Patriots Catch-22 8/7: Joint Practice Observations, Camp Competition, Preseason Preview

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan
Lazar and Alex bar and Lazarre Hell, everybody nailed it.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Joined as always buy our bar gas. Here is Evan
Lazar and Alex Bars. Now you can play action. Now
you can boot, you can move the pocket off of
that that that's how you can protect the quarterback. And
not only are you protecting the quarterback, but you're protecting
the pass protection as well because you're doing these things
schematically that give the defense pause and force the defense

(00:36):
to respect the run and respect the actions in the backfield.
So let me just get the stray all of these things.
It's not where I want to be like, it's not
like the end goal. It's not the end.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
But you're acknowledging the run can set up the past.
That whole argument we had this or about saying being
tough on the line of scrimmage and pushing the defense
around initially can benefit you later in the game.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
I am acknowledging that run actions mean more than just
running the footballs. How did you like that?

Speaker 3 (01:02):
For?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Weaseling out of saying that running the football sets up
play action? That was that was pro by me? There,
You just admitted it. No I saw you did? You
just admitted I said, except what I said.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hello, You said that was establishing the run works?

Speaker 2 (01:19):
No I didn't. I said that run actions are sell
to the defense.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
That's just establishing the run with that's more worthy.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's not about but it's not about volume of running.
It's just about showing.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Nobody ever say establishing the run was a volume thing.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
How else would you establish the run.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
You have to feed the round, running the football well.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Or running running it early. Established the run at a
high volume.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, okay, so that the number is not zero. It
doesn't mean run it ten times in a row.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Okay, I don't know. I feel like that's established.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
I've never viewed established the run as a volume thing.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
All right, that's a that's a good semantic.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
There are times where I would campaign for volume running
of the I usually say that running the hell out
of the ball or running the damn ball. But when
I say establishing the run, I mean running it well,
not running it. If you run the ball ten times
in a row and all ten runs go nowhere, you
didn't establish the run.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
You just ran the ball into a brick wall, right,
which is what the nerds say, is the issue with
the conversation is like you are just purposely three yards
in a cloud of dusting it because you just want
to establish the run.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
To me, if you know, if your first run gets
stuffed and you'd never try it again, that's stupid too.
Like there's you got to realize when you know when
you got to kind of make an adjustment. But like,
to me, establishing the run means, say you run it
like five times on your first drive, right, three of
them go for five plus, one of them goes for

(02:46):
ten plus. Now in the defense has said, oh crap,
they can run on us. We got to stack the box,
or we can't send as many guys on the blitz,
or we can't put as many guys back in coverage
because they're just going to run on us all damn
day if we keep doing what we're doing. They've already
ripped off good ones here in five plays like that.
To me, once you've established that mental sided, that's what
establishing the run is to make. It's making the defense

(03:07):
change the way they approach it. If you run ten
times in a row, the defense stops all of it
and changes nothing. You didn't establish the run, you tried to,
but you didn't.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
So quick story and then well, I promise we'll get
to the real part of the show that was not
This a fun but quick story. So I just humble
Bragg just bumped into the mccordy Twins on my way
in this morning into the stadium because they are going
to be broadcasting the game along with your friend Scott
Zolac on w BZ. I think right Local, CBS Local.

(03:37):
I feel like you should not the preseason game, the
preseason opener between the Patriots and the Commanders here at
Gillette Stadium at seven thirty pm Eastern time tomorrow. I
should also say tomorrow, I mean Friday, if you're listening
to this on the on the on demand. And I
should also mention the Tom Brady statue going in tomorrow

(03:57):
Friday before the game. And I believe six is the
kickoff six o'clock in the plaza, so that will be
exciting as well. If you have tickets to the game.
I think this is an important thing to say. If
you have tickets to the game, you're actually gonna be
able to watch the Brady statue ceremony on the scoreboard
and on the on the video boards so you don't

(04:19):
have to necessarily be in the plaza for that. You
can watch it as well in the stadium if you
have a ticket to the preseason game. Enough plugs now
did the company thing. But I saw the mccordey twins
and it made me think of this story. Devin said
this story at some point, I don't know when that
to this play action thing that Vince will Fork used

(04:41):
to tell him before games. Don't be coming up here,
he would tell Devon. He'd say, don't worry about the run,
like I got the run, like you go worry about
you know what's going on behind me? Right, Like, don't
be coming up here. And he said that Vince Wilfork
anytime the safeties would like bite on play action and

(05:06):
start screaming upfield to try to stop the run and
they give up a play because of that, Vince Wilfork
would just be irate, like he would just get on
their butts for it. He would just be like, do
not come up here, like do you know who I am?

Speaker 4 (05:20):
Right?

Speaker 2 (05:20):
And Vince Wilfork, I will stop the run. You worry
about the receivers not getting behind you. So that's that's
the whole thing, right, Like that's the whole.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
That's point is like, if the other team doesn't, if
the safety is don't have to keep come screaming up,
does the defensive line taking care of the run? You
didn't really establish the run?

Speaker 2 (05:39):
All right? So let's talk about practice. And I wanted
to segue into that by saying, let's talk about practice,
because I do think it's worth saying. There's a lot
of positive reviews about what the Patriots did yesterday against
the Washington Commanders and joint practice, and I don't want
to take away from that. I don't want to rain
on parades. I don't want to do anything like that.

(06:00):
But we are talking about practice, so I want to
keep that in perspective. They haven't they're not going to
the super Bowl just yet. Right, We're stacking, We're stacking days.
With that being said, with that caveat aside, it was
a really positive day for the Patriots yesterday. I thought
on both sides of the ball, they competed. I thought
offensively for about ninety five percent of the practice they

(06:22):
had the upper hand on the Commander's defense. Then obviously
the pick at the end, which I hate that I
have to put that in there. The yeah, but of it.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
All, did you hear me try to explain it on
Felgrin Maz yesterday. No, but I called it a competitive
interception and got yelled at.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Oh good, good, good way to put it. Competitive interception.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
It wasn't in the sense like it wasn't a spray.
It wasn't like, what the hell is he thinking? Kind
of read he tested a window in a Hall of
Fame linebacker jumped into it. Yeah, that's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
So the most positive point, and I want to go
big picture like we always do, and we're going to
go small, go into the details, into the weeds, and
I have notes, you know, facilitate notes of how like
we're going to hit every position. I promise we're going
to get into the minutia here. But the big picture
thought that I had taking away from this was that

(07:11):
I really thought I saw offensively, and I will admit
that I watch more of the offense and the defense.
Oh good, that'll be a good show. The offensively. I
felt like I was seeing a lot of teach tape
of the Josh McDaniels offense, like when they ran a

(07:31):
play like this is how the script and this is
how it's supposed to look when we put the play
up on the video board or on the whiteboard in
the meeting room, and we say like, this receiver is
going to run here, and that receiver is going to
run there, and we're going to get the ball out here,
and we're going to read it like this. Like I
saw a lot of plays where the initial look that
Drake may saw, the initial picture, the initial read was opened.

(07:55):
The ball is out on time, it was on the
receivers accurately. The receivers were then transitioning and taking the
ball and making some plays with it and yards after
the catch, especially the tight ends and pop douglas. I thought,
we're just hitting on time in rhythm throws throughout the practice,
and that was highly encouraging. We saw some play action

(08:16):
mix in there, some McDaniel's classic pull the guard, you know,
play action type plays, pop passes. We saw the little
quick hitters over the middle of the field from the
Mario Douglas just right out of the McDaniels playbook of
the slot receiver. You know, first down, we're going to
be where balls out first down, we're moving the chains

(08:37):
right where we're ahead of schedule or we're on schedule now,
all of that kind of thing. That was probably the
most encouraging part because I've seen joint practices and years past.
I know we always talk about the Eagles joint practice,
but I want to stay away from that practice for
a second, because that was just I'm gonna be blunt.
That was just a train wreck, right, That was just

(08:59):
an app that.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
Was a historically good front against a historically bad line.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
Right.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
I'm more talking about joint practices two years ago with
the Green Bay Packers, or I want to say it
was three years ago with the Las Vegas Raiders, like
practices that were more competitive than the one last year
that we saw against Philadelphia. Those practices it was like
blips here and there where, Like Devonte Parker. I think

(09:25):
in the Green Bay practice, they did like the forty
five second thing that they did at the end of
practice yesterday, and DeVante Parker got behind the defense and
they hit one right, and it was like, okay, great,
but the other you know, ten throws in the string
work great, right, But they ended it on a high
note with that same thing with Vegas. They had one

(09:46):
forty five second one minute drill that went really, really well,
at the end of one of those practices in Las Vegas.
But this practice was like consistent. This looks like a
Patriot offense. Just looks in rhythm. This looks on time.
The line is holding up, Drake May is making the
right reads, he's making the right throws, the ball is accurate,

(10:07):
it's out on time, it's on the receiver, and we're going.
And that I have not seen in a Patriot joint
practice in quite some time, probably since Brady was here. Honestly,
all right.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
So me and Reese both said that Re said on
the lack of Chean and I said it on Felgrim
Mez that this felt like maybe their most complete offensive
practice since Brady, and I know when re said it,
he said he was worried about getting caught up in
the moment. I was, as well, you go back to
I think somebody tweeted at me like jokingly when I
like late in practice and I was like, hey, this
is going great, was like, oh, so is this the
mac Jones Giants practice. That's a good I mean that

(10:40):
one's up there. Obviously it didn't mount too much, but
that one's up there, yep.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
I forgot about that one.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
That's but no, it's I mean, right in look one
practice best practice, since Brady kind of sounds tungue in cheek,
but like you're against a team that was in the
NFC Championship last year, and the Patriots from what I
saw from the defense too, And I had Matt's off
watching the defense, and he knows what he's watching. So
we conferred notes and we both agreed that on both
sides of the ball, the Patriots looked like the better team. Now,

(11:05):
the Commanders were down a few more starters than the
Patriots were, so maybe that was it. But you came
away from that feeling good. You came away from that
feeling like the Patriots belonged. It's been a minute since
they've had one of the joint practice was practices, like
you said, where it was like, yeah, that was a
healthy back and forth.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, that's exactly how I would describe that as well.
And you know, I was just really encouraged by it
did not look like any element of the offense was
so catastrophic that they couldn't run the offense, right, Like,
it didn't look like the line was getting whooped so
they couldn't run the offense or the quarterback just was
in over his head, so they couldn't run the offense.

(11:43):
So the receivers weren't getting separation down the field, so
they couldn't run the offense. They had all three of
those things were good enough to compete in a game
or in a practice, excuse me, against a team that
was in the NFC Championship game a year ago. Now.
We talked a little bit about this on Patriots on filter,
like maybe the Commanders overachieved a little bit last year.

(12:04):
There's some of that going on as well, but still
they are a playoff team. They are a playoff caliber opponent,
and the Patriots held their own and maybe even won
the practice, if you want to do that sort of thing.
So that's my big picture thought, my overall takeaway. Did
you have anything else to add or were you kind
of in the same.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
I just think with Drake, so you mentioned there, like
the offense as a whole was operational. There were a
couple of minor things. There were some few more drops
and I'd like to see and there were times I
felt like the offensive line more the right than the
left side. But there were times I felt like the
offensive line wasn't great Drake may made it work. When
the offensive line got beat. There probably were a couple

(12:41):
of plays that could have been sacks, and whether it
was him and not in the sense of like it
would have been a sack in a game, sacks like
we're not even going to count to the sack, because
whether it was Drake getting the ball out of his
hand quickly or moving in the pocket, it felt like
he was able to adapt when the line was getting beat,
which again wasn't to this worrying extent, but it happened.
And I think as we talk about Drake going in
a year two and can he be that guy that

(13:03):
you think of when you think of a top three
draft pick elevating the talent around you? How many how
much have we talked about that in relation to the
quarterback position here in New England, going back to the
mac Jones ra right, elevating the talent around you. And
there's going to be times and we can get to
the offensive line depth because the starters I thought were fine.
They weren't amazing, they were fine, they were solid. The

(13:23):
backup tackles worry me. And it's the NFL. There's gonna
be injuries, right, so there might be times when Drake
May is going to have to elevate the offense, and
I thought he elevated it yesterday, especially when it comes
to the line and preventing pressures. At times. He was
his own best pass protector yesterday.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
So I want to go throw for throw at Drake
in a second. Yeah, I want to say one last thing.
I think that there's when they hired Mike Rabel back
in January, there was this hope that at the bare minimum,
Mike Rabel was going to bring them back to the level, right,
he was going to bring them back to a competent
level of football that their offense especially just has not

(14:00):
looked like the last two or three years, Like, can
we get back to the sixteenth best offense in the league?

Speaker 4 (14:06):
Right?

Speaker 2 (14:07):
And yesterday I felt like we were there. I felt
like they were back to being at least a middle
of the road NFL worthy, NFL caliber offense. Now to
your point, to go from sixteenth to top ten to
top five or whatever it ends up falling, that sort
of becomes a question more about the quarterback. In my opinion,

(14:30):
at least this year, I think the coaching has gotten
them to a point of competency. I think that's what
coaching does. It sets the floor of your team. Now,
the talent on the roster is the question of can
they get above just middle right? Can they go from
middling to really good? And that I think will come
down to the quarterback. The things that I saw from Drake,

(14:53):
I'll just want to like go through a couple of
the throws, because I thought some of the throws that
he made yesterday were really just what's the word just excellent? Yeah,
just high end place like really good. We would call them,
in pro football focused parlance, big time throws dimes, right,

(15:14):
that's what we were what we would call it. The
first one that stood out to me was and I
wish we had video of it to show you guys,
but unfortunately I don't. I don't have that kind of poll.
I can't. But he to your point earlier about like
avoiding pressure, there was some pressure coming off the right side,
off the right tackle, and he had two hands on

(15:35):
the ball and he almost like you know when basketball
players like swing through right, he like swung the ball
through like dodge the pressure, then slid up in the
pocket and then three quarters you know, throw like arm
angle and dropped an off platform like all in one
motion type of throw at a three quarters angle on

(15:56):
a crossing route to Pop Douglas. That was just hip
hop Douglas right in the chest, and I was just like,
all right, you know that that's a good sign. This
is early on in the practice. Then he on the
next string of plays, he looked off the coverage and
he kind of like pumped into the flat. I think
it was might have been Trevon Henderson that was releasing

(16:17):
in the flat, and they kind of had like a
little bit of like a look like it could have
been like a bubble or a screen into the flat,
and he pumped the flat and the whole Washington defense
went with the pump fake and then he came back
to the middle of the field and I think he
kind of no looked it to Austin Hooper over the
middle of the field, and there was nobody within ten
yards of Austin Hooper because of Drake, because of the

(16:39):
coverage manipulation that he was doing. And when I saw
those two throws from Drake, specifically the pocket movement and
the off platform to Pop and then the throw with
the manipulation to Hooper like that to me is when
Drake is feeling it, like you can kind of tell
there's a there's a swagger and like a playmaking ability
to it that comes out where you can hell when

(17:00):
he's sort of in that zone a little bit with
what he's doing and he starts to do some of
these like minutia quarterback stuff. That's not just how I'm
sitting here throwing the football. I'm moving the pocket, I'm pumped,
faking off coverage, and I'm throwing the ball you know
where they're not. You know, I'm reading the field quickly
and seeing things happen quickly. And then the throw that

(17:21):
really I thought cemented the day for Drake May was
actually a drop by Travon Henderson on a wheel route
where Drake May dropped it right in the basket, but
he actually made a throw just to be you know,
not pick on Travon. He actually made a throw to
Matt Collins as well that was right in the cover
two hole, right in between the underneath corner and the
safety over the top, like right in that honey hole

(17:44):
along the sideline. And he made these like three or
four rows in this band of maybe like six or
seven passes. Yeah, and I was just like, all right,
like this is he is he's dealing like, this is
Drake May at his finest. That is that is me
giving him his flowers. I want to get your taken
and I want to talk about the pick, but let's

(18:04):
give him his flowers first, because for the ninety five
percent of the practice I thought he was announced. No.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Like I said, I think the team as a whole
was good. And we can get into some of the
other individuals. I'm sure we will, but I think they
were as good as they were because of Drake May.
I think he elevated things more so the line than
the receivers. The receivers did not help him out. Henderson
had two drops, one of those was in sevens. Mac
Hollins had a couple drops as well, but he elevated
the group. He elevated the group doing some of the

(18:31):
stuff you talked about and some of the stuff I
talked about. And that's what the year two jump is, right, Like, Okay,
last year he looked good in a bubble, didn't really
amount to anything, but you saw a lot to like individually.
Now it's about okay, can those individual traits actually translate
to wins? And that means just making plays even if
there's plays not there to be made, and not that

(18:52):
there weren't plays to be made yesterday. But again, I
think you throw, you throw Josh Dobbs out there, and
no offense at Josh Dobbs. It's just like average quarterback,
right replacement quarterback, you throw Josh Dobbs out there. I
don't think we're gushing over the offense the way we are.
I don't. I think, like the one to Austin Hooper
that's not open without Drake, like that was created by
Drake make.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, I agree, And I just thought, you know, he
looked really good and that that portion of practice really
for the vast majority, or even just little things like
throwing with anticipation, like the back shoulder throw at kash
On Booty. We actually do have video of it on
our Patriots socials, and that balls out like, well before
Booty he's.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Still the route. Yeah, he's still very much in the
in the early stages of the round.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
So when a quarterback is trusting it and he's seeing
the field well and he's processing at the right speed,
you see a lot of anticipatory throws, a lot of
throws that are thrown before the receiver starts to break
or before this receiver gets his eyes back to the quarterback,
and that's when the offenses are at their most dangerous
because you know that's the one they're the hardest to defend.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, if you will, there's He's made quite a throw
of the few of those timing sort of placement chemistry
throws this summer. A bunch of Diggs, He's had a
couple of Booty. It's obviously his timing's more advanced with
some receivers than others, which is not necessarily surprising, right,
He's been working with some of these guys a little
bit longer than Diggs is just a dude. But like,
I've been impressed where his chemistry is at with some

(20:19):
of these main receivers at this stage. And that that
Booty one you're talking about is a great example of
like that's not something you meet somebody for the first time,
you go out and you throw that, right, that is
something that that's a throw you make because you and
that one specific player, like two of them. It's not
like him and any receiver drilling that. Him and Booty
have drilled that over and over and over, so you know,

(20:40):
he trusts Booty to be at the right place at
the right time. Booty knows when and where the ball
is going to be without having to look for it.
Like that's that's what you want to see. That's how
you develop an offense.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
So there are his flowers. That was his bouquet of
roses at the feet for what he did yesterday, the
interception at the end. I do want to break it
down and talk about it. I think the biggest thing
that I and I'm not in Drake May's head. This
is just my read on it and based off of
what he said after practice, I feel pretty good that

(21:10):
this is basically what happened and you know, can talk
about it like this. I think sometimes when he gets
down there by the goal line, he gets a little
bit uh excited, over zealous, right like so when he
saw you know, Pop Douglas is working in the slot,
and I want to get to Pop later in the show,

(21:31):
where I thought was also a clear standout.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yesterday, best player on the field.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yes, So Pop Douglas gets open right off the line
on a slant and he's open like he's going to
walk into the end zone, and all Drake May has
to do is put the ball on him. And I
feel like Drake just got a little bit like, oh
he's open, you know, like he just gets a little excited,
and he didn't see out of the corner of his
eye that Bobby Wagner was reading Drake's eyes. So all

(21:58):
Drake may did was he caught the football, went right
to Pop Douglas, and he just brought Bobby Wagner right
to the passing lane. He brought him right to the party.
And he said after practice that he needs to look
Bobby Wagner off or maybe start left and then come
back right, but just have some sort of eye manipulation
involved in the process there to make sure that Bobby

(22:20):
Wagner doesn't get there. Instead, what he said he tried
to do is just throw it as hard as he
could and basically throw it through Bobby Wagner. And when
you play a really good player like like Wagner, you
called him a future Hall of Famer. I think that's valid.
I think that's that's fair debate. Probably not, but yeah,
so Bobby Wagner just made a really good play on

(22:42):
the football. With that being said, I think there is
a conversation that certainly we bring up a lot on
PU Andduce is the ringleader of this of just finishing
and clutching late and having that ability to put the
team over the top in those moments. And it's now
it's practice. So I'm not gonna sit here and say

(23:03):
it's the same as him failing to do that in
the game. But we saw this last year and I
looked it up real quick because I was just curious.
No game winning drives or fourth quarter comebacks for Drake
May last year. Jamean Daniels had four of them. I
mean five, Well they say four. I don't know. I
go buy Pro Football Reference. I don't know if it's

(23:23):
four or five. Fine, four is what they have. Jamie
Daniels had four of them. Drake May had zero at
North Carolina. I feel like this was a similar conversation
that they were having about Drake May where he looks
like an All American or he looks like a franchise quarterback.

(23:44):
Now at this level, from the eye test, you see it.
You see the tools, you see the ability, you see
the throwing ability in the in the shot making like
you see, it's all right there for you to watch.
But then when it comes down to it. You're in
the fourth quarter and you look at the scoreboard and
somehow his team is losing, right, And I feel like
that happened quite a bit at North Carolina, especially the

(24:06):
second year as a starter at North Carolina quite a bit.
So you just hope, and I'm not saying that it
necessarily is a pattern just yet in the NFL, because
I think last year it's fair to hold it against
him completely that they were in those positions. But you
just hope that that's not gonna become a pattern at
this level. And that's sort of the story, right, is

(24:26):
that this looks the part looks great in shorts franchise quarterback,
all the bells and whistles, but when it comes down
to clutching late situations, they just don't get over the hump.
And now I'm not saying that means they're gonna win
four games. Maybe that means that they only win like
eight or ninezer instead of ten to eleven.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Playoff team look to get to get the playoffs, they're
gonna to steal some games. Yeah, that usually means winning late. No,
You're absolutely right, and we saw it in the end stadium,
and he's got to be better late in those games. Now,
being better in general will help with that. I think
it's really starting and finishing. Like he's good in the middle.
He's just got and if he starts better, you'll have
less of these like late game situations. But that is

(25:08):
like the next step for him.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, I feel like it is. And I mean you
knew his North Carolina career probably better than me, Like
did you feel like that was the narrative about him
at North Carolina too, because I remember in the draft
that's talking about this a little bit.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
The second year more so, but also that program was
that's kind of always been North Carolina, like even before
Drake May And some programs are just you look at
them at like Nebraska's another one. You look at Nebraska.
If Nebraska's in a close game late, I don't care
who's the quarterback, They're going to lose. That's just what
they do. I think they had like eight one score
losses last a couple of years ago something like that.

(25:45):
I don't remember. They had some absurd stat about close losses.
But like, North Carolina's just always sort of been one
of those teams that you don't love in a close game,
and that predates Drake May so hopefully kind of here
that's off of him now. And also we'll see what
Bill can do about that down there, because that's something
we know Bill's not going to stand for. Just kind
of on a tangent. But yeah, I guess that was

(26:07):
a thing during his college career. But I and maybe
this is just a college football fan and me I
looked at it more of like that's North Carolina, that's
what they do.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
I do wonder if that's something that you can coach,
Like is that something Rabel can realistically because Rabel was
a clutch player, and Rabel was a winning player. He's
been a successful head coach with the tight Ends where
they won a lot of these types of games that
they probably shouldn't have won at times with Tennessee. Like

(26:34):
can you instill that in a player? Not saying that
it's not in there? Maybe it's more like like like
Rabel just needs to kind of get it out of
him more, you know, extent, Like you can't create that
in somebody, like you're not just gonna turn him into
Tom Brady, right, But.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
I do think there are ways to kind of drill
it into him. And I think there's waste to coach
around it too, which ideally you don't want to do
with the quarterback position, but I think you can. There's
been some quarterbacks who I'm trying to think of an
example off the top of my head, who are like
not super clutch in college, and.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
I don't think that that was really the narrative on Mahomes,
Like I don't Mahomes at Texas Tech last.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Homes was just like Mahomes wasn't like great at Texas Tech.
He was.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
He was good, but he wasn't right, but he had
he had good production at Texas Tech because of that
offense in the style of.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
You to talk about like good production without winning. He
was definitely one of those guys.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
I think that if you are a Patriots fan and
you want to Now I'm not say Mahomes has what
three super bowls, Like I'm not saying that Drake May
is gonna win three super Bowls, But if you're a
Patriots fan and you're hoping that that doesn't translate, that's
one thing that that doesn't translate from college to the
pros for Drake May. The active quarterback that I can
think of that that was like that in college and

(27:53):
overcame it in the pros is Mahomes.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
I'll give you another one, or it works in the reverse.
Justin Fields is actually seen as a pretty clutch college quarterback.
And I mean, I don't know how many close games
he's in because he just hasn't been good, but I
don't right like, he hasn't necessarily been in that spot.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
So all right, moving on, not a pretty impressive practice,
I would say from Josh Dobbs, like, I just want
to throw that out there, not that not that it
matters that bit much in the grand scheme of things,
but I just wanted to say that for the credit.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Where credits do we do that?

Speaker 2 (28:26):
We talk about the whole roster, right you always get
on me about talking about the whole team.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
That's fair.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
I'm covering the whole day once. But I thought that
he had a nice practice himself. I got maybe the
best throw that actually was completed was the slot fade
to Matt Collins at the end of practice, Like that
was probably the best best completion of the practice for
either team that I saw, and it was a throw
by Josh Dobbs, so credit to him. I want to
talk about the offensive line. I was going to go

(28:52):
receiver first, but I'm an offensive line guy, so we're
going to go on offensive line first. I was really
felt really good at coming out of the practice about
the way that the starting five looked. Now it wasn't
the full starting five. Morgan Moses continues to be a
limited participant, as he has been pretty much all summer.

(29:15):
I am I still am small sea concerned about that,
but I understand like it's a plan, there's a there's
a plan in mind, and Rabel has a plan for
the Morgan Moses and it's year twelve and he's thirty four,
and they're just trying to keep them healthy. It's I
think Carlton Davis is in a similar boat. And when
Week one rolls around against the Raiders, then Morgan Moses

(29:35):
is going to be out there and right tackle. That's
That's what I'm yeah, uh, that's what I'm holding out
hope for. But really the focus yesterday was on the
left side of the line.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Let's see this though on Moses, Like, I'm not concerned
injury wise. It's not like, oh, there's some secret injury
they're hiding, and even if there is, he's generally played
through injuries. In his career. Are you worried at all
about you know, the five sets of eyes right see
through the same set of that thing, the chemistry with
the rest of the line. When when does he miss
too much time that you because I mean they still

(30:06):
have three preseason games and a bunch of practices left,
But like, when do you start to worry he could
be building chemistry with Drake in the line and he's
missing that opportunity or are you there yet?

Speaker 2 (30:15):
I'm not there yet because I think the one advantage
is like if it's a tackle, like they're more out
on islands, then let's say the interior. I think it's
it's more important in terms of seeing it through the
same set of eyes with the three guys on the interior,
because that's they're gonna see the stunts, the picks, the
actions up front that defenses use to get guys free,

(30:36):
Like a lot of that stuff happens in between the
guards and not as much of it happens like when
you're out a tackle, it's kind of just the guys
out in front of you and you're just kind of
dancing with the edge rusher. When you have guys coming
through the a gaps that are blitzing, when you have stunts,
when you have twists like those things, the games like
that stuff all usually happens on the interior. So from

(31:00):
that aspect, like, if it has to be anybody that's
in and out of practice, I'd rather be a tackle
than the guard, if that makes sense. With Moses, my
concern more with him is that it's been better when
he's practiced in full. It's been better of late, So
I'm hoping that this is just a slow build in
every aspect. But out of the shoot, I didn't think

(31:20):
he looked great in team when he was out there.
I thought he looked a little slow. But maybe that
was him just kind of easing into it and getting
his timing back and his rhythm back, because it's rhythmic
position tackle. You know, you gotta you gotta get your
feet right, you gotta get your cadence correct, you gotta
come out of the stance at the right time and
time up the snap count and like all that stuff.

(31:42):
So maybe it's that is a slow burn in all
fronts with Morgan Moses, which to your point, is not ideal.
It's not ideal from from that stampo.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Christ, Yeah, when I say, because I'm with you, I'm
like little concerned about Morgan Moses. When I say I'm concerned,
it's not like, oh my god, he's hurt, Like he's
already hurt in the thirty four year old. He's banged
up and he can't handle it. I'm not worried with doubt.
I think when the time comes to be out there,
he'll be out there. It's about him being on the
same page as everybody and being ready. It's just about him,
you know, getting ready for it. That there's a tipping

(32:13):
point with rest days, and look, to be fair, they've
given Carlton Davis a ton of rest days. I don't
think in terms of a how do I phrase this
because I don't want to minimize Carlton Davis is doing
because it shouldn't be like Carlton Davis's assignment is week
to we study this receiver, learn him, learn what he does,
cover him. I don't know how much of that he's
doing it practice. I don't know how deep Carlton Davis's
assignments are in the playbook compared to maybe what Morgan

(32:35):
Moses is doing. Right. Yeah, so Carlton Davis, I don't
think like it hurts him as much missing practice time.
Does that make sense? Like, I'm not saying that Carlton
Davis isn't I.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Feel no, I feel the same. I feel the same
way about Gonzales. I feel the same way about both
those corners. Like, as far as I'm concerned with Carlton
Davis and Christian Gonzales Week one against the Raiders, you
got to be out there, But until then you're on ice.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
What are they gaining? I guess in these practice it's
what they stand to gain in these practices versus with
Moses gains. I think Moses can gain more of these practices.
I think it tackled in general, such as Moses. I
think a tackle can gain more in this setting than
a cornerback can, especially a veteran to a veteran. With Gonzalez,
take all the time, Like yeah, we want to take
all the time they need. I don't want to. You
don't rush a star player like that back, especially for

(33:18):
you know, not meaningful games. Speaking of which, did you
have to like control yourself when Tatum walked out to practice.
We'll talk without anything. I want to talk about great
question of Drake made by the way good football talk.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Listen as every once in a while as a team employee,
I have to serve up a softball, all right, as.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
About the Duke Q and c rafies. Not a softball
to those guys, haven't. That's the real deal.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
Okay, So I want to I want to stick on
the topic of BND. Okay, h really quickly. I was
I going to say, we'll get back to the corners
and we can talk about that. Let's let's stick on
the offensive line. So I think the most encouraging thing, uh,
from this practice on overall was probably the play of
the offensive line and how a competent they looked, at

(34:01):
least the starting five. Will Campbell I thought really held
his own in team. I really I think I saw
I saw maybe one pressure that he allowed in team, uh.
But for the most part, I thought he was really
good in team. Now one on ones, Dietrich Wise and
him kind of went back and forth, and there was
some splitting of hairs of who won those.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Reps pressure in team, because there was one where I
thought Drake may stepped into it as much as he
allowed the pressure.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
There was one where I thought he got beat around
his edge pretty good.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
But we're talking about every ones.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
I didn't really think. I was watching the line pretty
closely and I didn't really see much of it. There
was another one where it looked like he went to
go block the guy and then the rusher slanted inside,
and then he kicked out and blocked the blitzer coming
off the edge, and he left the inside rusher to
treveon Henderson. But if you watched it, it looked like

(34:54):
Will Campbell whiffed. But I actually think he realized like
mid punch that that was not his guy, and so
he went and got the other guy. But it looked
in in you know, looked in the live viewing of it,
that he whiffed on the block, But I don't think
he actually did. And I actually, I actually been really

(35:14):
encouraged about how well he picks up blitzes coming off
of his edge. He's like, really good at that at
seeing a post snap when a guy is coming off
the edge and blitzing like a like a slot blitzer,
a safety blitz is coming off the edge and sort
of passing his guy off to the interior and going
out and getting the blitzer. He's really good at that.
I thought that he had a really nice block. I

(35:37):
believe it was on Wise actually in the run game
that sprung Travon Henderson for a nice gain. And I
think they're going to consistently be able to stretch out
that left side, whether it's on like a toss or
outside zone or whatever the case may be, because they're
gonna have two great athletes over there with him and Wilson.
So if they're going to run the ball left, I
expect it to be to the perimeter left. Now, hopefully

(35:59):
that doesn't become too predictable, but that would be my guess.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
So I want to ask you something about Campbell because
this is something that and you see this stuff better
than me, but I feel like a big piece of
growth for him through these first few weeks. Look, every tackle,
every offensive line is going to get beat at some point.
Even the greats will get beat. But what makes something
that can make the greats the greats is if you
get beat initially, can you recover and mitigate it and

(36:26):
maybe get beat, but it wasn't a blowby, and you
buy your quarterback or an extra second, or even you recover
entirely that you win the rep where you should have
gotten beat. I feel like with Will Campbell he was
just when he was getting beat early in camp he
was getting beat. That was it. It was clean, and
he's getting beat less now. But I think the more
encouraging thing for me is even when he does get beat,

(36:47):
it feels like it's he's able to mitigate it now,
whether that's just again buying that extra time or he
had a rep yesterday. I don't remeber who was against,
but he had a rep yesterday where it looked like
he was beat. The guy got in his chest, started
pushing them back. He just kind of sank his weight
and basically gave the other guy like you want to
go through me, fine, go through me, Like let's go.
And he was just too strong for the guy to

(37:07):
move him. So that's been the most encouraging thing for
me for Campbell is I don't want to say, like,
I know this sounds kind of dumb. Ohmencouraged because he's
getting beat not his bed, but blah. But it's not that.
It's that when he loses initially, right when the first
step goes to the defender, the rep's not over because
he's doing a better job, especially on that outside in

(37:27):
Wise tried to get him on the outside in yesterday,
I think got half a step on him, and Campbell
kind of registered it, reset himself, and he I think
he came back and he ultimately won the rep. Even
though Wise had the first half step on him. He
wasn't doing that at the beginning of camp, and when
he was getting beat, he was just getting beat. And
I feel like his recovery ability has gotten a lot
better very quickly.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
So you hit the nail on the head. Stn't sell yourself.
Sure you saw it right. The biggest thing that I
see with Will Campbell when I watch him in pass
pro is he because of his length, and I don't
want to make it.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
You don't want to go there. It becomes a whole thing.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
But it's really what it is. He is an aggressive setter.
So some guys and I say this all I feel
like a broken record, and I apologize, but it's just
this is what it really is, the bottom line of this.
Some guys like Trent Brown is always the poster child
for me of this, are so freaking big that they
can just sit back in their chair and catch guys.

(38:27):
They're just gonna sit back, They're gonna clipse the quarterback
and they're gonna let him come to me because they
can't go through me. I'm too big, they can't go
through me. So I'm just gonna keep him at my
fingertips and I'm gonna let him come to me, and
I'm gonna sit back in my chair and I'm gonna
I'm gonna catch him like a baseball catcher would like
I'm literally gonna catch him right. But with Will Campbell,

(38:48):
because of his length, if he does if he tries
to sit back and be patient and let them come
to him, they're going to consistently establish first contact because
their arms are longer than his arms.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
Right.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
In order to combat that, what Will Campbell does at
times is he aggressively goes out and he tries to
be the be the aggressor in the rep. The issue
with being the aggressor in the rep as a tackle
is that when you whiff on the punch, you get
those ugly misses, you get the blowbys because you're overaggressive

(39:22):
and you're getting your weight is getting distributed, you know,
off balance, and then you're punching and then if you
don't land your punch, then he's going to blow right
by you. And I have so he has to figure
this out in terms of and it's on him, and
I know that the coaches are helping him with it too,
to strike that balance of playing within his limitation but

(39:45):
also understanding that you can still be a little bit
more patient than what he has been at times to
avoid those blowbys. Jared Wilson, on the other hand, I
think is fantastic at recovery when he missus his initial punch.
I think that's still something that Campbell is maybe trying
to work on a little bit, is how do I

(40:07):
recover and keep my base and keep my.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Better at it.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
I think he just gotten better at it, and I
think that that I don't think that anything has truly
changed other than him finding out what works, like finding
that balance and striking that cord of how exactly am
I going to play at this level with what well,
you can call him thirty three inch arms with thirty

(40:33):
three inch but this whole can of worms.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
They are the opening the worms is like suggesting you're
lying they are thirty three inch arms. Say it with
your chest because it is a fact. The NFL got
the combine measurement wrong.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Here we go again. How do I play with that
within that framework? And I think he has gotten better
at it, and I'm encouraged by what I've seen in
that respect. But I think that's his biggest issue is
when he is because of the way that he plays
the position, the loss has become ugly because of the
fact that he's setting so aggressively a lot of the time.

(41:10):
It's like a vertical set too, which is like inherently
a hit or miss thing. And like the best vertical
setters of all time are like Joe Thomas and like
the great Tackles right like they they were able to
master the art of the vertical set and be able
to do that consistently. And Joe Thomas didn't have quite
as short arms as Will Campbell, but he was also

(41:31):
on the shorter side of the spectrum in terms of
arm length as well, so vertical setting was really important
for him to master. So that's a technical aspect of
it all. I thought you you to explained it great.
I think that Will Campbell's getting better at it. I've
seen him sort of also like anticipate those inside moves
a little bit more because he knows that other opponents

(41:52):
are going to try to attack that weakness, and so
he's he's doing a little bit of a better job
of sliding his feet and recovering to that inside move.
I keep saying the same thing about Campbell. If I
was him, I would just continue to trust your feet
like you have. He has really smooth, great agility. He's
a really good athlete. He's got great foot speed. Like,

(42:14):
just continue to trust that you can move your feet
instead of punching and reaching and over extending, just keep
your base and just slide, you know, like a basketball
player defending Jason Tatum out on the perimeter, right, just
slide your feet and stay in front of him that way.
I think he's he's growing, like he's getting better at that,
because this was the same thing at LSU. Like at LSU,

(42:37):
you know, there was some ugly misses, Like there was
some ugly whiffs in pass protection on his tape in
college that a lot of people that were Will Campbell
naysayers or detractors, you know, would cherry pick just likely
would cherry pick the good reps right, and he they
would cherry pick these reps. So it's a it's a
work in progress, but I think he's getting a little
bit better at it. And I thought, again, well, I

(42:58):
think it's interesting about him, and then I want to
move on to Wilson. He is so much better in
team than he is in one on ones. Campbell, Yeah, like,
Campbell's so much better in team.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Say this is me just kind of I don't know, uh,
making excuses for Campbell or people Will Campbell fanboy or whatever.
I'm kind of disillusioned with offensive defensive line one on
ones in this camp because so many times tackles or
not just tackles. Everybody has been beaten with inside moves

(43:28):
where it's like, all right, if you go that far inside,
like yeah, you were able to get around him. If
you go that far inside in the game, the guard's
gonna be there, and you're just gonna run into the guard.
Like I don't know, I feel like there's been too
many of those in this camp for me, and maybe
that was always the case. I'm watching a closer now
because of Campbell. This is not just a Will Campbell take.
I mean I've always felt this way about like the
wide receiver corner, right, it's kind of the same thing.
We talk about those all the time, where it's like.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
The offensive line. D line ones are definitely more translatable
to game.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
They're more translatable, but again, like if you go all
the way around inside, yeah, you're gonna run into the guard,
Like that space isn't there. Now if they actually, like
so when they do the three on threes, because they
do in the same setting, but they do three on
three instead of one on one, that one I like
that one. I can buy a little more. Or if
they did the one on one and the like the

(44:14):
guard actually stood there like where he'd stand instead of
sort of getting out of the way, Like I don't know,
it's kind of like the one on ones where it's like,
all right, yeah, the wide receiver toasted the corner, but
the corner was sitting underneath he went over the top
in the game, there's a safety there, and that that's
not actually like applicable. I just feel like there's been
some of those moments.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Absolutely. I think the best thing about one on ones
is just working on technique and working on Oh I'm sure,
but my point is is, like we chart wins and
losses with one on ones, where I think more like
when you practice them as a player, it's more important
of like there's like this thing that I need to
work on, and so I'm going to work on it. Now.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
When I say I'm disillusioned, I mean as an evaluation tour,
not on the whole exercise itself value. I was just explaining, Yeah,
I just like, again i'd weigh eleven on a lie.
I always wait eleven on eleven more. But I'm like
even the seven on sevens in this camp have just
been like, I get why they do them, and they're
important to do, and I understand that my evaluation is

(45:13):
based almost exclusively in eleven's I'm really not looking at
much else of what goes on the one thing. I'll
look at one on one just like just play power, right,
can you just physically right? Anchor?

Speaker 2 (45:24):
So with Jared Wilson, I want to talk about him
a little bit. I just continue to just be wowed
by Jared Wilson, like he's just as ken Kitten Wallace,
but he's just really freaking good and you see that and.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Outl look, that's not exactly what Kadon Wallace say.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I know, but I have to be a little bit
more PG than that. I got him to it a
little bit with Paul about this the other day on
PU because I was already ready to annoy Jared Wilson
as an NFL starter and just be like done with it, right,
and he's, you know, let's wait and see, let's see
what the whole season looks like, and all that kind
of stuff. And I suppose that is fair. But when
you're you know, going up against Doron Pain, you know,

(46:01):
in a joint practice, and Doron Pain tries to like
speed the power bowl and just like go right into
your chest and Jared Wilson just stops some stone cold
and like doesn't move an inch. Like it's hard to
not be like this is this is guy can play right,
Like this guy is pretty right freaking good. As Caden
Wallace said, you talked a lot about, or we talked

(46:22):
a lot about and you brought it up with Campbell.
The recovery talent that that, to me is Jared Wilson's
best trade. His ability to keep his feet and keep
his base, uh and then refit the hands like after
if his initial punch gets swatted, because a lot of
uh what I see a lot with pass rushers in
the one on ones especially, they try to swat his

(46:42):
hands out of the way, like two hands wipe and
like they'll swat his hands and he just has his
ability to just like, be patient, keep his bass about him,
move his feet to recover, and then refit the hands
on back underneath the shoulder blades or you know, the
the chest pad, and like he just does that and
just gets his hands underneath the guy and wins the rep.

(47:04):
And it's it's incredible to watch a rookie. It's not
so much like like the movement, Like the movement's obviously incredible,
but it's the it's the hand fighting to me, like
the chess match of it. He thinks it like he can.
He's already processing the game at a really high level
that is beyond what most rookies, especially with his little experience,

(47:25):
do at this level. And I wonder when I was
talking to his coaches in Duke Mannyweather when I wrote
the feature about him after the draft, Duke pointed out
a really good thing that I don't know if we
put enough stock into think about the the defensive tackles
in Georgia practice that Jared Wilson had faced on this

(47:47):
scout team. So he was on the scout team the
first two years that he was at Georgia, and he
was facing the starting defense for Georgia in practice every
single day.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
I think, don't people bring this up with Patrick's or
tannat Alabama, probably with like the receivers that he faced.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
So he's going up against Jalen Carter and Jordan Davis
and like all these stud Georgia defensive tackles that we've
seen come out of the draft the last couple of years.
So he really, even though he wasn't game experienced at Georgia,
he was kind of like battle tested in a lot
of ways from those practices. And I see that, like

(48:28):
I see him being wise beyond his years and those respects.
So I, Paul, I don't know how it's gonna look
for seventeen games, right, we might be getting ahead of
ourselves a little bit of putting Jared Wilson into the
Patriots Hall fam Like I heard that they chiseled a
statue that's going to go right next to Brady's statue
that they're going to unveil tomorrow night of Campbell and
Jared Wilson. But Jared Wilson, I just have been blown

(48:51):
away by how cerebral and like advanced he is as
a blocker for this point in his career, and how
young he is. He's like twenty two years old and
he's already got all these nuances to the position down.
So I'm really impressed with Wilson. Continued to be thought
he was good yesterday. The one guy that I thought
had a little bit of a rough practice was Garrett

(49:12):
Bradberry at center.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
And he was rotating too.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
This is becoming a little bit of a competition, I
would say, between him and Ben Brown. And I'm really
curious to see. We won't really probably won't really get
a feel for this tomorrow night in the preseason game,
but once we get into the joint practices next week
in Minnesota or I'll be with Deuce next week, that
is going to be really interesting to see if they

(49:36):
start cutting into Garrett Bradberry's starter reps at center with
Ben Brown and at what point I know you don't
want to keep and I'm with you on the whole
shuffling with the rookies and stuff like that. I think
at this point, Jared Wilson's probably locked into left guard
and that's where they're gonna play him. But is there
any well, do you think about it right moving him

(49:57):
over one spot if it really goes south with Bradbury.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Do you think they locked Jared Wilson at center at
left guard so early because they believe that's his best position,
because they didn't trust him at center because remember he
had a couple of bad snaps there.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
I think it's a combination of the I think they
like the experience that Bradbury brings to center that Wilson
obviously wouldn't. Yeah, I think it helps a young quarterback
to have an experience center, and I think that's the thought.
But if Bradbury can't hold up, he can't hold on.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
So I'm still where I'm at, where I've been at
with one in dentdum. If you believe Jared Wilson's your
long term center, I don't see a ton of value
in playing him at left guard this year. Like if
you believe he's a long term center and like him
and Bradbury are essentially a wash, or he's better than Bradbury, right,
I don't see a ton of value in playing him
at left guard this year just to get Bradbury in

(50:44):
there for the veteran Like, like, Wilson's a smart guy,
he'll learn, he'll pick it up. I don't necessarily worry
about that. Also, you can probably get a veteran in
at left guard who can help him. The one addendum
is if he can't snap the ball, he can't snap
the ball. If you can't get it back to the quarterback,
you can't play center. I don't care who you are, right, So,
if they're worried about his snaps, leave mcguard and maybe
maybe leave mcgard long term at that point, because he

(51:06):
hasn't been working on his snaps now that he's been
at the guard so much so he hasn't even really
a chance to work on that, which gets to the
development thing.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
But think the advantage of playing him as a rookie
at guard with the still with the long term plan
of him. Yeah, playing center is just getting the game experience.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yes, he's still gonna have to learn center.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah, but you're but you're still getting in game experience
and you're still blocking.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
You do that at center too.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Right, But at center you have you brought up snapping.
But then there's also the mental.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
Ass right, So he's gonna have to learn that eventually.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
I'd rather learn it sooner and just get accustomed to it.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
That's fair. I just think that as a rookie.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
But if he can't snap the ball. He can't snap
the ball.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
I just wonder if the thought process is for his
rookie year at left guard, he's going to have a
gap or a guy in front of him. You just
block that dude, And it's just it's a one one line.
I'm thinking right like, you're not thinking about, Oh who's
the mic? Oh who is this blitz coming from? Are
we in the right protection? Are we in the right

(52:08):
run fit? Are we like we're not thinking about it.
We're not thinking about snapping. We're literally just taking our
gap or we're taking our man.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
And what are you doing? Like, I don't know. We
don't need to get ahead of the off season. But
just like I think, if you think he's a center,
playmate center. If you think he's a guard, playment guard.
If he can't snap the ball, he's probably a guard.
If you think he can't snap the ball and it
was just rough, you gotta gi him opportunities to work
on it and get better. That's where I'm out with it.
So with Bradbury, I said this, like, I don't I
think Ben Brown's a fine player if he's your fifth

(52:37):
best offensive lineman, and we could argue whether he would
or wouldn't be in this alignment. If Ben Brown's your
fifth best offensive lineman, you're okay, You're okay. You're not great,
but you're okay, You're fine. He'll he'll do enough for you.
I think I think Garrett Bradbury can be that guy too.
I think he was that guy took He's taking a
step back the last two years if he keeps back tracking.

(52:58):
And Ben Brown's a young guy. Last year was his
first year of experience, so he comes in now the
whole of the year of his belt. I've been telling
you guys not to sleep on Ben Brown. Like I
would be okay if Ben Brown's a week one starting center.
I'd rather be Jared Wilson, but I'd be okay if
it's Ben Brown.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
I like Ben Brown's size. I think that's the big
thing that stands out to him is that he's a
bigger center compared to brad Berry. So he just takes
up more space and he's harder to move and all
that good stuff. And that alone at a position like
center can be helpful just because it's really that's what
it is, right, Like it's just don't get pressed back
into the pocket, right And so if he can do that,

(53:34):
then that's helpful now. But Bradberry specifically, I just saw
him and Eddie Goldman. I tried, I had to look
it up. I forgot who the freaking commander's nose tackles.
But Eddie Goldman's like a veteran nose tackle. He's a solid,
rotational run stuffer, exactly what you think of in your
prototypical NFL NOS tackle. And I just thought in one

(53:55):
on ones and then a little bit in team you
just see brad Berry on skates like you see him
trying to your point earlier, like trying to put his
feet in the ground and anchor. And it's not that
he's losing these reps in a hurry. It's that after
like the second or third step, he starts to get
pushed back and starts to strain and isn't able to

(54:15):
put his feet in the ground and drop anchor. That's
the concern with him now. On the one hand, like
it's I don't see him getting like blown by in
pass protection, you don't really get blown by the center,
but he's getting overpowered, which is center like if you
can't if he can't take the nose tackle and put
his feet in the ground and dig in and anchor
against NFL caliber nose tackles. Then it's hard to survive

(54:37):
that center with That.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Goes back to my point about the one on ones,
like you can't really run around a center. Yeah, that's
not something if that other people screwed up, right, right,
So I will say one more thing on Ben Brown though. Yep,
and we haven't even mentioned cole Strange at this point.
Them playing Ben Brown at guard is not good news
for Cole Strange because what this is gonna come down to,
Evan if we can do a little mini roster projection

(55:00):
sort of thing here. Yeah, there's kind of been a
clear line of demarcation between the linemen. They're gonna keep
in the linemen they aren't gonna keep right, So you're
starting five. Everybody's healthy. Campbell, Moses Wilson own Wen now
and will say Bradbury for now, right, So that's your
starting five. They're gonna keep Marcus Bryant the way they've
been using him, encouraged by Marcus Bryant. Uh, They're gonna

(55:20):
keep Marx Brant the way they've us him. They're gona
keep Kaden Wallace the way they've been using him. It's
either gonna be Demontrey Jacobs or maybe they go out
and they get a true left tackle during waivers because
they don't have a real backup left tackle right now.
Maybe it's Marcus Bryant. Maybe it's not tvd Well he's
has he even repped with the second unit.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Yeah no, but I'm just saying left tackle like I am.
I'm with everybody that he can.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Out of sight, out of mind, can't make a club
from the top or Derek Fine. So they're gonna keep
the left tackle TBD, Demantre Jacobs, Vederian Lowe a waiver
signing something.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I think you need. You only need one of those
two guys. I don't think you need both because I
think a point Marcus Brant enough that he's he makes it.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, okay, so maybe this change is my take, But Campbell,
Moses Wilson, and WHENU Bradbury, Bryant, Caden Wallace. Yeah, I
still think they're keeping another tackle. That's eight, So now
you're at nine. It's Ben. It's basically Ben Brown and
Cole Strange for the last spot in my mind, and
I the advantage Cole Strange had in that matchup is
Ben Brown was exclusively a center and Cole Strange maybe

(56:24):
it wasn't a great center, but he played it and
he could play garden center. Well, now if Ben Brown
can also play garden center and they're both left guard
center highbrids, now it's just a sprint to the finish.
Who's a better player? Am I you? Ben Brown? Am
I wrong?

Speaker 2 (56:40):
No? But that's just such a tough I.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Want to pick on him. But like when I say,
who's a better player, who's been better in this camp
so far?

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Be close.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
I thought Cold Strange had a rough day yesterday.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
It's close, and I don't think that that. You know,
I'm not slamming that shut. Maybe Cole Strange comes out
and it is awesome tomorrow and we're we're reopening the conversation.
But the advantage Cole straight Strange had was positional versatility. Right,
Maybe Brown, Maybe Ben Brown can't play guard, maybe sucks
at it, and then that changes it.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
But like he's got the body type.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
If he comes out here tomorrow, Ben Brown plays a
really good left guard. I mean, are you keeping Cole
Strange as a ninth lineman?

Speaker 2 (57:16):
No?

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Right, So that's kind of an And this is for
like this show. Take right, Ben Brown getting reps pack
up left guard is actually kind of a big deal
when it comes to the roster because it puts Cole
Strange on the bubble where otherwise he might not have
been there.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
Yeah. No, I'm totally with you on that.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
I guess the caveat would be the same thing I
said for Jared Wilson. If Ben Brown outright wins the
center job and Garrett Bradbury doesn't want to be here
as a backup, well now Cole Strange is your backup center.
So Garrett Bradbury is.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, yeah, I know what you meant. I'm with you
one hundred percent with that. That is exactly how I
took the Ben Brown at left guard thing I practice
the other day was they're trying to see if he
can play guard too, because if you're going to make
the team as a backup, and especially if you're going
to be active on game day as a top interior backup,
you have to be able to play all three positions. Yeah,
because normally you're not going to have two backup interior

(58:09):
offensive lineman active on game day. Normally they just go
with one. So if they're going to do that, then
you have to be able to play all three spots.
So they're trying to see if Ben Brown can play
guard so that if he's the top backup on game day,
they know that he can play all three and even if.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
They have too, Like I think they're going to have
this weird setup where Cayden Wallace is going to be
like a backup right guard, right tackle.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
I actually think that that's a great idea for Caden Wallace,
and I know that we all sort of thought because
of where he was drafted, you hope that he could
become a starter. But if you drafted like a two
position backup that's or a top backup at two different positions,
and he ends up being like a guard tackle flex

(58:51):
who's really a right side player primarily, it's not ideal
for a top one hundred pick, but it's not the
worst case scenario. At least at least you got like
a good like sixth or seventh offensive lineman out of
the pick. I could live with it. I could live
with it. It wasn't like he was drafted fourth overall like
Will Campbell, right like, you can live with that being

(59:11):
Kayden Wallace's career path. I want to talk about Marcus
Bryan because I'm I'm getting more and more encouraged about
Marcus Brian. I'm gonna give this take to so I'm
gonna give this take today and then tomorrow he's gonna
play a ton in the preseason game. We'll see how
it goes. How about that, because we'll see like this,

(59:32):
he's gonna play a ton tomorrow. We know that all
these rookies are probably gonna play a little bit. Uh,
and especially the back of the draft rookies like Marcus
Bryan is drafted in the seventh round. I expect to
see a lot of him, and I'm excited to see
what it looks like on tape because I feel like
his past protection has been pretty decent when he's out
there at right tackle. The thing that I like so

(59:52):
much about Marcus Bryan is his flexibility. We're just talking
about this with the guards. He played left tackle in
college opposite arm On Membu at Missouri, and now they're
training him to play right tackle. So we know he.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Started at right tackle for a year and a half
in college at SMU before transferred.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
So we know he can play ball. He might be
a true swing tackle and if he's a true swing tackle.
That's a home run pick.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
That's tremendous value.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Yeah, have you drafted a swing tackle if you drafted
the next likely Adrian Waddle? You know I loved in
the seventh round. Uh great pick. Yeah, great pick. And
I'm hoping that that's what they got out of Marcus Briant.
But you thought he had a little bit of a
rough day yesterday.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
Uh yeah, I thought he got blown by a couple
of times. That I mean, I thought he got blown
by a couple times. Demontre Jacobs didn't have a good
day either. I just thought the backup tackles as a
whole just and I'm worried about their tackle depth overall.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Well, that's why I'm worried about it too, And that's
why I'm sort of hoping that this thing with Marcus
Bryant six because he's he looks to me, just based
off the practices, I think he's already uh cleared Demontree Jacobs, Yes,
which I understand that's not the bar, but for a backup.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
That is kind of Yes, he's the top backup. Yeah,
he drafted him to be your backup tackle. He's cleared
the Yeah, he's a rookie, and there's inherent unknowns that
come with that and after him, especially on the left side,
because when they drafted him, we all thought he was
the right tackle. Yep, right, we all thought, all right,
maybe he's a long term project behind Morgan Moses, maybe
he becomes that backup swing tackle. But like he profiles

(01:01:17):
like a right tackle in the Patriots system. So you
look at that and it's like, okay, who's so who
who like Evan today? Who's their backup left tackle?

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
I still think it's probably ve Darien Lowe And okay, he's.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
The guy who's done three practices all with the third team. Yeah,
who wasn't good last year?

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
He was not good last year.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Right, So they don't have a backup left tackle. They don't.
This is but this comes that's Bryant. That's great. After that,
that pipeline drives it like sure, but they can still play.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
But I think the one thing I would just say
that to kind of play Devil's advocate to that, how
many teams have four good tackles?

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
All right, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
How many teams have two good tackles?

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Very few? But I just when you have a thirty
four year old on one side and a rookie on
the other.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
It's a fair concern. But I would say that that
is my concern with the entire team.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
If Marcus Bryant, yeah, I have depth concern. He's about
a lot of positions.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
That's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
If Marcus Bryant can be like Adrian Waddell, I'm with you, like, great,
that'd be great, that would be excellent, that would be okay.
If you need him to spot start for Morgan Moses
in a couple of games, great, You know he can
fill in on both sides whenever you need him. He
allows you to carry You don't have to carry four tackles,
you can just carry three and really like you will
still have a backup right tackling Kyan Wallace, even if

(01:02:33):
he's counted as a guard, so you're gonna have three
and a half tackles, which would be fine. He just
needs to be able to play a little bit on
the left side.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Yeah, there you go the whole all right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Well, you know if Arma on Memmick couldn't be moved
and he's so good at right, well, why don't they
just draft the guy that was on the left side instead?
Maybe that maybe that there was something to that whole thing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
He is, uh, he is the exact type of offensive
lineman that if you're a line coach you want to
work with. He's six seven, three ten pounds with really
really high end athleticism. So if you can just teach
them the position and coach them up on technique and
all that good stuff, He's got all of the tools
in the world and from a physical standpoint to be

(01:03:13):
a serviceable NFL tackle, they just got to get him there.
They's got to coach them up. And hopefully with this
coaching staff, it's they have the coaching that can do that,
you know, with Morone and the seventeen offensive line coaches
that they have now, like, hopefully they can get guys
to that point. Hopefully we're back in the world where
you know Lee Adrian Waddell or you know Cam Fleming

(01:03:34):
or whatever like that's back in play, Like they can
develop those kinds of players again, That's that's the hope.
And I see that maybe happening before our eyes a
little bit with Marcus Priyant.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Well that's encouraging.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
So that's the offensive line. I want to talk about
receivers and I promise we are going to talk a
little bit about defense as well, but I want to
talk about their receivers, and then I want to take
some calls because I know these people have been waiting
for a while. Can I start on the receivers, Yes,
you can.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
You owe me an apology.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
I owe you an apology about.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
What I gave a take three days in a camp.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
You gave a take.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
I gave a take that. Hey, by the way, it
wasn't a loud take. It wasn't a hint banging the
table take.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Well, now you're gonna say it with your chest, so
say it with your chest.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
I said at the time, Javon Baker was having a
good start to camp.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
You did, and everybody, well, I wasn't on the show
that laughed at you know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
You came up to me after and laughed at me. Yeah,
you texted me and you laughed at me. And I
still don't know whether or not Chevon Baker's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Making everybody's just laughing at it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
I still don't know whether not Chevon Baker's making the team.
But he's a hell of a lot closer than he
was at the start of camp. I'll tell you that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
So I wanted to go a big picture on the
receivers for a second, and then go a little picture again.
So let's zoom out for a second when we can
get to your Javon Baker take.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
I'm just saying I'm starting three years doing Taekwon. It
never caught on. I just sort of off the cuff.
Give one, Jon Baker taken.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
It, and every and everybody roasted you for it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
I'll give you that they're doing Taekwon against any bo.
This is what Taekwon does. This is this is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Taekwon's time to shine. This isn't real football. This is
Taekwon's time to shine. OTAs in training camp is like
Taekwon Thornton might as well be Randy freaking Moss at
this time of year.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
Like this isn't hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Yeah, this is what he does. And then he'll land
on his collar bone trying to catch a pass and
he'll get hurt and he'll be out for six weeks.
This is what Taekwon does. Back to the are the
receivers that are currently on the Patriots roster. The question
that I have with you at wide receiver because I
I've been on some of some shows over the last
couple of weeks. I was in your spot yesterday on

(01:05:38):
the On the Crossover podcast on my old stomping grounds
on Seal n S. There's a there's some buzz building
for this wide receiver room, that this wide receiver room
might actually be legit, not just competent, but might actually
be legit. Like I feel like there's people that are
now starting to come out of the woodwork and say,

(01:05:59):
maybe we should start rating this Patriots wide receiver room
a little bit with a little bit more of respect,
Like where are you on that? Because it's better than
it's been and there's no doubt about that. But I
might not be ready to all of a sudden start
talking about like this is like a top half of
the league wide receiver room or wherever you want to

(01:06:20):
put that. You understand what I'm getting at, because I
feel like we're sorry to get into that categy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Here's the thing. I think we're done with the conversation
about are they like the worst room in the league
right or at the bottom five. We got a really
good example of just how far they've come. That commander's
wide receiver room blows.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Okay, well, Terry McLarin, Well, then on ter McLaren right now, Well,
he will be out there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Everybody else besides him. They nobody got opened yesterday, zach
Ertz did none otherwise. Did they have one instance of
a receiver getting separation with the first team with the
Patriots top two corners out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Yeah, I mean they had a one that they have,
like a I think he's a UDFA that they're all
pretty high on. He like he Moss Marcus Jones at
one point, but.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
It sounds like us, Oh, the DFA Moss the five
eight corner. There's hope. Yeah, we've been in those shoes, right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Yeah, but I got clipped for making fun of the
Commander's receiver room, So I'm gonna be careful.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
The point the point, the point being like we're not
there anymore. Are they the best room in the league? No?
Are they the worst room in the league? Definitely not.
I think it's a representative room. Stefan Diggs, if he
is truly as healthy as he looks, right, Stefan Diggs
raises the level of that, and that's important. But I
gotta give here's what it. So, I wanted an apology
from you. Here's we're all given apology. Okay, I was

(01:07:36):
down on Kishan Buoti because and you guys have heard
me give this spiel before, like the consistency was not there,
and I just didn't think he was going to get there.
I just thought it was going to be flashes and
that was it, and he was going to be this
fringy player. He hasn't had necessarily some of those apex
high point flashes, and I guess he has the last
couple of days, like the beginning of camp, he didn't
have these like unbelievable plays, like the jaw dropping plays.

(01:08:00):
He was getting open and he was catching two to
three passes a day, and he was just constantly involved.
And that's what I needed to see from him. I
know the high level stuff is there, but that's not
going to be every play. Are you still able to
find ways to contribute between it? And that's what he
really didn't. I'll throw out his first year because he
essentially got bench for the whole year. That's what he
didn't do last year when he wasn't making unbelievable plays,

(01:08:22):
he wasn't making any plays. He wasn't just making an
okay play. And he's made a ton of okay, solid,
move the chains plays in this camp, and if you're
gonna be a guy wh's gonna be on the field
sixty sixty five at least that percent of the time,
which is what it looks like. The roles that's in
store for him, you have to be able to do that.
You have to be able to move the change as
well as is take the top off down the field.

(01:08:43):
And he's done that. So Stefan Diggs being healthy, Kayshawn
body showing some tremendous consistency. MATC. Collins has kind of
popped here in the last couple of days. Like, yep,
the floor is so much higher. I don't know if
the ceilings that much higher compared to where it's been.
The floor is so much higher because because of Digs
and booty mainly, and I'll throw mac Hollins in there
as well.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
That's a good that's a that's a good way of
putting it. I still don't know if the ceiling is
astronomically high in terms of the top end talent in
the room. Like I Diggs is a good player. I'm
excited about Diggs. I've said a million times. I think
he's gonna catch a hundred passes this year.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Pops looked awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Yeah, And I want to get to Pop in a second,
but I still am not sure without Kyle Williams, who's
been a little bit quiet. If Kyle Williams had been
had come in here and started and just was tearing
up camp and looked like the steal of the draft,
he looked like Glad McConkey, right, then maybe I would
sit here and say, Okay, I I feel like the
ceiling is a little bit higher what I definitely agree

(01:09:41):
with you on and I thought you put it well.
The floor of this room is much higher than it
has been the last couple of years, which is encouraging.
The one guy that I feel like has really blown
me away, though, is Pop. Like I've just been extremely
impressed with how at home he looks in the slot
and this offense. And we always knew that the slot

(01:10:02):
produced in this offense. And I guess it was maybe
me not giving him enough credit. But he even talked
about it. And I asked him about it after practice
the other day, just what do you attest to the
mental growth in your game? And he said that he
studied like he studied harder and he focused, you know,

(01:10:22):
and he studied harder, and it's not I never had
any reservations about Pop Douglas, the separator Like Pop Douglas,
the athletic ability that he brings to the table. I
think he's very I think he's I think he's a weapon.
I think he's athletic. I think he's bursty. I think
he's quick. I think he can separate. What I just
didn't know about was was he going to be able

(01:10:43):
to grasp the nuances to expand beyond what is essentially
like you know, a pseudo gadget player, right, and he has,
to his credit, he has you know, you look it up.
Last year he's at sixty six catches for like just
over six hundred yards. He was under ten yards per catch.
I thought that maybe that was what he was capable of,

(01:11:05):
And watching him in this training camp, I'm starting to
think that maybe there's more. There's more there, that he
has another level that he can reach. Sandri Still is
a good nickel like he's a good slot corner. And
Pop Douglas had that man in Hell yesterday like he
was torching Sandra Still for most of that practice. And

(01:11:28):
I know Sanders still gets to pick at the end,
so he kind of gets the last laugh.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Bobby Wagner made that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
But Bobby Wagner and Sanders still was dusted at the
line of scrimmage again by Bob Douglas on that play
and just got lucky that the ball deflected in the
air right to him. So I felt like, especially early
on in this practice, that Bob Douglas was had him
in the torture chamber like he was in in the
freaking hurricane. And uh, Douglas has come a long way

(01:11:54):
in terms of the nuances like understanding where the space is,
where the options are in the raw, how do I
get open against man, how do I settle against zone?
How do I make myself available as quickly as possible
to the quarterback as a target, And you just see
the quick hitters are just McDaniel's vintage McDaniels, you know,
like Edelman Welker vintage McDaniels. So I guess after all

(01:12:17):
of that glazing, my question is about with Pop, like
how statistically like, how high truly is this ceiling.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
He's got to stay healthy. That's my big question with Pop.
That's been my question with Pop as long as he's here.
I've always believed he can be, you know, a real
offensive threat. Maybe not in a volume sense. I've said this,
I don't think he's a high volume player, and they
might not need him to be. I think that's digs
in this offense. But anytime the ball is in his hands,
it can be touchdown from anywhere on the field for
multiple I.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Just wonder, like what, because I'm just to stay healthy.
He's got to stay healthy, but like, is there is
there a volume level for him? Like because it realistically
he was like I said, he's a sixty sixty five
catch guy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
As he was, I stand by, like, I don't he
I think he should be on the field in eleven.
I think he's a part of your offense in base eleven.
When you go into twelve or twenty one, he's probably
the guy I'm taking off the field. Yeah, so that
limits him a little bit. Yeah, but I still think
those plays where he's on the field, he can be
tremendously impactful. So, you know, things I'll be looking at
with him. He's not like total catches is not going

(01:13:19):
to be what I'm looking at with him. It's going
to be you know, yards, can he get that yards
yards per catch? I think yards after the catch is
big number with him. I think you know what percent
of his catches go for first downs? That could be
a number where I think he could be one of
the you know where he could lead the team, be
one of the better receivers in the league. Maybe not
total first downs percentega catchers for first downs, that kind

(01:13:40):
of thing. Again, I don't think he's your volume guy.
I don't think you need him to be your volume guy.
Which is fine. I think I've said this for everybody
wants to because he's small and the lines up in
the slot. Everybody wants to camp him to Julian Edelman.
But when right when Julian Edelman was getting one hundred
and twenty targets and get the cramp beat out of him,
Danny Amandola with his speed and he was faster than
people realize. Is taken off down the field, or maybe

(01:14:02):
Chris Hogan's a better camp for this. He's not small,
but like Chris Hogan's taken off down the field and
using his speed to create separation and cashing in on defenses,
collapsing down to take away that volume guy. That's what
I think Pop's role is. He's not Edelman that might
end up being Digs honestly, the way they draw this
thing up, or it could even be mc hollins. He
could be like a Jacobe Myers type. I think Douglas

(01:14:24):
is the guy that when they bring that safety closer
to the line, or when they go single high to
get somebody extra in the box because you're running the
ball well establishing the run, or because you just keep
hitting step On Diggs on these five yard hitches in
these seven yard inns and all right, we got to
bring somebody down. Well, now that's when you send Pop up,
or that's when you do some sort of screen or

(01:14:46):
end around and get him out on the perimeter and
get him isolated one on one on a tackler and
he can make something explosive happen. That's the role I
think he's going to thrive in.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
So I think that that's a role that I thought
that he was going to thrive in this camp. He's
just it has been so good, and I just wonder,
is there a I think the better cop would probably
be like Troy Brown, Dion Branch level to pop Douglas,
because he's not Edelman or Welker like those guys.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
Branch might be a better one.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
I think the biggest thing about but.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Those guys were like the number one receiver.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
But I think the biggest thing about Edelman and Pop
and what's different between the two of them is Edelman
was built like a running back like Edelman was.

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
Like dense, dense and popas more straight lines, right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
But Edelman was just a dense dude that could take
those hits over the middle of the field. Welker the
same way, but Edelman more so. Edelman was like an
MMA fighter like that guy was. He was chiseled so
like he had that ability. I don't know if Pop
has that ability, but can they kind of like hey,
like does his separation lend itself to so much space

(01:15:53):
that like he can just kind of get into YAC
mode and and get away from the traffic or b
does he learn that like Dion Branch sixth sense, like
when to duck down, when to know the journey is over,
to like avoid the b almost.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
I don't want him to do I when I say
I don't want him to do I want him to
take care of himself. I want him stay healthy, but
like he's so good after the catch, I don't want
him to lose that. Now, there's a fine line. He
probably he kept fumbling his rookie year because he was
trying to extend plays too much. But like, I don't
want I don't want him becoming Tyler Lockett. And I
know that's an extreme example, but his best. I think

(01:16:28):
he's best when the balls in his hands. That's what's
crazy about him having this good camp. You really don't
do yack in camp. He's more of a threat to
me after the catch than before it. So I don't
want him being a guy that has to worry about
protecting himself and giving up opportunities after the catch. That's
where I want him thriving. That's where I want him
really crea.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
I guess I don't disagree that that's the strength of
his game. I think his separation ability is the best
part of his game.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
Oh see, I think it's after the cat. I still
go back like that game he had in Dallas. Do
you remember that? And I think Mac Jones through like
three picks an act game, So you throw that one aside,
But like remember that one up the side on where
he hits the half juke backspin, like like he looks
like he looks like Tyreek Kill on that plane. I'm
not saying he's tyray Kill, but he looks like Tyrek
Kill on.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
I've heard him compared to Dollar Store Tyree like.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
I want him doing Day Three's a right fower. Yeah,
I want him doing that sort of stuff. That's what
I want him doing. That's where I think he's at
his best.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
I think is his separation is his best? Like they're
both good traits, yes, but I just wonder, I wonder
what the volume where we can get to.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
We should ask volume. This would be fun. We should
do like catch twenty two.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
See we can grab him real quick after practice and
what's your best?

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
We both will know, Pop. We both think you're very good.
But we had a little argument. Do you think you're
at your best before the catch or after the catch?

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
That's a good question.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
I'm curious what he thinks.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
I don't know. I don't know, Matt. If they're gonna
if they'll give catch twenty two a guest, I think
that that that's practice.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
We can go to him. He doesn't have to come
in here.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
Guess all right, Well, maybe we'll do that. Because we
both like Pop. We've all have Pop since the beginning. Well,
I don't want to give us credit for discovery ring
Pop Douglas, but I don't want to not give us
credit for discovering Pop Douglas because we might have discovered
media sense. We were some of the first people talking
about I'm going to pat ourselves on the back for
a second with this and then then I want to

(01:18:13):
move on. Yeah, So Alex and I covered the Shrine
Bowl that Pop Douglas was in. That was twenty twenty two,
twenty three, twenty three because Bill O'Brien was hired, so
twenty twenty three, and we use the site, a very
good site, mock Draft Database. They did a really good
job of compiling like all the experts opinions on the
draft and where everybody is and Pop Dougl we were two.

(01:18:35):
There was other reporters there. I'm not going to give
us the loan credit, but we were the ones that
were really covering those practices, like on a with a
big platform like we were doing it here on Patriots
dot com. It was a good sized platform. And Pop
Douglas's projection was He's going to go on drafted and
he wasn't really like the seven hundred something up that
it wasn't really on anybody's radar. And mock draft database

(01:18:58):
has a chart at chart where it shows like the
trajectory of a player, whether it's up down, up, down
of his stock and as after the Shrine Bowl, after
Alex and I discovered this jitterbug receiver out of Liberty,
his line graph went from like all the way down
here to like all the way up that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:19):
He went from like seven something to like the like
three tens something like that ended up around two fifteen. Yeah,
I went on with with Tom Kern when we were there,
and I said, he was like, who'd you see him?
Because the whole big thing was day Flowers was there, yes,
and his say Flowers was supposed to be the story.
And I was like, well, Jay Flowers didn't practice, but
if that's what you want, yeah, let me tell you about.
And then there was another guy because you kept getting

(01:19:40):
them mixed.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
Up from Jackson Dallas Daniels, Dallas Daniels, from Jackson State.

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
And it's another like small shifting there was.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
It was like three tiers and we made the That
was when the nickname day three Z became a thing
with Pop Douglas. It was like Zay Flowers was there
and he was the Day one version of this archetype.
Then Pop Douglas was there, keep going and he was
like the Day three version of this archetype. And then
Dallas Daniels was there and he was like the UDFA
version of this archetype. And it was those three guys

(01:20:10):
and they all were playing the same who's the Day
two guy in Well, I don't think there was, Well
Josh Downs was the Day two guy, but he was
right Dallas Daniels, Yeah, Mass Jesus Pirates, no way, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
He was on the Broncos at one point.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
So so that that's Pop Douglas. We discovered Pop Douglas.
I'm giving us credit for.

Speaker 1 (01:20:27):
That from a media standpoint.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
Yeah, of course, like he discovered credit right, Yeah, true,
that that's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
The credit we we we were responsible for bringing him
to the mainstream where where like the guys like we,
we didn't start the band, We didn't create the band,
but we were the ones who like went to some
random concert and a dingy bar one night, saw this
band that rock, and then went out and told everybody, hey,
you gotta listen to this band, and then the band
blows up.

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
We started the fire. What we started the fire? Sure,
there you go. All right, let's get to the phones.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
We didn't even do defense.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Yet, I know, but they been waiting for over an hour.

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):
The whole team have quick you know, I'm always right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:04):
I'm going to get to the defense. All right, let's
see if these guys are still holding. What's up Sean
and Vancouver? How are we doing good?

Speaker 5 (01:21:11):
I have a couple of things. So with the offensive
line that I'm saying, they will be, but if they're
the worst offensive line in the league again, they'll still be.
And I guarantee it's a lot better than last year.
Last year they had four players who probably don't even
make an NFL roster, and they're one player that was
their best offensive lineman he has down here. So yeah,
it's it's gonna be better. And I mean not to

(01:21:34):
say that it's going to be in the top half,
but it'll be better than it will.

Speaker 4 (01:21:39):
Now.

Speaker 5 (01:21:39):
The other thing I want to talk about is, uh, sorry,
I just have to catch my person.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
Yeah, be careful out there, Sean.

Speaker 5 (01:21:50):
Yeah, no, I'm on my way to a fitting for
audacity some walking along the six Street. Sorry about the traffic. Yeah, Well,
the other thing I wanted to tell you not to
talk about other podcasts, but I was listening to this
fantasy podcast about fantasy football, and they made me feel

(01:22:12):
the best about the Patriots that I felt in years.
Like they have this thing called ice and fire, and
they have two eyes players, the Drake May and their
other eye players. We've been talking about it, You've been
talking about us. So it just made me feel so
much better about this team.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
So I'll leave be on that thanks to the call, Sean,
be safe out there, Sean, don't be dodging traffic to
talk to us. So I've said this before, but I'll
say it again. This is the first time since maybe
since I've actually been professionally covering the team that the
Patriots have fantasy relevant players.

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
But they do, and they don't because Josh McDaniels inherently
makes all his players fantasy irrelevant because he's such a
game plan coach.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
Okay, but like you're drafting digs, yeah, digs probably. Yeah,
you're drafting Hunter hen because tight ends not ye, you're
drafted Hunter Henry.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
And I'm not like they've been fantasy.

Speaker 2 (01:23:05):
Relevant, like running back wise, they've had some fantasy relevant
running backs over the years.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
I mean PPR.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
I don't know if I'm touching running backs right now
with the Patriots, but maybe Henderson late Why the PPR
league get wide receiver having a relevant player like Stefan
Diggs and so.

Speaker 1 (01:23:20):
That's fantasy relevant wide receivers.

Speaker 2 (01:23:22):
Yes, maybe Pop Douglas too. Maybe I think the Pop
Douglas thing with fantasy that's gonna hurt him as the touchdowns, Like,
I don't think he's gonna have the touchdown production to
be super fantasy relevant, but maybe I guess prime Edelman
was probably fantasy relevant. So like eighteen nineteen, maybe we
covered some teams in that range that had Patriot fantasy
players that were relevant at wide receiver. But you might

(01:23:44):
have to go all the way back to Brandon Cooks
seven in twenty seventeen to like, because Edelman was always
just the slot machine, right, Like, he wasn't a big
touchdown guy or really a big fantasy producer. But yeah,
it's a it's a it's a good time right now
that they they're finally turning the curve in that sort
of respect. All right, Patty is an aguan. What's up,
Patty guys? How you doing good?

Speaker 3 (01:24:10):
So Alex, I gotta apologize. I'm sorry for tasking you
with what I tasked you with yesterday.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
I got him the shirt.

Speaker 3 (01:24:21):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
Patty gave me a PEPSI to give to Paul Nice.
I think I gave it a mic and made mic
to it. But all right, there you got nice.

Speaker 3 (01:24:32):
If you, like I said, if you want one for
like golfin Altun went to the studio for you, buddy.
But what I one of my big takeaways from yesterday
was I don't think this team is going to lack
effort at all this coming year, especially after Brabel jumped
in the piles during the skirmish. And a question for

(01:24:55):
you guys, do you do you think that like we
might actually have like a real NFL team this year
because I don't know what the hell what we watched
people last two seasons, but it was an NFL football.

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
No, thanks for the representative group, and you're absolutely right
about the effort. They love their coach.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):
So is that the question that I have that I
keep coming back to with what Patty just said because
I'm with him like that, is that the bar for
this year?

Speaker 1 (01:25:23):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
Are you happy as a Patriot fan? This year. If
the bar is just yep, that was an NFL season,
like we had football season.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
Two checkboxes for me. We've been over this, two check
taxes for me.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
Week eighteen is a meaningful game, so we had a
football season.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
So well, no, there's two parts. This Week eighteen is
a meaningful game, yes, and meaningful for the playoffs, not
the draft, not like last year. Right, if they you know,
need help Week eighteen and they win, but another team
wins that they need to lose it fine, whatever, there's
a caveat to that though. They have to be better
at the end of the year than they are at
the beginning, or at least very level the whole way through.
They can't start five and four in finish six and eleven. Right,

(01:26:04):
they can't do one of those things because even go
back to the end of Bill, they've been falling apart
at the end of seasons. So Week eighteen matters, and
it matters because you built as the season went on.
You were better at the end than you were at
the beginning. So those are my two. And Drake May
doesn't turn the ball over a million times, I guess
that would be my.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
My only thing with the Week eighteen matters. Thing is
that week eighteen, I think it was week eighteen. By
this point, they were technically alive in twenty twenty two.

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
So that's why I added the caveat about being better
at the better in.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
The twenty twenty two season. If they had won in Buffalo,
they were in the playoffs.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
They should help.

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):
I thought it was when.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
They needed help. I remember that they needed help. I
thought it was when they needed help.

Speaker 2 (01:26:41):
Regardless they were technically it was a if they had
won the game, they were alive the point.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
Well, but that's why, because we had this conversation already,
That's why did that caveat. Why did that game they started?
What did they start that year? Yeah, they started they
were over five hundred for a little bit there. Yeah,
they we earned six and four and then they went
five and two or two and five down the stretch. Yeah,
So that's why I added the kate, you got to
be better at the end. In the beginning, you got

(01:27:08):
to be in the playoffs. We gotta be better at
the end of the beginning. If they start two and
five and finish eight and nine and they get knocked
out on the last week of the year, I mean
I got to see how it all plays out. But
I might not hate that. That might be Okay, they
gave me what they need to give me, Like maybe
a little better than that, just with their schedule being
as bad as it is, but like that's kind of

(01:27:28):
what I'm looking for.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
Fair enough? All Right, Nate is in Connecticut. What's up, Nate? Yeah,
we got you, all right.

Speaker 4 (01:27:37):
So my question for you guys is about Kyle Duggart.
I know he's someone you haven't really mentioned at all
on the two shows. What have you guys seen out
of him these past couple of training camps? You know,
yet I haven't really heard really anything about him. Is
he is he's still under that lump from his injury

(01:27:59):
this pre year, or is the bouncing back sort of
and he's getting back into the groove.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
Thanks you guys, Thanks for the calling Nate. That's a
good segue onto the defense. So let's get to that
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(01:29:08):
dot Patriots dot com slash community. All right, Kyle Duggar
is a good segue by Nate there. This is becoming
kind of like the receiver topic of how good is
this receiver room? Actually, how good is this safety room actually,
and what's going on at safety has become another hot
button area of concern, if you will. And Kyle Dugger

(01:29:30):
has had a slow camp, and I think the thing
that makes it different from past camps kind of like
what Nate was asking with Kyle Dugger is usually with
Kyle Dugger there's some splash plays mixed in there where
like even if it's kind of fluky, like he'll get
a pick six, or he'll intercept the pass, or he'll
recover a fumble or like something right, something like usually

(01:29:52):
splashy happens with Kyle Dugger that makes him noticeable on
the practice field. This year, I feel like the only
thing that I'm noticed seeing is him not exactly holding
up in coverage.

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
He was better yesterday, I guess, not in coverage, he's
better overall. I say, yeah, I've said that, like I
want to play Coyle Lugger in the box. I just
want to play Kyle Lugger in the box and let
him hunt the football. Yeah, that's where he's at his best.
Let him do that. They haven't been able to do
that the last couple of years because they don't have
a true deep safety. And then Jabrill Peppers was away
from the team and he was just the guy. So
they have Jalen Hawkins, they have Marcus EPs. Hopefully he

(01:30:25):
can do it now. Is lil think Peppers is a
tremendous player. I still think Kyle Dugger is a starting
caliber player if you put him in that role where
he can succeed, which they should be able to do,
especially in this defense. Uh. And then I like their
dad Hawkins, Epps, Craig Woodsins. Craig Woodson has shown some flashes.
See if Dell Pettis ends up sticking around, But they
have to be healthy. Duggar and Peppers are both significant

(01:30:47):
ifs when it comes to health. Epps is coming off
of torn acl. If they're healthy, it's a really good
safety room if they're healthy. And that's not like, that's
not an insignificant if with this group.

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
So I think we're this uh. And we got a
an email about this as well, you know, titled defending
tight Ends. I think that where this is all stemming
from is that Kyle Dugger, when he's been asked to
defend tight ends throughout his career, and then even in
the practice yesterday against Zach Ertz, he got beat a
couple times by Ertz. It's not an area of his

(01:31:20):
game that I think is a particular strength, like man
coverage against tight ends. And if it's not Kyle Duggart.
And then you watch Jabrill Peppers and he's been playing
sort of the hybrid role still where he's you know,
been in the box quite a bit or even I've
seen him actually in the third down pass rush package
quite a bit. Two he he did that a little
bit as a rookie. Yeah, Peppers like third three level

(01:31:42):
guy right now. With this defense, I think Peppers is
gonna definitely be here and be active for the Patriots defense.
So if Peppers is doing that sort of thing, and
you don't want Dugger playing the deep part of the
field because you don't really think that's a particular strength
of his and he's not holding up covering tight ends,
this is how we're getting to these rumors about Kyle
Dugger And I think I don't know if a rumor

(01:32:04):
might be a little strong more might have just been
a take. I think Badard was sort of the first one. Yeah,
let's call it a take by Greg that maybe Kyle
Duggart could be on the outside looking in and Look,
this is what happens too with new coaching staffs. Like
this coaching staff gets here, they start to get into
camp and figure out the roster and how the pieces
of the roster fit together, and they just might look

(01:32:26):
at it a little bit differently. I think when the
Patriots signed Peppers and Dugger both to those extensions, they
were just thinking, good football players. We're gonna keep good
football players here. This is what we're gonna do. Now
that Vaabel's in here, I wonder if him and Terrell
Williams are looking at it and being like, well, they're redundant, right,
There's too much overlap to these two skill sets, whereas

(01:32:47):
a Craig Woodson or a Jalen Hawkins might be able
to offer a little bit more of a free safety
body type. And we don't need we don't really love
Dugger and Peppers together. And I wonder if we are
going down that path, that might not mean that Kyle
Duggar is gone this year like it might. This might
be a next offseason thing where they fished his contract.

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
Makes it tough for right.

Speaker 2 (01:33:09):
They'd have to probably find a trade, and I think
that's hard to do.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
And I just wouldn't sell low on a guy like that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
Yeah, So that's where we're at with Kyle Dugger. You know,
the emailers said, uh so can we just get ready
for brock Bowers to go for ten for one fifteen
in week one. My hope about this this, uh you know,
to this point with Bowers coming in here week one,
I'm hoping that Rabel is going to have uh that

(01:33:36):
Belichick game plan gene where he's going to be able
to say anybody but Bowers. Yeah, and maybe that means brackets.
Maybe that means, you.

Speaker 1 (01:33:46):
Know, horner. I think it means corner, a corner.

Speaker 2 (01:33:49):
Maybe that means like Robber or low whole help all
the time, so that you're you're not truly bracketing him,
but you kind of are bracketing him with two eyeballs,
you know, four set, two sets, four eyeballs on brock
Bauers most of the game. I would like to think
that they're gonna make the Raiders beat them without feeding

(01:34:09):
brock Bauers at that level. But we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 (01:34:13):
In a long way to be a corner because when
you look at why, you know, Vegas' receivers, I'm gonna
give you the list here. Alex Bachman, Patriots legend, Kwan Baker,
Jack Beck Patriots legend Philip dor Set, which, by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
Is he the first Philip dor Set is still in
the league? Yes, it you know who else is still
in the league? And he was here yesterday? Remember Carl Davis. Yes,
he's on the Commanders. Yeah, I know, I knew that, Carl.
I knew that. I had no idea Philip doris Set.

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):
Still in the league. Is he the first ever NFL
player to catch a touchdown pass from his owner?

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
Wait?

Speaker 1 (01:34:44):
What is Philip dor Set the first ever NFL player
to catch a touchdown pass from his owner?

Speaker 2 (01:34:50):
Who owns him?

Speaker 1 (01:34:51):
The Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:34:52):
Oh, I see what you're I Actually he's not.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
Did Brady own the Raiders last year? When did that
become official?

Speaker 2 (01:35:01):
I think this year?

Speaker 1 (01:35:02):
Oh? Because then I forgot the band also doesn't own
the right I forgot the Okay, but you get the point. Yeah,
it's wild filter, said k Troon Jackson, Shedrick Jackson, Colin Johnson,
Tommy Mellech, Jakobe Myers, your guy, Dante Thornton who apparently
is having a good camp. Uh, Trey Tucker and Seth Williams,
so not exactly like Jacoby can play. Right If Jack

(01:35:26):
Betch is like a nice player, you put Gonzales on Jacoby,
Alex Austin can cover Jack Betch. Yeah, I'm not worried
about that, like you can put Carlton Davis on on
brock Bowers.

Speaker 2 (01:35:38):
Yeah. So I definitely with the to go back to
the safety thing. They've talked about wanting to be interchangeable
back there, but I do think that we might be
gravitating towards more traditional roles, like true free and strong
safety roles. And right now, Pepper's is definitely in the
driver's seat to be the strong safety and between Jalen

(01:35:59):
Hawkins and and I would say right now it's probably
Hawkins and Woodson competing and maybe a little bit of
Epps in that competition as well. They're competing for a
free safety role. And I could see a world where
Dugger is like a package situational player, like he's not
somebody that's on the field all the time like he
has been the last couple of years. And it'll be

(01:36:19):
interesting to see where they go from there. But maybe
it is Woodson at free Pepper's a strong Dugger as
like the third like the like a true Nickel dime safety, right,
if they want to go three safety, then he's the
third guy in especially in obvious past, Like I think
that's where you want to take dougger off the field

(01:36:40):
is when you know that they're going to pass the ball. Yeah,
if he's out there on first down to stop the
run and to play aggressively and do all that kind
of stuff, I think he can still be a productive
player for him. But I wonder if there's a world
where when we talk about true starters, like we're really
talking about Peppers with a true free safety like a
and Hawkins or Craig Woodson, And then that leaves the

(01:37:04):
whole conversation about you know who really is covering the
tight end because I don't. I don't think that that's
Pepper's strong suit either. I think Pepper's strong suit is
roaming and being in the box and blitzing and playing
at the second.

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
Hun prob best two safeties are both ideally box safety.

Speaker 2 (01:37:19):
Yeah, So we'll see where that all ends up. That's
a big question. The other part of the defense that
I wanted to get to, I've been really now, look
the commanders, you said it earlier the Commander's wide receiver
room sans Terry McLaurin is it's it's scary Terry, So
it's not a great room. That being said, I think

(01:37:42):
Alex Austin has really solidified himself as like a third
corner in this league. I think he can be that
player for them. And DJ James, I thought, had another
decent practice yesterday where he held up pretty well.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):
Yeah. I like DJ James, and corner is a position
where I'm always a little more concerned with depth than others,
especially with you know, Carlon davis injury history, and DJ
James isn't a guy one out there a lot. If
he has to play his third corner in a game
or two this year, like, I'm comfortable with that. I'm
gonna give you one other guy, by the way, he's
going to make the team that Yeah, literally nobody is
talking about and I kind of know why they're not
talking about it, but he he's gonna be my Oscar projection.

(01:38:16):
I'm telling you right now, he's going to make the team.
Trey Avery, Okay, he was with Tenant and Verraible in Tennessee.
He primarily played special teams and kind of was their
last rotational corner. It's exactly what Marcell's Dial did here
last year. And they signed Tray Avery or they claimed
him off waivers, which tells you that they like him
because they didn't wait for him to pass waivers. They
claimed him off waivers after Marcel's Dal got hurt. Trey

(01:38:37):
Avery's gonna make this team. I feel really strongly about this.
The corner room is going to be Austin, Avery, Davis, Gonzalez,
DJ James, Marcus Jones. I'd like to see Isaiah Bolden
get run. I feel like I've been saying that for
three years now, and at this point I'm maybe just
yelling into the void. Yeah, those six guys, that's their
corner room. I feel very strongly about that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:53):
Yeah, and I like it like I think it's it's
good on paper. Obviously, with a second team all pro
like Gonzala, who's on the upward trajectory, in Carlon Davis
at the top of the depth charter, it's easy to
say it's a it's a good room. But what I've
really been encouraged by is just how well DJ James
and Alex Austin have held up. Now it's the Patriots

(01:39:15):
receiver room, and this is the commander's receiver room. So
I'll put that caveat in there next week when the
Patriots go to Minnesota. I don't Justin Jefferson's been kind
of like hamstring slash on Justin Jefferson. I'll see you
week wanting it right now in training camp, So I
don't know if he's going to be out there next week.
But they also have Jordan Addison. Of course he's suspended,

(01:39:36):
but yeah, he can still practice for now. So that's
we're going up a level, is my point. So even
if it's just Addison and there's no Justin Jefferson, Like,
how does Austin and DJ James look against Jordan Addison,
who I think is a much better receiver, maybe not
better than Diggs, but like better than the receivers that
the Commanders certainly have outside of Terry McLaurin. So interesting

(01:40:00):
to see how those practices go for those depth corners.

Speaker 1 (01:40:02):
But yeah, and I mean the they also have you know,
Rondelle Moore's a the NFL receiver representative. Yeah, like they
have some it's a lot better even without even if
you want to take out Jefferson, I and Addison. It's
a better room, I think than what Washington has.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
Yeah, I would agree with that.

Speaker 1 (01:40:22):
Oh, I you know it's on Minnesota, Bryson nesbit nice.
So maybe when Member Bill used to do this like
they he'd always sign or claim off waivers one guy
that they faced and joint practices. Yeah, I don't want
to ask you any of the Commander's tackles look good
to you, Laramie Tunzel like that's gonna get on be
on the bubble.

Speaker 2 (01:40:40):
Maybe, you know, honestly, I thought Laramie Tunzel was the
only one that looked look decent, good player, good football.
So uh yeah, I'm interested to see you if we
want as we go up, you know, above weight class
as they say here with the wide receiver position, if
those depth corners still hold up. But you know, in
some ways and in terms of Gonzo like him pulling

(01:41:03):
a hand like that's not good, Like it's not good
for any of your anybody if you're good players to
get hurt. I'm not saying yeah, but in some respects
like having Alex Austen and DJ James get this much
exposure is.

Speaker 1 (01:41:13):
Not a valuable rep.

Speaker 2 (01:41:14):
Yeah, it's a valuable reps and there's no questions about
Christian Gonzalez's ability. He doesn't necessarily need the reps at
the same way. So to get an extended look to
evaluate Austin and DJ James has been a decent development.
And if you want to look at it like glass
half full of Gonzo getting hurt during camp, I'd say
that's the way to look at it. And I do

(01:41:36):
wonder DJ James because he's not the biggest corner. I
do wonder if there's like a slot flexibility in his future,
like maybe he could play more inside and have that
ability as well, because I still think that they want
to have a guy that they can put inside. It's
a little bit bigger. I don't think that that's Alex
Austen's game. I think Alex Austen's too like tight hipped

(01:41:59):
in like an upright move uh to play the slot.
So I feel like, you know, Marcus Jones right now
is going to play the slot. But I'm I'm on
an island with Marcus Jones on the PU panel. I'm
the only guy that still thinks that Marcus Jones is
a good corner, I guess, but I still think, yeah,
so Marcus Jones, But he just has to stay healthy
if they want to have a bigger body type there.

(01:42:19):
Marcel's dial obviously going out was really the front runner
for that role, I would say, until he got hurt.
So now maybe it's DJ James. Once Gonzales and Davis
start practicing again, maybe this it becomes DJ James. This
is not you know, I'm not there's not any intel,
don't aggregamy whatsoever. I just feel like Carlton Davis and
carl and Christian Zales, like you know that week in

(01:42:42):
between where it's like right after the third pre singing game,
but it's not week one yet.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
That yet, Labor Day weekend, that in between week.

Speaker 2 (01:42:50):
I think we're gonna see zero in seven out there
with you. Yeah, so I'm I I still don't have
any concern there. In terms of the line scrimmage on
the defense side of the ball. From practice yesterday, I
thought Barmore and Milton Williams showed well. I thought, you know,
those guys are gonna play, are They're gonna translate against
every team pretty much. I think I think they're just

(01:43:11):
gonna be good. I'm really optimistic about what we've seen
so far out of Harold Landry. I just I don't
know what it's going to mask A mask too. I
don't know if his past rush production or like his
win rate and all that fancy stuff is all going
to go back to where it was when Rabel was
in Tennessee. But I thought he was disruptive yesterday on

(01:43:33):
a handful of occasions. I think he just fits the scheme.
He knows the scheme. He's pretty good on as a
looper on some on those stunts or the tn s
on the end of the line. I thought he was
productive on some of those yesterday as well. He looks
like he's in great shape and came in ready to go.
I've been pleasantly not surprised, but just like it's been

(01:43:53):
good for Harold Landry. It's been good.

Speaker 1 (01:43:55):
Yeah, And that's kind of what we expect, right, it
was gonna be this. You know, he's not gonna be
Miles Garrett. He's not going to be this overwhelming pass rusher.
But his presence, you feel his presence, Yeah, he feels
presence when he's out there.

Speaker 2 (01:44:07):
Anybody else on defense that stood out to you.

Speaker 1 (01:44:11):
So just camp as a whole, because like I feel
like we even talked in a while. There's been a
lot of practices between the last time we did the show.
Now I am very pleasantly surprised about Kiros Tonga. I
Kiros a good day yesterday too, So this this, it
relates to yesterday. I thought kiris Tong was gonna be
the god who's gonna play twenty five thirty percent of
the time third and short, fourth and short goal line.
That was going to be it. He's got a little

(01:44:34):
movement to him, and he's not Aaron Donald, but like
there were a couple of times he created pressure as
a pass rusher. That's actually something I'm gonna be watching
for out there tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:44:44):
Night, Like I want to get to that in a second.

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
So just like can he play on first and ten?
Can he play on second and five? He's kind of
in between downs. Because I've said this, I'm a little
worried about the run defense as a whole. If Kiris
Tonga can be more than just a strict situational player,
that's gonna help him out a lot. So I've been
really surprised by him. He's been awesome, Like I've really
enjoyed watching him. He is he seems like a like
he seems like he gets it too, Like I like

(01:45:07):
when we talk to him, I like that he says, yes, he.

Speaker 2 (01:45:09):
Is a he's a strong dude, like he's a And
I think what's impressing me the most about him, to
your point, is like his bull rush and the pass
rush is legit, Like he can legitimately dent the pocket
with that level of bull rush, and he's he's an
angry rusher, like you can hear it when he like
collides with like a garter or center and he starts
to bowl rush like it's gonna be it's gonna be

(01:45:32):
a long way to Grandma's house. Like he's not gonna
blow by people, but he's gonna push the pocket and
he's gonna end up in the quarterback slap at some point.
I've been really pleasantly surprised, I'll use that phrase here,
like I've been pleasantly surprised at how uh noticeable he
has been in the pass rush, Like he's a legitimate
pocket pusher. And if he can do that, then he

(01:45:53):
does become more of a regular player because even on
first and ten, like he's out there to stop the run.
But when they play pass, like when they play action
or they drop back on first and ten. Well, he's
not a liability now because he can just dent the
pocket like that's that's the when a nose tackle becomes
like a more regular player. You know, Vince Wolfwork wasn't

(01:46:13):
blown by people either, but Vince Wolfwork would walk the
center right back into the quarterback slap and that's a
valuable as said as well, So I'm with you. That
was a good shout on Tanga. You said, uh, what
you were looking forward to a little bit there tomorrow night.
I want to preview the game a little bit here
at the end. What are you watching for? I know

(01:46:34):
that preseason the starters don't usually play much these days,
and that's a bummer for some fans. But I think
that there's a lot of interesting, you know, competitions that
are still shaking themselves out at the back end of
the roster that I'm going to be watching for, especially
backup tackles.

Speaker 1 (01:46:49):
You seem a little higher on Marcus Bryant than me.
But and even if you are, like, it's game action,
what does Marcus Bryant look like, especially on the left side,
Cole Strange, Ben Brown, that dynamic, It's a lot of
stuff that we talked about, Javon Baker, the back end
of that wide receiver room, a position we didn't talk about.
I'll give you this one linebacker. So splaining Gibbons Ellis
are going to make the team? Yep, those are kind

(01:47:11):
of sideline of sideline faster athletic guys. Are they going
to keep Marte Mapuh's a fourth one of those guys?
Is their room for a thumper? Is there a fourth guy?
And I don't think Joanna is gonna play because he's hurt.
But like again, splaining, Gibbons Ellis are all making the team.
Does a fourth linebacker make the team? If so? Who?
Monty Rice is a guy we probably should talk a

(01:47:31):
little more about. Played for Rabel and Tennessee had a
good spring, hasn't done as much this summer. Yeah, Like,
does somebody emerge in that conversation? So I then give yours?
Then I'll do kickers?

Speaker 2 (01:47:41):
Okay, good, good idea? So offensive line. I've been waiting
since May to watch Will Campbell on tape in a
Patriot Yeah and so, so just getting some film on
Will Campbell because I admit, even as a guy that
likes to watch the trenches during practice without being able
to review the tape of what exactly happened. There's a

(01:48:02):
lot of bodies and flying parts and things like that.
It's hard to really diagnose sometimes in the live viewing
of practice what exactly happened when there is a breakdown
on the offensive line. So watching Will Campbell studying his
film a little bit in a Patriot uniform, I'm really
looking forward to that. Jared Wilson too, But I think

(01:48:22):
all of us are sort of on Campbell watch at
this point, and I like that. I like that people
want to talk about the offensive line. I love that,
So I.

Speaker 1 (01:48:30):
Love that that line had to be historically bad to
get to this point. Yeah, but hey, we're here whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
We're here. So Will Campbell He's number one on my list.
Like when I will release like a after further review
film review after the game, probably on Saturday night, and
it might be the lead story, honestly, is how the
rookies and how especially Will Campbell looked in their preseason debut.
So I'm looking forward to seeing that with Campbell. I
think the other things that I'm looking forward are the

(01:48:56):
same as what you kind of laid out there. But
really the wide receiver you know, Baker, Chisholm, Polk, those
guys need to continue to point the arrow upward if
they're gonna make the team. Like if they don't really
need to keep six, right, like they don't need to
keep six, you need to make them need to keep six,
right if that makes sense, like they don't. You can

(01:49:18):
get a lot of teams carry six now, but you
can carry five and be good. So if they're gonna
carry six receivers, it's because Javon Baker just had such
a good summer that they don't want to cut bait
with him just yet, you know. Or Chisholm had a
great preseason and they won't and he had like this
Edelman breakout during the preseason and they don't want to
cut him just yet. So those receivers have got to

(01:49:40):
earn spots. Depth along the offensive line is obviously another
big one. You know, how does a cold strange look
Marcus Bryant, Caden Wallace if he plays in the game.
Those guys as well. I'm not looking out too much
on defense, to be honest with you. I feel like
they're defensively they kind of know who there, Like fifteen

(01:50:01):
guys are that are going to play a lot, but
we'll see maybe about you know those young corners in
Austin and DJ James. So you do your kicker minute.
We got three minutes to go, perfect amount of time.
I might have a I have a like a a
half baked take. So what's your You give yours.

Speaker 1 (01:50:20):
First, because mine's going to undo yours, my.

Speaker 2 (01:50:22):
Half bag take on the kicker thing. If we get
through the Minnesota game and Borgoalis is steady from what
we've seen over the last what I would say, like
a week and a half maybe from him, I think
it's over. I think it's over. You're not going to
cut a draft pick.

Speaker 1 (01:50:42):
Oh, I get to bring back my two kickers take.

Speaker 2 (01:50:45):
You're not going to cut the draft pick if it's
even and he's already it's probably even to maybe a
little bit of an edge towards Borgalis at this point.
And I just don't see a world unless Borgoalis falls
apart in the next couple of weeks. In the preseason
where Parker Romo.

Speaker 1 (01:51:00):
When do you remember the two kickers take? Yeah, I
was very proud.

Speaker 2 (01:51:03):
What was your actual kicker take?

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
So my actual kicker take is this. It has been
closed between the two of them. They've both been absolutely nails.
Borgals hasn't missed in like two weeks. H Parker Romo
finally missed his first kick yesterday, and I'm not kidding
he missed it by this much like they've both been
locked in. So I'm thinking about this right, and we're
missing half the story. When we talk about it. We
we use the field goals because they're easy, right, it's

(01:51:26):
good or it's not good. The field goals might not
be the deciding factor here. If they're both good, it's
gonna be the kick. It's gonna be the kickoffs. This
is so you It's gonna be a kickoffs and I'm waiting.

Speaker 2 (01:51:37):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:37):
Can't wait till we get to talk talk to Jeremy Springer, Yanks.
I want to ask them about this.

Speaker 2 (01:51:40):
I can't wait, Marian to talk to the special you
can't wait. Yeah, so sorry. Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:51:47):
Springer's talked about how he thinks there's going to be
more kickoff returns this year. They moved that touch back
up to the thirty five. Right. Team don't want to
deal with that, So that tells me the Patriots don't
want to deal with it. They want to put the
ball and play and cover, So you got to be able.
You can't be kicking the ball in the end zone. Yeah,
but you don't want to kick it so short that
you can't set up your return coverage. So follow you
need which kicker can work it if they're both hitting

(01:52:07):
every field goal, right, Okay, which kicker is better at kickoffs?
Which one's consistently getting the ball inside the five but
not putting it in the end zone. Now that's not
as black and white judging as field goals because even
if they put it in the side the five, there
is a play call on that we don't know. And Okay,
he put it inside, but it was on the right
sideline when it was supposed to be in the middle,
or he kicked it like this and he's supposed to
kick like that. Whatever, Right, But it might come down

(01:52:30):
to who's the better kickoff kicker, and again not knowing
the play calls, just looking at who's more consistently getting
the ball in that range where you want to get it.
I would say Borgoalis by a smidge in the kickoff
stuff we've seen them do in practice. Hopefully the Patriots
are scoring a lot, because I want to see a
lot of kickoffs, because I think that might be more
than anything else, which determines the kicker battle. That might

(01:52:50):
matter more than the field goals. If they're both going
to be this good.

Speaker 2 (01:52:52):
I just don't see a world and also.

Speaker 1 (01:52:54):
Sorry, I want with that the kickoff returner battle is
important too.

Speaker 2 (01:52:57):
We'll see that's smart night, So begals. You invested a
six round I'm picking the guy, and I just feel
like it would have to have been an app like
a Justin rhor Wasser esque train wreck for to cut
a sixth round pick. And the fact that Bergalis is
at least even with Parker Roman and probably maybe a
little bit better at this point than Parker Romo.

Speaker 1 (01:53:16):
Parco hadn't missed till Yes, that's kind of insane. He
was like twenty I think he ate his first twenty
three before he missed it. Just that's wild.

Speaker 2 (01:53:24):
It's hard for me to envision a world where they
cut the draft pick. It is, so that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:53:30):
I will sort of bring back my two kicker takes now,
don't there are not. I'm not saying they're going to
keep two kickers.

Speaker 2 (01:53:35):
You think they're gonna try even.

Speaker 1 (01:53:36):
Though I met fifty two players on my roster projection
right now. And I could do it if I wanted.
I could do it if I wanted. Yes, they could
maybe if a team's worried about the kicker situation, if
Parker Romo is still not missing in the preseason, can
they get when they get a seventh round pick for Nicktop,
can you do some sort of pick swap or something
and get a pick for John Parker Romo?

Speaker 2 (01:53:53):
So really quickly, and then we got to go. I
want to I want to unpack your your kickoff thing
a little bit because I think this is I actually
find it a tad a bit interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:54:01):
It is interesting and the play is interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:54:03):
So basically, the the best kick in the current rules
is to bounce it like inside the ten yard line,
but to like keep it in bounce.

Speaker 1 (01:54:16):
No, so the best thing you.

Speaker 2 (01:54:17):
Can do because he has to go in the landing zone.

Speaker 1 (01:54:20):
Right. So okay, so a touchback, there's two touchbacks now.

Speaker 2 (01:54:23):
Because it bounces into the end zone. It's the last
Touchbown's twenty.

Speaker 1 (01:54:26):
That's to the twenty. That's the old touchbacks. So that's
what you want to do, right, But are any teams
just gonna willingly let the ball bounce into the end
zone and start at the twenty. Maybe I don't think so.
If you don't trust yourself in this format to return
the ball to the twenty, I'm sorry, you suck.

Speaker 3 (01:54:43):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:54:43):
It's not that you don't trust it, but a lot
of a lot of coaches I you don't. It's not
so much about the return, it's about this ball security.
I think for a lot of coaches.

Speaker 1 (01:54:51):
If you don't trust yourself to hold onto the ball
and run twenty yards and risk that much field position.
Remember they're lining up on the thirty five. Yeah, right,
that's that's where the coverage team is.

Speaker 2 (01:55:01):
So so in your mind, the best where would you want? Ideally,
because you want the ball, you want to put the
ball in the landing zone, but not in the end zone.

Speaker 1 (01:55:13):
You can't come short. Short of the landing zone is
the forty.

Speaker 2 (01:55:15):
Right, But you don't want it to go in the end.

Speaker 1 (01:55:17):
You can't go directly the end zones. That's thirty five.
So this is what I need to ask Springer, because
I've heard both sides of the arguments on this. If
you kick it as deep as possible without it going
into the end zone, you have more time to develop
your coverage, play whatever you have drawn up, because there's
like stunts and twists and stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:55:33):
Oh yeah, no, they were pretty creative with it last year.

Speaker 1 (01:55:35):
But the flip side of that is if you kick
it to like the eighteen nineteen, well, now the other
team doesn't have time to set up their blocking, So
that might just be I might ask him and he'll say,
I can't give away that strategy, like that might be
a different thing team to team. I look at it
like a punt. I want to put it as close
to the goal line as possible as Also, then you're

(01:55:57):
pressuring them to catch it and not let it roll
into the end zone at the eighteen, Like it's not
gonna ll the end zone for the eighteen.

Speaker 2 (01:56:02):
But what I would say is the ideal and then
we got to go. But I we started a little late,
so it's okay. Yeah, what I would say is the ideal.
And the people that are listening to this.

Speaker 1 (01:56:11):
Right now, these are the ones.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
These are the diehards.

Speaker 1 (01:56:14):
We call these p ones. I if it would me, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56:17):
I would want to land it like right outside the
end zone. Yeah, and I'm putting it right on a
spot that Brennan's schooler is just sprinting to as part
of the coverage unit, and I am hoping that Brennan's
school is, like in Tennessee last year, is going to
come down and light the dude up.

Speaker 1 (01:56:37):
Well right like that, You have to.

Speaker 2 (01:56:38):
Remember the schooler can't move until the ball is caught, right, So,
but he's still got up over twenty miles an hour
in Tennessee, he.

Speaker 1 (01:56:44):
Did, but the guy's going to be gone by the time.
Schooler's got to go thirty five yards to get to
where that ball is, and he can't start running till
the guys already caught.

Speaker 2 (01:56:53):
No, I'm not saying he's going to get the ball.
I'm saying he's just going to be in the path
so that when the guy starts moving up the field,
you can get that collision. So then when you have
to do either that's it's to fear, feel position or
maybe even you make it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:07):
That makes sense, But that's hard because you can't kick it.
This is where I like when I said we don't
know exactly what the kickoff play is, we can't fully
judge it. You can't run that play if you're kicking
the ball in the middle of the field. Because now
the returner.

Speaker 2 (01:57:19):
Can go left right, you have to You've got to
pin him in the corner, which is hard, you.

Speaker 1 (01:57:23):
Know, goes out of bounds. Now you really blue, so
you're trying to really I kind of like it because
the old it's not back, but the old coffin corner
sort it back. If you're going to do that, ideally
of school, are in another guy and you kick in
the middle, and you vice that's what I would do.

Speaker 2 (01:57:36):
Okay, just I think I know the answer to this. Yeah,
you have to kick it off the tee.

Speaker 1 (01:57:42):
So somebody told me they changed that, and then I
don't know. I thought I saw them doing it it camp.
The other thing is like last year teams figured out
if you laid the ball down flat on the tee
instead of standing up. I want to make you go
get me one of those footballs to show it. Yeah,
like if you laid the ball flat on the tee,
you could put this weird spin on it, which now
that you don't need to kick it as far teams
willing to do. And then they said, no, it has

(01:58:02):
to be standing up on it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:03):
But you can't drop kick it.

Speaker 1 (01:58:05):
You can't. Well, you still do the drop kick but
that's a whole other thing.

Speaker 2 (01:58:08):
I know. But I'm saying, like, they can't put like
Bryce Barringer out there to literally punt it. It has
to be it's not a free kick like you have.

Speaker 1 (01:58:16):
You can't do a free kick. No, But there was
a thing where some teams were literally experimenting, do you
know what driver off the deck means? Yes, essentially that
they were just going to put the ball on the grass,
no tea and kick it because you could make it
spin a certain way and it made it really hard
to catch, and it just created a whole other thing
for the return team to worry about. And then the

(01:58:37):
league said, no, the ball has to be upright on
the tee. But then there was a whole conversation about okay,
well it has to be upright on the tee. What
if it's not on the tee, can you kick off
without a tea? And I don't remember where that conversation went.
That's another thing we have to ask Springer.

Speaker 2 (01:58:51):
Okay, so this this is the only show that you're
going to get ten minutes on the kickoffs. I promise
you that, like this is the only show in New
England that is going to talk about the kicks and
break down the kickoffs like we just did. So you're welcome.
I hope you enjoyed it. You're welcome. That was just
for you guys. There. So next week, a couple housekeeping
things here before we sign off. I am going to

(01:59:13):
Minnesota next week for the joint practices. We are going
to have a show. It's going to be Thursday, four
to six pm Eastern time because the Vikings practice at
noon Central time, so there's like time differences. I'm not
going to try to confuse you guys. It's math. It's hard.
But we're going to be on from four to six
Eastern time next Thursday, so we will have a show.

(01:59:35):
We will talk about both practices, so we'll have plenty
of things to talk about. I will which will be
all well and good and lots of fun. And so
then we'll see you guys. Then, thanks for watching, thanks
for listening, Thanks for listening to the special teams talk
as well. If you're still here with us, and we'll
see you guys next week.

Speaker 1 (01:59:51):
Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:59:53):
Hey, this is deuced. Thanks for tuning into the show.

Speaker 1 (01:59:56):
If you really want to help us, make sure you
like us wherever you get your podcasts, like Apple Podcast
US or Spotify. Also make sure you follow us on
the New England Patriots YouTube channel to see this show
and everything else that we do here at the Patriots.
Thanks a lot,

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