Gestalt Language Processing, Natural Language Acquisition & the State of Research with Marge Blanc

Episode Transcript
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Adina (00:05):
Welcome to the Exploring Neurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend

(00:27):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,

(00:47):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.

(01:07):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in
Welcome Marge.

Marge (01:18):
Thank you so much.
It's great to be here.

Adina (01:20):
I am absolutely delighted to share time and space and
thoughts and ideas with you.
I, you might've got the vibe already,but I'm a massive fan of your work
and, very honoured to have you here.
I'm going to just say it up front.
One of the things I love about yourwork, your career, which I'll discuss
in a moment, is just how open minded youhave remained throughout your, I think,

(01:41):
50 plus years of being a speech languagepathologist, just honouring people for
who they are and listening to individuals.
And that warms my autistic speechlanguage pathologist heart.

Marge (01:53):
Well, that's really nice of you to say.
No, it comes with the territory.
Don't we all feel kind of that wayabout our clients and our cohorts?

Adina (02:04):
I would hope so many do, and a few don't, I think.
And that's important.
It's just so important.
I don't want it to be left unsaid.
So for those who have not had thepleasure of meeting Marge Blanc, I
will do her proper introduction ratherthan my very excitable introduction.
Marge has been a clinical speechlanguage pathologist for 50 years
and she's loved every minute of it.

(02:25):
After 20 years working with analyticlanguage processors in public
schools across the US and Canada.
She became an associate clinicalprofessor at the University
of Wisconsin Madison in 1993.
There, she met her first Gestaltlanguage processor, a little boy who
often used lines from his big brotherand the movie, All Dogs Go to Heaven.
His mom knew all his favourite lines.

(02:46):
And do you want to say, The, the line, Ifeel like you'll say it better than I do.

Marge (02:50):
Well, you know, it's just so typical of kids, you know,
like, let's get out of here.

Adina (02:58):
I love it.
It's also a very motivating one, isn't it?
Gets a lot done.
And, and that line sounds likethat's one of the ones that
sparked his language development.
And as you noted, it's just asBarry Prizant predicted in 1983.
And so we're going to dig back intoa bit of the history of these ways of
thinking about language development.
Marge has written a fantasticallyimportant, useful book, Natural

(03:21):
Language Acquisition on the AutismSpectrum, The Journey from Echolalia
to Self Generated Language.
And I myself had the pleasure ofjoining your training that you
ran through AGOSCI in Australiain, I think it was two years ago.
What's good about Echolalia, it's languagedevelopment, which I, Absolutely adored.
And it just clarified so much for me.

(03:42):
And we're just goingto keep it going today.
Sounds great.
And in fact, that training Ichecked is actually still available.
So I will link in the show notes.
There'll be a lot of links in theshow notes for those listening.
You know, for, for ways that youcan get more information, follow
up on Marge's work and so on.
She also runs one Facebook group andis a contributor to another Facebook

(04:03):
group, which I'll link, which iscalled Gestalt Language Process
and Natural Language Acquisition.
And that's a great resource for gettingmore information and insights and support.
Yeah.
And there's one more resource whichMarge has just told me about, which was
a conference that you participated in

Marge (04:18):
so this was a conference organised by a clinic in the
UK called The Speech Den.
And so the conference iscalled The Speech Den Gestalt
Language Processing Conference.
It's going to be again in another year.
It was so incredibly successful, and allof your listeners have a chance to take

(04:42):
advantage of this, yet, even though thelive sessions are over, everything has
been recorded, it's all available, andyou can still sign up for it, the chat,
all the chats are still available, soyou can join in the conversations, and
I will tell you that it's It has beenthe most amazing way for professionals

(05:05):
and parents to come together on thesame plane for, I would say, the first
time in something of this magnitude.
It's, it's beautiful.
So, I hope you all will, will join.
There's so many thingsthat you'll just love.

Adina (05:23):
It sounds like a really fabulous additional resource.
So again, I will link to that in the shownotes and you clarified my, what was
going to be my next question is that it'sappropriate for parents and professionals,
which is pretty much the groups ofpeople listening to the podcast as well.
Very, very useful.
So, we will So let's dive in a littlebit to some of the history, but
actually before that, we're goingto go some definitions because there

(05:46):
might be people listening who arenot so across some of the terms that
we're going to be talking about.
And we'll probably end up with someacronyms just to keep our lives easier.
But let's get clear onwhat we're talking about.
So can you share some of the terms likehow we understand Gestalt language
processing, analytic language processing.
Is there an in between and what, naturallanguage acquisition means in the context

(06:09):
of what we're talking about today?

Marge (06:10):
Okay, great.
Well, yeah, all these terms are important,but they're only important in the context
of who this child is in front of you.
Honestly, because if we as cliniciansand parents are looking at our child as
language developing, which every childis, we can say now with confidence that if

(06:36):
they are not doing the traditional thingthat we all think, we all think that kids
are going to do, that is word plus wordplus word, which is the analytical way.
It seems like a strange term, you know,in a way, like an, an analysing, but in
a way what it refers to is just thosebits of language that are extracted from

(07:02):
this entirety of everything a child,I mean, we're talking about a, a 12
month old child, an 18 month old child.
When they can analyse it or figure it out.
They get down to a word, and we allthink that's just commonplace, that
every child gets down to the word,but what we learned from Ann Peters

(07:26):
40 years ago is that no, we don't.
We get down to a unit and a unitcould be a word if you're an analytic
language processor, but it couldbe something chunkier, bigger,
more melodic, more like music.
And that's a gestalt.

(07:47):
A Gestalt just meaning the whole, youknow, in, in the vernacular of, from
German , that the sum of the parts is notthe entirety, but it's something bigger.
So that's a Gestalt.
And that's what Ann Peters taught us40 years ago, is that yes, Gestalt.
Every child gets, gets a unitout of this speech stream.

(08:10):
But if you're looking at it moreanalytically, it's maybe a word.
If you're looking at it more holistically,musically, sensorily, Then it's a big,
big, potentially, or small, chunk.
So that's the difference.
And you say, what is in between?
And so there's a lot of hypotheticalthat we think about right now.

(08:32):
Ann Peters speculated, you know, we'veall speculated that it's not like
Dichotomy, you know, it's like probablya whole continuum, but the kids who
come to our minds are those who areeither really successful with the word
plus word, or the kids who are, asBarry Prizant would say, one of the

(08:55):
researchers from our past and our present.
And, you know, if that's not thecase, then who are the extreme kids?
And so, we've done a lot of work withthose extremes, if you will, and I think
the frontier of research moving forwardis, what about all those kids in between?

(09:16):
So, right now, we, we don't havea really good term for them.
We call them the dual processors.
Like, they can take a chunk of data,from the Gestalt and take a word from
the analytic and put them together.
And you see that in kids, if you'repaying attention, you know, when
they're 18 months old and we don't seethem in our clinics usually because

(09:39):
they can develop language so fast.
So now that we know more aboutGestalt language development, we're
more aware of those kids in between.
And that's one of the researchfrontiers into the future.

Adina (09:52):
important note that the kids who are developing language quite well, I'm
using like air quotes here, we don'tsee them in our clinics and they might
be some of the ones who are accessinglanguage development in those two ways.
I'm going to jump in with a littleexample of a gestalt, again, for
those who are still getting their headaround these terms, if they're not
so familiar, I've got a five year oldand a just turned one year old and the

(10:13):
one year old is good at climbing upon things now and terrible at talking.
She wants to go head first still.
So there's a lot of I didn't realise I wascreating this little unit of turn around.
This was my little turn around.
And then I found Miss five year old.
I heard her say to thelittle one, turn around.
She's, you know, got, she's.
Pinched my unit.

(10:33):
She's got excellent language, but herprompt for the baby was turn around.
And then I heard the baby who is actuallyspeaking quite a bit, I hear her going.

Marge (10:45):
That's just a beautiful example.
So for your one year old,what is that SoundStream?
It's the five year old givingher some support and, you know,
really putting sound into her life.
on that, you know, experience of hers.
That's really a beautiful example.

Adina (11:04):
It's fun.
It makes me giggle.
So yeah, we're very Gestalty at home, we'll say.
So thank you for sharingthose clarifications.
And so again, for the listeners, we'llprobably use acronyms like GLP which might
refer to Gestalt language processing orGestalt language processors, depending
on exactly what we're talking about.
We might use ALP.

(11:24):
Analytic Language Processing,and we might use NLA as well,
Natural Language Acquisition.
So do you want to justclarify that, that term?

Marge (11:33):
Yeah.
So back when I was really introduced tothis in the first, it was 1993, which
as you mentioned, I started workingas a clinical instructor, which is the
name back then for a associate clinicalprofessor at the University of Wisconsin.
And because I'd worked withchildren for 20 years, you know,

(11:56):
that was my, my group who I wasintroducing to the graduate students.
And so one of my very firstclients was a little one who
said, Let s get out of here.
And his mom was quick to say tome, Yeah, of course he says that.
Of course, that s the language he hears.

(12:17):
So my introduction to all of thiswas very, very organic, if you will.
I mean, a parent, Who understood,I had Barry Prizant's work in front
of me, I had Ann Peters book thatI carried around with me, you know,
always, and everything worked just theway they said it was going to work.

(12:37):
So, I determined at that pointthat I was going to do exactly what
Barry Prizant said I should do.
He didn't say it straight to me, butin his 1983 article he said, Yeah,
we've got a great thing going here.
We've got a good theory, and my theoryis These experiences, this language

(12:57):
development is going to be repeatable,replicable when we look at lots of kids.
So I determined after my first, youknow, little GLP said, You know, as
he was paring down his language fromthis gestalt down to the single word,
he did that, and he said one day,instead of, I gotta get toys, he said

(13:23):
with all this intonation that yourlittle one year old is using, he went
through those first parts of that word.
Process.
And he said, I toy.
And I'd read Barry Prizant by then.
And I knew that stage three wasthat paring down to single words.

(13:44):
But to see that with my own eyesand my own ears and have my grad
students at that time, You know, beable to witness that was just, you
know, it just set me on my course.
So over time, I developed this,It's nott a protocol that comes from my thinking.
It's a protocol thatcomes from watching kids.
And so as I spent the next 15 yearslooking at what Kids actually do

(14:09):
in supported situations to developlanguage from those early gestalts.
Then natural languageacquisition was born.
And Barry Prizant had said, yeah,there's going to be four stages.
You'll see four stages.
And I found those four stages andthere were a couple more because

(14:30):
obviously grammar, you know,needs a little time to develop.
So by 15 years of research was.
Finished, we had six stages.
And I call that natural languageacquisition, simply to give it a
respectable title that people acknowledgedas real and, you know, key word, natural.

Adina (14:53):
That's really interesting.
And I love it.
What you're saying is it describeswhat kids are doing and you're
just noticing what kids are doing,which leads me to this beautiful
quote that I heard from you.
You recently were on Barry'spodcast Uniquely Human,
which was a fabulous episode.
Again, I'll link to that episode.
If anyone wanting to hear that.
And one thing I loved, you said, "ourtheory is pay attention to kids".

(15:16):
And I just thought, oh, yes, I love it.
Please.
Can you share more about thatphilosophy, that approach and how
it influences how we should all besupporting kids language development?

Marge (15:27):
Right.
Well, that's just, that's great that youextracted that and it's great that you
talked about it this way and are talkingabout it this way because, you know, a lot
of the research in our field, you know,was after all of this qualitative research
from the 60s, 70s and 80s, which reallyis the foundation of our whole profession.

(15:49):
And what we know about languagedevelopment, ALP and GLP.
But, then we kind of entered a differentage where experimental designs began,
and we read a lot about that now.
In fact, we can hardly remember thedays when, you know, moms like you

(16:11):
were quoting their one year old.
We can hardly remember thosedays, but that is our foundation.
It was moms with, you know, taperecorders, you know, iPhones, and
looking at what do kids really do?
So, basically, the theory oflanguage development, then, if

(16:31):
you're an ALP, a GLP, or somewherein between, is just pay attention.
You know, we all are diagnosticians.
You know, sometimes peoplewill say, Oh, this GLP thing is
just too crazy on the internet.
You know, we've got too many peoplewho are saying, Oh, everybody's a GLP.

(16:52):
Well, nobody is.
You know, nobody's saying that.
We're just saying that as, youknow, diagnosticians, you know, and
parents are diagnosticians too, likeyou said about your little, little
one, you know, who is this child?
How is this child, you know, takingin, you know, the language world,

(17:12):
you know, in the surroundings?
And so we all are, we're thinking,how are we going to, you know,
help promote language development?
And so in that regard, We're not goingto start with a theory out there, you
know, we're not going to start with GLPany more than we need to start with ALP.
We're just going to be open minded.

(17:32):
We're just going to connectwith our kids and be there.
That's, that's the beginning point.
You know, we all know that, right?
That's, that's not anything new at all.

Adina (17:43):
I think so.
I think some people can get a littlebit too stuck in the theories.
You and I, we're on the same page.
Many others are.
And, you know, I think there's a lotof people in that in between, almost
like that in between, you know,Gestalt and analytic processing.
There's people in between thoseresearch worlds and the practice
world and, you know, that.
They're noticing things with kids,but they're waiting for a journal

(18:05):
article to tell them what to do.
But anyway, we'll, we'll head downthat path eventually, but I wonder if
there's, you've touched on some of thehistory of Gestalt language processing
research, NLA research back to the 1980s.
Is there anything that we haven't reallykind of touched on any phases of this
research pathway that you wanted to share?
Any pivotal moments that wehaven't talked about yet?

Marge (18:27):
Well, you know, maybe, maybe a pivotal moment was really something
that wasn't highlighted back in the day.
You know, back in the day, qualitativeresearch was just commonplace.
And so we didn't say, oh, by theway, We didn't get just a bunch
of kids and take them to a lab andhave this theory and test it out.

(18:52):
You know, nobody considered that.
And so no one considered thattheir qualitative research that
is just paying attention to kidsover time, longitudinally, was
anything that was a big deal.
And so maybe a pivotal moment in away is, I would say the resurgence.

(19:12):
of Barry Prizant talking tous about why that qualitative
research was and is so important.
And I think for him, he didn't realise atthis conference, this same UK conference,
he didn't realise that what he had tosay from the past was so important.

(19:36):
And so once he realised that, Youknow, his research was pivotal.
Then he was able to say,yeah, it was pivotal.
And that might seem like a small point.
The other thing that we urged him to sayis, how did you get started with this?
How did you even think to do it?

(19:58):
And you know what the answer is,and this is the pivotal part.
It was parents.
He said that, you know, he was lookingat echolalia, which of course, back in
those days was considered pathological.
And so he's looking at this thingthat was considered pathological.
And he said to the parents of the kidshe was working with, , this is his PhD.

(20:21):
And so he's talking to parentsand he's saying, what do your
kids mean by this echolalia?
And just like in my case with my Dylan,parents had answers, parents knew.
And so it was the parents who basicallyurged him to continue with his research.

(20:41):
And I think that is pivotal becauseI think we're coming full circle.
And I think it is something that we, asSLPs, you know, we've been kind of taught.
To consider the ivory tower method oflooking at, you know, our expertise, but
really it's parents who are the experts.

(21:01):
And I think we're, we'recoming back to that.
And it really is the neurodiversitymovement that's brought us
back to lived experiences andlistening to lived experiences.

Adina (21:12):
It's.
Warming my heart to see thiscome from other spaces as well.
And , you mentioned that Barry wassharing these ideas from the past,
but again, they're not from the past.
they're coming back to, to be shared againand again in fresh ways and to remind
everybody that they're still relevantand relevant again, even more so perhaps
which is fascinating and wonderful.

(21:34):
I mean, my whole work is aroundneurodiversity affirming practice
and it seems again, so obvious to me.
Why don't we listen to individualswho actually live these things,
you know, listen to autisticpeople, listen to autistic kids,
pay attention to kids, listen tothe caregivers who know them best.
It's a big important thing,taking that step away from expert.

(21:58):
Putting expert aside.

Marge (22:00):
And that's exactly the way, that Barry Prizant says it.
He said, that is the expert model.
And we've done that for a long time.
And did it get us anywhere?
Not really.
So in some ways, you know,what's happened as we listened to
autistic voices is we're really.
I feel like we're listening for the firsttime, you know, and not everyone is,

(22:23):
of course, and that's part of what yourpodcast really is helping, everyone to
think about what, what things are we notlistening to and why are we not listening?
And you know, I don't want to get intosome of the the research ideas that
are out now that might not be veryneurodiversity affirming, but I feel like

(22:47):
we're at a place in history where if wedid not pathologise, we would have less
opportunity to get big, well funded, bigtime research and a lot of Institutions
would be financially in a place of debate,you know, and I don't want to necessarily

(23:12):
bring up Applied Behavioural Analysis,but I mean, as a, as an industry, you
know, I think we're finding now thatThat we, you and I, and all of the people
we know, are being challenged more now,in a way, than we were five years ago.

(23:33):
And I think that's happening, at thelevel of the universities now, and
the funding of university research.

Adina (23:39):
There's so many mixed motivations.
I think questioning what is themotivation for it all is deeply important.
We've got a lot of challenge goingon in Australia at the moment, our
national disability insurance scheme,which funds people with disability
to get supports that they need.
It's been a broken system for a longtime, but it's currently seeming to be

(24:01):
dismantled or in the process of gettingsemi dismantled by the government.
It's a huge, huge issue, but they'repicking apart what supports are
acceptable according to the governmentto be funded and what's not acceptable.
it's very much a challenge to actuallyhave supports that are affirming and
in line with what the NDIS schemewas initially there to do to support

(24:23):
people to live their best life.
And it's back to this, you know, youcan only seek supports if there's
a big problem and then you haveto paint things as a big problem.
And again, the motivationsare very misaligned.
I don't have an answer for that.
I have only fears for that.
And I've spent a lot of time educatingspeech therapists how they can both be
neurodiversity affirming in the carefor kids and also paint a very clear

(24:47):
picture that this child needs support.
Both those things can be true and valid.
So there is a middle ground.
You know, there's a lot ofgrey area in our chat today.
There is a middle space where kids canbe seen for who they are, kids can be
affirmed for who they are, and their wayof communicating, their way of naturally
developing, and also need some support.
These things can both be true.

Marge (25:08):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And if support is in an area that Helpsa person become in my, this is the way I
say it, become who they already are, thenthat is the way that we can be respectful.

Adina (25:25):
Hmm.
What a beautiful way to frame it.
I love that.
And so much of it as well is like,how do we help the people around them?
The, the parents, the educators, theteachers, you know, to see who that person
is and how best to, to meet them there.
What a beautiful way to say it.
I'm going to breathe on that one.
Wow.
Thank you.
Now your book was published12, 12 years ago, initially?

Marge (25:47):
Yeah, that was 12 years ago.
It's time for a revision.

Adina (25:52):
Well, so, so can you share what, what are you seeing are
the shifts in our understandingof Gestalt language processing?
What are the key revisions on your mind?

Marge (26:00):
Nice, nice, good question.
So I would say that as you werementioning, we don't get to see really
the dual processors in our clinics becausethey don't need much support typically.
Now people will say, well,don't they need some support?
And I say, well, it depends as thisgoes back to what you just said.

(26:20):
It goes back to what kindof support is the support.
Someone needs.
And so for families who have achild who is a dual processor,
sometimes they're just confused.
It's like, well, it sounds like Gestaltlanguage processing, but it's different.
So I think in that case, supportis just simply understanding.

(26:42):
And so that's why that is my kind ofresearch interest going into the future
here is looking at those individualswho are not the extreme, you know,
of gestalt language processing,who might need something as As big,
if you will, as Natural LanguageAcquisition, my six, you know, stage

(27:05):
hierarchy, not hierarchy, but process.
But might need something that is likevery specially designed for them.
So maybe the chunk, if you will, thegestalt, is not really the whole sensory,
motor, experiential emotional, big,gestalt, but maybe it's a smaller one.

(27:30):
Like Ann Peters said back in her, inher research, you know, if you have
a frame that fits you, and you have aplace for a slot, that fits you, then
your language development is supported.
And I realised that I, Ididn't go into great detail.
We don't have great, great detail,but it's almost like one child who

(27:53):
I've gotten to know fairly well, hasa a mum who is very much like her.
And so the kind of chunkiness oftheir life is like in the box.
Oh, that one, well, I don't know.
So this mix of intonational contours,this mix of chunks, and so when this

(28:15):
child puts together these chunks, whatAnn Peters would have predicted, it's
like, Oh, it's in the box, we're there.
And it's like, not the melodiccontour that we expect from an
extreme gestalt language processor,nor is it the word plus word.
But it's something in between.

(28:35):
And I suspect there are allkinds of things in between.
So, let's see, let's goback to your question
so clearly that's one thing, becauseeven though those individuals in
between might not need The kind ofsupport we have in our clinics as much,
those families need the support tounderstand that what's going on is fine.

(28:58):
You know, it's not strictly this,it's not strictly this, but it's good.
And so that's one thing.
I mean, obviously AAC.
For Gestalt Language Processorsis a big item and we know that.
Obviously, older individuals, you know,who Sheridan Forster talks about, the
individuals who are 10 and older whomight not be You're not doing grammar

(29:23):
development like a younger child would,but what are the horizontal supports
that we can give an older individual?
So that is a huge issue itself.
And then there's all the other thingslike you said, like if you're going
to support an individual to become whothey are, then what about literacy?

(29:44):
What about curriculum?
What about school based things?
And how do we?
Really open our minds to thefact that our kids, our students,
are, you know, all over the map.
That's big, obviously.

Adina (30:01):
It is.
Yeah.
And so I'm kind of linking this inwith, you know, the question of like,
where are these gaps in research?
So you've covered sort of AAC is onebig area, literacy and Are there any
other areas that you're finding a gap?

Marge (30:12):
The other thing too, is obviously speech intelligibility.
And, you know, we have kind ofthis idea in our SLT, SLP minds
that apraxia of speech is whatmotor speech difficulties are like.
But for a GLP who is looking atthe entire intonational contour,

(30:36):
we're looking at something deeper.
We're not looking at, youknow, consonant sounds.
We're looking at intonational support.
We're looking at breath support.
We're looking at being able to producea long intonational contour, and then
what that support is as we get to,you know, vowel sounds, and finally
consonants, and how that You know,fits together with language development

Adina (31:01):
I feel like we're at the cusp of something incredibly important and
I'm not saying it hasn't been happeningfor 40 years, but all these directions
that you're sharing, these new ideas.
exciting avenues to understand furtherhow can we support kids and adults,
anyone you know, regardless of howthey learn language, regardless of

(31:22):
how they process language, there'sso many exciting directions.
I actually want to do 50 PhDsbased on our discussion right now.
I probably won't, but

Marge (31:30):
No, you are absolutely right.
I mean, you think about whatis our literature, you know,
based on now, it's based on.
ALPs and how kids were delayed,how kids needed extra support.
We have to do all thosethings for our GLPs now.
We really do.
Oh, you're totally right.
So for graduate students rightnow, the future is just unlimited.

Adina (31:53):
Really exciting.
I'm seeing this as exciting opportunity.
And I do see that there are some,you know, researchers and speech
language pathologists who are dividedon the topic of GLP, ALP, NLA.
Do you feel that this division hasalways been there and, and how do
you respond to critics who I guessthey're coming from different angles,
but, but what are the, some of themessages that you would like to share

(32:15):
with those who are criticising theseways of understanding what people do?

Marge (32:21):
Well, that's such a good question.
And no, to be very, very honest, myfirst article came out in 2005, and
that was based on a three year studyof this Dylan, who I mentioned to you.
And honestly, I haven't had anycritique at all until this year.

(32:42):
Seriously.
Zero, absolutely zero.
So I feel in a way that it'snot so much controversy as it is
really, I mean, I hate to say itthis bluntly, but really pushback.
And I think that, you know,it's, it just doesn't jibe with
very many parts of our field.

(33:05):
And the fields beyond us, I mean,psychology, you know, ABA, as we
talked about, it doesn't jibe thatthis could all be natural and normal
and just needs to be understood.
How many things do you not study ifyou think that you've got a good idea?
And the thing is, is people have beenso happy with all of this for so long.

(33:26):
You know, I've had, as you mentioned,you know, I had another Facebook group
that still exists, that's too big to,you know, invite people into right now,
but I mean, it's been around for 12years, and, and parents are supporting
parents, and that's what's happeningall over the world now, people are
presenting courses in Central America,South America, India, you know, into like

(33:49):
Turkey, I'm doing a presentation, youknow, for a course in Turkey and Malaysia.
I mean, there's a truth value.
That people feel.
And it is, again, parents andclinicians who are with kids.
But, that doesn't just jibe withall of those, standard, systems that

(34:10):
have been out there for a while.
So, yeah, no, not until this year hasthere been one single bit of criticism.

Adina (34:18):
Fascinating, and it's so, Interesting that people forget that
case study and longitudinal studiesare absolutely valid forms of research.
And in my mind, the most valid, really.
They're the ones that actually helpyou understand a human rather than
a set of numbers and statistics.

Marge (34:34):
Right.
Wow.
And you're, you're so right.
You look at who, who would critique this?
Like, you know, that one very wellknown article the first of the naysayer
articles that came out and, youknow, nobody said it doesn't work.
See, that's what's interestingto me is that of the critique so
far, no one says it doesn't work.

(34:55):
What they say is it doesn't make sense.
It's so hard to kind of figure outcognitively, you know, how can this be?
How can you start with a gestaltand pare it down and get to
a single word at stage three?
And, you know, and I will saythat for people who have lived it.
If you witness Stage 3yourself, you never look back.

(35:20):
It's like, how many years in ourprofession have we tried to figure
out how to get kids to get in theirleft brain and do this thing that
we've tried to get them to do?
You know, like, oh, we're going todo this pre verbal thing and this
pre verbal thing and this pre verbalthing to see if we can get them, you

(35:41):
know, what about joint attention?
What about all these many, many thingsthat we thought we're going to get them
on the same page with us and get themto do language development in our left
brain, you know, like you're supposed to.
And the thing of it is, is ifyou do it gently and naturally,
kids go there at stage three.

(36:02):
And that's part of the beauty ofit is it just happens naturally.
And you think about all the autisticadults, all the GLP adults who said,
yeah, that's exactly how I did it.

Adina (36:14):
I'm nodding.
Yes.
That's, that's me.
And I've done linguistics.
I've done a lot of language learningof second, third, fourth languages,
and having this framework of GLPto understand a way of learning
language, you know, case of one.
That's me.
Yes, yes, yes.
That is how I learn language.
It's how I learn music.

(36:35):
You're saying some of these naysayersare saying it doesn't make sense.
Well, I'm saying to me, yeah, it does.
And what I'd like to say back to thosepeople who are wondering, oh, it doesn't
make sense because I never learnedabout this, your quote from earlier.
Just pay attention to kids.

Marge (36:49):
Do you remember your youth in that regard?

Adina (36:53):
I, I do.
And there's a story I've sharedon my other podcast episode that
I did around GLPs with Dr.
Katherine Sanchez, where I'll,I'll share it again here for you.
I'm terrified up on stage.
Don't put me on stage, podcastwith my own microphone and
my own Computer screen, fine.
But I've got a memory of, I think aroundage eight, where I got up on stage for
the school talent quest and acted out anentire scene from Beauty and the Beast.

(37:17):
I had different actual masks.
My mum had made me masks on sticks so Icould be each of the different characters.
And I just wish we had video of itbecause I feel like intonationally,
timing wise, not only did I get it spoton then, I I would get it spot on now.
Like I, I know the whole,I know the gestalt.
I've got this.

(37:37):
But if you tell me like, whatwas that line or what did,
what did Lumiere say next?
I've got no idea, but let me go throughthe whole thing and I'll get you there.

Marge (37:45):
Do you have an hour?

Adina (37:46):
I mean, I'll, I'll do it if you ask, but no.
And then I think about how I learn music.
And, and again, I learnedviolin early and then the flute.
I think if there's something about beingdyslexic for reading music, that's me.
I don't know a term forthat, but that's me.
I never understood reading music.
It was incredibly effortful and confusing,but give me a tune, I can play it.

(38:09):
And I know many people talk aboutthis experience, the fingers
remember all of that, but thetune is there, the vibe is there.
I could go on and on,

Marge (38:16):
oh, that's beautiful.
That's really beautiful.
I love that.

Adina (38:19):
No, I'm just happy to put it all back together.
I think there's been a risk ofthe world of speech pathology
getting too fragmented over this.
It's not controversial.
It shouldn't be, it doesn't need to be.
Again, just look at the individuals infront of you and have opportunities to
see how they learn in different ways.

(38:40):
why would we all learn in the same way?

Marge (38:43):
Right, exactly.
And I think that you're,you're absolutely right.
All we need to do really is open ourminds to a spectrum of possibilities.
That's all we need to do.
People say, well, if I'm going to finda, an SLP or an SLT to work with, does
it need to be this, this, this, this,this, how trained, blah, blah, blah.

(39:03):
You just need an open mind.
That's really all it is.

Adina (39:08):
And I think maybe this kind of answers the question I was going to ask
you next, which is how can we help speechtherapists bridge this gap between these
more traditional behavioural analyticapproaches to supporting kids and more
neurodiversity affirming practice?
How can people take this approachto really understanding the kid in
front of them and what they need.

Marge (39:28):
Well, you know, I don't probably have as good an answer as
you because you've thought about itmaybe more from your kind of cultural
perspective, but I would say that thebiggest thing would be To not presume.
Maybe that's it, really.
It's just don't presume.
Maybe that's the same thing as open yourmind, but if, like, you know, I did with

(39:53):
my very first Dylan, and I said to hismom, have you heard that line before?
And she said, well, yeah.
I mean, he says it all thetime, of course, you know.
But, and I actually, Istill have her interview.
from all those years ago, becauseit was just like Barry Prusant.
He said, I talk to families.

(40:16):
So I have a feeling that if we get out ofour little corner where we just, you know,
pat each other on the back and actuallyjust enter the world of where kids live
and the parents who understand kids,that that's probably the first thing.
And then the second thing is,you know, if you go to this UK

(40:38):
conference and listen to a lot of thepresentations, I think everyone there
had the same exact idea that I did.
What I did was I thought,well, I'm not going to just
present the same old, same old.
I'm going to talk to the parentswho, whose children I've used
as case examples in the past.
You might remember one ofthem, Chloe from the past.

(41:01):
So I interviewed her mother,you know, years hence.
And there were several other parentswhose, I mean, several other kids whose
parents I interviewed years hence.
And they'd say, yeah, I mean, talkabout lived experience, like, yeah,
that's what happened, just likeyou said, you know, tell me about,
you know, this play I was in andI'll, I'll tell you the whole thing.

(41:25):
So parents really talking abouttheir kids, not like speculatively,
and I think we do that.
You know, in our field, because we think,oh, there's got to be a theory out there.
Then we've got to look at theresearch and are we going to try it?
Well, I don't know.
We're going to wait for 10 yearsuntil there's another study.
Well, what about after the fact?
And parents are saying, yeah, thisis just exactly what happened.

(41:49):
And so like in Chloe's case, you know, shebegan her, her, you know, gestalt language
development journey after being consideredan ALP, a very failed ALP for a year.
So that's a common, common story.
So if you hear that story.
Then open your mind.
If you have people you can talk to,autistic adults or GLP adults about

(42:12):
their own journey or the parent ofsomeone whose, whose child made that
journey, you know, that's going tojust open your mind right there.
You don't have to believe in a new theory.
You don't have to think that it's logical.
It doesn't matter if itdoesn't seem logical.
It's true.

Adina (42:30):
And it really strikes me that this is a descriptive approach, you
know, you're seeing, what are you seeing?
You're describing what you'reseeing, you're working with who
you're seeing, rather than goingback to some mismatched theory that
doesn't fit a person in front of you.
And I referred earlier tothe other episode that I've
done on this topic with Dr.
Katherine Sanchez.
We talk more about this idea of what isevidence based practice and that it is

(42:55):
so much more than the journal articlesthat have been peer reviewed, or, you
know, it is so much more than that.
And so much of it is workingwith the human in front of you
and noticing, you know, whenyou try something, does it work?

Marge (43:08):
Exactly.
And does it make them happy, or doesit feel like you're, you know, I hate
to say it, but like pulling teethto get them to do the next thing or
memorise the next, you know, promptor, I mean, when you get it right, and
the child is looking at you like you'rejust a sheer genius, because you've

(43:29):
been able to see inside their brain.
Yeah.
You know, everything makes sense.

Adina (43:33):
Especially if they've had so many of those experiences where all they've
been asked to do is be not themselves.
And suddenly they notice a humannoticing them in their humanity.
It does feel obvious now thatI, you know, we talk about
it, but it's not to everyone.

Marge (43:51):
Until they do it.
And that's, that's the trick.
It's just, you know, it's like you say,open your mind to the possibilities.
Give it a go.

Adina (43:59):
I said at the start.
This is what strikes me about youand your this is not just your
professional practice I'm imagining.
I imagine this as part of you as a human.
This open mindedness issomething I absolutely admire.
And I think there is a tendencyfor many, not, not you, many to.
Come at maybe our professional work.
I know I've done it for this many years.

(44:20):
I know what I'm doing and I get it.
And I think your, your curiosity to,understand there may be a different way
and how else we can view the world andsupport people is absolutely admirable.
So I thank you for that.

Marge (44:33):
Well, you're welcome.
And there's always more.
And that's the thing is that Iworked with OTs all those years,
but I never got to work with PTs.
As much.
And so in terms of breath support,I think they're just, there's so
much that we can add to what weare looking at when we're looking
at, like you say, the whole person.

Adina (44:53):
So many angles to take.
is there anything else that you'd liketo share with professionals or parents
who are supporting neurodivergentkids who may be you know, processing
language in gestalts or, or may notbe, or may be mixed processing as well?

Marge (45:08):
That's right.
Very well said.
Let's see.
Is there anything elseI would want to say?
I would say, okay, I suppose thisis something that's not original
with me at all, but when people say.
Would you be willing totreat another child this way?

(45:29):
Would you be willing to treatyour own child this way?
Would you be proud of yourself ifyou treated another child this way?
You know, that's somethingthat we have to think about.
I mean, if we're looking at.
You know, the top down, like where'sthe funding source, I think that a lot
of the, the naysaying comes from thatbecause, you know, we all live in that

(45:51):
world, like, you know, my assessmentisn't going to be, you know, weeks and
weeks and weeks like Marge would wantit to be, you know, but the truth is,
is we're all assessing all the time.
So even if systems sayit's got to be this.
You know, exact formula,we're always assessing.
So we can always ask ourselves thatquestion and we can say, am I willing

(46:16):
to treat another child this way?
If I am going to prompt a childto say what I think would be
really useful for them, would I bewilling to do that in another case?
Whose child am I willing to do that with?
Am I willing to let a child struggleand struggle and struggle, and what is

(46:37):
it about a diagnosis or a label or adescription of a human being that allows
me to do this with one child, but I wouldnever dare to do that with another child.
We have a lot of work to do yet obviously,and you know this very, very well,
but if we're not proud of ourselvesas we do whatever we do with a child.

(47:03):
You know, that would be the time wewanna say, are there alternatives?
And what about this child in front ofme might suggest those alternatives?

Adina (47:12):
I love those messages.
I just want to zoom out and see ourrole as, I mean, I actually personally
refuse the term speech languagepathologist because of all that it brings.
It's a lot of baggage in that term.
And incorrect.
Terminology to me, I want torebrand us as communication and
connection therapists, perhaps.

(47:33):
Maybe that gets closer there.
You know, we're not tryingto get children to speak.
We're not trying to pathologise.
What we're actually trying to dois help people with communication,
relationships, connection.
And I think when you see it from thatperspective, then We can dismantle
all those prescriptive ways of doingtherapy or or diagnosing a child,
you know, we're just helping akid better connect in their world.

(47:57):
Simple.

Marge (47:57):
Absolutely.
It is simple.
And you're absolutely right.
Can I reject the terminology also?

Adina (48:03):
We have to use it sometimes.
I know.

Marge (48:05):
Oh, my.
Well, this has been a delight.
Thank you so much.

Adina (48:09):
No, thank you.
I mean, I feel very honoured.
I feel so excited.
I literally am going to go off and justdream up some big new ideas because
I'm very inspired right now, Marge.
And I know there's going to be.

Marge (48:21):
You asked me what has changed since the book came out 12 years
ago and one thing, and it's exactlywhat you're describing right now.
And one thing that's changed isI've gotten to talk to thousands,
really thousands of people.
And so in our clinic, we saw kids whowere not doing well in other settings.

(48:44):
And so we didn't see the dual processors,like we mentioned, but we also didn't
see kids So we knew that people thatwere going through this, who were going
to do well without physical support.
So we had regulation built in.
We had, I had OT, everythingwas, was built in.
So that did skew theresearch in that regard.

(49:07):
No question.
Did I know that stage three wasimportant and even imperative?
Yes, I did.
I did know that.
But since that time, I would sayone of the things that's really
expanded is I've gotten to hear,you know, literally hundreds, if
not thousands of people's stories.

(49:27):
And so what I've realised is thatStage 3 for a true Gestalt language
processor is absolutely imperative.
And it was glossed over during so muchof the time that people thought they knew
what to do with Gestalts and mitigations.

(49:47):
They thought they could go from, oh,this Gestalt, to maybe some grammar.
And so that's happened in manyplaces because, people thought,
well, we can just rush ahead.
But what I've learned since theresearch is how imperative Stage 3 is.
So I realize this is probably atopic that's beyond the scope of what

(50:07):
we're trying to talk about today.
But, but that's part of the value ofthe whole natural language acquisition,
you know, protocol, if you will, is thatit really does highlight Stage 3, where
kids really do get down to single words.
And, so many of the naysayerpeople are saying, yeah, I

(50:29):
have to have a single word.
This gestalt thing can't be true.
We need a single word.
Well, we do, we do need a single word.
That's right.
That's right.
But are we going to force it yearafter year after year of trying to
prompt it or whatever, or are wegoing to let it happen naturally?
So that, that's one thing that's happenedsince all of that research came out.

(50:52):
A new version of the book needs to happen.

Adina (50:54):
Look forward to seeing the progress of that.
So, so yeah, you're right, there'sso many more directions we could
go and perhaps we can follow upin the future on, a different kind
of direction, different angle.
I am predicting that I'm going tohear a lot from people, but especially
speech therapists who listen to this.
I've got of interesting feedback onprevious episodes and, and I know that
this will be really helpful and important.

(51:16):
So I will happily share that withyou, Marge, when I do get that.
And what I'm inviting theaudience is please do let me
know what you've taken away.
What are you curious about?
What are you You know, any lightbulbs that you've had through this
chat that I've had with Marge.
We're listening, you know, both of us,we're listening to what people want to
hear about and learn about and, and wherethe questions remain with curiosity.

Marge (51:38):
Sounds great.

Adina (51:39):
Thank you so much for your time Marge, we'll keep in touch.
Well, thank you.
All right, take care.

Marge (51:45):
Bye.
Bye all.
Bye.

Adina (51:47):
Thank you so much for sharing this space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.

(52:10):
Have a spectacular day.

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