Patriots Catch-22 9/24: 3 Up/Down vs. Steelers, Drake Maye Breakdown, Panthers Preview

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
This is the Patriots Catch twenty two podcasts with Evan
Lazar and Alex Barth.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Blazarre from Lazarren Hello, everybody nailed it. Joins has always
by our Gaplin kid gait no risk. Here is Evan
Lazar and Alex.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Bars Morgan moses though, and there was a lot of
talk about his age when they signed him. He plays
and he'll tough through it and he'll play hurt. He
didn't miss after his rookie year. He didn't miss a
game until twenty twenty three, and then he's missed three
games each the last two years. It's pretty solid for
a tackle to play twenty eight games too over the
span of two years. He hopes this isn't one of

(00:43):
the games. You don't want him to miss any games,
but this especially, you hope is in a game that
he misses. But right, he's not somebody I worry about
being like, I don't want to risk it this week. No.
I think if he can go, he'll go. If he
can get out there on Sunday. He seems like the
kind of guy that will get out there on Sunday.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
All right, Well, I was pretty surprised that he wasn't
even on the injury on Yeah, he played pretty well
against t J. Watt. Well, get to all of that.
But it's Evan Lazard, It's Alex Barth, It's Alex behind
the glass. Patriots Catch twenty two with you for the
next couple of hours here breaking down the loss of
the Steelers, breaking down the game against the Carolina Panthers

(01:21):
on Sunday. So a lot to talk about in patriot
Land here for the next couple of hours, next couple
of days, in the lead up to this game on Sunday,
Week four. Already we're moving. We're moving a little bit now.
So here we go, and I want to start with
an opening take, and then I want to I wanted
to do this segment at the beginning of the season

(01:42):
and it totally escaped me. So we're going to do
the good, the bad, and the crap that gets you beat.
I don't think we're allowed to swear or something. I'm
going to say crap or stuff stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Just say stuff. It sounds closer.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
So the stuff that gets you beat, and those are
the three buckets that Mike Rabel breaks down games into
the team. So we're going to do our version of
that here on the show probably doesn't really work if
they win. So maybe this is something that we go.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
I mean, no, we could have absolutely done last week
with Miami, but I think they totally could. Stuff with Miami.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Would have gotten you beat. Didn't get you beat.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
It almost did because they won't. But here's this thing.
Didn't lose, right, But here's this thing is it's it's
buckets and it's it's limiting. You can do things that
will get you beat and still like as long as
it's outweighed by the other stuff you could.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Do the bad. I don't think you can consistently do
the things that get you not consistently.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
But we'll get we'll get to No, I think I
think Miami game is the perfect examples.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Get to bet, we'll get to it. I think the
the opening take that I wanted to give, and then
we're going to get to that exercise here in a second.
I understand completely, Alex that people are done with the
moral victories. They don't want any more of moral victories.
They want to see results. And I totally feel that

(03:07):
we have watched really three years of bad football in
this region, going back to twenty twenty two, and there
were times in twenty twenty two where it was okay,
But let's face it, it's really been three full seasons
of bad football, and it's just the moral victories are
getting hollow, like they're getting old, Like we want to

(03:27):
see real progression, and I get that. But at the
same time, and you know, as we start to segue
here into the good, because I want to start on
a positive note, we start to segue into the good here.
At the same time, there is a lot of good
of what they did in this game on Sunday that
gets completely wiped out by the five turnovers. If they

(03:49):
don't turn the ball over five times in this game,
I truly feel like they probably win this game going away,
Like I think they might have won this game by
double digits if they don't turn it over five times.
That that being said, like I understand people don't like
the moral victories, but I would not come here and
tell you guys that the film, and I'm specifically talking

(04:11):
about the offense. I wouldn't tell you that the offense
is encouraging if it wasn't encouraging, Like after Week one,
I was not telling you that the offense was encouraging.
These last two weeks offensively has been a lot better,
like some really good football and good scheme and good
execution on the field offensively. That has me overall, big

(04:33):
picture encouraged about the team. And I know that they
need to win some games, and I know it's getting old,
but if they play offense like this moving forward, and
of course without the turnovers, they play offense like this
moving forward, they are going to start scoring some points.
They're gonna start scoring and of course if you score,
then you win and all that good stuff.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
So let me let me recharacterize it. You don't you
want to say it's not a moral victory. Fine, it's both.
It's an encouraging game and a frustrating game at the
same time, which it can be hard to kind of,
you know, how do you compartmentalize that because you're frustrated
that they lost first and foremost, But they did a

(05:15):
lot of good things in that game, and not just
good things. They did things that they haven't done. They
did things that we've been waiting to see them to do,
and that's encouraging. And then you just get even more
frustrated because they did all that and I still can't
enjoy it because they lost so.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
It's like.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Everybody has a right to feel frustrated after that. I
think you can be both frustrated and encouraged. And I
know that kind of sounds a little weird, and it's
funny to talk about it this way because we have
this argument mainly off the air in different contexts all
the time. That's basically, how do you weigh what looks

(05:53):
good on tape versus the ultimate results. You draw up
a bunch of fun look and plays, but you'll lose
twenty eight nothing. You know, you would be inclined to
enjoy that, whereas I would say, no, that's not a
well done game because you lost. This might kind of
be the middle ground of that, where it's ultimately not

(06:14):
the result you want. It's ultimately not a successful game.
In my mind, I would not call that game a
success no, because they lost it. But I don't know.
This sounds way too simplistic for this show, But you're
not going to turn the ball over five times every game.
You're just not going to do that. And a lot
of the things they did around it were winning football.

(06:36):
So it's just and we're supposed to do the deeper
dive on the show now, way we will, but like,
so I when I sit down with David Andrews on Monday,
the first thing he says is, we could do this
show in thirty seconds. Don't turn the ball over five times.
Like that's the take. That's obviously the big take coming
away from the show. But they did so much around
it that you like, I'll give you a stat of

(06:57):
And so I decide to have some after the game
on Pro Football Reference, as I'm one to do, and
all right, how many limits can I put in this thing?
So teams that and I some of these are under
what the Patriots did, But I was trying to just
use kind of round numbers here. Outgain the opponent by
at least one hundred and fifty yards, out, snap the

(07:19):
opponent by at least twenty plays on offense, Convert at
least forty five percent of your third downs, at least
seventy five percent of your fourth downs. Punt one or
fewer times. Yeah, that's a pretty good you do all that,
You had a pretty good game, right right? Teams that
did that since the merger thirty seven and two and
now thirty seven and three with the Patriots, and just

(07:41):
the odd thing I'll throw in there because it's weird.
The last such game of that was in twenty twelve
was Cowboys Ravens. The Cowboys lost. The last such game
that that was a loss. The Cowboys somehow only turned
the ball over once in that game and lost despite
all that. But the point being, like, you play that
game most of the time, you're gonna win. And obviously
there are things they can do to limit the turnovers,

(08:02):
but you're just if they're turning the ball over five times,
there's such bit the indicators would be there, like they're
not that team, right, We just don't believe they're not
gonna be a team that's like has the fewer turnovers
in the league. They're probably gonna have more than the
average team, but man, you're just not gonna turn the
ball over five times a game. And the things they

(08:22):
did around that on both sides of the ball, we're
very encouraging.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Okay, So that's a good way to kind of segue here,
because we're gonna get to the turnovers and the crap
that gets you beat, right, We're gonna get there. Don't
worry people, we're gonna talk about it. But with the good.
I want to start with the good I think the
most encouraging thing from a good standpoint, and I guess
these things got kind of go hand in hand, but

(08:46):
the overall offensive scheme from Josh McDaniels, yeah, and game
planning over the last two weeks, coupled with how good
I think Drake may looks on the whole through the
last two games, call it. You know, I don't know
if it was as good on either front. In the
Raiders game, it wasn't, But over the last couple of weeks,

(09:07):
I've just been extremely encouraged by what Josh McDaniels has
started to put together scheme wise. The things that really
stand out to me. Number one, the under centered mechanics
and their ability to move the pocket has really paid
dividends for them and has really settled Drake down into

(09:28):
some of these games. I would say, you know, last
week against the Steelers, that fifteen yard boot run that
he had in the second quarter that kind of got
them going and that got him started. In this game,
they're right around ten percent of the time that they
moved the pocket design rollouts at this point. That's tenth
highest in the league, but it's right up there with

(09:51):
the Niners. The Vikings, the Rams. The Packers like teams
that move the pocket on a regular basis, So they're
moving the pocket on these bootleg plays about as often
as all these West Coast Shanahan style teams are doing
at this point. That's catering to your quarterbacks. That's about Drake.
That's about getting his mobility him out into space and

(10:14):
cutting the field in half and using his legs as
an advantage against the defense. That that's catering to your quarterback.
The other thing that you know me, I'm big on this.
Their motion rate has increased exponentially over the last couple
of weeks. They were the lowest motion team in the
league in Week one at around seventeen percent. The last

(10:36):
two weeks are up at sixty three percent in the
motion rate, so they've really flipped that. They've gotten much
more motion heavy. They haven't been as stagnant offensively pre snapped.
They're motioning at the snap a little bit more. They're
shifting more before the ball is snapped as well, so
they're doing a lot more window dressing, and they're dressing

(10:57):
up plays more and they're scheming receiver open a lot more.
As a result. This film against Pittsburgh, and I would
say the same thing about the film against the Dolphins.
There's open receivers all over the place on this film. Like,
they really did a nice job in this game of
getting guys open and scheming guys open, and McDaniels has
done an awesome job of just using the weapons that

(11:20):
they do have, because, let's face it, their receiver corp,
you know, it's still not there yet. They still don't
really have a number one guy. They still don't really
have a field stretcher that's vertically making the defense respect
them vertically. And Josh McDaniels, with running backs, tight ends
and like a little bit of receiver production, is basically

(11:43):
milking every last ounce of leverage against the defense that
he can possibly find. Like they are really running this
offense through the backs and the tight ends. And the
one formation that I think really consistently points to that
is that split back formation where they have one of
the tight ends and a running back next to Drake
and the shotgun. They ran that formation about a dozen

(12:06):
times on Sunday, and they got some really big plays
out of it, you know, eighteen yard wheel route to
Hunter Henry Hunter Henry's second touchdown on the fourth and
two play came out of twelve personnel out of shotgun
with the Austin Hooper with him in the backfield. There
was another fifteen yard completion out of that, and just
all the different possibilities that you can scheme up out

(12:26):
of that one formation with Drake and the gun and
the two guys next to him, one tight end, one
running back, and then of course two tight ends on
the field.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Total.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
You know, how are team's going to match that. Are
they going to match it in base and then you
have safeties and linebackers covering tight ends and receivers and
you can win those matchups. Or are they going to
cover it in nickel and maybe you can run the
ball against their lighter nickel packages. That's the chess match
that they're having right now with the posing defenses. That
all starts with formation and personnel. So that's really all

(12:56):
McDaniels like that. That's a schematic thing from Josh McDaniel's
and I just look at what they're doing now and
the only I love it, The only hesitation that I
have about it is weeks you know eight through seventeen,
our team's going to start to figure them out because
they don't. Do they have I guess a better way

(13:16):
to put it. Do they have an off speed pitch? Like,
do they have a change up? Do they have a
secondary pitch that once a teams start to see what
they're doing out of twelve personnel and the base plays
that they're running out of twelve personnel? Do they now
have complimentary plays built off of those plays to kind
of protect the base stuff because the base stuff is

(13:38):
really good. But these decordinators are really smart and they're
going to figure it out eventually.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
And that's something Josh has always been great at is
his offense does not look the same in September as
it doesn't in December. Never has, and you know, I'm
not gonna say never will We'll see, But like, isn't
that where you start to get into you're running some
of the same stuff, but you're running it with different
players so it looks differently. Right, So let's say you're
running out of twelve and you have Keisehan Boody and

(14:05):
Mac Collins. Is your two receivers? Right, you run the
same play, but it's Stephan Diggs and Kyle Williams is
the two Like you inherently have to defend that differently.
So maybe that's the change up because there are still
some guys still haven't seen a ton from Kyle Williams.

(14:25):
I still think there's more they can do with Stefan.
He's been out there a lot, but I still think
there's some untapped there and they're probably trying to let
him get his legs back under him after the injury
last year. Travon Henderson will get Travan Henderson. Travon Henderson
has been involved a lot, but I think he can
be involved very differently, So there's that element of it.
Maybe that's the change up, is just the personnel groupings

(14:48):
as much as it is the schematic stuff.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, and they've already they already kind of did some
different things like the wheel route to Hunter Henry is
Henry in the backfield, rurning the wheel, the touchdown to
Hunter Henry on fourth down later on the game, it
was Hooper that was in the backfield and it was
Henry that was the in line tight end. So they've
already started to do some different things in terms of
just where guys are in those formations. But when you again,

(15:11):
like getting back to catering this thing to Drake May.
That is the under center in the boots and the
moving pockets, the shotgun you know, split back stuff, the motion,
the window dressing. Like this was not stuff that Josh
McDaniels was doing a ton in his past stops, like
whether it was here with Brady and mac Jones or

(15:33):
in Vegas with the Raiders. So like when I hear things,
you know, not to get like soapboxy here for a second,
but like when I hear things like, oh, this is
the Josh McDaniels offense, Like this isn't the Josh McDaniels offense,
Like this does not look to me the last two
weeks like the Josh McDaniels offense. And this isn't to
like bring up some like divide in there where like

(15:53):
you know there's West Coast guys, and that's not where
I'm going. I'm not going to your station, No, I'm
going to McDaniels has adapted and changed these scheme and
his system to fit Drake May.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
This is what we talked about when they hired it,
when everybody was freaking out about, oh, it's going to
be too much, and they asked Brady do all it.
What did we say, Yeah, he's it's a limited sample size,
but he's generally done a good job of taking what
he because his core concepts are still there. Like the
core concept is dropping.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
The drop back game is similar, right, the run game
and the i'd say the run game and and some
of the drop back game is pretty different, but like
you still see you know, their traditional drop back game
where they're running host Duke and.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
I would also just say, and the way he's he's
using the run in the past and the play action
to play off each other and all of that, some
of the more meta stuff is the same. Because this
is what he did it for Cam Newton. He did
it for Mac Jones, like this was my take of time.
He tailored the offense to Mac Jones to a fault
to a fault to him because he got this kind
of screen merchant label. And then they what happened the

(16:55):
next year with Mac Jones throwing the ball down the field,
Like that's me what they needed to do. So this
is this is what Josh McDaniels does.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
I mean, I'm sorry, I just under center speed option
on fourth and one, like I haven't seen Josh McDaniels
run that with Mac Jones or Tom Brady like that
that he wasn't going to run it. Well, I know,
but I'm just saying like it's this is this is
your quarters, right he ran with Cam. I think I
don't know about number fourth and one, but I don't
about understand they ran.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
I remember they ran one or two old school options
that year. Maybe I don't think it might not have
been fourth and one, but they ran it.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
I don't remember them. But maybe the point being is
just like this is catering to your quarterback. Yeah, and
when Week one, when I had all that frustration is
because they weren't doing these types of things. Now I'm
seeing them do these types of things. Some of the
different gun you know, split back stuff really has me excited,
like they they missed it. But like you know, they

(17:51):
have a spinner series now where Drake may kind of
spins around on the play action fake from the gun,
which is really popular nowadays. You know the Bills, the Ravens,
like teams like that that have a lot of the Eagles,
a lot of gun in their offense, like a lot
of shotgun. Are you doing what's called a spinner fake
where like the quarterback literally spins and turns his back

(18:14):
to the defense and the gun and spins all you know,
does a one to eighty and comes back around. And
they had you know, Pop Douglas wide open in the
flat on one of those spinner plays, and like when
you just look at the play concept itself, it's just
it's great design. Like they have the running back on
the wheel, and they have popa you know, on the
swing in the flat. Then they have Matt Collins running

(18:35):
like a deep incut in the middle of the field,
and you just look at all the different openings of
where this could present open receivers. They covered the wheel
pretty well, but Matt Collins is open in the middle
of the field and Pop was wide open in the flat,
and they just kind of couldn't connect, which we'll get
to here as well. But all these different schematic things,
it's like you said, you know, a few minutes ago

(18:57):
about me, like this is the stuff that gets me
hot and bothered. Right now, they only scored fourteen.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Points, so now let's so now it's going to translate
to winning the next time.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
But this is the kind of stuff that gets me
hot and bothered because when you when you get process
oriented and you're not just thinking closed mindedly about the
results and your process oriented. Like if you keep doing
these types of things, then this is going to lead
to good offense and this is going to lead to
more points. They just need to get Petter to Hatter

(19:26):
to like they need to execute better, Like they need
to get better at what they're doing. The other good
thing that I came out of this game that I
wanted to talk about. And I know that this is
a little like how is the play missus Lincoln, I
get it, but like Drake May sands the turnovers like
Drake May right now, and I get that there's also
a small sample slize slash strength to schedule element to

(19:49):
this as well. But from an efficiency standpoint, he's like
a top ten quarterback in the league right now, which
I don't care if they're playing you know, the Raiders,
Dolphins and Stea Deelers, they were not being this good,
you know, top ten efficiency in the last couple of years.
Like they're that's still a huge improvement from where.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
They were, just qualifier on all of it, Like, yeah,
it's not be you know, having good games against these
lesser teams is not the end goal. But they weren't
even doing this. So it's a step forward, and it's
not all gonna happen at once. You got to take
these step forwards. Also, just relatively speaking, there's a lot
of bad teams in the NFL. So maybe not everybody's
played the Ravens, Steelers and Dolphins, but who's played like

(20:33):
the I don't know any of the like the NFC
South's playing each other. That division sucks.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, so that's sort of my It was like, you know,
it goes back to Rabeles thing like can you take
advantage of bad football? And that baseline of being able
to take advantage of bad football that probably beats like
ten out of the thirty two teams in the league
every week just by not being as bad as the
other team. And the last two years offensively, they weren't

(21:01):
even good enough to take advantage of bad football. Now
I'm starting to see Drake May be good enough to
do that and good enough to elevate things. You know,
we can go individual throw, you can go big picture
in terms of his efficiency and all the metrics. Just
love Drake May. Right now, he's eighth in EPA per play,
He's third in EPA per play in obvious passing situations.

(21:22):
It's Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Drake may like that. That's
what we're talking about here, and obvious you know, expected
pass situations. He's first in the league in late down EPA,
third and fourth down, So he is the best third
and fourth down quarterback in the NFL through three weeks.
Like that doesn't just happen by accident. That's not strength

(21:43):
to schedule, that's not opponent based. Like that is the
quarterback making plays.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
He's played, can so can I can we do this game?
He's played five really good halves of football and six
halves Yeah of the season, Okay, I'll give you that.
Like he's been it's because my whole thing with him,
you know, is consistency. Yeah, outside of that second half
of the Raiders, I think it's been because I don't
think those numbers are inflated by one specific game or

(22:09):
one specific drive, Like I think for the most part,
he's just kind of been this guy's just that second
half against the Raiders. Yeah, besides that, he's been pretty consistent,
which is encouraging.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, you know, the throws that stood out to me,
I'm sure similar to everybody else. You know, the deep
dig to Booty on third down was a really good throw.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Got to get they got to work that in more.
That was role in the first half of the Raiders game.
We haven't really seen it since.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, really good I manipulation there to look off the
zone and then come back to the middle of the
field there. And that's not that's not a peace shooter
throw either, Like you have to be able to you
have to have some ability to drive the football, like
that's a fifteen to twenty yard zone window that you're
driving the ball into. The wheel route to Hunter Henry
is just a perfect like that's a touch throw, you know,

(22:53):
or he just kind of throws it with a great
touch and just enough air or you know, air under
it to get it there before the same safety, but
just enough touch to kind of get it over the
linebacker there.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Just a really perfect The one player to Henry was that,
I think to set up at the end of the half.
Yet one up the scene to Henry, not the touchdown.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, Will, That's what I'm talking about. And then he
also had five runs for first downs in this game,
you know, So you're just seeing all of it, like
you're seeing the scrambling ability. You're seeing the arm talent
and the ability from the pocket. I know that you
can't just wipe away all the turnovers, and we're going
to get to the turnovers, but overall, I just think

(23:35):
we need to look at this as like a developmental
thing with Drake May and it's not going to be
linear where every play is going to be perfect. And
if you look at it from the totality of the
three games that he has played, you know, there's really
no metric that you can look at that doesn't call
him like a top fifteen top tennis quarterback in the
NFL through three weeks. So that's extremely encouraging. The last

(23:58):
thing here on the good side, and then we'll get
to some of the not so good. I thought they
ingested really well defensively in this game. Didn't think they
started too hot, which we'll get to, but they after
the first two drives, especially after that opening drive, they
adjusted pretty quickly to the run game for the Steelers,
and they really shut down the run game from that

(24:20):
point on in that game, and I think the in
game adjustments defensively it's taken maybe a little bit longer
in other games. This one was pretty quick, like this
right around that after that second drive by the Steelers,
second touchdown drive, they kind of clamped down from there.
But I also just really liked and I you know,
this will kind of come back up later, like the
accountability on defense and it's no shot at these two guys,

(24:43):
but benching Christian Ellis and Alex Austin and just saying
this is not good enough and putting other guys out
there and giving you know, Gibbons and Charles Woods an opportunity.
I just like that, like at some point they have
to start taking the guys that are playing bad football
off the field, Like you can't just keep bond doing
the same thing, which I think the last couple of
Stabs might not have had the the depth on the

(25:06):
roster to like have something different to go to. But
I also didn't really feel like they were really very
accountable in that regard. So in game adjustments for the
defense I thought were good. And then you, I mean,
you hold the I keep saying the Packers because of Rodgers,
you hold the Steelers to it. I think it was
one first down on five possessions in the middle quarters,

(25:27):
Like that's.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Pretty high yards allowed in the third quarter.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
I think it was like one, wasn't it one? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (25:33):
I mean that's that's just good football.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah, And I know the Steelers aren't who they were
and Rodgers and who they were, but it's a lot
of bad teams to get more than one yard in
the third quarter.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, So that was the goods for me. If there's
anything off the top of your head you wanted, Dad,
then we can add to the goods if you want.
But I feel like those were the no you hit
on a lot of it.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Just adjusting defensively and.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, okay, let's go to the bads.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Is this up and downs? Were we going to do
that separately?

Speaker 2 (26:01):
But doing that separately? Okay, this is big picture. I'm
not other than Drake. I'm trying not to be two
players specific Well, yes, because Drake is a big picture
at the end of the day, the bads. So let's
start here defensively. I did not like this game plan
for them defensively, and they got down fourteen to nothing

(26:22):
kind of as a result of the game plan. They
came out into high safety. And not only did they
come out into high safety, they came out in three
Quarner Nickel, So they came out in basically past personnel. Defensively,
they had the two high safeties up top, which you
do to keep a lid on the defense right to
avoid any big plays over your head. And then obviously
with the three corners out there and five defensive backs total,

(26:46):
you're lighter in the box there with the nickel defender,
you know, basically playing in the box. And the Steelers
in Jalen Warren just ran right down their throats, especially
on the opening drive. You know, six out of the
eight plays were run plays. They ran it right down
to the Patriots throats. Now, the Patriots adjusted, that was
on the good, right. I talked about that, but I
didn't really love how they came out in this game.

(27:07):
And when you come out with a bad plan on defense,
you go down fourteen to nothing, and that's just not
a way to live in the NFL. You can't be
putting yourself in fourteen nothing holes on a consistent basis
and expect to win a lot of those games. So
this is now i'd say two and a half weeks
of me not loving their plan on defense. The opener

(27:27):
against the Raiders, they come out and they just blitzed,
you know, Smith all over the place, which I thought
was kind of silly, like they were kind of diabolical,
and how much they blitzed in that game and it
and it burned them a couple of times, you know,
in big, big plays. And this week, you know, this
isn't prime Aaron Rodgers where you know he's throwing deep
and he's slinging in, he's airing it out all over

(27:48):
the place, like that's not what he does anymore. This
is a check down merchant Aaron Rodgers with the run
game like that, that's really what the Steelers offense is.
And it's surprised to me that they can out in
those two high safeties and got run on a little
bit in this game. Now they cleaned it up and
they got they got the run stopped.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
But overall, like.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
I said, the game plans defensively, I think need to
be a little bit better to start these games, because
there is no reason for them to give up that
kind of uh you know, rushing production in the first quarter,
like it was just too much.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Despite that, then they allowed twenty one points and just
over two hundred yards. Like I'm with you on like
they need to be better defensively to start but I
just have trouble nitpicking the defense in this game they play,
even with the first two drives, that was a winning
effort defensively. That was one of the better games they
played defensively. Yeah, if you're saying about the game plan,
I get we're saying about theme.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
They go down fourteen to nothing, like regardless of it.
Like this is now two out of the three weeks too.
I believe that they've given up an opening drive touchdown
because they did the same thing against the Raiders, or
the Raiders went right down the field and scored to
start the game. Like if you want, I'm not saying
it's it's the bad. It's not the stuff to get
to beat. But you can't be in holes all the time,
like you can't be playing from behind all.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
They need to start games better. I just I don't know.
They've had some rough defensive look at what happened last
weekends too. I just thought this. I know we're doing
the good the bad and what gets you beat and
all that. I think it's still some mistackles we're gonna get.
We can get into the mistackles. There's some context there.
The biggest thing for me, I would say with the
defense is Look, some of those penalties were pretty ticky tack.

(29:30):
I have kind of a reference. I guess I'll squeeze
it in now. Some of those penalties were pretty ticky tack.
Carl Cheffer's crew through more flags than any last season. Yeah,
like not Carl Cheffer's Cleat Blakeman. Sorry, I've done that
like two or three times this week. Cleete Blakeman's crew
through more flags than any last year. And you know
that going in, and the coaches talk about that going in.

(29:50):
We abilities do that all the time as a crew.
We can get away with a little more, as a
crew can get away with little less. They break it
down by penalty, right, So yeah, some of those were
ticky tack. I think PI late on Carlton and Carlton
Davis was ridiculous, But you kind of got to know
going in, hey, I probably can't get away with as
much as usual. And there were some bad calls the
other way too, Like I didn't think that PI call

(30:11):
in Keshan Boodie was a good call, right, they just
did the whole un catchable part of PI was ripped
out of the rollbook this week. But like, I don't
know I like an aggressive defense. I think there were
times where it was maybe like kind of know the
situation and hey, this is who the crew is and
this is how they've been calling it to this point,
and they weren't good calls. But I think sometimes you

(30:33):
got to play that way.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah. No, I thought both calls on Alex Austin were legit.
Now the Carlon Davis DPI, I'm with you, was not
DPI in my mind, but I thought.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Both calls it was a hold if anything.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, I just again, it's it's the bad it's not
getting them beat that the defense isn't starting great in
some of these games. And if you want to do
the whole Belichick thing where you kind of let the
game declare and you figure out what they're doing and
then you settle down defensively, that's all well and good
if you have Tom Brady on the other side to
keep up until the defense settles down, right. If you're

(31:07):
a team like this Patriots team, I think starting fast
is important for this group because they are not going
to necessarily be able to dig themselves out of fourteen
point deficits, especially against teams that are better than the Steelers,
that are going to keep scoring, you know, once they've
put up fourteen points, Like they're not going to hold
you know, the Buffalo Bills to two shutout quarters like

(31:29):
the Patriots did against the Steelers on Sunday. You might
hold the Carolina Panthers to two shutout quarters. But you
get my point. So I just I think defensively the
game plans. I didn't mind the game plan as much
against Tua. I know the production against Tua was high
in those first three quarters for Tua, but they played
two high deep safeties and they made him hit whole
shots and things like that. On the side, like that's

(31:50):
what you're gonna do against Tua. Like, could they have
done it a little bit better, Yeah, they definitely could
have done it a little bit better, but that's sort
of that's the book, Like that's that's what everybody does
against Tua. So you just didn't necessarily execute it at
a high level. I didn't really get blitzing Geno Smith,
and I don't really get why they were so worried
about Aaron Rodgers throwing deep on them in this game

(32:12):
to start this game. The other thing that you mentioned
was the mistackles. So I want to unpack this a
little bit because I did some digging in the next
Gen stats world on some of these mistackles.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
So I actually think I grew with the take you're
about to get.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
So they had fourteen miss tackles last week, which is
too high. That's a very high number. Less than it was,
but it's high. Fourteen miss tackles. Their mistackle rate through
three games is the third highest in the NFL right now,
it's seventeen point eight percent. So they are missing tackles
at the third highest rate in the league. That is
too high. Now, Vrabel actually was the first one to

(32:47):
bring this up, and we'll get to some of this
stuff later, maybe because it excites me, and I know
it probably bothers you. He knows the stats and he
hasn't had the ready, which I love. So next Gen
tracks how many yards opponents get after miss tackles meets
yards after contact essentially, yeah, uh, after miss tackles. So

(33:09):
right now, the Patriots are giving up three point one
yards after a mistackle per mistackle. All right, that's the
lowest rate in the NFL. So on the one hand,
they're missing a lot of tackles. That's no bueno. Yep,
But on the other hand, when they do misstackles, they're
swarming to the football and it's not really burning them,

(33:30):
like they're not giving up the you know, they miss
a tackle and then they're giving up a fifty yard
run because they missed the tackle, because they are getting
at football.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Here's what I'm wondering. Do you have the breakdown on
that number by week?

Speaker 2 (33:43):
I do, I mean not off the top of I
didn't write it down, but I could get.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
That's something we're in this game. I'm sorry if you
still more to your point, but I just didn't know.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
I mean, that's basically the pinkay.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
So here's the thing. If you can find the breakdown
by week, I could. I actually think that that's somewhere
where I thought they improved in this game. I thought
the last two games when they missed tackles it created
more yardage in this game, like the one play that
stands out to me. It was in the fourth quarter,
Steels are trying to run out the clock. Kiris Tonga

(34:13):
shoots in the backfield, blows up a run play and
he I think it's Joshua Farmer, who's with him? I
keep saying this on the air and then forgetting who
it is and going back and looking and then forgetting again.
I think it's Joshua Farmer who's in there with him,
or some other tackles in there with him. Maybe it
was Durden, And like Tonga can clearly see that he's
not the only one who got back there. And he

(34:33):
goes for a big hit, and he goes to the
ball and he tries to make an explosive play defensively,
he ultimately misses the tackle, but Durden and I think somebody,
I think the splaying or somebody else got in there
and cleaned it up. And Jalen Warren got no extra
yards off the miss tackle. I think even might have
lost the yard relatively speaking. That's a coaching point for
a lot of teams. Like, if you know the football right,

(34:53):
if you know you have help around you, try to
make a play. If you're the first guy in make
a play, teamates will clean it up. Don't do that
in the open field where there's nobody around you to help.
But if you're swarming and you know you're gonna be
the first guy and swarm, make a play, and if
they're missing tackles that way, that doesn't bother me like, yeah,

(35:13):
you'd rather the first guy bring them down, but if
there's no extra yardage and over the course of the
season it produces a couple of fumbles, I'm all for it.
It felt like, and they were still some of those
open field miss tackles in this game. Chrishnell has had
a bad one and those are the kind of plays
that I thought burned them the last couple of weeks
where there was a mistackle and they weren't swarming the
ball and guys were gonnain.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Those missed one right in the whole on outside zone
and in the run game to eleven yards.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
So then this last game was the highest missed after
a mistackle total out of any of the mistackles.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
That's obviously not what you want. Yeah, but if you're
missing tackles because you're just swarming to the ball, the
first guy is trying to make a play, which is
more what I thought they didn't more against the Steelers, Right. Yeah, again,
you don't want to be missing the tackles at all,
but that's not really that detrimental.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
One hundred and eight yards over the course of three
games is still you know, thirty five yards game or whatever.
That math is like, that's that's thirty five yards you'd
like to have back in an ideal world. But to
your point, if they're swarming to the ball, if they're
getting multiple hats there, and then I think the play
that I posted that unfortunately they didn't recover the fumble. Yeah,
but Kyle Dugger, they run, you know, the Steelers run

(36:23):
a boot and they slide John new Smith underneath the
formation and across the field, and Kyle Duggar wins the
foot race to the edge against John new Smith and
makes him cut back into the middle of the field,
and Harold Landry clocks him from the side and forces
a fumble. Like that's kind of what you're talking about.
Of Like, Dugger's job on that play is just to
make sure that John who doesn't get the edge, and

(36:46):
he kind of does his job, and then Landry comes
in and cleans up. And one of the big things
with Rabel and one of his non negotiables is effort
and finish. And I think this defense is playing with
excellent effort and finish. And I think that that's where
that number speaks to in terms of the yards after
miss tackles or yards after contact that they're limiting. That's
all effort and finish. That's eleven guys flying to the

(37:08):
football to make the you know, plays on the ball,
whether you make the first tackle or not. So the
mistackles itself is in the bad category, but I do
think that the context is important of how much is
it really burning them? And the one play that Verbele
mentioned because he brought this up last week, the point
that I'm making. The one play that Rabel mentioned was

(37:29):
the HM touchdown before halftime in Miami. That's a play
where you miss a tackle and you end up giving
up a thirty yard touchdown. Those are the ones you
can't have. But these other little mistackles here and there,
where you know, your Tonga example, the Dugger example, like,
those are ones that you can kind of live with
because you're not giving up anything. You're not giving up
any extra yards from it, right And to your point,

(37:50):
maybe you make a play on the ball and you
actually force a turnover by being aggressive there and trying
to blow the guy up. So all of it is
is kind of you know, I think the mistackled thing,
I don't know if I would say it's being overblown,
but I do think that there's some positive thing coming
out of it.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
There's certainly room to get better. I thought the tackling, though,
was better in this game than it was compared to
the first two weeks, especially by Roberts splain, which we'll
get Robert all right.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
The last bad I think we might disagree of where
this is categorized, but I put it in the bad
and not the stuff that gets you beat is the
five penalties for first downs. So they got called for
five penalties that led directly to first downs in this game.
The biggest one was the holding call in alex Austin
that wiped out a strip sack for Milton Williams backed
up on the Steelers' own goal line, so instead of

(38:42):
fourth and punt from like the Steelers one yard line,
it's a new set of downs, and the Steelers ended
up scoring a touchdown on that drive and going up
fourteen to nothing. Those penalties are are hurting them considerably
in these games. Calebon Chason two more penalties in this
game on defense, Marcus Jones a personal foul, which was
a legit call. You can't chop down blockers like that

(39:05):
in the open field anymore. So all of these penalties
that are, you know, kind of especially the ones I
would say that are taking off negative plays like the
Milon Williams sack. Those ones they can't have. That's it's
bad football and they need to cut it out. I
don't know if you agree with me not putting this
in the stuff that gets you beat category.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
It's textbook stuff that gets you beat. You're giving away
free for it. And I look again, it was it
was called tiki tack. I don't think the refs are
the reason that the Patriots lost this game.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, but it was.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
It was you know, there were definitely some ticky tack
annointant calls. I I would penalties and turnovers are things
they can you beat. I think that that's textbook.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Well, if they they could have had all five of
those turnovers or all five of those penalties, excuse me,
And if they didn't turn the ball over five times,
they still win the game by a touchdown. So to me,
it's just like, yeah, they were not good and they're
in the bad category, and you want to eliminate them,
just like the mistackles. But it's not necessarily. I don't
think that you're losing games because of those penalties.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
If they even turn them all over three times and
still losing the same way. The penalties are the headline.
I still think the penalties are what get you beat, all.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Right, the stuff. I knew you were going to disagree
with me on that. That's cool.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Well, because the nerds don't believe in penalties.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, not really, Uh, you don't believe it is strong?
Is strong, but not as not as detrimental to the
teams as the turnovers are.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
So I will say this to the And I don't
know exactly the stat Vrabel was referencing, but I've seen
some people run with it, maybe beyond his context. So
I'm not criticizing him because I'm sure he's more informed,
but I think people just hear a line and parrot
it because he said the other day, like, the penalty
margin isn't as indicative of winning as some people think
it is. Yeah, okay, I'm curious where that line is drawn.

(40:52):
Are we including games where one team had one more
penalty in the.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Other, Well, usually I would say it's by penalty the yardage, or.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Like, okay, well weigh fifty five pounds the yard because it's.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
It's really more. And this is going to drive you crazy,
But it's really more about like when the penalties are
and like in terms of win probabilities and stuff like that.
Like there's a big difference between the penalty I brought up,
which was the holding call on Alex Austin that wiped
out of Milton Williams stripsack and an off side by
calevon Chase on on first down, right like.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
That, Well, I think to the point, that's fair, Like
not every penalty's created different. I think my bigger issue is, like,
however you want to saying that the penalty number isn't
fully on the line of who wins or loses doesn't
mean carte blanche, go commit all the penalties you want
because ultimately doesn't impact the game and we shouldn't care.

(41:47):
Those two are not the same thing, because if you're like,
this is where and again I don't think Vrabel's doing this,
but I think some people hear this line and run
with it. Oh, there's no correlation between committing penalties and
win loss, so we should totally ignore the penalties. But
I'm sorry if you're a team that's getting penalized and
this isn't what the Patriots are, but like, if you're
a team that's getting penalized twelve times a game, it

(42:09):
is going to be hard to win. So that's not
to say you can't have penalties, because to your point,
I think it's more about the context of the penalties
and the way the game's being called more than anything else.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
So I yeah, Like the thing is is that it's
what he's saying and what I am an agreement with
him on. Is that on the list of crap that
gets you beat. Yeah, it's not going to be as
high on the list as some of these other things
that we thought.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Depends I don't think the answer. I don't think that
that's a yes or no thing.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
I So just to look at it, I'm gonna I'm
gonna nerd out for a second and annoy you, which
is exactly why I'm doing it. So the top ten
plays in this game in terms of win probability added
or subtracted, so basically the most impactful plays in the
end higher game. Drake May's stripsack, Rimandre's fumble on the

(43:06):
goal line, a touchdown to Hunter Henry, Aaron Rodgers' interception
touchdown at Calvin Austin at the end of the game.
Actually the fourth and one scramble by Drake May is
on here. Uh, the Antonio Gibson fumble, Vermandre's first fumble,
Drake May's interception in the end zone, and then the

(43:30):
ten yard play to Kenneth Gainwell that put the Steelers
into field goal range on their game winning drive. Nowhere
on that list is penalties. Okay, it's touchdowns, it's interceptions,
it's turnovers, it's it's key plays in the actual plays.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Not but that's using the formula that the nerds who
don't believe in the penalty is created. So you understand
that's a little bias, right, I.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
We'll get to this all on.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
Hang on just here. Yeah, teams that commit ten or
more penalties in the last ten years only win forty
four percent of the time.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yeah, but you could do that with anything. Teams that
teams that only throw for one hundred and fifty yards.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Here's my point. But no, But because one hundred and
fifty yards is an ab normally low.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Number, okay, right, ten penalties is an a normally high numbers.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Right, So that's my point. There's no correlation between penalties
and winning. No one said there's notion, What was the
exact I don't want to miss quote what was the
exact that it's just impactful.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
So the three loss as much as other three things
that he highlighted that impact win loss at the most.
And this isn't to say that these don't other things
don't impact it at all. It's just the three most
important things. Turnover margin, yep epau per dropback or like
passer rating or whatever you want to use to UH
for quarterback efficiency, and rush differential. Those are the three things. Now,

(44:51):
rush differential is more about like when you have a
lead late, you're going to start running the differential?

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Is it the cart or the horse?

Speaker 4 (44:58):
Right?

Speaker 1 (44:58):
All right? So just on the pet So okay, penalties
aren't the most impactful thing, but it can be if
you let them become a problem in the average.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
So why it's in the bads?

Speaker 1 (45:09):
It's just so okay, But this is this is you
can't The reason I put it in things that get
you beat is because they add up quickly and if
you limit them. Yes, they're not things that get you
beat if you keep them to a reasonable amount. But
it's really easy for fake Again I'm not accusing verbelists,
but it's really easy for some fans who subscribe to
the analytics to look at that and say, well, I'm

(45:30):
not going to worry about the penalty number because it's okay,
tory about eight penalties in a game with a crew
that's flag heavy doesn't get your beat, But that doesn't
mean you, like, you still have to clean it up.
You still absolutely have to clean the bad. To me
is like the stuff that gets you beat is self
inflicted wounds. That's what I look at that category being

(45:50):
not all right like this. You know, it's not one
off bad plays, it's not the other team making plays,
it's not it's the things that are solely self inflicted
that are fixable. A lot of those penalties are solely
self inflicted things that are fixable, and you can't let
that number run.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Up this team in this regime. And I didn't want
to do this now. I wanted to do this in
the second hour, but I just just to finish this
debate we're having here. This team that we are watching,
in this regime that we are building here in New
England is analytically driven. And so you and your brethren

(46:30):
can all sit over there and you can all be
stubborn and just not accept it. For what it is,
or you can just understand that all thirty two teams
are headed in this direction, the Patriots included. So I
just don't really understand, like I guess, I just the
stubbornness is And I'm not like trying to come at you.

(46:51):
I'm just like, I don't understand why we can't just
accept the fact that this is the way that it is.
And so instead of just trying to completely bad at
all the time, like just understand it. I'm not talking
about you. You understand the picture.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
I think big picture because people don't want their sports
determined by numbers, and a lot of people see what's
happened with baseball and they don't want it going that
far to the point where it takes that we love
about the game. And they said that in baseball, No.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
This is a different sport. It's a different sport, and
I I think the team sport baseball is not a
team sport.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
I I I think the other side of it is
you your brethren. Yes, we're spent so much time speaking
down to my group. When Vrabel was, oh, you want
another meat head, Yeah, we're gonna he's Ben Johnson and
his changed to number. That's what we got to do.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
This isn't what he was in Tennessee. So I I
was going off of what I knew. If I had
known that he was going to be uh so analytically
driven and taking all of this information that the analytics.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Been in Cleveland, and he's talked about how much that
experience has changed him.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
I guess. I mean, look, I I he's always had
stretch with him, who is, by most accounts, maybe the
best analytics guy in the entire NFL. But it felt
like in Tennessee. And I wasn't watching Rabel press conferences
in Tennessee like I'm watching him at the Patriots, But
it felt like in Tennessee that he was much more
of that thing go by your gut, you know, instincts

(48:23):
and things like that. His decision making throughout and also
some of the answers, like the answer that he had
about like you know, teams that turn it over five
times only win five percent, and like he has all
these numbers that that is not the Rabel I remember
from Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
All says this. When we had the big argument Ben
Johnson versus Mike Brady, just listen, we were in those
low comfy chairs and we had that whole drag out thing,
and that was probably the best show we've ever done.
I enjoyed that immensely. At one point the conversation became
and I think that this was ultimately the debate. We
agreed there were flaws with Rabel. We agreed there were

(49:01):
flaws with Ben Johnson. Yeah, And I remember asking you this,
is it easier to take a culture building coach and
have him adjust schematically or is it easier to take
the schematic analytics coach and have him learn to be
a character builder? And I said, give me the guy
that connects on a human level that we know can

(49:22):
do that, and you put some different coaches around him,
you put some different coordinators around him, and maybe the
philosophical approach to the football is a little different. That's
what I wanted from Mike Rabel. Is that not exactly
three I mean it's three games, but like, yeah, but
you would want to know. You wanted analytics, you wanted
heavy motion, you want it outside zone. What are they

(49:42):
doing Evan? Yeah, and and but that, but they're doing
everything you wanted. But we got the guy that has
actually established a culture.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
So really, and I'm not like mad about it, Like, really,
what I know you're not mad about it, but really,
what we're what we're getting right out of this marriage,
which I think is what's happening here is this is
this feels so far a lot like the Detroit Lions,
where Dan Campbell is mister kneecaps right, like he's biting
off knee caps and stuff like that. But when you

(50:12):
actually that's Dan Campbell's personality, that's his outward facing personality.
But when you actually look at the process by the Lions,
the Lions are probably the most analytically driven team in
the NFL.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Look, every time we talk about a team, you say
that the most analytically driven. Did you said about the
Browns the other day?

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, the Browns try to be, but like the Lions
do it at the Lions successfully do it? Okay, right
the Lions, I mean, come on, Like the fourth down
decision making that the Lions are doing is all analytically driven,
and the Patriots fourth down decision making so far has
all been analytically driven too, So like it.

Speaker 5 (50:48):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
I like where they're headed now the offense stuff. I'll
just say this not to take anything away from Rable
and and what he's brought into the table. I do
wish that there were a little bit more credit going
to the offense to Josh, because I think Josh McDaniels,
I think there's a lot of talk right now that
Josh McDaniels is bending the need to the way that

(51:12):
Rabel and Vrabel's guys want to run the offense. It's
West Coast, right, They're turning into a West Coast offense,
and I think that's really unfair to the guy calling
the plays and the guy that's the offensive coordinator by
title and is, you know, one of the best in
the league in my opinion, and that's been my opinion
for a while now. I just to try to make

(51:34):
it like there's this like you know, inner turmoil of
like who's in charge and like who gets to run
the I that's just not like fair to me to McDaniels,
because I think McDaniel's doing a great job not only
with the offense and the system and the scheme, but
also with Drake May and he deserves that credit. That
doesn't mean that Rabel doesn't deserve any of the credit,

(51:56):
but I just that would be the only pushback that
I would have towards all this right now. But analytics wise,
what they're doing offensively is exactly what I wanted. And
I'm just surprised that Rabel has gone this far this way.
I did not think that he would be this kind
of coach. You thought that he was going to do this.
You're smiling over there like you knew this was coming.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
I remember saying at the time, No, you did not know,
not to this extent. Fair, but no, I remember. Part
of my take at the time was he's not let's
see the staff he hires, right that with Ben Johnson,
so much is on him because the things he does well,
you can hire coaches to do well. The things we
didn't know about him, you really couldn't substitute the things.

(52:40):
The things we knew Mike Rabel did well are things
you can't Your personality is your personality. Your ability to
connect on a human level is not. It's a hard
you can't really learn that.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
It's two different brands. He has made it two different brands.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Whereas some of the schematic stuff, and if so, the
schematic stuff, I thought there was a chance into this
that they were going to come in and it was
going to look different like what he did in Tennessee.
The analytics stuff, all right, that's a little surprising, but
it's kind of the same idea. Mike Rabel doesn't have
to be the biggest analytics guy on the planet, but
if he if you think, if you're somebody whoinks it's important,
he's opened the door to it, and he's gotten people

(53:17):
and who can do it.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yeah, and they've expanded the department. I mean, stretches is stretched.
But they hired like five or six people I remember
Yah hiring. Not to relitigate this whole thing again.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
I'm not gonna take a victory lot because it's only
two games in, but just to revisit the conversation now
that we have it happening in practice, hiring Ben Johnson,
who who is going to be able to handle some
of the character stuff that because Rabel has started to
change the culture. It's not done yet, but he's clearly
started to change the culture and the player is clearly
truly believe in what he's doing. Like if Ben Johnson

(53:49):
wasn't able to rise to that as a head coach,
the Bears are what one. I'm using Ben Johnson because
he was the guy, but like Mike McDaniel is probably
the better example, right because that was my worst case scenario.
But that's that's what you risk when you hire that guy,
is that he's a great x's and o's mind, But
is he a leader of men? And you can't substance.

(54:12):
You can't hire somebody else. We see teams try to
do that. Who was was it no Staley? Staley? Remember
they had to hire somebody to essentially like be the
head coach on game days.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
But Staley is also a defensive guy, right, But like
you can't and you can't subside. So far we both
got and what we've wanted out of this, which is awesome.
But besides the fact that they're wanting to yah. But
I know, big picture looking at the rebuilt. But here's
the I don't think.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
I only think splitting, like like having your cake and
eating it too. I think Rabel's the only guy who
offered them that opportunity. I don't think any of the
other coaches we talked about this offseason would have come
in and been able to go both ways the way
he has.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Fair Enough, All right, let's get to the stuff that
gets to be and then we got to take a
break and do some reeds and pay the bills a
little bit here. Yeah, but uh, you know, really the
five turnovers four of the fund the four fumbles are
pretty self explanatory, Okay, like Remandre fumbled twice, Gibson fumbled,
got to hold onto the book. They're a little they're
all a little different, but like, can we break it
down a little bit, I guess, But I really wanted

(55:18):
to talk about the interception. But yeah, okay, here's what
take Yep, the Drake May one, because I think three
of them are avoidable. Are mostly they're all avoidable, but
three of them are relatively avoidable.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
The Drake May one. I actually pulled the stopwatch out
for this. He was in the pocket for six point
one seconds. It's entirely too long to be in the pocket.
And I'm not saying that Drake May should never hold
the football. I like his ability to extend plays and
create off structure, and that's all good, and I have
no problem with him doing that.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
But at a certain point, I know when the journey's over, well.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
It's not even that, just leave the pocket, go do
all that over there, because when you're am I wrong,
like when you're asking your lineman all five your linemen
to hold up for that long, that's a major ask.
And if he at least rolls out well now, especially.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Once he starts running around, because now, like I've seen
this clip, was hard to cut you off, but like
I've seen this clip, you know, go out there and
like Will Campbell's just kind of standing around. But once
the quarterback breaks out like that and starts running around
like there's nothing the lineman can do, right, like you
don't know where he is, and then you're then you're
gonna get holding and like it just at that point,
the lineman is kind of you know, like at the

(56:29):
quarterback's mercy, like the tricky thing is, like that's why.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
So he kind of runs around, but he stays in
the same place. Yeah, he just sort of runs in
certain you got to bail out.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
So that's why he got into the twister little.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
I have no problem with him holding the ball. The
issue wasn't holding him the ball entirely, but at a
certain point you got to know when to leave the
pocket and continue to try to make something else happen,
especially on first down, Like.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Yeah, it was that fumble was you know, I actually
think they got what they wanted from a pass game perspective,
they they had Kyle Williams running a double move on
the right sideline and Drake tried to pump off the
corner and get Williams vertical, and Williams didn't get open,
but the safety like jumped it over the top. And
they had Henry on the opposite seam against Drew vill

(57:12):
Peppers and man to man coverage, and Henry was winning
up the seam on Peppers. And then when Drake came
off the pump, you know, to the double move, and
came to the seam, there was a collision in the
middle of the line and there was there was bodies
at his feet, and when there was the bodies at
his feet, he kind of got happy feet a little
bit and got he couldn't step into the throw to Henry,

(57:34):
and so he pulled it down. But what I would
like to see you more so than just like the
running around is kind of secondary to this, Like that's
obviously got to stop, but I think he's got the
arm talent to just let that thing just and there's
nobody over the top of it because the safety's over
the top of Kyle Williams. So like if you just
aren't like if you throw an actual deep ball and
not like a seam, not like a drive throw, but

(57:56):
actually just kind of loop it up there, like the
worst case scenario is that it's gonna Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
And I wonder if some of that is, you know,
the emphasis on setting his feet after the first couple weeks.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Just roll out. But the irony was that he was
trying to avoid a turnover and then he.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
And yeah he was too paranoid about one thing. So again,
just just roll out, just roll out. That's all massive
on that one, the Antonio Gibson one, that one look
hold on to the football, but tip your captain j
of broll Peppers. It's a heck of a play. We
saw him make that play here, a toide gets lower in,
the running back gets his helmet on the football. Probably

(58:33):
little easier with that guardian camp. He got a more room, right,
And again you don't want to see a fumble. But
that was the one that I looked at, Right, that's
a really competitive play by the defense, and the defense
made that play happen. And you know, not to again
not to totally excuse it, but I thought that was
a good play. The Stevenson ones were weird because he's
like through the line and he gets grabbed from behind.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
From like three gaps over too.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
I know though, those ones to me felt avoidable.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Yeah, those ones were weird.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Because you can't even really he's through again, he's through
the line, yeah, and it's it's just contact from behind.
He seems to lose track of the ball.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Will get more to Stevenson, but yeah, so yep, no,
I'm with you on all of them. With the interception,
and this kind of segues into the next thing I
wanted to talk about just the interception, situational football in general.
Two for four in the red zone with two turnovers,
so that's not only are you taking touchdowns off the
board in the red zone, but that you're taking points
to get all together off the board by turning it

(59:33):
over twice in the red zone. And then you know,
obviously this conversation that's on going about popping Stevenson that well,
we'll get to that specifically after the break. But on
the interception, I think that there's a couple of things
at play here. The biggest one to me is it's
the round ball, and he talked about this after the game.
He tried to drive it through the first window instead

(59:54):
of trying to just throw it over the top. So
like in that case, you got to throw that ball
to the back of the end zone and it's either
out of bounds or it's keish on booties, Like there's
no there's no way that the corner comes in play.
But at the same time, you know it's the wrong
ball and that's on Drake. Also, just quickly, Brady has
talked about this. The ball gets tipped a lot in

(01:00:16):
the low red zone, and if you throw it high,
you're not gonna it's not gonna get tipped. Like the
only reason why cam Hayward gets a hand on it
is because Drake tries to drive the ball through the
defense instead of layering it over the top of the defense.
If he throws that ball of the air underneath it,
then cam Hayward's hand never comes into play either. So
it's just that was created all by Drake in terms

(01:00:36):
of the type of throw that he made on the play. Now,
the pop Douglas of it all, I think a real
sneaky thing that goes unnoticed on this play. The Patriots
tried to run. You know, it's becoming a very staple
red zone concept. They tried to run a zipper motion
or a return motion where Pop's going to motion into
the formation and then he's going to fire out into

(01:00:58):
the flat, and they're basically running smash like corner flat
and they're trying to high low the corner out there
where if the corner goes back and plays the corner,
then he's gonna throw the flat. If he jumps the flat,
he throws the corner. And the issue that happens here
is that Pop like doesn't really run the flat, like
he kind of gets caught up in some bodies, you know,
on the motion, and then he doesn't really get all

(01:01:19):
the way out to the flat, and that just really
freed up the corner to play to just kind of
play that corner route there by booty. So this comes
back to all the Pop stuff that I want to
get to when we come out of the break of
just the awareness and like the the attention to detail
that I think his game is still missing. That is

(01:01:40):
really what's holding him back at this point. If he
runs that flat and the corner was already kind of
coming up to jump the flat, then that's an even
easy even if it gets tipped. I think that might
still be a touchdown anyways, even through the tip, but
because the corner is able to come off the flat
because of Pop Douglas route, he gets into the wind
and picks off the pass. So that situational football stuff.

(01:02:03):
I want to talk about some of that with Pop
and the awareness. I want to talk about Remandre and
what the future hole is there for him. But we're
gonna throw this to break real quick, as we got
to pay some of the bills.

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All right, Let's let's breeze through three, up through down here,
and then we're gonna take your calls and emails. And
I do want to talk about Stevenson and Pop and
our takes on that as situation. Those situations plural as well,
So let's just breeze through these. Number one up for

(01:05:51):
me was Hunter Henry in this game nine eight catches,
ninety yards, two touchdowns gains of eighteen fifteen and then
sixteen yard touchdown on fourth and two. Great play by him,
great throw by Drake may. I just thought Hunter Henry
was was nails in this game.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
He's really good. Yeah, I'll leave it's still good at
this age. And he's going to be a big part
of what they do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
It also made a sneaky downfield block on Drake's fifteen
yard scramble in the second quarter. Just a really good game.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Also came back in the game after it looked like
he'd gotten hurt at one point.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Yeah, really good game.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
That's the guy that needs to stay healthy. My every
one was Robert Splaine. You see how differently, and he
wasn't the entire reason the defense played better, but you
see how differently the defense operates when he's on his
game and tackling and you know, flying to the football.
So they need him. We talked about this last week
there with where they're struggling with linebacker play. There's a

(01:06:42):
couple of things they can do here and there to
maybe compensate for that elsewhere. But really a lot of it,
as much as we like to do the in depth
on this show, a lot of it really simply was
just that he needed to play better, period, full stop. Yeah,
and so it's good to see him. There's still a
little room improved, but it's good to see him get
back on the right track and look more like the
player we saw this summer, and that we've seen him
be in the past.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Yeah, I had him to you know, the pick three
run stuffs, fourteen total tackles. Just he was kind of
all over the place in this.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Game, which is exactly what you expect.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Now. The fifteen yard are to warrant on the final
drive is him, you know, it's that's his zone and
his coverage. But that's not really his game. Like the
game that they let him play for the majority of
this game is the game he needs to play, you know,
cleaning up and just hustle and you know, see ball,
get ball, read and react, you know that sort of thing.
I thought that they had him in better positions. I

(01:07:33):
thought that he played a lot better in this game.
Zero miss tackles in this game for him, just a
big improvement from Roberts Plaine yep. Number two Hunter Henry, Yeah,
number three kiros Tonga, that's beast. He is a beast.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
How awesome is Kyrie just comes in completely unassuming site.
He was like the last guy they signed that day
they signed Splain and Milton Williams. It was like a
really busy day. It was like him and Mac Williams
or I was home at that point, like eating dinner
kind of a throw in.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
I think.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
I think like I was on with you or somebody
one of the shows I did when were doing the
free agency recap, like skipped Kyris Tong. He was just
skipping him, some fringe guy. No, he's he's a baller dude.
He's awesome and he's fun to watch and you can
tell he his fun playing a game. It's getting into
the backfield against the run. He's getting into the backfield
against the pass, really really really good find early by
this front office.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
There was multiple run stuffs that he contributed to that
he didn't necessarily make the tackle, yeah, but his penetration
is what blew up the play. And then he also
drew a hold where he put Zach Frazier, the Steelers center,
just on skates and the guy just had to hold
on to him for dear life. He The only thing
that I can think of that is keeping his snapcount

(01:08:42):
low is conditioning like he's a three hundred and thirty
five pound guy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
So that's the only thing a game two other really
good defensive time, but he's just wrecking things whenever he's
in there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
So now maybe that's the best role for him is
to play twenty twenty five snap.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
I think it is. Maybe that's just what and maybe
you up it a little bit as you get more
of the year and you can give Barmore and Williams
a little more rest when you need. But I mean
he's the third guy in that room. But it's a
good Is that their best room right now?

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
Probably?

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
Yeah, I mean mel Williams is awesome defensive line.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
You want to throw Harold Landry in there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
So, So Harrol Landry was the other guy that I
had written down two pressures forth fumble, also tackle for
loss and coverage, you know, dropping out as the end
and tackling the running back there. I just think he
makes like four or five impactful plays a game. I
agree where I'm jotting down, you know, Harold Landry's name.

(01:09:35):
So I was really impressed with him. On the downside,
I personally stayed away from Pop and Stevenson. I think
those are obvious. I wanted to kind of talk about
some of these guys that I think were kind of
on the downs that maybe weren't as obvious as the
two most obvious ones.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
Ball security as one that includes Ramandre and Drake may
to an extent.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
So my number one downs in this game where Christian
Ellis and Alex Austin, who both got benched in the game.
And I said earlier, I thought it was good that
they showed some accountability on the defensive side of the
ball by by benching them. But they were hoping, especially Ellis,
but I would say Austin too, as kind of that
third or fourth cornerback. But these guys were going to
be contributors for them, not stars, not you know, high

(01:10:18):
impact players, but contributors. And the linebacker spot next to
Splaine now is a question mark. I'm honestly week four,
I'm kind of talking about Jolanie Tvai in my head again,
like is that an answer for them when he comes
back off injured reserve? Alex Austin, you know, at this
point that doesn't seem very playable at corner, which is

(01:10:40):
a bummer because I thought that he had a great
camp and I thought he had a great end of
the season last year, and I thought he was kind
of coming on as a contributor and a player that
they could rely on. And they just don't really seem
like they can rely on either of those guys. So
a hit for your linebacker depth and a hit for
your cornerback debt.

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
Yeah, where they didn't have a lot of depth at
linebacker before that that one especially.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Uh so you had ball security, had ball security.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
I just had that sequence on the goal line, Like
I know, you just kind of sang Josh mcdangel's praises
and I don't want to put him as a down
because for the most part they were good in that game.
You got to run the ball there at least once. Yeah,
you got to run the ball there at the end
of the half.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Checked out of a couple I think, yeah, it's specific.
I think Drake specifically said second down it was a
run play and he got to look the they were.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
They were blowing the Steelers line off the ball at
that point. That was a long drive to that defense
was gassed. Put the big heavies in row, a six
offensive linemen in there, put somebody in the backfield as
a full back, and just make them just sheer will stop.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Yeah, I thought it was.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
I think will And this isn't just caveman, you know,
run well no, no, no, let me explain some mo.
This isn't just caveman. You're on the goal line, run
the goal like go to the goal line play formation
in the Madden playbook can run it. That was like
an eight minute drive. Take advantage of the fatigue of
those guys and blow them back off the board.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
You're right, and I think one of the good things or.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Five wide QB power.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
They haven't done that yet, which I don't know exactly
why not, so I'll be honest.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
That's in uh not mad but in like the college
game this year. That's like something that's really hard to defend.
You go five wide and you either hit the quick
screen or you just QB power it if they have
too many guys in the box, and it's so hard
to stop if you have the right quarterbacks. So I'm
obsessed with that plane.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
Now they did a lot with Cam in twenty twenty.
Now Cam's a different animal. He is two hundred and
fifty pounds, but that's in the bag, like that's in
the well.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
That would have been I think that would have been
a good time to pull it out.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
They've motioned the running back a couple of times to
get indicators, and every time they motion them out into
empty I keep thinking that that QB power is coming,
and then they motion them back in and they don't
do it. So at some point I think that the
design quarterback runs will come out. Maybe they're saving those
for later in the season for kind you know. I
know this is kind of silly to say with the

(01:12:59):
rebuilding team, but like bigger stakes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
And Josh has history of that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Yeah, we said this.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
His offense is never the same in December, that is
in September.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
Okay, Uh. Number two for me it was Will Campbell.
I thought Will Campbell struggled in this game, and I
want to be fair and I want to be objective.
I sing his praises all the time when he's good.
I don't. I don't want to be you know, I
don't want to run away when he's when he's bad.
In this game, I had him with six pressures, PFF
had him with four. I think some of the things
seven they did after the game, but there they dropped it.

(01:13:29):
They review it. Uh. The some of the short corners,
the beauty is in the I the beholder like do
you is it too short?

Speaker 6 (01:13:38):
Is it not?

Speaker 5 (01:13:38):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Like the around the corner, you know, short corners like
you can kind of gauge at eye probably was a
little bit more nitpicky on some of those than PFF.
And that's why we had slightly different number. You want
to split the difference and call it five, we can
call it five.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
We'll call it five.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Five is a little bit too much. Now. The one
thing that I really concern me the most about it
not concerned, but like the reason why he's on the downs,
the inside moves, Like that's the one thing that I
don't want to see Campbell give up. I want to
see him fix that. Herbig got him twice on inside moves,
one of them down on the goal line on the
throw to Hunter Henry on the first down play, I

(01:14:16):
want to say it was second Yeah, second down one.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
That's why May threw the next one so quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Yeah, second down play. He beat there's a you know,
a blowby beat him clean on an inside move. Then
later on in the game he beat him again on
an inside move. Campbell wrote him down a little bit
better this time, but still registered a quarterback hit. Herbig
didn't get the sack, but it led to a sack.
The pressure led to a sack. I still am fully

(01:14:45):
on board and in on Will Campbell. I looked this
up last night because I wanted to kind of get
a more big picture of you. He is right in
the middle of the pack right now in pass blocking efficiency.
He's thirty fourth out of sixty two tackles. I will
take it average pass protection out of him. His rookie
season is exactly what they were looking for, just get

(01:15:05):
back to level at that position. I think he's still
an impact run blocker and if he's an average pass protector.
You know, when they drafted him, we talked about this.
He's not Jonathan Ogden, He's not Joe Thomas. He was
not that level of prospect. He's not Joe all right,
Like that wasn't the prospect he was. He was much
more in that you know, Jake Matthews like type of
mold right where he's going to be a good tackle

(01:15:28):
for ten years, but he might not be a he
might not have a gold jacket on when this is
all said and done, and I think I will take
it on the whole. The her big matchup in general
is going to give Those are the kind of guys
that are going to give him problems. The speed guys
that can get out on the edge, that can get
him opened up and then open up those inside moves.

(01:15:48):
Those are going to be the ones that they're going
to have to manage with Will Campbell and maybe chip
or slide or send some extra help that direction. Because
of the lack of reach, it makes it harder for
him to get out to those guys, and so then
he overcompensates and then they beat him to the inside.
So so sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
That was the other thing I noticed too, like they
sent more help to the right side in this game
than they had spots on right. No, I'm not saying
that that's and I think that that's a vote in
the confidence of Will Campbell and what he did in
the first two games. I had the offensive line as
a whole as a down. I thought, you know, Campbell's
obviously a part of that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
He didn't. This was his worst game.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
I will say though, just for reference, I looked this
up because I was curious.

Speaker 7 (01:16:26):
So they.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
NFL Pro Next Gen stats whatever you want to call
that one had the pressure rate at forty point four percent,
which is high. Yep, I mean it's you want to
be learning that That would have been their eighth highest
pressure rate in a game last year.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
Better.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
So if this is their floor again, they need to
be better than that, and I think they exceeded expectations
the first two weeks, which is why this feels so jarring.
I think they're probably somewhere in between what they were
the first two weeks and what they were in this game.
But like, I'll take that as a floor. If that's
your worst game or one of your like two or
three worst games, you have a solid offensive line. So

(01:17:04):
I think that, you know, we have that kind of
performance assuming everybody's healthy. Like, I think that's their floor
if they're healthy. Once I start losing guys, that's another conversation.
But if that's as bad as they get and they
don't play that way consistently, and they're better than that consistently, Like,
I feel pretty good about where they're aut on the
offensive line.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
So they faced some individual good rushers, you know, Crosby Watt,
you know, players like that, like.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
The best group.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
The Steelers front is the best group. It hasn't in
terms of strength of schedule. They haven't faced a murderer's
row of fronts yet. But just by the numbers, do
they the composite raking So Ben Bawling tracks this PFF
grade blown block percentage in past rush un lay or
pass blocking win rate. The Patriots composite grade right now

(01:17:47):
and those three metrics is seventh in the league. They
have the seventh best pass protection in the NFL. Now,
that seems a little high, just eye test wise, Like,
I think they're probably more middle of the past.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Yeah, I think they.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
I think that's so much better. I think that's accurate
in terms of what they've done to this point. Yeah,
I just don't when they face better fronts, it might
not be exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
I think they exceeded expectations the first tea games. I
don't think they're gonna be that good all the way.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
But so much better, I mean, marketably better than where
it was last year, which I know is not the bar,
but it's still nice, Like it's still refreshing that it's
so much better. So you had offensive line ball security, right,
So aro on three, yep, number three, I want to
talk about this a little bit. I think we're on
the same page here. I had Travon Henderson as the

(01:18:30):
third down and again this is outside of the obvious
ones of Vermandro Stevenson and pop.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
Pop.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
So Travon Henderson. I want to see Travon Henderson play more.
I wanted. I shouldn't say play more. I want to
see Travon Henderson succeed. I want him to flourish. I
want him to be the guy that we all thought
he was in training camp and in the preseason. But
so far the tape through three games has not been great.

(01:19:01):
I think the main thing that I'm seeing with him.
I know all of us are talking a lot about
the pass protection stuff, which is important and again came
up in this game. He allowed another hurry early. He
did have a really good rep late in this game
in pass protection that was much more indicative of like
his college tape in that regard, But another missed, you know,
blitz assignment early in this game that led to a

(01:19:22):
quarterback hit. But it's the the running in the vision.
He has a little bit of tunnel vision right now
when he runs between the tackles and he's not tempoing
runs great.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
Right, So like right, what he is something he did
so well in college.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
He's literally just smashing into the line of scrimmage right now.
So do you think into crowds.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
Is that a vision issue or is that a patient's issue?

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
Both? Okay, I think that he's missing cutback lanes but
I also think that because he's going so fast that
there's not enough time for him to read and react
to the developing.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
More of a vision issue or is it more of
a patient's issue.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
I think it's more of a patient's issue that feels
easier to fix. You have to know, and I said
this yesterday on PU running back, is tempoing runs is
really important. Yeah, you have to know. You don't have
to go one hundred miles an hour all the time.
You have to know when to put it into first
gear and then when to put it into six to
three year. And you have to have those different gears

(01:20:20):
as a running back because you need to allow the
blocking to develop. You know, the easiest, the best thing
that you can do as a running back is let
your blockers do the dirty work, like let them get
the run going, and then it's your job to then
get up to the second and third level and make
the unblocked guys miss right like that, that is where
your job is. So with Henderson, I think you saw

(01:20:41):
it a little bit too on his screen target as well.
He's just not seeing the field very well right now
in terms of cutting off blocks and patients behind his
blocks and all these different things. So I look at
it and think that this is just all moving a
little bit fast for him right now. I think he's
a little bit sped up with his reads and that

(01:21:03):
is very, very common for a young running back. What
that being said, the worst thing for them to probably
do is to throw him out there for fifty snaps
on Sunday, right like they have to. He has to
work on these things. So now that being said, his
speed is so important to this offense that maybe it's
like a package of plays where you're using him almost

(01:21:26):
as like a gadget player, where it's motions, it's screens,
it's vertical routes out of the backfield. Like it's not
traditional offense. It's more of like a package of specialized
plays that is meant to get his game breaking speed
on the field. Let's call it fifteen to twenty times
a game. And I think that's where we're at right

(01:21:46):
now at Trebon.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
And I've talked to this like when he's used as
a high volume guy, he's not as effective. That was
the case in college to begin with. So yeah, for me,
out of is it maybe just the speed of the
NFL game too, That's part of it because he's used
to some lanes that would be there in college, maybe
especially bringing right, that just aren't there right now. So
I think it's not that out of character for a
young running back, No, but it is something he needs

(01:22:08):
to improve on. I don't think the answer they're a
little stagnant when he's on the field right now. Offensively,
that's just the reality of it, and you need to
give him reps to break through. So I'm not saying
don't play them, especially with what's going on with demandre
but you also don't want to. I don't think the
answer to Trayvon Henderson struggling is more Travon Henderson. I
don't think that that's gonna help him. I don't think

(01:22:30):
that's gonna help the team either. To your point, pick
your spots, try to get him on the outside maybe
a little more.

Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
Yeah, I would like to see some of that. But
they they ran a toss to him and Campbell probably
could have gotten into the block a little bit faster.
But Travon also just like gave him no time to
get to the you know, and he just kind of
ran right right by Campbell. So I would like to
see that too, Like tosses, swing passes, obviously, verticals out

(01:22:56):
of the backfield. You know, they ran one in Miami
and they ran that pickplay for him and it worked.
You know, like things like that that are less, less
reading and reacting for him and more let's just get
his space and his speed into space.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
Yeah. I'm not like worried about him big picture, but
there's just some things he needs to improve on.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
Yeah, I exactly. And you know, ask did you do
your third one?

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):
My last one was Pop Douglas.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
Okay, so let's let's talk about this.

Speaker 1 (01:23:20):
Let's let's let's do Remondre first, because I think they're related. Yeah,
because you know, I got asked on the radio this
morning and just.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
To be clear, like this is our take on what
they should do with these two guys moving forward.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
Yeah, yeah, so I got it well, but I think
we need to have a The reason I want to
do Ramondre first is because I don't think the question
is what do you do with Ramondre Stevenson. I think
the question is what do you do about the running
back room?

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
The room as a whole is all of them have flaws.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
There's no obvious if they had a guy, if Trayvon
Henderson was out there lighting it up, or Antonio Gibson
was out there lighting it up. It's a lot. It's
an easy conversation, right one. I I'm kind of surprised
they didn't add it back, and I guess they still can.
It's Wednesday morning. They have an open roster spot, so
let's not roll it out entirely. But the thing with

(01:24:08):
Stevenson is, and all right, let me start here before
people say I'm being an apologist or I'm making excuses.
You can't put the ball on the ground, period, but
especially the way he's done it, and you look at
his history from last year. I'm somebody who said, hey,
he didn't have a fumble problem in the first three years.
He had it last year. But let's se if he
can get back on track. It looks like maybe he didn't.

(01:24:29):
You cannot put the ball on the ground, but period,
full stop. When he has been on the field, though
he's been one of their most explosive players. Offense is
running through him, and they have seven plays that have
gone for more than twenty yards this year. He is
responsible for three of those. When you look at what

(01:24:49):
he did in this game, and it gets overshadowed because
of the fumbles, rightfully so. But he converts two third
and longs in that game, two third and ten pluses.
There was another I think it was a third and
thirteen ten or third and twelve on that drive in
the second half where they're backed up where he gets
all but one, makes a defender miss, gets all but
one yard, and then he converts the fourth down for
them after that was the one all the way back

(01:25:10):
and should have been blown up. He makes a guy
clean miss in the open field. Yep, Traveon Henderson is
not doing that right now, Gibbs, He's doing it a
little bit. I actually think he's been sneaky. Okay, but
he fumbled and he also kind of has a fumble history.
So you can't. You cannot outright ben Tremando Stevenson. You

(01:25:32):
cannot not play him because the offense unless Travon Henderson
in one week takes that jump, the offense is going
to become stagnant. You're gonna go back to having a
lot of three and outs, which none of us want
to see, right, or you have to go back to
what you did against the Raiders and throw the ball
fifty times, which we know doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
It's an extremely difficult spot.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
So I think you have to pick your spots where
you know he's not going to be targeted as much.
Things like that. The other thing to know with him,
he's probably gonna get a lot of a lot of
yards after contact this week because the Panthers are not
gonna be in a rush to bring him down. They're
gonna stand them up and get the second and third
guy in and punch at the ball. So I I

(01:26:14):
know it sounds crazy like and I'm sure people are
annoyed hearing this, Like you got to watch them from
you to see all those fumbles last year, and then
he fumbles two times in this game and it's costly,
and I get people might be frustrated with it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
His fumble on the goal line, to me, was the
biggest player.

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
That's that's it, And it's an an excuse me. It's
not like somebody on the defense made this unbelievablelay to
knock it out. The offense when he's not on the
field grinds to a halt and is punting better than fumbling, Yes,
but you can't just have no offense and go back
to trying to win all these games ten to seven,

(01:26:48):
you can't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):
So I think it's an incredibly hard position between to
be in right because and Josh, they're trying to preach accountability,
they're trying to build a program, the trying trying to
put guys on the field that play winning football. But
at the same time, Uh, this offense right now is
built through Hunter Henry and Ormandre Stevenson. They are their

(01:27:12):
two best skill players and they have built the whole
thing around those two guys. And you see games from
Remandre like in Miami where he was maybe the best
player on the field in that game for the Patriots offense.
And so if you take him out of the equation
and you really don't have great backups to go to

(01:27:36):
right now great options because Henderson is.

Speaker 1 (01:27:39):
The guy can trust right right, Yeah, for different reasons,
because people we can't trust Evenson. Look, here's the thing
I think some people heard Mike Rabel say after the game,
like we're gonna need him talking about Andree, that's they
are going to need him, Like he's not wrong, not
cutting him. Like, here's the thing. Both both are true.
The Patriots need Rmonderie Stevenson on the field to be

(01:28:02):
the best version of what they can be offensively, and
the Patriots cannot afford to put Rimondra Stevenson on the
field if he's gonna fumble once a game, which he
was doing for good Chunk last year, he's doing right now.
So how do you square those two?

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
It's a rock and heart, but that's that's just where
you're at, right It's not always going to be easy
in the end. Welcome to the National Football League.

Speaker 2 (01:28:21):
Right, this is Enables as the head coach, and we
talk about the team on the podcast because this is
this is an incredibly different difficult spot because of all
the things that we're both saying.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
Can I give you what I think the answer is?
And this is gonna sound a little simplistic, this is
really what I think it is. Yes, you got to
split it a third, a third, a third, and just
try to put guys in situations where they're going to succeed.
Get Trevon Henderson to the outside, get him involved in
the passing game, but not pass blocking. Get Stevenson going
between the tackles. Don't run him too much consecutively because

(01:28:51):
I think that that's where the fumbles happen. For him
is when he is on the field and he's carrying
a ball five six, seven, eight plays in a row.
You know, Gibson's pretty well rounded. I think you just
mix him in where where you need.

Speaker 6 (01:29:04):
But like.

Speaker 1 (01:29:05):
A third, a third, a third, and whoever kind of
comes out of that looking the best. You start to
skew the touches and the carries and the snaps more
towards that guy. That's really kind of caveman pounding it,
you know, using a rock as a hammer. I don't
know you got a better answer. What does the math
tell you? Evan? Which running back does the math tell
you to play?

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
If it was me?

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
This is just no, that's the only question. I'm curious.
What's n tell you to play?

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
I like in terms of what like yards after you know,
you know how work better than me. But we're not
like you don't like not just you're not just placing
like a value on a player like E.

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
P A. D v O A.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
I mean, Remander is the best player out of the group.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
Who do they have the highest you know, Remondre, I'm
telling you, Okay, so like we do this in basketball
all the time, right, It's what is this stupid stat
you guys use in basketball when this player is on
the court, the true plus minus or something whatever, pie
player for sure, right, Yeah, Like, who's so Remondre? The
numbers tell you they're at their best when Remondres on
the field, even with the fumbles.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
And also, I would you know, just adding to all
the other things that we've said about what makes for
Andre good outside the fumbles, Uh, he's their best pass
blocker too well.

Speaker 1 (01:30:17):
And here's the thing about that, he's by far their
best pass and people were asking why he was on
the field of times late in this pass game past blocking.
You can't fumble when you're pass blocked.

Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
No, he was literally on the field for pasting. The
only is the only thing he did when they put
him back on the field.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
Which in that sense you can still use him, and
you don't if he fumbles about past blocking something so wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
I think. And there's two different sort of sides of
this and that, and that's what makes us such a
difficult spot for Mike was able to be in. The
first thing is preaching culture accountability. Don't do the stuff
that gets to beat like all of like the non
negotiables for him Remandre. But you know, violated in this game.

(01:30:58):
But let me if yeah. The other side of it, though,
is that in the short term they're best. They're at
their best with him on the field. So what's more important,
like the long term vision of the program or Remandre
winning them a game on Sunday against Carolina.

Speaker 1 (01:31:15):
It's the long term. If the other backs are doing
stuff that gets you beat too, getting blown up in
pass protection gets to beat Gibson, fumbled like Gibson's fumble
gets you beat again. Some of this is not necessarily
in defense of Hermandre Stevenson. It's simply you think you
have to acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:31:31):
I think you have to sit him against Carolina.

Speaker 1 (01:31:33):
I do not playing, Yes, I just worry about the
offense grinding.

Speaker 2 (01:31:38):
If you can't beat the Carolina Panthers at home without
Rimondre Stevenson, I think this isn't Buffalo. If this was Buffalo,
just beat.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):
The Falcons, I would argue, if anything, it's the opposite. Hey,
like Buffalo, we need everything we can get and we're,
you know, up against it anyway, and we need to
take some chances. And Rimondre gives us the chance for
explosive plaze with.

Speaker 2 (01:31:59):
The Carolina teams awful. The thirty to nothings score against
the Falcons is super deceised. Just they the Falcons imploded,
like they fired their wide receivers. Coach Zach Robinson's on
the hot seat, like your boy Pennix was throwing freaking
spraying the ball all over the yard like pick sixes,
Like that was that was it? Eosion? Don't play m Andre, Yes,

(01:32:22):
I think you.

Speaker 1 (01:32:22):
Gibson's lead back, and I mean, then do people look
at Gibson and be like, why is he allowed a fumble?
That guy isn't or Okay, I'm allowed to fumble once
without account I know Gibson has a little second fumble.
I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
I know that Gibson has a little bit of a
history from Washington. But it's not nine fumbles in your eye.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
I guess, but it's it's but the message, like if
we're just gonna talk about the message of it, he fumbled,
and you know, you look at Okay, so I can
fumble once and not be held accountable, but I can't
fumble twice.

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
And maybe that's the message.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
Right. You have to at some point, though obviously you
have to draw a line. Do you have to asses
do you dress him or is he healthy scratching apples?

Speaker 2 (01:32:57):
I don't know. I don't know, So that you probably
have to unless you want to, like call up Terrell
Jennings as the third running They probably have so you
probably have to dress him as a third running back.
But then you also create the distraction of him standing
on the sideline and not playing. Like it's obviously very
very different circumstances, but it's not Butler.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
So right, Like you don't want to do that, But
I think, first of all, I think whether he dresses
or not, Terrell Jennings, somebody there should be another backup.

Speaker 2 (01:33:23):
You think they should. They're gonna have to sign or
elevate a third running back.

Speaker 1 (01:33:27):
Do you do? You know you said it's the Caroline
Panthers at home.

Speaker 2 (01:33:30):
They're bad.

Speaker 1 (01:33:30):
You should beat them. What if it's close late and
Henderson's running for two yards of carry and Gibson fumbles again?

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):
Like this is not about any of that. But it's
not about kidding. No, it can't be, Alex. You can't
look at it like that, Like this is not the
Carolina about the Carolina Panthers in week four, This is
not what it's about. It's about they have non negotiables
up in the addit team auditorium, and protecting the football
is on the list, and he keeps putting the ball
on the ground.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
Like, but if you're if you're Mike Vrabel and you
lose the game and the offense is stagnant and Steveson
could have it, I didn't look at the team and
say I did what's best for the team.

Speaker 2 (01:34:05):
Because if you can't find a way to move the
ball against this Panthers defense without him, then you're porked anyways.
And honestly, like, I don't think it's gonna come to that,
Like I really don't, all right, So I I just.

Speaker 1 (01:34:18):
That's what I would do. Probably, do you think he
will play? Yes, I think he's gonna play a little bit.
I think it's gonna be a reduced role. I think
it's mostly gonna be pass blocking. But I think he's
gonna play.

Speaker 2 (01:34:26):
I agree, I think he'll play a little bit. And
that and if it's like if he plays like as
the third running back and it's pass blocking and things
like that to me is essentially benching.

Speaker 1 (01:34:35):
So that's what I would do. Yeah, Like that, that
to me is we're gonna pa you know you're gonna
play to pass block, you might get a couple of carries,
like if a guy needs a spell, somebody gets hurt,
you use him as a third running back like that,
I would demote him. I wouldn't outright bench him and
get some of that is just because maybe that's a
better way to it. I think you need him to
do certain things that the other guys. You need him

(01:34:56):
in a pass block, the other guys aren't gonna do
that at the same level.

Speaker 2 (01:34:58):
I think demoting him and so a benching him is
probably a better way to put it. And I think
the goal is long term would obviously be to get
him back to being the lead guy, because he is
your best running back. But I will strongly say though,
like all you know, I'm not saying it's a lot
of people, but like people saying that he should be
cut or all like, he's not that's this' relax. But
I do think that there needs to be a level

(01:35:20):
of accountability.

Speaker 1 (01:35:22):
I do think you need to because they we both
agree they would they do need him.

Speaker 2 (01:35:26):
Yes, in the season, he might be their best offensive
player outside of Drake, like he might be there at
least their best offensive skill player. And I don't think
that that honestly, I will say that, and I don't
think it's necessarily that close. Like him at his best
is their best offensive skill player.

Speaker 1 (01:35:44):
Him saying after the game because he was asked about
the comment, you know, Vrabel saying we're gonna need him,
and he was asked about that, and he's, I think
for batim, if I can't hold on the ball, they
don't need me. Like he's not wrong, he's not wrong,
but men like you can't lose him mentally.

Speaker 2 (01:36:02):
Yeah, either.

Speaker 1 (01:36:03):
So whatever you're gonna do is gonna impact like cause
that's when the fumbles will read like there's no coming
back from that in any job, whatever you're in. Like
we've all gotten discouraged. I'm sure anybody listening you get
discouraged in your job and you let it mentally weigh
on you. That's a lot like I'll write something, I
make a typo, I go and I change it, I
forget about it. But if it's like a bad one

(01:36:24):
or I get called out in a way I don't
like and like, then it becomes a mental thing and
it lags, and then it starts impacting me with other stuff,
Like if you know you need him, you do have
to be and this is to get back to the
leader of men thing. Yes, you can't play him. You can't.
You can't play him as much as you have and
you can't ignore it. You can't create a situation either
though where he's just so lost mentally that that you

(01:36:47):
can't fix it because the goal still needs to be
long term to fix it. And Okay, so if it
becomes a mental block, then there goes.

Speaker 2 (01:36:54):
That what what are you doing with pop M?

Speaker 1 (01:36:59):
So you guys know, I've been as big of a
defender Popped Doug as anybody. It's probably time to give
somebody else some looks. I don't think the snap counts
going to zero. And the thing for me is him
and Drake just aren't on the same page and I
kind of hope that they get there with more and
more reps. And it's just not happening. We talked about
this last week. It's it's Kyle Williams. I've been getting

(01:37:21):
asked about Fton Chisholm, and there's going to be a
time for Afton Chislm. I know I keep coming on
here every week and saying be patient with the Fton
Chislm there will be a time for Afton chism. This
is not it because, like you talked about Trey Von Henderson,
there's a straight line speed element with Pop Douglas that
when you take him off the field, the offense is
slow and Fton chislm is not replicating that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:37:42):
I wish they'd taken more advantage of that and run
Pop more vertically.

Speaker 2 (01:37:46):
I think it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
And also like just the element of Kyle Williams a
third round pick. You got to get this guy going.
You cannot burn another top one underd pick on a
receiver doesn't play.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
Is a solution. And I think that this solution in
theory sounds great but at the same time have some reservations.
But really the solution in three receiver sets, I think
for most people is Divis goes to the slot, Booty
goes to the Z, and Kyle Williams comes on the field.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
Let's so Pop Douglas has been the fourth receiver because
it's been yeah, Blin's dig.

Speaker 2 (01:38:18):
But not an eleven Like it's because they're playing so
much too tight end.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
Okay, so I'm not I'm not playing Kyle Williams and heavy.
Let's just when you're in heavy you don't need to
change anything. Pop wasn't playing that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
That's different though, I mean, yeah, but maybe that is
is it?

Speaker 1 (01:38:36):
This might surprise you. And depending on how exactly want
to measure this, there's some arguments' Kahon booty, but Stefan
Diggs has been their most productive wide receiver. Yeah, no
wide receiver on the team's caught more. I think only
Hunter Henry's caught more passes and yards. He's second of Booty.
So do you want to tinker with him right now?
Or do you want to build on what he's doing

(01:38:59):
and run Kyle Williams in the slot.

Speaker 2 (01:39:02):
I just don't think Kyle Williams is the slot. So
not a pure slot like.

Speaker 1 (01:39:06):
Kyle, but you can you he can do the stuff
that Pop Douglas was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:39:11):
He's more to me, he's more vertical than he is horizontal.

Speaker 1 (01:39:14):
He should be using that role more vertically.

Speaker 2 (01:39:17):
I don't know. I I look at Diggs and I
look at the way that he played in Houston this
past year, and it's a lot of the same. The
catches that he is making are you know, slants in cuts,
whips like things like that. Like it is all the
slot routes, right like it's all the same kind of thing.

Speaker 6 (01:39:35):
I just.

Speaker 2 (01:39:37):
I think the biggest thing with Pop and that role
in general, and really you know that slot receiver role
that I wrote about at the end of training camp
a lot so much of it is having it between
the years. Like it's so it's a thinking position. It's
the reads. It's knowing where the holes are in coverage.
It's knowing when it's man versus zone. It's knowing your

(01:40:00):
route depths and like being precise with your routes in
that respect, it's knowing where the sticks are right Like
these are all like the little things that are adding
up for Pop Douglas, and so they have to get
if it's not going to be him, then they have
to get a more heady, high IQ player in that position.
That doesn't mean that Pop doesn't have a role. It

(01:40:22):
just means that maybe that's not his strong suit. And
as much as I agree with you that it slows
them down in terms of team speed on the field,
with Chisholm, I think Chishm is gonna have that. I
think he's gonna have the game instincts and the feel
and the awareness. Now he might not have the burst
and the speed and the explosiveness that Pob Douglas has.

(01:40:44):
But I hate to say it because I don't know
for a fact. Yeah, but my gut tells me that
if Eftin Chishom catches that fourth and one play, he's
going shouldered down and he's charging up.

Speaker 1 (01:40:57):
If you don't think you can make this whole decision
in off of one play, like, I think you need
to look at the picture of the offense.

Speaker 2 (01:41:05):
But that that play is a microcosm of all of this.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
But that slot guy simply being able to fall forward
and get one more yards to two.

Speaker 2 (01:41:13):
But it's not just it's also occupying the flat on
the booty touchdown. It's also like when they run that
swing concept out of the spinner, Like he keeps drifting
up the field and he makes as Drake May is throwing,
the throw is becoming further and further away from the
Niger back Like it's route depth, it's precision. It's all

(01:41:33):
these little details that you can run a four to
four and be fast and be explosive and be jitterbuggy
and all this great stuff. But if you aren't in
the right places at the right time, then what what
good is any of that?

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
Then when's Kyt Williams gonna play like ever?

Speaker 2 (01:41:47):
He's gonna play on the outside.

Speaker 1 (01:41:50):
You're making the case for Chisholm right now, right, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
Making a case for somebody else. I think Diggs could
probably do this. These all these little things I.

Speaker 1 (01:41:57):
Would put inside that. I just think if you take
Pop Douglas off the field right, get slow you do.
But so your point was how changing the receiver impacts
the way the offense operates. Yeah, I'm looking at it
more as what is the change in personnel going to
do to the way the defense defends you? And I
think when you have that slower group out there, those

(01:42:18):
safeties are going to come up. Teams are going to
be more inclined to play bass, even against eleven, and
it's just going to make it harder for you to
do a lot of the other stuff you want to do.
So that's why I think it asked me Kyle Williams.
But Kyle Williams on slot, wherever, wherever. That's why think
Kyle Williams is the next guy you go to.

Speaker 2 (01:42:35):
So what I would do, Yeah, because Hollins is going
to play in his role right because of the blocking
which has been hit or missed by the way, but
he's going to play so better than what you're gonna
get the most these So in eleven, like when we're
talking about obvious pass, Yeah, I think it's Booty Diggs
and Kyle Williams, like I really do now ftin Chisholm,
I think should probably get some of those pure like

(01:42:57):
why are f slot reps like the Danny ammondol slot reps.
I think that that's still kind of a role could
exist for Chisholm, but it's Kyle Williams on the outside
with with Booty and it's Digs in the slot, Like
I think that's where you have to go, And I
think you have to hope that Digs, what ten year
veteran at this point has that extra headiness, that extra

(01:43:20):
field awareness, that extra game sense that Pop just isn't
showing right now, and Pop, I think to me, it
goes into a role. It was similar to what we
were just talking about with Trevon Henderson, where it's package
plays of motions and window dressing type things and swings
into the flats and you know, maybe some vertical routes,

(01:43:44):
but it's not the Danny Amndola. Julian Edelman Wes Welker
Gamut of slot routes that I just don't think that
he's fully detail oriented enough to be to thrive in
that type of role. And I would also, just like,
you know, to end it this point, there is something

(01:44:07):
there to the fact that he's only five foot seven
and like three quarters or whatever it is, like his
height and his lack of catch radius. I don't know
how great of a fit that is with the quarterback.
And I've been saying this for a while now. This
is not a new take of mine, and like it
just kind of seems to me like it's hard. It's

(01:44:28):
a hard target to hit when Pop is running across
the field at full speed on a crossing route and
he's running in between spaces in the zone and Drake
May has got to throw it to like the second
zone window like on the cross or that he airmiled
that almost went intercepted, and he's got a five foot
eight slot receiver that he's trying to hit within in

(01:44:49):
between two zone defenders. Like, it's just not a really
big target, especially when he's moving across the field. So
I think that's an element of this as well. But
at some point you know, just like they did on
defense with Alex Austen and Jack Gibbons, like, there has
to be some consequences for the fact that these guys
aren't performing and you have to try some different things.

(01:45:10):
And I do think because they have Kyle Williams kind
of waiting in the in the wings and eftin Chishlm,
this is a little bit different to me than running back,
because I do think they kind of have some options. Yeah,
they here, all right. We talked a lot today. I'm
sorry that we didn't get to all the emails and
stuff like that. We do have some calls and if

(01:45:30):
you guys are still waiting, we'll take them now. In
the last ten minutes. I apologize. There was a lot
to unpack today and we didn't get to as many
of you guys as we wanted to. But Patty is
an agua. What's up, Patty?

Speaker 7 (01:45:42):
What's up? Guys can hear me?

Speaker 2 (01:45:44):
Okay, Yeah, thanks for holding Patty, appreciate it, no problem.

Speaker 7 (01:45:49):
I did want to get into a comp with Drake,
but I'll skip that for next week. But I got
to hold on to it that Alex, You're kind of
spot on when it comes to just being patient with
quarterbacks and waiting to see what happens at the same
and half of their second season. But the guy I
want the question I wanted to ask you guys, was
I attended two practices this summer. I attended the first

(01:46:09):
Saturday practice and the joint practice against the against Commanders.
And I used to think it was funny you guys
would always say, did we get fooled by Taekwon? You
know when he was on this team, And I'm guessing,
you know, did we all kind of get fooled by Pop?
Because to me, like those two practices I went to,

(01:46:29):
he looked like the best skill player on the team.
And I'll take the answer out there, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:46:33):
Yeah, Patty, it's a really good question, and it's something
that I've thought about a little bit with Pop and
with Travon Henderson, Like these are two guys that are
speed guys that when the contact was toned down a
little bit compared to what it is in a live
game setting. They both had great summers, both pop In
and Henderson. And the fact that we've gotten into the
games and that hasn't translated to the regular season is

(01:46:56):
kind of putting me in a little bit of a
mental pretzel. I don't really especially with pot because it's
like not a rookie, right, it's a bizarre.

Speaker 1 (01:47:05):
Like there's just maybe we overrated the kind of fit
he's going to be in this offense. And your point,
they're seeing a lot of zone. He's not a guy
that has a ton of success against zone. Yeah, maybe
didn't get the man coverage that they wanted, like pop
somewhere I could see going somewhere else having a ton
of success. Yeah, and you see obviously what Taekwon Thornton's doing.
So I don't think we got fooled. I just think
maybe we didn't look at the full big picture. We

(01:47:27):
didn't see the picture as big as it maybe ultimately was.

Speaker 2 (01:47:29):
So good for Taekwon. Happy for my guy, yep, good
for him. Now that being said, it's still only nine
catches for one hundred and seventy one yards. He's hit
like three or four really big plays down the field.
He's averaging nineteen yards.

Speaker 1 (01:47:42):
That's what thought he was going to be. Yeah, hever
supposed to be a volume guy.

Speaker 2 (01:47:45):
He's doing exactly. He is carving out a role for
himself in the league, and I'm happy for him. We
tried to do Taekwon multiple times and it just didn't
happen for him here. But some of the things that
I'm seeing for Taekwon is it's really very similar, you know,
like he could carve out a role as like and
Nelson agalor Philip Dorsett type in the league and probably

(01:48:08):
have a pretty good career doing that. So good for him.
Jude is in mass I assume what's up, Jude, Hey,
how's it gone good?

Speaker 3 (01:48:21):
I wanted to say that first, I definitely agree with
you Evan where I think that having Kyle on the
field more is just the best way to go. With
Kyle and Stefon Diggs in the slot and Booty, I
think that we need that juice, whether whether or not
it's Pop or him. So I definitely agree with that.
But my question was, what are you guys thinking about

(01:48:42):
the production in the run game? The EPA for plays
and necessarily called that great and like our numbers kind
of like sitting around like the twenties. How are you
feeling about it?

Speaker 2 (01:48:50):
Yeah, yeah, Jude, it's a good question. It's something that
has come up a little bit over the last couple
of days, is that they haven't traditionally been able to
run the ball very well. Like all of their explosive
runs really have come from Drake, and like he's I
think they're leading rusher right now if I'm not mistaken.
So it's a good question they haven't been able to

(01:49:12):
run the ball traditionary very well. But I will say,
you know, class half full, a lot of the run
actions that they are doing are setting up a lot
of really good play action opportunities, and maybe it's worth
it to stick with the run game even if it's
not working very well. And so I'm thinking maybe that

(01:49:34):
if they keep on doing this with the play action passing,
that it will empty the box a little bit more
and teams won't be as focused on the run. I
think what they're getting right now from a run game
perspective is they're getting a lot of gap penetration and
stunting from the defensive lines that they're facing. So they're
getting a lot of post snap movement and they're stunting

(01:49:55):
and run stunting and penetrating gaps and things like that.
And so you'll only really do that like if you're
overplaying the run, like if that's like a game plan
focused thing, because like, we can't let this team run
the ball on us. So I do think that there's
an element of On Tuesday, when teams are game planning
the Patriots offense, I think one of the first things,

(01:50:17):
if not the first thing on the top of the list,
is let's make them one dimensional and turn them into
a drop back pass team, kind of like what the
Raiders were able to do to them a little bit
in Week one. So I wonder how much of that
is too, But yeah, they got to run the ball
better traditionally without Drake being as much involved. Mark is
in Connecticut. What's up Mark?

Speaker 8 (01:50:37):
Hey, guys, thanks for taking my call. Just a quick
couple of things. I was on the postgame show with
Paul and Mike, and I believe that those guys have
said something to the effect that Kevin fall Back early
in his career fumbled the ball quite quite a lot
and they were able to somehow work with somebody on

(01:50:57):
that and get that out of him. And I'm wondering
if that's but he might be able to, you know,
Kevin Folk might be able to help Remandre out with that.
And then the other couple of things is, yeah, we
need to get fon Chisholm, Danny Amidola two point zero
on the field.

Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
It's time.

Speaker 8 (01:51:10):
I'm the biggest advocate for Pop. I wear his jersey every.

Speaker 9 (01:51:13):
Time of the game.

Speaker 8 (01:51:14):
But you know, maybe it's just not good with Drake,
you know, because of his size and everything. But I
think Chisholm just has a little more twitch, little more
juice in that. And then the last thing is, I
don't know why we're going to Pop on a fourth
and two. I want to see Digs on that, Like
that should be Diggs going fourth and two. Gotta have
a kind of moment there. So appreciate you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:51:34):
Yeah, thanks for the call. Mark. What was the first
thing he said is for a lot of Kevin Falk?
Oh yeah, so Kevin is he at LSU still Kevin Falk?

Speaker 1 (01:51:42):
I don't remember where he was.

Speaker 2 (01:51:43):
Yeah, he was coaching or like helping, advising or whatever
for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:51:47):
But the one thing I was actually the New York
Giants running backs coach. Oh really in the league, dude,
he's there, Troy Brown's there, a bunch of those guys. Yeah,
so he's probably helping Romandre out.

Speaker 2 (01:51:56):
Yeah, so the fair The one thing I wanted to
talk about with with the fall point though, I remember
Kevin Falk used to wear the elbow pads. Yeah, so
I he wore the elbow pads. I believe that was
part of fixing the fumbling issues. And I'm not saying
that's gonna solve it for Remandra necessarily, but like he
used to take the with the elbow pad and then

(01:52:18):
he would like wedge the ball the point of the
ball into his elbow pad, and that's like what allowed
him to like kind of hold and secure the ball
a little bit more. So I'm not saying that's the answer.
I know a lot of people also talk about like
Tiki Barber fixed his fumbling issues by like holding it
up on his chest and tell yeah, which maybe like
that's an answer. I don't know. I don't know if

(01:52:39):
like where he carries the football is necessarily a solution,
but maybe maybe it is. Sewn is in Vancouver.

Speaker 9 (01:52:45):
What's up, Sean Shaanatova? This is you know, this is
the week of the year where we reflected in our sins,
and for the Patriots, those sins are the.

Speaker 7 (01:52:54):
To get to beat Alex.

Speaker 3 (01:52:55):
You're right, you can still.

Speaker 9 (01:52:57):
Win the game even if you do the crap that
gets you beat, just can't do it five times like
the last time the Patriots had five turnovers in the
game was two thousand and eight against Steelers and lost
thirty three to ten. That was a better Patriots team.
They finished eleven to five. The previous season was the
only time a team went undefeated in a sixteen game
regular season, and that game wasn't even close. No, if

(01:53:19):
New England turned the ball over just four times, they
still win. They had five crap plays that they get
to beat and we're in the game with less than
a minute left. The Pats also didn't take advantage of
bad play. Alex Austin penalty took away Milton Williams bumble recovery,
Blaine had an interception that gives them first and goal.
The next play, Stevenson second bumble is recovering in the

(01:53:40):
end zone for a touchback. So you're not taking advantage
of what the Steelers have given you. And the Steelers
were a bad team on Sunday. They didn't win the game.
New England lost it. If the Patriots turned the ball
over even once against you know one more time than.

Speaker 7 (01:53:55):
The Bills do, they lose to the Bills.

Speaker 9 (01:53:57):
Sunday's game shows that you can still when with the
craft that gets you beat if you play that much
better than your opponent, but you just can't keep doing it.
And then I'll leave you with that.

Speaker 2 (01:54:08):
Yeah, thanks Sean. Yeah, I think we're in lockstep there.
All right, we have one minute to talk about the
Carolina Panthers. All Right, we're gonna Christian can talk on Unfiltered.
What's your thirty second take on the Carolina Panthers.

Speaker 1 (01:54:21):
I mean, I really hope Christian's alce is back. That's
the big thing for me. I think it's it's Ted
McMillan and Will Campbell. Right, let's see, that was the
big conversation a draft season. I feel like Panthers are
kind of in a similar spot. And as to the Patriots,
like Bryce Young had that good close to the year
last year, you're trying to see, like is he ultimately
the guy? And then if you think he is, if

(01:54:43):
he continues to play, well, okay, well the roster is
still not complete. But who around him are we keeping
as part of this rebuild?

Speaker 2 (01:54:49):
So Ted's looked really good on film.

Speaker 1 (01:54:51):
He's been good.

Speaker 2 (01:54:51):
Yeah, he's been good.

Speaker 1 (01:54:53):
J Coker's good too.

Speaker 2 (01:54:54):
A lot of it he's hurt. Coker ted a lot
of it's translated. He's you know, his sigh, his catch radious,
but also the yards after the catch and the fluidity.
At six foot five, six foot four, he looks the part.
He looks like it's translated.

Speaker 3 (01:55:08):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:55:08):
With that being said, he's the only thing they have
in the passing game. He is a one man show
right now in Carolina in the passing game. So if
you take him away, I don't really know what else
Bryce Young is going to in this game. Bryce Young,
My comp for him right now is righty to u
because he keeps throwing the ball in the middle of
the field, and only the middle of the field. So
short throws middle of the field, take those things away

(01:55:31):
really quickly. On the Panthers defense, they kind of put
Pennix in a blender a little bit last week. He
wasn't seeing the field very well. They'd use a lot
of disguise coverage and post snap rotation and things like that.
If Drake May can keep his wits about him in
this game, then there's gonna be a lot of opportunities
for him. But Pennix couldn't, you know, they really ever

(01:55:52):
ow their defensive coordinator really flustered him and confused him.
So that's the key. You got to keep Drake May's
wits about him. But I think there's going to be
the opportunities for them to move the ball if he
can you know, stay, you know, avoid the blender, as
Rabel likes to say. So that's your Panthers minute. Sorry
we didn't get the more of a Panthers preview for you,

(01:56:13):
but we will surely be talking about the Carolina Panthers
in the game on Sunday on Patriots Unfiltered over the
next couple of days. So Unfiltered is four minutes away,
so don't go anywhere. Alex and I will be back
next week to talk about the Panthers, to talk about
the Buffalo Bills on Sunday Night football Big One in
Orchard Park for the Patriots in week five. We'll see

(01:56:34):
you guys.

Speaker 10 (01:56:35):
Then, Hey, this is Deuce. Thanks for tuning into the show.
If you really want to help us, make sure you
like us wherever you get your podcasts like Apple Podcasts
or Spotify.

Speaker 1 (01:56:46):
Also make sure you follow

Speaker 10 (01:56:47):
Us on the New England Patriots YouTube channel to see
this show and everything else that we do here at
the Patriots, thanks a lot,

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