to be able to handle the
run responsibilities of doing that. So, if I had to guess,
it's probably like a size profile that they just preferred
with Woodson over the guys we like.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
They didn't. Yeah, we wanted a true free safety. They
wanted somebody like you said, he can do both a phil.
Phil Perry pointed out some similarities to guys like Kevin
Byerd and Kenny Vacaro, who Mike Rabel obviously had in Tennessee.
So I don't think we're gonna maybe it's Marcus EPs
like situationally, but I don't think we're gonna see that
true dedicated free safety this year. I think it's still

(52:38):
gonna be rotating with Dougar and Peppers and Woodson and
moving guys around there.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Now, the other thing that he had to done a
little bit Woodson is play the nickel, and Elliott Wolf
alluded to it after the draft or one of his
don't know, I'll kind of bund it together one of
his pre draft press conferences or post draft press conferences
excuse me. Over the weekend, he alluded to the big
nickel being in this defense and having a guy that

(53:04):
isn't Marcus Jones body type, but is more of like
a Craig Woodson body type frankly right, like a guy
that's maybe pushing over two hundred pounds that can cover.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
The one thing that I hesitated with with with Woodson
UH and that role is I thought his man coverage
tape was a little bit inconsistent, UH watching him against Syracuse, UH,
he faced Gats in their tight end a handful of times,
and I thought Gatson got the better of the matchup.
I thought he struggled in man coverage against him. So

(53:33):
that's a that's a receiving tight end, Like, that's what
Gatson's really like, a big slot receiver.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
He was.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Yeah, so that that's his specialty. But I don't know
if I saw the transitions or the smoothness and his
hips uh and his in his transitions to be able
to stick in man to man coverage against dynamic tight ends.
We'll see maybe maybe they cleaned that up. Maybe that
was just one game and he cleans that up moving forward.
But I wouldn't necessarily say I thought he was a

(54:02):
high end man coverage player. I thought he was a
little bit on the lower end in that vein. But
what I did like about him a lot, like I said,
was his ability to track the football in terms of
like having eyes in the backfield on the quarterback and
the backfield action and then making place.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
He also talked about Woodson himself set some long lines
like I love contact, I'd love to hit people, whatever
that means. Like his athletic profile, that demeanor. He's going
to be a stud on special teams.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
So I think that's probably part of it.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
So yeah, that's a great point. Fourth round pick probably
projects as like a third safety.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Third safety, key special teamer. You know, they'll see when
those Duggers and Pepper's contracts start to run up, you know,
steps into a bigger role in a couple of years.
But I see what they're going for with to pick,
Like I understand why they made it. I personally would
have gone in a different direction, but like you said,
it doesn't matter what we would have done.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Yep. Fair enough. And just last thing on Woodson and
that that point, I the consensus. The consensus. I think
it's it's it's fair to share that information. Like I said,
this was the first pick that really broke from consensus. Well,
but he was in like the one eighties on most
consensus board.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
No, but didn't a lot of like like Brugler had
him fourth round, right, Dane had a sixth round.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Right now.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
I thought I saw some of the national guys.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
So the one, the one national guy that had him
higher was Daniel Jeremiah. Daniel Jeremiah was really big on Woodson.
He had really nice things to say on the broadcast
about how he didn't see what everybody else was missing
with you know, he thought he was crazy thinking that
this guy was better than everybody else did. And he
was really high on the pick. So hopefully DJ ends
up being right. You know that tends to Yeah, So

(55:41):
that that's Craig Woodson. Oh yeah, this was the other
thing I wanted to say about him before we move on.
I feel like there's a lot of conversations out there
about safety not being in need, and I feel like
we were all over safety as a potential need not
to like toot our own horns. But Kyle Duggart did
not have the or that they wanted him to have
last year, he was hurt, he didn't play well when

(56:03):
he was out there. We all know what happened with
Jabrill Peppers off the field. Like, there's not a whole
lot of security right now in terms of those two
guys like being what they thought they were going to
be when they signed those extensions. So as much as
I don't necessarily see Woodson pushing either one as like
a starting safety to begin with, I don't think that
it's that crazy that they targeted a good.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Spots have depth. I thought, well, I was saying safety
in the need of the you know, free safety kind
of thing, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yeah, all right. Joshua Farmer one of my favorite picks
of the draft. Both these guys, I thought, just the
value that they got out of Farmer and Swinson picking
them where they did, probably at least in Farmer's case,
maybe more like a half around later than people expected. Swinston,
I would say, a round or two later than a
lot of people expected. So really good value with both

(56:54):
these players. And what I like about both of them
together is that one sort of like a hybrid tweeer
defensive end defensive tackle. One's like a true edge rusher,
you know, it's off the outside the tackle. So like
together they make a nice kind of situational player.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Yeah, where if they're gonna they're gonna be high five
and a lot coming on and off the field.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
Yeah, So Farmer can play on inside, you know, defensive end,
like I said, hand the dirt end or handing the
dirt defensive tackle on early downs. Swinson can be a
pass for a specialist on third down. And you have
this nice little like you said, high fiving each other
kind of reminds me different positions, but like similar to
like Anthony Jennings and Joshua uch right, or like together

(57:39):
they're a complete player. Like they aren't good complete players individually,
but together they're a complete player. With Farmers specifically, a
couple of things that stand out. On the positive end,
his upper body twitch and power and length are just
very noticeable. The second debt you turn on the tape,
he has thirty five in charms. So this is a

(58:00):
long armed, powerful, well built human being that really didn't
necessarily play to his trades all the time. But I
love the chance that they're taking here with Ray Bowl
with Terrell Williams. Like, give Terrell Williams right the raw
tools the guy, and let's see if Terrell Williams can

(58:20):
seizon him up and can round about his game farmer,
very strong at the point of attack, very good length,
very good pressing, shed ability, Like there's a ton of
evidence of him just rocking an offensive lineman back and
just throwing him to the side, right and just discarding
guys in the run game. In the pass rush, there's
speed to power there. There's obviously bowl with the longer arms.

(58:42):
There's a little bit of a swim move that he
can go to and a swipe. But when he was
rushing off the edge, he likes to swipe. So I
think he can play a little bit of four three end.
I think you can play a little bit of three technique.
I like the versatility and I love the tools. Now
there's some work to be done here in terms of
the tech which we can get to. But on the
positive end, that that's what I see with him.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Yeah, and a guy that I think you kind of
allude to. It can play multiple positions along the defensive line,
and it is very athletic. Was better as a run
stopper at Florida State, but just because of his athleticism,
probably has some pass rush upside. Yeah, I think the
idea is you put him bar more Milton Williams keyon
white and that's your front. Right. Those are four guys
that are athletic. Those are four guys that can move around.

(59:23):
We know they're not going to blitz a ton. Mike
Rabel kind of alluded to that. I think it was
in his introductory press conference early on. Yeah, you know,
he was kind of asked his philosophies on the blitz
and said, it's more about when you do it than
how often you do it. So you got to generate pressure.
Those are guys you can run a ton of games with.
You can move them around, you're gonna keep offensive lines
on their toes. So he's just another piece that fits
that mold. They're a little small up front now, which

(59:45):
I do worry about. I thought they might add another
nose tackle. But because Farmers a better run stopper than
his size would suggest, which makes me like, like, like
this pick a little more than just getting the average
toolsy rusher, because they do need guys who can play
the run.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Yeah. So he's six three three oh five with the
thirty five inch arms. Yeah, so even though he's only
three oh five and thirty five inch arms helped create
that separation for blocks and create the distance so that
they can't get up underneath him and drive him off
the ball, which helps him kind of make up for
the fact that he's only three oh five, right, So
that helps. Now with that being said, you know, on

(01:00:20):
the other side of the coin, because we're when you
talk about a player like this and you're speaking so highly, well,
he went in the fourth round, so there has to
be a reason he wasn't a higher pick. I thought
some of the things you know that I wrote down
in my notes, just you know, he will get washed
out by double teams. I don't think this is a
guy that you really want him to get vertical into
the block and really attack the base block, right. You

(01:00:41):
don't want him trying to hold the point of attack
and posting.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Up and so the opposite of the defensive tackles that
they've had, like they would have never drafted this guy
under built. And that doesn't mean he's bad players. Stylistically,
he's very different than what Patriots fans are used to
seeing at the defensive.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Yeah, so as much as he's got a powerful upper
body and good twitch off the ball, and he's got
good snap quickness to really get into the line of
scrimmage and fire his hands. But if you're asking him
to eat blocks, like that's not his game. He's not
a block eater. He's more of like a reset the
line of scrimmage kind of guy and then use his
upper body power to shed the block. I would also say,

(01:01:18):
you know, just in the pass rush, his pads will
get up and then that will sap his power. So
like when he goes to bull rush guys, he gets
a little high with his pads and then then he
doesn't have the bull rushing power that you would probably
like to see out of him as like a foundational
rush in his pass rush. So there's some technique stuff
in general, block anticipation technique stuff that they will need

(01:01:38):
to you know, round out or improve as his career progresses.
But like I said earlier, I just I love the
idea of giving a guy like this to Terrell Williams.
Like I think Terrell Williams will fix a lot of
those types of things or work to mitigate them, you know,
kind of like Bill style, where you just hide them
instead of maybe you can't get it out of him.

(01:01:59):
So you just kind of hide him. But the one
thing I will say, I didn't think that he consistently
played to his physical ceiling, Like he has a much
higher physical ceiling than what he showed at at Florida
State at times. But I think that he can get
there with the right type of coaching. So I'm excited
about seeing Terrell Williams work with a player like this

(01:02:22):
all right in the fifth round bright In Swinson from
lsu A, is it fair to call him a media darling?
He's kind of a media darling, Like I feel like
the draft media was very high.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Well, I think I'm very because of how much he fell. Yeah, right,
a guy that was. I don't even think Consts's top
one hundred. I think in sins Hiss top seventy five.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Yeah, I had him in the top one hundred for short.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
And to get him at one forty six, I think
that was a big part of it. Was just like
there's always those players here and there in the draft. Evan,
I'm sure you've experienced it, especially once you get into
Day three, the picks or something coming so quick, and
you're following what your team's doing, and you know you'll
see a guy get drafted. He hadn't gotten yet. Yeah,
Like I think CJ. Dupree is a UGFA with somebody
like that for me. But I think Swinson a lot
of people probably you know, you're doing what you're doing

(01:03:02):
on day three and you're not necessarily tracking each individual pick,
trying to catch up every you know, five ten minutes
and suddenly it's wait, he hadn't gone yet, And I
think he was one of those guys.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
So I had him eighty seventh in my top one hundred.
Him and Jordan Birch from Oregon were really close for me.
Like there Birch go, I think he went a little
bit earlier, but similar players, you know, similar type.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Jordan Birch went. Well know you have them similar some
curiosies for the point of the value. Birch went seventy eight. Yeah,
so it's not a little bit sooner.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I'll let I'll let Dane talk about some of the
reasons why he might have fallen.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Swinston was seventy one on the consensus.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
We asked Dan about Swinson, who was his favorite Day
three pick out of the Patriots Hall, and he had
some good intel on why he might have fallen. So
you guys will hear that at the end of the show.
But in terms of Swinson's skill set, I describe him
as a speed to power rusher, Like that's sort of
how I see him. Other people see him as more
of a pure speed guy with a great bend. I

(01:03:58):
think he's got a little bit of both his game. Look,
he had sixty pressures last year at LSU, So sixty
pressures in the SEC is not something to it's.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Not light work.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
That's not light work.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
And he didn't have to face the short arm tackle.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Yeah right, he only did in practice, So sixty.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Se LSU put out a picture of the two of
them in practice, like going at each other. Yeah, that's
always cool.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Sixty pressures and thirty one stops too in twenty twenty
four at LSU. That's really good production. And what I
like so much about Swinson and players of this mold,
I think when you look at the players that succeed
in the past rushing in the NFL, most of them
win with speed and win with bent. It's not a

(01:04:41):
lot and sometimes it happens like like hand up, I
kind of not miss, but like was lower than I
should have been on Jared Verse because Jared versus a
straight through you to the quarterback kind of guy, right,
Like he is a power rusher and a lot of
the times you get burned by those guys Tyree Wilson, Right,
that's the guy in Vegas that they drafted like eight

(01:05:02):
to oh level a couple of years ago. That would
just ragged all people. Well, you can do that at
the college level, you can't necessarily do that at the
NFL level. Well, I like so much about Swinton is
that he does have speed off the line, and he
has bent so he can win with pure speed on
the edge. I think he can also generate or create
or convert speed to power. He has a really good

(01:05:22):
first step. He has decent length on the edge about
you know, average to above average length. So I think
that he's a guy that, even though there's some knocks
on him in the run defense in terms of setting
the edge and posting up and being thirty out there
and all that kind of stuff, when you see him,
you know, off the weak side, being able to get
downhill at the line of scrimmage, he can run through

(01:05:44):
blockers and he can make plays in the run game
that way. Short term, his best path to getting on
the field or making an impact on the team is
rushing the passer. There's no doubt about that. He's definitely
a situational third down rusher on in his career. But
similar to what we do with Uch over the years,
like can he get good enough against the run to

(01:06:07):
be a three down player? That's gonna be the question
with him. I have no doubt in my mind he's
going to stick in the league as a pass rusher. Yeah,
He's going to be a third down situational pass rusher
in the NFL. The question is is he going to
be able to be more than that? That's I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
Yeah, it's a fair question. But for where they took
him to get a situational pass rusher there and they
needed more pass rush depth, So it makes sense to me.
I think he's another guy too that if the coach
is like, this is a coaching staff that's kind of
coached up guys with these row trades and got in
a high level. So he mentioned he was excited to
work with the Patriots coaching staff when when we talked

(01:06:42):
to him after the pick. Yeah, so we'll see, but
I think there is untap potential there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Yeah, he's over two hundred and fifty pounds, So he's
not tiny. It's not like he's six three, two fifty five.
So he's a well built guy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
He's not built like if you think like speed rusher, like,
he's not built like any of those guys just flying
around the edge, right, And.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
He's not built like a guy that couldn't be better
against the run right right, Like, he's not a two
ordred He's not Jasiah Stewart, where he's six and forty
pounds soaking wet. I just thought some of the things
that he struggled with in the run game. He's a
he's a he's a head ducker into contact. So like
when he comes off the ball and he sees the block,

(01:07:19):
he's gonna duck his head into contact, and that's to
generate power and force right into the block, right. But
the problem when you do that is is that you
lose sight of the football. So what happened to him
is he would duck his head into contact, he would
create movement, but then the guy would bounce out of
his edge and he wouldn't see it coming, right, He
wouldn't have eyes in the backfield, or it would be

(01:07:40):
like a zone read and he wouldn't see the quarterback
keep it, so he'd lose the edge that way. Those
were the things that you saw with some of the
head ducking with him on tape, a couple of the
other things just I discipline, you know, misdirection, you know,
those are the things that I thought were you know,
kind of had him. Anchor was a little hit or

(01:08:01):
miss in the run game as well. So even though
the anchor, I don't know if that's gonna asking brew.
Maybe it does. Maybe he adds more mass in play
strength in the NFL NFL strength and conditioning program, as
Paul Pirella likes to say. But in my mind that
if he can just be more eyes in the backfield
and head up in eyes in the backfield, and more

(01:08:21):
focused on the ball in the backfield, I actually don't
think he necessarily needs to be super strong on the edge,
especially in a scheme like this. It's going to allow
him to get up the field. So I think Swinson's
going to be a solid gift for them in the
fifth rounding. Most people do all right, it's your time
to shine again. The kicker. Yeah, how excited are you
that the Patriots drafted the kicker Alex So.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
I like the way they did this. A lot of
people are nervous. We're talking Andy Boorgallis from Miami Automatic
Andy as they called him. I like that, which is
is is fair because he Jeremy Springer when we talked
to him last month, said consistency. That was like the
big thing he kept talking out when he's asked about kickers, consistency, consistency, consistency.

(01:09:03):
Borgallis the most consistent kicker in the draft. He doesn't
have necessarily the highest highs compared to some other guys,
but he never like Ben Saals, was my guy for
a while, right. Ben Saals did have a pretty bad
twenty twenty three, Like he was not good in twenty
twenty three, rebounded in a big way in twenty twenty four.
Borgallis was just steady Eddy, steady Andy, like he his

(01:09:27):
numbers took a jump in twenty twenty four was his
best season. But he never really had You don't really
look at him having a bad year. He just kind
of got progressively better every year. So that's why I
think they took him. And I get people might be
nervous after what happened with Chad Ryland a couple years ago,
so where it's a little different. They took Chad Rylands

(01:09:48):
in the fourth round. He was there I think fifth pick,
fourth or fifth pick.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
They took Andy Borgallis in the sixth round as their
eighth pick I believe seventh or eighth, So it's a
lot lot less risk for a guy that I think
is a better kicker. The other thing is Borgoalis is
the first kicker off the board. The Patriots actually kicked
off the kicker and Tyler Lup went to the Ravens
a few picks later. The reason the Patriots took Ryland
as high as they did in that draft was the

(01:10:15):
forty nine ers reached on Jake Moody, who also hasn't
been great. They took Jake Moody in the top one hundred,
so that was more reactionary pick than anything else. The Patriots.
They this was not like, shoot, we got to get
a kicker, and you know, drafting somebody higher because you're afraid. No,
they took the kicker when they wanted to take the kicker.
So you know he should beat out John Parker Romo
for the job. He's a guy that doesn't have the

(01:10:38):
biggest leg, but has a big leg. I think you
feel comfortable fifty to fifty one fifty two. I don't
know that he's somebody you're going to in the like
fifty seven fifty eight range, but you know, I know
you feel strongly about this. You and the past have
been okay with that because you want them going for
it in that range. You don't want some kicking field goals.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
So come on, stretch, do it for me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
His career on stretch, his career long is fifty six.
He's been pretty good from fifty when he's tried it,
but it's mostly low fifties. So it's not like Nick Folk,
all right, forty and in he's automatic, anything like forty
nine plus, you're just not going to try he'll step
into that fifty range. But he's consistent, he's experienced, and

(01:11:22):
he also one of his coaches talked about an interview
like he has a linebacker mentality. Jeremy Springer talked about
it's going to be important that kickers can cover kickoffs
now in this new rules, and this is the thing
he's willing to do that. Yeah, the one question, obviously,
can he kick in the colt? And that's not something
we can answer during training. Cam right, We're not gonna
get answer that till we get an answer, I will say.

(01:11:43):
When he was asked about it, I loved his answer
because a lot of kickers get asked about that and say, well,
kicking is kicking, Like I'm not really worried about it,
he said, I understand it's a question, and I'm looking
forward to prove people wrong because it's not the same.
Kicking today when it's seventy degrees in Sonny is not
the same as kicking the snowstorm is not the same
as kicking when it's driving rain and forty degrees with

(01:12:03):
twenty mile an hour winds. It's not And he's going
to have to learn how to do it. It's going
to be an adjustment. But and this isn't me saying
he can do it again. This is the kind of
thing where you don't know till you know. But I
do like that he's taking the approach of not saying, well,
I don't really care about it, like he clearly cares.
He clearly understands it's different. Said, He's looked up to
Adam and Terry, so he has some understanding of that.

(01:12:26):
We'll just have to see if he can do it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
Yeah, I think can they put him in like the
Rocky ice box maybe, Like I've always thought that that
was something that Bill would do eventually, is like, yeah,
just turn the act and like you do is practice
in the in the meeting. Well, the Saints did that
with their quarterbacks last year before game in Green Bay.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
Do you remember that they put it. They cleared out
they cleared out the big walk in fridge in the cafeteria. Yeah,
and they had like a walk through in the in
the freezer. Yeah, so well you need more room to
kick the ball. But maybe they're building this new facility.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
Yeah, maybe they are real like climate control.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
Right, and then they get it down to ten degrees,
get the fans blown and I'm just on a simulator.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
It's it seems like something that Bill would do, and
it kind of seems like something very able would do
because he's kind of cut from the same cloth that
they would figure out a way to get bork Oz,
Like maybe they'd send him to like someplace else, you know,
to to like get experience, like where is it winter
all the time? I don't know, Antarctic North Pole?

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
Well, so something Springer talked about when I asked him
about this, was like for him, it's about how well
the guy strikes the ball. And think about this with quarterbacks, right,
When a lot of people think about arm strength, they
think about how far you can throw the ball. And
that's one interpretation of arm strength, or that's one function
of it. Another is, you know, five yard slant. Your

(01:13:40):
arm strength still matters because are you throwing the ball,
you know, sixty miles now or fifty miles now? Like
how long is it going to take to get there?
And so what Springer had said was when he looks
at these guys, he kind of looks at how does
their foot hit the ball? Yeah, what kind of contact
do they make? So a guy who was big leg strength,
you know, leg strength can be a function of maybe
he's not hitting sixty yardfield goals, but when he hits

(01:14:03):
the ball, he makes really solid contact. It has good rotation,
It is good velocity because that's going to cut through
the wind and the rain and the snow.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
So you can kind of scout it without being in
the right It's.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Not perfect, but it's something that will help you tell
It translates and one of the reporters down in Miami
put out a tweet after Borgallis was drafted that basically,
I want to see if I can find the exact tweet,
but he basically said, like Borgallis was the second most
impressive player at Miami's pro day, obviously behind cam Ward
because it sounded like a gunshot, that that was the

(01:14:37):
cannon fire guy, yeah, or cannon fire whatever cannon fired.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
I saw that as well. I like that line.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
I'm okay. So that's something where you look at and
we talked about this with with Bryce Barrier. Yeah, when
they drafted him was when the ball hits it, and
if you go way back to Quinn Nordina, Quinn Nordean
wasn't nearly as accurate. Yeah, but this is a guy
that the ball comes off as foo's strong, so there's
not gonna be as much room for the wind to
knock it around.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
So that's Brgalis And I don't think you're gonna get
any more thorough of a kicker breakdown than that. So
you're welcome for that. One seventh round to twenty overall.
Marcus Bryant, left tackle from Missouri, started his career at SMU,
was at Missouri last year and they were so confident,

(01:15:25):
I guess is the word or so comfortable. I think
it's a better word. And Marcus Bryant that they didn't
flip Membo, and they had talks at Missouri about potentially
flipping Membo, Memb who played left tackle in high school.
They were thinking that maybe they were going to flip him.
Then they end up getting Brian in the portal from

(01:15:46):
SMU and they're like, all right, well, we have this
experience left tackle coming from a decent level of football
at SMU and good program, so we feel pretty good
and we're gonna not mess around with Membo and we're
going to keep him on the right side. So Marcus
Bryant ends up playing left tackle for Missouri last year,
last couple of years, right, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
It was just last last year. I think it was
just last year. But he Javon Foster two years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
What I like about the Bryant pick is that this
is again a bet on tools, like this is a
trade s based prospect. Is a guy that's got good measurables,
you know, six seven three three twenty uh requisite arm.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
Length beyond requisite thirty five ines.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
I think it's all. I think it's thirty four plus.
I was going to say, and a really good testing. Yeah,
good tester as Wester. So you put on Would you
tell me about his RAS score? It was high, right,
was it? I can't remember text as too many numbers.
It was good. I remember it being good like elite,

(01:16:52):
like in their elite range.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
Marcus Bryant's taught this was from you. I don't know
if you were being facetious or not. Marcus Bryant's top
RAS comparisons are Oh I remember this now, Yeah, that
was Joe Thomas and Jonathan Ogden and then you throw
any Andrew Whitworth.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
It was the three. And I'm dead serious. And this
obviously is cut his tongue in cheek, but I'm dead serious.
I pulled up his RAS card. RIS is Relative athletics score.
It's the best thing going right now to put combine
numbers into context. And when I like so much about
RIS is. First of all, it's it's weight adjusted. So
if you're a three hundred and fifty pounds tackle, it

(01:17:26):
adjusts for the fact that your three hundred fifty pounds
and somebody else might be three hundred pounds, right, which matters.
The other thing that I like about it is. It's
not just gauging the forty like it takes into account
the jumps, the agilities the forty and to get an
all encompassing number, because let's face it, it's not just about
how fast you run forty yards, right, Like, that's not

(01:17:47):
the only gauge of athleticism. So Bryan tested really well.
He measured really well, and his best comps for the
names you just named. Now, he's not going to be those.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Guys like a it was a joke, ribbing fun.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Uh, he's not gonna be those guys. Uh, but he
if you're gonna take a flyer on the seventh round
and if they were gonna double dip a tackle, I
don't know if this is truly a double dip when
you pick somebody in the seventh round, but it's two tackles.
If you're gonna technically, if you're gonna take a second tackle,
this wasn't this the type of tackle you wanted to take,
Like you took the the Will Campbell pick is the

(01:18:21):
the safe, uh well rounded, great kid, high in tangible,
high high football character uh SEC. Powerhouse tape, you know,
great tape against great players all the all the boxes
checked with Will Campbell, if you're gonna double dip that tackle.
We were talking about Charles Grant, Anthony Belton, you know

(01:18:41):
those types of guys pre draft. They waited a little
bit longer, but they got a guy with a lot
of raw talent that they can hopefully develop maybe into
a backup or a swing tackle at some point.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
So that's the big thing for me with Marcus Bryant
is is he's athletic. He's got experience on the right
and left side. We talked about this, they needed backups
and Darian Lowe maybe he can be your backup left tackle,
but he can't play on the right side. Kayden Wallace
can be your backup right tackle, but he can't play
on the left side. So if Marcus Bryant can prove
he can be a backup caliber player, it saves you
having to keep a tackle. I think ideally long term,

(01:19:14):
Like my ideal projection for him, this ideal ideal. You know,
he's a big, powerful guy. He can be proves he
can be a starting right tackle in the Patriots system
if he's gonna play long term, like that's where he's
gonna stick. Because he does have experience on both sides.
But I think, like, what would be great if he
can just be your backup tackle, and maybe they still
keep Kyden Wallace because they want to develop a long
term right tacklet with a much higher ceiling. They want

(01:19:36):
to develop a long term right tackle behind Morgan Moses,
but like if they just want to, you know, in
terms of basic depth, Marcus Bryant's the only guy on
the roster that can play both tackle spots. So if
he can prove he can be a backup caliber player,
it saves you a roster spot because now you don't
have to carry and they still might you don't have
to carry a backup right tackle and a backup left tackle.

(01:19:58):
He's gonna fill both spots.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
It was definitely something I was considering. I put together
my roster, you know, re configured the ninety man roster,
and I like to do it too deep on the
depth chart. And when I was doing the too deep
and stuff like that, I was thinking about tackle. So
right now, Campbell and Moses obviously are your starters left
and right. Uh Vederian Lowe is a left tackle. Only

(01:20:21):
we know that, you know, like you said, Cayden Wallace,
who we I agree I think Caden Wallace is worth
keeping around to develop as a long term right tackle option.
Maybe he can't start down the road. Demadri Jacobs has
played a little bit of both. But I say this
with all due respect, I don't know if Demantre Jacobs
an NFL.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
Player right, well, you just have more upside with Brian.

Speaker 2 (01:20:41):
You know, he's kind of a practice squad guy to me,
and then you have Bryant, right, So really, when you
think about it, they're going to keep Campbell, They're gonna
keep Moses. Yeah, we think they're probably gonna keep Wallace,
the third round pick in his second year, didn't really
play as a rookie. He probably is gonna stay.

Speaker 1 (01:20:58):
Well. Wallace could also move inside of guard too, like
they had kind of talked about that a little bit
last year, maybe being something that never happened because they
just need to tackle so bad and he got hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:21:05):
So you don't have to keep four, right, If they
do keep four, would it make more sense. Let's let's
say Will Campbell comes out of the gate and training
campus is an absolute stud and you're you never think
twice about it about setting and forgetting him.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
It would be nice.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
Yeah, then do they really need to keep ve Darian Lowe,
who is kind of is who he is and is
only a one position backup right over a guy like
Marcus Bryant who has some upside, has some tools and
might be a multi position.

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
Back as long as Bryant can can prove he can
be that player.

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
Yeah, yep, And go back to his RIS scores eight
point nine to six out of ten, which is an
the elite range for Bryan. Great explosiveness, vertical jump of
thirty one and a half at six seven and three
twenty which is a good number, and a four nine
seven forty yard dashub five forty yard it's insane at

(01:22:01):
six seven, So that's moving. That's moving. So when you
look at Campbell, when you look at Brian, and you
look at Jared Wilson, they got some athletes on the
offensive line, like those guys are not just you know,
it's not just the film with those guys, Like those
guys have great measurables in athletics traits as well. All right,
moving on back to you and Julian Ashby the long snapper.

(01:22:28):
I'm glad this kind of happened before the show. Joe
Cardona released yesterday. Yeah, we should mention that ten year patriot,
two times super Bowl champ, the last two or three.

Speaker 1 (01:22:41):
Three times super got here in fifteen, right, so two.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
Yeah, two time super Bowl champ, longest tenured Patriot, the
last Patriot on the roster to have won a Super
Bowl in New England.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
Last one to beat teammates with Tom Brady in New England.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
Last one to be the teammates with Tom Brady in
New England.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):
But they do have somebody who won a Super Bowl
with Tom Brady on the roster in Tampa. In Tampa,
Carlton Davis.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
Should mention Ron Burton Award winner for Community service. Just
a really I know he's a long snapper. I know
it's not the most valuable position or anything like that,
but just a really well rounded guy, like a really
well rounded patriot. Obviously a patriot as well, you know,
with military stuff, but in general, great in the community,

(01:23:25):
great on the team, team captain last year. Just a
good dude. I wish Cardona the best. I hope that
he sticked someplace else. But the reason why they cut
Joe Cardona was because they drafted a long snapper. If
you're going to draft and use a draft pick on
a long snapper, he's going to be the long snapper
most likely. So what can you tell me about Julian Ashby?

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
So he's really athletic, he had an elite another elite
RAS guy. He had a faster ten yard split in
the forty than I know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
That's the fun one.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
We were talking about this a little bit yesterday. Yeah,
because he is a little undersized, which people but this
is the way teams are using the long snapper now.
And Joe Cardona talked about this last year. If you
remember when he goes down he forces the fumble in
the opener against Cincinnati, he was talking about and said, yeah,
like I'm actually going down the field now because under
Bill that's not how they used the long snapper. The
long snapper stayed back and blocked, and it was one

(01:24:16):
of the last guys down the field. Didn't really make tackles,
didn't make plays on the football. It was more of
a protector. But there's this other philosophy where because the
long snapper, you can't line up directly over him, and
he's the one snapping the ball and getting the play started,
he kind of has a head start getting down the field,
so with some teams do now instead of finding more
blocking prototype long snappers, they find these quicker guys who

(01:24:38):
can go down the field and be the first down
there and make a play. And if you watch Julian Ashby,
he does a lot of that. Brian Hins from Pats
Polpit has some clips of this, including two against Alabama.
So this is more the kind of player that I
think Jeremy Springer wants is the guy who's going to
be an athlete snapped the ball. He's beating the gunners
down the field. At Vanderbilt, he's beating the gunners usually
like the fastest guy on the team. He's beating those

(01:25:00):
down the field to make plays on the ball. He's
a solid tackler. So I think it's it's a stylistic change.
They want a guy that can go and be a
factor in coverage and not just the guy who's gonna
snap and protect. And that's what Ashby's gonna do.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
So when you talk about being the first down the field,
the fastest way is a straight line, right, So the
guys on the outside obviously have to come in and
they also have to be blocks on the outside. So
the long snapper is uncovered and he's right up the gut.
So if you kick the ball right into the middle
of the field, which usually you don't want to do,
But if you kick it right up the middle, then

(01:25:33):
the long snapper and stands the reason would be the
first one down there.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
So the thing about that, and different people will tell
you different things on this, but yes, usually don't want
to kick it down the middle of the field if
you're trying to pin a team, right, if you're punting
from around the fifty, you're trying to pin a team.
The sideline can be a friend or a foe. It
gives you another place where the ball can go out.
But it also is like if you kick it too short,

(01:25:56):
you might not get the bounce because it's going to
roll out. So get us some more opportunities to down balls,
maybe in the middle of the field instead of cough
and cornering, which is unfortunately becoming a lost art in
the NFL.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
So this guy's a pretty good athlete for a long stow,
really good athlete. Yeah, he's eight point five to three
RAS score out of ten uh four nine?

Speaker 1 (01:26:16):
What's his so the RAS breaks some things down. What's
his size grade within that?

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
So he's uh, he's small. He's okay, size six one
two thirty one, and the two thirty one is below thresh.

Speaker 1 (01:26:27):
So he's a elite I think in all the other categories, right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Great, great, an elite lead speed great.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
So he's probably closer to a nine RS when you
don't factor in his size.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
So the big number is the one point five to
six ten yard split, Yeah, which is moving like that's
moving out of the he gets out of the the
blocks and goes Yeah, that's a really good number. That
would be a good number for like receivers, right, yeah,
So that's a really good number. One point five six,
that's a individually, that's a perfect ten out of ten score.

Speaker 1 (01:26:54):
Maybe he'll actually have a decent rating in Maden since
they don't recognize long snappers and make them tight ends.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
They still don't do that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):
They still don't do that. That's crazy, I know, and
doing the college game either. So I finally got to
do I've been waiting ten years tweet out all the
overall ratings for all the Patriots draft picks, poor Julian
ash Everybody I think was eighty five or higher except
poor Julian Ashby. I have to do a fifty six
with an asterisk because it's still tight ends. They don't
recognize them as long.

Speaker 2 (01:27:20):
A sam Well. Is that just because they don't want
to put in the work to actually evaluate the long snappers.

Speaker 1 (01:27:25):
Probably, but like you could we just broke it down,
like there's things you could put in to make it
a thing that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:27:31):
All right?

Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
They three ninety overall guys from NCA.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
By the way, it was a good draft.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Last one mister irrelevant himself, Kobe Minor, Yeah, from Memphis.
Kind of cool, mister irrelevant thing. Yeah, fun, Kobe Minor
from Memphis. I think the the thing that stands out
to me about this pick, oh, you know, besides him
being mister irrelevant, which is notable, right, is uh, we've

(01:27:57):
talked a little bit about slock Corn and maybe you know,
what's Marcus Jones's role in this defense is what's his fit?
What's his future with the Patriots? They could probably use
a little bit of depth in the slot. I mentioned
earlier that I was trying to put together my depth
chart the other day on Monday, and I didn't really

(01:28:19):
feel great about who to put behind Marcus Jones in
the slot. It's probably Isaiah Bolden is the guy I
feel the best about is like a bigger slot corner.
He's practiced a little bit some in the slot with
the Patriots the last couple of years. Kobe Minor doesn't
have great top end speed, but he's got coverage ability.
He's got zone coverage ability. He can handle those responsibilities,

(01:28:41):
and I think that a lot of people project him
to play be better off inside because of the lack
of long speed. So I do wonder if they're going
to have him come in and compete as a slot corner.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
Yeah, that certainly seems like yet also a guy that's
a good athlete. I think in somebody that they probably
have ear marked for a special team's role primarily, but yeah,
they need did slot corner depth. He's going to compete.
Jordan Paul, a guy, undrafted guy from Texas State, has
been listed a lot of places of safety, yeah, but
primarily played slot corner for the Bobcats last year. There's
gonna be an interesting competition there.

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
You see a lot of you know, scrappy physical I'm
not afraid to stick his hat in in the run game,
and when you hear those types of things, you know
nowadays Nicole leven personnel. You know, new strong sidelinebacker. Like
you think about the slot and guys like that playing
a spot a slot, especially if they don't have the
top end speed to hang as outside corners. You can

(01:29:33):
move him back inside and maybe get something out of
him a flyer. You know, we'll see what happens with him. Obviously,
last pick in the draft. You're not expecting a ton
So that's the draft class. That was good. Look at
that Look at that pace.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
That's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
That was one of our best ever. Like normally this
show takes we saw the UDF phase, but that was
a good pace. I'm proud of us. I really am
so about those u DFAs. Yeah, so the Patriots have
signed an unbelievable quite a few ud fas. Uh, what
are we up to now? Like like almost seventeen seventeen,
I was gonna say, right, we're getting to a high

(01:30:06):
number here. So I have a couple that I'm higher on.
I know you have a couple as well. I think
the ones that are the most notable, uh to me
are Efton Chishom's got to be on the list. Land
Larrison's got to be on the list. I think those
two guys are on everybody's list. Jack Connonlly from Boston
College I find interesting. And then of course the full

(01:30:30):
back Brock Lamb also c J Deprie. Oh, I can't
I'm probably the highest on CV and I just forgot
ce Ja Prie. So I would say those five are
probably the guys that I look at. Oh and uh
Elijah Ponder.

Speaker 1 (01:30:43):
Yeah, so six, we'll throw the one in on defense.
It's mostly an offensive class.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
So those six guys I look at and say probably
have the best chance to push for roster spots. Who
is your favorite? You know, we have a couple of minutes,
so you can, we can go on all six, But
who is your favorite?

Speaker 1 (01:31:01):
My personal favorite is probably Larison. I think the guy
like this feels like a lazy take. Evan, I don't know.
You tell me. Brock Lampi's the most likely to make
the team because he's on the top of the depth chart,
so like he's gonna make it because they need a
full back and he's a fullback. Beyond him, Larison's super
fun reminds me a ton of Brandon Bolden. I think

(01:31:22):
he's a physical ballcarrier. He can run between the tackles,
he can catch the football. I think he's gonna be
a stud on special teams. I think he ends up
making the team. There could be like three or four
of these guys who make the team. CJ. Dupree. We
talked about this guy a lot during the pre draft process.
Turned out they got him as a UDFA primarily blocking
tight end, but has some receiving upside you can tap into.

(01:31:44):
Really was like the late Day three Mitchell Evans who
we liked but then obviously end up going undrafted. I
think to a lot of people's surprise. So I think
he has a good chance. Chisholm, I mean just cut
and dry, Josh McDaniel, slicker receiver. I don't know how
much more we need to say there and then I
also like Connolly can play four spots. We'll give you
some depth. We talked about the importance there. Wilfrid Pinay

(01:32:08):
will be an interesting one. I also like, I kind
of just mentioned him. Is Jordan Polk from Texas State.
A ton of slot experience, some of it's at the
FCS level, but has a ton of slot experience. Plays physically.
I think he forces three or four fumbles last year.
So they need a backup slot corner, and I think
he's gonna be right there in the mix of the competition.
Can play some safety as well, and should be a

(01:32:28):
good player on special teams. So there's a little g
Scott too, Like if they want a more of receiving
tight end, I think he's certainly got'd like to keep
on the practice squad and developed for a year. There's
a lot of guys that you look at. So I'll
have my list out tomorrow on ninety eight five the
Sports of dot Com. Of like udfa's with the most
realistic path to the roster. I had ten guys that
I can see like having a realistic path to making

(01:32:50):
the team. It doesn't mean they all will. They won't.
You're not gonna have ten udfas, But like, there's ten
guys that I would not be surprised if they made
the team.

Speaker 2 (01:32:58):
So I'll go in order of guys that basically I
thought were drafted to not you know, guys that are
lower on my list. But suj Dupre, I'm shocked he
didn't get drafted. And yeah, this happens deep tight end class.
Someone's gonna fall through the CACS crack. Someone's not going
to get drafted. That's just the way it works in
deep classes. Duprie was one of those guys. For my money,

(01:33:21):
I thought dupri was one of the best inline blockers
on day three in the class. Put him right up
there with you know, Jackson Hawes and Latchie from Iowa
and like those guys. I thought he blocked really really well.
I know there's some questions about finish and sort of
power to sustain and things like that. I didn't see

(01:33:41):
that in a couple of games of his that I watched,
I thought that he finished really well. I put a
clip up on Twitter of him just kind of throwing
a guy out of the club, you know, on the sideline.
I put another one up of him comboing up on
an inline block of and him just burying the dude
into the ground and flexing on him, Like this is
the guy that can really block. If you're gonna make
the team as a third tight end, blocking and special

(01:34:02):
teams is your path, right, Like, that's the way to
do it. And I think du pre can do both
of those things. You know, play on the wing on
special teams, on the protection units and things like that,
and then also block in line on as a third
tight end. He has a little bit of juice, like
he's a four to six ish guy. In the forty
yard dash, it wasn't a terrible time, above average speed

(01:34:23):
at straight line speed. He was an afterthought in Alabama's
passing game, as you would expect with all the six nine,
all the talent they have at that school. But he
you know, they would dump them off, you know, tight
end screens, little you know, slipouts into the flats, things
like that, and let him run with the ball. And
he was pretty good with the ball in his hands.
And he's got a little bit of straight line speed

(01:34:44):
to get down the field. So you split was, yeah,
they'll have races. I thought that Dupre was going to
get drafted because of his blocking.

Speaker 1 (01:34:54):
Yeah, me too, And he's.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
A really good blocker. Efton Chisholm. I just it makes
me feel whole again that we're doing eft and Chisholm,
because this is the Riley McCarron's of Austin cars. This
is the Brax and Barrioses of Gunner O Chefsky's. Yeah,
this is uh, give me another one.

Speaker 1 (01:35:16):
I mean, you're out of him unless you want to
go to Julian Edelman.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
No, I don't want to go to Julian Edelman, but.

Speaker 1 (01:35:23):
Austin Carr, Braxton Barrios, Riley McCarran, Gunner, Gunner, Well, I
don't think Gunner was more like Gunner was a converted corner.

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
Yeah, Gunner was a little different. But there's more back
in the day. Like I was mentioning Riley McCarron and
Austin Carr and Paul yesterday on PU laughed and said,
I was thinking of different guys because there's so many guys.
But anyways, uh, not true slot, not like the Truton

(01:35:54):
Chisholm is your classic quick, not fast Patriots slot receiver.
He ran a four to seven. He has got no juice, right, like,
no straight line juice down the field, and it's not
a lot after the catch. I will give him this
after the catch though. He is really good at making
the first guy miss in a phone booth. Then he

(01:36:14):
gets caught from behind every single time. But like he'll
give you those extra like two or three yards by
just eluding that first hill.

Speaker 1 (01:36:21):
Also like, and I mean this is at the FCS level,
but he'll drag guys like he doesn't just go down. Yeah,
he's he wants the contacts there because he gets caught,
but like he'll he'll make him work to bring him down.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
Really where he shines those his route running and he's
a jitterbug like he's got he's an absolute jitterbug quickness.
He's got that ability to separate at the top of
the routes. If he's gonna there's gonna be a preseason game.
I can tell you right now where they're gonna run
hass and he's gonna be number three and he's gonna
run the juke and he's gonna win over the middle
on a linebacker and we're all gonna just be like

(01:36:54):
there he is there, it is right, Like it's gonna
be like pop the corks right like that. That's chisholm uh.
He's he was fun. I liked watching watching him at
Eastern Washington. I posted this on Twitter, like red on
red red jerseys on a red field, Like come on
Eastern Washington, Like, no, that's the red field, okay, but

(01:37:16):
you can't wear red jerseys on a redkin.

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
Have you ever seen the thing with Boise State where
the guy lies down on the on the kick that
should be it's a whole field advantage.

Speaker 2 (01:37:27):
If this organization did that, I.

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
Don't want to see colored fields in the NFL.

Speaker 2 (01:37:32):
This organization did that back in the day, there would
be a Supreme Court hearing.

Speaker 1 (01:37:38):
Of the pack the Jets can do it. There's not
smart enough to actually, I think a guy in the
NFL did do that. Lie down in an enzign.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
I know he did. He did, Yeah, he did. So
that's Efton Chishlm. Classic Josh McDaniel slot receiver, the red field.
It's so classic Josh McDaniel slot that you just know
that McDaniels was somewhere in this building when they do
UDF a is or flying and he was like, can
you just give me Chisholm Like.

Speaker 1 (01:38:02):
And you just just you said he started asking for
that for the UDFA. He's probably one f seven. They
probably to rip the phone away.

Speaker 2 (01:38:09):
Yeah, he was probably like, I'm telling you, this Eastern
Washington kid is exactly what I need. Just give me
this kid.

Speaker 1 (01:38:14):
When does he release the first workout video with Edelman?
You know Edelman is going to start going and working
out with him.

Speaker 2 (01:38:19):
I'm excited about him. I'm not gonna lie. He's going
to be a training camp guy we all know that,
Land Larison. I can see it with him a little
bit too. Again, another guy that just fits that mold
for the Patriots. Really good quickness, like he can really
elude and jump out of cuts. I wouldn't say he's
the fastest either in a straight line, like he's not
going to run through defenses or take out pursued angles

(01:38:41):
like Trevon Henderson, but he's going to be able to
jump cut out of tackles. He's gonna be able to
catch the ball a little bit out of the battlefield,
you said, Brandon Bolden. He told me I was lazy
by comping him to Rex Burkhead. I'm gonna do it anyways, right,
I think.

Speaker 1 (01:38:54):
He gets bigger than I forgot. I looked at that.
I said, Larius is like a big guy.

Speaker 2 (01:38:59):
Yeah, I didn't realize that. Yesterday on PU I I
screwed up and I called him Danny Woodhead. He's much
bigger than Danny wood He's like six foot two fifteen. Yeah,
Rex Burkhead, Rex Perkin. Yeah, there's a there's comps of
there's a comps. There's clips of him like running angle
routes and stuff like that. Out of the backfield and
paying some separation on linebackers. He's he's Rex burt Head.
You mentioned Conley, Jack Conley from Boston College. You knew

(01:39:22):
they were going to get one BC guy in here.
Jack Conley's the guy. What I like about Jack Conley
And I talked to to the guys at New England
Football Journal, you know, Kevin and yeah, Den, I was
trying to I wasn't gonna be able to pronounce his
last name, sorry. John. John's a big offensive line guy,

(01:39:43):
coaches offensive line, so he knows what he's talking about.
And we were at PC's pro day and he was like,
I think Conley, you know, is a is an interesting
like seventh round UDF A flyer. He is on it.
And the big reason why John told me that is
because of his versatility. Like if you if you're going
to back up in the NFL, you better be able
to back up multiple spots, right, Like you have to
be a four position backup like Conley. Conley played every

(01:40:06):
position at Boston College beside center. Yeah, he played in
a college game at He also played a little bit
of muscle tight end, like jumbo tight end, you know,
tackle eligible type of stuff. As the sixth offensive lineman.
So this is a guy that projects as a backup,
that can back up multiple positions. I think he's got
good power, good play strength to him. You know, he's

(01:40:26):
got a rock solid kind of anchor and thud into
contact and all that kind of stuff. He's got to
work on. He's a wastebender and he like leans over
his skis and gets off balance. I have to work
on that, but I think he can be a backup
in the league. So to prea chisholm uh Lampy With Lampy,

(01:40:47):
it's more of a of an offense stylistic thing, right,
Like that's all it is. If they're gonna go with
the full back, you know, that's the type of thing
that they're going to Uh, they're gonna want, you know,
in Lampy. You know I turned on his tape against
Notre Dame last year at Northern Iowa and they ran
lead iso right full back right through the the A

(01:41:09):
gap or the B gap up on the linebacker you know,
thwack right behind him, right. You know that play. Everybody
knows it. If you play pee wee football, it's like
a day one install from like the fifth grade on
right is lead ISO. Then right after a couple of
plays later they play actioned off of it and I
was like, I was pants off. I was like, hell yeah,

(01:41:29):
full back's back, baby. He did do a little bit
of things on the wing like you do, some wing
blocking and some inline blocking as well. So there's some
of that versatility or like H back versatility to him
as well. But if they want that traditional full back,
that's just him. The one thing I would say about
him as a receiver, I thought his ball skills were decent.
Like he made a low catch against Notre Dame where

(01:41:51):
he got yeah, where he went to the ground and
made a catch. I thought that he Know he's not
a dynamic receiver. It's not Kyle used check right, You're
not going to get that level out of him. But
I do think he can catch the ball. You know,
if he elits into the flat and he's you know,
the fifth read on the backside, and there's just nobody
covering him over here, like they'll he'll be able to
be serviceable. He'll catch the ball, he'll get upfield, he'll

(01:42:13):
get the yards he can get.

Speaker 1 (01:42:14):
He's not a true h back, but he is somebody
who can trust with ball in his hands in the
right situation. So I think it's that perfect mold between
what McDaniels wants, which is a guy that can just
get into the A gap and meet a linebacker, but
not somebody like he's all somebody the defense is going
to have to account for.

Speaker 2 (01:42:29):
Last one I wanted to bring up was Elijah Ponder
from cal Poly. I thought that Elijah Ponder had draftable talent,
draftable trade, certainly a really good tester. Again, hammer in
the testing here, nine point seven rass Orris really elite
in all categories, you know, elite speed, elite explosiveness, elite agility.

(01:42:53):
This is a guy that ran a six point nine
to nine second three cone at six two two fifty.
That's really good. Yeah, sub seven three cone at that
size is really impressive. Defensive end prospect handing the dirt
four to three end, good power, good explosiveness off the line,
can really gain ground early in his pass rush. I
think that there obviously is going to be some level

(01:43:15):
of competition, question marks and jumping competition and technique stuff,
But a guy that can really rush the passer and
really has some speed to power and some athleticism to
his game so I think he's got a chance just
on raw tools to potentially make the roster. So if
I had to guess, besides Lampy, like you said, that's
its own thing. Besides Lampy, if I had to guess,

(01:43:37):
I would say Dupree's probably got the best chance to
make the team as a third tight end.

Speaker 1 (01:43:40):
Yeah, but Larison and Chisholm are right there too. I
think that's the big that's the and Conley that's like
the group you're looking at, and then some other guys
more just for depth.

Speaker 2 (01:43:50):
If I had to put a guess on it, I
would say Dupre third tight end, blocking tight end behind
Hunter Henry and Austin Hooper. You can he beat out
Jahem Bell as more of a tradition inline blocker, whereas
Jackeen Bell is kind of this you know flex h
back moved right.

Speaker 1 (01:44:06):
But I guess it becomes tough. Are you gonna So
it comes down to me like, if they're going to
carry a move tight end and h back, you probably
aren't going to keep Lampy. Yeah, So it's Dupre or
Lampy depending on if Bell fills the full back rolling right.

Speaker 2 (01:44:19):
So it's kind of a trickle down effect of like
Belle Lampy dupre those three guys. Do they want the
traditional full back? Do they want an extra inline blocker? Yeah?
Those would be the conversations that we're gonna have all
summer long, all summer long about this team in this
fifty three man roster. Really exciting group all around. And

(01:44:40):
we have one more special treat for you, so don't
sign off just yet. Dame Broker from the Athletic is
up next. He's gonna break down. What's that? Oh? I
need to do the read. I need to do the
read first before we throw it to day. Support the
home team. Join New England's events staff here at led Stadium.
Season open visions available in food, beverage, parking and security.

(01:45:03):
Visit www dot thecraftgroup dot com, slash careers and apply today.
All right, guys, here's Dan Brugler. We are joined now
by Dame Bruger of the Athletic, the Beast himself. Dane,
thanks so much for joining us, and you're we got
a lot of fans of you here right now because
you ranked the Patriots as the number one draft class

(01:45:24):
in the NFL, so we had to have you y'all
to talk about that, but thanks so much for doing this.

Speaker 3 (01:45:30):
No, Hey, pleasures online.

Speaker 5 (01:45:31):
It was a fun draft season, fun three days. And yeah,
I'm really lated what the Patriots did. So excited to
talk about that class with you.

Speaker 2 (01:45:39):
Yeah, let's start with that right off the top. So
you published a ranking of all thirty two teams draft
classes and you had those New England Patriots up there
at number one. Why did you think the Patriots had
the best draft in the NFL.

Speaker 5 (01:45:55):
First of all, they just drafted a lot of the
players that I had ranked in my top one hundred.
I think six we're in my top one hundred. And
I think they just matched up really well with the
needs and what's going to make this team better, you know,
And like what I do, because I don't do draft grades,
I just do it one through thirty two.

Speaker 3 (01:46:13):
Here are my favorite draft classes.

Speaker 5 (01:46:14):
And really it just comes down to who do I
think made the biggest jump based off of what they.

Speaker 3 (01:46:21):
Did on draft weekend?

Speaker 5 (01:46:22):
And I think you look at the Patriots. You get
your love tackle with Will Campbell, you come back, you
get a couple of playmakers in on Day two with
Travon Henderson Kyle Williams, and then to get Jared Well
trade back and then get Jared Wilson. I just tremendous
value in my opinion. Wilson, He's going to be a
starter in this league for a long time. I compared

(01:46:43):
to him a Rodney Hudson, you know, a guy that
maybe won't make a Pro Bowl, but he's going to
be a solid starter for a lot of years. And
that's he's going to bring competition from day one. And
so that's what if you're the Patriots, that's exactly what
you want. You want to an offensive line that is
really get the five best out there based off of competition.

(01:47:05):
And so I think they did a really nice job
first two three rounds and then into Day three just
adding really good football players and at positions where they're
going to directly impact this team in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 1 (01:47:18):
And Dan kind of along those lines. And I don't
know if you factor this into your grade, just how
teams maneuver the board and work the board. But five trades.
That was a big part of the talking point coming
out of the draft. It was I believe Elliott Wolf
after the draft talked about they wanted to make sure
they were picking in spots where the players lined up
for them. Did you factor that into your evaluation, if not,
just your thoughts on how they were able to manipulate

(01:47:40):
the board to get the class that they wanted to get.

Speaker 3 (01:47:43):
Yeah, and that's that's certainly part of it.

Speaker 5 (01:47:45):
Like I said, to trade back and get Wilson the
way they did was awesome. It's it's always tough because
if you like a player.

Speaker 3 (01:47:54):
Enough, just take them.

Speaker 5 (01:47:55):
But at the same time, if they are teams calling
about possibly moving up, then you know, it's it's a
conversation about, hey, well we can pick up an extra
fourth or an extra fifth and move back ten twelve
spots and we still feel like we'll get the same guy.
Now there's risk involved obviously that the player will still
be there.

Speaker 3 (01:48:12):
But I think the Patriots and what.

Speaker 5 (01:48:14):
They did over the weekend was a good example of
it working out to their advantage and letting the board
fall to them, not forcing things, not being you know,
like was it member last year in the second round
when you know they traded back, you know, wait from
lad McConkey, and they know all the you know, noise

(01:48:34):
about that decision. Well, that didn't carry over to this
year where they were scared to move back if they
felt like that was the right move. And you know
that that's something to be said about just not manipulating
the board, but not drafting scared. You know, you are
going to trust your grades, trust all the work that
your scouts did, and you know the rest of your

(01:48:57):
front office, your coaches, and build the team with players
that you had high on your board. And they were
able to do that, and I think they were the
value because the draft's all about value. The value they
got at every level the draft was really impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
So, Daniel, you listed out your favorite pick of the
draft for each team and then your favorite kind of
Day three sleeper pick, and your favorite pick of the
draft for the Pats was Kyle Williams, who I think
we're all pretty excited about here. Not the type of
receiver that they've had here in a while, you know,
speed separation ability. But what was it about Kyle Williams
that you thought he was the best pick of the

(01:49:32):
draft for them?

Speaker 5 (01:49:34):
Yeah, and just summed it up, speed separation. Just going
back to the Senior Bowl and watching Kyle in person,
the releases off the line, his ability to separate early,
mid and late was.

Speaker 3 (01:49:48):
Just really impressive.

Speaker 5 (01:49:49):
And I go back to North Carolina when Drake May
not the twenty twenty three season, but the twenty twenty
two season, his top target was Josh Downs, and Downs
was kind of a similar guy where he just got
open consistently, a little bit of a smaller target, just
like Kyle Williams, but Downs was able to get open
and May trusted that implicitly, and that was a big

(01:50:13):
part of that North Carolina offense he was missing that
last year. And that's what I think Kyle Williams can
be for Drake May, helping him take that next step
in his development, be a high volume pass catcher, receive
a lot of targets, even as early as his rookie season.
So you know, Kyle Williams was an interesting player throughout
the process because he blew He had a great senior year,

(01:50:33):
blew up the Senior Bowl, and then had a really
good forty time four to four to zero at the combine,
but then he got hurt the hamstring, so cut the
combine short, couldn't work out of the Pro Day. But
you know, he was a really popular guy with thirty
visits and workouts as teams tried to figure him out,
and so for the Patriots to get him in the
third really liked the value there.

Speaker 1 (01:50:53):
Just along those lines, why do you think, you know,
you're so dug in this from the beginning, and a
lot of people they start looking maybe around the Senior
Bowl and I remember looking at and the consensusport is
what it is. It's a tool, it's not everything. But
he was like eight hundredth on the consensus sport going
into the Senior Bowl, and even coming out of that,
you know, was not getting that same kind of attention.
It wasn't until two three weeks ago that people really

(01:51:15):
start talking about this guy. Is it just you know,
Pack two conference playing out on the West coast late
games or why do you think this guy didn't have
as much external buzz during the process as he clearly
did with teams going as high as he went.

Speaker 5 (01:51:29):
I think that's a big part of it, just people
not paying attention to Washington State football because of you know,
just the conference realignment in Washington State Oregon State kind
of being left out in the cold. But yeah, I
mean Williams he started at UNLV three years there, transferred
to Washington State, had an okay year in twenty twenty three,
but wasn't really looked at as a draftable player. So

(01:51:52):
going back to the summer watching him, it was like, Okay,
solid player, but looks like a camp body. You know,
it looks like he has some speed, but you know,
production is just okay. And then this year as a senior,
it's like, really things started to click for him, and
so it was a little bit of a see. I mean,
I liked him going into the Senior Bowl, but the
Senior Bowl is really where it was like, Okay, this

(01:52:13):
guy's a little bit different. Jalen Nole to me, was
the best receiver I saw on mobile. Kyle Williams was
a close second. Those two. Both of them were really
dynamic the entire week and then you know, just kind
of getting better and better throughout the process. But it
was kind of out of sight, out of mind, not
seeing him during the season for most fans. And then,
like I said, he got hurt at the combine, so
we didn't see him go through a lot of those drills,

(01:52:34):
position drills, testing drills, and then he didn't have a
Pro Day, so you know, he was kind of a
little bit out of sight, out of mind, but yeah,
he was a team and then for teams too.

Speaker 3 (01:52:43):
Like it was.

Speaker 5 (01:52:44):
It was not like love at first sight. It was
something that you know, kind of grew on teams as
the process played out.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
So your your favorite to move down the board here
a little bit. Your favorite Day three pick was Brandon
Swinson from LSU, and I think all of us were
collectively pretty surprised that he made it all the way
to the fifth round. So to part question here, why
did you like Swinson? And why do you think he
fell a little bit in the draft?

Speaker 3 (01:53:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:53:11):
And really, I mean there were a couple Joshua Farmer
in the fourth I thought was you know, terrific value.
I think Craig Woodson will hear from as a rookie.
So a couple of Day three picks should play a
factor in the twenty twenty five season for the Patriots.
You know, Swinston was tough because you know, he had
he had plenty of love. I think in the media side,

(01:53:32):
teams weren't quite as high on Swinson compared to some
of the media, and I'm part of it. You know,
he was a good player at LSU, but you know,
was he going to be a full time player in
the NFL? Is he more of a sub package guy,
you know, six three and a half two hundred and
fifty five pounds. What hurt him a little bit was
choosing not to work out at the Pro Day. He'd

(01:53:55):
even weigh in, and so I've heard from several teams
that were just like not happy just that because he
didn't he did I think the short shuttle in the
three cone at the combine. Then it goes to the
Pro day and ops to just do nothing, and that
rubbed some scouts the wrong way. Now, is that the
reason he fell? I you know, I don't, I don't,
I don't know. I think he was viewed as more

(01:54:16):
of a fourth round guy for teams, so you know,
to get him in the fifth, you know, I thought
it was trific value there. But it's just I go
back to what this team needed and you look at
just adding some more pass rush jees. So even if
you know Swinston's not a full time player, He's going
to come in and be part of the rotation and
give you some of that quickness off the edge. He's

(01:54:40):
not just a super physical player in the run game,
but he gives effort, so you know, he he is
a player that you know has to mature both, you know,
on the field. Off the field, he his past year,
he butted heads with coaches a few times. You know,
he was suspended for the first quarter of the Florida
game for you know, just not eating the with the

(01:55:01):
team expected of him. So there's growing up to do
with this player. But talent is there for him to
come in and make an impact getting after the quarterback.

Speaker 1 (01:55:11):
Late in the draft, the Patriots make the two special
teams editions kicker Andres Borgalis and then Ashby the long snapper.
Anytime the Patriots take a special teamer, especially after the
way went Chad Rownd a couple of years ago, it's like, well,
did they need to invest draft capital here? What are
your thoughts on those two guys in Are they players
that you think if the Patriots wanted they had to

(01:55:31):
take them where they did?

Speaker 3 (01:55:34):
Well?

Speaker 5 (01:55:35):
You know, I think when you were talking, especially with
Ashby in the seventh round, it's okay, do we really
want to get into a bidding war to make sure
we get him a free agency or you know, a
team like the Patriots that had so many picks, we
can just use a seventh rounder on him.

Speaker 3 (01:55:47):
And you know, Ashby is one.

Speaker 5 (01:55:48):
Of what five guys long snappers that you know were
part of that combine that they had with the specialists.
A little undersize and thirty one pounds, but I think
that you know, you're thinking about adding weight and you
look at the athlete and just the consistency that he

(01:56:09):
brought that those were kind of the athleticism, consistency, those
are two words that came up when you know, just
talking about Ashby. And then you know with the kicker,
you know, bory Gollis was my rate, my top ranked
kicker this year. Thought he could go anywhere between the
fifth and seventh rounds.

Speaker 3 (01:56:25):
So where the Patriots got him?

Speaker 5 (01:56:27):
You know, it's always you know, some some teams look
at it and say, we'll never draft a kicker. Other
teams look at it and say, you know, if we
like the player.

Speaker 3 (01:56:35):
Enough, we'll go that route.

Speaker 5 (01:56:37):
And I think with bor Gollis, he did enough during
his college career, he did enough during the pro day
during the workouts that said, hey, I'm a starter at
the next level. And so you know, I I'm not
going to push back and say like they made the
wrong move or anything. Time will play out, but I
certainly understand why they went that direction, all.

Speaker 2 (01:56:56):
Right, Dan, last one for you. The Patriots have got
a pretty good history of undrafted rookies making the roster
making an impact. What are some of the guys that
stood out to you out of their class there?

Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:57:08):
CJ. Duprieze one guy that I had actually watched before
the draft and thought maybe he'd get drafted at tight end.
But is there anyone out of that group that you like?

Speaker 5 (01:57:19):
Yeah, I mean, Chisholm was my top ranked non combine
receiver this year.

Speaker 3 (01:57:26):
Him running in.

Speaker 5 (01:57:26):
The four sevens at the Pro Day really kind of
probably eliminated any chances of getting drafted. But he's not
a long speed guy. He is a short area quickness
type of player. He I mean, the production he put
up at Eastern Washington was outstanding, and then he goes
to the East West Shrine game and was fantastic. That

(01:57:48):
short area quickness out of the slot helps him get open,
give his quarterback a target. And so I'm eager to
see what he can do in training camp and see
if he can possibly earn a role with you on CG.

Speaker 3 (01:58:00):
Dupree He to me he was.

Speaker 5 (01:58:02):
The better of the two Alabama tight ends oots actually
got drafted by the Seahawks in the fifth round. I
believe Dupre I thought was the better of the two.
He's the better pass catcher.

Speaker 3 (01:58:13):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:58:14):
He's a really well built kid, six y five, two
hundred and fifty six pounds.

Speaker 3 (01:58:18):
He was one of the best.

Speaker 5 (01:58:20):
His dad's really big into weightlifting, and so so was
he and so he I think it was like thirty
two reps on the bench that really stood out. He
wasn't a high volume target in that Alabama offense. He
only had twenty one catches this past year, but I
think you have a good size, speed athlete. When he
was targeted, he caught the ball, and I think he

(01:58:41):
was good enough as a blocker that you thought, all right,
if I want a true wide tight end, prototypical hand
in the ground, inline guy, this guy could potentially be that.
So a little surprised he didn't get drafted, because I
think he has the what a lot of teams are
looking for as a blocker and receiver to earn a
roster spot.

Speaker 2 (01:59:01):
Yeah. Absolutely, I was surprised too. So that's why we
had you on Dan, because we went a whole interview
did not mention Will Campbell's name once because we wanted
to talk to you about the deep the deep cuts,
as we do on this show. You had all two
hundred and fifty six guys in the Beast again this year,
right fifty seven, Yeah, to fifty seven. I short turned

(01:59:21):
to you one guy there, but it must.

Speaker 5 (01:59:23):
Have gotten It was close there that final pick by
the Patriots. I was, you know, you never know, it
could be someone that I overlooked, but it was my
one hundred and twenty seventh corner with Kobe Minors, so
it wasn't someone that I had ranked highly. But you know,
I hope he ends up making the roster and has
a good career.

Speaker 3 (01:59:41):
But I'm just happy you was in the Beast.

Speaker 5 (01:59:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:59:44):
Absolutely, So you can read Dan at the Athletic of course,
and the Beast. The Athletic subscription is worth it just
for the Beast alone every single year, So make sure
to give Dan a follow and give him a subscription
as well. That's going to do it for today's episode
of Patriots Catch twenty two, and I will be back
next week. Very special thank you to our very special
guest Dame Brugler, and we'll see you guys next week.

(02:00:06):
Thanks for watching.

Speaker 1 (02:00:10):
Hey, this is Fred thanks for tuning into the show.

Speaker 4 (02:00:12):
If you really want to help us, make sure that
you like us wherever you get your podcasts, like Apple
Podcasts or Spotify, and also make sure you follow us
on the New England Patriots YouTube page to see this
show and everything else that we do here What the Patriots.

Speaker 2 (02:00:28):
Thanks a lot,

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