April 7, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of "Weekend Warriors," Anish and Tom dive into the linebacker prospects of the 2025 NFL Draft class. They’re joined by Panther Legend, Luke Kuechly, who shares his insights on what it takes to succeed as a linebacker in the NFL. Tune in as they discuss the top talents in this year’s draft, analyze their potential impact on the Panthers, and hear Luke's expert opinions on the future stars of the league.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ladies and Gentlemen. The Weekend close to the episode.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Pop by Dylan Touchdown.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Carolina Weekend Warriors Draft Special.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
The Weekend Warriors Draft Special is brought to you by
bud Light. No easier way to enjoy your Sunday. Bud
Light is the official beer of the NFL and a
proud partner of the Carolina Panthers. It is time for
the Linebackers episode. As we lead you into the NFL Draft,
We're gonna have the greatest Panther linebacker, maybe the greatest
(00:40):
Panther of all time. Luke Keithley join us later in
the show Boy. If we get a linebacker who thinks
and plays like Luke, we're in really good shape. Yeah,
but we're also going to hit a couple of guys
that we did not hit in the episode where we
talk about edge rushers and defensive line guys like Jalen Walker,
guys like Mickel Williams, guys who can fit multiple roles
(01:02):
in a defense, and a shroff Tom Lougan Bill with
the Tom's at ESPN analyst covers college football National director
of Recruiting, so he has seen a lot of these
prospects from the time that they were in high school.
Panthers pick eighth. Overall, the prevailing sentiment is they're gonna
(01:23):
go defense. They need help on the front seven. So
let's start with a guy whose name has been associated
with Carolina and that eighth pick, and that's Jalen Walker
at Georgia. He seems to be are just a really
good scheme fit in a three to four defense, doesn't.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
He Well not when you say scheme fit, it's the
scheme versatility in the sense of playing off the ball,
playing on the ball, playing wide on the ball. To me,
a guy like him is he's a chess piece and
you could place him here, placing there, and find out
(02:00):
where he's located and identify him every time you come
to the line of scrimmage. And I think those guys
put so much pressure on you offensively. And now with
the way defenses have started to play, you know, we
don't have traditional quote unquote defensive end ye where we
now kind of call him edges and they may not
(02:21):
have their hand on the ground, and sometimes they do
have their hand on the ground. But I think he's
the most well rounded of the group that's out there
on the draft boards.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And oh, by the way from Salisbury, North Carolina native,
so that's a homecoming. Yeah. The other guy who has
drawn comparisons to a former Panther and a pretty good one,
Mickel Williams has drawn Frankie Luvu comparisons as another guy
that you can kind of move around the field. He
can come after the quarterback, he can fit the run.
(02:54):
You're comfortable leaving him in coverage and again in a
three four defense where so much of it is based
on disguising what you want to do. You talk about
a chess piece, that's another chess piece.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
It's another chess piece. And I think the question with
Michael Williams is how far has he come since his
true freshman year and is the productivity there to the
level it should be when you consider he was a
starter as a true freshman.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Really, I mean it's like everybody.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I think at the time, I remember going, WHOA, Okay,
this guy's going to be a real handful. But then
did he end up turning into what Abdul Carter has
turned into, or even Jalen as you mentioned, has turned
into an answers Probably no. So now you start asking more.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Questions and with him again, he's a Georgia guy and
recency biases at play. But you just watched what Philly did.
All those Georgia guys on defense they want a Super Bowl.
Is there something to be said about the pedigree of
that program and the defensive players that they've produced under
(04:00):
Kirby Smart.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I think that there is a standard and an expectation
that you have to meet to get on the field
at the University of Georgia, and everybody knows it because
competition is not motivated by the coaches. It's motivated by
the personnel, meaning that if I don't play well.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
There's a five star waiting behind you.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
He's right to my left and he's right to my right,
so that you know. And Bobby Knight used to say,
the single greatest motivator is your ass on the bench right.
And so I think that when you come into pro
football out of programs like that where there has been
such a high level of performance standard, that those guys
are more ready because they're less surprised by anything that
(04:39):
may come their way.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
A couple other guys to hit on. Let's keep it
in the sec. Johad Campbell stud.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Stud I really like him and he is he's almost
an inside guy. I mean, he's big, and he's physical,
and he can run terrific at the point of attack.
I've actually been a little bit surprised that, not that
he's not being talked about, but you know, a lot
of the focus has been on Jalen Walker and some
(05:09):
of the other guys at the position. I just think
that he's got some stuff. And again, same type of
thing that pedigree you mentioned of meeting a standard in
the expectation to perform consistently at a championship level. And
you know the other thing too, and with with Jihad Campbell,
is that defense and whether you want to take it
(05:31):
back to Bill Belichick, Nicksabe and now Kirby Smart and
all the different branches that have come off of that tree.
You can't be a dumb football player and perform well
in that defense. You have to have a high football IQ.
You have to be able to process quickly, and you
have to be able to communicate. And when that is
something that you can prove you can do and do
(05:52):
it at a high level, the learning curve is much
less steep. When you move on to the National Football League, we.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Start looking at guys like a Campbell who's a borderline
first second round pick most likely, and then you know
you get later in the draft. The Panthers seem to
have found a promising one and Trevin Wallace, a year
ago third rounder out of Kentucky, was thrown into the fire.
But I'll give you a name, a guy that I
saw at Oklahoma, and uh, you know, it's easy to
(06:23):
go Bosworth with Danny. Stan kind of has the hair, Yeah,
has the personality, but he's a hair on fire type
of player.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
He actually, to be honest with you, he if you
look at him and you just watch and you see him,
you kind of think of Luke right Like there's there's
some similarity. The tough, rugged always kind of has a
nose for the ball, no was where to go? Uh,
doesn't take false steps. I think he studies the game,
(06:56):
all of those, especially a linebacker. I mean, if if
you're not in tune with what's happening in front of
you and knowing the game, you're not gonna maximize your production.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
The running joke has been the Panthers have never drafted
a player out of Clemson. What about a Barrett Carter
who you saw covering the acc quite a bit.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
This year, didn't have the year this pass fall that
he had had the previous two seasons. I just think
he's a really good football player, like well rounded, you
know exactly what you're gonna get. You're gonna have no
issues with him, A pros pro, a lot of pride
in his game. He can rush the passer. I think
that's really really important, and I think he'll be an
(07:37):
unbelievable teams guy.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Cody Simon is somebody we saw at Ohio State. Again
loaded defense. There's a lot of playmakers on that defense
and maybe doesn't always get the attention as JTT or
a Jack Sawyer up front, but again, watching him in
that college football playoff always seemed to be right place,
right time.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
He Carson Swesten at UCLA and Jack Kaiser at Notre
Dame are all kind of in that same boat, right You.
What you see is what you get. Good production, solid
football player. May not be elite in any one area,
but just good, good player. And you know, I think
(08:18):
that sometimes it's not a bad thing to get overlooked
because of the other players around you, because the next
thing you know, people start digging in on the tape
more on you. As a result, right, and that can
I mean, could it hurt you?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think in most cases it benefits you. I'm gonna
throw one more name out there. And this was the
guy that, uh this saw a little bit at Oklahoma State.
He was hurt this past season, one hundred and forty
tackles the year before. You know where I'm going with this,
Nick Martin, Yeah, flew around the field. Smaller guy right,
doesn't have the prototypical size closer to two twenty I
(08:55):
would imagine would have to throw on a little bit
of weight. But when he is healthy, the production was
off the charts. And yeah, to me, that position middle linebacker,
especially in a three four, if the guys up front
are doing their job, you have opportunities to make tackles.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
There's no question like that that that's it.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Right, Seaball, get ball, I think, And you're right. You know, listen,
he's an inch. He's about an inch and a half
taller than Zach Thomas. So when you look at a
guy like Zach Thomas and you look at a guy
like Nick Martin, you're saying, Okay, what is the end result?
I don't care who when you when you put forth
one hundred and forty tackles. That's not just happening on ability.
(09:40):
To me, that's happening on aptitude, meaning you're studying beforehand,
you're prepared, and you know where the ball is going
and then you know how to get there. Like all
of those things, I think I think there's some inherent
traits there on high tackle guys that it's not just ability.
There's something else going on.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, I mean, we're gonna hear from Luke in a
little bit well, prime example, prime example. And Luke was
a notorious film study, great instincts. Yep, knew where the
ball was going before it was snapped.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
I mean, just think about all the NFL film stuff
with him where he's calling out where everything's going on
defense exactly right. And but again that doesn't come from
physical attributes necessarily.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So do you look at that position in a lot
of ways the way you would look at, you know,
evaluating a quarterback where because so much happens before the
ball snapped, I think we lose sight of that sometimes, right,
Like a great quarterback when you talk to him and
you know you've said this to me too. As somebody
who's played the position, you kind of need to know
(10:48):
the menu before the ball's in your hand.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, and it's it's the same
on defense. I mean, think about every down in distance,
personnel groupings, strength of the formation and all and then
then the shifts, the motions, all of those things are
and they're all happening before the balls even snapped, and
they're all being employed to try to get you, as
(11:12):
a defensive player, to take one false step to bring
your eyes from here to there when they're not supposed
to go over there. Right, Do you have the discipline
to not do that stuff? And your coach is talking
about eye violations and wrong fits and all of that stuff.
That stuff happens when you're not disciplining, you're not prepared.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We get enamored right with with arm strength and you know,
all this stuff sometimes with the quarterbacks, and then it's
the above the shoulders, the processing. I mean Tom Brady
coming out of college arm strength was a negative. Yeah,
people said that about Bryce Young too, where average arm
strength and then you kind of saw it in the
second season his ability to process and read a defense.
(11:51):
Peyton Manning was never a big armed guy when you
was Ryan Leif.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
You look at that draft right and you if you'd
have asked any one of the thirty two gms at
that time, who's the most physically gifted amongst Ryan Leaf
and Peyton man not one of them would have said
Peyton Manning, not one of them. But then from the
neck up and all of the other things, then it
was the complete opposite.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
So is that the evaluation then for an inside linebacker?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I think so, I listen. I think there's a lot
of guys that are gonna be big enough, fast enough,
strong enough. But we've talked obviously on this podcast about
do you love the game? The most important question you've
got to get an answer to and an honest answer
to when you're investigating these guys. But aptitude and processing
(12:43):
at that position in the middle of the field, outside
of the quarterback position and maybe the offensive center, it's
as important as any position.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
All Right, We're going to talk to a guy who
was as good as anyone at that Luke Keikley. In
just a moment, we remind you. The weekend Warriors Draft
Special is brought to you by Buddy Light. No easier
way to enjoy your Sunday. Bud Light is the official
beer of the NFL and a proud partner of the
Carolina Panthers. We love celebrating our fans, and so does
(13:12):
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Speaker 4 (13:25):
I don't take it first.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
It's going to be paired with co branded merch fit
for any Panthers fan. Use the link in our podcast
description to enter for your chance to win. You only
get to enter once. The grand prize winner will be
announced during the Panthers Draft Show airing on Day one
of the Draft, which is April twenty fourth. You don't
want to miss it. Entrance must be twenty one years
(13:48):
or older to participate and be eligible. You know him
as a Panther legend. A former Boston College Eagle, former
ninth overall pick in two thousand in twelve, played in
Super Bowl fifty seven time Pro Bowler, five time First
Team All Pro, Defensive Player of the Year, Defensive Rookie
(14:08):
of the Year, future Hall of Famer. Area is Luke Keigley. Welcome, Luke.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
It's good. It's good to be here. I come up
to this room a lot, and he said a lot
of nice things about me. So maybe they'll come back
more often.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Well, you know, and I may have to stop. So
I got run out of the run out of paper.
We're running out of paper. Once he gets the gold jacket,
that list gets even longer. But listen, we've been talking
about linebackers on the show. We want to get into
some edge guys. But before we get into any of that,
I mean, you know, we're sitting here on Sunday, we're
watching the games, and one thing that was painfully obvious
(14:42):
at times last year Panthers really just didn't have any
depth at that position. And now Shaq Thompson is gone.
You got Josie Jewel, Trevin Wallace, and then kind of
a bunch of question marks.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, I think you look at kind of going into
the season last year, you felt good about Shack and
then Josie offseason edition felt good about them, and then
you draft Trevin, who Dan really likes, size, speed, athletic ability, physical,
and then Shack goes down early in the season, Josie
gets banged up, Trevin gets thrown in, Trevin played well
in spots, and then Trevin gets hurt, and then before
(15:14):
you know it, we're looking at the roster on Sundays
and you, Jake and I are thinking like where did
this guy? Where did this guy come from? So, you know,
going into the offseason, Trevin obviously had the shoulder surgery,
so he's gonna be coming off that year.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Two.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
The best thing I think that we have about our
team going into this offseason into next season is everything's
the same. Obviously, Dave's back, Canalis is back for Bryce,
and then on the defensive side of the ball, it's
no longer a new system for anybody on the defense.
Obviously offseason additions, you know, draft the guys, it will
be new for them, But for our guys it's exactly
the same, which is great, so Trevin won't have to relearn.
(15:50):
But with that being said, I think Josie's our guy.
Obviously we know he's going to play a lot this year.
And then what do we get from Trevin. How's his
offseason going, how's his recovery doing, how does he show
up in OTAs it's gonna be, I think with it
goes without being said, We're going to pick up some
pieces on the defense side of the ball, especially off
the ball linebackers. So how does he fit into that mix?
Where does he belong, how does he compete? How does
(16:11):
he take that challenge? I think he'll do a really
good job with it. But I think here free agency
obviously started than the draft in April. Answer a lot
of questions.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
You know, you talk about the linebacker position, and if
the Panthers are sitting there at eight, and let's just
say they don't trade down to get other picks, but
you've got a difference maker or let's just say in
the defensive front, Yeah, that's available on the board, where
would you lean and why?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I think at that eight spot, the one guy that
gets thrown around a lot is Jalen Walker, the kid
from Georgia. He's off the ball, he's on the ball,
he can rush. Obviously played at a big time system
at Georgia, so I think he's the really only guy
that would play off the ball that you could draft
an eight. There's a couple other guys that we'll get
to in a little bit that are really good players,
but at eight, I don't know. But then there's names
(16:56):
that are getting thrown right. I think Abdul Carter's gone right,
Mason Graham, the kid from George, kid from Michigan, would
be a really solid piece. Obviously, Ashawn Derek Brown, and
then you add Mason Graham, he's a problem. You'd feel
really good about it. I think there's a couple other guys,
but the dudes that I think about at eight are
Mason Graham, Jalen Walker. Obviously, Abdul Carter's going to be gone.
He's fun to watch. But in my opinion, if you're
(17:19):
going to go up front or if you're going to
go linebacker, those are the kind of guys that I'm
thinking about right now.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And when you look at the history of this franchise
and you're a part of it, to me, the glamour
position in the thirty year history of the Carolina Panthers,
it's been middle linebacker, whether it was you or Sam
Mills or John Beeson, whoever had been in there, Dan
Morgan right Shaq Thompson up until recently, that has been
kind of the position. You played it as well as anybody.
(17:46):
When you kind of look at inside linebacker, take away
the athleticism for a moment, just from shoulders up, what
are you looking for?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think the biggest thing with these guys is how
will they process? How well can you process what's going
on in front of you when the ball gets snapped.
I think there's a lot of guys. When you get
him on the board and you talk to him like, hey,
you know wou's say Carson Sweessingering or the kid from UCLA.
You can put him on a board, you can have
him draw everything up. You can talk about gap exchange,
(18:17):
you can talk about run fits, you can talk about
where guys go and say a guard pools, where's your
next available gap? All these guys can probably do that,
So that part, to me, the intelligence side is a
different conversation. All these guys know what they're doing, but
when the ball gets snapped, how quickly can they go guardpool?
I'm a B gap player now I'm an a gap player.
But what happens when you know it's it's it's a
(18:40):
front side zone play and they and they bring the
center around it's called a wipe scheme. What happens when
they bring him around? How quickly can he diagnose, process
and then ultimately get where he needs to get to.
I think that's the biggest thing for me with these guys.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
How can you find that out?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think you watch him on tape and how quickly
do they react. I think you know, you watch guys
on tape and you wonder, like, why is it he
going there? And then you go talk to him and
it's not that he doesn't know what he's doing, it's
just he can't get there fast enough. So when you
watch guys, I think the ones that are really special,
the guys that have all the athletic ability, and then
(19:16):
when the ball gets snap, he sees the guard pool,
he knows exactly where he's going, he gets there, and
then he can win. I mean, on defense, one guy
is designated to block you on that play. You know,
as an inside backer, it's a guard to center, sometimes
a tackle, but primarily a guard in the center. If
you understand who's supposed to block you where they're trying
to get to what gap you have and then the
(19:37):
ball cans snap boom, guard pools. I go from the
backside B gap to a front side A gap. If
it's a power play with the guard pool, I know
it's the guard in the center double teaming the three
technique up to me. I got to get in the
A gap right now. The guard's gonna come off. If
you know that, now you can play ahead of the
play that guy pulls. Boom, I got to beat the guard.
If I set him up here, boom, I can push
the inside a gap and get to the football. I
(19:59):
think the guys that are really good have the ability
to do all of that. Once the ball gets snapped.
Half of it's can you get lined up? You know
where you got to be? Then the second part is
when the ball gets snapped, I need to get there
right now.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
So we were having a conversation just prior to you
walking in here, Luke, and we brought up Nick Martin
at Oklahoma State. Yeah, undersized guy one hundred and forty tackles, right,
that doesn't happen on athleticism alone. And to your point
of aptitude, diagnosing, processing and boom boom boom, And it's
just becoming second nature when that occurs. How much does
(20:34):
that do to sheer preparation or maybe a god given
instinct that you can't coach, or combination.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I think it's a combination. I think certain guys have
better instincts than other guys, right, but I think that
you can if you don't have great instincts. The more
you prepare, the better you are. And then I think
it goes the same thing with you know, if you
do have instincts, the more you watch, the more you
absorb it just takes it to a different leve level.
So I think, you know, when you think about instincts,
(21:03):
it's feel. It's just peripheral feel. It's understanding what offenses
are trying to do, how you fit within your defense.
And I think when you really think about instincts, it's like,
all right, sometimes I have to get over a block,
but can I slip it and get there? The guys
that understand how to take calculated risks, the guys that
understand how to get to a point of attack when
(21:24):
they have a bad angle, those are the guys that
kind of bend the rules of football a little bit
and can just get there, yeah, more efficiently than other guys.
There's certain guys that play like robots and maybe I
have to get over the top of a block, and
they just that's what the book says. I'm going to
go play by the book, And yes, you're doing what
you've been coached to do, but you're not making a
play on the football. The guys that have instincts understand
(21:47):
that boom. I've seen this play before on tape. I
can feel it. I understand what's going on. This is
where the offensive lineman is, he's at a phase of
the running back. I can shoot that gap and go underneath.
Technically watching tape, I'm wrong, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
The rule is always you better get there.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And if the guys that the guys that do that
and take those calculated risks, the coaches eventually understand he's
going to make more of them than he's not, and
we got to live with that.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So I think guys like him have that understanding of
the defense, have the understanding of what's going on, but
they also trust themselves and trusted inate ability within within
themselves to just get to the football.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
You did some college games this year, and you know,
one of the things we now see in college football
that you know, Luke's and I have been covering for years,
with all the player movement and the transfer portal, you
can't really get too complex with your schemes. How does
that impact the prospects who are now moving into far
more complex schemes and defenses.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, I think it's a learning curve, and certainly for me,
when I got to Carolina, it was a learning curve
and it was a lot. You know. When I was
in college, I was kind of just say line up,
like kind of here and like this is where we
need you to get to. Versus when I got to Carolina,
I remember lining up up in doing run fits on
trash cans. So we set up trash cans like they're
the offense. We get lined up, and then we got
(23:06):
to fit the run. I have no idea like why
I'm supposed to be aligned here? Why that makes sense?
Why where's my run gap? Technically?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
How important is the why?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I think for me it was huge because if you're
like Luke, you're in the A gap, then then then
it's just pure memorization Versus if it's hey, Luke, you're
in the A gap. You look to the right, it's
Thomas Davis, and you look to the left and it's
John Beeson. There's there's four run gaps, so say what's
say a B gap? Would just say there's three of them,
(23:38):
a B gap, an A gap, and then an outside
D gap. How do you guys fit those three gaps?
So obviously, if you're in the inside, you've got the
inside of the three gaps. If you're lined up on
the outside, you're the outside of the three gaps. So
for me, it's like, all right, I got a B
gap and A gap and a D gap. All right,
Thomas is here, Bast is here. If I just use
my brain, I'd probably have the A gap. So like
(24:00):
the why for me? It took a while, but I understood,
all right, if I'm on the outside Sales playing outside linebacker,
and it's me, Beas and Thomas, all right, we saw
the same gaps, B gap, A gap, D gap. All right, Well,
Beast is in the A gap, so I'm obviously not
in the A gap. Thomas is in the D gap.
I'm obviously not there. What's the only one that's left
the B gap. So I think it's going to be
a learning curve for all these guys. Yeah, they bounce
(24:22):
around a lot. Maybe you could say it's good because
they learn different systems, But there'll be a learning curve
for all these guys. And that's the job of the coaches,
is to help these guys understand why they're doing things
and why it's important to do it that way.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
You know, with the spread offense and how it's kind
of impacted the National Football League now in terms of
spreading you thin, putting you out in space. Now you've
got some of these undersized linebackers or guys are a
little bit lighter because they have to play in the
open field. But then all of a sudden, you start condensing,
you start running at those guys. And Anisa and I
were talking about, you know, kind of how Philadelphia is
(24:56):
constructed now, and it's kind of coming back full circle. Well,
if they can run and they're in space, what are
they going to do if we put them into a
phone booth? From a linebacker perspective, are we going to
start to see the return of the thumper, the guy
that can plug, stack and shed and just be a
guy at the point of attack. That's going to be
(25:17):
a problem.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I think you guys have kind of nailed it. You
look at the NFL, you know, and I came in.
It was bigger guys, physical, you know, Xender, Ray Lewis
and Erlacker, Patrick Lewis, Navarro Bowman. We're out in San Francisco.
And then as my career progressed, it kind of went
more to that. Like you said, spread them out. Tight
ends got smaller, they threw the ball more, and then
(25:39):
as defenses get smaller, they match up better than the offense.
Have to make the decision what are we going to do?
And now it's starting to kind of come back around.
You look at Baltimore. If you look at Baltimore, you
look at Philly, you look at all these Shanahan systems
that want to run the football. They just do a
good job. So for me, it's I think you got
to find a way to find guys that can cover,
(26:02):
because they're still going to put, you know, a little
fast guy at the number three spot and say, hey,
matchup on the mic backer. But I think what you
have to do as a defensive coordinator is say, hey,
what do we have. What are we working with? Hey,
do we have big physical guys that can do everything.
There's not a lot of them out there. Or do
we have maybe we have a big physical guy that
plays in the run game, but he lacks in the
past game. How do we protect him? Or do you
(26:24):
have a guy that's maybe a little bit smaller in
the run game but plays one in the pass. You
have to be okay with saying that if we have
one of these small guys that's active, that can run
around as a run and chase guy covers really well,
how do we protect him in the run game. You
can't ask a guy to do something because it fits
your system when you know he can't do it. So
that's the that's the job I think of the coaches
(26:46):
to say, what do our pieces look like, how do
they fit within our system? And how do we protect them?
And so, Yeah, I don't think it matters. There's not
one size fits all in the NFL. Yeah, you'd love
to have Roquan and Levante and Bobby Wagner and guy
fred warn nice. Yeah, yeah, they're just they're not out there.
So how do we get by with what we have?
How do we set up the defense so it benefits
(27:07):
them and allows them to showcase their strengths. I think
that's that's what good coaches are able to do. Well, Look,
you know you hit on a couple of guys. We
talked a little Jalen Walker Schwessinger from UCLA. What about
Demitrius Knight, Yeah, South Carolina. I know you've watched him
a little bit too. Well, He's he's got great size.
He's got great size. Played in the SEC. He's one
of the rare guys that ran out of the top
(27:29):
three or four guys. Swetzeran didn't run, Jalen Walker didn't run.
He ran like four or five eight plenty fast, big, strong, physical.
Those are the type of guys that you like looking at.
He's got all the tools physically. He played in the SEC,
big time college football. And then again, the biggest thing
I think you got to figure out is what's his
personality like? Is he a number one? Is he a
(27:50):
number two? Is he a thumper? Is he physical? How
fast is he process? Does he make impact plays going
down a hill at the line of scrimmage? And the
one thing that's good for all these guys that are
going to cut men say we drafted guys Josie. The
pressure is not on you to be the dude, right,
Josie's gonna have a dot. Josie's been around, He's been
in the system a long time, dating back to when
(28:11):
Azuero was in Denver. So these guys can come in
and just learn. And that's that's part of the job
of Josie as the older guy. They're gonna bring a
guy in right, maybe in a year or two, he
supplants you in some form of fashion, but Josie's competitor
probably won't let that happen. But it's it's the job
of the coaches, obviously, but as an older guy. Now
Josie is an older guy, it's his responsibility to come
(28:33):
in and help these guys. So there's a couple guys,
and I think Demetrius Knight is one of those guys
that come in that checks a lot of boxes for us,
and then how what does he pick our system up
and go play?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Another guy, Jihad Campbell Alabama, great size as well. Interesting
evolution with him too, because he started off as really
a special teams Venale wasn't an every down guy, then
developed into that. So if you're looking at mid to
late round and at at the linebacker spot or you know,
round three or beyond, how much does teams come into play.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think it's huge. I think when you draft the
guy you know, third through his six seventh round, it
gives those guys an opportunity to have an impact on
the team and develop at the same time time. Yeah,
so they don't just come in and get pushed to
the curb and you get some reps in training camp
and the OTAs, and then once the regular season starts,
you don't play on teams and all you do is practice.
You're the look squad. Yeah, so only work you really
(29:25):
get is an individual period and a little bit on
the look squad. But guys that can come in and
have an impact on teams, then they get real action.
They get in there, they get to feel the game,
and then as time progresses, if they're smart, they start
to add they start to add value as an on
the ball linebacker. Very similar to what we got with
Aj Klin back in twenty thirteen. We drafted him out
(29:47):
of Biowa State. He had all the tools, he had
everything right, and it was Chase Blackburn, Thomas and I,
so there wasn't a ton of room. But Aj was
a monster on special teams and probably could have started
on a majority of the teams in the NFL. But
we were in a good shape at linebacker. And then
as time went on AJ's second year, now he was
playing a lot more. He played all three linebacker spots,
(30:08):
but still super effective on special team So he was
a great luxury for us. And then ultimately Aj played
ten years, started a ton of games, but it was
exactly what you said. I think aj might have been
a fifth round pick. Brought him in, played a ton
on special teams, learned a lot, very smart, and then
when his opportunity got caught, he played extremely well.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
The last piece of this, Luke, is, you know the
interconnectivity on defense. So we saw this year that having
a beat up, injured, depleted front that impacts the back
end of the defense. So looking at the front seven holistically,
where yes, it's an area to improve and to upgrade
(30:48):
from your position and your experience playing inside linebacker. Explain
how you know that group right there? You know kind
of fits and plays off of what happens. Oh right,
that's of line.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So I think you know you look at my career right.
My rookie year, we brought a guy in at the
end of training camp called his name was Dwan Edwards.
Veteran guy played in Buffalo and then in Baltimore. Really
good player, great dude, great dude, he's the best dude ever.
But he could play three technique. He play shade, super unselfish. Right,
(31:21):
So my rookie year I got to deal with him.
He was great. And then my second year we drafted
star Letulale in the first round. He somehow fell to fifteen.
He had like a heart issue that was misdiagnosed. With
the combines, it was awesome. And then we drafted Kwan
Short in the second round and they built this these
three guys in front of us that were just monsters, big, physical,
(31:43):
They were all a little bit different and they made
our life really easy. That I mean, it's super easy.
They got to block those big guys first before they
get up to us.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
So if it's a double team and you slip and
those guys slip off a double team, the double team
falls apart. To get up to the second level starring
k Care just mall guys in the back field and
Thomas and I have no work right, which is phenomenal
versus you know, last year, Derek Brown gets hurt and
we're just banged, just banged up. And when that, when
that front level is getting moved and they're getting pushed
(32:12):
into your lap, life gets really hard. So you know,
you look at us on the front last year was
not what we wanted, right, But if you look at it,
you know, Jadavian showed up, played well. When when Wanham
came back phenomenal, phenomenal. Ashawn Robinson played really well. And
then and then Derek Brown like, Derek Brown's a first
(32:34):
round He's a top five pick. If Derek Brown's coming out,
this year's top five pick. Right, we get him back
for nothing. He's on our team, which is great. So
now you trot out to start the season healthy, Jadeveon healthy,
wantam A, Shawn's healthy, he's back. Derek Brown like, now
you got some dudes, and then now you're gonna go.
Maybe you pick a guy up in free agencies. Some
guys have gotten cut. Then where does that put you
(32:54):
for the draft? Mason Graham. We talked about the other guy,
Walter Nolan. I think he's a Mississippi State guy, miss
ol miss Just big, physical, active, slippery. So now you
go from No. One to if I'm playing linebacker and
it's Jadevian Clowney, dj wantam Ayshaun Robinson number ninety five,
(33:16):
Thank god he's back. And then one of these dudes
we just talked about, you're like, okay, like all right,
we got some dudes. Now get some people off. And
it's amazing how quickly that can happen. You look at
Philly Philly was phenomenal this year on defense. Last year
they're terrible. Right, they had some pieces, they get some
dudes grown up, they draft some guys. Boom, Now they're unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
So, yeah, we were bad. We were bad last year
on defense. There was a lot of reasons why we
were bad. Injuries, lack of depth. We weren't very good upfront.
But now you start to kind of look at our team,
we're we're in way better shape.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Yeah, and again I think part of that you got
to remember Dan Morgan's calculus a year ago was we
got to invest some resources into the offense to find
out what you have in Bryce Young. And by season's end,
I think we were all pretty satisfied with what we
saw on Bryce Young and what we have in Bryce Young.
So defensively, you were banking on health. You didn't get that.
(34:13):
Now you turn to your depth, you didn't have that either.
That was sort of the gamble. Now you're again, you're
two into this process with this regime. You got the draft,
you got free agency to address those needs on defense,
and yeah, I don't think it's going to be a
surprise to anybody. The front seven, much like the offensive
line a year ago. The front seven is getting addressed.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, and you know, you look at the front seven
from our guys on offense last year we were Brycecott
was it fifty two or sixty two.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Times at sixty plus his rookie year.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
So sixty whatever, it was a lot and then they
go pay those two big guards. Those guys are monsters,
Taylor Moten and Iki. Iki had a lot better year
last year. And then the question mark has always been
what are we doing at center? Sign Corbett back and
then signed k maysback, So two guys that we were
very happy with how they played, and now we'll have
a good battle inside at that center spot. I think
(35:02):
Austin Korbet coming back is just a solid foundation to
that offensive line.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I think that gives you some depth and protection to
a guard.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, it just it just helps. Like you said, swing move.
We're in obviously got those guys taken care of. Now
we can just just go do some stuff on defense
a little bit. See how he smiled defensive guy. I
don't get.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
The great Luke Kickley.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Thanks Luke, ladies and gentlemen. The weekend.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Close to the episode.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Caught by feeling touchdown
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Carolina Weekend Warriors Drab Special
Ladies and Gentlemen. The Weekend close to the episode.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Pop by Dylan Touchdown.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Carolina Weekend Warriors Draft Special.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
The Weekend Warriors Draft Special is brought to you by
bud Light. No easier way to enjoy your Sunday. Bud
Light is the official beer of the NFL and a
proud partner of the Carolina Panthers. It is time for
the Linebackers episode. As we lead you into the NFL Draft,
We're gonna have the greatest Panther linebacker, maybe the greatest
(00:40):
Panther of all time. Luke Keithley join us later in
the show Boy. If we get a linebacker who thinks
and plays like Luke, we're in really good shape. Yeah,
but we're also going to hit a couple of guys
that we did not hit in the episode where we
talk about edge rushers and defensive line guys like Jalen Walker,
guys like Mickel Williams, guys who can fit multiple roles
(01:02):
in a defense, and a shroff Tom Lougan Bill with
the Tom's at ESPN analyst covers college football National director
of Recruiting, so he has seen a lot of these
prospects from the time that they were in high school.
Panthers pick eighth. Overall, the prevailing sentiment is they're gonna
(01:23):
go defense. They need help on the front seven. So
let's start with a guy whose name has been associated
with Carolina and that eighth pick, and that's Jalen Walker
at Georgia. He seems to be are just a really
good scheme fit in a three to four defense, doesn't.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
He Well not when you say scheme fit, it's the
scheme versatility in the sense of playing off the ball,
playing on the ball, playing wide on the ball. To me,
a guy like him is he's a chess piece and
you could place him here, placing there, and find out
(02:00):
where he's located and identify him every time you come
to the line of scrimmage. And I think those guys
put so much pressure on you offensively. And now with
the way defenses have started to play, you know, we
don't have traditional quote unquote defensive end ye where we
now kind of call him edges and they may not
(02:21):
have their hand on the ground, and sometimes they do
have their hand on the ground. But I think he's
the most well rounded of the group that's out there
on the draft boards.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And oh, by the way from Salisbury, North Carolina native,
so that's a homecoming. Yeah. The other guy who has
drawn comparisons to a former Panther and a pretty good one,
Mickel Williams has drawn Frankie Luvu comparisons as another guy
that you can kind of move around the field. He
can come after the quarterback, he can fit the run.
(02:54):
You're comfortable leaving him in coverage and again in a
three four defense where so much of it is based
on disguising what you want to do. You talk about
a chess piece, that's another chess piece.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
It's another chess piece. And I think the question with
Michael Williams is how far has he come since his
true freshman year and is the productivity there to the
level it should be when you consider he was a
starter as a true freshman.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Really, I mean it's like everybody.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I think at the time, I remember going, WHOA, Okay,
this guy's going to be a real handful. But then
did he end up turning into what Abdul Carter has
turned into, or even Jalen as you mentioned, has turned
into an answers Probably no. So now you start asking more.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Questions and with him again, he's a Georgia guy and
recency biases at play. But you just watched what Philly did.
All those Georgia guys on defense they want a Super Bowl.
Is there something to be said about the pedigree of
that program and the defensive players that they've produced under
(04:00):
Kirby Smart.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I think that there is a standard and an expectation
that you have to meet to get on the field
at the University of Georgia, and everybody knows it because
competition is not motivated by the coaches. It's motivated by
the personnel, meaning that if I don't play well.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
There's a five star waiting behind you.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
He's right to my left and he's right to my right,
so that you know. And Bobby Knight used to say,
the single greatest motivator is your ass on the bench right.
And so I think that when you come into pro
football out of programs like that where there has been
such a high level of performance standard, that those guys
are more ready because they're less surprised by anything that
(04:39):
may come their way.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
A couple other guys to hit on. Let's keep it
in the sec. Johad Campbell stud.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Stud I really like him and he is he's almost
an inside guy. I mean, he's big, and he's physical,
and he can run terrific at the point of attack.
I've actually been a little bit surprised that, not that
he's not being talked about, but you know, a lot
of the focus has been on Jalen Walker and some
(05:09):
of the other guys at the position. I just think
that he's got some stuff. And again, same type of
thing that pedigree you mentioned of meeting a standard in
the expectation to perform consistently at a championship level. And
you know the other thing too, and with with Jihad Campbell,
is that defense and whether you want to take it
(05:31):
back to Bill Belichick, Nicksabe and now Kirby Smart and
all the different branches that have come off of that tree.
You can't be a dumb football player and perform well
in that defense. You have to have a high football IQ.
You have to be able to process quickly, and you
have to be able to communicate. And when that is
something that you can prove you can do and do
(05:52):
it at a high level, the learning curve is much
less steep. When you move on to the National Football League, we.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Start looking at guys like a Campbell who's a borderline
first second round pick most likely, and then you know
you get later in the draft. The Panthers seem to
have found a promising one and Trevin Wallace, a year
ago third rounder out of Kentucky, was thrown into the fire.
But I'll give you a name, a guy that I
saw at Oklahoma, and uh, you know, it's easy to
(06:23):
go Bosworth with Danny. Stan kind of has the hair, Yeah,
has the personality, but he's a hair on fire type
of player.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
He actually, to be honest with you, he if you
look at him and you just watch and you see him,
you kind of think of Luke right Like there's there's
some similarity. The tough, rugged always kind of has a
nose for the ball, no was where to go? Uh,
doesn't take false steps. I think he studies the game,
(06:56):
all of those, especially a linebacker. I mean, if if
you're not in tune with what's happening in front of
you and knowing the game, you're not gonna maximize your production.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
The running joke has been the Panthers have never drafted
a player out of Clemson. What about a Barrett Carter
who you saw covering the acc quite a bit.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
This year, didn't have the year this pass fall that
he had had the previous two seasons. I just think
he's a really good football player, like well rounded, you
know exactly what you're gonna get. You're gonna have no
issues with him, A pros pro, a lot of pride
in his game. He can rush the passer. I think
that's really really important, and I think he'll be an
(07:37):
unbelievable teams guy.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Cody Simon is somebody we saw at Ohio State. Again
loaded defense. There's a lot of playmakers on that defense
and maybe doesn't always get the attention as JTT or
a Jack Sawyer up front, but again, watching him in
that college football playoff always seemed to be right place,
right time.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
He Carson Swesten at UCLA and Jack Kaiser at Notre
Dame are all kind of in that same boat, right You.
What you see is what you get. Good production, solid
football player. May not be elite in any one area,
but just good, good player. And you know, I think
(08:18):
that sometimes it's not a bad thing to get overlooked
because of the other players around you, because the next
thing you know, people start digging in on the tape
more on you. As a result, right, and that can
I mean, could it hurt you?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think in most cases it benefits you. I'm gonna
throw one more name out there. And this was the
guy that, uh this saw a little bit at Oklahoma State.
He was hurt this past season, one hundred and forty
tackles the year before. You know where I'm going with this,
Nick Martin, Yeah, flew around the field. Smaller guy right,
doesn't have the prototypical size closer to two twenty I
(08:55):
would imagine would have to throw on a little bit
of weight. But when he is healthy, the production was
off the charts. And yeah, to me, that position middle linebacker,
especially in a three four, if the guys up front
are doing their job, you have opportunities to make tackles.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
There's no question like that that that's it.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Right, Seaball, get ball, I think, And you're right. You know, listen,
he's an inch. He's about an inch and a half
taller than Zach Thomas. So when you look at a
guy like Zach Thomas and you look at a guy
like Nick Martin, you're saying, Okay, what is the end result?
I don't care who when you when you put forth
one hundred and forty tackles. That's not just happening on ability.
(09:40):
To me, that's happening on aptitude, meaning you're studying beforehand,
you're prepared, and you know where the ball is going
and then you know how to get there. Like all
of those things, I think I think there's some inherent
traits there on high tackle guys that it's not just ability.
There's something else going on.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, I mean, we're gonna hear from Luke in a
little bit well, prime example, prime example. And Luke was
a notorious film study, great instincts. Yep, knew where the
ball was going before it was snapped.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
I mean, just think about all the NFL film stuff
with him where he's calling out where everything's going on
defense exactly right. And but again that doesn't come from
physical attributes necessarily.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So do you look at that position in a lot
of ways the way you would look at, you know,
evaluating a quarterback where because so much happens before the
ball snapped, I think we lose sight of that sometimes, right,
Like a great quarterback when you talk to him and
you know you've said this to me too. As somebody
who's played the position, you kind of need to know
(10:48):
the menu before the ball's in your hand.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, and it's it's the same
on defense. I mean, think about every down in distance,
personnel groupings, strength of the formation and all and then
then the shifts, the motions, all of those things are
and they're all happening before the balls even snapped, and
they're all being employed to try to get you, as
(11:12):
a defensive player, to take one false step to bring
your eyes from here to there when they're not supposed
to go over there. Right, Do you have the discipline
to not do that stuff? And your coach is talking
about eye violations and wrong fits and all of that stuff.
That stuff happens when you're not disciplining, you're not prepared.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We get enamored right with with arm strength and you know,
all this stuff sometimes with the quarterbacks, and then it's
the above the shoulders, the processing. I mean Tom Brady
coming out of college arm strength was a negative. Yeah,
people said that about Bryce Young too, where average arm
strength and then you kind of saw it in the
second season his ability to process and read a defense.
(11:51):
Peyton Manning was never a big armed guy when you
was Ryan Leif.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
You look at that draft right and you if you'd
have asked any one of the thirty two gms at
that time, who's the most physically gifted amongst Ryan Leaf
and Peyton man not one of them would have said
Peyton Manning, not one of them. But then from the
neck up and all of the other things, then it
was the complete opposite.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
So is that the evaluation then for an inside linebacker?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I think so, I listen. I think there's a lot
of guys that are gonna be big enough, fast enough,
strong enough. But we've talked obviously on this podcast about
do you love the game? The most important question you've
got to get an answer to and an honest answer
to when you're investigating these guys. But aptitude and processing
(12:43):
at that position in the middle of the field, outside
of the quarterback position and maybe the offensive center, it's
as important as any position.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
All Right, We're going to talk to a guy who
was as good as anyone at that Luke Keikley. In
just a moment, we remind you. The weekend Warriors Draft
Special is brought to you by Buddy Light. No easier
way to enjoy your Sunday. Bud Light is the official
beer of the NFL and a proud partner of the
Carolina Panthers. We love celebrating our fans, and so does
(13:12):
bud Light. We are teaming up to give one of
our lucky listeners the ultimate tailgating prize pack. Ready for
this the Panthers and bud Light Tintacker behind us. That's
that big sign right there.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I don't take it first.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
It's going to be paired with co branded merch fit
for any Panthers fan. Use the link in our podcast
description to enter for your chance to win. You only
get to enter once. The grand prize winner will be
announced during the Panthers Draft Show airing on Day one
of the Draft, which is April twenty fourth. You don't
want to miss it. Entrance must be twenty one years
(13:48):
or older to participate and be eligible. You know him
as a Panther legend. A former Boston College Eagle, former
ninth overall pick in two thousand in twelve, played in
Super Bowl fifty seven time Pro Bowler, five time First
Team All Pro, Defensive Player of the Year, Defensive Rookie
(14:08):
of the Year, future Hall of Famer. Area is Luke Keigley. Welcome, Luke.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
It's good. It's good to be here. I come up
to this room a lot, and he said a lot
of nice things about me. So maybe they'll come back
more often.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Well, you know, and I may have to stop. So
I got run out of the run out of paper.
We're running out of paper. Once he gets the gold jacket,
that list gets even longer. But listen, we've been talking
about linebackers on the show. We want to get into
some edge guys. But before we get into any of that,
I mean, you know, we're sitting here on Sunday, we're
watching the games, and one thing that was painfully obvious
(14:42):
at times last year Panthers really just didn't have any
depth at that position. And now Shaq Thompson is gone.
You got Josie Jewel, Trevin Wallace, and then kind of
a bunch of question marks.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, I think you look at kind of going into
the season last year, you felt good about Shack and
then Josie offseason edition felt good about them, and then
you draft Trevin, who Dan really likes, size, speed, athletic ability, physical,
and then Shack goes down early in the season, Josie
gets banged up, Trevin gets thrown in, Trevin played well
in spots, and then Trevin gets hurt, and then before
(15:14):
you know it, we're looking at the roster on Sundays
and you, Jake and I are thinking like where did
this guy? Where did this guy come from? So, you know,
going into the offseason, Trevin obviously had the shoulder surgery,
so he's gonna be coming off that year.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Two.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
The best thing I think that we have about our
team going into this offseason into next season is everything's
the same. Obviously, Dave's back, Canalis is back for Bryce,
and then on the defensive side of the ball, it's
no longer a new system for anybody on the defense.
Obviously offseason additions, you know, draft the guys, it will
be new for them, But for our guys it's exactly
the same, which is great, so Trevin won't have to relearn.
(15:50):
But with that being said, I think Josie's our guy.
Obviously we know he's going to play a lot this year.
And then what do we get from Trevin. How's his
offseason going, how's his recovery doing, how does he show
up in OTAs it's gonna be, I think with it
goes without being said, We're going to pick up some
pieces on the defense side of the ball, especially off
the ball linebackers. So how does he fit into that mix?
Where does he belong, how does he compete? How does
(16:11):
he take that challenge? I think he'll do a really
good job with it. But I think here free agency
obviously started than the draft in April. Answer a lot
of questions.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
You know, you talk about the linebacker position, and if
the Panthers are sitting there at eight, and let's just
say they don't trade down to get other picks, but
you've got a difference maker or let's just say in
the defensive front, Yeah, that's available on the board, where
would you lean and why?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I think at that eight spot, the one guy that
gets thrown around a lot is Jalen Walker, the kid
from Georgia. He's off the ball, he's on the ball,
he can rush. Obviously played at a big time system
at Georgia, so I think he's the really only guy
that would play off the ball that you could draft
an eight. There's a couple other guys that we'll get
to in a little bit that are really good players,
but at eight, I don't know. But then there's names
(16:56):
that are getting thrown right. I think Abdul Carter's gone right,
Mason Graham, the kid from George, kid from Michigan, would
be a really solid piece. Obviously, Ashawn Derek Brown, and
then you add Mason Graham, he's a problem. You'd feel
really good about it. I think there's a couple other guys,
but the dudes that I think about at eight are
Mason Graham, Jalen Walker. Obviously, Abdul Carter's going to be gone.
He's fun to watch. But in my opinion, if you're
(17:19):
going to go up front or if you're going to
go linebacker, those are the kind of guys that I'm
thinking about right now.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And when you look at the history of this franchise
and you're a part of it, to me, the glamour
position in the thirty year history of the Carolina Panthers,
it's been middle linebacker, whether it was you or Sam
Mills or John Beeson, whoever had been in there, Dan
Morgan right Shaq Thompson up until recently, that has been
kind of the position. You played it as well as anybody.
(17:46):
When you kind of look at inside linebacker, take away
the athleticism for a moment, just from shoulders up, what
are you looking for?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think the biggest thing with these guys is how
will they process? How well can you process what's going
on in front of you when the ball gets snapped.
I think there's a lot of guys. When you get
him on the board and you talk to him like, hey,
you know wou's say Carson Sweessingering or the kid from UCLA.
You can put him on a board, you can have
him draw everything up. You can talk about gap exchange,
(18:17):
you can talk about run fits, you can talk about
where guys go and say a guard pools, where's your
next available gap? All these guys can probably do that,
So that part, to me, the intelligence side is a
different conversation. All these guys know what they're doing, but
when the ball gets snapped, how quickly can they go guardpool?
I'm a B gap player now I'm an a gap player.
But what happens when you know it's it's it's a
(18:40):
front side zone play and they and they bring the
center around it's called a wipe scheme. What happens when
they bring him around? How quickly can he diagnose, process
and then ultimately get where he needs to get to.
I think that's the biggest thing for me with these guys.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
How can you find that out?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think you watch him on tape and how quickly
do they react. I think you know, you watch guys
on tape and you wonder, like, why is it he
going there? And then you go talk to him and
it's not that he doesn't know what he's doing, it's
just he can't get there fast enough. So when you
watch guys, I think the ones that are really special,
the guys that have all the athletic ability, and then
(19:16):
when the ball gets snap, he sees the guard pool,
he knows exactly where he's going, he gets there, and
then he can win. I mean, on defense, one guy
is designated to block you on that play. You know,
as an inside backer, it's a guard to center, sometimes
a tackle, but primarily a guard in the center. If
you understand who's supposed to block you where they're trying
to get to what gap you have and then the
(19:37):
ball cans snap boom, guard pools. I go from the
backside B gap to a front side A gap. If
it's a power play with the guard pool, I know
it's the guard in the center double teaming the three
technique up to me. I got to get in the
A gap right now. The guard's gonna come off. If
you know that, now you can play ahead of the
play that guy pulls. Boom, I got to beat the guard.
If I set him up here, boom, I can push
the inside a gap and get to the football. I
(19:59):
think the guys that are really good have the ability
to do all of that. Once the ball gets snapped.
Half of it's can you get lined up? You know
where you got to be? Then the second part is
when the ball gets snapped, I need to get there
right now.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
So we were having a conversation just prior to you
walking in here, Luke, and we brought up Nick Martin
at Oklahoma State. Yeah, undersized guy one hundred and forty tackles, right,
that doesn't happen on athleticism alone. And to your point
of aptitude, diagnosing, processing and boom boom boom, And it's
just becoming second nature when that occurs. How much does
(20:34):
that do to sheer preparation or maybe a god given
instinct that you can't coach, or combination.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I think it's a combination. I think certain guys have
better instincts than other guys, right, but I think that
you can if you don't have great instincts. The more
you prepare, the better you are. And then I think
it goes the same thing with you know, if you
do have instincts, the more you watch, the more you
absorb it just takes it to a different leve level.
So I think, you know, when you think about instincts,
(21:03):
it's feel. It's just peripheral feel. It's understanding what offenses
are trying to do, how you fit within your defense.
And I think when you really think about instincts, it's like,
all right, sometimes I have to get over a block,
but can I slip it and get there? The guys
that understand how to take calculated risks, the guys that
understand how to get to a point of attack when
(21:24):
they have a bad angle, those are the guys that
kind of bend the rules of football a little bit
and can just get there, yeah, more efficiently than other guys.
There's certain guys that play like robots and maybe I
have to get over the top of a block, and
they just that's what the book says. I'm going to
go play by the book, And yes, you're doing what
you've been coached to do, but you're not making a
play on the football. The guys that have instincts understand
(21:47):
that boom. I've seen this play before on tape. I
can feel it. I understand what's going on. This is
where the offensive lineman is, he's at a phase of
the running back. I can shoot that gap and go underneath.
Technically watching tape, I'm wrong, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
The rule is always you better get there.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And if the guys that the guys that do that
and take those calculated risks, the coaches eventually understand he's
going to make more of them than he's not, and
we got to live with that.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So I think guys like him have that understanding of
the defense, have the understanding of what's going on, but
they also trust themselves and trusted inate ability within within
themselves to just get to the football.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
You did some college games this year, and you know,
one of the things we now see in college football
that you know, Luke's and I have been covering for years,
with all the player movement and the transfer portal, you
can't really get too complex with your schemes. How does
that impact the prospects who are now moving into far
more complex schemes and defenses.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, I think it's a learning curve, and certainly for me,
when I got to Carolina, it was a learning curve
and it was a lot. You know. When I was
in college, I was kind of just say line up,
like kind of here and like this is where we
need you to get to. Versus when I got to Carolina,
I remember lining up up in doing run fits on
trash cans. So we set up trash cans like they're
the offense. We get lined up, and then we got
(23:06):
to fit the run. I have no idea like why
I'm supposed to be aligned here? Why that makes sense?
Why where's my run gap? Technically?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
How important is the why?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I think for me it was huge because if you're
like Luke, you're in the A gap, then then then
it's just pure memorization Versus if it's hey, Luke, you're
in the A gap. You look to the right, it's
Thomas Davis, and you look to the left and it's
John Beeson. There's there's four run gaps, so say what's
say a B gap? Would just say there's three of them,
(23:38):
a B gap, an A gap, and then an outside
D gap. How do you guys fit those three gaps?
So obviously, if you're in the inside, you've got the
inside of the three gaps. If you're lined up on
the outside, you're the outside of the three gaps. So
for me, it's like, all right, I got a B
gap and A gap and a D gap. All right,
Thomas is here, Bast is here. If I just use
my brain, I'd probably have the A gap. So like
(24:00):
the why for me? It took a while, but I understood,
all right, if I'm on the outside Sales playing outside linebacker,
and it's me, Beas and Thomas, all right, we saw
the same gaps, B gap, A gap, D gap. All right, Well,
Beast is in the A gap, so I'm obviously not
in the A gap. Thomas is in the D gap.
I'm obviously not there. What's the only one that's left
the B gap. So I think it's going to be
a learning curve for all these guys. Yeah, they bounce
(24:22):
around a lot. Maybe you could say it's good because
they learn different systems, But there'll be a learning curve
for all these guys. And that's the job of the coaches,
is to help these guys understand why they're doing things
and why it's important to do it that way.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
You know, with the spread offense and how it's kind
of impacted the National Football League now in terms of
spreading you thin, putting you out in space. Now you've
got some of these undersized linebackers or guys are a
little bit lighter because they have to play in the
open field. But then all of a sudden, you start condensing,
you start running at those guys. And Anisa and I
were talking about, you know, kind of how Philadelphia is
(24:56):
constructed now, and it's kind of coming back full circle. Well,
if they can run and they're in space, what are
they going to do if we put them into a
phone booth? From a linebacker perspective, are we going to
start to see the return of the thumper, the guy
that can plug, stack and shed and just be a
guy at the point of attack. That's going to be
(25:17):
a problem.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I think you guys have kind of nailed it. You
look at the NFL, you know, and I came in.
It was bigger guys, physical, you know, Xender, Ray Lewis
and Erlacker, Patrick Lewis, Navarro Bowman. We're out in San Francisco.
And then as my career progressed, it kind of went
more to that. Like you said, spread them out. Tight
ends got smaller, they threw the ball more, and then
(25:39):
as defenses get smaller, they match up better than the offense.
Have to make the decision what are we going to do?
And now it's starting to kind of come back around.
You look at Baltimore. If you look at Baltimore, you
look at Philly, you look at all these Shanahan systems
that want to run the football. They just do a
good job. So for me, it's I think you got
to find a way to find guys that can cover,
(26:02):
because they're still going to put, you know, a little
fast guy at the number three spot and say, hey,
matchup on the mic backer. But I think what you
have to do as a defensive coordinator is say, hey,
what do we have. What are we working with? Hey,
do we have big physical guys that can do everything.
There's not a lot of them out there. Or do
we have maybe we have a big physical guy that
plays in the run game, but he lacks in the
past game. How do we protect him? Or do you
(26:24):
have a guy that's maybe a little bit smaller in
the run game but plays one in the pass. You
have to be okay with saying that if we have
one of these small guys that's active, that can run
around as a run and chase guy covers really well,
how do we protect him in the run game. You
can't ask a guy to do something because it fits
your system when you know he can't do it. So
that's the that's the job I think of the coaches
(26:46):
to say, what do our pieces look like, how do
they fit within our system? And how do we protect them?
And so, Yeah, I don't think it matters. There's not
one size fits all in the NFL. Yeah, you'd love
to have Roquan and Levante and Bobby Wagner and guy
fred warn nice. Yeah, yeah, they're just they're not out there.
So how do we get by with what we have?
How do we set up the defense so it benefits
(27:07):
them and allows them to showcase their strengths. I think
that's that's what good coaches are able to do. Well, Look,
you know you hit on a couple of guys. We
talked a little Jalen Walker Schwessinger from UCLA. What about
Demitrius Knight, Yeah, South Carolina. I know you've watched him
a little bit too. Well, He's he's got great size.
He's got great size. Played in the SEC. He's one
of the rare guys that ran out of the top
(27:29):
three or four guys. Swetzeran didn't run, Jalen Walker didn't run.
He ran like four or five eight plenty fast, big, strong, physical.
Those are the type of guys that you like looking at.
He's got all the tools physically. He played in the SEC,
big time college football. And then again, the biggest thing
I think you got to figure out is what's his
personality like? Is he a number one? Is he a
(27:50):
number two? Is he a thumper? Is he physical? How
fast is he process? Does he make impact plays going
down a hill at the line of scrimmage? And the
one thing that's good for all these guys that are
going to cut men say we drafted guys Josie. The
pressure is not on you to be the dude, right,
Josie's gonna have a dot. Josie's been around, He's been
in the system a long time, dating back to when
(28:11):
Azuero was in Denver. So these guys can come in
and just learn. And that's that's part of the job
of Josie as the older guy. They're gonna bring a
guy in right, maybe in a year or two, he
supplants you in some form of fashion, but Josie's competitor
probably won't let that happen. But it's it's the job
of the coaches, obviously, but as an older guy. Now
Josie is an older guy, it's his responsibility to come
(28:33):
in and help these guys. So there's a couple guys,
and I think Demetrius Knight is one of those guys
that come in that checks a lot of boxes for us,
and then how what does he pick our system up
and go play?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Another guy, Jihad Campbell Alabama, great size as well. Interesting
evolution with him too, because he started off as really
a special teams Venale wasn't an every down guy, then
developed into that. So if you're looking at mid to
late round and at at the linebacker spot or you know,
round three or beyond, how much does teams come into play.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think it's huge. I think when you draft the
guy you know, third through his six seventh round, it
gives those guys an opportunity to have an impact on
the team and develop at the same time time. Yeah,
so they don't just come in and get pushed to
the curb and you get some reps in training camp
and the OTAs, and then once the regular season starts,
you don't play on teams and all you do is practice.
You're the look squad. Yeah, so only work you really
(29:25):
get is an individual period and a little bit on
the look squad. But guys that can come in and
have an impact on teams, then they get real action.
They get in there, they get to feel the game,
and then as time progresses, if they're smart, they start
to add they start to add value as an on
the ball linebacker. Very similar to what we got with
Aj Klin back in twenty thirteen. We drafted him out
(29:47):
of Biowa State. He had all the tools, he had
everything right, and it was Chase Blackburn, Thomas and I,
so there wasn't a ton of room. But Aj was
a monster on special teams and probably could have started
on a majority of the teams in the NFL. But
we were in a good shape at linebacker. And then
as time went on AJ's second year, now he was
playing a lot more. He played all three linebacker spots,
(30:08):
but still super effective on special team So he was
a great luxury for us. And then ultimately Aj played
ten years, started a ton of games, but it was
exactly what you said. I think aj might have been
a fifth round pick. Brought him in, played a ton
on special teams, learned a lot, very smart, and then
when his opportunity got caught, he played extremely well.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Awesome.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
The last piece of this, Luke, is, you know the
interconnectivity on defense. So we saw this year that having
a beat up, injured, depleted front that impacts the back
end of the defense. So looking at the front seven holistically,
where yes, it's an area to improve and to upgrade
(30:48):
from your position and your experience playing inside linebacker. Explain
how you know that group right there? You know kind
of fits and plays off of what happens. Oh right,
that's of line.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So I think you know you look at my career right.
My rookie year, we brought a guy in at the
end of training camp called his name was Dwan Edwards.
Veteran guy played in Buffalo and then in Baltimore. Really
good player, great dude, great dude, he's the best dude ever.
But he could play three technique. He play shade, super unselfish. Right,
(31:21):
So my rookie year I got to deal with him.
He was great. And then my second year we drafted
star Letulale in the first round. He somehow fell to fifteen.
He had like a heart issue that was misdiagnosed. With
the combines, it was awesome. And then we drafted Kwan
Short in the second round and they built this these
three guys in front of us that were just monsters, big, physical,
(31:43):
They were all a little bit different and they made
our life really easy. That I mean, it's super easy.
They got to block those big guys first before they
get up to us.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
So if it's a double team and you slip and
those guys slip off a double team, the double team
falls apart. To get up to the second level starring
k Care just mall guys in the back field and
Thomas and I have no work right, which is phenomenal
versus you know, last year, Derek Brown gets hurt and
we're just banged, just banged up. And when that, when
that front level is getting moved and they're getting pushed
(32:12):
into your lap, life gets really hard. So you know,
you look at us on the front last year was
not what we wanted, right, But if you look at it,
you know, Jadavian showed up, played well. When when Wanham
came back phenomenal, phenomenal. Ashawn Robinson played really well. And
then and then Derek Brown like, Derek Brown's a first
(32:34):
round He's a top five pick. If Derek Brown's coming out,
this year's top five pick. Right, we get him back
for nothing. He's on our team, which is great. So
now you trot out to start the season healthy, Jadeveon healthy,
wantam A, Shawn's healthy, he's back. Derek Brown like, now
you got some dudes, and then now you're gonna go.
Maybe you pick a guy up in free agencies. Some
guys have gotten cut. Then where does that put you
(32:54):
for the draft? Mason Graham. We talked about the other guy,
Walter Nolan. I think he's a Mississippi State guy, miss
ol miss Just big, physical, active, slippery. So now you
go from No. One to if I'm playing linebacker and
it's Jadevian Clowney, dj wantam Ayshaun Robinson number ninety five,
(33:16):
Thank god he's back. And then one of these dudes
we just talked about, you're like, okay, like all right,
we got some dudes. Now get some people off. And
it's amazing how quickly that can happen. You look at
Philly Philly was phenomenal this year on defense. Last year
they're terrible. Right, they had some pieces, they get some
dudes grown up, they draft some guys. Boom, Now they're unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
So, yeah, we were bad. We were bad last year
on defense. There was a lot of reasons why we
were bad. Injuries, lack of depth. We weren't very good upfront.
But now you start to kind of look at our team,
we're we're in way better shape.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Yeah, and again I think part of that you got
to remember Dan Morgan's calculus a year ago was we
got to invest some resources into the offense to find
out what you have in Bryce Young. And by season's end,
I think we were all pretty satisfied with what we
saw on Bryce Young and what we have in Bryce Young.
So defensively, you were banking on health. You didn't get that.
(34:13):
Now you turn to your depth, you didn't have that either.
That was sort of the gamble. Now you're again, you're
two into this process with this regime. You got the draft,
you got free agency to address those needs on defense,
and yeah, I don't think it's going to be a
surprise to anybody. The front seven, much like the offensive
line a year ago. The front seven is getting addressed.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, and you know, you look at the front seven
from our guys on offense last year we were Brycecott
was it fifty two or sixty two.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Times at sixty plus his rookie year.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
So sixty whatever, it was a lot and then they
go pay those two big guards. Those guys are monsters,
Taylor Moten and Iki. Iki had a lot better year
last year. And then the question mark has always been
what are we doing at center? Sign Corbett back and
then signed k maysback, So two guys that we were
very happy with how they played, and now we'll have
a good battle inside at that center spot. I think
(35:02):
Austin Korbet coming back is just a solid foundation to
that offensive line.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I think that gives you some depth and protection to
a guard.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, it just it just helps. Like you said, swing move.
We're in obviously got those guys taken care of. Now
we can just just go do some stuff on defense
a little bit. See how he smiled defensive guy. I
don't get.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
The great Luke Kickley.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Thanks Luke, ladies and gentlemen. The weekend.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Close to the episode.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Caught by feeling touchdown
Speaker 1 (35:38):
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