What Happened to That Guy? Chris Carr

The former cornerback spent three seasons in Baltimore (2009-2011) and is now an immigration lawyer arguing life and death cases in the courtroom.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Greetings and welcome to What Happened to That Guy? A
Ravens podcast about former players and life after football. I'm
your host, John Eisenberg. When I started down the road
of developing this podcast, I figured it would take me
to some interesting places. I never imagined one of those
places would be a federal immigration court in downtown Baltimore.

(00:29):
But there I was, on a recent weekday morning, sitting
in the back of a courtroom on the fourth floor
of the George Fallon Federal Building, located at thirty one
Hopkins Plaza, a few blocks from him and Team Bank Stadium.
The floor is a busy place with a bunch of courtrooms.
There's a waiting room where anxious families sit with their attorneys,

(00:51):
waiting for their cases to be called. The dockets are
filled with asylum cases, deportation cases, hearings about green cards visas.
The waiting room and hallways are crowded, really overcrowded. You
hear a lot of Spanish. Serious stuff unfolds in these courtrooms,

(01:11):
matters of life and death. I was therefore a dramatic
case typical for the fourth floor, but still dramatic, the
case of a woman who had fled gang violence in
El Salvador her home. A couple of years ago, a
powerful gang was recruiting her son, and he didn't want
to join. Fearing for their lives, the woman and her
son had fled to Mexico and eventually came to the

(01:32):
United States. Her husband was already here on a protected
status designation. The woman was seeking legal asylum in the
United States for herself and her son, contending that they'd
be killed if they had to go back. The hearing
was in a courtroom that was brightly lit and surprisingly small,
with just a few rows of benches for spectators. Posters

(01:53):
of scenes from America's national parks decorated the walls. Upfront,
dominating the room was large, raised, dark walnut desk where
the judge sat literally overseeing the proceedings. He wore a
flowing dark robe and was bald, with glasses perched low
on his nose, and he spoke in a smooth, commanding voice,

(02:15):
a voice suited for radio, honestly. Looming behind the judge
on the wall was a large circular seal United States
Department of Justice. In front of the judge, just like
on TV, were two desks, one for each side. In
the case. At one desk, the woman from El Salvador
sat with her attorney. At the other desk, sitting alone,

(02:35):
was a lawyer from the Department of Homeland Security, there
to challenge whether the woman deserved legal asylum. As the
hearing began, the lawyer defending the woman stood he was
a trim guy in a crisp dark suit, a little
under six feet tall. He explained to the judge why
a few spectators were sprinkled around the benches and back.

(02:55):
Several family members were there to support his client. The
lawyer said. Then he identified me yours truly, as a
journalist from the Baltimore Ravens that stop traffic. Baltimore Ravens.
Why are you here, the judge asked. Everyone in the
room turned and stared at me. Who was this strange creature?

(03:16):
I kind of stammered, Um, well, there's a Ravens connection
to this, I said. I was in fly on the
wall mode, not anxious to say much or attract attention. Fortunately,
the judge didn't keep asking questions. Okay, whatever, He shrugged.
So I know you're wondering, what was the Ravens connection. Well,

(03:37):
the lawyer defending the woman from El Salvador. The guy
in the crisp dark suit. It was Chris Carr. He
played cornerback for the Ravens, and not that long ago.
He came to Baltimore in two thousand and nine, John
Harbaugh's second year as head coach. He'd spent time with
the Oakland Raiders and Tennessee Titans before he arrived, and
he played good football in Baltimore. Started twenty one games

(03:58):
over three years, one hundred and eight tackles, intercepted, four passes,
forced five fumbles. Remember when the Ravens blasted the Patriots
in a playoff game in Foxborough in two thousand and nine,
Carr had a big interception in the first quarter to
help turn the tide light action Brady under pressure throws
over the middle, intercepted, Chris Carr has it twenty eight
yard line, heading to the far sideline, cuts back and

(04:21):
is down at the Patriot twenty five yard line as
the Ravens have forced a second turnover. Cars last year
in Baltimore was twenty eleven, and he went on to
play for two more teams, the San Diego Chargers and
New Orleans Saints, before calling it quits after nine years
in the NFL. That was in twenty thirteen, just six
years ago, and yet here he was wearing not a

(04:43):
football uniform but a blue suit, and not defending passes,
but defending a client in federal immigration court. I mean,
how did he get from there to hear so quickly?
Could the title of this podcast be any more appropriate?
What happened to that guy? Let me give you some background.

(05:06):
Chris Carr grew up in Reno, Nevada, and went to
Boise State for football. We had a long chat recently
before I went to see him do his thing in court.
I asked him when he knew he would become a lawyer.
So I knew that when I was twenty years old,
boys stay players really didn't make it to the NFL.
So my focus in college athletically was as good as
possible when it comes to my football skills. And at

(05:30):
that time, I really didn't know what I was going
to do after college. I had to attitude that if
I can play in the NFL, that'd be great, but
it kind of same that was a long shot. But
I took constitutional law my junior in college, and once
I was in that classroom with a professor and the
way he taught in the papers that we had to write.

(05:52):
That was the first time when I would get an
A on exam. I had a better feeling than I
had playing football. I knew from that point that I
wanted to be a lawyer, and there was never any
down in my mind. And once I got to my
senior year in college, I felt like I was hidden
up to play in the NFL. But it was one
of those things like are you gonna get the opportunity.
He did get the opportunity, and he got it the

(06:14):
hard way, making the Raiders roster as an undrafted rookie
in two thousand and five, and he wound up burning
an NFL paycheck for a lot longer than he envisioned.
By the time he retired, he was thirty years old,
married with a growing family, ready to start the next
chapter of his life. He'd in turned at a law
firm in Baltimore while he was with the Ravens, and

(06:35):
within a year of his last snap in the NFL,
he was enrolled at law school at George Washington University
in DC. Yeah, I went straight into it. I'm a
type of person. I like to be busy, I like
to do things and it was the new challenge, and
this is something that I've always wanted to do since
that was twenty years old. So you didn't miss football.
I always liked new things and new challenges, and so

(06:56):
it was just something that was just so fresh for
me and I enjoyed it. So there wasn't any seconds
that I ever felt like, oh, I wish I was
playing football. One of his first classes was immigration law.
One one day, the professor brought in a couple of
GW grads who started a small firm in northern Virginia
that specialized in immigration work. The firm was Zemon and Peterson.

(07:19):
And that's Rachel Peterson, one of the grads who spoke
to the class that day. Here's Rachel. We were there
to talk about what it's like being immigration lawyer and
having a small business in doing removable descents, which is
deportation proceedings and in asylum cases. And so we went
to that class in twenty fifteen, I believe, and Chris

(07:42):
happened to be in that class. I remember him from
the class because he asked one or two questions and
he just seemed really engaged. A lot of people are not,
you know, they're like be looking on their phones. They're
not really paying attention. And so I did remember him,
and he sent us an email after that asking if
we were taking interns for the summer, and so in

(08:06):
the summer of twenty sixteen he worked at our legal
intern I mean, I guess I should ask, are you
a football fan? No, I'm not. I had no idea,
no clue. He came in for an interview after he
emailed us, and maybe sure, I said something my business

(08:27):
partner about he might be a football player or something,
and I googled him and I said that he had
played professional football for a long time, but I did
not know that when we were first went to the class.
Did he strike you at all as like what you
would think of as a former football player. No. I
hate to kind of generalize people, but all you sort
of see is what's in the media or maybe on

(08:49):
a reality show or two. First of all, for a
professional football player to go to law school, don't think
it super comment. But then for once to be interested
in immigration, that was what was sciding. He was interested
in immigration. How did Chris become interested in immigration? Well,
he's always been an original thinker and a curious person,

(09:11):
A heavy reader, a big world traveler, not your stereotypical
tunnel vision self obsessed pro athlete by any means. When
he was with the Ravens, he drove an old clunker car,
not a fancy one, and he eventually gave that clunker
to a guy who worked in the dining hall. The
guy needed a car, Chris just gave him one. Is

(09:32):
interest in immigration. He traces it to the football locker
rooms he inhabited near the end of his career. There's
twenty twelve and it was selection year Ramy and Obama
and people were talking about issues in the locker room.
I was in San Diego. We were talking about politics.
I was getting a lot of questions. People, you know,
wanted to hear my view because I'm not a Democrat,

(09:52):
nor am I a Republican. Somebody asked me about immigration.
I was like, I don't know. I've always been the
top person like if I haven't really studied or really
know something, I'm not going to go based on what's
something I heard on TV. And I kind of feel
like I should have an opinion about this, but I've
never really thought about it. A couple months later, and

(10:13):
partly because I didn't know. I read Ethnic America by
Thomas foul He's an economist, and it was just about
the history of immigration the United States during the late
nineteenth century and early twentieth century and looking at six
different groups at kan United States, and it was just
really interesting to hear how their cultures played a part
when it came to how they economically prospered or how

(10:37):
they helped out America. For reading that book and led
me to really learning about immigration and different arguments foreign against,
moral reasons, economic reasons, pragmatic reasons for it, and I
just kind of got really interested in it. So once
I went to Lascow in twenty fourteen, I said that
might be an avenue that I might want to do

(10:58):
because I would have a chance to being court a lot.
I can get to be around a lot of different
people from different backgrounds. So Ever, since my second year
in law school, I knew that it was going to
be an immigration attorney. Rachel Peterson and her business partner
weren't sure if Chris would be interested in working for
their firm if and when he finished law school and
passed the bar, but he was. He became a full

(11:20):
time immigration attorney in twenty seventeen, shortly after he passed
the bar. He's been at it for two years now.
I asked him to explain what he does. Pretty much
all aspects of immigration laws. So sometimes it's just administratives
trying to get visas for people and trying to strategize
what's the best way to get a visa, make sure
you follow all the steps. We also have some litigation,

(11:42):
so we're in court, and so that's the whole different
ball game that's more similar to sports because you're competing,
you're in the courtroom, you're making arguments, and the government
attorneys are there to try to deport your clients. So yeah,
I get a contrast of high stakes wort things that
are very very important. Sometimes I've been sure that if

(12:04):
this person goes back, they're going to get killed within
a year. Those are the ultimate stakes. Obviously. I wonder
if the nine years Cris spent in the NFL helped
him now in any way one thing about football that
helped me. You're preparing like you're kind of going the
war in the NFL because every game is so important.

(12:26):
Every game could be the game that costs you a
chance of going into the playoffs. Games are so close
to the NFL and your jobs on the line too
as well. NFL is the only league where all the
contracts aren't guaranteed, and so in that respect, you're used
to every week high stakes, high stakes. So now I've
had these cases when I've been in court during final

(12:48):
hearings so much, kind of like I've always prepared like
this for almost ten years that every week was like
life and death. I could lose my job or we
cannot make the playoffs if I make them state. So
dealing with that pressure and actually having cases where that
actually is the case is helping. Playing an NFL and

(13:09):
having that pressure every week really prepared me when it
comes to the pressure that one could still being in
court under high stakes. I asked Rachel Peterson to identify
the attributes that made her want to hire Chris, the
attributes that made him such an effective attorney. She gave
me a long list. He's always up for a challenge,
he works long hours. He's a team player, he can

(13:32):
focus under pressure. He has thick skin. If a judge
criticizes him, he doesn't blink. I mean, do those sound
like qualities learned in the NFL or what you practice hard,
you're part of a team, you get yelled at. Rachel's
observation was that Chris's years playing high pressure, high stake
sports definitely helped prepare him for what he's doing now.

(13:55):
But her favorite part of Chris's story is that he
had to learn Spanish from to communicate with her firm's clientele.
He learned Spanish as an adult, essentially by just working
really hard. When he was an intern with us, he
would come in in the mornings an hour before work
started and just packed Spanish. H tutor and he would

(14:18):
go to the library like twice a week to do
Spanish conversation classes. And now he speaks great Spanish, is
better than mine. His vocabulary is wonderful. He works on
us all day speaking Spanish, and so for someone who's
been a speak Spanish when he talked with us the
first time, that's amazing. Grist play for five teams in

(14:44):
the NFL. But he wanted me to know he enjoyed
his time in Baltimore the most, and he wasn't saying
that just because he was being interviewed for a Ravens podcast.
When I looked out to my unful career, I consider
the Baltimore Ravens would be the players which I had
the most fun, the place where I feel like I
reached my potential as a player, the best organization, the

(15:04):
best coaches, the best teammates, and really the best fans.
So after I was released, it was kind of downhill
after that. Baltimore was such a good organization. I had
so much fun and I felt so comfortable in that
locker room, the coaches. It was just really hard to
go from first class everything to go into a different team.

(15:25):
I kind of struggled mentally when that, because you feel
like you're taking a step down. When I consider myself
as a football player, I consider myself as a Raven
first and foremost. They're a team that I want to
win the football every year. They're a team that treating
me the best and where I played the best. His
football career is something he can't look back on with pride.

(15:47):
He led the NFL and kickoff return yardage in each
of his first two seasons when he was in Oakland.
He played in one hundred and twenty five games overall,
intercepted seven passes, recovered five fumbles, played a lot of
nickel corners, corner and played it well. He easily could
have transitioned from playing into coaching, but there was one problem.
A lot of people who truly loved football, they'd like

(16:10):
to get into coaching when they're finished, and they're usually
great coach, especially if they worked hard in their intelligence
because of you're strategizing, you're really competing mentally, and you're
coaching and you're working with people. But I never loved
football like that, so I knew that I didn't want
to compete mentally and day to day to have that

(16:31):
type of lifestyle, because I just knew that I could
potentially be a good coach, but I just didn't want
to have the drive that is necessary to possibly move
from city to city with your family for the next
twenty thirty years of your life and doing something that
he didn't love. Just looking at him now, six years

(16:51):
after his career ended, it's hard to believe he ever played.
His NFL playing weight was around one hundred and eighty
five pounds, but once he was done and stopped weight training,
he immediately dropped more than twenty pounds. Now he weighs
one sixty and sorry, but that's around what I weigh
and believe me, no one sees me walking down the
street and thinks, there goes a former NFL player. When

(17:14):
somebody sees me, they do not think football player. Who
I was done. I had to get a whole new ward.
Jim then my close fit. So now even when people
find out, like different parents and my kids school or
anything like that, it's like you you did. How especially
due to my size, people don't even it can't even register.

(17:34):
On the day I went to watch him in court
and wound up having to tell the judge there was
a raven's connection to the hearing. The judge had absolutely
no clue that the connection was an attorney standing right
in front of him and then hearing. By the way
it went well for Chris, the judge complimented him a
couple of times on the thoroughness of the legal brief
he'd prepared, basically the written version of his argument. Your

(17:57):
brief was excellent, the judge said, nice to hear. I'm
sure from the outset it was clear the judge was
sympathetic to Chris's client, believed her story and the fact
that she and her son could be in danger if
they had to return to El Salvador. The judge also
seemed irritated by the government attorney spoke harshly to him
several times. I won't get into it, but there are

(18:17):
specific benchmarks a person must meet to receive legal asylum.
And after several hours of testimony, the judge announced he
planned to rule for Chris's client, but he wanted the
verdict to stand on appeal, which he figured was coming,
so he asked Chris and the government attorney to submit
their closing arguments in writing, a process that would extend
the case for another month or even longer. When the

(18:41):
hearing was adjourned and everyone started getting up to leave,
the judge's curiosity got the best of him. He looked
at me and he said, okay, so what is the
Ravens connection? I paused. Chris was up front packing his briefcase.
He spoke up, I played for the Ravens, he said.
The judge's eyes widened. You played for the Ravens, he asked, yep.

(19:03):
Chris said, I played for them and four other teams.
I played nine years in the NFL, he said. There
was silence. Wow, the judge said, obviously impressed and incredulous.
How'd you get here? He asked? Where'd you go to
law school. Chris explained that he went to GW after
he finished playing, and then he got out and started

(19:24):
working for this firm. And here he was good for you,
the judge replied. Chris nodded all business and headed for
the door. I grabbed him out in the hallway. He
was going to take his client and her family to lunch.
Everyone was all smiles. The positive resolution was life changing.
I asked Chris if he could give me the short

(19:44):
version of what had just happened before he went to lunch.
I taped our conversation on my cell phone. By the way,
if it sounds a little different, what just happened that
He said he's going to grant the decision, but he
wants to write the decision because he really doesn't want
it to lose a pill. No judges, they don't want
anybody to. They don't like him in the other courts,

(20:06):
you know, tell them that they were wrong. So he's
going to really try to strengthen the case. Right. But
also he gave me another attorney a chance to write
our closing arguments instead of making them in the court,
which is fine because we won on one ground of
one argument. But I want to win on all the
grounds and all the arguments, because it gives us some

(20:29):
stronger case if if it does get appilled. We wish
that we had an outcome right now and it was
completely over. But as far as like, if you want
to win and you want the best win possible, this
is the best case scenario, how long did it take
you to prepare for that this this case? I mean
the briefing, the briefest six thousand words, but a lot

(20:49):
of research. If I was just doing this case from
start to finish and that's all I did all day
and all morning, all night, it probably been about three
weeks of my time. Yeah, so it took it took
a lot of hours. So when you go to lunch
with them afterwards everything and they're obviously smiling and very happy.
Is that there? Is that your pay I mean, is
that your payoff? Yeah? You know, it's it's been fortunate.

(21:13):
I haven't had anybody deported, but yeah, I know it's
not over. But yeah, it's a very good feeling to
win because so far everybody that worked with have been
really really good people, and I really enjoyed working with them,
and so knowing that I can help them get a
chance to stay here in this country legally. It gives

(21:34):
me a lot of pride. It makes me it's a
lot of it can't feel like a like a parent
or like you're you're just really happy for them. Yeah,
it's different from like player, like you're as a players,
like you're more happy for yourself and your teammates and
like you feel like but I feel like it was
like their accomplishment in a sense, I'm just happy for them.
It's a good film. It seems like a good time

(21:58):
to state for the record that I have no agenda
with this podcast. I didn't get into it to make
some grand social or political statement. I'm just trying to
find interesting stories, human interest stories and tell them in
an interesting way. But as I've worked on these episodes,
and this is number six of eight, by the way,
I guess a grand statement of sorts has come to

(22:19):
the four it's a statement about the population of NFL players,
former ones, really current ones too. There are a lot
of stereotypes out there. You know that they're rough guys
who play a rough sport, that maybe they've been hit
on the head a few too many times, but they
might be great athletes. But don't ask them to quote Shakespeare,
you know that kind of stuff. Well, if I've learned

(22:41):
anything from talking to guys like Peter Bulwer, Matt Burke,
Gary Baxter and others for this podcast, it's that you
stereotyped them like that at your own peril. You'd better
be careful with that stuff. There are a lot of
former NFL players who can quote Shakespeare, Guys doing all
sorts of interesting and challenging things. Chris Carr had a

(23:04):
lot to say about that. I think with any profession,
and it's really hard to know exactly what people have
to do to make it there and what it takes
to stay on top and the day to day struggles.
And that's almost with anything. I do think people don't
realize how smart a lot of NFL players are and
how much mental preparation take. I remember my first couple

(23:25):
of years, people would ask me, would you do until Sunday?
I'm like, pretty, what do you just like hang out
until the game? Or I'm like no, we have meetings
and get to study and watch film and go over
game plan and plays and make texts and look for tendencies.
And it's oh, I didn't, I didn't realize that you
have to do that. One misconception too, I think the

(23:46):
NFL players are just athletes in general. Is that what
they've done and all their hard work and the mental
aspect of the game of football, which requires more strategy
I think than any major sport, at least in America,
is that a lot of players are capable of going
on and doing more things with their life after football

(24:07):
besides coaching. I think people really should stress that more
often when athletes are younger, I mean high school and college,
because sometimes you know, if you didn't do well in
college or didn't graduate, you're not going to go to
a good law school, etc. So I think what it
takes to make it to the NFL to stay in
the NFL the mental aspect of it, and the intelligence

(24:28):
of a lot of football players. I think a lot
of people don't realize how intelligent some players are and
how mentally tough they are. I think I know the
answer to this question, but do you identify as as
a former NFL guy? No, I A lot of times.
I mean, my identity is in my lifestyles so much
different than the past that a lot of times I

(24:50):
don't even think about the fact that I used to play.
So yeah, so whenever I meet somebody's like on my
attorney in that lifestyle and it doesn't even feel like
I played in a sense, it's really strange. I have
so many fund memories, especially in Baltimore, and all the
fun times in the locker room, being around the guys
and everything, and it just seems like a dream like

(25:12):
it or like when you take a vacation in the
Europe and he had memories of it, but it doesn't
feel Tamsiball anymore because it just seems like it was
a dream that at the time it seemed vivid, but
now it's really even hard to believe that it happened.
And that's kind of how football is for me. I
really try to think about football occasionally to really appreciate
the opportunities that I had and what it did for

(25:35):
me and my family and the people I got to
meet and experience that I had. I was very fortunate,
very blessed to have those experiences. I do think it
is healthy mindset, and just the mindset I've always had
is that I am a human being before I'm a
football player or a lawyer or anything else, and just

(25:58):
hold on to my identity as a football player. It
can be kind of dangerous, and I think some players
probably broble attack because if that is your identity and
it can never be let go to then if you're
not involved a football anymore, it can be really testing
to swallow. You can find out more about Chris Carr's

(26:21):
career at Baltimore Ravens dot com slash What Happened to
that Guy? He was a really interesting subject, and I'd
like to thank him for speaking to me and for
arranging for me to get to watch him in court.
Another new episode of the podcast will drop in two weeks,
and they'll keep coming every other week for the rest
of the twenty nineteen season. I hope you find them interesting.

(26:43):
The first five episodes have generated almost one hundred thousand listens,
which is very gratifying. The podcast is off to a
great start. If you like what you're hearing, don't hesitate
to leave a five star rating, write a review. Also
subscribe to it so you don't miss any episodes. This
podcast and The Lounge, the excellent weekly podcast from my

(27:05):
colleagues Rhyanmink and Garrett Downing, are part of the Baltimore
Ravens podcast network. You can tell people just search for
that wherever you get your podcast Baltimore Ravens Podcasts Network,
and everything will come up. This is John Eisenberg. I'll
talk to you in two weeks.