April 4, 2025 • 23 mins
On this edition of the O-Zone Podcast, Rams General Manager and former Jaguars Pro Scout (1995-1997) Les Snead sits down with Jaguars Writer John Oehser. The crew reminisces on what it was like working during the expansion era Jaguars under Tom Coughlin. Les then details his relationship with James Gladstone and why he believes the time was right for James to take the Jaguars General Manager job.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Soon.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to the Ozone Podcast with Jaguars senior writer John Osher.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
All Right, welcome into this week's Ozone podcast. And I'm
excited about this one. It's it's a special guest. Uh,
Los Angeles Rams general manager Less Sneid and I Less,
I know, normally don't talk a lot team to team,
but with James Gladstone coming in, I appreciate you taking
the time.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
To do this.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Oh wait, this is where I started. So it's with
James going back.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It's full.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
It's definitely full story, right, and was able to rekindle
even a relationship with Tony Boselli during that sure, even
though I know he had been around doing his radio
thing and things like that.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
But he's always the core of the Jags.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
So I mean, you know what, what was the first
It's a pretty cool story for him, right first? Yeah,
first dra aspect ever, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Earns the yellow jacket.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I mean, anybody if you're picking first in the draft,
I know that so many years later he's gonna.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
First the pride of the Jaguars as well.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
And then and to be a you know, an integral
piece of running the Jags moving forward. And the cool
thing is when I when we were. When I was
talking to Tony about James We'll get to it, you
could just feel his passion. Uh it really just oohs,
I want what's best for the Jags. There was I'm
sure he doesn't have to do this. I mean, maybe
(01:26):
this is better than you know, doing a day job
or something like that. But you could just tell there's
this there's this part of him that, you know what,
I just want the Jags to get back to being
a little bit who they were when they started that.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
A lot of people probably don't even.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Remember because that was a pretty that was a pretty
cool run that coach Coauughlin started there.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
We'll get to James, and I'm excited about talking about him,
But something you just said struck me. How important is
it for an organization that element you're talking about with
Tony knowing what it's supposed to be, about, what the
culture is supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (02:02):
It makes sense, I think, especially in the tech world
now with this whole AI thing and everyone's trying to
get AI more intelligent, and really I think a lot
of times when you read about AI, it's those little nuances, right,
So you think Tony started there in nineteen ninety five
and he's been there for thirty years, So there is
so much nuance that's compounded over time that's just running
(02:25):
probably subliminal in his his breain.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So I think it's better to think about it.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
It's very important, especially if the motives are right, and
you see that probably would would college programs when you
if you can bring back someone who started or been
there before, either as a player, a student, assistant, things
like that.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
If the if you still have passion.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
If the motives are right, there is probably a vibe
there that are not outsider can't bring.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Just couldn't right.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
As hard as they would.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Try, it would take a long time to get the
amount of nuanced let's call it knowledge into that algorithm.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, I got you.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
N ninety seven.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You were with the Jacks.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Uh tell me about your start and your memories of Jacksonville.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I think the my I started, I was a I've
joked the mascot it.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Was, it was Curtis de Vorcee.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Sure, so there was an element of jealousy, uh there
because we're just low level employees.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
That was probably the lowest level in that building. We're
talking about the rubber floors, and so.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Scouting assistant was basically anything anyone needed to do, and
it wasn't scouting.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
And then a little bit that's how James started with myself.
But I can so jealous of Curtis because he was
a mascot and had it they him a car, and
we're we're really poor and just trying to survive. So
when we did play basketball, we would always try to
beat him. But it was all based on right, just
natural human nature and that so it started. I can
(03:59):
remember probably the first scouting report I ever wrote. Okay,
it was probably during a mini camp when there was
no pads going on. So I'd come from the SEC.
I thought I knew it all right, you're in the SEC,
big bad SEC, and I'd only really been a gradual
assistant coach there and said, but and I remember probably
(04:19):
rejecting John yorkobic when you saw John like this guy
it was easy to do, right, Yeah, just like this
guy couldn't even play at all. But so that shows
you how wrong, uh, you know, when you're when you
think you're a young know it all, how wrong you
can be.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Coughlin had a camp without pads.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
You know, I do think there was a moments where
we did go But I mean I was even thinking,
I can't even remember that.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Did we do? Did you do?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Did we even what were OTA's called?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Could you even go pads? Then?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I don't think you could go pads, but you could
certainly push envelopes, yes, and Tom was able to do that.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
So wait your best or how did that time with
Tom shapey?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I think it.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think I've I've tried to do a one liner
for each probably great coach, great front off, great executive,
whatever owner that you've been with. I just I think
we were laughing. We were talking about painting the walls.
What you do consistency was what I in the in
the and that's everybody go, okay, that is cliche, but
(05:29):
when you actually see someone live it every single day
where you I can remember Pat Die Senior, who was
a coach at Auburn, saying, there's going to be moments
where you're just not going to be.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Fired up to play a game on Saturday.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
It might be a hot, muggy, humid day in South Alabama.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
But if we.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Consistently practice at a certain time during the day during
the summer, all year long, when that opponent shows up
and you really didn't want to play. They may be
more fired up you because they're coming to Auburn. You'll
just by habit be better prepared to handle that humidity
(06:11):
and things like that. So that but Tom was when
I can remember this story and it has nothing to
do with football, but used to work out early in
the morning, and I would try to in a competitive way.
You know what, if Tom gets there early, I'm going
to get there early to work out. But he would
come in and he had his routine Monday through Friday,
(06:31):
whatever it was. But if it was Tuesday and he
started at this time on this machine, he started at
that time on that machine, and he went to the
next one, next one there, and then on Wednesday he
had his and.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
It was that way. That's how he lived.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
And I think in those times, if you think about it,
an expansion team to playing an AFC Championship game probably
year two and that run there over those first especially
three to four years, he had I think consistency living consistency. Yeah,
definitely paid dividends.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So how much truth is there to the Starbucks meeting
with James?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Take me through that.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
There's a lot of truth to the Starbucks meeting with James,
the one that the first time I met Jane or
I said that I didn't even meet James again. I
think everybody knows my son went to play football, and
really it was his dad is who really am impressed me.
So if you think at that time, my son's come
to Saint Louis, he's big into sports. I wish he
(07:31):
was more a Stem kid. Just wasn't a Stem kid.
And in Clayton High School at that point in time,
was it was. It was probably in the where it
was located more culturally art a lot of academic sports
was not its thing. Superintendent, their assistant superintendent said, you
ought to meet this guy, Gene Gladstone. We just hired him.
(07:52):
He had retired from coaching at ViOn.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
He was there.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
We're gonna try to We talked him into doing Clayton football.
I go meet with him and you're just like, you
know what, my son's playing for this guy, I don't.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Care if we win a game. That's who you want.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Developers, but being a GM and things, I was like,
I'm out of the I'm not going to be the
helicopter dad around the program. So I really didn't know
James but I did. I remember going to a first
PTA meeting and it was new school orientation, new student
or probably all kids back to school, and James was
in charge of extracurriculars and Clayton High School had maybe
(08:27):
had four hundred clubs, and I remember this young guy
getting up there and I'm like, I mean the way
he presented, I was like, I remember going home and
tell my wife I want to join a club, Like,
I don't know which club I'm joining, It's probably not
the chess club. I want to join the club. And
it was that impressive. But then and then the little
girls that my wife had met him at the bonfire, just.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
A very impressive human.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Again, I kind of dealt more with Gene his dad,
not necessarily James, and trying not to be the helicopter
I was well aware of.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
James was the OC.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
But when I you know, when we connected, I connected
with Gene his dad. But at that point, yes, the
he had he had reached out as we were going
to leave to go to Los Angeles and said, I'd
love to have a meeting with you. So we had
this Starbucks that was on the corner that I always
frequented a great place to write.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It was the old school Scarbucks where you had couches
and how.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
It used to be before everybody did mobile orders. Went
sat on a cool couch and talked about life. And
he said he might want to do right, you know,
this journey in the NFL, and not necessarily to be
a GM, but probably his his natural coded curiosity of expanding,
(09:39):
like let's call it broadening, expanding his horizons.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
But you still got a chance that a guy can
You saw something in him?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Oh it was.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I knew from again that meeting. I first saw him
present all of those clubs. The time my wife had
got to know him, she's very, very student, going okay,
this this is special, this is unique, this is different.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
This is not positive.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
And then and then and then also seeing how he
handled probably being OC with his dad, because a lot
of times that could be you could see kids taking.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Advantage of that role. Sure, and you could from afar.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Tell how he he really navigated, like I'm gonna try
to be the best offensive coordinator I can be. I'm
gonna try to help kids right, evolve, develop, get closer
to being a young adult. Not necessarily you know what,
I'm the OC. My dad's the head coach. So now
I'm gonna be right this, I'm gonna be rate people,
I'm gonna be cocky whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You can see how he navigated that far.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
So what it was an e because I, like I
told him, the only thing I need you to do
is dominate this if you come to LA. Number one
is I don't want you to get in this to
try to be a coach, Like I don't want you
to come working scouting for a couple of years and
then you go coach Like now we've wasted each other's time.
And he promised me that wasn't what he want wanted
to do. I said, okay, I said, we're going to LA.
(11:02):
I've never relocated. I've never been in a part of a relocation.
This is going to be hectic. All I need you
really to do is make sure I have green tea
from Starbucks, ice green tea when I needed And he dominated,
like if anybody can dominate it, like I had so much.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I had green tea at all times.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
The amount of green tea we probably emptied in the
scene was probably But what's interesting about James is from
that moment he had this sixth sense to really, really journal,
maybe what we needed, not just myself, but maybe the department.
(11:41):
And I always got you should have been a QB.
And maybe he couldn't pass because he was a receiver,
but he definitely could anticipate. He could read coverages, this
is where the balls should go now, and he anticipated,
so he anticipated getting green teas for myself, but then
from their point forward, he anticipated all the way up
to running basically our department, our draft.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And how.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
What was maybe the first step where beyond the green tea,
the first assignment where he went, Okay, this guy is
going to be I.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Think one thing is is let's call it navigating, let's
call it the dynamics of the people in the building.
And and and I remember I brought up the OC
thing for a reason. There's a lot of times people
will get let's call it if it's your chief of
staff or your assistant, and there's there're gonna be your
(12:36):
voice a lot of times across the building when you're
not even there and you don't even know. And there's
some that that maybe used that in a in a
bullying way. And I remember everyone in the building coming
to me and going that James is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
The way he.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Communicates kind of that call it the dark matter, the
things maybe we didn't meet on, but what you're really
looking for to everyone in the building in those let's
call it unscripted moments, uh, you know, non scheduled meeting moments.
And I remember thinking, okay that if you can do that,
if you're just says, that's the that's just how you operate,
(13:16):
That's how you're coded.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
You're you're you.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Got a chance in this business. Because you're in this business, right,
you're always trying to bring people together for a common goal,
whether it's whether it's an offensive defense and special teams,
whether it's the offensive line coach and the let's call
it the guys that are you know, designing the skill
plays right, you gotta you gotta this. The protection has
(13:39):
to be symbiotic with the run game. And so there's
all those easier said than done.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
One of the hardest things you're getting. Hey, you want
this wide receiver now to block or run a cheese.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Route because he's getting clouded that day and he wants
the ball. How did you how do you help that
receiver go? You know what, you're clouded, bro, We're not
getting the ball.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
But you're helping this other and that's in every department
of the building.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Games is really really good in that. And then and
then I think the.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Neat thing that you could see with James is too
very organized, can communicate. He evolved to kind of organizing
communicating right the department. But the ability to natural ability
to be able to see the game and evaluate and.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I call it football players. Right. We always say in
our building, all things considered, not.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Just evaluating let's call it athletic mom dad given traits,
but being able to we'd like to saying it all
things considered, right, does that player's capacity and will equal right,
some version of power, usefulness, skill that's going to help
the team.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And a lot of times it's it's you can do
one or the other.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
You can really get the intangent, you can really get
the let's call it the potential, but hey, we're beyond potential.
In the NFL, there's not a lot of development period.
It's like it's almost like we're were It's almost always
say we're selecting, we're with this is special Forces, we're
selecting here or not this isn't. Hey, let's hire you
and develop you there's some you could but oh, by
(15:05):
the way they're keeping score, how many people want to
develop someone when they're keeping score like that? Just that
it sounds good in April Living, it's not.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So. James is really good at that.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
And the communication thing is fascinating to me because I've
been doing this a while and I'm not sure I've
come across the guy who communicates as well.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Even our head coach communicates at an elite level. Sean
will tell you, I'm not sure I want to follow
James after he presents right he is. That's so I
always say it was. It was definitely Sean and him
in our building in terms of if I got up
after James spoke, he would be like, Wow, this guy's
got a d D.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He's abstract. What is he saying?
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Y'all can even see this in this interview, But there
he has that gift to be able to right communicate, connect,
be concise, be clear, uh, be confident, all all the
things I guess he could he could do.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
He could teach communication one on one.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
And you mentioned that, But how key is that for
the job that he's about to do that kind of communication.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
I think that's a very very important part of it, right,
because you're gonna you're gonna communicate a vision. The other
part of the job, as we know is right, you've
got to be a part of helping engineer design processes
to help everyone execute that vision.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
And this is the NFL.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
And then the execution of the vision is how we're
all basically let's call it judge graded, evaluated at the end.
But James will be the two things I think communicate.
The other part is a vision is not just one person.
So I know this he learned with us. We're very collaborative,
like how to we have to.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Collaborate in our building right to make this work.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
I mean it's easy sometimes with Shaw needs our head
coach offensive coordinator, but there's also a defensive coordinator.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's also specialty. There's also athletic performance.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Right, all these things that are going on line, and
when your head coach calls the place too, that takes
that takes another person out of the process and can
be helpful. But I do think the the let's call
it the skill set to sit down and go.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right, how do we really really collaborate for the greater week?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Why was he ready?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Now?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
He said?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
He wouldn't have done it if you hadn't told him, Hey,
it's you.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Just you just you just you get a sense that
I think even though he's young, maybe he even looks
young over the years, it was I always said James
had to be. Now he denies this. I'm like he
was probably that guy that was sixteen that we were
all like, okay, that guy, I mean, how does he
how does he the best receiver on the team and
(17:48):
he's also student government president and also solidatory and you know,
you're kind of rolling your eyes like he was that guy?
Like he Now he denies it and says he wasn't right.
That guy wasn't He could have been. So a point
being is and you could see that even like I said,
when he was the o C at.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
A young age, and it could easily be right. His
dad's the head coach and he's the offense.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Okay, dad gave but I know the at that point
in time, the insistent superintendent of that school district, the
vision was James Gladstone would take over and be head
coach for Jean and that was their vision. That would
have been his. They really picked at that point and
(18:33):
it was not Oh Dad's.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Gonna give some the offense coordinator.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
It was really, we're gonna have dad for a couple
of years, and then James would probably still be at
Clayton High School if they could have kept him today.
So I think what I'm trying to say is take
the age out of it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
The His ability to.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Be able to apply probably the experiences in wisdom from
others is definitely unique because I'm probably one that probably
needed to learn it myself, Like I could have read
the book, listen to y'all. For some reason, I was
too stubborn to apply it, and I needed to do
it my way and fail and then go, okay, they
were right where James is.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
James always had that ability at it.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
So you when you so, there's a there's an intuition that, Okay,
we're young, we're thirty four. We look I think I
told Baselli he he always wore his hat backwards and
he had this athletic where and I was. I remember
telling Tony he's gonna go interview. I don't know if
I should tell him to wear that hat backwards. And
(19:33):
because he's just gonna come across as a little more
older something I said, man him without a hat.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Look, So that what uh? What will you missed most
that had been around you?
Speaker 4 (19:49):
We Uh, we chatted every morning first thing. Uh right,
it was almost a staff meeting. And and from that,
because we had grown together.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We were there was an element of friendship.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
So I'll missed I'll miss those moments, Uh, those chats
where we could chat about everything and like I could vent, right,
I could. I could let him know when I was
having a bad day, when I needed to go put
on the costume, and he would know, right, my my vibe,
my real vibe, and then then see, okay, that's not
(20:25):
the vibe I.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Just chatted with. He had to, he had to get
in the build.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
But I think it's it's those moments where we basically
communicated first thing every morning, whether it was a whether
it was a workday, or whether it was a Saturday
or Sunday, Sunday.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I mean, he may be at the park with his
awesome daughter.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
When you get to know the family, they're special.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
You're just like, Wow, that's his wife's really really his
wife's I don't know if I can say badass on
a what people were doing.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
She's a bad ass. For sure.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Uh final thought I'd be here miss if we didn't
actually have that. Liam Khane, he've been around and he thought,
oh you know what, I know this.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
It's very very hard to do offensive football with Sean
McVeigh right, because he he's at a PhD level. Liam
came in our building probably one of his first NFL jobs.
And here's the right, the ability of someone to communicate
with Sean, maybe even dissent, maybe even add an idea
(21:24):
like you find really quickly, Like.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
If you add an idea that's like one O three
level and he's PhD, he's going to let you know
that that's that's one O three and that's how you
you know, that's how you lose.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
In this league.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Where but you could see Liam, I've seen the and
we've had a lot of them come through. Liam hasn't
started the journey yet. Kevin O'Connell, some of those guys,
Zach Taylor, Matt Leford.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
That's been successful.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
They've been able to get in a meeting with Sean
and talk communicate football, add ideas right and not and
let's go add quality ideas, not ideas where Sean can
go Well, yeah, we did that four years ago.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Here's the reason it doesn't work anymore. But wait a minute,
hadn't thought about that. So the.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Offensive coordinators who've been able to do that with Sean
and our building have gone on to have success, uh
in this league.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
So fantastic, Less, I could talk to you all day.
Thank you for doing this at the owners meeting. I
know it's busy. Thank you very much for doing before
Dan Edwards, let me go.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Is Dan still there? Right?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
He's he retired what to okay three years ago?
Speaker 3 (22:33):
But I had worked for Dan or I'd worked with
Dan with the Times Union and then when I came
back in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Uh, he helped come up with the ozone and it's you.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Know, what's Jacksonville? You Dan? Since no, Alissa Abbott's still there.
We talked about heck Baselly.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
He even told me Todd phil Cox, it seems like
if you started with the Jags and somehow you stayed around,
it's like you.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
You're still there. It's guys, that's a probably a blessing
you in the curse. Probably some roses and thorns, but
that is a pretty neat vibe. It's a good place.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Now we've got to sell you back there you go less,
thank you very much, enjoyed,
Soon.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to the Ozone Podcast with Jaguars senior writer John Osher.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
All Right, welcome into this week's Ozone podcast. And I'm
excited about this one. It's it's a special guest. Uh,
Los Angeles Rams general manager Less Sneid and I Less,
I know, normally don't talk a lot team to team,
but with James Gladstone coming in, I appreciate you taking
the time.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
To do this.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Oh wait, this is where I started. So it's with
James going back.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It's full.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
It's definitely full story, right, and was able to rekindle
even a relationship with Tony Boselli during that sure, even
though I know he had been around doing his radio
thing and things like that.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
But he's always the core of the Jags.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
So I mean, you know what, what was the first
It's a pretty cool story for him, right first? Yeah,
first dra aspect ever, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Earns the yellow jacket.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I mean, anybody if you're picking first in the draft,
I know that so many years later he's gonna.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
First the pride of the Jaguars as well.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
And then and to be a you know, an integral
piece of running the Jags moving forward. And the cool
thing is when I when we were. When I was
talking to Tony about James We'll get to it, you
could just feel his passion. Uh it really just oohs,
I want what's best for the Jags. There was I'm
sure he doesn't have to do this. I mean, maybe
(01:26):
this is better than you know, doing a day job
or something like that. But you could just tell there's
this there's this part of him that, you know what,
I just want the Jags to get back to being
a little bit who they were when they started that.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
A lot of people probably don't even.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Remember because that was a pretty that was a pretty
cool run that coach Coauughlin started there.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
We'll get to James, and I'm excited about talking about him,
But something you just said struck me. How important is
it for an organization that element you're talking about with
Tony knowing what it's supposed to be, about, what the
culture is supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (02:02):
It makes sense, I think, especially in the tech world
now with this whole AI thing and everyone's trying to
get AI more intelligent, and really I think a lot
of times when you read about AI, it's those little nuances, right,
So you think Tony started there in nineteen ninety five
and he's been there for thirty years, So there is
so much nuance that's compounded over time that's just running
(02:25):
probably subliminal in his his breain.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So I think it's better to think about it.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
It's very important, especially if the motives are right, and
you see that probably would would college programs when you
if you can bring back someone who started or been
there before, either as a player, a student, assistant, things
like that.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
If the if you still have passion.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
If the motives are right, there is probably a vibe
there that are not outsider can't bring.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Just couldn't right.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
As hard as they would.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Try, it would take a long time to get the
amount of nuanced let's call it knowledge into that algorithm.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, I got you.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
N ninety seven.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You were with the Jacks.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Uh tell me about your start and your memories of Jacksonville.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I think the my I started, I was a I've
joked the mascot it.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Was, it was Curtis de Vorcee.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Sure, so there was an element of jealousy, uh there
because we're just low level employees.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
That was probably the lowest level in that building. We're
talking about the rubber floors, and so.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Scouting assistant was basically anything anyone needed to do, and
it wasn't scouting.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
And then a little bit that's how James started with myself.
But I can so jealous of Curtis because he was
a mascot and had it they him a car, and
we're we're really poor and just trying to survive. So
when we did play basketball, we would always try to
beat him. But it was all based on right, just
natural human nature and that so it started. I can
(03:59):
remember probably the first scouting report I ever wrote. Okay,
it was probably during a mini camp when there was
no pads going on. So I'd come from the SEC.
I thought I knew it all right, you're in the SEC,
big bad SEC, and I'd only really been a gradual
assistant coach there and said, but and I remember probably
(04:19):
rejecting John yorkobic when you saw John like this guy
it was easy to do, right, Yeah, just like this
guy couldn't even play at all. But so that shows
you how wrong, uh, you know, when you're when you
think you're a young know it all, how wrong you
can be.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Coughlin had a camp without pads.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
You know, I do think there was a moments where
we did go But I mean I was even thinking,
I can't even remember that.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Did we do? Did you do?
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Did we even what were OTA's called?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Could you even go pads? Then?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I don't think you could go pads, but you could
certainly push envelopes, yes, and Tom was able to do that.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
So wait your best or how did that time with
Tom shapey?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I think it.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think I've I've tried to do a one liner
for each probably great coach, great front off, great executive,
whatever owner that you've been with. I just I think
we were laughing. We were talking about painting the walls.
What you do consistency was what I in the in
the and that's everybody go, okay, that is cliche, but
(05:29):
when you actually see someone live it every single day
where you I can remember Pat Die Senior, who was
a coach at Auburn, saying, there's going to be moments
where you're just not going to be.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Fired up to play a game on Saturday.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
It might be a hot, muggy, humid day in South Alabama.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
But if we.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Consistently practice at a certain time during the day during
the summer, all year long, when that opponent shows up
and you really didn't want to play. They may be
more fired up you because they're coming to Auburn. You'll
just by habit be better prepared to handle that humidity
(06:11):
and things like that. So that but Tom was when
I can remember this story and it has nothing to
do with football, but used to work out early in
the morning, and I would try to in a competitive way.
You know what, if Tom gets there early, I'm going
to get there early to work out. But he would
come in and he had his routine Monday through Friday,
(06:31):
whatever it was. But if it was Tuesday and he
started at this time on this machine, he started at
that time on that machine, and he went to the
next one, next one there, and then on Wednesday he
had his and.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
It was that way. That's how he lived.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
And I think in those times, if you think about it,
an expansion team to playing an AFC Championship game probably
year two and that run there over those first especially
three to four years, he had I think consistency living consistency. Yeah,
definitely paid dividends.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So how much truth is there to the Starbucks meeting
with James?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Take me through that.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
There's a lot of truth to the Starbucks meeting with James,
the one that the first time I met Jane or
I said that I didn't even meet James again. I
think everybody knows my son went to play football, and
really it was his dad is who really am impressed me.
So if you think at that time, my son's come
to Saint Louis, he's big into sports. I wish he
(07:31):
was more a Stem kid. Just wasn't a Stem kid.
And in Clayton High School at that point in time,
was it was. It was probably in the where it
was located more culturally art a lot of academic sports
was not its thing. Superintendent, their assistant superintendent said, you
ought to meet this guy, Gene Gladstone. We just hired him.
(07:52):
He had retired from coaching at ViOn.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
He was there.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
We're gonna try to We talked him into doing Clayton football.
I go meet with him and you're just like, you
know what, my son's playing for this guy, I don't.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Care if we win a game. That's who you want.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Developers, but being a GM and things, I was like,
I'm out of the I'm not going to be the
helicopter dad around the program. So I really didn't know
James but I did. I remember going to a first
PTA meeting and it was new school orientation, new student
or probably all kids back to school, and James was
in charge of extracurriculars and Clayton High School had maybe
(08:27):
had four hundred clubs, and I remember this young guy
getting up there and I'm like, I mean the way
he presented, I was like, I remember going home and
tell my wife I want to join a club, Like,
I don't know which club I'm joining, It's probably not
the chess club. I want to join the club. And
it was that impressive. But then and then the little
girls that my wife had met him at the bonfire, just.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
A very impressive human.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Again, I kind of dealt more with Gene his dad,
not necessarily James, and trying not to be the helicopter
I was well aware of.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
James was the OC.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
But when I you know, when we connected, I connected
with Gene his dad. But at that point, yes, the
he had he had reached out as we were going
to leave to go to Los Angeles and said, I'd
love to have a meeting with you. So we had
this Starbucks that was on the corner that I always
frequented a great place to write.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It was the old school Scarbucks where you had couches
and how.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
It used to be before everybody did mobile orders. Went
sat on a cool couch and talked about life. And
he said he might want to do right, you know,
this journey in the NFL, and not necessarily to be
a GM, but probably his his natural coded curiosity of expanding,
(09:39):
like let's call it broadening, expanding his horizons.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
But you still got a chance that a guy can
You saw something in him?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Oh it was.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I knew from again that meeting. I first saw him
present all of those clubs. The time my wife had
got to know him, she's very, very student, going okay,
this this is special, this is unique, this is different.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
This is not positive.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
And then and then and then also seeing how he
handled probably being OC with his dad, because a lot
of times that could be you could see kids taking.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Advantage of that role. Sure, and you could from afar.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Tell how he he really navigated, like I'm gonna try
to be the best offensive coordinator I can be. I'm
gonna try to help kids right, evolve, develop, get closer
to being a young adult. Not necessarily you know what,
I'm the OC. My dad's the head coach. So now
I'm gonna be right this, I'm gonna be rate people,
I'm gonna be cocky whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You can see how he navigated that far.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
So what it was an e because I, like I
told him, the only thing I need you to do
is dominate this if you come to LA. Number one
is I don't want you to get in this to
try to be a coach, Like I don't want you
to come working scouting for a couple of years and
then you go coach Like now we've wasted each other's time.
And he promised me that wasn't what he want wanted
to do. I said, okay, I said, we're going to LA.
(11:02):
I've never relocated. I've never been in a part of a relocation.
This is going to be hectic. All I need you
really to do is make sure I have green tea
from Starbucks, ice green tea when I needed And he dominated,
like if anybody can dominate it, like I had so much.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I had green tea at all times.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
The amount of green tea we probably emptied in the
scene was probably But what's interesting about James is from
that moment he had this sixth sense to really, really journal,
maybe what we needed, not just myself, but maybe the department.
(11:41):
And I always got you should have been a QB.
And maybe he couldn't pass because he was a receiver,
but he definitely could anticipate. He could read coverages, this
is where the balls should go now, and he anticipated,
so he anticipated getting green teas for myself, but then
from their point forward, he anticipated all the way up
to running basically our department, our draft.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And how.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
What was maybe the first step where beyond the green tea,
the first assignment where he went, Okay, this guy is
going to be I.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Think one thing is is let's call it navigating, let's
call it the dynamics of the people in the building.
And and and I remember I brought up the OC
thing for a reason. There's a lot of times people
will get let's call it if it's your chief of
staff or your assistant, and there's there're gonna be your
(12:36):
voice a lot of times across the building when you're
not even there and you don't even know. And there's
some that that maybe used that in a in a
bullying way. And I remember everyone in the building coming
to me and going that James is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
The way he.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Communicates kind of that call it the dark matter, the
things maybe we didn't meet on, but what you're really
looking for to everyone in the building in those let's
call it unscripted moments, uh, you know, non scheduled meeting moments.
And I remember thinking, okay that if you can do that,
if you're just says, that's the that's just how you operate,
(13:16):
That's how you're coded.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
You're you're you.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Got a chance in this business. Because you're in this business, right,
you're always trying to bring people together for a common goal,
whether it's whether it's an offensive defense and special teams,
whether it's the offensive line coach and the let's call
it the guys that are you know, designing the skill
plays right, you gotta you gotta this. The protection has
(13:39):
to be symbiotic with the run game. And so there's
all those easier said than done.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
One of the hardest things you're getting. Hey, you want
this wide receiver now to block or run a cheese.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Route because he's getting clouded that day and he wants
the ball. How did you how do you help that
receiver go? You know what, you're clouded, bro, We're not
getting the ball.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
But you're helping this other and that's in every department
of the building.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Games is really really good in that. And then and
then I think the.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Neat thing that you could see with James is too
very organized, can communicate. He evolved to kind of organizing
communicating right the department. But the ability to natural ability
to be able to see the game and evaluate and.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I call it football players. Right. We always say in
our building, all things considered, not.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Just evaluating let's call it athletic mom dad given traits,
but being able to we'd like to saying it all
things considered, right, does that player's capacity and will equal right,
some version of power, usefulness, skill that's going to help
the team.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And a lot of times it's it's you can do
one or the other.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
You can really get the intangent, you can really get
the let's call it the potential, but hey, we're beyond potential.
In the NFL, there's not a lot of development period.
It's like it's almost like we're were It's almost always
say we're selecting, we're with this is special Forces, we're
selecting here or not this isn't. Hey, let's hire you
and develop you there's some you could but oh, by
(15:05):
the way they're keeping score, how many people want to
develop someone when they're keeping score like that? Just that
it sounds good in April Living, it's not.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So. James is really good at that.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
And the communication thing is fascinating to me because I've
been doing this a while and I'm not sure I've
come across the guy who communicates as well.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Even our head coach communicates at an elite level. Sean
will tell you, I'm not sure I want to follow
James after he presents right he is. That's so I
always say it was. It was definitely Sean and him
in our building in terms of if I got up
after James spoke, he would be like, Wow, this guy's
got a d D.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He's abstract. What is he saying?
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Y'all can even see this in this interview, But there
he has that gift to be able to right communicate, connect,
be concise, be clear, uh, be confident, all all the
things I guess he could he could do.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
He could teach communication one on one.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
And you mentioned that, But how key is that for
the job that he's about to do that kind of communication.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
I think that's a very very important part of it, right,
because you're gonna you're gonna communicate a vision. The other
part of the job, as we know is right, you've
got to be a part of helping engineer design processes
to help everyone execute that vision.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
And this is the NFL.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
And then the execution of the vision is how we're
all basically let's call it judge graded, evaluated at the end.
But James will be the two things I think communicate.
The other part is a vision is not just one person.
So I know this he learned with us. We're very collaborative,
like how to we have to.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Collaborate in our building right to make this work.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
I mean it's easy sometimes with Shaw needs our head
coach offensive coordinator, but there's also a defensive coordinator.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's also specialty. There's also athletic performance.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Right, all these things that are going on line, and
when your head coach calls the place too, that takes
that takes another person out of the process and can
be helpful. But I do think the the let's call
it the skill set to sit down and go.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right, how do we really really collaborate for the greater week?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Why was he ready?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Now?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
He said?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
He wouldn't have done it if you hadn't told him, Hey,
it's you.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Just you just you just you get a sense that
I think even though he's young, maybe he even looks
young over the years, it was I always said James
had to be. Now he denies this. I'm like he
was probably that guy that was sixteen that we were
all like, okay, that guy, I mean, how does he
how does he the best receiver on the team and
(17:48):
he's also student government president and also solidatory and you know,
you're kind of rolling your eyes like he was that guy?
Like he Now he denies it and says he wasn't right.
That guy wasn't He could have been. So a point
being is and you could see that even like I said,
when he was the o C at.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
A young age, and it could easily be right. His
dad's the head coach and he's the offense.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Okay, dad gave but I know the at that point
in time, the insistent superintendent of that school district, the
vision was James Gladstone would take over and be head
coach for Jean and that was their vision. That would
have been his. They really picked at that point and
(18:33):
it was not Oh Dad's.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Gonna give some the offense coordinator.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
It was really, we're gonna have dad for a couple
of years, and then James would probably still be at
Clayton High School if they could have kept him today.
So I think what I'm trying to say is take
the age out of it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
The His ability to.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Be able to apply probably the experiences in wisdom from
others is definitely unique because I'm probably one that probably
needed to learn it myself, Like I could have read
the book, listen to y'all. For some reason, I was
too stubborn to apply it, and I needed to do
it my way and fail and then go, okay, they
were right where James is.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
James always had that ability at it.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
So you when you so, there's a there's an intuition that, Okay,
we're young, we're thirty four. We look I think I
told Baselli he he always wore his hat backwards and
he had this athletic where and I was. I remember
telling Tony he's gonna go interview. I don't know if
I should tell him to wear that hat backwards. And
(19:33):
because he's just gonna come across as a little more
older something I said, man him without a hat.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Look, So that what uh? What will you missed most
that had been around you?
Speaker 4 (19:49):
We Uh, we chatted every morning first thing. Uh right,
it was almost a staff meeting. And and from that,
because we had grown together.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We were there was an element of friendship.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
So I'll missed I'll miss those moments, Uh, those chats
where we could chat about everything and like I could vent, right,
I could. I could let him know when I was
having a bad day, when I needed to go put
on the costume, and he would know, right, my my vibe,
my real vibe, and then then see, okay, that's not
(20:25):
the vibe I.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Just chatted with. He had to, he had to get
in the build.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
But I think it's it's those moments where we basically
communicated first thing every morning, whether it was a whether
it was a workday, or whether it was a Saturday
or Sunday, Sunday.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I mean, he may be at the park with his
awesome daughter.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
When you get to know the family, they're special.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
You're just like, Wow, that's his wife's really really his
wife's I don't know if I can say badass on
a what people were doing.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
She's a bad ass. For sure.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Uh final thought I'd be here miss if we didn't
actually have that. Liam Khane, he've been around and he thought,
oh you know what, I know this.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
It's very very hard to do offensive football with Sean
McVeigh right, because he he's at a PhD level. Liam
came in our building probably one of his first NFL jobs.
And here's the right, the ability of someone to communicate
with Sean, maybe even dissent, maybe even add an idea
(21:24):
like you find really quickly, Like.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
If you add an idea that's like one O three
level and he's PhD, he's going to let you know
that that's that's one O three and that's how you
you know, that's how you lose.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
In this league.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Where but you could see Liam, I've seen the and
we've had a lot of them come through. Liam hasn't
started the journey yet. Kevin O'Connell, some of those guys,
Zach Taylor, Matt Leford.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
That's been successful.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
They've been able to get in a meeting with Sean
and talk communicate football, add ideas right and not and
let's go add quality ideas, not ideas where Sean can
go Well, yeah, we did that four years ago.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Here's the reason it doesn't work anymore. But wait a minute,
hadn't thought about that. So the.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Offensive coordinators who've been able to do that with Sean
and our building have gone on to have success, uh
in this league.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
So fantastic, Less, I could talk to you all day.
Thank you for doing this at the owners meeting. I
know it's busy. Thank you very much for doing before
Dan Edwards, let me go.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Is Dan still there? Right?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
He's he retired what to okay three years ago?
Speaker 3 (22:33):
But I had worked for Dan or I'd worked with
Dan with the Times Union and then when I came
back in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Uh, he helped come up with the ozone and it's you.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Know, what's Jacksonville? You Dan? Since no, Alissa Abbott's still there.
We talked about heck Baselly.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
He even told me Todd phil Cox, it seems like
if you started with the Jags and somehow you stayed around,
it's like you.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
You're still there. It's guys, that's a probably a blessing
you in the curse. Probably some roses and thorns, but
that is a pretty neat vibe. It's a good place.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Now we've got to sell you back there you go less,
thank you very much, enjoyed,
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