Patriots Unfiltered 9/23: Steelers Recap, Good/Bad Football, HOF Weekend

Tune-in as the PU crew breaks down the Patriots 21-14 loss to the Steelers in Week 3. They go over the team's reoccurring theme of bad football, and discuss why the Patriots continue to beat themselves with unnecessary mistakes and how they can fix it. They also reflect on the good seen in Drake Maye, offensive scheme, Hunter Henry, and the defense. Plus, they discuss the weekend's Patriots Hall of Fame festivities honoring Julian Edelman and Bill Parcells.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Some of the content of Patriots Unfiltered may not be
suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
The World's a Pigeon podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to Patriots Unfiltered.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
No Socks and myself are going to be sitting down
with Bill Pressells to do a patch for the past episode.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'd be intimidated. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, you know
them though you have a relationship with them, Because I
felt that way, I am not going to be able
to join and I can make it about At this point,
I think I can take.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Them, yeah, like physically, like if it came to that.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
If it doesn't caring him say that, I flashed back
to you know when I played high school football.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
He's always going to make it about him.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
What's this have to do with your It's funny putting.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Sharpness put in. I didn't look it up, so I
don't know if it's true, but everything you read on
the internet sounds true. That ship with the crazy Mike
and Evan at eleven and five, I'm gonna sneeze out
there a good solid record. All I asked day It's
like chicken fingers, Paul, this is Patriot's Unfiltered.

Speaker 5 (01:05):
Presented by Toyota's official website. For deals, buy a Toyota
dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
All right, welcome the Patriots Unfiltered. It is Tuesday here
at Jillette Stadium. We got a lot to unwrap from
this weekend. It was a big weekend here at Jillette Stadium.
We had the Hall of Fame inductions of Bill Parcells
and Julian Edelman on Saturday, and then the game that
we need to unravel on Sunday. We're not gonna quite

(01:33):
look ahead to the Panthers yet today. That's a turn
the page Wednesday. But it's Deuce, it's Evan, it's Paul,
it's me, it's Matt. Now it's in the booth, and uh,
where do we start? I guess Saturday, right, because we're
going to get to Sunday.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
But I thought it was another good day for the organization.
Bill Parcell's coming back. First time he's been here since
I think three when he was coaching, so it was
good to see him.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Paul, is that right, the first time I think he's
actually been here. I think that's amazing. Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Matt and I sat down with him we'll have that
content looking forward to it. Yeah, that was fun. And
Robert Kraft crashed the party, so there was some good
exchange between the two of that.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
That's a good thing. I wasn't here. Yeah, I got
myself in trouble, so that was good.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
And then of course the ceremony is that the bean
done with this speech?

Speaker 6 (02:23):
Yeah, yeah, I've been hearing that joke.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah. Well I like the Rabel joke. But what he's
saying he told him. I guess when he was on
EI he told him, Bro, halftime's only thirteen minutes. Tighten
that up.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, but you know, good for Julian, it's his day.
He had like seventy five friends and family here for it.
It means a lot to him, and that's good to
know that it does mean a lot to him. So
a lot of old alumni here, which was good to see.

Speaker 7 (02:55):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
And then of course the game. Then we get to
the game on Sunday. Well, where do we start turnovers?

Speaker 1 (03:03):
This is an easy one. Yeah, frustrating frustrating turnovers and
that's why you lost. Otherwise, you out played them for
the vast majority of the game and probably should have
won the game. I hesitate to use the word deserve,
because when you turn it over five times, you really
don't deserve to win. But yeah, if they had only
turned it over four times, they probably would have won. Yeah, yeah,

(03:26):
it's true. I mean, the better team. They just kept
shooting themselves in the fourth.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
They were I shared your frustration Fred after the game,
when we were on the postgame show and you were
ready to jump right back out there, and you said
you wanted to go right back out Sunday. I felt similarly,
you know, spending the day reflecting, looking at it a
little bit. You know, I've kind of settled in. I mean,
I think there's enough positive there that you have to
have some patience. And we knew this was going to
be a little bit of a process, and I've seen

(03:50):
enough positive on both sides of the ball too. I'm
sitting there last night watching that game, the track me
back and forth between those two great teams, and I said,
you know, I could maybe see the Patriots playing this
kind of game in a couple of years. You know,
I think there's some foundational pieces that, you know, you
get down that road, maybe you're gonna They're not there yet,
and I don't think if you want to cut Remandra

(04:11):
Stevenson or play Kyle Williams Moore or play after I
don't think any of those things are really going to
make a grand difference and get them to that level
that we.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
Saw from the Ravens and the lines last night.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
But I think what Josh is doing the good stuff
from Drake, some positive strides from the defense, that there's
some good stuff there. And again it's it's I think
it's about patients and getting Drake comfortable and confident.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I just had a different feeling from that game than
I had from games last year. And the difference is
that I could see it was so obvious what they
needed to do to win, which was obviously take care
of the ball that you know, I just want to
get out there and given another shot, give it. You know,
we've all had those things where we've tried in the past,

(04:53):
whether it's a physical endeavor or a test that you
took in school and you didn't do as well as
you thought you could do.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
You let we get away.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, It's like, man, I could have done better, Now
give me another crack at that.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
And that's how I find get away.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, That's that's how I felt coming out of that game,
Give me another shot at that one, you know.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, And last year it was like, can we just
get the season over? Really?

Speaker 8 (05:16):
No?

Speaker 3 (05:16):
I mean I agree with that point, and I mean,
you know, Evan grinded the tape too, But when you
were looking at it in your there's just not a
lot of positive to feel great about and to feel
like you're building some kind of foundation for something better.
And look, it's little pieces here and there, and you
have to go and find them. But at the same time,
three games into the season, they haven't gotten rid of
all the bad characteristics that made them a bad team

(05:39):
the last two years ago, and that's going to be
a little bit of a process.

Speaker 6 (05:42):
Yeah, I just right now on process over results for
the time being. It's it's only three weeks into the season,
only three weeks into Mike Rable's tenure as a head coach.
And at some point we're going to have to look
back December and January and say, well, they averaged twenty
one points a game, nineteen points a game, or whatever
it ends up falling on, and that wasn't good enough

(06:04):
and different things like that. But when you turn on
the film of their offense, I'm just highly encouraged by
Drake May and by Josh McDaniels and the way that
they're running the offense right now, and the scheme is dynamic.
They are catering into Drake May, they are moving the
pocket a lot, they have them in the shotgun a lot.

(06:24):
There's different things that they are doing that is very
highly encouraging that if they can just stop shooting themselves
in the foot and get their own way. There's just
so much great offense that they're putting on tape that
I did not see from this team the last let's
call it two three years.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
See that's and that's I agree, And that's one thing
that I'll push back on youtubes when you say, you know,
we're seeing the same things from last year that kept
them from winning games.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
That's different.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
You know, Well, the hope that I see on the offense,
the identity that I start I'm starting to see emerge
from the offense is not something I saw last year.
And that's giving me encouragement, and it's you know, like,
let's go out there.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
And keep working on that.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
I mean, I agree with you, but I would still
say the little moments that lose you the games are
the little moments last year that preventing you from even
getting on track, you know, So those just I mean, look,
it's knowing fourth and one where you got to get
and knowing the right play and getting the ball over.
You know, fourth and one got to have a moment.
Good teams, when it's on the line, they make those plays.
I agree with your general point. There's positives that I

(07:32):
feel like, you know, Drake looks like he is in
an offense now that can suit him. I still think
they need to really upgrade the talent at the receiver position.
I think that is something that now comes to the
forefront that yes they don't have a down the field option. Uh,
but you know, they just they have to clean up
these little mistakes. And to me, look, Ramondre is the
perfect example because last year he was the poster child
for its seven fumbles. This game you had Vermondre with

(07:54):
two fumbles. So those are the elements I'm looking to
clean up from the last couple of years that has
split I hear.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right that he's had nine fumbles in eighteen games, correct,
that would.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
Make sense.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Games.

Speaker 6 (08:04):
Yeah, all the things that deuc are saying Duce is
saying are all accurate if the only thing that you're
worried about right now is wins and losses, if you
kind of take a step back and look at the
process and the bigger picture of this, which I know
is hard to do. Like we all watch these games
on Sundays, and we all came out of that game
on Sunday frustrated as hell that they just lost that

(08:25):
game to a team that really the Steelers just really
aren't very good.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
And they lost the game.

Speaker 6 (08:30):
But when you look at the different things that they
are doing, I could see six weeks from now that
this offense really might grow exponentially. And I just want
to give Josh McDaniels his flowers, because they don't really
have a ton to work with on offense at the
skill positions, and he has basically schemed this offense around

(08:54):
the two tight ends Henry and Hooper in the running backs,
and that's how they're generating their offense is by running
it through those players. And the things that they have
done to do that, you know, to split back formations
when he has two guys with him in the backfield,
the bootlegs from under center, like these different things that
they've done to scheme open guys, Like there's receivers all

(09:17):
over the tape open all over the place, and like
that I just was not seeing.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
So when you see those guys open, are you also
seeing the exact time in the pocket where they might
be open over here, but he's under pressure over here
and there's no way he can see that.

Speaker 6 (09:34):
Well, I'm talking about open and he's throwing to him.
Oh yeah, Like I'm not talking about like, oh this guy,
because I hear what you're saying, Like he's open on
the other side of the field and there's no way
that Drake May is going to see him. You know,
there's times that they're completing the passes certainly, but even
on some of the incompletions, it's usually not because there's
nobody open right Like I don't see a lot of

(09:55):
dropbacks right now where Drake May is just kind of
looking around, looking around and.

Speaker 9 (09:59):
There's nobody open. I'm not seeing a ton of that.

Speaker 6 (10:02):
And so a lot of that, to me, because the
Duce's point about the receiver talent, I think a lot
of that is McDaniels, Like, I think that he's doing
a really great job of scheming guys open right now
and dressing plays up and coming out in different formations
and unique looks and different things. Like they had that
split back in the gun that produced three huge plays

(10:25):
in the game on Sunday, a touchdown to Hunter Henry,
wheel route to Henry, and then another fifteen yard play
to Henry later on too. That is just good scheme, Like,
it's just good stuff, and they're doing it without really
a ton of vertical stretch to the field either, like
there's nothing really going on down the field, and yet
they're finding ways to get the tight ends and get

(10:48):
the underneath routes into catch and run situations. So I'm
just really excited about what I've seen from all that
now to everything that Duces laid out. They still aren't
making the winning plays, and that's that's frustrating. But if
you take a step back and kind of look at
it big picture, you can see where they're going if

(11:08):
they can just kind of get.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
I agree, and that's what I see. Yeah, And that's
the difference I see from last year.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
I don't want to do a repeat of what we
did in the post game and make this a semantics thing.
I'm more with Mike than with you and Evan it's different.
I agree with you guys. It's different because last year,
when they didn't score as many points as it seems
like they should have, it wasn't because they would turn
the ball over in the end zone twice. I mean,

(11:37):
it's pretty clear in this game, you just hold onto
the ball a little bit and you score twice as
many points and you win the game. I mean, I
think it's pretty obvious. That's why I don't really think
there's a lot of analysis that needs to happen for
this game. You turn it over five times twice in
the end zone, you're going to lose a game that
you probably should have won. Right, Yep, we all agree.
I think last year when they had and they did Yeah,

(12:00):
I know, people don't remember any of the good games
that Drake may had last year, but they did have
some games where they had like four hundred yards of
offense and twenty points and you looked at the end
of the game and you're like, how did they only
score that? It wasn't turnovers necessarily. Last year. It was
more an offensive line breakdown, a holding call once they

(12:20):
got three first downs, and then all of a sudden
they got in field goal ranging then they got pushed
back because back to back holding calls created a third
and twenty five they couldn't convert and they ended up
not scoring any points. On Sunday, it was back to
back first downs, we're going to fumble in the end zone,
or we're going to convert a fourth down with Drake
May making a terrific play around the end and any

(12:42):
fumbles on the next play trying to do too much.
Like there were different reasons, but I'm kind of with Mike,
it's kind of the same result. And if it happens
like Evan said, six weeks from now, you're like, they've
cleaned up those penalties, which are problem every game, they've
cleaned up the opportunities they've started to hold onto the ball.

(13:03):
Then I'll say this is different. But right now I
don't care why you don't score enough points. But the
first game of the first game of the year, it
wasn't turn overs, I agree, but.

Speaker 9 (13:16):
Important like road to nowhere.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
But there's always a why. It's just different. This week
it was turn o. The first week, it was inaccuracy
from the quarterback right the first week, the quarterback was
inaccurate the whole second half. This week it was they
couldn't hold onto the ball. Last year was the offensive
line couldn't go three plays without allowing a sack or
committing a old penalty.

Speaker 4 (13:41):
But there's nothing you can do.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
There's always a why. But I don't remember they eliminate
the why. I can't just say they're going to eliminate
the why evidence.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
But I don't remember many games, if any where, I
came out of it saying we were the better team.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Oh, I can remember games they were better then your
memory better than that. Now they they deserved more points.
That's all I'm saying that they were better, worse, whatever. Again,
I don't want to turn this into a Samantha. To me,
that's a big deal. He played ten games last year.
Four of them they had the same offensive production that
they did on Sunday in no points, just like this,

(14:16):
only it wasn't because they turned it over five times.
It was a different reason why they didn't score points.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, it's always something I get. In order to lose
the game, there has to be reasons, right, But.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Until I see them being able to score points commensurate
with the way they moved the ball, or consistently move
it and produce I'm not going to assume it's going
to happen, but I see, I see the potential. I
think Drake May has played better this year than last year.
That's the one difference. Well then that's a big difference. Yeah,
a huge difference, of course it is. But he hasn't
played at a high enough level too.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
But I see the potential for it turning around.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
The last two games he's played better, I think than
he did in most of the games last year. That's
the first game he didn't So that's three games.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
This will went to the season saying that's number one
seeing improvement from him.

Speaker 6 (15:01):
Yeah, right right, I just think if you know, I
hear what Paul is saying, I do. I just last
year their offensive line.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
Was the achilles heel, no doubt, but it was.

Speaker 6 (15:14):
An achilles heel that could not be fixed in season
they had. They did not have the talent, the requisite
talent on the offensive line.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
To make it better.

Speaker 6 (15:22):
Right, like Trey Jacobs, Inviterian Lower, you're starting tackles.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
And Will Campbell and Morgan Moses are better players than that.

Speaker 6 (15:28):
That's not going anywhere. Remondros Stevenson not fumbling the ball
going into the end zone is something that is not
the same as like, these two tackles are not NFL
caliber starting tackles, and we can't IVI this not the
same as season. So like, I think that's just where. Yeah,
if you want to sit here and say, you know,
they only scored fourteen points, it's not enough points obviously,

(15:51):
but they have the potential to be have a much
higher ceiling with what they're putting on film now than
what they were doing over the last couple of years.
And it's pretty cut and dry, I think, like just
looking even at the advanced stats of it all, like
Drake May right now is eighth in the league and
expected points added per dropback, He's a top ten quarterback

(16:12):
in the NFL.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Balls call me when you start scoring points.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
I get it.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
I'm going to work with you to help you score points.
I'm more sympathetic.

Speaker 9 (16:20):
I get he's not wrong. I'm just telling you.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
I'm not like you, guys. I can't tell what's going
to happen. I can only go by what has happened.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
I know, but you know, part of our job is
to see what might happen and try to guess.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
And I but if I'm going to go by what
I'm going to guess is something different's going to happen
in two weeks. So, yeah, we haven't seen you, so
you're you're Because I don't think they're good enough offensively,
I don't. I don't think they're good enough offensively as
professionals because they don't make it and they don't get
any chunks. They don't make anything easy.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, I think the chunks are going to come. Okay,
I think that's going to open eventually, you know. I
think he wants to get this stuff right first, and
then teams are going to have to start defending this
and then he'll open it up.

Speaker 6 (17:06):
The chunks is interesting because I actually did some some numbers.

Speaker 9 (17:10):
On that.

Speaker 6 (17:12):
They are getting a decent amount of chunk plays, but
their chunk plays they're not as chunky as other teams.
So the word I use was like, their explosives aren't explosive.
So they're actually generating the seventh most explosive plays in
the NFL for the first three weeks in the season.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
So what's the definition of an explosive play plus twenty
plus twenty in the past now, is that in the
air or that's a catch?

Speaker 1 (17:37):
No, just has to be in the air.

Speaker 6 (17:38):
No, it's just a twenty yard play. Okay, Well, I
don't know what the difference is.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Well, like if guy breaks five tackles, then in your definition,
that becomes an explosive play if he gets over twenty.

Speaker 9 (17:48):
Yards, yeah, because it's supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
To me, that's not an explosive play. Okay. Anyways, it's
not just you know what I mean.

Speaker 6 (17:56):
No, Okay, if you get if you get twenty plus
ards on a play, it's twenty plus yards.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (18:02):
So the explosive plays, they're seventh in the league in
explosive place, but they're thirtieth in the league and average
yards on those explosive plays, so they're not getting.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Big play point.

Speaker 6 (18:15):
So like they are getting twenty yards at a time
on some of these chunk plays, but they're not getting
fifty yards at a time, right, So like that I
think is yeah, maybe where your thing comes into it.
Where like when Rabel says we're not getting enough explosive plays,
which is what led me down this rabbit hole.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
He's talking about like.

Speaker 6 (18:35):
The fifty five yard completion to Remandre in Miami whips
the field, right, He's not talking about the twenty three
yard completion to Remondre on the third down in last
week's game, like that, that is to him and to you,
that's not truly That's a catch and run underneath kind
of play that goes for twenty three yards and not
truly an explosive play. And I think that that's the

(18:57):
big difference right now at their offense. They're way I
would like, they are getting chunk plays, but they're not
getting explosive plays, and that I think is like a
tough line to draw.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
But but I also think it's tough because I agree
with everything you said about the offensive game plans the
last two weeks and how effective they've been. I think
that's also a hard thing to do every week, is
to have to rely on having the perfect setups and
sequences to plays to get Hunter Henry, you know, free

(19:29):
free up the sideline for that wheel route, and to
get Remondre Stevenson for that twenty like that. That's hard.
That's hard when you can't just say, you know what,
at some point, we're just gonna give the ball to
Jamier Gibbs and he's gonna make three guys miss and
he's gonna be able to pick up a first down.
Or you know, we're gonna send our you know, elite
wide receiver, you know, and he's gonna beat I don't

(19:49):
care if they haven't double cover, but he's gonna he's
gonna win those we don't have. We don't have that guy,
enough of those kinds of players yet. Yeah, it doesn't
mean that you'll never have it. To to Mike's point,
I think at the start of the show, you said, like,
I could envision something like what we watched last night
a year or two down the road, if they can
get some explosive playmakers, and who knows, maybe Kyle Williams

(20:12):
would be one of those guys. It's the whole Ex's
and O, Jimmy's and Joe's thing, right, And I agree
with everything that Evan said about Josh McDaniels and the effect,
and I think he's getting everything that he can out
of what he has. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 4 (20:23):
I mean he is.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Absolute that wholeheartedly.

Speaker 6 (20:26):
He has absolutely taken every single thing that he can
leverage against the defense, and he's used it, like whether
it's formations, it's Drake May's mobility, it's I mean, like
they're doing everything they can to move the football schematically.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
The other thing is that I would worry about and
again this is admitted admittedly that I worry about a
lot of crap that most people probably don't. They're relying
right now on as I said, you know, scheme, and
they leaning on those two tight ends. What you know,
Hunter Henry gets banged up in that game the other day, right,
what if he's you know, at less than one hundred percent,

(21:01):
what if he can't go in one of these games.
He seems to be a huge part of what they're
trying to do. I'd like to see if yeah, yeah,
And I'd like to see if Diggs could could maybe
sort of emerge. I thought the kinds of catches Digs
are is making, I expected. I just thought there'd be
more of them, you know, Fred says, you know, like

(21:22):
the volume hasn't been there. I just wonder if maybe
they can continue to to evolve.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
I think, I mean, that's what's apparent to me is
just I think reality hits home.

Speaker 4 (21:36):
You have a set of opinions.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
You come to in the summer when you watch these guys,
and for me watching Stefan Diggs was kind of eye
opening in the summer, and then you get into these
games and you realize this isn't quite back to what
even Stefan Diggs was last year coming off in a
cl uh. But when you look at you know, Booty
and the other guys, Pop Douglas is inconsistencies they it's

(21:59):
starting to be laring to me of what it's the
same old thing. And I think it's the core of
your argument, Paul, is just they don't have the horses
to support Drake quite yet and the way that they
need to. And when I look at Detroit now where
they've arrived and think back a couple of years ago
when Dan Campbell arrived and they were first starting to
build it, and you know, you see each year they're
adding talented guys who are now making big plays for them.

(22:22):
And that's what you have to build around Drake to
make a really functional football team, not just a team
with a few pieces of talent that you know, you
feel good about and you think are going to have
good NFL careers.

Speaker 9 (22:31):
Especially the deep passing game like they have.

Speaker 6 (22:33):
They really don't have any vertical stretch to the offense
right now, and that goes back to the exposive plays thing.
They really just don't I mean Drake May is only
attempting a deep pass on six percent of his dropbacks,
and that's not a Drake May problem.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
Like we all know the Booty, right, I mean, like
Booty and maybe one to I don't know, it's it's
not one other one and and they don't really have
on paper.

Speaker 6 (22:58):
It's kind of hard unless Kyle Williams really starts to emerge.
It's kind of hard to see where they could that
could come from with the current group.

Speaker 9 (23:08):
That they have out there.

Speaker 6 (23:09):
Like I don't think that that's Mac Collins digs in
Booty's game is you know, being able to really get
behind the defense and stretch it vertically. So Kyle Williams
is the one guy that that maybe could do something
like that, but he's a rookie and we'll see.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
So I want to tie in Saturday to Sunday a
little bit. And you know, we all saw Rabel after
the game address, you know, the Ramandre Stevenson issues, Like,
you know, guys, twenty minutes after the game, I don't
know what I'm going to do yet, And I was
thinking to myself, this is a time where you could
use Bill Parcells. Bill Parcells would know what to do.

(23:52):
Unlike Bill Belichick, everything's black and white, just bencham, you know,
just get him out of the game. I think Parcels
might have some clever way of getting through to him.
And I don't want to give up on ramondre Stevenson.
We need him, you know, just like Rabel said, I
don't want to just you know, forget about him.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
But I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
I think you need somebody like a Bill Parcells who
has all those years of experience, He's probably seen this
before several times and knows how to get through to
a player, you know when something like this.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Yeah, or knows when you can't get through to a
player or just h. I mean, you guys always use
that they don't bite his puppies. They're not going to
bite his dogs. Is this connected to another thing of
Parcelves where it's said, at a certain point, a guy's
just fumble prone, and that's how it is, and he's
not gonna be able to fix it.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
He'll quit put.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Mike and I said this on the post Game show.
I'm going to repeat it now because I know sometimes
people aren't necessarily listening on Sundays. I wouldn't release him.
I would not release Stevenson right now. However, I could
make a really strong argument for it. And it's kind
of what Mike just said. If you had a quarterback,
if Drake May, would you say right now, Drake May

(25:06):
is emerging but still kind of mistake prone. Yes at times? Yes, Right,
let's just fast forward three years and put him in
year five. If he was still doing what he did
in the fourth quarter, wouldn't you say we got to
move on. We got to get another guy, We got
to bench him. It's Daniel Jones with the Giants. We're
going to bench him. He's he's not getting any better,
like we have doing it. But for some reason, it's

(25:28):
Rimandri Stevenson. It's a running back. We can't somehow well
they need him. They can't get guy without it with
another running back in there.

Speaker 4 (25:36):
And it gets tough because he's.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
He's definitely tough.

Speaker 6 (25:39):
He's one of their best skilled players and he is.
And besides, don't worry, but this is just Mike and I.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
We have a show. We have a show going.

Speaker 6 (25:50):
Besides Hunter Henry like he's he's really when he's kind
of stirring the drink right now, and the game in
Miami is like the p of what it can be with.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Player on the fields. Player on the field.

Speaker 6 (26:05):
It's it's such a big part of what they're trying
to do schematically is running it through.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
Here's what I worry about is, let's just say that
there is some technique that Rabel or one of the
coaches gives to Remandre.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
I look at Stephen Ridley.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
He had a fumbling problem and he kind of corrected it,
but it affected his running game. It affected how he
ran with the you know, with the abandoned and I
think he was never the same after that, after he
had those problems. I don't think he ever became the
same runner again.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah. I don't really remember enough, but you're probably right.
And I would just say to when we talked on
the post game, I wouldn't release him, as I said, but.

Speaker 4 (26:48):
I would this week flip flop the roles.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
I would have Gibson as the lead back this week
and have Stevenson as the guy who comes in, you know,
to spell him and keep Henders in his third down roll, who,
by the way, needs to improve in that role too.

Speaker 7 (27:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Right, that's certainly got to improve is his past protection.
If he's going to stay out there and that they're
a down roll. That's another part we get to the points.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
I just I want to make one more point though,
reminder real quick, was that I thought Brabil was interesting
yesterday when asked with that, and he said something to
the effect of, We're just going to continue to practice it.
That's all I know how to do, practice the crap
out of it. And to me, it's like kind of
like we we keep not what do you do? What
do you do? And Brabil's way of answering that question
of saying, the only thing I know how to do.

(27:35):
You know, it's it's not a little story or put
your thumb here, or you know, let me tell you
about this player like, it's not a little mental thing like.
And the second part of it for me is you
heard the Steelers players all talk about we knew it,
and so how does it feel, as reminder Stevenson knowing
that every game you're going to go into right now,
they are coming to punch that ball out every single.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
By the way, I don't know if you guys caught
Tomlin he said in particular, Yeah, he said it about
Stevenson about May two. Oh yeah, yeah, no, no, well
he's right, So he's into it. And they said that
they felt like they could get the ball loose in him,
that he fumbles, he's loose in the pocket, and he is.

(28:16):
And again it's year two for him. He's clearly established
starting quarterback. He's going nowhere. But if we're having these
same conversations three years down the road and you're a
year five, year six like Stevenson, yeah, Like that's why
I don't think it's I wouldn't release Stevenson, but I
don't think it's outrageous to suggest that that might be

(28:37):
the best course.

Speaker 6 (28:38):
I just think it's tough because of the player, the
other two running backs, Like.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
If they had that's a great point or at.

Speaker 6 (28:44):
The position, I would feel more confident in it. But
Gibson put the ball on the ground too, and.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
By the way, has a fumbling history, maybe not as
much here, but that's why he's no longer in Washington.

Speaker 6 (28:56):
Yeah, he you know, he puts the ball on the
ground also, And then trey On it's super talented, but
right now he looks like a rookie, like he game's
moving really fast for him when he's running the ball
between the tackles, you know, he's running into crowds. He's
running into piles instead of finding the creases and seeing
the cutback lanes, and like he's right now, he's got

(29:18):
he's one track, right, he's got tunnel vision for the field.
And the pass protection stuff too has been obviously up
and down, but they gave him more carries in this
game after all the fumbling by the two lead guys
and watching some of those carries, you know, he just
he seeks contact where I think he's the type of
running back that should be trying to run to daylight.

(29:40):
He's running into people and it's like trying, like why
aren't you using your speed to run away from people
instead of doing the other things. So if they if
I had more confidence in Gibson and Travon Henderson, then
it would be an easy choice to bench for Mandre.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
I saw some of the sending me yesterday like they
need to unleash Travon Henderson.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
And two points keep reading it.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
First one is that Remandra Stevenson leads the team with
thirty two touches, trading on second with thirty, so he's
got two off of most touches on the whole offense
and everything. Evan just said again, going back to feeling,
you give one impression of a guy in training camp
and then it kind of changes. You know, I thought
he's electric, he's amazing in space, no one's going to
touch him.

Speaker 4 (30:19):
And then we get to the games and he's very linear.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
He doesn't really have a jump step, move, slide to
the right, make guy miss.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
He kind of lowers the shoulder and tries to go
right through guys.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
You said, I think Paul in the press box, this
is why he had some injury issues. I feel like
he's still a rookie, he's still developing. We need to
have the same thoughts with him as we do with
Will Campbell, where yeah, there's some good and some bad
and we just have to live with some of that
right now.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
But I don't know what.

Speaker 4 (30:43):
It means to unleash trading on him.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
I've read it several times. I agree with you, Mike,
and I think sometimes, you know, you have that splash
in the summer and he returns the opening kick of
the first preseason game and everybody's like, wow, you know,
I can't wait, and then it's not that it's not
that easy. I think Evan talked about like the game
moving a little fast. I have not lost any faith

(31:07):
or excitement or optimism for Traveon Henderson. But I don't
and I've said this all summer. I don't think he's
in every down back. I don't think he will be
in every down back. Now, maybe he will be, maybe
he'll be like Jamiir Gibbs where he sort of starts
off in this secondary role and then emerges as more
than that. I don't think that he will. Because of

(31:28):
his size. Yeah, Now he's not that much different in
size to Gibbs.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
Is he really? I was just wondering that.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
But he looks small, but Gibbs, Yeah, I don't think
there's a huge difference in their size, you know, as
John Gruden would say, and I bet if you look
that up the fast or back it up John grudinism.
But when he was the every down guy at Ohio State,

(31:54):
he broke down. And that's why they went out and
spent all that money on Quinn Shawn Judkins. I know
that sounds silly college, but that's the way it is,
and that's the modern game. And Judkins sort of handled
it between the tackle stuff and allowed Henderson to be
more productive than he had been with fewer touches because
he's so electric in space. And I still think that

(32:15):
he has that potential. He brings that potential for the offense.

Speaker 6 (32:18):
Yeah, I just I would like to see him just
paste the runs out a little bit better. Like he
is all gas, no breaks right now, where like he's
he doesn't really let things develop in front of him.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
He just goes one hundred.

Speaker 6 (32:31):
Percent right into the line of scrimmage. And a big
part of playing running back is like when to let
off the gas pedal and when to go down on
the gas pedal, and that that's something that he can
learn hopefully. Yeah, like that, that's too much diability, too
much the kind of tempo runs and know when you
can be patient and know when to slow play it

(32:51):
and then when that.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
Hole opens you hit it. Like that.

Speaker 6 (32:55):
That's the type of things that that really make great
running back.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
All right, defense better, we got to get Gonzo back. Yeah,
but better this week? Defense the best out of the
three games.

Speaker 10 (33:06):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Now the worst offense you played in the three games too,
but better? Yeah, yep. They the team in the game
with all those turnovers. I mean it's a little I
mean I know that they didn't necessarily get put in
a lot of bad spots, Like two of the fumbles
came in the end zone. One of them came at
the end of the half, so there's not even a
possession that follows it. They did allow fourteen points off

(33:29):
of the four turn let's count the four turnovers because
one of them ended the half. But they were better
in this game. I thought against the run, I thought
some of the changes that Evan and Mike talked about
about the five man lines, yeah, you know, I think
the subtle changes in personnel here and there, hellis out
gibbons in. I thought they were they were pretty physical

(33:53):
in the up front and the run game. They really
were physical. Yeah, And I will say that like it
was the best performance, but I wouldn't say this was
a great performance defensive. Now, again, this is the second
time in three weeks you allow an opening drive touchdown. Yeah.

Speaker 9 (34:08):
The game plans out of the shoot have not been Yeah.

Speaker 6 (34:11):
Great, the adjustments have been really good, and which is promising.
I give them a lot of credit for that. But
this week, you know, they opened in two high safety
with three corner Nickel and the Steelers just ran him
over on the opening drive. I mean it was not
overly competitive on the opening drive on the ground, and
then eventually, you know, they put Dugger in. They went

(34:33):
three safety and they put Dugger in, and then they
put a little bit more Tonga, who I think Tongo
was underrated, Yeah, a little bit more. And then in
the second half Jack Gibbons played over Ellis. But like
they got there eventually, But the start was Jalen Warren
right down your throats, all the way down the field.
I think it was six out of the first eight
plays for the Steelers were run plays, and they ran

(34:55):
it right down the Patriots throat. So I don't know
why in this game with Rogers. I guess it was
out of respect for Rogers, I suppose, but like you
open in light personnel and then you empty the box
and you just kind of let him run it down
your throat.

Speaker 4 (35:10):
It was weird.

Speaker 6 (35:11):
Now they adjusted and settled down, but can't get down
fourteen to nothing. Yeah, but you know, it's tough to
play like that.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
No splain was the splaining that you kind of thought
you were going to get wasn't perfect, but you know,
nice interception, good zone awareness on that.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, he was better there.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
You know, I thought the I mean Ellis going back
missed a couple of tackles, I mean tackles that he
probably should have made. I think that I think that
was a curious move to me in the offseason anyway,
Like he we've talked about that.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
I just wonder if Tavia would be in that spot.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Just going to say that, I wonder if Tavia can
can offer them at least at least a third option
to give them some size. I think Gibbons is kind
of what he is, He's kind of what Ellis is.
I think those guys are, you know, good hard playing
special teamers, but you know, I don't know if they
have the instincts and the tackling ability to do what
these guys are going to ask them. And the last
part I point, I just make his outs Austin getting
kind of yanked after another.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
They're tough outing from him.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Really had a good summer again, going back to impressions
you have in the summer. In three games in you
feel like they've been turned upside down. Not a great
start for him, and I think that's been a little
bit part of their pass struggles. Charles Woods comes in.
We'll see how those things developed this week.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
But you know, that's what happens when you lose your
best player. It's a domino of a trickle effect up
and Austin's probably not in a role.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
And that's what I wonder fred Gonzo comes back, and
then maybe Austin plays a little on the slot like
I started to sehim towards the end of the summer.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
Maybe that helps everybody, and you know, Marcus Jones.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
And in this game, it didn't kill them because I
don't think it's an overly productive passing game with Rogers.
Rogers came exactly as advertise.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Bengals with their receivers and now you're in trouble, you know,
but those guys.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
But the way the game Rogers just couldn't like you
still saw like his ability to throw the two touchdown
passes were, especially the last one, which unbelievable. But there's
so much like any time they didn't have a tremendous
amount of pressure on him in this game, but anytime
they got near him, it was just like, well, that's

(37:08):
the thing.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
You didn't have the pressure, but he thought you you know,
like the way he just throws off his back.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Foot, and they had some like I'm not you know,
I thought Landry and Chase on you know, you know,
showed up a little bit. I mean, I know they
didn't have any sacks per se, but they I think
they affected him on the pick. I think Chason affected
him on that throat. He was getting the ball out
quick a lot too. I mean you thought about that.
I mean, I think the touchdown throw was like under
like one point.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
I mean, it just caught him, you know, I mean
it was great play.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
But I would say those guys have been really fun
for me defense guy, getting to watch Mill Williams and
Herold Landry this year. I just think those guys are
exactly as advertised, you know, not a statistically productive day
for Milton Williams, but he you can just tell.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
I noticed that he's a problem.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
I noticed him a little bit, I think, I think,
and I think you wrote in your further view that
get a little more double teams to you know, maybe
that then Lousen's bar one and they're showing up in
the run game, which well that's one of the biggest things.

Speaker 4 (38:01):
I mean, what do you think about that. I mean,
they have a lot one hundred yard rush yet and
I like I hesitate to be like.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
They have a great run defense, but I think we
all really yes, very surprising.

Speaker 6 (38:11):
I mean last week wasn't as good, but for the
first three weeks of the season, they're number one in
the league and run stop win Right, they have one
of the best run defenses in the NFL statistically. Now
it's it's a little boomer bust because of how aggressive
they are against the run. So they're like back dooring
a lot of blocks and things like that and kind
of just flying up the field so if you miss them,
you know, I.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Just felt that was going to be a problem heading in.

Speaker 4 (38:33):
I thought it was a little.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Undersized, and it really it really hasn't been to your
point of when it has been a problem, they've been
able to show that they have the ability to adjust.

Speaker 4 (38:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (38:43):
I saw that the running game early on in the
game on the first couple of drives, Like, to me,
that was coaching, like, why are you playing two high safeties?

Speaker 9 (38:51):
This is not m VP Aaron Rodgers.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
And I'm gonna pick That kind of happened in all
three games where there was some initial success on the
ground and then and they just made a couple of
changes and that was it. Yeah, Now it took longer
to Evans Point in Miami. It didn't happen until the
second half. But the Raiders, it was like the first
three carries for Genti and then after that he got
completely shut down with Warren and gain Well, it was

(39:15):
the first drive and then they kind of got shut
down the rest of the game. E Chan had success
into the second half and then they shut him down
when the game was on the line.

Speaker 11 (39:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:24):
No, the run defense has been pretty good.

Speaker 6 (39:26):
It's cool to watch how they play run defense versus
how Bills, you.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
Know, hold the wall and two gaps.

Speaker 6 (39:32):
Now they're just there up the field, like especially the
edges are just flying up the field and they're making
plays on the other side of the line of scrimmage,
which I think is is good. You're getting into a
lot of like second and twelve's and things like that
because you're getting tackles for loss on first down. So
the defense, once they kind of figured it out that
Rogers stinks like Rogers, we can say it like he's done,

(39:55):
like he's watched, like he's not good anymore. Once they
kind of figured that out, they were like, oh wait,
like this guy, I don't want to sit in this
pocket anymore. So we're just gonna, you know, put the
other safety in the box and we're gonna stop the run.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
I gave one caveat to Mike on Rogers just if
Pittsburgh somehow manages to win games and they're in it,
I will say, like, maybe if you get to week twelve,
week thirteen and they're you know, right in the mix
of the player, maybe Rogers says, this is my last year.
We got a chance to do something, maybe I'll start trying.

(40:27):
Because I'm telling you, he looks it doesn't have that
dog on them like you guys were, like you were
joking about the leveon bell, you know, the patients, Like
Aaron Rodgers is the leve on bell of quarterbacks. Like
nothing to worry about here, Yeah, Like, I'm just gonna
with the play clock wind down. I have no urgency calls.
I have no urgent yet one. But like he just
like no urgency. He gets those delay calls. They go

(40:49):
up tempo a lot. How many times did they get
right on the ball in the game, like no huddle quick,
you know, and they still run the play clock down incessantly.

Speaker 6 (41:00):
I just that's him to me, that was the most
frustrating part of losing this game is I really do
not think much of Aaron Rodgers at this point, and
to lose to that guy like.

Speaker 9 (41:09):
He was nothing and you just you you gave him
the game.

Speaker 4 (41:14):
I will give him his props like touchdowns.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
The game winning touchdown pass was an extended handoff. I mean,
you couldn't he made couldn't make that any more perfect.
And I know the other one on that drive was
an easy throw, but picked him apart right up the
middle at the little dump like almost like a skinny
post to a running back like I think it was
Warren from fifteen. I mean, he did that with his brains.

Speaker 6 (41:41):
He's a Hall of Famer first ballot, all those types
of things, and not trying to be disrespectful, but.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
I am just this point.

Speaker 6 (41:47):
It just was so frustrating because he came as exactly
like Paul said, he was exactly as advertised. I knew
that they didn't have to be afraid of Aaron Rodgers
and he wasn't good and they had him and they
just let him off the man.

Speaker 4 (42:00):
It was, Yeah, they really.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Did it, and it's who we thought he was.

Speaker 6 (42:05):
Yeah, and that whole team, like that whole team is mediocre.
Tomlin is just another nine and eight season for them,
and it's just like you had him.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
You had him.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
I'll give you that. You want to talk about the
optimism part, which I am. I am largely on board
with because I think all the things that we said
the Patriots did wrong and you still have the ball
infield goal range in a tie game halfway through the
fourth quarter, right, So I think there's reason to sit
there and say, well, I can make an argument for
the glass being half full. I can do that. But

(42:38):
if that's not I that's no. If that's a nine
and eighteen, Fred, I can understand why people think the
Patriots should be a nine and eight team or you know,
or something like that and be in the hunt quote.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Unquote, yeah, all right, what do you think Evan and
I are overall optimistic?

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Paul and do so not?

Speaker 4 (43:02):
Still very negative.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
This is why I want to get into a semantics argument,
because I knew you would do that. So I just
got finished telling you why there's a reason for optimism.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Eighty five to five pass five hundred is the hot line.
Let's go to Alex and San Diego.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
What's up Alex, Hey, guys, what's going on.

Speaker 12 (43:18):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you guys more. I mean
here with what you're saying earlier. I mean, this year
is already way easier to watch in the last two.
There's already a lot to feel good about, even if
we did turn it over five times. But Paul, I
know you love naming games, and this easily goes down
as so called the fumble game. But man, I don't
know if this was brought during the postgame show. And

(43:39):
granted it works, so we aren't really talking about it,
But what are you guys thoughts on going for it
on fourth and one from your own fifteen yard line
here in the second quarter. I just felt like that
was something like Britain didn't care for it and really
almost put the game out of reach.

Speaker 6 (43:52):
So I'm glad somebody brought it up because this is
something that makes me happy. Okay, the Patriots are nerds
and I love it. The Patriots are nerds.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
The analytics favors that.

Speaker 6 (44:04):
Analytics favored all five of their decisions to go for
it on fourth down in this game.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Thanks Alex.

Speaker 6 (44:09):
And he has a Rabel. When I say he, Rabel
has been lockstep with the nerds. On all of his
fourth down decisions through three games, even like last week
they were going to go for it on fourth and
two and they got pushed back to fourth and second.
It was kick on fourth and seventh and go on
fourth and two. So he is the models are exactly

(44:30):
with stretching Rabel on all these decisions.

Speaker 9 (44:33):
They are nerds and it is awesome.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
So you have to explain to me how the analytics
favors that, and I'm m say, I don't know. At
the time, I was like, I don't know if I
want to do this, you'll go forward or not go
So I'm being honest, I was I did not have
an opinion in the moment. But tell me why the
analytics favor is going for it on your own fifteen.

Speaker 6 (44:53):
Well, I think most of it is that fourth and
one has a probably close to a nine twenty percent
success rate league wide, So you have to consider the
down and distance like it's only one yard and so
that's a big part of it. Like when you look
at a lot of these analytic models, especially when you're
I mean that one's way backed up, but if you're

(45:14):
over your own fifty yard line, usually they anything less
than fourth and two as it go, because the numbers
are just if you're playing the odds.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Like field position. Absolutely, but but like.

Speaker 6 (45:27):
When we're talking just about distance to the sticks, yeah,
like with anything within like one or two yards, but
league wide, these.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Models take anything else into consideration in the distance.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Because it's only one yard. But if you don't get it,
they only have fifteen.

Speaker 9 (45:41):
I'm not going to do the whole like what avenge
of the nerds thing?

Speaker 4 (45:44):
No, I'm not doing it.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
I'm not doing that either. I just would say I
want you because I know you immediately go to the models.
I'm sitting next to you, and you know we were
talking about I think in the moment all three of
us didn't agree with it. I will say that it
was ballsy. But I want you to now when the
model says not to go for it, because I think
the model always says to go for well, I just

(46:06):
give an example, because it always is like a yard
or two in the percentages that you're going to get
it right.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
Well, my question for if it was, where does the
model change. Is it fourth and two from your fifteen?
Is it fourth and three from your fifteen? Like at
what point? Usually too flip?

Speaker 6 (46:22):
But I think in this case. I think in this
case it was really just that it was a yard.
But I just gave you an example last week in
Miami on fourth and two in Miami, on that field
goal decision, they were it's clear go on fourth and two.
When they got the fall Star penalty and it went
to fourth and seven, it was clear kick. So that's

(46:42):
exactly they took the offense off the field and they
ran Borgalis on the field on fourth and seven.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
And I would have actually gone for that fourth and seven.
I said it last week. But yeah, on my own
fifteen yard line in a fourteen to seven game. I
don't think there's enough on these percentages that weigh the
risk and rewards. Like so, if I get a yard,
I'm still on my own sixteen yard line. If I
don't get the yard, which I'm sorry happens from time

(47:10):
to time. I saw Derek Henry get stuffed from the
one yard line three straight plays last night, arguably the
best short yardage back in the history of football. Right,
So you can get stopped, You get stopped in the
fifteen and handing at least three points to the other
team for nothing, right, Because I mean, that's a needless,
reckless decision because I was.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Thinking like analytics had nothing to do with that decision.
That was Oh no, I agree with.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
That was all.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
That was more of a feeling for the like if
I need to take a chance, because I you know,
that's how I felt, you know, I.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Mean, I like going forward on fourth down as a
general rule, So I do like that change in the league.
Very risky. Detroit last night could not possibly agree more.
Fourth and two? Was it from there? From like midfield
with a seven point lead. Absolutely, I'm going to end
the game right here. I would do that that I
told you I would have gone for the fourth and seven,

(48:03):
even after the full start. I want to end the
game on offense, not rely on my defense apps every time. Now,
if I'm on my own thirteen yard line, that's different.
Like Bill's decision on his own twenty eight that year.
Fourth and two. I know he says it was one,
but it wasn't. No, That to me is recklessly putting
the game in danger. Kevin Fock had that, by the way,

(48:25):
if he didn't bobble it, he would have.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
So I want to just be clear.

Speaker 6 (48:31):
The fourth and one from the fifteen decision was very,
very close to a coin flip on the model, so
like it's ballsy.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
So that's taken by the European model.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
It was if it was fourth and one from the
Steelers fifteen, I'm gonna guess it would have been like
an eighty five percent go clear like that.

Speaker 6 (48:50):
But like fourth and one from like that, that takes
some Cohona's Like.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
That's not no doubt.

Speaker 6 (48:55):
The analytics model is not saying like this is you
have to go for this, this is it's that was ballsy,
I think so. But the other four, I mean, obviously
they one of the end of the game, you have
to but like the other three, let's call it, we're
all pretty distinctly clear God situations and uh vrabel stretch.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
I love you, I love it. You know.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Question it doesn't have to be exactly what the Lions are.
But I remember when they came here a few years ago,
when Dan Campbell first took over, and it was kind
of stupid the amount of fourth downs they were trying.
They were mocked, and probably rightly so to that extreme
nature that they were using it. But I also look
at it as Dan Campbell with a young team at
that point, and he's trying to say this is the
kind of team we're gonna be and I and that
to me is also an element of Rabel going for

(49:38):
it there with a young team. Look, this isn't they're
not going to win or lose the game or you know,
this isn't gonna be decided by this game or this
four down And because that's part of it for me too,
I don't think he's going to get to that stupid,
crazy nature that we've seen the Lions go to at times.
But I like the fact that he's gonna put that
belief in his team, like everything that they killed Bill
for when he did in an Indy doesn't believe in

(49:59):
his defense, doesn't trust them, you know those things Like
I just I like I like the aggressiveness.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
I like to see how Mike.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Rabel's going to be to me in that situation on
your own fifteen. Forget about analytics. You have to have
the feeling, Yeah, you know, that has to be a
gut feeling of where the game is going, how my
team is performing, who I have at my disposal. To me,
it can't be an analytics call when you're on your

(50:27):
own fifteen.

Speaker 6 (50:28):
I mean, I think they have to really I think
I think there were definitely that one in particular.

Speaker 9 (50:33):
There definitely was a gut element for Rabel.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
There has to be.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
But with that being said, I just.

Speaker 6 (50:39):
I've looked at all of their fourth down decisions for
the first three games, and they are they are lockstep
with the analytics models every single decision that they.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Like that, you know what. I think league wide it's
like that.

Speaker 6 (50:50):
Now it's getting there, But the Patriots have not been there.
Under Built and under Drod Mayo, they were not an
analytically driven team with their decision making. So this is
definitely different. And I think the one thing that is
probably more important than the actual decisions themselves is there's
a method to the madness. And if you're consistent with
the method, this is the Detroit thing. Like, if you're

(51:12):
consistent with the method, then at least you have a plan.

Speaker 4 (51:17):
Like you were.

Speaker 6 (51:18):
I think what coaches get into trouble is when they're
flying by the seat of their pants on it.

Speaker 4 (51:22):
Get your point, and.

Speaker 6 (51:24):
So the fact that they have a method and a
model and a consistent way to do things is good.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
The last thing you want is your team on the
field going we're going for it.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
Detroit's biggest strength is they know going in what you're
doing right, and it goes down to everything. It's like
it's third and seven. Well, I'm the offensive coordinator. I
know that I don't have to call a play to
get eight yards here because I'm going for it on
fourth down. I already know that. The players already know that.
There's no confusion. Last night you watch them and again,

(51:56):
it's great when it works right. Everything looks great. The
little option play they ran in the goal line on
fourth and goal. Did you see that one little hand
to on ross Saint Brownie right and then he pitches
it out for an easy time. Those are all great
when they work right. You know when Lamar Jackson's running
a little like Zone Reid on fourth and goal from
the one, and they sniff it out and he ends
up getting tackled and worse, ends up fumbling. So the

(52:19):
one thing about going for it on fourth and goal
from the one, what do you say be even if
he gets stopped they're on the one. Yeah, no, I'm steadying.
You fumble and you give it to them on the
twenty and it defeats the whole purpose.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
I wonder what the feelings is the vibes are like
now in Detroit with the fourth down stuff. If the
team that's like you said, like they know they're going,
it's part of their identity. They're even more confident now
when they go for it. And maybe even when the
analytics are saying no, they're saying, so here's the problem.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
You know, and I'll let you Hey, we both come
from different spots. I get it. Like the model is
situated as such. It's just like the two point conversion chart.
Everybody has a chart. Yep. Those percentages are born out
over huge sample sizes. The Detroit Lions cost themselves a

(53:08):
trip to the Super Bowl because they were slaves to
their numbers two years ago or whenever it was three
years ago. The other they lost a game that they
absolutely had no business losing in San Francisco because they
absolutely refused to kick field goals. So you can have
a chart and you can be right on your percentages.

(53:31):
That's small consolation. When the one time I needed to
pick up the yard, I didn't, and instead of being
up seventeen in the second half of the NFC Championship game,
I leave the door open and I end up losing.
Like that's those are the ones I don't think Rabel
would do because I think if a Fred's thing that
he would, common sense might prevail on his head a

(53:53):
little bit faster. I don't think he's a slave to
it as necessarily as as much as sometimes the Lions are.
But I think the one thing I would also say
about the Lions thing is that they now know that
they have to have like a bunch of fourth and
one and fourth and two plays because they're going to
go for it.

Speaker 6 (54:10):
So now they have all these great play designs that
they can pull out in these situations like the one
that Paul brought up last night. So now not only
are they going, but they also have all these great.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
I'm so glad you brought that up for it. The
personnel was part of it too, Yeah, like on the Lions,
I have really good skill position guys, I have an
unbelievable offensive line that I'm relying on blacks when don't
have that right now.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
The analytics, like they said like they did, are born
over a huge data set with a huge amount of
different personnel. I as a coach, you have to look
at my personnel and how does it apply the aver
it worked?

Speaker 1 (54:51):
You just finger wagged me in the first fifteen minutes
of the show not to be results driven.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
That's true. I did so.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Don't be results driven? All right, is it the choice
or not? Like, I'm sorry, that's a red go We're going.
That's a reckless thing to do. That could have completely
changed the game. Well if Anthony go ahead with the
fourth down.

Speaker 10 (55:16):
But yeah, people, hey.

Speaker 11 (55:20):
Hey, uh so uh first and foremost got a couple
of high life they're not football related, but listen, the
lobster roles that you guys have out there, that's gonna
be some stuff that you guys are probably used to.
But man, you don't know what you don't know. Lost
Garrel was life changing. And I've had lost rolls here
and you know, we're on the water. You guys see

(55:40):
people like at type Place Market, they're throwing the tension.
I think we're more known for like the breakwater fish,
and you guys are maybe known for your shale fish,
like you know, the clams and lobster and and but man,
just unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Uh.

Speaker 11 (55:53):
Secondly, the uh j Lette Stadium. Man, wow, I mean again,
I've been to lumit and again, you don't know what
you don't know so I'm thinking that's that's the perfectly
fun that's what football fields are or stadiums are. No, man,
you guys, I'm talking about just the shopping centers and
the Hall of Fame and just oh my, I'm like,

(56:14):
this is what is supposed to be, like unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
And then why did you enjoyed yourself?

Speaker 11 (56:21):
What a trip? What a bread And it's funny too
because you know, I understand now while why they why
mister Crafton and stadium owners, team owners are going to
make these investments because you got here. I am a
guy who put this trip off for years because it
costs money to fly across the country and go to game.
But now I'm like, I talked to my wife.

Speaker 13 (56:39):
I said, Bay, we.

Speaker 11 (56:39):
Got to go back next year. I'm going to make
to the annual thig just like you see, it's like
this isn't like I gotta come back. So and then
as far as the oh, the statue, heavan the details,
I mean, you're the details of close. I mean, it
was just hiss ridiculous. I almost want to decry man
like that for millions of us at the cop it

(57:00):
was just like just ridiculous. And then Lastly, football wise,
I can't really add anything. I was anxious to listen
to the postgame show, and pretty much it's nice to
sit here like what I think and then kind of
see what if you got kind of agree or solid differently,
And it's easy for me as a fan to say, man,
it felt like we beat ourselves, but then here the
postgame you got really got. I mean they take this.

(57:20):
Patricks pretty much beat themselves. You can't well, you can't
turn the ball over five times, and it rarely ever happened.
Unfortunately the one time I was in town they did it.
But hey, hey, I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Guys that you'll be back all right, Anthony, you got
a bright future with the Chamber of Commerce, I tell you.

Speaker 4 (57:35):
I should say fred I. Also I met two Patriots unfiltered.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
Fans, one on Friday and one on Saturday, just before
the ceremony.

Speaker 4 (57:42):
Nice fun. So that we're around here.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
They'll show, you know, Mike, there's a lot more than.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
Tens of the show. Well, these were the only two
that happened to be around, but they were very excited.
H to run into run into me and then wanted
to say hello everybody.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
So someone in South Carolina. That wanted me to ask
you why you want me to leave and go and
coach high school sports? Because I like seeing people happy.
I just thought it was funny. I'm in South Carolina, goes,
why does Fred want you to leave?

Speaker 2 (58:07):
All right, We're gonna take a break. I'm gonna eat
when we come back. More calls it emails here on
Patriots Unfiltered Game.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
You'll need a game plan.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
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Speaker 2 (59:57):
If you're gonna play the game board, you gotta learn
to play right.

Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
DraftKings is all about responsible game.

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It's more fun when it's for fun, so played responsibly.
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Speaker 8 (01:00:07):
Crown is yours gambling problem called twenty one plus.

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
Age in eligibility varies by jurisdiction.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Karen, how will.

Speaker 7 (01:00:22):
After a night to ruminate on things and not to
watch film, do you have a better idea how you
might handle the laundry Stevenson and the pumps.

Speaker 15 (01:00:34):
Well, we've got to continue to practice the crap out
of it.

Speaker 10 (01:00:38):
We also have to do a better job of.

Speaker 15 (01:00:40):
Protecting said person with the ball, whether that's the quarterback,
whether that's the running back or or the receiver. And
we're all responsible for the security of the football and
starts with the person who has it, and then and
then it.

Speaker 10 (01:01:01):
You know, falls on the people that are blocking.

Speaker 15 (01:01:04):
And now again we'll continue to rep it and if
we have to put two hands on the football and
when we're going through there, that's what we'll have to do,
you know, I mean, the only thing I know how
to do is to continue to practice it and and
work it. But then also, you know, maybe it's not

(01:01:26):
so much the person that you see, it's the one
you don't see. And there was a few opportunities that
we can show them here.

Speaker 10 (01:01:33):
In a little bit of that.

Speaker 15 (01:01:34):
And yes, the person is responsible for taking care of
the football, but again the other people are also have
a critical job in ball security, like understanding.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
The production can be a result of what the defense
gives you. What can your receiver group do to do
more productives going forward?

Speaker 10 (01:01:52):
Well, I just think keep doing what they've been doing.

Speaker 15 (01:01:54):
Uh, there's opportunities and we just have to be able
to find them. You know, when things are there, just again,
make the plays that you're supposed to make.

Speaker 10 (01:02:05):
You could see that there's opportunities.

Speaker 15 (01:02:07):
And you know, whether that's an incut by Kashan on
a third and long or and we'd breaking routes by
by Digs.

Speaker 10 (01:02:16):
Those those are all positive things.

Speaker 15 (01:02:20):
And again it's you can track stats, and we can
track wins or separation and man coverage and match.

Speaker 10 (01:02:27):
Again, there's one football.

Speaker 15 (01:02:29):
And uh, you know when when the opportunities are there,
just to continue to make them and then how well
they play with the football without the football. And I
think it's a good example of of of Digsy there
helping Remandre spring him for a big play something that

(01:02:49):
didn't happen in Miami and was able to come back
and adjust and take the coaching points and get the
get the look exactly how he needed it, and he'll
help them spring for for an explosive gain. So that
those are all positive things. And I know as receivers,
they want to catch touchdowns, they want to catch the ball.
But you know, we just got to continue to to

(01:03:10):
spread the ball around and take it where take take
the football where it's supposed to go when it's supposed to.

Speaker 10 (01:03:16):
Go there, and timing and rhythm and ball placement.

Speaker 16 (01:03:19):
Like you mentioned last night, how you guys are gonna
need Remandre this season. How do you balance holding someone
accountable and and valuing the message that that might send
to your team versus making sure you still have a
guy on board in rhythm, et cetera when you do
feel like you need him with down line.

Speaker 15 (01:03:39):
Yeah, I mean we're we're gonna need him, We're gonna
need everybody. And uh, he's got got talent, skill set.
It's a good protector, and we trust them in protection
and uh, you.

Speaker 10 (01:03:51):
Know, we'll we'll get uh, we'll get through this.

Speaker 15 (01:03:54):
And I think a lot of it is just the
consistency and continuing to build confidence.

Speaker 10 (01:03:59):
But you have to go out there and do it.

Speaker 15 (01:04:02):
How I manage that from an accountability standpoint, I would
say as of now, you know, I mean, I don't
know what that will look like later on the week.
As far as how we distribute the reps you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Did just to follow quickly.

Speaker 16 (01:04:17):
I remember it was your introductory press coffee you talked
about accountability and how you you kind of need to
know guys before.

Speaker 12 (01:04:22):
You can more an accountable because you don't want.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
There to be pushed back.

Speaker 10 (01:04:26):
No, I mean I don't know if Yeah, I mean
I think you get.

Speaker 15 (01:04:28):
To to hold them accountable right now.

Speaker 10 (01:04:31):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I do.

Speaker 15 (01:04:32):
But you know, I mean I also got to try
to to balance you know, winning football games and gaining
yards and scoring points and you know, all all those things.

Speaker 10 (01:04:42):
Right, so there's a.

Speaker 15 (01:04:47):
You know, we just we just got to get fixed.
And I know there's no easy fix and the only
thing I know how to do is is work, and
we'll work at it. And if I feel like or
we feel like that it's you know, in the best
interest to them at those opportunities, then then we'll have
to do that part of that, right, you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Know, listening to the Hall of Fame speeches here and
Julian say, this guy believed in me and you know
when I was down and things like that, how important
is that?

Speaker 10 (01:05:11):
Well?

Speaker 15 (01:05:12):
We you know, we believe in them where they wouldn't
be here we believe in them, each and every one
of them, and again just putting them into positions that
they feel comfortable and that there's trust and they have
confidence to to do their job. And then as a
professional athlete like we, you know, you have to be
willing to to risk something.

Speaker 10 (01:05:33):
To get something out of it. I think that it's
easy to you know, sometimes second guess yourself.

Speaker 15 (01:05:40):
So you know, Andre's I'm sure very aware of fumbling,
and Antonio and Drake everybody that fumble, and so you know,
we'll have to, uh, you'll come back with a resolve
to go and what happens on one week and doesn't
necessarily guarantee it's going to happen the next week and

(01:06:03):
it can't and I'm positive that it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Won't relatively early in the week. But do you interestedly
having Torell back with you guys at kind.

Speaker 17 (01:06:12):
Of this weekend.

Speaker 15 (01:06:13):
Uh, we'll kind of see where things are here going
forward here in the next couple of days.

Speaker 10 (01:06:20):
But I just he's you know, Terrell's around.

Speaker 15 (01:06:24):
We just you know, got to make sure that we're
trying to build some consistency with with how we do things.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
On his fumble that he was trying to make a
play to trading on Henderson.

Speaker 8 (01:06:34):
I believe against the Raiders he made a similar player.

Speaker 10 (01:06:36):
Who was getting taken down and flipped it out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
How do you walk that line and where is the
line with a young quarterback?

Speaker 15 (01:06:41):
Well, I mean, I think we've heard it here before,
but you know, everybody's trying to make a play. We
just need to make a good, good place and not
putting the ball at risk and understanding that there's a
timing element to protection and that we certainly don't have
all day based on the amount of people that we
keep in and protection. So I think that that's critical

(01:07:02):
that once it gets past the first or second read
that we're going to have to be ready to get
rid of the football or.

Speaker 10 (01:07:11):
You know, make sure that we're securing it at the
end of the play.

Speaker 15 (01:07:15):
Jack Gibbons and Charles Woods say that you can be
held up with the increased opportunities. Well, we played good
defense and got stops when they were in there.

Speaker 10 (01:07:23):
I think they were okay, you know, so.

Speaker 15 (01:07:27):
You know we were going to rotate, and when we rotated,
we started I don't think it was just those two players,
you know, solely, but we started playing good defense and
settling down, So I think, you know, we just stuck with.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
It and now great moments in history. Does that make
any sense? I think the Patriots almost stole one. They
were in position to steal the game. They're on the
twenty five yard line, up three with five minutes. We've
got to put that game. Well, I would say that
they were better.

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
But when you dropped the ball five six times, does
that make you the better team?

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Yeah, it means you were better. You just you just
didn't execute. So when you dropped the ball makes you better? Yeah?
They were they. I mean, these guys just told you
how open these guys were. You were lucky to know.
But if you dropped the ball, you dropped the ball.
That's that's a lack of execution.

Speaker 4 (01:08:19):
Right, he would have four hundred.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
If you're better, you're more talented than the other team. Yes,
you did what you wanted to do more than they
did what they wanted to do. I think they wanted
to catch the ball. Did you ever see anybody so
maddening as this?

Speaker 18 (01:08:33):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
Like, right, I know they wanted to make the field
goal to Fred, but the other guy blocked it. That's
a bad that's bad execution exactly, right. So what like,
what are we doing? That's another great moment from.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
All right A five to five past five hundred is
the Hotline podcast at Patriots dot com is the email address,
Emails flying in, calls are stacked up. V in Pittsburgh
writes in can you play? Talk about what's going on
with Pop Douglas? Why is there such a disconnect with
him and Drake? There was all this hope coming into
the season that I'll have a bigger part of the offense,

(01:09:08):
will be a reliable target. Drake and him just can't
seem to get on the same page.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
What are you seeing?

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
Drake and him just can't seem to get on the
same page.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
That's what I'm seeing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Uh, it's and again this is another example of a
guy who I thought had a pretty good summer, especially early.
I think maybe he was a little quiet later in
the summer. But thought Douglas had a good summer. I
thought he was really settling into this role in this
new offense, and it just hasn't really translated. I did
think he was going to play more in this game,
which you know he did with more man coverage from Pittsburgh,
but you know, it's talking to Evan The frustrating.

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
Thing is you look at some.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
Of the separation stats and he's like the only guy
who has significant separation of all the receivers, but he's
not in the right spot.

Speaker 4 (01:09:50):
Sometimes Drake isn't seeing him. Sometimes sometimes when we talked.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
About a lot of road, you know, I really do's
a lot of bad luck involving those two guys.

Speaker 6 (01:10:00):
It's so bizarre, Like he has a seventeen yard catch
wiped out with a penalty the illegal man downfield. Then
he's wide open on the swing pass and the right
flat and both guys sharing some of the blame I
think on that play because the short arm throw, like Drake,
Drake short arms it, but Pop also just keeps expanding

(01:10:20):
into the sideline, so he just keeps getting further and
further away from Drake. As the ball is being thrown
to him, he's just backpedaling like into space. And so
that one could have been I don't know, he could
still he still could be running like that could be
a forty yard fifty yard play. And then he's crossing
over the middle of the field late in the game

(01:10:42):
and he's wide open again and Drake throws it behind him.
Like these are just little things that they just I
don't know if it's that Pop isn't in the right
spots or you know, it's just bad luck and Drake
just has some bad throws and it happens to be
the ones when he's targeting Pop. I don't know what
the case may be. But the one thing just from

(01:11:03):
Pop's perspective that I just have kind of thought about
is like I just I still I still wish his
field awareness in the game sense was better, and I
think that there's times when he's just making things harder
than they need to be because he's just not one
hundred percent on the details. He's talented, he gets open,

(01:11:26):
he's dynamic runner, but the details just don't seem to
fully be there for him. Whereas you know, we're talking
off the air, like Edelman's in the Patriots Hall of
Fame because of the details, because he knew where to be,
when to be there, how many you need, and that's
why he has a red jacket Like that's that can

(01:11:46):
be the difference for.

Speaker 9 (01:11:47):
A lot of guys.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
I read I read that one email, but there were
a lot of emails that we got about Pop. I
don't want to read them all. They're all kind of
the same. But you mentioned that the details and when
you look at that binky that Brady had had all,
you know, throughout his career, whether it was Troy Brown
or Wes Welker or Julian Edelman, all three of those guys.

(01:12:09):
The one thing I think they all have in common
is their football IQ. They were just so smart about
the awareness of what's the situation. You know, what's the
defense look like? What do I need to get that
first down? You know, even when I don't catch it,
what do I do? Troy Brown against San Diego knocking

(01:12:29):
that ball away? Just the awareness of what the situation
is and what needs to get done. I don't know
if Pop has it or not yet it's too early,
but those three guys had it, and I'm wondering at
some point do they want to see if Chisholm has
it that type of awareness, because he certainly doesn't have
the athletic ability of Pop Douglas.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
I was just going to say, the only thing I
might push back on is it too early. I mean,
this is what your three for ever, you know, kind
of the same mistakes. I just I think the two
quotes I remember Draking the summer asking him about what
was going well with Pop, and he said, you know,
he Pop, he's lining up in the right place, He's
getting the right spots. Really highlighted the mental aspect of
and I also remember last year kind of surprising to
me that Jacobe Brissett saying I have to get used

(01:13:12):
to throwing to a player of his size, and that
was never anything that I really clocked. I mean, you
mentioned Wes Welker coming through here. Small guy never really
seemed an issue. Of course that's Brady, but generally across
the league, I never really thought about smaller receivers, some
quarterbacks maybe having a little bit of a hard time
figuring out where they're catching.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
There's a lot of stuff, and I started off by saying,
I think there's been a lot of bad luck, and
I do agree with that, and I think Evan pointed
out a couple of plays that if you just had
those two plays, one of them count and the other
one complete, you know, let's just call it a twenty
yard game. It may have been more than that. Mike
and I actually looked at this play yesterday, Evan, that

(01:13:53):
little swing pass. At the time of the throw, there
was nobody even on the other side of the hash marks,
and at the time that he would have caught it,
there was no one on the other side of the numbers,
and there was really only one guy there, Peppers yea,
And that would have been a lot of green for
him to have to try to navigate with a pretty
slippery guy in the open field. We might look at

(01:14:14):
it a little bit differently had those two plays gone
the other way. That said the instinct stuff that Fred's
talking about and that you guys are, that's that's relevant.
And on fourth down, I applaud Drake May for saying
I wish I had gone over that we need to
get a yard and this and that that's great leadership.

(01:14:36):
That's great leadership, But that should not have to be
said to Mario. Douglas needs to get that first down, period,
like he just he needs to be able to catch
that pass. I hated the play call. I hated, you know,
asking a guy to catch it and get up field
to get a first down on fourth and one. But

(01:14:57):
as it was like this he had to do with,
there's no reason for him. Now there's still shots of
extremely decisive.

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
I still don't think it's crazy easy that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
No, it's not because he wasn't going that direction. Now,
everybody just to just fall down, but he intentionally gave
ground you're looking to beat. It's exactly what Rabel said, Evan,
and I would talk to you, you know, like put your
foot in the ground and knife through the two defenders
and make sure you get the first down. Don't try
to dip around one of the defenders to potentially make

(01:15:27):
a big play. You can't do that. He needs to
get that needed to be a first down one hundred
times out of one hundred, and he didn't get the
first down. So like, I'm not absolving to Mario Douglas
of responsibility, but I do think there's a variety of
things going wrong when it comes to him, and it's
not all his faults.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
And to your point, even you said the big play,
if he made the big play, we might look at
things different, even that one one yard little play. If
he knife through, picked up the first down, kept the
chains moving, and maybe said like.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Well, if he ends up with five, so that's three catches, Well, no,
that's two more catches in more yards, right, you look
at it much differently, especially just in the key even
how about the little play that one of the catches
that he did make that he sort of stopped slid
his knee comes down. That was a great little move
and the guy ended up having his hand on him

(01:16:17):
when his knee was still down, so he was down
by contact. But it shows you sort of the potential
that he has. You go for the offense, I see,
But I got to tell you, I'm not sure he's
going to have it, Frank, because I think he might
be on the way out. I think you got you
know that the Chisen Brigade, I think is probably at
some point going to get their wish. So just although
I would go with Diggs, I think dig should be

(01:16:38):
in that role more. I would give him more opportunities.

Speaker 4 (01:16:41):
So just two things.

Speaker 6 (01:16:42):
One, on the fourth down play, they send double edge pressure.
They blitzed, and so he's hot, right, so like he's
got to throw the ball. And I actually thought that
it was a pretty good answer for the pressure that
they got. You know, I get like wanting to throw
the ball past the sticks, but in that situation, I
got sort of they were running kind of like like

(01:17:05):
a little stick to the field side, and they had
Digs running like an inside hook. And then Pop was
going to run the flat and uh and Pop. The
weirdest part about the play is that Pop had the
wherewithal to stop and turn for the ball, knew he
was hot and knew that the blitz was coming.

Speaker 9 (01:17:23):
I think Diggs pointed it at it and yelled.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):
Right, but he knew that blitz.

Speaker 6 (01:17:30):
Yeah, yeah, he knew Ramsey was blitzing, and so he
knew he was getting the ball.

Speaker 9 (01:17:35):
And then he got it and he just froze.

Speaker 6 (01:17:37):
And it was just very odd that he kind of
did the right thing but then didn't at the same time.
And that part of it was.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
To your point, And I'm not going to get into
an ex's nose thing, because I'm not. When they're coming
off the edge like that and you know they're coming,
I just see so many times they have the little
guy just playing leak out into the flat behind one
of those blitzers. You just loft it over the oncome,
you know, in this case Jalen and there's no one there,

(01:18:04):
and even but you don't it might be a big play.
But even if it's a three yard game, it's beyond
the sticks. Yeah, you know, if they have someone there
to make the tackle, you have the first thing.

Speaker 6 (01:18:14):
That's why I wanted to just because a lot of
I know that a lot of people agree with you.
So they had a trapped corner on that side of
the field that was layered like to protect against what
you're talking about. So that's why the ball went underneath,
and you know, the corner made a really good play
to have eyes.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
And when they didn't get that play, the game was over.
But didn't you get the Oh, come on, it can't
be over. Now, give us one more chance.

Speaker 4 (01:18:41):
That's the worst.

Speaker 3 (01:18:43):
It just out like you're like, you got all that
emotional like I think we would fourth down and no,
it's over.

Speaker 13 (01:18:48):
That's it.

Speaker 6 (01:18:48):
I just wonder if you know, with the Chishm thing,
like I think Pop is a much more athletic and
more dynamic player than aften Chisholm.

Speaker 9 (01:18:57):
But they might just need a yard.

Speaker 6 (01:19:00):
They might just need the guy that's just gonna catch
the ball and it's going to charge forward and split two.

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
Guys and be honest with you.

Speaker 6 (01:19:08):
I just don't know if that is his that's even
his game, you know, Like so it just I don't
think that chism is going to cure everything and that
that's like the answer and then all of a sudden
chism is gonna have this like Julian Edelman arc where
he's just like the guy. Now, Like, I don't think
that that's necessarily going to be the case, but he
might just be a little bit more gritty and like

(01:19:29):
tougher in those types of moments in terms of like
the physical aspect of it. And we saw that in
the preseason and he's breaking tackles and things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
But that's that's okay. Deshaun's in Virginia on the hotline.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
What's up to Shawn? All Right?

Speaker 13 (01:19:54):
I want to say that, uh this because they have
to be a mistake prone I think we got two
you guys mistake prone on the team. I think it's
uh cause for the firm and you might have to
make the tough decisions moving forward because he's bad enough.
They already have a quarterback that makes enough mistake and
you got guys like uh Steers that constant fumbles the ball.

(01:20:14):
Uh it puts the team uh at in a horror
place like it deflicts the team that kills the flow,
kills the energy and everything. You don't need stuff like that.
And then also when you look at the office I
don't think he'sustainable for all the reason why, for all
the reason we are reasons that you got just said,
as far as like not having vertical guy nam of
player down the field, you know, uh, you know, it's

(01:20:35):
no explosion, So you can't keep running, get up the
victory and expect that it's gonna be steth on the
field knowing that the play now when it comes to
pop Douglas even needs not blaming him because every time
when Brick May throws in the ball, he tells him, So,
who's that really on? That's all we have to say.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
Okay, different on every one. Every way I didn't, well,
he's what I think you said, and I would say
someplace it's on Mario Douglas, some plays it's on Drake Mays.
Someplaces it's on both of them.

Speaker 4 (01:21:07):
Goes back to the first. This is something going on
with that connection. They don't have that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
That's chemistry that I think a lot of people just
assume would come naturally to the slot position in the
Josh McDaniels offense that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
We've had guys in the past, Paul on this team
where we say, man, it just seems like they make
the easy ones look hard, and the hard ones look impossible,
you know. I don't know. Brandon Lloyd was one of
those flying through the something every throw and every catch
was like, did it really need to have to be
that hard?

Speaker 4 (01:21:39):
Yeah, Nikhil Harry kind of fell out.

Speaker 6 (01:21:41):
The thing is in the catch radius. I mean, I've
been on this for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
That's that's big.

Speaker 6 (01:21:46):
And the second level crosser that Drake almost through a
pick on it's in front of him, and like it's
not the best throw, but it's also a five foot
seven guy that he's targeting like fifteen yards down the field.
Like if that's you know, Digs or Booty or Hollins
and they have you know, they might get their hand
on that the pass and at least it's knocked down

(01:22:06):
and not thrown directly to the safety behind him. And
it's just when you watch it too from the overhead,
like you just see seeing this little five 't seven
guy like running down the field and you're like, this
is a hard target to hit, yeah, for a quarterback,
especially if it's in tight spaces, And I just wonder
if that is it for Drake is maybe like the

(01:22:28):
men to understanding that.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Yeah, but it's in the same I mean, Booty's not
the biggest guy in the world, but seems like Drake
has plenty of confidence. You know, that one diggy through
to him on that third down and probably maybe the
best story that he had in the game.

Speaker 4 (01:22:40):
That's what I like about.

Speaker 3 (01:22:41):
You know, we haven't seen enough of Booty and Dicks,
but they both have come through with some big plays
like digs with the third down conversions. He hasn't had
a high amount of volume, but I feel like I'm
growing to trust him in key situations, even Booty to
that extent, you know, going down the field, catching the
ball on the end zone, making tough plays like you know,
I just haven't earn that trust with Poppers.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
Startually get to the point where you're wondering about Booty.
You know why he isn't being targeted a little bit
more often because of what you're talking about. The first game,
obviously the volume was there. The last two games almost
no targets, but you remember them, yeah, you know, you
remember the catches paying more attention to him or.

Speaker 17 (01:23:20):
I don't think so, well, not not yet, but I
still think he's a super dynamic player and and you know,
he he within the framework of the offense, he'll catch
it when you throw it to him, But I don't
know if he's affecting coverage.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
And you know, and that's when I just when I
look at it, that's what I see. I just don't
see guys who are pulling coverage. Of fact, it's guys
who for the most part, it looks like the offense
is kind of stuck in mud.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Still.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
Okay, Uh, back to the phones. H Colby's in Texas.
Hey Colby, can you hear me?

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 19 (01:23:52):
All right, So I guess I'm more of a half
kind of guy on this game. All of the turnovers,
we still had a chance to win at the very name, So,
I mean, I was upset with the bumbles, was absolutely
livid with the Pop Douglas play. So I guess my

(01:24:15):
question is is, uh, Mike Brabel is a last half
full or half empy?

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
Oh half full full? Well, I would say that they
they would be encouraged by if we can get out
of our own way, we have a chance to do
some things.

Speaker 6 (01:24:33):
Yeah, I would agree with that. But I do think
and I was listening to some Paul shows this morning
actually on my on my way in here today, and
I think they bring up a good point about Remander specifically,
but I think you can talk about it with Pop two.
It's a really difficult spot for Rabel because you're trying
to preach winning football and accountability and don't do the

(01:24:57):
s that gets your beat and all this other stuff
that they're trying to build this culture around. But he's
also like one of your best players on offense, and
it's just it's a hard.

Speaker 4 (01:25:10):
Thing to do.

Speaker 6 (01:25:10):
Like, I don't I don't envy like the decisions that
they have to make with Ormandre because they might have
to make a really hard decision and sit him down
and it might not be what's best for the team
in the short term in terms of, you know, production
on the field on Sunday against Carolina, but it might
be what they have to do from a culture building

(01:25:31):
standpoint the program.

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):
Yeah, now Kobe's question, you know, my instinct is, oh,
he's class half full. But behind the scenes, given the roster,
he has to be careful about raising those expectations too high,
especially with ownership, where he's like, you know, I'm doing
the best I can given what we have.

Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
I would hope he's not worried about stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
But well, when you're talking to ownership, you have to
be like, Okay, you know this is what we can do,
but this is what we can't do, So you need
to be patient a little bit.

Speaker 6 (01:26:05):
I think they're good enough to roster talent wise to
win the game like on Sunday, Oh yeah, yeah, both
like this coming up Sunday and last night.

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
I think the ownership wants playoffs. The irony to me
is you could make an argument, at least I could
that the two games they lost they had more than
enough talent to win, and the one game that they won,
I would say the other team probably had more talent, right,
I mean what the Raiders have been since that opening
day has, I mean borderline train wreck. And I'm sorry,

(01:26:40):
the Patriots were the better team Sunday. They had the
better talent. I'm not saying that they did better talent
that was suited up that day. Now, maybe if Pittsburgh
was full strength, I might even defense. Talk to me.
With Joey Porter and Deshaun Elliott out there, maybe all
the guys that Evan's talking about that were open and
schemed open, maybe those don't happen if their secondary was

(01:27:01):
at full strength. But you know, maybe if Alex Highsmith
is playing instead of Nate Herbig, maybe I think a
little bit differently. But what I saw on Sunday the
Patriots with a better team. I mean, if that's off
base and you guys can.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
Feel, there's no doubt.

Speaker 1 (01:27:17):
I think they had better players.

Speaker 6 (01:27:19):
Yeah, I just the only thing that like, I'm not
trying to I don't know. I just I think they
have good enough players to be a competitive team this year.

Speaker 4 (01:27:27):
I don't think the roster is so.

Speaker 6 (01:27:31):
You know, deprived of talent like we've seen over the
last two years, that we can only expect them to
win four or five games. Like they they have a
lot better players this year than they had over the
last couple of seasons. Obviously the quarterback is the biggest
of it all. But like, you know, even having guys
you know, like Digs, guys like Milton Williams, you know,

(01:27:54):
those are guys that they didn't have, you know, Landry,
you know, like that they're better players than the guys.

Speaker 4 (01:28:01):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:28:01):
Campbell's a better left tackle than Vederien Love, Morgan Moses
a better right tackle than to Demontre Jacobs.

Speaker 4 (01:28:07):
So they have enough talent.

Speaker 6 (01:28:08):
They got to stop getting themselves beat No in Toronto.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Sunday's game was frustrating, but I agree that there are
reasons to be optimistic. The offense has shown signs of life,
maybe not intelligent life, but life.

Speaker 1 (01:28:22):
Drake looks good if you cover your eyes.

Speaker 2 (01:28:24):
For two plays a game, an EPA per dropback. And
most importantly, we are competitive. Last year we lost seven
games by more than one score. We've had a real
chance to win every game this year. Okay, I'm all
for that.

Speaker 6 (01:28:39):
I've been very optimistic about Drake for the last two games.
But you know, we were talking about this earlier, Deduce.
The one concern that I have with him is this
was his entire career at North Carolina.

Speaker 1 (01:28:51):
Where it's a big part of the post game show.

Speaker 6 (01:28:55):
Isn't Oh, I didn't know that his entire career at
North Carolina. I remember watching his tape at you know,
coming into the draft, being like this guy is awesome,
Like holy crap, is this guy good? And then you
look up at the scoreboard in the fourth quarter and
they'd be down two touchdowns and he'd be like, wait
a second, Like how it's because all of these little

(01:29:15):
misses and these near completions that we're talking about and
you know, the red zone turnovers and like all these
little things that kind of get washed out by holy craft.

Speaker 9 (01:29:27):
Did you see that throw?

Speaker 1 (01:29:29):
Right?

Speaker 6 (01:29:30):
Those are the things that end up costing you in games.
And my only concern with Drake is that that hasn't
been coached out of him yet, that he's still not consistent.

Speaker 9 (01:29:41):
Yeah, play in, play out.

Speaker 3 (01:29:43):
And my only hope, and I said a little bit
of this on the on the postgame show, is just
that has not a lot of continuity in his offenses
going back to college and into his first two years
as a pro, and that if he can get comfortable
in the system and really just have a couple of
years to settle in and to start to build his confidence,
that maybe we can get rid of those those plays.
And that's I mean, that's really the final frontier for him, right,

(01:30:05):
I mean, if you just clean up those few plays
a game, no when to take the loss, no one
to take the sack, no one to throw it away.
Hopefully those things come with experience and you can get
rid of some of these game changing mistakes.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
Any rights and whatever happened to taking advantage of bad football?
Where an a chain step away from being zero to three.
We better not get caught looking ahead to Buffalo. That's
another way of looking at it.

Speaker 6 (01:30:26):
A blade of grass of pop Douglas's foot from being
two and one.

Speaker 9 (01:30:31):
You know, like you can you can do this all day.

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
Yeah, that's why like the last email about like last
year or all the games that they weren't competitive in it, Well,
that's not what we were hearing all of last year.
All we were hearing about was all the one scrore
losses they had and how much better they could have been. Generally,
it's what you are and I agree with Evan. You
could make an argument for two and one. You can
make an argument for oh and three. They probably deserve

(01:30:55):
to be one and two. Gosh in Atlanta.

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
While I don't fully jive with Evan's nerd fantasies, I
do have respect for a coach that maintains a consistent
identity when it comes to game management.

Speaker 1 (01:31:06):
Like it or hate it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
You know where Rabel stands in short yardage or two
minute drill situations.

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
Not the pile on Mayo.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
But it never looked like he was remotely prepared in
these same got to have it moments. There's a lot
to fix here, but there are signs of a young
culture that's taking shape.

Speaker 1 (01:31:23):
I'm the opposite of that. I mean, the Mayo.

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
There's nothing to fix, but there's no sign no the.

Speaker 1 (01:31:30):
Male part of being prepared. And that might be accurate.
I don't know, and I think Rabel was certainly more prepared.
But I don't like a guy that already knows before
the game what he's doing. I don't want that.

Speaker 4 (01:31:40):
Yeah, you don't want the appointment.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
I don't know. I mean, I know if he's just deciding, well,
if it's fourth to one, I'm going for it every
time because of my models. As I'm going for that,
what do I need you for that?

Speaker 9 (01:31:49):
That's that's not what's happening there, but.

Speaker 1 (01:31:51):
That's what the email is suggesting.

Speaker 2 (01:31:53):
I want.

Speaker 1 (01:31:53):
I want a guy who knows what he's doing and
has strengthened his conviction. No, I want a guy who
takes the numbers and he uses the numbers, but not
as a bible like every Major League Baseball manager right now.

Speaker 9 (01:32:06):
Yeah, and I do think you have some feel I
do think you have that.

Speaker 6 (01:32:10):
I think you have people in the organization who are
definitely analytically driven, and you know, are doing that sort
of stuff. And I like that, but I don't think
that Rabel is dead set on making the decision that
they tell him to make.

Speaker 1 (01:32:23):
Like, based on that email, I would expect him to
go to every fourth and one from his own fifteen
yard line this season. I don't want that. I don't
think he will and I don't think that will happen either.

Speaker 3 (01:32:33):
No, but but you know, he's just crazy enough to
do it if you want to chary him.

Speaker 4 (01:32:36):
It's good though, I like it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):
Jack and Aba says that the success of the Detroit
Lions and that Dan Campbell holds a hidden, hopeful message
for the Patriots. The Lions are successful because of their
head coach, Dan Campbell. Campbell is effective primarily because he's
a leader of men, not an analytics nerd. Like the
coaches at Miami and Los Angeles. When mister crap I.

Speaker 9 (01:32:58):
Almost analytically driven organization in the.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
League when it's unbelievable, they just ignored everything Evan said.

Speaker 10 (01:33:04):
When you were.

Speaker 2 (01:33:06):
When mister Kraft hired a new coach for the Patriots,
he hired Mike Vrabel, who, like Dan Campbell, is primarily a.

Speaker 1 (01:33:13):
Leader of men, not an analytics nerd.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
Mister Kraft's decision to hire Mike Rabel bodes well for.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
The future of the Patriots. Those are two of the
more analytically driven guys Able and Campbell that you will find.
That's all Dan Campbell does, is you slave to the numbers?

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
Well, you like before Detroit turned the corner, we people
made fun of him because he was just following orders from.

Speaker 1 (01:33:34):
The analytics room.

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):
They're head of the curve, so and Jacket and Arbor.
You're from Michigan, you should know better anyway. But it
does seem like he plays out of instincts, but you're
claiming that the analytics back them up.

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
You can actually see it, like how prepared they are
when it's I'm talking about Campbell now, Yeah, you could
see it. Last night they talked about it a lot
about Akman and did a great job of actually explaining
how they know now on third down that they have
two downs to get this and the players know and
that that's all pre planned. Again, I don't need to

(01:34:14):
you know, Dan Campbell might be a great leader. I'm
not saying that he's not of men. Of men, I'm
not saying that terrible with women. They don't listen to him.
That's disrespectful.

Speaker 6 (01:34:23):
It's only been two games that they, you know, have
won so far, Detroit because they had a stinker in
the opener. I will give Dan Campbell his flowers and
apologize though, because they've looked pretty good on offense without
Ben Johnson over the last few weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):
This week I think I did. I believe you did
well at least with the spread. I think you took
him with a spread. I think you took Baltimore to
win and Detroit with the spread. I knew I had
something going on with the one thing. You continue to
have a feel for the league. Fred, you you were
in first place.

Speaker 6 (01:34:51):
You notice that Dan Dan Campbell, and I probably want
to notice this. He had a play sheet last night and.

Speaker 1 (01:34:58):
I didn't watch that closely, so there are I'm sure
it was a play sheet, not a Superman comic.

Speaker 4 (01:35:02):
It's a play sheet, Cheesecake Factor.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
There.

Speaker 6 (01:35:05):
There are some murmurings that he might actually be calling
the offense himself.

Speaker 1 (01:35:09):
Wow wow.

Speaker 6 (01:35:10):
And if if that is the case, then I sincerely
apologize to you, Dan Campbell.

Speaker 1 (01:35:15):
They listen. You gotta love Dan Campbell. He's shown everyone wrong.
Now you don't have to, but yeah, I kind of
agree with you, Fred, And I'm be one of the
guys that puts my hand up and say, we all
thought biting the knee caps. But even before that, I
kind of thought he was just one of these typical
Hartohs that just thinks you can be like more enthusiastic

(01:35:38):
before the game and that's going to allow you to win.
But clearly has more going on than.

Speaker 4 (01:35:41):
I sure though.

Speaker 3 (01:35:43):
I mean maybe it's a cliche, but establishing a program
and having a quarterback continuity and you know everybody's just
on the same page and they know what kind of
team you want to be, and so I think that
that builds in a little bit of leeway when you
lose coordinators or you lose a key player. You saw
it around here for a long time. You didn't always
know what the answer was, but you knew that you
had good culture and that that player would somehow emerge.

Speaker 1 (01:36:05):
You had a foundation. When Jack's email started and he
was talking about taking solace in what Detroit's done, I
thought he was going in a different direction, which I
would be wholeheartedly in agreement with. And that's sort of
how they're building, well, at least looks like they're trying
to build. You know, they have the young quarterback. You know,
they got Golf, so it's a different way to get him.
But at the time they got golf, he was still

(01:36:26):
a young quarterback. And they built obviously up front, you know,
by drafting Seol and they had rag now who's since retired.

Speaker 9 (01:36:34):
Inn Johnson on the other you know, so you look at.

Speaker 1 (01:36:37):
The two rookies that the Patriots are plugging in on
the offensive line, I think that their hope is, maybe
we're not ready, much like when Campbell got there and
they went three thirteen in one or whatever it was.
We're going to put these building blocks in place and
it's good. You know, maybe not right now, but in
two years we're going to be pretty good. Right so
you have to hope will Campbell and Jared Wilson are
really good. You know, by that time, probably Bradbury's gone.

(01:36:58):
You replaced him with a the younger center, and that's
like the foundation in front of May and then you know,
if Kyle Williams sort of emerges as maybe like Jamison Williams,
you know, someone like that. I'm not saying Kyle Wins
is that dynamic, but work with them, yeah, you know,
and you get another weapon to replace Diggs who's not

(01:37:19):
going to be here long term. That's what I think
that the vision is.

Speaker 3 (01:37:23):
Yeah, and then maybe you get to a point in
a couple of years where a player like Jamior Gibbs
that maybe rest the la on hembishit, but you can
make a luxury pick whereas you know, last couple of years,
probably next year, getting into the draft, you say, look,
we gotta we need a number one receiver, we gotta
find some speed, and you know they're probably gonna need
an edge at some point, but you know, you feel
like you might have the cornerback, you might have the quarterback,

(01:37:44):
you might have the left tackle. Now, the receiver and
the pass rusher are probably the two big pieces you
still need.

Speaker 1 (01:37:49):
But next year, if this and how the quarterbacks in college.
The quarterbacks in college, I think to this point in
the season have been a little disappointing. But there's a
lot of people that think there's a fair amount of
first round picks at quarterback, which is a tremendous advantage
for you. Yeah, if it works out that way, if
you you know, let's just say for argument's sake, they
get the sixteenth pick, it's right in the middle of

(01:38:11):
the round. So they become an average team this year
and they're pick in the middle of the first round.
If four or five of those picks end up being quarterbacks,
that allows you to get maybe a wide receiver that
you might not have gotten if you were in this
year's draft.

Speaker 9 (01:38:24):
By Jordan Tyson, I think the big thing that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:27):
I even look ahead two years to see if you've.

Speaker 4 (01:38:29):
Got a Campbell, I want to Tyson to.

Speaker 6 (01:38:30):
Well, the big thing that do said there that is,
you know, the Lions kind of had this slow burn
where day Campbell's first season they won three games. The
second season they were eight nine or something like that,
and then in twenty twenty three they drafted Gibbs and
they had it was Gibbs, it was Jack Campbell. Brian Branch,

(01:38:52):
Sam Laporta is in there somewhere, like you know, if
it drafts drafts in order to do that, like I
think the Patriots might have like one more year where
they're kind of not there yet, yeah, and that would
be this season. Yeah, right, And so the Lion's original
pick in that draft is eighteen. They traded up to
twelve the draft of Mere Gibbs, but as much as
I want to see the Patriots back in the playoffs

(01:39:13):
and all that stuff, like having one more year where
you're picking like twelve in each round and.

Speaker 9 (01:39:19):
You're able to be have one more draft.

Speaker 6 (01:39:22):
Class like hopefully this one is and I was gonna
say last year, but well, especially if you.

Speaker 1 (01:39:27):
Get one funny thing right off the top of the show.
And the number one objective this year was to hope
that you saw that progression for Drake May. And you
know it's early, but we've we've seen progression from Drake May. Definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:39:39):
Yep, let's go to Randy in Providence.

Speaker 1 (01:39:43):
What's up, Randy?

Speaker 18 (01:39:45):
Good after you and gentlemen, So I'm calling I. Obviously
there's some good things that happen in the game. You known'
you known't get that close to winning a game you
have five turnovers in without a lot of good things happening.
But three players that I'm concerned about after a couple
of games here, and number one on that list is

(01:40:06):
Will Campbell. I feel like it's getting glossed over a lot.
Everybody was worried about the match about t J. Watt
and then he ended up just getting manhandled by Nick herbig.

Speaker 9 (01:40:18):
Uh, manhandled a little strong.

Speaker 18 (01:40:22):
Well, he gave up seven pressures. Nick Herbig had a
total not according.

Speaker 6 (01:40:26):
To some sevenff No they hadn't for four.

Speaker 1 (01:40:32):
Who was the one that had him for none?

Speaker 9 (01:40:34):
No sacks?

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
A ws went.

Speaker 6 (01:40:36):
On, It doesn't it's semantics. But manhandled was a little
strong beat.

Speaker 1 (01:40:41):
Yeah, I saw him get running run by. I didn't
seem manhandled with you.

Speaker 18 (01:40:44):
There was a lot of pressure coming off the left side.

Speaker 9 (01:40:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:40:48):
It wasn't It wasn't a great day. I don't think.

Speaker 4 (01:40:51):
I think a lot.

Speaker 6 (01:40:51):
I just don't agree with a lot. I'm sorry anyways,
it's it doesn't matter.

Speaker 18 (01:40:56):
Well my my question, I guess moving forward, looking at
the offensive line, looking down the road, are we going
to be looking to shift those two guys inside where
Campbell goes to guard Wilson to center and then and
then add a tackle moving down the road, or are
we going to be looking at adding a younger center

(01:41:17):
at some point in time and tell those guys where
they are.

Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
I think it's too early to say that. Who are
the other two guys that we have concerns about, Dallas.

Speaker 18 (01:41:26):
Often and Carlton Davis. I think Carlton Davis is right
now through three grains, he's ranked sixty ninth out of
one hundred and fifty eight cornerbacks. It's about halfway. I
thought he got He got burned by Dante Thorden in
the first game and then the gk Metcalf catch for
the touchdown where James didn't even get off his speed.

(01:41:47):
You can test that. Yeah, I just think he's been
he's been disappointing. He's again ranked right near the middle
of the pack both overall and in coverage, seventy five
out of one fifty eight, and I just think he's
been disappointing. I understand that Gonzales is not there and
that when he is, you know, the assignment's kind of

(01:42:07):
moved down a level. But I just I wonder how
you guys feel about Carlton Davis. Alex Austin has obviously
been the dumpster fire, but uh, now do you guys
feel about Carlton Davis's performing through a couple of games?
And I mean, Gazzale is coming back. This would be
a good game for him to come back, right because
Chi Mac is not a burner. He's their lead receiver,

(01:42:29):
but he's a guy that you can Gizell should be
able to keep up with pretty easily.

Speaker 1 (01:42:34):
Thanks Randy.

Speaker 3 (01:42:36):
Yeah, I'm not d No, he's giving up a couple
of plays, but that's that was a tough touch the NFL.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
No, but I would just.

Speaker 6 (01:42:42):
Say, like giving up two catches the whole year, what
I can't stand.

Speaker 1 (01:42:45):
I mean, it's not gonna come and surprise to you
guys is that I think these numbers in these rankings
are completely destroyed.

Speaker 2 (01:42:52):
Took the words out of my mouth. So you're saying
he's given up two passes all year?

Speaker 1 (01:42:57):
Get down? So his percentage is terrible because he hasn't
really been ad a lot, right, right, and one of
the catches that he gave up, to Evan's point, was
a big play. Well, so the numbers is gonna say
that he's terrible. It's really a very small sample size.

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
I think we're just talking and I'm does it take
into consideration like they didn't throw that way because he
was in good verage?

Speaker 6 (01:43:17):
So no, But so then what are we talking about.
I'll cover it. I don't mean to pick on Randy.
I know I got on him about Will Campbell. He
picked two positions where when you make like one or
two glaring mistakes it's obvious, right, Like corner and tackle
are two positions the corner of the office, right where

(01:43:37):
if you give up a sack as a tackle or
you give up a touchdown as a corner, then you
automatically had a good bad game or a good game.
It's just the way. It's just kind of the nature
of the beast. I would say with those two positions,
like Carlon Davis, you know he said he didn't leave
his feet on the DK play while he's out of face,
so he's driving the catch point, he's not supposed to

(01:43:58):
leave his feet. He didn't cover the play well, but
that was the one catch he gave up the entire game.

Speaker 1 (01:44:04):
Yeah, and I'm not telling you Davis has been great
in these three games, but I would just say that
if and I'm not picking on Randy either. I agree
with you, Ev, but I think if you didn't have
these sights that have all this charting, I don't think
people would look at the games, the three games, just
watch the games and say, you know what a big
problem is Carlton Davis. I don't think he's shown up.
I don't think that he's really been like a big

(01:44:26):
part of these games. The Dante Thornton play and opening
day was glaring. That was a bad error. He got
beat on a double move. It happens whatever. I agree
with Evan. I didn't see the ball getting thrown towards
seven very often.

Speaker 9 (01:44:41):
Why would you throw it at seven?

Speaker 1 (01:44:42):
He's the when you got twenty eight outdred they're picking
on him, and even then, you know Alex Austin has struggled.

Speaker 4 (01:44:49):
I would agree with Randy I want is the one
I agree with him.

Speaker 1 (01:44:51):
I would agree that he has struggled, but even hasn't
been the huge amount of volume because they're not really
picking on the corners all that much. They're like finding
guys in space. They're you know, Miami, how many times
did they get sort of linebackers in matchups that they
wanted to get and exploiting the outside edges of the
you know, with Hill and Waddle in that game. So

(01:45:12):
I don't even think the corners have been that you
know that glaring. I agree Austin has struggled, and I've
been disappointed by that because I thought he looked good
in training camp. I thought he had a strong train,
he looked like a solid option. He hasn't been I
don't think as much of him. I'm not as confident
of him being able to do his job. Now.

Speaker 4 (01:45:32):
Yeah, I just as I was.

Speaker 6 (01:45:34):
You're right, you know, three games in were way too
early to make any declarations on Will Campbell one way
or another. But if we're just evaluating the three games,
like saying that they need to move him off of
left tackle too early, it is kind of crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:45:47):
I thought he was pretty good against Miami.

Speaker 6 (01:45:49):
It was really good against Miami. But this game Herbert
got him, did they Definitely he won the matchup. Now,
I pushed back on Randy because I don't think he
acted like well was a turnstile on Sunday, and I don't.

Speaker 9 (01:46:02):
I don't think it was that.

Speaker 1 (01:46:03):
I wouldn't necessarily say Will Campbell specifically. I would just
say I thought Pittsburgh had a lot of quick pressure
in this game. And then I was stunned to find
out that for once one of my moronic takes, Mike
actually looked it up and the numbers, uh, you know,
bore it out. I wasn't. I didn't know what the
number would be, but it just felt to me.

Speaker 4 (01:46:24):
It's just weird.

Speaker 1 (01:46:25):
It was a lot of pressure.

Speaker 6 (01:46:26):
It was not not a ton, but I think like
her big specifically, like those are the types of guys
that are going to be tough matchups for Campbell right
now because he's got speed off the edge and the
guys that really get him opened up to the outside.
And then he hit him twice with double mood, you know,
inside moves, I should say, after he kind of set

(01:46:48):
up the speed.

Speaker 4 (01:46:49):
Which is why I disagree.

Speaker 1 (01:46:50):
I think, what do you say, manhandle? Yeah, yeah, he
ran by him. He wasn't manhandling him. I think when
when will Campbell's able to lock up with guys, He's
gonna win those more often than not.

Speaker 2 (01:46:59):
Wrong guy by Eric's in New Jersey.

Speaker 1 (01:47:01):
Hey Eric, Hey, I'm.

Speaker 13 (01:47:04):
Doing make two points real quick. I know Paul is
gonna hate his comparison because he thinks his guy's a dink.
But Drake May I.

Speaker 11 (01:47:11):
Think he should have a lot of flashes. And I thought,
I thought the world.

Speaker 18 (01:47:15):
Of Jay Cutler, you know the ball better than nobody
can run.

Speaker 1 (01:47:19):
No, it's a great comp it's a great comp. I
agree with you. Now. The thing about Jay Cutler that
was so maddening was he had all these skills and
didn't seem I didn't know I don't know Jay Cutler.
I don't know what it was in his heart, but
he didn't seem like he cared all that. You can
tell he was kind of indifferent. I don't think it
as long it didn't It didn't seem like it mattered

(01:47:41):
that much to him. So, you know, I haven't seen
any evidence of that in Drake May right that it's
not important to him, that he's not serious about what
he does. But from a physical perspective, I can that's
a good comp He's got a lot of the similar
skills set.

Speaker 9 (01:47:55):
He's a little bit more. Drake's a little bit more mobile.

Speaker 4 (01:47:57):
Than Butler could move, though.

Speaker 1 (01:47:59):
I mean, I think May is an exceptional athlete. I
don't think Cutler was.

Speaker 6 (01:48:03):
But no, I meant times the quarterbacks mobility. Yeah, you know,
Jay Cutler's the Trevor Lawrence is like the guys that
are just.

Speaker 4 (01:48:10):
They got all the things.

Speaker 1 (01:48:11):
And Jay was another guy in college. Now he played
at Vanderbilt, which makes it a little bit even more difficult,
but you kind of watched him and you're like, why
doesn't this guy win more? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:48:20):
Yeah, Fred It was the highest blitz rate and the
highest pressure rate in terms of for the Patriots offense.
Of the three games, I guess Pittsburgh.

Speaker 1 (01:48:27):
So they blitzed and got there.

Speaker 2 (01:48:29):
Yeah, Pittsburgh blitzed the highest.

Speaker 3 (01:48:31):
Yeah, it's been rising forty two point six's according to
the next Gym.

Speaker 6 (01:48:37):
Maybe they count some of those five man rushes a
blitzeres se mantics.

Speaker 3 (01:48:41):
Yeah, but it went it went twenty six thirty seven,
So it's been going up.

Speaker 4 (01:48:47):
The pressure rate has been.

Speaker 1 (01:48:49):
I'm surprised because I felt like the Raiders just blitzed
every play in the second half of that game, which
kind of shut down their offense that day. Yeah, but
that's the lowest rate that they had. The laders, they
might not have blittered all on the first half.

Speaker 6 (01:49:01):
It's funny that I used to crawl up Bill's backside
like the five, like when there's five down on the
line of scrimmage, and that's not a blitz. A blitz
is coming from I have a second or third five.

Speaker 2 (01:49:13):
I thought a blitz is when you brush more than
their blocking.

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):
Well, and technically it's five, but I like, I don't
think like if I have five blockers and they're sending
five guys, you considered a blitz, but it is.

Speaker 4 (01:49:25):
It's four blow or five plus. That's kind of us.

Speaker 2 (01:49:27):
But I thought a blitz is when they send an
extra guy. No, it's not where they send it.

Speaker 1 (01:49:33):
It's just I'm with you.

Speaker 6 (01:49:34):
Yeah, no, I but when you like, if there's five
guys across the line of scrimmage, right, and then there's
five offensive linemen, of blitz, so.

Speaker 2 (01:49:44):
It's some ky some kuys. Sometimes guys drop out, and
then it comes from a safety.

Speaker 4 (01:49:50):
That's a blitz. That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:49:51):
But so it's it's it doesn't matter where they come from,
it's how many come.

Speaker 9 (01:49:57):
But if it's if they run.

Speaker 2 (01:49:59):
But if this, well, if I have an extra tight
end as a blocker, then it's not a blitz because
it's five on five, five hats.

Speaker 1 (01:50:06):
On five hats, but six that would be six on
five whatever. If I have a hat on every hat,
it's not a blitz.

Speaker 9 (01:50:13):
Right, That's what I'm Yeah, But it doesn't matter where
it comes from.

Speaker 1 (01:50:17):
What they're arguing about.

Speaker 6 (01:50:20):
How does it not matter where it comes from?

Speaker 2 (01:50:23):
If I if I have if they only have five,
If I have five blockers and they have five people coming,
it's not a blitz.

Speaker 1 (01:50:31):
I don't care if it comes from the safety.

Speaker 9 (01:50:33):
But it matters a lot because of the protection scheme.

Speaker 2 (01:50:36):
Well, they might screw up because of that, but that
doesn't mean it's a blitz.

Speaker 9 (01:50:39):
But that's not screwing up.

Speaker 3 (01:50:41):
So if they send, if they drop a defensive tackle
and a cornerback comes on the blitz, is that a
blitz the only rush.

Speaker 1 (01:50:47):
Drop somebody out, But that's a red dog. No, no, no,
something just the red dog, red dog like that. But
when you ropping guys and you're bringing other guys this
different zone, blitz.

Speaker 2 (01:51:03):
Right, but it's it's still a bit. But no, it's it.
That's one hundred percent of the sky's pressure.

Speaker 1 (01:51:08):
It's it's not right.

Speaker 9 (01:51:09):
But so but then you're sliding the line in a
different direction.

Speaker 1 (01:51:12):
Okay, so you screwed up. No you didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:51:15):
You didn't You didn't read where the pressure is coming from.
That doesn't mean it's a blitz.

Speaker 4 (01:51:19):
What do you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:51:19):
That is exactly what it means.

Speaker 2 (01:51:21):
So every time you every time you you can't read
the pressure, it's a blitz.

Speaker 6 (01:51:25):
When if they if you are five down on the
line of scrimmage and then they drop somebody out, but
they blitz the.

Speaker 2 (01:51:31):
Safety but you're you're using that word indiscriminately when.

Speaker 6 (01:51:38):
Okay, and they but they have five guys initially on
the line of scrimmage. The offensive line has to block
the bigs. You're not going to point the offense.

Speaker 1 (01:51:46):
But now there's only four bigs to block because somebody
but you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):
You don't know that until the ball is now okay,
but that that's called the sky's pressure.

Speaker 1 (01:51:54):
It's not a blitz, you know, this is this is
this is a suit, This is a sup up version
of a trick player. This is jew I'm sorry Evans.
Right now, cornerback doesn't typically rush the passer, so when
he does, that's a blitz.

Speaker 2 (01:52:08):
So what if they only had two guys on the
line defense and a corner came, Is that a blitz?

Speaker 1 (01:52:14):
No, because only three guys go tackle, then that would
be different. But the quarterback quarterback doesn't always but the
quarterback is still blitzing.

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):
I would say, oh, he's bringing that would say that
it's not bliitching.

Speaker 6 (01:52:25):
I would say that would still be a blitz. If
they had simulated pressure before the snatch.

Speaker 2 (01:52:30):
I'm talking about two guys line up on the defense
and then and then they blitz and they and they
bring a corner.

Speaker 1 (01:52:35):
But where are the other big guys. They don't they
dropped off.

Speaker 4 (01:52:41):
Nine defense.

Speaker 2 (01:52:42):
It's a lighter they have more safeties in or they
have you know.

Speaker 1 (01:52:46):
So no team would ever do that. Then what are
you talking about? The Patriots? You used to have the
tackles on the on the on the line, but they
didn't send a cornerback from ten years back. I'm not
talking about that. I'm just talking about talking about people
on the field. Talk about people. You said, oh no, whatever,
just have two people on the line. I didn't happens.
You just did say it. I said they wouldn't have
the corner back ten yards off the line and then

(01:53:06):
blitz loo with only two guys. How do you know, because.

Speaker 9 (01:53:09):
Maybe Brian Tyres would, Brian Flores would do something like.

Speaker 1 (01:53:12):
That right by the time that by the time that
happens if you only have two So in other words,
in your scenario, there's only two guys that five guys
are responsible for. Everybody else is back in your scenario,
everybody else is like off the line of scrimmage. There's
only two possible And I'm not saying way back. I'm
talking about you know, off the line right right, Yeah,

(01:53:34):
this is.

Speaker 4 (01:53:34):
How all the defense This is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:53:36):
It wouldn't. No one would ever do that. That's my point.

Speaker 6 (01:53:38):
Oh I disagree, So like I'll give you an example
and real real world example here. Okay, So last week
in Miami, Drake May's touchdown run, Judaan was unblocked off
the edge. It was a five down defensive line. They
set the mic for a four down defensive line, so
they actually had five on five, but they slid the
line accidentally.

Speaker 9 (01:53:59):
It was they they messed.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
Up the mic.

Speaker 4 (01:54:01):
Point, So is that a blitz?

Speaker 6 (01:54:02):
No, it wasn't a blitz because they had five on five,
So that was that one was like a mental brain
fart that they should have been able to reset the
mic and get all five of the guy's blocked. But
now if you have those five bigs and Judon drops
out and a corner blitz, is that's blitz.

Speaker 1 (01:54:18):
You keep using that word blitz.

Speaker 4 (01:54:20):
Because because he's blitzing bringing pressure.

Speaker 2 (01:54:22):
I was taught a blitz is when you send an
extra guy.

Speaker 1 (01:54:26):
So I think in general terms, I would agree with you.
I think what he's talking about, like when you have
the product, the protection set, you have five guys.

Speaker 2 (01:54:36):
But that's the whole point is you try to trick them.

Speaker 1 (01:54:38):
No, I understand that, but maybe one of those guys
simulates like he's going and then stops, and then another
like it like a defensive comes. That's a blitz. Even
though you're only bring in five guys. That's still I
think it's just disguised like you your thing with two
guys like That's what they're trying to do is confuse you.
But they're not going to have everybody like. They're not
going to have nine guys off the line and only

(01:54:58):
two on and and you're going to get confused where
it's I was.

Speaker 2 (01:55:02):
Always taught when a team blitzes, they're taking a chance,
they're taking a risk because they're they're using an extra
guy to get there.

Speaker 1 (01:55:11):
Right, That's what I was blitz You know, the fewer
guys you have in coverage, the more men coverage you have,
and right, one guy, when you.

Speaker 2 (01:55:17):
Drop somebody out into coverage and move another guy, it's
less of a risk. It's not a blitz. That's just
what I was taught.

Speaker 4 (01:55:25):
This is no I hear what you're saying. You know,
I just think that you know, the people.

Speaker 1 (01:55:29):
I was taught by had wider pants. You know they
weren't as tight.

Speaker 4 (01:55:32):
I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 6 (01:55:34):
I'm just telling you, like from an offensive line perspective,
like you're setting the protection pre snap fine based.

Speaker 1 (01:55:41):
Off of where using the word blitz, where the threats are.
So like nothing you're saying is wrong.

Speaker 6 (01:55:46):
You're sliding, You're sliding it this way, and then they're
bringing pressure from the other way, Like there's no way
you're going to be able to block that guy, Like
it's it's unless you're.

Speaker 1 (01:55:56):
Tom Brady and you point it out.

Speaker 2 (01:55:59):
Like the only way that you're blocking that Tom Brady
didn't point out Tom Brady knew that guy's coming on.

Speaker 1 (01:56:06):
That's right, Ed Reid coming up. It's not like that's
that's rights. I'm always coming I'm just gonna throw it
over the top. I'm talking about I.

Speaker 6 (01:56:14):
Just this was a fun conversation. I'm glad that we
talked about.

Speaker 3 (01:56:17):
You can have your pff I'll take my PFK.

Speaker 9 (01:56:23):
I just think it's modest.

Speaker 1 (01:56:26):
Numbers.

Speaker 6 (01:56:29):
This is this is what all this is nowadays, Like
they like most defenses nowadays are not giving up the
numbers and coverage, like they're not bringing the house anymore.

Speaker 9 (01:56:37):
As often as they used.

Speaker 1 (01:56:38):
To, unless it's week one and we did well.

Speaker 2 (01:56:41):
Yeah, but like we did on that last play, Carlton
Davis was the only guy back there.

Speaker 4 (01:56:46):
He's right.

Speaker 6 (01:56:47):
But now they're doing a lot more of these disguised
pressures where it's we still really are getting the six
or seven guys in coverage, but where who's dropping and
who's blitzing is changing on.

Speaker 1 (01:56:59):
The fly is coming?

Speaker 9 (01:57:00):
Yeah, and so that that's confuse it. Who's rushing?

Speaker 4 (01:57:04):
Who's rushing about that?

Speaker 1 (01:57:05):
I gotta go, I have a meeting. I have to
BP bro. Sure, good show, good good ending. I like it.
I like it. I like it.

Speaker 2 (01:57:12):
We'll be back tomorrow. Tomorrow's turn the page day Catch
twenty two. It's Moorrow Okay, so you'll warm up the crowd, yeah,
and we'll get it.

Speaker 9 (01:57:21):
I'm gonna ask Bartha if you'll do what you we'll.

Speaker 1 (01:57:23):
Wake them up. All right. We'll be back tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:57:28):
Hey, this is Deuce. Thanks for tuning into the show.
If you really want to help us, make sure you
like us wherever you get your podcasts, like Apple Podcasts
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everything else that we do here at the Patriots Thanks
a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:57:47):
Patriots Catch twenty two Well, join Evan Lazar and Alex
Bart every Thursday as they take a deep dive into
the exit, the o's trend and latest New England Patriots
roster moves.

Speaker 9 (01:57:57):
You And I'm usually into the numbers.

Speaker 2 (01:58:00):
It we do something.

Speaker 20 (01:58:00):
I mean to the tangible numbers. There's there's time here,
just give me. There's the advantage of fact. You haven't
know how to work it. I'm surprised you know an
old man over here. I thought maybe I'd have to
show you, like a tutorial or something.

Speaker 1 (01:58:11):
How am I old man?

Speaker 5 (01:58:12):
To search for Patriots Catch twenty two anywhere you get
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