March 29, 2021 • 38 mins
Host Olivia Landis welcomes ESPN NFL analyst Kimberley A. Martin to the New YorkHER podcast. Landis and Martin talk about her time as a Jets beat reporter for Newsday from 2012-17. The Brooklyn native talks about her journey through sports writing after graduating from Syracuse. Martin describes the importance of developing a human side of athletes when covering a team and league on a daily basis. Martin discusses some of the important aspects of good storytelling. She also describes her transition to television while working with ESPN.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome into another episode of The New
Yorker Podcast presented by Visa. I'm your host Olivia Landis.
This week we have ESPN NFL reporter and co host
of the First Take Her Take podcast, Kimberly Martin. Kimberly,
thank you so much for joining me on the New
Yorker Podcast. I appreciate your time. Hello, thanks for having me.
(00:23):
I appreciate it, Kimberly. For those that are listening and
those that are watching, UM, I'm not sure if they
know or not, but you actually covered the Jets for
a very long time in the NFL before your position
with ESPN. How long did you cover the Jets as
a beat? So I was actually yeah, the twitter from
the day has been with me for a while. Um.
(00:45):
I actually the backup Death Seed writer during the Wrexham
Sanchez days and I got the official beat for Newsday
I think April twelve, so I think it was nineteen
days after the team traded for Tim Tebow. So I
hit the ground running as far as uh first time
(01:07):
beat ever, So yeah, the Jets were the first, and
um I left I think training camp of Todd's last
few sixteen, I don't even remember. It's been a while,
but oh yeah, I left. So it's been a while.
And where did you get your start prior to becoming
(01:27):
a Jets beat reporter because you said that you used
to be a backup beat reporter, But where did you
start in writing prior to that? So I have this
like crazy career path. I can't even call the crazy
journalism path career path. Um, I worked in finance before
I even got my masters in magazine journalism. I'm oh,
(01:54):
but I actually the first job I started as an
intern covering high school sports and Jersey of Burden Record,
and then after about a year and a half, I
went to Newsday and worked my way up very quickly.
Two years of covering high school sports on the Island,
um a lot of a lot of field hockey, a
lot of men's basketball, football, and then two years as
(02:16):
a g a general assignment, so I covered a lot
of Yankees games, a lot of Mets games. I covered
the New York City Marathon, uh hofstar St John's, um
it's mad type so and then you know, I did
some Jets giants going in here and there for regular writers.
I did all of that prior to getting the full
(02:38):
time beat. I was asked by my editor Newsday, which
beat do you want you gotta take one to Do
you want to cover the Jets, the Mets or at
that time the Nets were moving to Brooklyn, And I
was like, well, I've been around the Jets a little
bit covering rex Covering rex ons be so bad. So
that's how I ended up covering the Jets. And you
mentioned that you covered high school sports actually for a
(03:00):
how much did that help prepare you for the bigger
steps in your career covering some of those smaller type
of sports. I think you know that when I used
to talk to college students or just high school students,
I would actually say I missed covering high school sports
a lot. And I think when you're in it, when
you're in class and you want to be a journalist,
(03:22):
so you want to be a writer, you think, oh,
I can't wait to cover to the Yankees full Cob,
I can't wait to have this beat. But high schools,
you know, and I didn't cover high schools like that long.
When you think about I moved up really quickly, which
was great, but I missed the days because you're the
first people to interact with these high school athletes, you know,
(03:44):
like Greg Olson, make it's from Jersey, you know what
I mean. There's so many kids that that come from
these cities that you're in and you're covering them on
the ground floor and you're getting their stories. You're telling
their stories first. So a lot of times as a
pro writer, as a national writer, when you do research
on guys like you call up some of the articles
(04:04):
that were written about them in high school and college.
So I always tell you. I always tell students like,
don't be in such a rush to start covering the
Yankees or start covering the depths of the Giants or
the Knicks or something like that. That will come. But
you cut your teeth. You know, the mistakes that you
can make um learning about sports, you can make those
(04:25):
mistakes on a smaller level one and the spotlight isn't
on you, and it allows you that time to grow
and get better and to develop your writing. Chop before
you're covering the Yankees and somebody's reading your stuff and like, oh,
seroually know what they're talking about. So yeah, I love
high school sports. And you you talked about how sometimes
(04:46):
when you write these high school sports stories, oftentimes when
these kids go to college or end up in the pros.
You said you'll refer back to those stories. Has that
happened to you prior? Have you been able to go
back to a story you wrote about a high school?
Ask late and kind of like, can't I wrote the
story about you in the past. Let's connect again. You know,
it's crazy. I actually covered to buy a Terrist on
(05:08):
Long Island and I have not covered the NBA in yeah,
more than a decade, because I've been covering the covering
football for a decade. But I remember when Tobias Harris
went to He's from Long Island, so he went to
when he went first he went to have Hollow Hills
West out in Suffolk, and then I covered him at
(05:31):
Long Island Lutheran. So it's crazy to think about. You know,
there weren't a ton of Long Island athletes that I
covered that ended up going on to, you know, be
big and bad in the NBA or NFL. But um,
you know, like somebody like the britishaw Ferguson. I didn't
cover him, you know, but the fact that I worked
(05:52):
for Newsday like he had a connection. He was from Freeport.
You know, when you sit down in a locker room
and you're able to talk to a guy and you're
able to call up articles in the archive about you know,
him being all Long Island like that kind of stuff,
Like that's really cool. Um. I know Long Island in
New York isn't really a hotbed of football talent, but um,
(06:14):
when you have those rare kids that that you do
see go on and because and matern grow and you're
just like whoa, Um, that's pretty specialized. Think yeah, yeah,
that makes sense. I think I think it could be
very special as well. You mentioned cutting your teeth in
the industry. You said that when you start off with
the small stuff, the high school sports covering that you said,
that's really how you get your footsteps in and that's
(06:36):
how you're able to make those mistakes. What made you
different in your eyes? Because being a person, a woman,
especially in this industry, uh, the sports industry can oftentimes
be very very competitive. So when you were kind of
making your way through writing and then moving up on
in your career, what to you in your eyes made
(06:58):
you different and stand out from other people? I tell
I actually tell us a lot um. The mistake that
I made when I got in the jet speat was
I wanted to blend in with the other b writers.
I wanted to you know, I was looking at it like, well,
Rich the meat he's been covering the jets, you know,
(07:18):
for as long as some of us have been alive,
you know, like that kind of thing. And I love
risk also say um. But I think it took me
about a couple of years to realize that that's actually
the worst thing I could do, because what makes somebody
like Rich to Meny great is not the thing that's
that's gonna make me great. Like we're different, you know,
(07:41):
different age, you know, different genders, different ethnicities, Like the
way that I see the world is completely different. And
I think for me, I was a psych major undergrad.
I was a PSIKE in African American Studies double major
undergrad at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, and I thought that
I was gonna go on and pursue the Pike degree.
(08:03):
So the shift to journalism. I always like to write,
but the shift to journalism, it was important that I
lean on that psyches background because every interaction you have
with people, that's you're trying to get to know them,
Like I think sometimes in sports journalism, we we tend
to treat athletes like like that they're all that. All
(08:24):
that they are are athletes and nothing else. And we
talk about them getting cut and and you know, losing
starting jobs in like a really callous way in general.
And I think what I try to do and go
in locker rooms and develop relationships, like you know, ask
guys about their kids and their families and their moms.
(08:45):
Like I I would love talking to like Austin Howard's mom,
Like I would just be like, hey, how you do
you know? Like that, because I think when you start
to it sounds really basic. But I don't think enough
journalists do that. I think they say love these athletes, um,
and see them as three dimensional figures who also have interests,
(09:07):
hobbies and dreams outside of things football. Um. And especially
as you mentioned, being a woman, being a black woman
is a totally different thing. So you know, when you
walk into los rooms and you see people that look
like you or might see you as a sister or
you know, I think it's an incumbent upon me to
(09:29):
also bring that humanity. And I think that that's the
thing that I've tried to do when talking to coaches
or players. Um, yeah, the who, the jut of signing
like that is important football stuff. But I think that
the thing that's always drawn me to sports reporting and
storytelling is being that person that an athlete or a
(09:53):
coach can trust with you know, really sad stuff, heartbreaking stuff,
triumph and stuff, and they trust you to tell their
story and to tell it rights and and to to
be that conduit between them and the fans and give
the fans a different perspective of a player they may
only love on the field. Yeah. You brought up a
(10:15):
great point. I'd actually love to dive a little bit
deeper into that talking about relationship building and how that's
super important, especially as a journalist like you mentioned, to
bring that human aspect of these players and to to
build that trust that way, you know, you're not just
asking questions when you need an answer for an article,
or or you're not just talking them when you need
(10:35):
to talk about football, kind of providing that human aspect.
I oftentimes tell people a lot how important that is,
especially when you're inside that locker room and the players
are seeing you come in and do your job every
single day. To build those relationships and to build almost
like a friendship to where people can trust you. It's
super important. But you mentioned, like you said from your
(10:56):
perspective being a black woman, it's you said that it
was important for you to be able to tell those stories.
Why is it so important to have so many different voices,
especially you being a black woman in this industry? Why
is that so important to be able to share your
opinion and share your perspective, Because, I mean, when you
(11:18):
look at sports journalism, there aren't a lot of faces
that look like mine, and I mean black women. Um,
you know, like I left the jet speed August and
I went to Buffalo, and I remember people were like,
what the hell are you doing going? Like why would
you leave New York? In the Buffalo New York? You know,
(11:39):
but um like, why would you go all the way
to western New York when you're here in like the
top media market. The reason I went was because they,
the Buffaloans, created a position for me to be a
sports columnist and because they wanted my voice, and they
realized that in that market, I was the first person
(12:01):
that ever looked like me that would have their pay
you know, their picture, their headshot on the front page
of the sports sections and bring a different perspective that
was much needed and long overdue. Um and so like that,
like that job, I think for me it was really
important because I didn't want to leave Jersey, New York City.
(12:21):
I'm a Brooklyn girl, Like, I didn't want to leave
this area. But for me, the opportunity two two write
about things from my perspective to at least, you know,
be able to talk to players about, you know, and
at that time in Buffalo is like you know, President
Trump and like the kneeling and Kaepernick and it was
(12:43):
just all these things that were taking place on the
football field, you know, before games and was bleeding into
politics and social justice. And so to have my frame
of reference to know what it's like to be a
person of color in America, you know, Um, that's a
unique perspective. It's a unique perspective to be a black
(13:05):
woman in America and then to also be a black
woman covering black at predominantly black athletes in the NFL. Like,
I think there is a sometimes there's a level of comfort,
there's a level of understanding. There's some things that don't
need to be explained because you you share that experience
or that perspective. Um. But it's also an opportunity to
(13:28):
you know, challenge people on some of the things they
say are asked or a probe deeper. Um. You know.
And and it's not just black athletes like that. You know.
I've talked about social justice and and and things like
that with with with white athletes too. It's not it's
not just a black thing that I think because issues
(13:49):
affected me personally, I'm curious about what guys may think.
Because you can't be a black athlete and not be
thinking about what it's like to be a black man
in America, you know what I mean. You don't just
like you don't just like you know, for like the
you know, the suit off and hang it up and
then play in play football and then like put about
(14:11):
you know, it's like that is part of your everyday existence.
And I think that's what I mean when I say
in sports journalism, we don't look at the whole picture
of athletes. We just care about, Okay, fantasy like how
many like how many points are gonna get me on Sunday?
Like are you starting, are you injured? What's going on? Um?
And all that is important, But there's another side too
(14:32):
that that you can also focus up absolutely, And do
you feel like when you were able to be there,
like you said, they created that position for you. Do
you feel like you made a difference while you were
there and make a difference? Um, you know what, No,
I I it definitely was. It was. And I remember
(14:56):
when I was in Buffalo like that. I don't people,
you know, would it at me, like why do you
always talk about me? Like why do you even mention
that you're a black female sports columnist and that, and
like why can't you just be a sports columist? And
I said, because I think there is there's a there's
(15:16):
a need for me to own that space and to say, yes,
m I'm the only black female national NFL TV reporter
that we have right now. That's not to say that
I'm super special, because my mom thinks I am, but
that's not I'm not you know more specially anything else.
But that's to just show that, you know, it is
(15:41):
when we have had a black president and we you know,
we have a female vice president who's a woman of color. Um,
so steps are made, but it's a but I always
wondered why people were so triggered by like why are
you really breeds like that's the problem. It's like it's
like to act like like sports and politics and social
(16:04):
like they're not connected. I think is wrong. Like historically
we've seen that. So when you asked me, did I
make a difference in Buffle? I think people took notice
of the stuff I wrote for sure. Um, just because
especially at that time, because like I said, with Trump
and the players and all that stuff, there was a
lot of discussions happening in locker rooms. There were a
(16:25):
lot of protests, you know, Like I remember a story
where I was driving to the Bills stadium for practice
and I saw Betteran holding flags like they were Bills hands,
but they were protesting guys kneeling and like Lashawn McCoy
like not saying for the anthem and stuff like that.
And I went and talked to them and and got
their perspective, and then I walked right into the locker
(16:47):
room and was like, Hey, do you guys know that
they're they're veterans outside like protesting, you know, what are
your thoughts and what would you want them to know
about why you did this? And talking to players, and um,
I just think being able to see football beyond the
white lines. I think is really and it's not just football,
like all sports. I think it's really important and that
(17:10):
you know, that was an a one story, Um, and
it got a lot of feedback because those people who
were protesting got to to read quotes from the athletes
as they cheer for on Sundays, but they were frustrated
with and the athletes got to give their side of
it and say, these are these are topics that are
important to me. Here is why. And you hope that
(17:31):
through the dialogue, through listening and understanding, that people can
see different perspectives. And how important was it for you
to be able to tell those stories because like you said,
you you got both sides of the story. You're able
to approach fans or veterans who we're protesting something, and
then you were able to walk, like you said, right
into that locker room. We can talk to those very
(17:52):
same players. How important was it for you to be
able to tell those stories? It was? It was really
important because again, the reason I was in Buffalo because
nobody looks like me. And that's not a knock on Buffalo.
Like on the jet seats, there wasn't anybody that looked
like me either. Um, and you think like New York City,
like super like melting pot of the you know, um,
(18:14):
it's very important because when everybody's got a unique perspective.
But I think when you are, whether you're a woman,
whether you're a personal pull like I think those um
added pieces of your identity do color how you see
things and and it triggers what stand out you. Like
(18:34):
one of the most important stories I ever wrote was
was on the Four, like Mike mccagnen and his wife
and talking about domestic violence and how a friend of theirs,
you know, was murdered by her husband across the street
from where they live. Like I'm sitting with the Jets
general manager and he's in tears talking about what that
day was like and the signs that they missed, and
(18:56):
talking to his wife about why you know, she's the
forts like the One Love Foundation, because you know, there's
so many signs and relationships and we think, hey, like
that's their business, like who am I to pry or whatever,
and they're you know, looking back, there are there may
be signs that we miss and how it's important to
get younger people to understand the warning signs so to speak.
(19:20):
So like those are the stories that that I think about,
you know, as a writer who's transitioned on the TV,
even though I still write columns and articles. Really, again,
those are the stories that I'm gonna carry with Those
are the stories that I talked about when I do
podcasts or interviews or speaking engagements. Not that you know,
(19:41):
I was there for the butt fumble. I was there,
like I was there for like all sorts of football things.
But it's the the the impact that that and that
trust that you generate with people and to tell their
stories like that. To me, why else would you be
doing this if you didn't want to have the at
sort of impact. And do you think really we're seeing
(20:03):
a change a little bit in how storytelling is going
in regards to professional athletes, because I think there are
a lot of individuals who have the same mindset as
you and want to go out and tell these humanistic
sides of these stories. So in your time as a
as a professional writer and reporter over your career, have
(20:23):
you seen a shift in interest um in regards to
people also wanting to hear those human sides of the
stories and not just the XS and os. I think
people do want to hear them, right, but I don't know,
like as sometimes you know, I just have this conversation
with someone the other day, you know, talking about like
(20:46):
documentaries and how the ability to visually go into people homes, neighborhoods,
environments and and be that lens um and sort of
transpose their story to the masses, Like how come more
people don't don't you know, watch documentaries or how come more?
(21:06):
You know? Um, when when newsrooms are cut, you know,
when when people are cut, it's like, hey, we gotta
we gotta slash that that future story you wrote, we
don't have space in the paper. We've gotta cut the
cut the paper. So your two thousand worth story now
is you know, eight hundred words? Or you know, when
you go to different departments in news organizations, just like
(21:28):
the long form reporting departments, like they seem to get
like cut first. And I don't feel I don't know.
I as somebody who is all about human insut stories
as much as as what happens on the court and
on the field, I find it disheartening sometimes. But but
because I am so permitted, I'm drawn to those stories. Um.
(21:52):
I will also I will always push to write human
insrut stories. I will always UM. I thought with a
lot of editors, UM, you know, this needs to be
the amount of words that I say it needs to be. UM,
because I believe in the story. UM. I hope fans
want that as much as they want the box scores
and want the fantasy updates. All of that is important.
(22:15):
But I think if we I think this is a
societal issue too, If we don't start seeing people as
their full sells and understand what and what people are
going through and be sensitive to to other people's situations
that are different than ours, I think that's where I
think it bleeds into you know, that that behavior of
(22:36):
not looking at people, like seeing people but not really
looking at them and and understanding them. I think that
bleeds into sports. Um. So if we can sort of,
you know again, look at people as three dimensional figures
and understand what their journeys have been like, I think,
UM hopefully fans will will read that stuff, will tune
(22:58):
into those dot umentaries and features and all that stuff,
because it's important, definitely important. And I think as long
as we have writers and individuals like you who are
willing to tell those stories and willing to share them
out out in the world, Hopefully people are going to
be more and more interested in getting to know who
these athletes are outside of, like you said, your fantasy
(23:20):
football team, or outside of the field and the court.
This might be hard, but can you recall one of
your favorite humanistic stories you've ever been able to tell.
There's probably a lot of them, but can you maybe
recall one that sticks out? You know, the Macagnum one
is a is a top top three for me. Um.
(23:42):
When I actually worked for the Washington Post, one of
my many generals and jobs before you sid between the
has been UM. I worked for Watching Posts covering the
watching football team, and they had an assistant coach who
actually played for the team. He has a draft pick Um,
and he was injured during a game. Like he physically
(24:04):
went like he felt like his legs go numb, and
like he had lost feelings, you know, on one side
of his body's arms, and like the story was about
Um names Tissandre, Like the story was about how he
you know, I talked to him when he was a
you know, an intern and wanted to be a coach,
(24:25):
you know, and he was still with the organization, and
he took me through that moment of getting hit you know,
helmet's helmet and and how it felt that this stinging
pain and you know even now, like his arm is
still like one of his arm soil dinner that like
you know, the musclesn't you know where it needs to be.
He wanted to still play and like and all those
(24:46):
emotions of he's from he's from the area, like wanting
to you know, he was like a fan favorite and
then all of a sudden it just stopped. You know,
it's like the football stop. Now we're worried about, hey,
your range of motion, Like, hey, what kind of life
are you gonna be able to live? Um? You know,
like we sat for over an hour and like when
(25:09):
you when you like the Oprah Barbara Walters, like when
you get people on the brink of emotion or you
you see the tears fall, like you understand in that
moment like holy thread, Like they are you know, like
they are being so forthcoming and there is no better
feelings for me. Not because I made somebody cries, but
(25:32):
because they trust me enough and like it's a safe
enough space where they can go back and like relive
those moments. But that's the most stressful. These stories, the
human interest stories, and the most stressful for me, like
panic inducing because you're like, I have to get this right.
I have to nail it, you know, like when you
(25:54):
profile Pam Oliver, it's like she's an idol, Like you
have to nail it, like you have, like she's help
you about her life and her struggles. Like you can't
make factual mistakes like you you need you want to
paint the scenes for people who aren't I who weren't there,
you know. Um so yeah, like Pam Oliver profile and
the Kaisan Dare profile. Um yeah, those just profiling Troy
(26:18):
Agment and destroy ament Um for Yahoo as well. Like that.
That's that's um, that is cool. That is very cool
to see people that you admired on the field or
you know, in the you know, broadcasting games to be
able to that they are sitting down with you and
trust me to tell their stories and then are amazed like, wow,
(26:40):
you you really did capture me. If somebody says you
told my story, well, I think there's no greater compliments
that a journalists taken. I can't I can imagine. I
can imagine how that feeling must feel when when you
hear somebody or somebody looks you in the eyes and says, wow,
you really captured or told my story. Well, I can
(27:00):
literally just imagine the feeling that that is. How do
you deal with that pressure because you said there's not pressure,
not well girl, that well, um it is. I tell
you when I write those kind of stories, like I
don't sleep like I I working. You know, Um, I
(27:21):
think we all have part of the day where we
are most productive. I just happen to know I am
not uh productive between the hours of two and five.
Like I don't know what it is about the like
latest afternoon, early evening, I just cannot but I'm very
productive in the like five o'clock to like seven am,
(27:42):
or you know, eleven o'clock to like four am, Like
I know, nighttime, early morning that's my gym. So I
that's when I'll work like and I don't sleep, and
I drink more coffee than I normally drink, which is
a lot um because you're just so stressed, like you
you stress over every every word like as a writer,
like every word that's in there has a purpose like that,
(28:05):
like if you like you're that obsessive about it. Um,
the flow, like I read sentences out loud, like I
say them out loud. The flow like how you know
the pacing, Um, you know, if all the sentences are
really long, like then it just drones on. Like you know,
you want to grab the reader, like if the if
the lead of the story doesn't put a reader in
(28:27):
a place and time and give them and sort of
paint that picture for them, then you did it wrong.
And so for and when you have these great interviews,
you have a lot of great material to work with.
What's the best way of getting into this person's story. Um.
A lot of times I'll write like three or four
different leads, you know, and stress over which one is right. Um.
(28:49):
So I remember doing that with my profile Alex Smith
when I was aout to watch the post and I
did that. That was like I obsessed over that story
because it was like, here's this guy coming to d
C for the first you know, We've got this crazy
back start between San Francisco and you know, Utah and
Kansas City and now he's here. Um so yeah, like
the because somebody trusted you that much, so for you
(29:11):
to store the beast slip or sort of like like
I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just gonna want
off this or like I like I can't, I couldn't
physically use that um. And there's always that like stress
of like when you file it, like until you here,
until you see feedback on Twitter, whether you hear from
the person directly, until you get an idea of like Okay,
(29:34):
how is this received? Like you don't, I don't relax
because it's like I think, I hope this is good. Um,
but until like you know, until try igumate history of like,
oh that was a good nat you know, like or
or if he's for the pam all of the story
and he's like that was great, you know Pama's or
Pama relives you a voicemail that's like Kimberly, you did
(29:57):
an amazing and it's like who chap, I can breathe,
like when I think that's what excites you about the writing,
being able to knock it off the park, you know. Well,
on that note, obviously, there's a really big difference in
the writing aspect your job and then the reporting aspect
of your job on television. What are some of the
biggest differences that you've noticed from after you transition from
(30:20):
I mean you're still right, like you said, but now
you're really on TV mainly. Yeah, well, first of all,
just understanding what this equipment is, what the terminology is,
you know, and forbulas don't know. I actually started at
Eastern March ninth of last year, so I had rookie
camp and then came home without like a phone, laptop,
(30:44):
none of that. Said. You know, we were fifth bumping,
like elbow bumping, like hey, okay, see you. Bosses were
sort of like, okay, we'll get you in studio like
next month whatever, and then like a day later everything
stopped because of COVID. So we talked about it difficult
transition to TV. You know, I've never had a TV job.
(31:05):
Like I had done online stuff for Yahoo Sports, but
it's not the same thing. So to not even have
like I have no idea what it's like to work
at Eastern, not in a pandemic, like that's crazy, you
know what I mean, Like, yeah, no frame of reference
of what ESPN life or TV life is really like
(31:26):
or how so. So you know the other reporters that have,
you know, like my colleagues like they've been on the
sideline like free game, like they've been gonna play Like
I've never had experience, you know, all the work that
you do, it's it's on the phone. It's like, you know,
you're relying on PR people a little bit more UM
(31:47):
or giving them a heads up, you know, because you
can't just grab guys when you want to in person. UM.
Teams became more of a gatekeeper, you know, when it
came to access. So that's challenging. UM. You know, reportings,
report it. The The challenge is no FaceTime, especially when
you're new to a network. UM. But I've been lucky
(32:08):
in that even during COVID, like I've you know, I've
closed the first take, you know with you know, the
two women that I do our podcast with first take,
her take, you know, we've we've did the first take,
her takeover. We do get Up, you know, NFL Live. UM.
It's more so about the reporting. You know, you do
(32:28):
all this reporting and a story. I'm able to give detail,
I'm able to paint scenes, p D. Yeah, you can't
do any of that. You can give detail, but it's
that it's you know, depending on the show you're on,
if it's Sports Center, if it's a pregame hit, if
you're outside live in hinds Field and you know the
the Ravens and Steelers are finally getting ready to play
(32:50):
that Thanksgiving game three weeks later. You know, the hit
that you do has to be just information I talked
to so and so or sources tell me blah blah blah.
But the clips are, you know, more condensed, like hey,
sports tennis, talk for a minute. That's it. You know,
this is a second hit. This is that, um, first take,
(33:11):
talk for two minutes. You know what I mean. So
it's it's what I've learned about TV. It's how the
reporting aspect yess is different because you don't get to
be in locker rooms, you don't get to meet people
for lunch, you don't get to introduce yourself in person.
But it's how you you deliver that information that's a
lot different. I don't have two thousand words to tell
(33:31):
this amazing story. I gotta let you know Ravens and
Steelers postponed three times because of COVID. These guys aren't
expected to play. Game is supposed to kick off, you
know like that sort of stuff, UM, which is challenging
when you've never done TV before. I probably asked you
some tips. I don't know, um, but I think The
great thing about it is like everything in my career,
(33:55):
like I have not listened to anybody when it comes
to hey, should I go to Buffalo or should I
stay in New York. It's like, no, I'm going to Buffalo,
no matter what people said, like, hey, I'm at the
watching post, this is cool. Should I leave and go
to Yahoo Sports and be a national writer and columnists?
People are like, oh, I don't know, it's watching posts
(34:15):
like to believe, And it's like, no, I'm gonna leave,
um yeahoo sports. Like I'm happy I didn't want it,
like I was good be a stand came offered me
a job. It's like, you know, like I've been really
lucky and blessed in the opportunities I've had, but I've
also thrown caution to the wind a bit and said,
I don't really care what other people think about how
(34:38):
my journey should go because there's no blueprint for that's
going to tell you. Be a psych an African American stuff.
He's double major at a small liberal arts school in Connecticut,
work in finance, then get through masters in magazine journalism,
and then never worked for a magazine, only worked newspapers,
(35:00):
and then end up on TV, like there's no nobody
has that journey, and they probably shouldn't because that's crazy.
But it's been great. It's been great for me because, um,
I think I lean into what makes me me, and
I think other people can see that I'm authentic and
that I really do care about the work, um and
(35:21):
stuff like that. So it's been I've been really fortunate.
Well let's send it on a positive note. Right there.
You mentioned the transition and how there's not a blueprint,
but you said you're you're always yourself. You said you're
not afraid to be authentic and you don't let other
people tell you what to do, like no, I'm gonna
go here. Where does that confidence stem from? I wish
(35:44):
I do? UM, don't like listen, don't get me wrong,
Like there is fear that's always lurking, because you know,
especially being on national TV, everybody want to tell you
like you messed up or you stuck or whatever. And
at times you're like m another times you're like you
know what, I don't get out of here? Um, But
(36:05):
where does it come from? I think because I did it.
I never set out the only thing I said when
I was younger was I don't want to cover the Yankees,
which clearly I did get to cover them, but I
was never a Yankee beat, right, and I the other
dream I had was right for ESPN the magazine. But
outside of that, I don't think I've ever had the
five year plan of like, I can't wait to like
(36:28):
get to ESPN and I'm gonna host Sports Center, or
I can't wait to like be the like hosted Good
Morning America. Like I'm like, I don't think I have.
I don't. I never said that, and I think because
I haven't been so locked into what I should be.
It's when these opportunities come I'm able to picture, Okay,
if I stay where I am, what would my life
(36:48):
look like? And if I take this opportunity to sleep
of faith, what would my life look like? And oftentimes
when I cannot picture what that next step will look like,
then it's time for me to take that opportunity because
that unknown and that maybe I can make it whatever
I wanted to be. UM, as opposed to staying here
(37:10):
when I know exactly what every day will look like,
you know, um, And at each juncture, I asked myself
that question, and you know, I think you just have
to you have to want to just try to do
something else like there's there's if you are confident in
your ability to work and grind and not not just
(37:33):
be like everybody needs a brand. I get that, but
the brand also can be like I'm good at my job, Um,
I care about the reporting, like I've got to do
the reasons, Like if you're putting in the work, then
scary decisions are still scary, but they don't stop you.
That fear doesn't stop you. And I think I'm just listen.
I'm from Brooklyn, Like I never thought that i'd be
(37:55):
doing any like I would be the daily news and
they're like, oh, Mike Lucago, this is pretty cool. I
never thought i'd be in press boxes next to Mike Lupaca,
you know what I mean. But I think if you
just throw cross in the window a little bit and
work hard and and just trust that wherever you're supposed
to be is where you're supposed to be, I think
it it generally works out if you're committed to the
(38:17):
to the craft. Well, it's an incredible note to end on.
Kimberly Martin with ESPN, thank you so much for joining
me for the New Yorker podcast. It's wonderful, wonderful to
talk to you and get to listen to your story
a little bit more so. Thanks so much so, I
appreciate it.
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome into another episode of The New
Yorker Podcast presented by Visa. I'm your host Olivia Landis.
This week we have ESPN NFL reporter and co host
of the First Take Her Take podcast, Kimberly Martin. Kimberly,
thank you so much for joining me on the New
Yorker Podcast. I appreciate your time. Hello, thanks for having me.
(00:23):
I appreciate it, Kimberly. For those that are listening and
those that are watching, UM, I'm not sure if they
know or not, but you actually covered the Jets for
a very long time in the NFL before your position
with ESPN. How long did you cover the Jets as
a beat? So I was actually yeah, the twitter from
the day has been with me for a while. Um.
(00:45):
I actually the backup Death Seed writer during the Wrexham
Sanchez days and I got the official beat for Newsday
I think April twelve, so I think it was nineteen
days after the team traded for Tim Tebow. So I
hit the ground running as far as uh first time
(01:07):
beat ever, So yeah, the Jets were the first, and
um I left I think training camp of Todd's last
few sixteen, I don't even remember. It's been a while,
but oh yeah, I left. So it's been a while.
And where did you get your start prior to becoming
(01:27):
a Jets beat reporter because you said that you used
to be a backup beat reporter, But where did you
start in writing prior to that? So I have this
like crazy career path. I can't even call the crazy
journalism path career path. Um, I worked in finance before
I even got my masters in magazine journalism. I'm oh,
(01:54):
but I actually the first job I started as an
intern covering high school sports and Jersey of Burden Record,
and then after about a year and a half, I
went to Newsday and worked my way up very quickly.
Two years of covering high school sports on the Island,
um a lot of a lot of field hockey, a
lot of men's basketball, football, and then two years as
(02:16):
a g a general assignment, so I covered a lot
of Yankees games, a lot of Mets games. I covered
the New York City Marathon, uh hofstar St John's, um
it's mad type so and then you know, I did
some Jets giants going in here and there for regular writers.
I did all of that prior to getting the full
(02:38):
time beat. I was asked by my editor Newsday, which
beat do you want you gotta take one to Do
you want to cover the Jets, the Mets or at
that time the Nets were moving to Brooklyn, And I
was like, well, I've been around the Jets a little
bit covering rex Covering rex ons be so bad. So
that's how I ended up covering the Jets. And you
mentioned that you covered high school sports actually for a
(03:00):
how much did that help prepare you for the bigger
steps in your career covering some of those smaller type
of sports. I think you know that when I used
to talk to college students or just high school students,
I would actually say I missed covering high school sports
a lot. And I think when you're in it, when
you're in class and you want to be a journalist,
(03:22):
so you want to be a writer, you think, oh,
I can't wait to cover to the Yankees full Cob,
I can't wait to have this beat. But high schools,
you know, and I didn't cover high schools like that long.
When you think about I moved up really quickly, which
was great, but I missed the days because you're the
first people to interact with these high school athletes, you know,
(03:44):
like Greg Olson, make it's from Jersey, you know what
I mean. There's so many kids that that come from
these cities that you're in and you're covering them on
the ground floor and you're getting their stories. You're telling
their stories first. So a lot of times as a
pro writer, as a national writer, when you do research
on guys like you call up some of the articles
(04:04):
that were written about them in high school and college.
So I always tell you. I always tell students like,
don't be in such a rush to start covering the
Yankees or start covering the depths of the Giants or
the Knicks or something like that. That will come. But
you cut your teeth. You know, the mistakes that you
can make um learning about sports, you can make those
(04:25):
mistakes on a smaller level one and the spotlight isn't
on you, and it allows you that time to grow
and get better and to develop your writing. Chop before
you're covering the Yankees and somebody's reading your stuff and like, oh,
seroually know what they're talking about. So yeah, I love
high school sports. And you you talked about how sometimes
(04:46):
when you write these high school sports stories, oftentimes when
these kids go to college or end up in the pros.
You said you'll refer back to those stories. Has that
happened to you prior? Have you been able to go
back to a story you wrote about a high school?
Ask late and kind of like, can't I wrote the
story about you in the past. Let's connect again. You know,
it's crazy. I actually covered to buy a Terrist on
(05:08):
Long Island and I have not covered the NBA in yeah,
more than a decade, because I've been covering the covering
football for a decade. But I remember when Tobias Harris
went to He's from Long Island, so he went to
when he went first he went to have Hollow Hills
West out in Suffolk, and then I covered him at
(05:31):
Long Island Lutheran. So it's crazy to think about. You know,
there weren't a ton of Long Island athletes that I
covered that ended up going on to, you know, be
big and bad in the NBA or NFL. But um,
you know, like somebody like the britishaw Ferguson. I didn't
cover him, you know, but the fact that I worked
(05:52):
for Newsday like he had a connection. He was from Freeport.
You know, when you sit down in a locker room
and you're able to talk to a guy and you're
able to call up articles in the archive about you know,
him being all Long Island like that kind of stuff,
Like that's really cool. Um. I know Long Island in
New York isn't really a hotbed of football talent, but um,
(06:14):
when you have those rare kids that that you do
see go on and because and matern grow and you're
just like whoa, Um, that's pretty specialized. Think yeah, yeah,
that makes sense. I think I think it could be
very special as well. You mentioned cutting your teeth in
the industry. You said that when you start off with
the small stuff, the high school sports covering that you said,
that's really how you get your footsteps in and that's
(06:36):
how you're able to make those mistakes. What made you
different in your eyes? Because being a person, a woman,
especially in this industry, uh, the sports industry can oftentimes
be very very competitive. So when you were kind of
making your way through writing and then moving up on
in your career, what to you in your eyes made
(06:58):
you different and stand out from other people? I tell
I actually tell us a lot um. The mistake that
I made when I got in the jet speat was
I wanted to blend in with the other b writers.
I wanted to you know, I was looking at it like, well,
Rich the meat he's been covering the jets, you know,
(07:18):
for as long as some of us have been alive,
you know, like that kind of thing. And I love
risk also say um. But I think it took me
about a couple of years to realize that that's actually
the worst thing I could do, because what makes somebody
like Rich to Meny great is not the thing that's
that's gonna make me great. Like we're different, you know,
(07:41):
different age, you know, different genders, different ethnicities, Like the
way that I see the world is completely different. And
I think for me, I was a psych major undergrad.
I was a PSIKE in African American Studies double major
undergrad at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, and I thought that
I was gonna go on and pursue the Pike degree.
(08:03):
So the shift to journalism. I always like to write,
but the shift to journalism, it was important that I
lean on that psyches background because every interaction you have
with people, that's you're trying to get to know them,
Like I think sometimes in sports journalism, we we tend
to treat athletes like like that they're all that. All
(08:24):
that they are are athletes and nothing else. And we
talk about them getting cut and and you know, losing
starting jobs in like a really callous way in general.
And I think what I try to do and go
in locker rooms and develop relationships, like you know, ask
guys about their kids and their families and their moms.
(08:45):
Like I I would love talking to like Austin Howard's mom,
Like I would just be like, hey, how you do
you know? Like that, because I think when you start
to it sounds really basic. But I don't think enough
journalists do that. I think they say love these athletes, um,
and see them as three dimensional figures who also have interests,
(09:07):
hobbies and dreams outside of things football. Um. And especially
as you mentioned, being a woman, being a black woman
is a totally different thing. So you know, when you
walk into los rooms and you see people that look
like you or might see you as a sister or
you know, I think it's an incumbent upon me to
(09:29):
also bring that humanity. And I think that that's the
thing that I've tried to do when talking to coaches
or players. Um, yeah, the who, the jut of signing
like that is important football stuff. But I think that
the thing that's always drawn me to sports reporting and
storytelling is being that person that an athlete or a
(09:53):
coach can trust with you know, really sad stuff, heartbreaking stuff,
triumph and stuff, and they trust you to tell their
story and to tell it rights and and to to
be that conduit between them and the fans and give
the fans a different perspective of a player they may
only love on the field. Yeah. You brought up a
(10:15):
great point. I'd actually love to dive a little bit
deeper into that talking about relationship building and how that's
super important, especially as a journalist like you mentioned, to
bring that human aspect of these players and to to
build that trust that way, you know, you're not just
asking questions when you need an answer for an article,
or or you're not just talking them when you need
(10:35):
to talk about football, kind of providing that human aspect.
I oftentimes tell people a lot how important that is,
especially when you're inside that locker room and the players
are seeing you come in and do your job every
single day. To build those relationships and to build almost
like a friendship to where people can trust you. It's
super important. But you mentioned, like you said from your
(10:56):
perspective being a black woman, it's you said that it
was important for you to be able to tell those stories.
Why is it so important to have so many different voices,
especially you being a black woman in this industry? Why
is that so important to be able to share your
opinion and share your perspective, Because, I mean, when you
(11:18):
look at sports journalism, there aren't a lot of faces
that look like mine, and I mean black women. Um,
you know, like I left the jet speed August and
I went to Buffalo, and I remember people were like,
what the hell are you doing going? Like why would
you leave New York? In the Buffalo New York? You know,
(11:39):
but um like, why would you go all the way
to western New York when you're here in like the
top media market. The reason I went was because they,
the Buffaloans, created a position for me to be a
sports columnist and because they wanted my voice, and they
realized that in that market, I was the first person
(12:01):
that ever looked like me that would have their pay
you know, their picture, their headshot on the front page
of the sports sections and bring a different perspective that
was much needed and long overdue. Um and so like that,
like that job, I think for me it was really
important because I didn't want to leave Jersey, New York City.
(12:21):
I'm a Brooklyn girl, Like, I didn't want to leave
this area. But for me, the opportunity two two write
about things from my perspective to at least, you know,
be able to talk to players about, you know, and
at that time in Buffalo is like you know, President
Trump and like the kneeling and Kaepernick and it was
(12:43):
just all these things that were taking place on the
football field, you know, before games and was bleeding into
politics and social justice. And so to have my frame
of reference to know what it's like to be a
person of color in America, you know, Um, that's a
unique perspective. It's a unique perspective to be a black
(13:05):
woman in America and then to also be a black
woman covering black at predominantly black athletes in the NFL. Like,
I think there is a sometimes there's a level of comfort,
there's a level of understanding. There's some things that don't
need to be explained because you you share that experience
or that perspective. Um. But it's also an opportunity to
(13:28):
you know, challenge people on some of the things they
say are asked or a probe deeper. Um. You know.
And and it's not just black athletes like that. You know.
I've talked about social justice and and and things like
that with with with white athletes too. It's not it's
not just a black thing that I think because issues
(13:49):
affected me personally, I'm curious about what guys may think.
Because you can't be a black athlete and not be
thinking about what it's like to be a black man
in America, you know what I mean. You don't just
like you don't just like you know, for like the
you know, the suit off and hang it up and
then play in play football and then like put about
(14:11):
you know, it's like that is part of your everyday existence.
And I think that's what I mean when I say
in sports journalism, we don't look at the whole picture
of athletes. We just care about, Okay, fantasy like how
many like how many points are gonna get me on Sunday?
Like are you starting, are you injured? What's going on? Um?
And all that is important, But there's another side too
(14:32):
that that you can also focus up absolutely, And do
you feel like when you were able to be there,
like you said, they created that position for you. Do
you feel like you made a difference while you were
there and make a difference? Um, you know what, No,
I I it definitely was. It was. And I remember
(14:56):
when I was in Buffalo like that. I don't people,
you know, would it at me, like why do you
always talk about me? Like why do you even mention
that you're a black female sports columnist and that, and
like why can't you just be a sports columist? And
I said, because I think there is there's a there's
(15:16):
a need for me to own that space and to say, yes,
m I'm the only black female national NFL TV reporter
that we have right now. That's not to say that
I'm super special, because my mom thinks I am, but
that's not I'm not you know more specially anything else.
But that's to just show that, you know, it is
(15:41):
when we have had a black president and we you know,
we have a female vice president who's a woman of color. Um,
so steps are made, but it's a but I always
wondered why people were so triggered by like why are
you really breeds like that's the problem. It's like it's
like to act like like sports and politics and social
(16:04):
like they're not connected. I think is wrong. Like historically
we've seen that. So when you asked me, did I
make a difference in Buffle? I think people took notice
of the stuff I wrote for sure. Um, just because
especially at that time, because like I said, with Trump
and the players and all that stuff, there was a
lot of discussions happening in locker rooms. There were a
(16:25):
lot of protests, you know, Like I remember a story
where I was driving to the Bills stadium for practice
and I saw Betteran holding flags like they were Bills hands,
but they were protesting guys kneeling and like Lashawn McCoy
like not saying for the anthem and stuff like that.
And I went and talked to them and and got
their perspective, and then I walked right into the locker
(16:47):
room and was like, Hey, do you guys know that
they're they're veterans outside like protesting, you know, what are
your thoughts and what would you want them to know
about why you did this? And talking to players, and um,
I just think being able to see football beyond the
white lines. I think is really and it's not just football,
like all sports. I think it's really important and that
(17:10):
you know, that was an a one story, Um, and
it got a lot of feedback because those people who
were protesting got to to read quotes from the athletes
as they cheer for on Sundays, but they were frustrated
with and the athletes got to give their side of
it and say, these are these are topics that are
important to me. Here is why. And you hope that
(17:31):
through the dialogue, through listening and understanding, that people can
see different perspectives. And how important was it for you
to be able to tell those stories because like you said,
you you got both sides of the story. You're able
to approach fans or veterans who we're protesting something, and
then you were able to walk, like you said, right
into that locker room. We can talk to those very
(17:52):
same players. How important was it for you to be
able to tell those stories? It was? It was really
important because again, the reason I was in Buffalo because
nobody looks like me. And that's not a knock on Buffalo.
Like on the jet seats, there wasn't anybody that looked
like me either. Um, and you think like New York City,
like super like melting pot of the you know, um,
(18:14):
it's very important because when everybody's got a unique perspective.
But I think when you are, whether you're a woman,
whether you're a personal pull like I think those um
added pieces of your identity do color how you see
things and and it triggers what stand out you. Like
(18:34):
one of the most important stories I ever wrote was
was on the Four, like Mike mccagnen and his wife
and talking about domestic violence and how a friend of theirs,
you know, was murdered by her husband across the street
from where they live. Like I'm sitting with the Jets
general manager and he's in tears talking about what that
day was like and the signs that they missed, and
(18:56):
talking to his wife about why you know, she's the
forts like the One Love Foundation, because you know, there's
so many signs and relationships and we think, hey, like
that's their business, like who am I to pry or whatever,
and they're you know, looking back, there are there may
be signs that we miss and how it's important to
get younger people to understand the warning signs so to speak.
(19:20):
So like those are the stories that that I think about,
you know, as a writer who's transitioned on the TV,
even though I still write columns and articles. Really, again,
those are the stories that I'm gonna carry with Those
are the stories that I talked about when I do
podcasts or interviews or speaking engagements. Not that you know,
(19:41):
I was there for the butt fumble. I was there,
like I was there for like all sorts of football things.
But it's the the the impact that that and that
trust that you generate with people and to tell their
stories like that. To me, why else would you be
doing this if you didn't want to have the at
sort of impact. And do you think really we're seeing
(20:03):
a change a little bit in how storytelling is going
in regards to professional athletes, because I think there are
a lot of individuals who have the same mindset as
you and want to go out and tell these humanistic
sides of these stories. So in your time as a
as a professional writer and reporter over your career, have
(20:23):
you seen a shift in interest um in regards to
people also wanting to hear those human sides of the
stories and not just the XS and os. I think
people do want to hear them, right, but I don't know,
like as sometimes you know, I just have this conversation
with someone the other day, you know, talking about like
(20:46):
documentaries and how the ability to visually go into people homes, neighborhoods,
environments and and be that lens um and sort of
transpose their story to the masses, Like how come more
people don't don't you know, watch documentaries or how come more?
(21:06):
You know? Um, when when newsrooms are cut, you know,
when when people are cut, it's like, hey, we gotta
we gotta slash that that future story you wrote, we
don't have space in the paper. We've gotta cut the
cut the paper. So your two thousand worth story now
is you know, eight hundred words? Or you know, when
you go to different departments in news organizations, just like
(21:28):
the long form reporting departments, like they seem to get
like cut first. And I don't feel I don't know.
I as somebody who is all about human insut stories
as much as as what happens on the court and
on the field, I find it disheartening sometimes. But but
because I am so permitted, I'm drawn to those stories. Um.
(21:52):
I will also I will always push to write human
insrut stories. I will always UM. I thought with a
lot of editors, UM, you know, this needs to be
the amount of words that I say it needs to be. UM,
because I believe in the story. UM. I hope fans
want that as much as they want the box scores
and want the fantasy updates. All of that is important.
(22:15):
But I think if we I think this is a
societal issue too, If we don't start seeing people as
their full sells and understand what and what people are
going through and be sensitive to to other people's situations
that are different than ours, I think that's where I
think it bleeds into you know, that that behavior of
(22:36):
not looking at people, like seeing people but not really
looking at them and and understanding them. I think that
bleeds into sports. Um. So if we can sort of,
you know again, look at people as three dimensional figures
and understand what their journeys have been like, I think,
UM hopefully fans will will read that stuff, will tune
(22:58):
into those dot umentaries and features and all that stuff,
because it's important, definitely important. And I think as long
as we have writers and individuals like you who are
willing to tell those stories and willing to share them
out out in the world, Hopefully people are going to
be more and more interested in getting to know who
these athletes are outside of, like you said, your fantasy
(23:20):
football team, or outside of the field and the court.
This might be hard, but can you recall one of
your favorite humanistic stories you've ever been able to tell.
There's probably a lot of them, but can you maybe
recall one that sticks out? You know, the Macagnum one
is a is a top top three for me. Um.
(23:42):
When I actually worked for the Washington Post, one of
my many generals and jobs before you sid between the
has been UM. I worked for Watching Posts covering the
watching football team, and they had an assistant coach who
actually played for the team. He has a draft pick Um,
and he was injured during a game. Like he physically
(24:04):
went like he felt like his legs go numb, and
like he had lost feelings, you know, on one side
of his body's arms, and like the story was about
Um names Tissandre, Like the story was about how he
you know, I talked to him when he was a
you know, an intern and wanted to be a coach,
(24:25):
you know, and he was still with the organization, and
he took me through that moment of getting hit you know,
helmet's helmet and and how it felt that this stinging
pain and you know even now, like his arm is
still like one of his arm soil dinner that like
you know, the musclesn't you know where it needs to be.
He wanted to still play and like and all those
(24:46):
emotions of he's from he's from the area, like wanting
to you know, he was like a fan favorite and
then all of a sudden it just stopped. You know,
it's like the football stop. Now we're worried about, hey,
your range of motion, Like, hey, what kind of life
are you gonna be able to live? Um? You know,
like we sat for over an hour and like when
(25:09):
you when you like the Oprah Barbara Walters, like when
you get people on the brink of emotion or you
you see the tears fall, like you understand in that
moment like holy thread, Like they are you know, like
they are being so forthcoming and there is no better
feelings for me. Not because I made somebody cries, but
(25:32):
because they trust me enough and like it's a safe
enough space where they can go back and like relive
those moments. But that's the most stressful. These stories, the
human interest stories, and the most stressful for me, like
panic inducing because you're like, I have to get this right.
I have to nail it, you know, like when you
(25:54):
profile Pam Oliver, it's like she's an idol, Like you
have to nail it, like you have, like she's help
you about her life and her struggles. Like you can't
make factual mistakes like you you need you want to
paint the scenes for people who aren't I who weren't there,
you know. Um so yeah, like Pam Oliver profile and
the Kaisan Dare profile. Um yeah, those just profiling Troy
(26:18):
Agment and destroy ament Um for Yahoo as well. Like that.
That's that's um, that is cool. That is very cool
to see people that you admired on the field or
you know, in the you know, broadcasting games to be
able to that they are sitting down with you and
trust me to tell their stories and then are amazed like, wow,
(26:40):
you you really did capture me. If somebody says you
told my story, well, I think there's no greater compliments
that a journalists taken. I can't I can imagine. I
can imagine how that feeling must feel when when you
hear somebody or somebody looks you in the eyes and says, wow,
you really captured or told my story. Well, I can
(27:00):
literally just imagine the feeling that that is. How do
you deal with that pressure because you said there's not pressure,
not well girl, that well, um it is. I tell
you when I write those kind of stories, like I
don't sleep like I I working. You know, Um, I
(27:21):
think we all have part of the day where we
are most productive. I just happen to know I am
not uh productive between the hours of two and five.
Like I don't know what it is about the like
latest afternoon, early evening, I just cannot but I'm very
productive in the like five o'clock to like seven am,
(27:42):
or you know, eleven o'clock to like four am, Like
I know, nighttime, early morning that's my gym. So I
that's when I'll work like and I don't sleep, and
I drink more coffee than I normally drink, which is
a lot um because you're just so stressed, like you
you stress over every every word like as a writer,
like every word that's in there has a purpose like that,
(28:05):
like if you like you're that obsessive about it. Um,
the flow, like I read sentences out loud, like I
say them out loud. The flow like how you know
the pacing, Um, you know, if all the sentences are
really long, like then it just drones on. Like you know,
you want to grab the reader, like if the if
the lead of the story doesn't put a reader in
(28:27):
a place and time and give them and sort of
paint that picture for them, then you did it wrong.
And so for and when you have these great interviews,
you have a lot of great material to work with.
What's the best way of getting into this person's story. Um.
A lot of times I'll write like three or four
different leads, you know, and stress over which one is right. Um.
(28:49):
So I remember doing that with my profile Alex Smith
when I was aout to watch the post and I
did that. That was like I obsessed over that story
because it was like, here's this guy coming to d
C for the first you know, We've got this crazy
back start between San Francisco and you know, Utah and
Kansas City and now he's here. Um so yeah, like
the because somebody trusted you that much, so for you
(29:11):
to store the beast slip or sort of like like
I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just gonna want
off this or like I like I can't, I couldn't
physically use that um. And there's always that like stress
of like when you file it, like until you here,
until you see feedback on Twitter, whether you hear from
the person directly, until you get an idea of like Okay,
(29:34):
how is this received? Like you don't, I don't relax
because it's like I think, I hope this is good. Um,
but until like you know, until try igumate history of like,
oh that was a good nat you know, like or
or if he's for the pam all of the story
and he's like that was great, you know Pama's or
Pama relives you a voicemail that's like Kimberly, you did
(29:57):
an amazing and it's like who chap, I can breathe,
like when I think that's what excites you about the writing,
being able to knock it off the park, you know. Well,
on that note, obviously, there's a really big difference in
the writing aspect your job and then the reporting aspect
of your job on television. What are some of the
biggest differences that you've noticed from after you transition from
(30:20):
I mean you're still right, like you said, but now
you're really on TV mainly. Yeah, well, first of all,
just understanding what this equipment is, what the terminology is,
you know, and forbulas don't know. I actually started at
Eastern March ninth of last year, so I had rookie
camp and then came home without like a phone, laptop,
(30:44):
none of that. Said. You know, we were fifth bumping,
like elbow bumping, like hey, okay, see you. Bosses were
sort of like, okay, we'll get you in studio like
next month whatever, and then like a day later everything
stopped because of COVID. So we talked about it difficult
transition to TV. You know, I've never had a TV job.
(31:05):
Like I had done online stuff for Yahoo Sports, but
it's not the same thing. So to not even have
like I have no idea what it's like to work
at Eastern, not in a pandemic, like that's crazy, you
know what I mean, Like, yeah, no frame of reference
of what ESPN life or TV life is really like
(31:26):
or how so. So you know the other reporters that have,
you know, like my colleagues like they've been on the
sideline like free game, like they've been gonna play Like
I've never had experience, you know, all the work that
you do, it's it's on the phone. It's like, you know,
you're relying on PR people a little bit more UM
(31:47):
or giving them a heads up, you know, because you
can't just grab guys when you want to in person. UM.
Teams became more of a gatekeeper, you know, when it
came to access. So that's challenging. UM. You know, reportings,
report it. The The challenge is no FaceTime, especially when
you're new to a network. UM. But I've been lucky
(32:08):
in that even during COVID, like I've you know, I've
closed the first take, you know with you know, the
two women that I do our podcast with first take,
her take, you know, we've we've did the first take,
her takeover. We do get Up, you know, NFL Live. UM.
It's more so about the reporting. You know, you do
(32:28):
all this reporting and a story. I'm able to give detail,
I'm able to paint scenes, p D. Yeah, you can't
do any of that. You can give detail, but it's
that it's you know, depending on the show you're on,
if it's Sports Center, if it's a pregame hit, if
you're outside live in hinds Field and you know the
the Ravens and Steelers are finally getting ready to play
(32:50):
that Thanksgiving game three weeks later. You know, the hit
that you do has to be just information I talked
to so and so or sources tell me blah blah blah.
But the clips are, you know, more condensed, like hey,
sports tennis, talk for a minute. That's it. You know,
this is a second hit. This is that, um, first take,
(33:11):
talk for two minutes. You know what I mean. So
it's it's what I've learned about TV. It's how the
reporting aspect yess is different because you don't get to
be in locker rooms, you don't get to meet people
for lunch, you don't get to introduce yourself in person.
But it's how you you deliver that information that's a
lot different. I don't have two thousand words to tell
(33:31):
this amazing story. I gotta let you know Ravens and
Steelers postponed three times because of COVID. These guys aren't
expected to play. Game is supposed to kick off, you
know like that sort of stuff, UM, which is challenging
when you've never done TV before. I probably asked you
some tips. I don't know, um, but I think The
great thing about it is like everything in my career,
(33:55):
like I have not listened to anybody when it comes
to hey, should I go to Buffalo or should I
stay in New York. It's like, no, I'm going to Buffalo,
no matter what people said, like, hey, I'm at the
watching post, this is cool. Should I leave and go
to Yahoo Sports and be a national writer and columnists?
People are like, oh, I don't know, it's watching posts
(34:15):
like to believe, And it's like, no, I'm gonna leave,
um yeahoo sports. Like I'm happy I didn't want it,
like I was good be a stand came offered me
a job. It's like, you know, like I've been really
lucky and blessed in the opportunities I've had, but I've
also thrown caution to the wind a bit and said,
I don't really care what other people think about how
(34:38):
my journey should go because there's no blueprint for that's
going to tell you. Be a psych an African American stuff.
He's double major at a small liberal arts school in Connecticut,
work in finance, then get through masters in magazine journalism,
and then never worked for a magazine, only worked newspapers,
(35:00):
and then end up on TV, like there's no nobody
has that journey, and they probably shouldn't because that's crazy.
But it's been great. It's been great for me because, um,
I think I lean into what makes me me, and
I think other people can see that I'm authentic and
that I really do care about the work, um and
(35:21):
stuff like that. So it's been I've been really fortunate.
Well let's send it on a positive note. Right there.
You mentioned the transition and how there's not a blueprint,
but you said you're you're always yourself. You said you're
not afraid to be authentic and you don't let other
people tell you what to do, like no, I'm gonna
go here. Where does that confidence stem from? I wish
(35:44):
I do? UM, don't like listen, don't get me wrong,
Like there is fear that's always lurking, because you know,
especially being on national TV, everybody want to tell you
like you messed up or you stuck or whatever. And
at times you're like m another times you're like you
know what, I don't get out of here? Um, But
(36:05):
where does it come from? I think because I did it.
I never set out the only thing I said when
I was younger was I don't want to cover the Yankees,
which clearly I did get to cover them, but I
was never a Yankee beat, right, and I the other
dream I had was right for ESPN the magazine. But
outside of that, I don't think I've ever had the
five year plan of like, I can't wait to like
(36:28):
get to ESPN and I'm gonna host Sports Center, or
I can't wait to like be the like hosted Good
Morning America. Like I'm like, I don't think I have.
I don't. I never said that, and I think because
I haven't been so locked into what I should be.
It's when these opportunities come I'm able to picture, Okay,
if I stay where I am, what would my life
(36:48):
look like? And if I take this opportunity to sleep
of faith, what would my life look like? And oftentimes
when I cannot picture what that next step will look like,
then it's time for me to take that opportunity because
that unknown and that maybe I can make it whatever
I wanted to be. UM, as opposed to staying here
(37:10):
when I know exactly what every day will look like,
you know, um, And at each juncture, I asked myself
that question, and you know, I think you just have
to you have to want to just try to do
something else like there's there's if you are confident in
your ability to work and grind and not not just
(37:33):
be like everybody needs a brand. I get that, but
the brand also can be like I'm good at my job, Um,
I care about the reporting, like I've got to do
the reasons, Like if you're putting in the work, then
scary decisions are still scary, but they don't stop you.
That fear doesn't stop you. And I think I'm just listen.
I'm from Brooklyn, Like I never thought that i'd be
(37:55):
doing any like I would be the daily news and
they're like, oh, Mike Lucago, this is pretty cool. I
never thought i'd be in press boxes next to Mike Lupaca,
you know what I mean. But I think if you
just throw cross in the window a little bit and
work hard and and just trust that wherever you're supposed
to be is where you're supposed to be, I think
it it generally works out if you're committed to the
(38:17):
to the craft. Well, it's an incredible note to end on.
Kimberly Martin with ESPN, thank you so much for joining
me for the New Yorker podcast. It's wonderful, wonderful to
talk to you and get to listen to your story
a little bit more so. Thanks so much so, I
appreciate it.
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