March 30, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of "Weekend Warriors," Anish and Tom dive into the defensive line prospects of the 2025 NFL Draft class. They’re joined by special guest Al Wallace, former Panther defensive lineman, who shares his insights on what it takes to succeed as an Defensive lineman in the NFL. Tune in as they discuss the top talents in this year’s draft, analyze their potential impact on the Panthers, and hear Al’s expert opinions on the future stars of the league.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ladies and Gentlemen. The Weekend Close to the episode Cat
Flit Feeling Touchdown Carolina Weekend Warriors Draft Special. The Weekend
Warriors Draft Special is brought to you by bud Light.
(00:21):
No easier way to enjoy your Sunday. Bud Light is
the official beer of the NFL and a proud partner
of the Carolina Panthers. An Ashrop, Tom Lougan Bill episode
three of our Draft Countdown. We're gonna talk to Al
Wallace in a little bit, but this episode centers around
the defensive line, and obviously you start with Derek Brown
(00:42):
coming back. That's just a huge piece that you're gonna add.
Had he been a free agent, he would have been
the top free agent on the market. Losing him for
pretty much the entire season, there was a trickle down effect.
There was no one to one replacement. So you start
building this thing up by saying, all right, you're getting
an all Pro caliber player back to anchor your defensive
(01:06):
front up, and then you start to build around that.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, yeah, and I think you know, in the case
of the Carolina Panthers, it's sheer numbers, right, And you know,
you just talked about having somebody like Derek Brown back
and you build around it. But when you lose a
Derek Brown and there's such a significant gap between the
player that's now replacing that player, and then you don't
have the competitive depth around it. It leads to why
(01:31):
the Panthers were in the position that they were in defensively.
So Derek Brown, I think is a kingpin piece. Fortunately,
the draft is fairly strong along the defensive front in
terms of sheer numbers. I think that if if there's
an area because I know you know, wide receiver is
(01:52):
a position of need, but if there's an area that
determines the difference between good and great, it's not wide
reas right, it's not safety, it's offensive line and defensive line.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And you think of how the Panthers finished last year.
Offense late in the season was not the problem. Defensively,
injuries added up, they didn't have the depth, and you know, frankly,
it was historically bad. So as we'll dive into some
of these draft prospects. Before we do that, I want
you to listen to what general manager Dan Morgan had
to say and what he's looking for in an interior
(02:28):
defensive lineman.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, interior d line Obviously, you have to have the height,
you have to have the length, and then you got
to be violent at the point of attack, and you've
got to have the strength, you know, to stack guys up.
We like to call it play gap and a half
even two gap, So we want our guys to be strong, physical,
and I obviously have that prototype measurables the height and
(02:51):
length as well.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Strong and violent at the point of attack. And this
leads me to believe Luke's pick can get number eight
in the first round. If a guy like Mason Graham
is able to fall to you, is that one where
you say you can't trade down, you can't pass this
guy up. If he's there at eight, is he a
(03:13):
must take type of player? I feel like he.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Might be the only player that would prevent you from
trading down and getting picks. He is, in my opinion
on tape, is the most unblockable defensive tackle prospect that
I had seen since Indamicansu came out at Nebraska College.
Tape I'm talking about, you can't. I don't know how
(03:38):
you're supposed to prepare for him. And if you're looking
at it from a three to four perspective and you're
gonna have you know. Is he a true zero, Is
he a true two gapper? No? But he is so
disruptive that he he blows up the plan Like I mean,
it's like you throw a grenade in the offensive front
of whoever you're playing because they don't have an ant.
(04:00):
And I think what I love about him is he
is a effort based player that runs on ninety three
octane all the time and has talent. There's a lot
of guys that run on ninety three octane, but they
have to because they're not as good as somebody else.
They're not as naturally gifted. That's not the case with
(04:20):
this dude.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
A couple of the guys that want to hit you
on on the interior of the d line. One is
Kenneth Grant, Mason Graham's teammate at Michigan. And then you know,
Walter Nolan's the guy who's been talked about a lot too,
was at A and M now coming out of Ole miss.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Former number one overall player coming out of high school.
And listen when you turn on the tape, that guy's
a problem. Like he's a handful. I'd be curious to
know from an investigation standpoint, of you know, you start
to look into all of these guys and you start
to ask about their habits and how they conduct themselves
and how they how they handle being who they are are.
(05:00):
I'd be curious to know what the feedback would have
been or is on a Walter Nolan guy, because the
one thing I'll say about him in my experience with
him going back to high school is oftentimes when you
get the highest profile of player, they're the most entitled player.
They're also the player that if they go to a
camp or combine, they just want to show up and
be seen. They don't want to actually work out. To
(05:22):
that kid's credit, every time there was a camp somewhere,
he showed up and he wanted to prove he was
the best guy there. And if he still has that mentality,
I think he's a really nice find.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Let's hit the edge position because that is a loaded
position in this year's draft, and you might be able
to get impact player not just on Day one, but
potentially Day two, day three as well. The guy whose
name since the college football Playoff has vaulted up up
up toward the top of the draft, maybe even a
potential number one overall. Though with the Browns, you know,
(05:58):
resigning Miles Garrett have the number one pick. Yeah, maybe
he slips into the three to five range. We'll see.
But Abdul Carter and Penn State the low hanging fruit cop.
And I've said this before, it's Michael Parson's school, same number, number,
the same position, same style. Yeah, is he Michael Parsons
two point zero?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I think he can be. You know, it's interesting. I
was on the sideline for both Penn State's playoff games
against Boise State and a SMU, and I was actually
struck by how unimposing he is physically. He's not very big,
he's not very tall, and then you see him move
(06:39):
and you're going, where'd he go? Yeah, Like it's like
a blur on the field. And I think in player evaluation,
you always have like that measurable standard that you want right,
and you have critical factors and boxes you want to
check and you say, we're not deviating from these, and
then production comes in to play and you're gonna have
(07:01):
to make a decision do we care because the production
is so good? Right? And I think with him now,
are there questions about what happens with him if somebody
lines up puts him in a phone booth and runs
right down his throat, which is what the league's turning
into you.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
And to make that case, the NFL is headed that way,
and Philly just won a Super Bowl playing that.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Way, and it's headed that way because that's been the
adaptation for offenses to deal with all of the speed
now on defense that they haven't been able to handle.
So it's it's interesting. Football just goes in cycles and
it comes back around. But I think with abdua card
and I'll say this and talking with Tom Allen, who's
now the defensive coordinator, Clinton was a defensive coordinator there
last year, former Indiana head former Indiana head coach and
(07:47):
wonderful man, and he was talking to us about how
much Abdul Carter wanted to play along the front as
opposed to standing up and playing off the ball. She
had his first couple of years, really the better part
of all three years. And so he actually came to
the coaching staff at Penn State is that I want
(08:10):
to play in this position because I've got to be
able to prove I can play with my hand on
the ground. Everybody knows I can stand up and I
can run around. I thought that was got a little
bit of an interesting nugget.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Dan Morgan at the Combine chiming in on what he's
looking for in an NFL edge rusher edge.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know, you got to be explosive, you got to
be athletic, you got to be explosive, you got to
be able to bend and get off the ball. And
you know, those are the type of athletes that win,
and they win consistently in this league. So that's what
we'll be focusing on.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Dan wants explosive and first step explosiveness.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
There's a couple other guys that's a deep edge rusher class.
Mike Green at Marshall, small school guy. But oftentimes, again
we've talked about this during the season on the podcast,
we get it's so caught up in Measurables Combine Pro day,
we lose sight of the tape, we lose sight of
the production. You know, Mike Green produced seventeen sacks at Marshall,
(09:09):
and again you want to say, competition is not what
it would be in the SEC or a power conference.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Totally fair, and he started at Virginia Tech. He's a
Power five talent. Yeah, I listen, I think that you
have to always go back to the tape. And we
can measure arm length and hand size, and we can
do l drills, and we can do short shuttles, and
all of those are great pieces of the puzzle to
(09:36):
the player. But you can't duplicate playing the game in
shirts and shorts in the sport of football. And I
think that his You know, oftentimes you'll see defensive line coaches,
particularly off of the edge, and they want to see
how far upfield can a player get in one step
and how quickly can he do it right, and that
(09:58):
you start to measure that stuff, and you start to
slow down the tape and you're going, like, this guy's
three yards up the field and he hasn't taken his
second step.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You know, those types of things, one small step versus
one giant lea.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, exactly, And and I think that that perfectly describes
not only him, but you know, his former teammate is
a guy at Virginia Tech and Antonine Power Island. Just
the edge explosiveness, Josiah Stewart, edge explosiveness they all have.
(10:29):
And the one guy who may be as talented as
all of those guys but isn't as big is Donovan
Ezeraku at BC, but he also might be the smartest,
headiest football player of all of the class at that position.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I remember, and this is going back now, when I
was at Syracuse, they had an edge rusher who was
coming into the NFL, and everybody said, yeah, we know
the get off is maybe pantheon level, but he's too small.
He's too small. He's only about two fifties, barely six
'y three. Dwight Freenie is now in the Hall of Fame.
(11:07):
H turned out turned out okay well.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And I think the interesting thing is sometimes when you
do that, there there's an in between. There's a labeled
too small. Then there's the guy where you're like, he's
not too short, but he certainly isn't the length that
we want. And then there's the length guy everybody's gonna
sign off on.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Sometimes the too small guy it becomes the guy that's
the six to seven offensive tackle can't block because he
can't bend. He can't and if he does bend, he's
gonna bend at the waist and not at the knee,
and he's ohost.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
And tape don't lie.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
No.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I watched a game where Dwight Freenie in college sacked
Michael Vick four times, four times, and I bet he was.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
About four feet off the ground when he was bending
and turning that edge. That's how Teddy Bruski was coming
out of Arizona at five foot eleven.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Then there's the other prospect we have every the immensely talented,
he's got all the skills, you're ninety three octane guy. However,
there have been reports about James Pearce at Tennessee, and
this was a guy, you know who now has to
deal with some character issues. I go back to the
(12:17):
beginning of the season. He was talked about at one
point as one to one first overall, like that's the
type of talent we're talking about, and now he's somebody
who may not even get drafted on Day one, maybe
a second round guy. So interesting test case because there's
examples on both sides where you know, you get a
guy who coming out of college has some character issues
(12:38):
and then all of a sudden they get to the
NFL you find out they're overblown, or a guy like
Warren Sapp. Remember Warren Sapp in any draft would have
been the first guy taken easily right, But there were
some off field things with Warren Sapp coming out of Miami.
He fell turns into a Hall of Fame player. So
you've seen both sides of the coin. How do you
evaluate a James Pierce?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So I'm gonna use who you just use with Warren
Sapp as example. So you'd have to ask if I
asked Warren anybody about Warren Sapp and I asked this question,
if you took football away from him, would he go
jump off a bridge? And I guarantee you everybody around
Warren Sap at that time that scouts and gms and
coaches talked to would have said absolutely, because he loved
(13:22):
football that much. What scouts and GMS and coaches in
this draft need to find out about James Pears's does
he love football? Because his production went way down? I
mean he's six five two and forty three pounds or
around of four to four to seven that that's not
standing on every street corner. But we're a nitpicking season, right,
and in nitpicking season, you are literally trying to uncover
(13:45):
every red flag to avoid making a whatever fifty sixty
million dollar decision and have it blow up in your face.
So you better figure out if it's something you can
deal with, if it's something that's going to destroy your
locker room, if it's maybe just a maturity. All of
those things are what are are what's called weighing risk.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
General manager Dan Morgan on what everything boils down to.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
I really think everything boils down to does a guy
love the game of football? And I think, you know,
through the interview process, that's what you try to figure out,
and does that match up with the tape? You know,
if I see a guy out there and he's kind
of dogging into the ball every other play like that
doesn't really show me you love football. So you know,
we look for guys that you know, are competitors, they
(14:34):
want to compete at every turn. They love the game,
they love the process, and this is just all part
of the evaluation process that will continue to you know,
keep chipping away out through the spring.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Well, there you have it, right, does the guy love football?
And I think the problem with when you ask that
question is football is really fun?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Right? I mean it is.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It is fun. It's fun to play it, It's always
been fun to play it. But to be really, really good,
potentially great, potentially elite, you you literally have to commit
yourself to it in every way, shape or form, And
if you're not willing to do that, then you're gonna
(15:17):
limit what your ceiling is and how far you will
go in this sport. So and that's what differentiates the
super talented guy and somebody else who's also equally talented.
And one guy makes it, one guy doesn't. And it
often comes down to exactly what Dan Morgan just said.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
All right, before we get to Al Wallace, a couple
of guys, not Day one guys that I want to
hit on. You mentioned Azeraku a little bit, but a
guy that our audience may be familiar with, the Rucker
kid from North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yes, came in Rucker, the Butcher. The Butcher great hands,
I think, the explosive hands, the ability to counter. He
always has a plan. I think that's the other thing too.
When you look at some of these guys, they come
off the ball, they got a plan. What if Plan
A doesn't work? And a lot of that comes down
to coaching too, because you got to coach what's planing
be gonna be?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
What plan is he gonna be?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
His nickname is the Butcher because his hands are so
good and he's always got a plan for ustage. So
whether it's top rip arm under, whether it's uh even
actually has a pretty good bull rush too. I had
a chance to see him a couple of times this year,
but he was hurt, and I think, you know, he
he played a lot of football and he was probably
on pace to have a monster year on defense because
(16:30):
Carolina actually on defense this year had some guys that
were pretty good. And then he then he got hurt
and uh but I think he's a really well rounded guy.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And then you may have seen these guys in the
college football playoff Ohio State with a couple of intriguing
prospects at edge, including Jack Sawyer. Love him who I
know you saw out of high school. You had him
what number one or number two? Came out high school? Yeah,
he was number one. I want to say that was
the COVID year because we didn't have the under Armoor
All in America game and so he didn't play in
(17:02):
the game. And then he enrolled early uh.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
At at at Ohio State actually didn't play his senior
year if you remember that, and just got on campus.
But I'll tell you the thing about him, another high
effort guy, but he wasn't an instant splash guy, which
to me is a positive because it tells me that
he still has a high ceiling for development, that he's
(17:27):
not tapped out, played his best football against the best
teams on their schedule, and he played his best football
this past year, which is his last year of eligibility.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I think that's important. And then they got the other guy, JT.
I hope I don't butcher his last name Twoey molowaw.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yep, yeah, well done.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah again, listen, I've done enough BYU Hawaii Utah game
shot him out right, Yeah, JT.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well you can just call JTT for sure. That's what
everybody else calls him. Well, you know, and they got three.
They got those two guys, and they got Tyler Williams
on the inside. You know, I mean he'd be more
in the conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
That's a tool time nickname coming it absolutely it is.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But yeah, I mean a great player again, not very big,
but you know, it's interesting for people who haven't seen him,
Like when you see Joey Bosa compared to Nick Bosa,
there's a distinct difference in size. Yeah, and you don't
realize it until you're close to him, and so I
think that JTT is a little bit more like Nick
(18:27):
in terms of his stature. But again, good defense, it's
a good I think there's good value rounds four through
seven in the defensive front.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. And then one final guy South Carolina, Kyle Knnard. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I think you know. To me, his size is really
really impressive because when you have that type of size
and if you're gonna let's just say you're gonna be
in the three four, you can line up at the
five and you can hold up at the point of attack,
but you could probably line up at zero two. And
I think that's also what makes Zeke Biggers at Georgia
Tech a very interest. He is massive thirty five inch arms, Wow,
(19:05):
I mean and that stuff like that. When you got
thirty five inch arms, you can visibly see that on
film immediately, right, And so he's another guy where you
start to add bolk and size and length. Now it
makes you a hot commodity.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
If you're wondering why didn't we we didn't get to
Jalen Walker and mikel Williams from Georgia, we will when
we talk linebackers with Luke Keighley. We're gonna get into
those guys, because in Walker's case, he's not just an
edge rusher. He can fit the run. And mikel Williams
there's a little bit of Frankie louvo in there where
(19:40):
you can move him around and it becomes an interesting
chess piece. So we'll get into that when we talk linebackers.
We're gonna have Luke Keigley on that show. But we
do have a special guest coming your way. We do
want to remind you the weekend Warriors Draft Special is
brought to you by bud Light. No easier way to
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(20:05):
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Entrance must be twenty one years or older to participate
and be eligible. All right, let's bring in a guy
(20:50):
who played the position and played for the Panthers on
their Super Bowl team back in two thousand and three.
Al Wallace. I'll just to go back to three and
we talk about the trenches and the defensive line that
was the strength of that two thousand and three team.
You Pep Jenkins Rucker. When you have those kind of
(21:12):
pieces up front, what does it allow everyone else to do?
Speaker 4 (21:15):
It allows everybody on the back end to just play naturally,
just flow to the ball when you're able to take
up those gaps, those run fits, and really eat up
that line of scrimmage. You have guys like Dan Morgan,
Will Weatherspoon.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
You know, you.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Look at all the guys on the back end, they're
just able to play naturally, play with instinct and not
think about it. And I think when you think about
the game of football, the less you can think, as
crazy as that sound, the more you can just feed
off your gut and go and attack and play downhill.
You have some success, and we certainly have that.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
You guys had it on the inside and on the edge,
and in this particular draft, trying to figure out where
to address both needs and where to do it first,
in your opinion, you look at the Panthers defensively up front.
Is it on the edge, is it in the middle,
is it a combination?
Speaker 4 (22:05):
What needs to be addressed first? I think you have
to start the closer you are to the ball. The
game has changed a lot. Edge rushers I think are
essential to the game. But when I look at Chris Jones,
when I look at Jalen Carter for the Philadelphia Eagles,
I know Josh Wett had an incredible Super Bowl, but
that push from the interior of the defensive line is essential.
(22:26):
And on that team that Anisha's talking about that we had.
We had Chris Jenkins, right, he was our battering ram.
But then you look at Brinson Buckner, you look at
Kendall moorehead, some of those guys that were coming off
the bench, Shane Burton. That were the three techniques, the
penetrators that did a lot of the damage that shortened
the corner for Rucker and Pepper's and myself to really
get home. And I think when you build a defensive line,
(22:47):
you have Derek Brown. Now where's that three technique? And
I feel like the Panthers have been missing that maybe
since KK Short was on this football team.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, and you mentioned again that's what the Panthers doing
now three to four defense with Adria. So in that
three four scheme, what is that ideal three technique in
the middle, if Derek Brown and A'shawn Robinson are going
to be you know, the end is in the three four,
what does that ideal three technique look like? I think he's.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Maybe around a three hundred pounder, longer rangier, not your
six two sixty three wider body that's just a space
eater that's two gapping holding up. I think a guy
that can really get in that track stance, kind of
put that backfoot back and get home right. Disruptiveness in
the backfield. Not a guy who's going to control the
guard or the tackle if you're playing out in a
(23:36):
five technique, but a guy who's really just going to
be in the backfield, change the line of scrimmage and
That's what defensive line coaches talk about all the time.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Right. It is not.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
About holding that point of attack. It's how much chaos
can you create by just penetrating and knocking guys around
in the backfield.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
When you look at from a player evaluation standpoint. We
can measure arms, we can measure hands, we can do height, weight,
three coneld, all of it. But what are some traits
in your opinion when it comes to the defensive front.
Seven let's just focus on the front that aren't coachable
that you think are critical for guys to have success
at this level.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I think there are guys that you look for as
a defensive lineman and I'm just looking at my own
hands and fingers. It's about that pop, right, It's about
that pop with the hands, hands, violent hands at the
defensive end or interior tackle position, great hips, leverage, understanding
how to position your body. Most of the times at
defensive end, your outwedge or outweighed edge. Guys are outweighed.
(24:34):
But can you roll those hips? Can you fire right?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Hips? Hands? Feet?
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Is what we were talking. How did you come off
the line of scrimmage? Those things I think are essential
when you're evaluating defensive players, defensive linemen, how do they
come off the line of scrimmage? Is their explosion? Are
they playing through their hips? And are they violent with
the hands? Unfortunately, for defensive guys on that defensive line,
those fingers are gonna pop out, They're gonna be broken.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I've had more ltiple things.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
But if you're a violent guy with playing with your hands,
you can control those offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Alan, you know, you're plugged in not just to the NFL,
but the college scene as well. So when you're projecting
these guys from college to the NFL, and you talk
about hands, and we get into the measurables, right, arm length,
hand size, things like that, height, weight, how do you
weigh that versus actual production at the college level.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Yeah, I think all those things are great, and I'm
a huge fan of the Combine. I watch them every year.
I compare my stats from way back in nineteen ninety seven, Right,
how fast.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Was at the Underware Olympics? Right?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Right?
Speaker 4 (25:39):
But at the end of the day, what you see
at the Combine on those field that those measurables, you
better be able to match them up and turn on
the film. They better be able to translate to production
on the field. I think so often everyone gets caught
up in those measurables and they forget to look at
the film. I want a guy who produces. If it's
a hunter, if you're a pass rusher, you better show
(26:00):
me a pass restaurant tape. In college, you're not gonna
get to the NFL and somehow develop into a double
digit sack guy. So if you're a four or five
sack career guy out of three years in college, could
you get ten sacks? You can, But I want a
guy who's gonna go get the quarterback and he's proven
that from high school college and it's gonna move on
to the NFL.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
You touched on something there, because football is the only
sport that cannot be duplicated in an offseason. Meaning if
I'm playing basketball in the winter and I'm playing basketball
in the summer, it's the same game. Tennis, golf, baseball,
all of it. But football, when you go into an
off season, you're in shirts and shorts, and that's not
the same game, right. And we look at the combine
or a pro day, and let's just say, as an
(26:42):
NFL scout or a GM or as a coach, they're
watching guys on tape for two to three years and
then they allow a four hour window on one day
to completely alter what they thought about a player. Are
you of the belief that if you do that, you're
gonna be prone to make more mistakes when you're paying
(27:03):
too much attention to a pro day or a combine scenario.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, I believe so. Because the physicality of the game,
the desire to go and make a tackle, all these
things that play a role in whether you're going to
be a good football player or not.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
None of that matters.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Right when I train for the combine or my pro day,
it was about those specific drills and can I polish
those up? Can I make those look really really good.
We know a bunch of guys who've been just combined studs,
and then you get to the NFL and it just
doesn't show up because those drills, right taking on a double,
turning the edge, getting to the quarterback, and finishing, they
(27:40):
don't translate to a forty or a cone drill or shuttle.
It just doesn't happen that way. So football is the
best predictor of football. You gotta play the game what
you see on film. A guy's desire, attitude, and really
energy towards the game is what's going to show up
when you get them in your mini camp, when you
put the pads on in training camp and art playing football.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So what you're saying is the Cones don't hit real hard.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
They don't hit all those backs, they don't move the bags,
don't hit back in at the Combine, all right, you
cover the Charlotte forty nine ers if you know this draft,
but we hear deep for edge rushers, deep for defensive lineman.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
You get into the later rounds when you're looking at
a small school guy for example, you know what are
attributes you're looking from a small school guy? When I
guess the you know, disclaimer is okay, he didn't play
the same schedule that maybe a Georgia or in Alabama played.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
I think are the same things we've talked about guys.
It's a football player. I know a guy that I
was a huge fan of that went to Charlotte that
moved on.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
I can't remember what Dimitrius Knight is. He was an
incredible guy, started at Georgia Tech. This is a guy
they highlighted at the Combine. Has two kids.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Now.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
He was a father at Charlotte, But this guy played
with his hair on fire. And I think at any level,
you put a football player on the field that has
a nose for the ball, that plays with a certain
level of intensity, you can try to say, well, it's
not the SEC, it's just the American Athletic Conference. But
a football player who gets to the ball, plays with violence,
who is cerebral's gonna go into a film room and
(29:15):
learn how to get better. Not from a physical standpoint,
but how can I put myself in the best position
to make a plays. Are the types of football players
that I'm looking at. We've seen a bunch of small
school guys find it in the NFL because that light
has always been on. They just needed a better opportunity.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Now, going back to the combine for one moment, because
I feel like one big topic of conversation that came
out of this year's combine was arm length. It seemed
to be the one thing that everybody seemed to be talking.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's the new hand size for quarterbacks, right.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And so it Will Campbell the offensive tackle LSU. Most notably,
everybody was discussing that a guy like Donovan Azeraku out
of Boston college some other guys from your perspective, tell
people why arm length is so important.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
I think arm length for a guy like myself, a
defense is to be able to keep those three hundred
pounders off your body. If one of those guys, if
an offensive lineman get into my body, it's over. I
played in the NFL two hundred and seventy two hundred
and seventy five pounds three hundred and thirty pound offensive
lineman leverage strength wise, it was pretty strong, but they
get into your body, it's over. So when you talk
(30:18):
about arm land from a defensive end standpoint, it's about
locking a guy out, keeping them off of your body,
shed release, making a tackle. Now I think it's less
important in today's game because edge rushers guys don't look
quite like me, and the game is different. It's about penetration.
We talked about that earlier. Can I get in the backfield?
I'm not staying on the block. Nobody's asking me to
(30:40):
be stout at the point of attack. I think some
of those are kind of antiquated thoughts. When you feel
like a defensive end or an edge rusher needs to
set the edge, No, just go and blow something up.
So I'm not staying there. I don't need the arm length.
Can I get after it? That's what's more.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
But to that point, I think we're starting to see
the NFL chaine a little bit right, where for years
everyone's going faster and smaller on defense. So now you
watch what the Eagles did right, Power running attack fueled
their run all the way to a championship. You're seeing
it with the ravens Lamar Jackson, Derrick Henry. You know
they got Ricard back there, and then their tight ends
(31:16):
double tight end sets all the time. So are we
now in this era where there is a philosophical shift
offensively to take advantage of those smaller edge rushers, smaller linebackers,
the hybrid safety linebacker type.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Absolutely take the air out of them. If those guys
are going to run around blocks, let's play to it.
Let's run powers right at those edge rushers who are
not going to be stout at the point like.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You said it, holding up at the point of attack.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, and now you put them in a phone booth
and they can't hold up.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
I came out of University of Maryland two hundred and
fifty five pounds defensive end. I was a tweiner. That
word doesn't exist anymore. It's not defensive end anymore. It's
called edge because those are those bodies can range from
six to five anywhere down to six to two. So
now offensive coordinators are evolving. Hey, we can't we can't
run up around them, so let's just run at them.
(32:08):
Let's push them around. Let's force them to run around
these big offensive linemen and these twelve personnels, these two
tight end sets. And now make those gaps just wide,
and you see Saquon, you see Josh Jacobs just barreling
through these things on powers or outside zones. And the
game is evolving, and you'll start seeing defensive ends coming
to the league. They'll be bigger, they'll be stronger, and
(32:29):
it's just the evolution of the game. Had I been
at an edge in today's game, would have been perfect.
But back in nineteen ninety seven, I went undrafted. I
was a tweinter, two hundred and fifty five pounds in
when Reggie White and those types of guys were playing
at twot eighty, they didn't know where to put me.
I wasn't a linebacker, not in the edge. So the
game is always Evolving's why I love it. You missed
it by about two decads. And the money. Think about
(32:53):
the money guys are getting out.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Man, we could use a few more Al Wallace's in
this upcoming draft out pleasures. Always absolutely appreciate you guys
for having me. Ladies and gentlemen. The weekend close to
the episode caught by feeling touchdown Carolina Weekend Warriors Draft
(33:15):
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(00:21):
No easier way to enjoy your Sunday. Bud Light is
the official beer of the NFL and a proud partner
of the Carolina Panthers. An Ashrop, Tom Lougan Bill episode
three of our Draft Countdown. We're gonna talk to Al
Wallace in a little bit, but this episode centers around
the defensive line, and obviously you start with Derek Brown
(00:42):
coming back. That's just a huge piece that you're gonna add.
Had he been a free agent, he would have been
the top free agent on the market. Losing him for
pretty much the entire season, there was a trickle down effect.
There was no one to one replacement. So you start
building this thing up by saying, all right, you're getting
an all Pro caliber player back to anchor your defensive
(01:06):
front up, and then you start to build around that.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, yeah, and I think you know, in the case
of the Carolina Panthers, it's sheer numbers, right, And you know,
you just talked about having somebody like Derek Brown back
and you build around it. But when you lose a
Derek Brown and there's such a significant gap between the
player that's now replacing that player, and then you don't
have the competitive depth around it. It leads to why
(01:31):
the Panthers were in the position that they were in defensively.
So Derek Brown, I think is a kingpin piece. Fortunately,
the draft is fairly strong along the defensive front in
terms of sheer numbers. I think that if if there's
an area because I know you know, wide receiver is
(01:52):
a position of need, but if there's an area that
determines the difference between good and great, it's not wide
reas right, it's not safety, it's offensive line and defensive line.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And you think of how the Panthers finished last year.
Offense late in the season was not the problem. Defensively,
injuries added up, they didn't have the depth, and you know, frankly,
it was historically bad. So as we'll dive into some
of these draft prospects. Before we do that, I want
you to listen to what general manager Dan Morgan had
to say and what he's looking for in an interior
(02:28):
defensive lineman.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, interior d line Obviously, you have to have the height,
you have to have the length, and then you got
to be violent at the point of attack, and you've
got to have the strength, you know, to stack guys up.
We like to call it play gap and a half
even two gap, So we want our guys to be strong, physical,
and I obviously have that prototype measurables the height and
(02:51):
length as well.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Strong and violent at the point of attack. And this
leads me to believe Luke's pick can get number eight
in the first round. If a guy like Mason Graham
is able to fall to you, is that one where
you say you can't trade down, you can't pass this
guy up. If he's there at eight, is he a
(03:13):
must take type of player? I feel like he.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Might be the only player that would prevent you from
trading down and getting picks. He is, in my opinion
on tape, is the most unblockable defensive tackle prospect that
I had seen since Indamicansu came out at Nebraska College.
Tape I'm talking about, you can't. I don't know how
(03:38):
you're supposed to prepare for him. And if you're looking
at it from a three to four perspective and you're
gonna have you know. Is he a true zero, Is
he a true two gapper? No? But he is so
disruptive that he he blows up the plan Like I mean,
it's like you throw a grenade in the offensive front
of whoever you're playing because they don't have an ant.
(04:00):
And I think what I love about him is he
is a effort based player that runs on ninety three
octane all the time and has talent. There's a lot
of guys that run on ninety three octane, but they
have to because they're not as good as somebody else.
They're not as naturally gifted. That's not the case with
(04:20):
this dude.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
A couple of the guys that want to hit you
on on the interior of the d line. One is
Kenneth Grant, Mason Graham's teammate at Michigan. And then you know,
Walter Nolan's the guy who's been talked about a lot too,
was at A and M now coming out of Ole miss.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Former number one overall player coming out of high school.
And listen when you turn on the tape, that guy's
a problem. Like he's a handful. I'd be curious to
know from an investigation standpoint, of you know, you start
to look into all of these guys and you start
to ask about their habits and how they conduct themselves
and how they how they handle being who they are are.
(05:00):
I'd be curious to know what the feedback would have
been or is on a Walter Nolan guy, because the
one thing I'll say about him in my experience with
him going back to high school is oftentimes when you
get the highest profile of player, they're the most entitled player.
They're also the player that if they go to a
camp or combine, they just want to show up and
be seen. They don't want to actually work out. To
(05:22):
that kid's credit, every time there was a camp somewhere,
he showed up and he wanted to prove he was
the best guy there. And if he still has that mentality,
I think he's a really nice find.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Let's hit the edge position because that is a loaded
position in this year's draft, and you might be able
to get impact player not just on Day one, but
potentially Day two, day three as well. The guy whose
name since the college football Playoff has vaulted up up
up toward the top of the draft, maybe even a
potential number one overall. Though with the Browns, you know,
(05:58):
resigning Miles Garrett have the number one pick. Yeah, maybe
he slips into the three to five range. We'll see.
But Abdul Carter and Penn State the low hanging fruit cop.
And I've said this before, it's Michael Parson's school, same number, number,
the same position, same style. Yeah, is he Michael Parsons
two point zero?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I think he can be. You know, it's interesting. I
was on the sideline for both Penn State's playoff games
against Boise State and a SMU, and I was actually
struck by how unimposing he is physically. He's not very big,
he's not very tall, and then you see him move
(06:39):
and you're going, where'd he go? Yeah, Like it's like
a blur on the field. And I think in player evaluation,
you always have like that measurable standard that you want right,
and you have critical factors and boxes you want to
check and you say, we're not deviating from these, and
then production comes in to play and you're gonna have
(07:01):
to make a decision do we care because the production
is so good? Right? And I think with him now,
are there questions about what happens with him if somebody
lines up puts him in a phone booth and runs
right down his throat, which is what the league's turning
into you.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
And to make that case, the NFL is headed that way,
and Philly just won a Super Bowl playing that.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Way, and it's headed that way because that's been the
adaptation for offenses to deal with all of the speed
now on defense that they haven't been able to handle.
So it's it's interesting. Football just goes in cycles and
it comes back around. But I think with abdua card
and I'll say this and talking with Tom Allen, who's
now the defensive coordinator, Clinton was a defensive coordinator there
last year, former Indiana head former Indiana head coach and
(07:47):
wonderful man, and he was talking to us about how
much Abdul Carter wanted to play along the front as
opposed to standing up and playing off the ball. She
had his first couple of years, really the better part
of all three years. And so he actually came to
the coaching staff at Penn State is that I want
(08:10):
to play in this position because I've got to be
able to prove I can play with my hand on
the ground. Everybody knows I can stand up and I
can run around. I thought that was got a little
bit of an interesting nugget.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Dan Morgan at the Combine chiming in on what he's
looking for in an NFL edge rusher edge.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You know, you got to be explosive, you got to
be athletic, you got to be explosive, you got to
be able to bend and get off the ball. And
you know, those are the type of athletes that win,
and they win consistently in this league. So that's what
we'll be focusing on.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Dan wants explosive and first step explosiveness.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
There's a couple other guys that's a deep edge rusher class.
Mike Green at Marshall, small school guy. But oftentimes, again
we've talked about this during the season on the podcast,
we get it's so caught up in Measurables Combine Pro day,
we lose sight of the tape, we lose sight of
the production. You know, Mike Green produced seventeen sacks at Marshall,
(09:09):
and again you want to say, competition is not what
it would be in the SEC or a power conference.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Totally fair, and he started at Virginia Tech. He's a
Power five talent. Yeah, I listen, I think that you
have to always go back to the tape. And we
can measure arm length and hand size, and we can
do l drills, and we can do short shuttles, and
all of those are great pieces of the puzzle to
(09:36):
the player. But you can't duplicate playing the game in
shirts and shorts in the sport of football. And I
think that his You know, oftentimes you'll see defensive line coaches,
particularly off of the edge, and they want to see
how far upfield can a player get in one step
and how quickly can he do it right, and that
(09:58):
you start to measure that stuff, and you start to
slow down the tape and you're going, like, this guy's
three yards up the field and he hasn't taken his
second step.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You know, those types of things, one small step versus
one giant lea.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, exactly, And and I think that that perfectly describes
not only him, but you know, his former teammate is
a guy at Virginia Tech and Antonine Power Island. Just
the edge explosiveness, Josiah Stewart, edge explosiveness they all have.
(10:29):
And the one guy who may be as talented as
all of those guys but isn't as big is Donovan
Ezeraku at BC, but he also might be the smartest,
headiest football player of all of the class at that position.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I remember, and this is going back now, when I
was at Syracuse, they had an edge rusher who was
coming into the NFL, and everybody said, yeah, we know
the get off is maybe pantheon level, but he's too small.
He's too small. He's only about two fifties, barely six
'y three. Dwight Freenie is now in the Hall of Fame.
(11:07):
H turned out turned out okay well.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And I think the interesting thing is sometimes when you
do that, there there's an in between. There's a labeled
too small. Then there's the guy where you're like, he's
not too short, but he certainly isn't the length that
we want. And then there's the length guy everybody's gonna
sign off on.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Sometimes the too small guy it becomes the guy that's
the six to seven offensive tackle can't block because he
can't bend. He can't and if he does bend, he's
gonna bend at the waist and not at the knee,
and he's ohost.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
And tape don't lie.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
No.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I watched a game where Dwight Freenie in college sacked
Michael Vick four times, four times, and I bet he was.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
About four feet off the ground when he was bending
and turning that edge. That's how Teddy Bruski was coming
out of Arizona at five foot eleven.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Then there's the other prospect we have every the immensely talented,
he's got all the skills, you're ninety three octane guy. However,
there have been reports about James Pearce at Tennessee, and
this was a guy, you know who now has to
deal with some character issues. I go back to the
(12:17):
beginning of the season. He was talked about at one
point as one to one first overall, like that's the
type of talent we're talking about, and now he's somebody
who may not even get drafted on Day one, maybe
a second round guy. So interesting test case because there's
examples on both sides where you know, you get a
guy who coming out of college has some character issues
(12:38):
and then all of a sudden they get to the
NFL you find out they're overblown, or a guy like
Warren Sapp. Remember Warren Sapp in any draft would have
been the first guy taken easily right, But there were
some off field things with Warren Sapp coming out of Miami.
He fell turns into a Hall of Fame player. So
you've seen both sides of the coin. How do you
evaluate a James Pierce?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So I'm gonna use who you just use with Warren
Sapp as example. So you'd have to ask if I
asked Warren anybody about Warren Sapp and I asked this question,
if you took football away from him, would he go
jump off a bridge? And I guarantee you everybody around
Warren Sap at that time that scouts and gms and
coaches talked to would have said absolutely, because he loved
(13:22):
football that much. What scouts and GMS and coaches in
this draft need to find out about James Pears's does
he love football? Because his production went way down? I
mean he's six five two and forty three pounds or
around of four to four to seven that that's not
standing on every street corner. But we're a nitpicking season, right,
and in nitpicking season, you are literally trying to uncover
(13:45):
every red flag to avoid making a whatever fifty sixty
million dollar decision and have it blow up in your face.
So you better figure out if it's something you can
deal with, if it's something that's going to destroy your
locker room, if it's maybe just a maturity. All of
those things are what are are what's called weighing risk.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
General manager Dan Morgan on what everything boils down to.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
I really think everything boils down to does a guy
love the game of football? And I think, you know,
through the interview process, that's what you try to figure out,
and does that match up with the tape? You know,
if I see a guy out there and he's kind
of dogging into the ball every other play like that
doesn't really show me you love football. So you know,
we look for guys that you know, are competitors, they
(14:34):
want to compete at every turn. They love the game,
they love the process, and this is just all part
of the evaluation process that will continue to you know,
keep chipping away out through the spring.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Well, there you have it, right, does the guy love football?
And I think the problem with when you ask that
question is football is really fun?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Right? I mean it is.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It is fun. It's fun to play it, It's always
been fun to play it. But to be really, really good,
potentially great, potentially elite, you you literally have to commit
yourself to it in every way, shape or form, And
if you're not willing to do that, then you're gonna
(15:17):
limit what your ceiling is and how far you will
go in this sport. So and that's what differentiates the
super talented guy and somebody else who's also equally talented.
And one guy makes it, one guy doesn't. And it
often comes down to exactly what Dan Morgan just said.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
All right, before we get to Al Wallace, a couple
of guys, not Day one guys that I want to
hit on. You mentioned Azeraku a little bit, but a
guy that our audience may be familiar with, the Rucker
kid from North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yes, came in Rucker, the Butcher. The Butcher great hands,
I think, the explosive hands, the ability to counter. He
always has a plan. I think that's the other thing too.
When you look at some of these guys, they come
off the ball, they got a plan. What if Plan
A doesn't work? And a lot of that comes down
to coaching too, because you got to coach what's planing
be gonna be?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
What plan is he gonna be?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
His nickname is the Butcher because his hands are so
good and he's always got a plan for ustage. So
whether it's top rip arm under, whether it's uh even
actually has a pretty good bull rush too. I had
a chance to see him a couple of times this year,
but he was hurt, and I think, you know, he
he played a lot of football and he was probably
on pace to have a monster year on defense because
(16:30):
Carolina actually on defense this year had some guys that
were pretty good. And then he then he got hurt
and uh but I think he's a really well rounded guy.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And then you may have seen these guys in the
college football playoff Ohio State with a couple of intriguing
prospects at edge, including Jack Sawyer. Love him who I
know you saw out of high school. You had him
what number one or number two? Came out high school? Yeah,
he was number one. I want to say that was
the COVID year because we didn't have the under Armoor
All in America game and so he didn't play in
(17:02):
the game. And then he enrolled early uh.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
At at at Ohio State actually didn't play his senior
year if you remember that, and just got on campus.
But I'll tell you the thing about him, another high
effort guy, but he wasn't an instant splash guy, which
to me is a positive because it tells me that
he still has a high ceiling for development, that he's
(17:27):
not tapped out, played his best football against the best
teams on their schedule, and he played his best football
this past year, which is his last year of eligibility.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I think that's important. And then they got the other guy, JT.
I hope I don't butcher his last name Twoey molowaw.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yep, yeah, well done.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah again, listen, I've done enough BYU Hawaii Utah game
shot him out right, Yeah, JT.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well you can just call JTT for sure. That's what
everybody else calls him. Well, you know, and they got three.
They got those two guys, and they got Tyler Williams
on the inside. You know, I mean he'd be more
in the conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
That's a tool time nickname coming it absolutely it is.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But yeah, I mean a great player again, not very big,
but you know, it's interesting for people who haven't seen him,
Like when you see Joey Bosa compared to Nick Bosa,
there's a distinct difference in size. Yeah, and you don't
realize it until you're close to him, and so I
think that JTT is a little bit more like Nick
(18:27):
in terms of his stature. But again, good defense, it's
a good I think there's good value rounds four through
seven in the defensive front.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. And then one final guy South Carolina, Kyle Knnard. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I think you know. To me, his size is really
really impressive because when you have that type of size
and if you're gonna let's just say you're gonna be
in the three four, you can line up at the
five and you can hold up at the point of attack,
but you could probably line up at zero two. And
I think that's also what makes Zeke Biggers at Georgia
Tech a very interest. He is massive thirty five inch arms, Wow,
(19:05):
I mean and that stuff like that. When you got
thirty five inch arms, you can visibly see that on
film immediately, right, And so he's another guy where you
start to add bolk and size and length. Now it
makes you a hot commodity.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
If you're wondering why didn't we we didn't get to
Jalen Walker and mikel Williams from Georgia, we will when
we talk linebackers with Luke Keighley. We're gonna get into
those guys, because in Walker's case, he's not just an
edge rusher. He can fit the run. And mikel Williams
there's a little bit of Frankie louvo in there where
(19:40):
you can move him around and it becomes an interesting
chess piece. So we'll get into that when we talk linebackers.
We're gonna have Luke Keigley on that show. But we
do have a special guest coming your way. We do
want to remind you the weekend Warriors Draft Special is
brought to you by bud Light. No easier way to
enjoy your Sunday. Bud Light is the official beer of
the NFL and a proud partner of the Carolina Panthers.
(20:05):
We love celebrating our fans, and so does bud Light.
We are teaming up to give one of our lucky
listeners the ultimate tailgating prize pack. Ready for this the
Panthers and bud Light tintacker behind us. That's that big
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to be paired with co branded merch fit for any
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(20:28):
enter for your chance to win. You only get to
enter once. The grand prize winner will be announced during
the Panthers Draft Show airing on Day one of the draft,
which is April twenty fourth. You don't want to miss it.
Entrance must be twenty one years or older to participate
and be eligible. All right, let's bring in a guy
(20:50):
who played the position and played for the Panthers on
their Super Bowl team back in two thousand and three.
Al Wallace. I'll just to go back to three and
we talk about the trenches and the defensive line that
was the strength of that two thousand and three team.
You Pep Jenkins Rucker. When you have those kind of
(21:12):
pieces up front, what does it allow everyone else to do?
Speaker 4 (21:15):
It allows everybody on the back end to just play naturally,
just flow to the ball when you're able to take
up those gaps, those run fits, and really eat up
that line of scrimmage. You have guys like Dan Morgan,
Will Weatherspoon.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
You know, you.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Look at all the guys on the back end, they're
just able to play naturally, play with instinct and not
think about it. And I think when you think about
the game of football, the less you can think, as
crazy as that sound, the more you can just feed
off your gut and go and attack and play downhill.
You have some success, and we certainly have that.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
You guys had it on the inside and on the edge,
and in this particular draft, trying to figure out where
to address both needs and where to do it first,
in your opinion, you look at the Panthers defensively up front.
Is it on the edge, is it in the middle,
is it a combination?
Speaker 4 (22:05):
What needs to be addressed first? I think you have
to start the closer you are to the ball. The
game has changed a lot. Edge rushers I think are
essential to the game. But when I look at Chris Jones,
when I look at Jalen Carter for the Philadelphia Eagles,
I know Josh Wett had an incredible Super Bowl, but
that push from the interior of the defensive line is essential.
(22:26):
And on that team that Anisha's talking about that we had.
We had Chris Jenkins, right, he was our battering ram.
But then you look at Brinson Buckner, you look at
Kendall moorehead, some of those guys that were coming off
the bench, Shane Burton. That were the three techniques, the
penetrators that did a lot of the damage that shortened
the corner for Rucker and Pepper's and myself to really
get home. And I think when you build a defensive line,
(22:47):
you have Derek Brown. Now where's that three technique? And
I feel like the Panthers have been missing that maybe
since KK Short was on this football team.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, and you mentioned again that's what the Panthers doing
now three to four defense with Adria. So in that
three four scheme, what is that ideal three technique in
the middle, if Derek Brown and A'shawn Robinson are going
to be you know, the end is in the three four,
what does that ideal three technique look like? I think he's.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Maybe around a three hundred pounder, longer rangier, not your
six two sixty three wider body that's just a space
eater that's two gapping holding up. I think a guy
that can really get in that track stance, kind of
put that backfoot back and get home right. Disruptiveness in
the backfield. Not a guy who's going to control the
guard or the tackle if you're playing out in a
(23:36):
five technique, but a guy who's really just going to
be in the backfield, change the line of scrimmage and
That's what defensive line coaches talk about all the time.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Right. It is not.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
About holding that point of attack. It's how much chaos
can you create by just penetrating and knocking guys around
in the backfield.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
When you look at from a player evaluation standpoint. We
can measure arms, we can measure hands, we can do height, weight,
three coneld, all of it. But what are some traits
in your opinion when it comes to the defensive front.
Seven let's just focus on the front that aren't coachable
that you think are critical for guys to have success
at this level.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I think there are guys that you look for as
a defensive lineman and I'm just looking at my own
hands and fingers. It's about that pop, right, It's about
that pop with the hands, hands, violent hands at the
defensive end or interior tackle position, great hips, leverage, understanding
how to position your body. Most of the times at
defensive end, your outwedge or outweighed edge. Guys are outweighed.
(24:34):
But can you roll those hips? Can you fire right?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Hips? Hands? Feet?
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Is what we were talking. How did you come off
the line of scrimmage? Those things I think are essential
when you're evaluating defensive players, defensive linemen, how do they
come off the line of scrimmage? Is their explosion? Are
they playing through their hips? And are they violent with
the hands? Unfortunately, for defensive guys on that defensive line,
those fingers are gonna pop out, They're gonna be broken.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I've had more ltiple things.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
But if you're a violent guy with playing with your hands,
you can control those offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Alan, you know, you're plugged in not just to the NFL,
but the college scene as well. So when you're projecting
these guys from college to the NFL, and you talk
about hands, and we get into the measurables, right, arm length,
hand size, things like that, height, weight, how do you
weigh that versus actual production at the college level.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Yeah, I think all those things are great, and I'm
a huge fan of the Combine. I watch them every year.
I compare my stats from way back in nineteen ninety seven, Right,
how fast.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Was at the Underware Olympics? Right?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Right?
Speaker 4 (25:39):
But at the end of the day, what you see
at the Combine on those field that those measurables, you
better be able to match them up and turn on
the film. They better be able to translate to production
on the field. I think so often everyone gets caught
up in those measurables and they forget to look at
the film. I want a guy who produces. If it's
a hunter, if you're a pass rusher, you better show
(26:00):
me a pass restaurant tape. In college, you're not gonna
get to the NFL and somehow develop into a double
digit sack guy. So if you're a four or five
sack career guy out of three years in college, could
you get ten sacks? You can, But I want a
guy who's gonna go get the quarterback and he's proven
that from high school college and it's gonna move on
to the NFL.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
You touched on something there, because football is the only
sport that cannot be duplicated in an offseason. Meaning if
I'm playing basketball in the winter and I'm playing basketball
in the summer, it's the same game. Tennis, golf, baseball,
all of it. But football, when you go into an
off season, you're in shirts and shorts, and that's not
the same game, right. And we look at the combine
or a pro day, and let's just say, as an
(26:42):
NFL scout or a GM or as a coach, they're
watching guys on tape for two to three years and
then they allow a four hour window on one day
to completely alter what they thought about a player. Are
you of the belief that if you do that, you're
gonna be prone to make more mistakes when you're paying
(27:03):
too much attention to a pro day or a combine scenario.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, I believe so. Because the physicality of the game,
the desire to go and make a tackle, all these
things that play a role in whether you're going to
be a good football player or not.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
None of that matters.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Right when I train for the combine or my pro day,
it was about those specific drills and can I polish
those up? Can I make those look really really good.
We know a bunch of guys who've been just combined studs,
and then you get to the NFL and it just
doesn't show up because those drills, right taking on a double,
turning the edge, getting to the quarterback, and finishing, they
(27:40):
don't translate to a forty or a cone drill or shuttle.
It just doesn't happen that way. So football is the
best predictor of football. You gotta play the game what
you see on film. A guy's desire, attitude, and really
energy towards the game is what's going to show up
when you get them in your mini camp, when you
put the pads on in training camp and art playing football.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So what you're saying is the Cones don't hit real hard.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
They don't hit all those backs, they don't move the bags,
don't hit back in at the Combine, all right, you
cover the Charlotte forty nine ers if you know this draft,
but we hear deep for edge rushers, deep for defensive lineman.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
You get into the later rounds when you're looking at
a small school guy for example, you know what are
attributes you're looking from a small school guy? When I
guess the you know, disclaimer is okay, he didn't play
the same schedule that maybe a Georgia or in Alabama played.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
I think are the same things we've talked about guys.
It's a football player. I know a guy that I
was a huge fan of that went to Charlotte that
moved on.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
I can't remember what Dimitrius Knight is. He was an
incredible guy, started at Georgia Tech. This is a guy
they highlighted at the Combine. Has two kids.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Now.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
He was a father at Charlotte, But this guy played
with his hair on fire. And I think at any level,
you put a football player on the field that has
a nose for the ball, that plays with a certain
level of intensity, you can try to say, well, it's
not the SEC, it's just the American Athletic Conference. But
a football player who gets to the ball, plays with violence,
who is cerebral's gonna go into a film room and
(29:15):
learn how to get better. Not from a physical standpoint,
but how can I put myself in the best position
to make a plays. Are the types of football players
that I'm looking at. We've seen a bunch of small
school guys find it in the NFL because that light
has always been on. They just needed a better opportunity.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Now, going back to the combine for one moment, because
I feel like one big topic of conversation that came
out of this year's combine was arm length. It seemed
to be the one thing that everybody seemed to be talking.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's the new hand size for quarterbacks, right.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And so it Will Campbell the offensive tackle LSU. Most notably,
everybody was discussing that a guy like Donovan Azeraku out
of Boston college some other guys from your perspective, tell
people why arm length is so important.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
I think arm length for a guy like myself, a
defense is to be able to keep those three hundred
pounders off your body. If one of those guys, if
an offensive lineman get into my body, it's over. I
played in the NFL two hundred and seventy two hundred
and seventy five pounds three hundred and thirty pound offensive
lineman leverage strength wise, it was pretty strong, but they
get into your body, it's over. So when you talk
(30:18):
about arm land from a defensive end standpoint, it's about
locking a guy out, keeping them off of your body,
shed release, making a tackle. Now I think it's less
important in today's game because edge rushers guys don't look
quite like me, and the game is different. It's about penetration.
We talked about that earlier. Can I get in the backfield?
I'm not staying on the block. Nobody's asking me to
(30:40):
be stout at the point of attack. I think some
of those are kind of antiquated thoughts. When you feel
like a defensive end or an edge rusher needs to
set the edge, No, just go and blow something up.
So I'm not staying there. I don't need the arm length.
Can I get after it? That's what's more.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
But to that point, I think we're starting to see
the NFL chaine a little bit right, where for years
everyone's going faster and smaller on defense. So now you
watch what the Eagles did right, Power running attack fueled
their run all the way to a championship. You're seeing
it with the ravens Lamar Jackson, Derrick Henry. You know
they got Ricard back there, and then their tight ends
(31:16):
double tight end sets all the time. So are we
now in this era where there is a philosophical shift
offensively to take advantage of those smaller edge rushers, smaller linebackers,
the hybrid safety linebacker type.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Absolutely take the air out of them. If those guys
are going to run around blocks, let's play to it.
Let's run powers right at those edge rushers who are
not going to be stout at the point like.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You said it, holding up at the point of attack.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, and now you put them in a phone booth
and they can't hold up.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
I came out of University of Maryland two hundred and
fifty five pounds defensive end. I was a tweiner. That
word doesn't exist anymore. It's not defensive end anymore. It's
called edge because those are those bodies can range from
six to five anywhere down to six to two. So
now offensive coordinators are evolving. Hey, we can't we can't
run up around them, so let's just run at them.
(32:08):
Let's push them around. Let's force them to run around
these big offensive linemen and these twelve personnels, these two
tight end sets. And now make those gaps just wide,
and you see Saquon, you see Josh Jacobs just barreling
through these things on powers or outside zones. And the
game is evolving, and you'll start seeing defensive ends coming
to the league. They'll be bigger, they'll be stronger, and
(32:29):
it's just the evolution of the game. Had I been
at an edge in today's game, would have been perfect.
But back in nineteen ninety seven, I went undrafted. I
was a tweinter, two hundred and fifty five pounds in
when Reggie White and those types of guys were playing
at twot eighty, they didn't know where to put me.
I wasn't a linebacker, not in the edge. So the
game is always Evolving's why I love it. You missed
it by about two decads. And the money. Think about
(32:53):
the money guys are getting out.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Man, we could use a few more Al Wallace's in
this upcoming draft out pleasures. Always absolutely appreciate you guys
for having me. Ladies and gentlemen. The weekend close to
the episode caught by feeling touchdown Carolina Weekend Warriors Draft
(33:15):
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