October 10, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode, I share the results of a recent survey I ran where almost 40 Autistic people shared their perspectives and experiences with eye contact. I created this survey and am sharing the responses to address the question of 'WHY eye contact is no longer an OK goal for Autistic people'.
Listen in to hear the surprising and diverse insights that came through!
Read the full responses from all the participants here: www.playlearnchat.com/eye-contact
I hope that you will share this podcast episode and that blog post as resources to support other people in your life to understand just some of the differing perspectives and experiences that Autistic folks have around eye contact.
I'm keeping this survey open for more responses, so if you're Autistic or you support an Autistic person please feel free to share insights here: www.playlearnchat.com/eye-contact
Podcast Link: https://pod.link/1625478932
Website: www.playlearnchat.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/play.learn.chat
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/play.learn.chat
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:28):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:48):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:08):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
One really big, important shift withneurodiversity of having practice compared
to let's say traditional therapies.
Is this understanding that we don'tneed to or want to have eye contact
(01:30):
as a goal for autistic people.
It's something I talk about oftenand so many other people do as well.
And rather than justkind of nod and accept.
Yes.
Okay.
Let's not do eye contact as a goal.
It's also really, really importantto understand why, why that is.
Why have we stopped?
Hopefully?
forcing prompting and making eyecontact a thing that children
(01:51):
or anyone, any autistic personneeds to aim towards or focus on.
So I did a little bit of research.
I am bringing you the resultsof a survey that I recently did
opening up to my community and toanyone who they shared it with.
Where I've asked for autisticpeople's perspectives and
experiences of eye contact.
I hope an aim is to bring youdiverse perspectives so that
(02:13):
you can understand a range of.
Stories experiences and howautistic individuals experience,
eye contact In their lives.
I received almost 40 responses withamazing detailed depth understanding.
So many surprises in there for me.
Well, I did get, I believe quitea diverse range of perspectives.
It's maybe not diverse enough.
(02:35):
And what I mean by that is this surveywent out to pretty much my audience.
Whether that was Instagrampeople who received my emails.
Facebook and so on.
In my audience, I have quite a lotof health professionals, some are
autistic many, a late diagnosed.
There are quite a lot of femalesin my audience are quite a lot
of Australians in my audience.
So I do expect that the sample that you'vegot here is not exactly representative of.
(03:01):
All autistic people.
It's representative of some of theautistic people in my community
who knew about my questionnaire.
That said,
I'm really happy to say this afew responses from teenagers.
I've got some responses from people ofall different ages across the world,
but I think I would love to hear evenmore diverse perspectives, including.
You know, from more people who are.
(03:22):
Not female late diagnosedprofessionals like myself.
What I'm saying is if that isyou, you're very welcome to
contribute your perspective as well.
And if that is not you and youare autistic or you support an
artistic person, I would love tohear further more diverse, autistic
perspectives about eye contact.
And I will continue toshare these overtime.
All the perspectives of valid andI'd be especially interested to
(03:43):
hear perspectives of nonwhite folks.
Non-speaking folks.
Autistic folks withintellectual disability.
And folks with otherco-occurring disabilities.
So please do keep sharing thisquestionnaire and the resource.
And I hope over time, we cancontinue to get an even deeper
body of diverse perspectivesto keep sharing with the world.
Now there's two ways that I'mpresenting this, the full responses.
(04:06):
Exactly.
As everybody shared with me is on myblog and you'll find it on my website.
playlearnchat.com/eye-contact.
That's a Y E as in the eyes on your face.
. So that is a resource that youare so welcome to share with other
people in your world, world, yourboss , parents that you work with
with your partner or whoever it is.
(04:27):
That you feel needs a bitmore background to understand.
Y eye contact is unnecessary and perhapseven harmful for autistic people.
If you were one of these people whocontributed to the survey, I really,
really appreciate your time, youreffort, the spoons that you spent,
responding and sharing your perspectives.
I invited people to anonymize themselvesif they wanted to or share any part
(04:50):
of who they are, either the name andinitial and nickname, uh, how old
they are, where they are, if theywanted to share the Instagram handle.
So each person has beenattributed to, they had comment
in the way that they chose.
Now I would like to keepthis open in future.
So while this is my big first presentationof these insights and perspectives.
If you didn't get a chance to respondand you're an autistic person, or if
(05:14):
you support an autistic person that youthink would be interested in contributing
their perspective to this data set.
You find the foam on that website?
Play land chat.com/i hyphen contact.
And I will continue to take responsesin, I'm not sure at what point
in the future, I will update thisdata set, but I will revisit this.
Maybe it will be in a podcastepisode or maybe it will be adding
(05:35):
to the voices on the website.
Full of this podcast episode, I'm notable to read out everybody's comments.
So I really would encourage you togo and visit my website, to see all
of the comments that people left.
What I've done with this datais to analyze it for themes.
So I ended up coming out with7 key themes that were talked
about across all the comments.
(05:57):
And then as I picked the keypoints for each person's comment
that I'm going to share with you.
I figured out which theme was kindof most prevalent in that comment.
Many of the comments span manydifferent themes and you'll hear that.
Let me first share with you the themesthat I came up with, and then I will
go into some of the highlights or Idon't want to call them highlights.
The whole thing was a highlight.
It was all very, very interesting and.
(06:18):
Uh, to make a possible pun eyeopening.
So, the eight themes.
We're talking about discomfort and pain.
Sensory experiences, emotionalimpacts of eye contact.
Masking.
Coping and compensation strategies.
The impact of relationships, meaningsomeone having a different experience
of eye-contact depending on who theywere having the eye contact with.
(06:40):
And experiences of therapy and training.
Kicking off with a themeof discomfort and pain.
My first comment is from Stephage 35 from Victoria Australia.
She is at S G R occupationaltherapy on Instagram.
She said.
I always found the contact reallyuncomfortable unless the person
was someone very intimate to me.
My parents' daughter, husband seemed tobe okay to have fleeting eye contact.
(07:04):
But other people I'm not comfortable with.
It feels so painful.
If I force it, I don't anymore.
Now I explain openly to peoplethat I'm listening to them and
then I'm able to attend to thembetter when I'm looking elsewhere.
During doodling, fiddling, et cetera.
Kate 33 from Sydney, Australia.
She's at Kate K a I t.tattoo on Instagram.
(07:24):
She says eye contact could feelpainful and incredibly frustrating.
I can be scrolling on my phone asa steam or engaging in my special
interests while someone talks to meand they tell me to look at them.
Which makes me just feel angry inside.
And in my mind, I'm waitingfor it to just be over with.
It can feel intrusive and aggressive,almost like a slap in the face.
When I'm totally relaxed, likewith my kids, I'll look them
in the eye with so much joy.
(07:45):
And it can feel overwhelmingand make me cry.
S H aged in their fifties in the UK says.
I don't mind, brief eye contact,but really feel uncomfortable.
If someone is looking at me formore than say, 10 seconds, max, I'll
make eye contact for a few seconds,max, and then have to look away.
I feel really under thespotlight and generally like
they have staring into my soul.
And this is really interesting.
(08:06):
The soul theme people staringin into my soul has come up in
quite a few of the comments thatwas really interesting to me.
Jess 22 from Kent in the UK.
She is at elephant mouse, M O US . Number three on Instagram.
Jess says.
eye contact makes me feelvery exposed uncomfortable.
It feels like someone is staring intomy cell and judging me for everything.
(08:27):
I am.
It's too intense.
The experience is horrible.
I don't feel physicalpain, but emotional pain.
I've told myself to look atpeople's noses to avoid that
intense, uncomfortable feeling.
But when I look away frompeople, the relief is so real.
My whole body relaxes.
Nicole 33 from Perth, Australia says.
eye contact has always beena hard experience for me.
(08:48):
It makes me feel super uncomfortable.
And I find I've always had toforce myself to do it and to remind
myself, to look away sometimes.
And then back.
I find if I'm comfortable with someoneit's a lot easier, but I do feel more
comfortable when talking to someoneand not maintaining eye contact.
Rachel Hazelwood 54 from Cardiff in Wales,says I was born in 1970 and was trained
(09:09):
slash forced to endure eye contact.
I hate it.
It makes me feel so exposed andvulnerable and is actually painful.
I can tolerate it for short bursts, buthave sneaky ways to give myself respite.
Such as looking at the bridge of aperson's nose or taking long slow blinks.
I would love to live in a worldwhere eye contact wasn't expected.
I love hanging out with other autisticpeople because we just talk and understand
(09:30):
each other's different use of facialexpressions, body language, and gestures.
I absolutely love that,that vision of the future.
And my hope is that thiscan be part of that body of.
Work that goes to support the whole world.
Understanding that eye contactcan be an optional experience.
And not a necessity for communication.
Imogen H age 30 fromCanberra Australia says.
(09:52):
eye contact makes me feel pain.
It feels like itchy.
eyeballs held breath, tight chest,and an intense concentration.
On an aspect of an interactionthat adds nothing to the intention.
From a cultural perspective.
I think forced eye contact is rude . Whatother form of social communication would
be tolerated as polite if it caused harm.
Forced eye contact makes me feel likesomeone is trying to dominate me.
(10:13):
It feels like a power play evenin well-intentioned people.
It impacts my communication because Iended up running all sorts of contingency
plans in my head, trying to spot whatthe person actually wants from me.
Instead of being able to use my wordsand other forms of communication
to understand perspectives.
Vicky 39 from Chichester, UK.
And I hope I said that, right.
Vicky says.
(10:34):
I find eye contact, hot and uncomfortablein a lot of situations, but most often
in personal one-to-one situations.
I also find it hard to think andmake eye contact at the same time.
So I tend to look up or away when I'mthinking of talking about something.
I make an effort to make eyecontact at work when engaging
with colleagues or clients.
But I have to think about itas in when to look, how long to
look for and when to look away.
(10:55):
Sarah 45 in Jalong.
Australia says eye contactfeels excruciating for me.
Most interactions with neurotypicalsrequire me to maintain eye contact
at the expense of my mental entity.
And impacts my ability to regulate myself.
The longer I'm requiredto maintain eye contact.
The more recovery timeI will need afterwards.
That is deeply important.
(11:15):
Many of the experiences thatpeople shared and my own as well.
Uh, that we can do eye contact,but there is a cost there's an
expense, and it's not at theexpense of the neuro-typical person.
It's at the expense ofthe autistic individual.
The energetic cost that mentalhealth toll can be really hidden.
And we need to talk about it.
We need to address it.
We need to understand it.
(11:37):
On our next theme of sensory experiences.
Here's what some people shared.
K H aged 48 from Melbourne.
Australia said I lip read.
Not because I'm deaf, but because ithelps me process auditory stimuli.
I know that I'm supposed toregularly look in people's eyes.
So I remember to look at regularly.
No one taught me this.
I just do it.
I am age 38 from Australia, saysI struggled to hear and know
(12:00):
what the other person is saying.
When I focus on good eye contact.
I will say there were quite a lotof comments that were similar to
that , in a lot of other people's.
Contributions as well.
Anonymous age 63 fromQueensland, Australia says.
I'm hearing impaired also.
So I look like I'm giving eye contact,but I'm actually reading lips,
eye contact is welcome and okay.
For me when I feel understood, ifnot, I am not giving that much of
(12:23):
me to accommodate the other person.
I think what's interestingis you'll hear a theme across
some of the comments as well.
Of.
People taking control, autistic folksgetting more conscious about the
impact of eye contact on themselves.
And.
Self-advocating.
Making choices about how they do eyecontact or how they tell other people
about what eye contact is for themor how they will or won't use it.
(12:46):
Which is very important, but at thesame time, If there wasn't an issue
to start with, we wouldn't have toself-advocate, but you know, there's
always case for self advocacy.
So that's interesting tohear these perspectives too.
Michael aged 49 from the gold coast.
He's at the deep dive AAU on Instagram.
And he's got a podcast, the deep dive,which is very much worth the lesson.
(13:06):
He's excellent on the microphone.
And so Michael submitted a video response.
I'm going to play it for you andyou can hear Michael's perspective.
Around eye contact.
Okay, well, how does myeye contact affect me?
Well, I may look a bit weird witheye contact, looking in different
directions, looking at when I'm tryingto think about things, and trying
to put together thoughts into words.
(13:26):
I may look down to the ground sometimeswhen I'm trying to socialise, or my neck
may look at a funny position when I talk.
If it is a subject I'm reallyengaged about, I try and look
around the face area, but sometimesI cannot tell bored or not.
So that's how I show eye contact.
Another person shared.
When I make direct eye contact withsomeone, it feels like I'm saying
(13:47):
everything about them all at once.
Well, then my facial expressions,what they are thinking and feeling and
turning it into a hyper empathic way.
It's a lot to process, especially if I'mtrying to focus on what we're both saying.
I'm late self identified clinician andit blew my mind to realize that not
everyone is constantly aware of whatthey are doing with their eye contact
in the same way that I've always been.
(14:08):
On the theme of emotionalimpact of eye contact.
Debbie from Australia shared.
I've often wondered where thelack of eye contact has been.
The reason why sometimes I wasnever considered for jobs, but
there was never any feedback.
So I can't be sure.
I'm often aware of my lack of eyecontact and social situations.
And I think it gets worse insome situations than others.
I've often wondered whether it's relatedto how regulated my nervous system is my
(14:30):
emotional state slash relational safety.
I've often felt veryself-conscious about it.
A K aged 7 from Queensland.
Australia has shared.
In response to my question ofhow does eye contact make you
feel in different situations?
And casual, happy contexts,eye contact is fine.
And part of sensory exploration.
In contexts of criticism, reviewpsychological pressure, eye
(14:53):
contact, presses, trauma buttonsto flee freeze, or bite back.
Continued trauma precious, such asbullying leads to psychosocial safety
collapse, dopamine loss, and potentialincapacity to talk, operate, et cetera.
I E a deep trauma outcome.
And now the person shared.
Making eye contact, especially inemotionally intense interactions, feels
(15:13):
like everything sensitive and privateabout myself is written on my eyeballs
and the longer I make eye contact, themore secrets they can steal from me.
Despite this, I mostly alwaysmake eye contact because I feel
a sense of safety in masking.
But noticeably different feels unsafe.
So either way I'm feelingunsafe in an interaction.
It's a trap.
Tash shared.
Lack of eye contact does not bother me.
(15:35):
It bothers other people.
My mom used to feel really offendedwhen I didn't give her eye contact.
Another person shared.
After a number of commentssaying I have an intense gaze.
It has made me paranoid aboutwhere to look and how much to make.
eye contacted itselfthough is not my issue.
It's what goes along with it.
When you aren't doing itin a neuro-typical way.
On the topic of masking.
(15:56):
Ash age 38 from Australia shared.
Being taught as a child that it'snecessary or polite means that I
will often try to make eye contactwith people, despite it feeling
deeply uncomfortable for me.
When I have to focus on making theappropriate level of eye contact,
not too intense, not too little,or they'll think you're shifty.
I find it much harder to use mywords and communicate effectively.
(16:17):
Jessica O 30 from lakeMacquarie, Australia.
She's at.
aussie autism family on Instagram.
She shares.
I always thought I was okay witheye contact until I realized I've
been masking all these years andwould put strategies in place to use
eye contact in a neuro-typical way.
I'm always thinking about how much eyecontact I give . When someone is talking
to me, I will look into their eyes.
Then after a while, I will realize thatI'm actually staring at them for too long.
(16:40):
I do this to better understandwhat they're saying.
I prefer sitting side by sideto people while I was talking.
This allows me to look at what's goingon in front of me while talking . And not
have to stare right into someone's eyes.
SP aged 53 from the UK shared.
My autism assessment said that Imade normal in inverted commas.
Eye contact.
But I think that I've spentyears learning how to do it.
(17:01):
I wasn't diagnosed until I was 52.
When I start to think about it,I get confused and uncomfortable
and have to break eye contact.
I was told when I was younger, that Istayed at people, but not in the eyes.
JP age 26 from Sydney.
Australia said eye contact is interesting.
I recently learned that the way Ishow eye contact is a form of masking.
(17:22):
I feel really comfortable providingeye contact when I start my sentences.
And then as I'm finishing the sentence,if I have a lot to say, I'll often
look to the side or down at thematerials that I'm referring to.
As a speech pathologist, itwas taught that eye contact is
important for communication.
But I realized that it was stressful forme and my client to try and force it.
once I leaned into not forcingit, I realized that social
(17:42):
interactions are much smoother.
Nathaniel aged 18, turning 19 fromMalanie in Queensland Australia says.
I usually try to make eye contact,especially in formal circumstances because
it was what I was taught in therapyis attained before I was diagnosed.
If I feel like I'm masking,well, eye contact isn't as bad,
but masking can be really hard.
(18:02):
And interpersonal conversation.
I sometimes use eye contactand sometimes don't.
But I always feel really guiltywhen I don't use it because I
feel rude for ignoring someoneand not meeting their eyes.
It's a lot better when I'mwith other autistic people, but
I still feel a little guilt.
I do make more eye contact with peoplewho I'm romantically interested in,
because I think being vulnerableis part of romantic affection.
And thus making eye contact is meremoving the barrier of all the
(18:25):
anxiety and just letting myself be.
Plus sometimes people'seyes are really pretty.
I actually love all of that.
There's so many great insights, but thisidea is something I relate to as well.
Sometimes the sensory experienceof looking into someone's
eyes do actually look at the.
eye itself.
It's really fascinating.
And I can get very absorbed inlooking at the colors and the
(18:46):
details in somebody's eyeball withoutactually following the conversation.
S M S from Queensland, Australia,aged 41 shared, forcing myself to meet
the other person's eyes along withother appropriate in inverted commas.
Signs of attention is distractingfor me and often means I
miss what they're saying.
I can't keep my train of thought whenI'm focused on maintaining eye contact.
(19:10):
Sarah age 27 fromBrisbane, Australia shared.
If I'm having a general conversationwith someone where I feel I have to
mask to neuro-typical numbs, I will trymy best to give as much eye contact as
possible without staring into their soul.
Half of my mind is focused onwhether I'm blinking too much, or
if I should look away for a momentto make sure I'm not making them
uncomfortable with too much eye contact.
(19:30):
It also impacts my ability to retrievewords, provide well-structured sentences
and retrieve memories accurately.
I also find it extremely hard todescribe something I'm talking about.
If I can't look up in a way toa blank space, for example, a
roof will, or the sky to try tovisualize what I'm thinking about.
As a child, I used to get a lot of promptsto focus on people when they were talking.
(19:50):
With my family lovingly referringto my inattentive moments
as oh, butterfly moments.
And correctly.
So sometimes me looking away was anunintentional distraction of thoughts
and disengagement with the conversation.
However, sometimes looking awaywould help me visualize or process
what others were telling me.
So it was difficult as a child tonot get upset when I was listening.
The teachers or familymembers would assume that.
(20:10):
I wasn't, because I had looked away.
On the topic of coping andcompensation strategies.
Now you've already heard quite a few.
Peppered throughout the other comments.
And here I'll share a few more thatspecifically talk about these strategies.
Kate M from Sydney, Australia shared.
The way I experienced it is that.
It is mainly distractingfrom the conversation.
And I have a lot ofthoughts about eye contact.
(20:31):
The analogy I use at work is like, ifsomeone had a little flashlight next
to their eyes and expected you to makeeye contact with them, it blink a lot.
I want to look away and think,wow, that light is so bright.
And wow.
Can it just not.
And also get a small headache and not paymuch attention to the actual conversation.
That's exactly what it's like.
I tried using my phone torch toshow someone this exact thing
once, but they didn't like it.
(20:52):
Maybe that's because it was uncomfortable.
Maybe that was the point.
I'm not sure yet if it'sa good teaching tool.
Kate.
I think that is fascinating.
What an interesting idea toactually turn your experience into.
Something quite tangible that youmight be able to show somebody that
somebody else might end up perceivingas a version of your experience.
Cool experiment.
Thank you for sharing that.
(21:13):
Anyway, Kate goes on.
Now that I know all this I've stoppedgoing to restaurants or cafes where you
sit right across from the other person.
I really disliked that.
So usually I'll go for a walk withfriends or husband, et cetera.
If we want to catch up, talk with athird object that we both look at.
I sit in a corner booth at a cafe andalways try to be 90 degrees, et cetera.
It doesn't come up that much as adistressing thing, but I've tailored my
(21:34):
life around having comfy interactions.
Kim age 31 from Australia.
She's at creativity andbeyond OT on Instagram.
Kim has shared.
I regularly avoid eye contactin regular situations.
I a supermarket caches andwe'll make the perceived wrong
eye contact with your friends.
For example, they had bracesand I'd always be looking
(21:54):
at them and not their face.
I regularly look away to speakand stare in multiple directions
as it helps keep my focus.
S P H 30 plus in Melbourne,Australia shares.
As a healthcare worker, I'm awarethat some patients and family members
prefer, eye contact to show thatI care and I'm paying attention.
I use tricks to look at the sides oftheir eyes or the middle of their eyes.
(22:15):
People with eye makeup is easy as I lookat their eyebrows, lids and lashes, I
think because I'm in this situation, Iam the professional in the power dynamic.
It's a lot easier to do and I canmake eye contact as part of my routine
spiel to build rapport and connection.
Sometimes though, if I need toconcentrate on the situation eye
contact is too hard to manage.
Eye contact is exhaustingand uses a lot of focus.
It feels uncomfortable.
(22:36):
Like I'm staring at something.
I shouldn't see.
It's the same feeling slashreaction that you get when you
first glance at a disabled personor someone different to your race.
And in brackets as a disabled brownperson, I know the feeling well.
And.
I know to look away quickly.
Hannah age 33 from Sydney, Australia.
She is at HannastaciaX on Instagram.
(22:57):
I tend to enjoy one on onewalks in nature with people.
So I'm walking parallel with them,which means no, or very little eye
contact while also regulating ona walk and connecting with nature.
I'll often have a little voicein my head stating have I been
holding eye contact too long?
Wait, I need to make eye contact.
I definitely relate to that over thinking.
How much is the correctamount of eye contact?
(23:18):
How is it supposed to look.
And anonymous coming to from the USAshared growing up, I was supposed to
make eye contact you to the social norm.
As an adult.
I've chosen not to.
Well, it might be awkward for theother person at first, getting
accustomed to the lack of eye contact.
It's freeing for me.
It helps strengthen therelationship because I can be
authentic and open up more.
(23:38):
Plus I can focus on what they'resaying better, and it reduces the
likelihood of being overstimulated.
On the impact of relationships.
Winston aged 16 from Sydney, Australia.
At Winston junior DeSilva,D E Z I L V a on Instagram.
Winston shares.
I, as a matter of fact, actually lovemaking eye contact with people I really
(24:00):
trust or want to be intimate with.
It's a similar rule to touch.
I'm not really a touchy person except withclose friends and people I trust, I don't
force it, but I don't mind or want it.
Sam aged 32 from Virginia in the USA.
In my work with autistic kids, I foundthat some will have moments of holding
very intense eye contact with mewhile being pretty close to my face.
(24:20):
Often these seem to be my kidswith limited spoken communication.
And in those moments, there isan incredible sense of trust.
And like a whole conversation has had.
ES aged 14 from the USA shares.
For me, eye contact is an intimate action.
I do like to make eye contact with a fewpeople in my life that I'm really close
to, but it's uncomfortable to make an eyecontact with strangers, acquaintances.
(24:41):
Most people I interactwith on a daily basis.
Mel aged 34 from Melbourne Australia.
She's at Neurodivergent dotreflections on Instagram.
Mel shares.
The only person I'm more comfortablewith more extended eye contact with
is my husband probably due to thosefeelings around intensity and intimacy.
Even then it can feel like a lot.
(25:01):
I've got to have the energy for it.
Which feels kind of funny, to behonest, needing entity, to do something
that so many people take for granted.
And our final theme is experiencesof therapy and training.
Ana aged 34 from Australia sharedthis incredible reflection.
A story from childhood.
At one time when I was a child, ateacher, one to, to explain to me how to
(25:23):
do a task and came over to talk to me.
She got offended.
I was ignoring her.
Because I was avoiding eye contact.
I'm forced me to hold eye contactwith her while she was speaking.
I felt humiliated,overwhelmed, and terrified.
And to this day, currentlyI'm in my thirties.
I remember how bad itwas and how awful I felt.
and wonder what did she possiblyget from forcing an eight year
old girl to look her in the eye?
(25:44):
What sort of adult has such afragile sense of self-respect that
it can be threatened by an eightyear old's lack of eye contact.
I still feel confused and hurtwhen I think about it, because
for me it was so intenselyconfronting and also so unnecessary.
It feels so unfair that I get atraumatic memory for the rest of
my life because she couldn't dealwith 10 seconds without eye contact.
That interaction is why Ilearnt to mask, so I would never
(26:05):
have to deal with that again.
K shares.
I've not had any therapy about this,but did attend an annoying social skills
class at uni that was really designed tobuild more understanding of Australian
social norms for international students.
They made us make eye contact, which wasannoying because I know how to do that.
Not because it's uncomfortable.
I do notice that I really hateeye contact and a bit my gaze when
(26:26):
I'm distressed or dysregulated.
Outside of moments of distress.
I seek eye contact to make sure Ican read my conversational partners
and feel connected with them.
It's a really important observation,that eye contact norms are very,
very different across cultures.
And across sub cultures.
So while Kay was asked to participate ina social skills class to fit in more with
(26:47):
Australian social norms, I'm not sure whowrote the book on Australian social norms.
It does make me wonder whether weAustralians are on the higher end
of expectations for eye contact.
There were certainly cultures where eyecontact is viewed in different ways,
including being an important markerof power and respect and, there's
so many different interpretations,so it's not a universal given.
(27:09):
Anyway, I digress.
Let's go into our last comment.
So anonymous 63 from Australiashared I was in my thirties in a
class on small business management.
One of the tasks was to sit oppositea person and speak to them on a
subject whilst looking them in the eye.
I couldn't do it.
It was extremely uncomfortableand I started to cry.
I don't think I realized to whatextent I had avoided looking at people.
(27:31):
There is so many moreimportant, essential insights.
So I really, really hope thatyou will go to check out the full
array of comments that people left.
And again, if there's something.
That you as an autistic personor an autistic person in your
life would like to contribute.
On this topic, please head overto playlearnchat.com/eye-contact.
(27:53):
And you can join inthe conversation there.
I hope that you will share thispodcast episode and that blog post
as resources to supportother people in your life.
To understand just some of the differingperspectives and experiences that
autistic folks have around eye contact.
Thank you so much for sharingthis space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
(28:15):
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day!
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:28):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:48):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:08):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
One really big, important shift withneurodiversity of having practice compared
to let's say traditional therapies.
Is this understanding that we don'tneed to or want to have eye contact
(01:30):
as a goal for autistic people.
It's something I talk about oftenand so many other people do as well.
And rather than justkind of nod and accept.
Yes.
Okay.
Let's not do eye contact as a goal.
It's also really, really importantto understand why, why that is.
Why have we stopped?
Hopefully?
forcing prompting and making eyecontact a thing that children
(01:51):
or anyone, any autistic personneeds to aim towards or focus on.
So I did a little bit of research.
I am bringing you the resultsof a survey that I recently did
opening up to my community and toanyone who they shared it with.
Where I've asked for autisticpeople's perspectives and
experiences of eye contact.
I hope an aim is to bring youdiverse perspectives so that
(02:13):
you can understand a range of.
Stories experiences and howautistic individuals experience,
eye contact In their lives.
I received almost 40 responses withamazing detailed depth understanding.
So many surprises in there for me.
Well, I did get, I believe quitea diverse range of perspectives.
It's maybe not diverse enough.
(02:35):
And what I mean by that is this surveywent out to pretty much my audience.
Whether that was Instagrampeople who received my emails.
Facebook and so on.
In my audience, I have quite a lotof health professionals, some are
autistic many, a late diagnosed.
There are quite a lot of femalesin my audience are quite a lot
of Australians in my audience.
So I do expect that the sample that you'vegot here is not exactly representative of.
(03:01):
All autistic people.
It's representative of some of theautistic people in my community
who knew about my questionnaire.
That said,
I'm really happy to say this afew responses from teenagers.
I've got some responses from people ofall different ages across the world,
but I think I would love to hear evenmore diverse perspectives, including.
You know, from more people who are.
(03:22):
Not female late diagnosedprofessionals like myself.
What I'm saying is if that isyou, you're very welcome to
contribute your perspective as well.
And if that is not you and youare autistic or you support an
artistic person, I would love tohear further more diverse, autistic
perspectives about eye contact.
And I will continue toshare these overtime.
All the perspectives of valid andI'd be especially interested to
(03:43):
hear perspectives of nonwhite folks.
Non-speaking folks.
Autistic folks withintellectual disability.
And folks with otherco-occurring disabilities.
So please do keep sharing thisquestionnaire and the resource.
And I hope over time, we cancontinue to get an even deeper
body of diverse perspectivesto keep sharing with the world.
Now there's two ways that I'mpresenting this, the full responses.
(04:06):
Exactly.
As everybody shared with me is on myblog and you'll find it on my website.
playlearnchat.com/eye-contact.
That's a Y E as in the eyes on your face.
. So that is a resource that youare so welcome to share with other
people in your world, world, yourboss , parents that you work with
with your partner or whoever it is.
(04:27):
That you feel needs a bitmore background to understand.
Y eye contact is unnecessary and perhapseven harmful for autistic people.
If you were one of these people whocontributed to the survey, I really,
really appreciate your time, youreffort, the spoons that you spent,
responding and sharing your perspectives.
I invited people to anonymize themselvesif they wanted to or share any part
(04:50):
of who they are, either the name andinitial and nickname, uh, how old
they are, where they are, if theywanted to share the Instagram handle.
So each person has beenattributed to, they had comment
in the way that they chose.
Now I would like to keepthis open in future.
So while this is my big first presentationof these insights and perspectives.
If you didn't get a chance to respondand you're an autistic person, or if
(05:14):
you support an autistic person that youthink would be interested in contributing
their perspective to this data set.
You find the foam on that website?
Play land chat.com/i hyphen contact.
And I will continue to take responsesin, I'm not sure at what point
in the future, I will update thisdata set, but I will revisit this.
Maybe it will be in a podcastepisode or maybe it will be adding
(05:35):
to the voices on the website.
Full of this podcast episode, I'm notable to read out everybody's comments.
So I really would encourage you togo and visit my website, to see all
of the comments that people left.
What I've done with this datais to analyze it for themes.
So I ended up coming out with7 key themes that were talked
about across all the comments.
(05:57):
And then as I picked the keypoints for each person's comment
that I'm going to share with you.
I figured out which theme was kindof most prevalent in that comment.
Many of the comments span manydifferent themes and you'll hear that.
Let me first share with you the themesthat I came up with, and then I will
go into some of the highlights or Idon't want to call them highlights.
The whole thing was a highlight.
It was all very, very interesting and.
(06:18):
Uh, to make a possible pun eyeopening.
So, the eight themes.
We're talking about discomfort and pain.
Sensory experiences, emotionalimpacts of eye contact.
Masking.
Coping and compensation strategies.
The impact of relationships, meaningsomeone having a different experience
of eye-contact depending on who theywere having the eye contact with.
(06:40):
And experiences of therapy and training.
Kicking off with a themeof discomfort and pain.
My first comment is from Stephage 35 from Victoria Australia.
She is at S G R occupationaltherapy on Instagram.
She said.
I always found the contact reallyuncomfortable unless the person
was someone very intimate to me.
My parents' daughter, husband seemed tobe okay to have fleeting eye contact.
(07:04):
But other people I'm not comfortable with.
It feels so painful.
If I force it, I don't anymore.
Now I explain openly to peoplethat I'm listening to them and
then I'm able to attend to thembetter when I'm looking elsewhere.
During doodling, fiddling, et cetera.
Kate 33 from Sydney, Australia.
She's at Kate K a I t.tattoo on Instagram.
(07:24):
She says eye contact could feelpainful and incredibly frustrating.
I can be scrolling on my phone asa steam or engaging in my special
interests while someone talks to meand they tell me to look at them.
Which makes me just feel angry inside.
And in my mind, I'm waitingfor it to just be over with.
It can feel intrusive and aggressive,almost like a slap in the face.
When I'm totally relaxed, likewith my kids, I'll look them
in the eye with so much joy.
(07:45):
And it can feel overwhelmingand make me cry.
S H aged in their fifties in the UK says.
I don't mind, brief eye contact,but really feel uncomfortable.
If someone is looking at me formore than say, 10 seconds, max, I'll
make eye contact for a few seconds,max, and then have to look away.
I feel really under thespotlight and generally like
they have staring into my soul.
And this is really interesting.
(08:06):
The soul theme people staringin into my soul has come up in
quite a few of the comments thatwas really interesting to me.
Jess 22 from Kent in the UK.
She is at elephant mouse, M O US . Number three on Instagram.
Jess says.
eye contact makes me feelvery exposed uncomfortable.
It feels like someone is staring intomy cell and judging me for everything.
(08:27):
I am.
It's too intense.
The experience is horrible.
I don't feel physicalpain, but emotional pain.
I've told myself to look atpeople's noses to avoid that
intense, uncomfortable feeling.
But when I look away frompeople, the relief is so real.
My whole body relaxes.
Nicole 33 from Perth, Australia says.
eye contact has always beena hard experience for me.
(08:48):
It makes me feel super uncomfortable.
And I find I've always had toforce myself to do it and to remind
myself, to look away sometimes.
And then back.
I find if I'm comfortable with someoneit's a lot easier, but I do feel more
comfortable when talking to someoneand not maintaining eye contact.
Rachel Hazelwood 54 from Cardiff in Wales,says I was born in 1970 and was trained
(09:09):
slash forced to endure eye contact.
I hate it.
It makes me feel so exposed andvulnerable and is actually painful.
I can tolerate it for short bursts, buthave sneaky ways to give myself respite.
Such as looking at the bridge of aperson's nose or taking long slow blinks.
I would love to live in a worldwhere eye contact wasn't expected.
I love hanging out with other autisticpeople because we just talk and understand
(09:30):
each other's different use of facialexpressions, body language, and gestures.
I absolutely love that,that vision of the future.
And my hope is that thiscan be part of that body of.
Work that goes to support the whole world.
Understanding that eye contactcan be an optional experience.
And not a necessity for communication.
Imogen H age 30 fromCanberra Australia says.
(09:52):
eye contact makes me feel pain.
It feels like itchy.
eyeballs held breath, tight chest,and an intense concentration.
On an aspect of an interactionthat adds nothing to the intention.
From a cultural perspective.
I think forced eye contact is rude . Whatother form of social communication would
be tolerated as polite if it caused harm.
Forced eye contact makes me feel likesomeone is trying to dominate me.
(10:13):
It feels like a power play evenin well-intentioned people.
It impacts my communication because Iended up running all sorts of contingency
plans in my head, trying to spot whatthe person actually wants from me.
Instead of being able to use my wordsand other forms of communication
to understand perspectives.
Vicky 39 from Chichester, UK.
And I hope I said that, right.
Vicky says.
(10:34):
I find eye contact, hot and uncomfortablein a lot of situations, but most often
in personal one-to-one situations.
I also find it hard to think andmake eye contact at the same time.
So I tend to look up or away when I'mthinking of talking about something.
I make an effort to make eyecontact at work when engaging
with colleagues or clients.
But I have to think about itas in when to look, how long to
look for and when to look away.
(10:55):
Sarah 45 in Jalong.
Australia says eye contactfeels excruciating for me.
Most interactions with neurotypicalsrequire me to maintain eye contact
at the expense of my mental entity.
And impacts my ability to regulate myself.
The longer I'm requiredto maintain eye contact.
The more recovery timeI will need afterwards.
That is deeply important.
(11:15):
Many of the experiences thatpeople shared and my own as well.
Uh, that we can do eye contact,but there is a cost there's an
expense, and it's not at theexpense of the neuro-typical person.
It's at the expense ofthe autistic individual.
The energetic cost that mentalhealth toll can be really hidden.
And we need to talk about it.
We need to address it.
We need to understand it.
(11:37):
On our next theme of sensory experiences.
Here's what some people shared.
K H aged 48 from Melbourne.
Australia said I lip read.
Not because I'm deaf, but because ithelps me process auditory stimuli.
I know that I'm supposed toregularly look in people's eyes.
So I remember to look at regularly.
No one taught me this.
I just do it.
I am age 38 from Australia, saysI struggled to hear and know
(12:00):
what the other person is saying.
When I focus on good eye contact.
I will say there were quite a lotof comments that were similar to
that , in a lot of other people's.
Contributions as well.
Anonymous age 63 fromQueensland, Australia says.
I'm hearing impaired also.
So I look like I'm giving eye contact,but I'm actually reading lips,
eye contact is welcome and okay.
For me when I feel understood, ifnot, I am not giving that much of
(12:23):
me to accommodate the other person.
I think what's interestingis you'll hear a theme across
some of the comments as well.
Of.
People taking control, autistic folksgetting more conscious about the
impact of eye contact on themselves.
And.
Self-advocating.
Making choices about how they do eyecontact or how they tell other people
about what eye contact is for themor how they will or won't use it.
(12:46):
Which is very important, but at thesame time, If there wasn't an issue
to start with, we wouldn't have toself-advocate, but you know, there's
always case for self advocacy.
So that's interesting tohear these perspectives too.
Michael aged 49 from the gold coast.
He's at the deep dive AAU on Instagram.
And he's got a podcast, the deep dive,which is very much worth the lesson.
(13:06):
He's excellent on the microphone.
And so Michael submitted a video response.
I'm going to play it for you andyou can hear Michael's perspective.
Around eye contact.
Okay, well, how does myeye contact affect me?
Well, I may look a bit weird witheye contact, looking in different
directions, looking at when I'm tryingto think about things, and trying
to put together thoughts into words.
(13:26):
I may look down to the ground sometimeswhen I'm trying to socialise, or my neck
may look at a funny position when I talk.
If it is a subject I'm reallyengaged about, I try and look
around the face area, but sometimesI cannot tell bored or not.
So that's how I show eye contact.
Another person shared.
When I make direct eye contact withsomeone, it feels like I'm saying
(13:47):
everything about them all at once.
Well, then my facial expressions,what they are thinking and feeling and
turning it into a hyper empathic way.
It's a lot to process, especially if I'mtrying to focus on what we're both saying.
I'm late self identified clinician andit blew my mind to realize that not
everyone is constantly aware of whatthey are doing with their eye contact
in the same way that I've always been.
(14:08):
On the theme of emotionalimpact of eye contact.
Debbie from Australia shared.
I've often wondered where thelack of eye contact has been.
The reason why sometimes I wasnever considered for jobs, but
there was never any feedback.
So I can't be sure.
I'm often aware of my lack of eyecontact and social situations.
And I think it gets worse insome situations than others.
I've often wondered whether it's relatedto how regulated my nervous system is my
(14:30):
emotional state slash relational safety.
I've often felt veryself-conscious about it.
A K aged 7 from Queensland.
Australia has shared.
In response to my question ofhow does eye contact make you
feel in different situations?
And casual, happy contexts,eye contact is fine.
And part of sensory exploration.
In contexts of criticism, reviewpsychological pressure, eye
(14:53):
contact, presses, trauma buttonsto flee freeze, or bite back.
Continued trauma precious, such asbullying leads to psychosocial safety
collapse, dopamine loss, and potentialincapacity to talk, operate, et cetera.
I E a deep trauma outcome.
And now the person shared.
Making eye contact, especially inemotionally intense interactions, feels
(15:13):
like everything sensitive and privateabout myself is written on my eyeballs
and the longer I make eye contact, themore secrets they can steal from me.
Despite this, I mostly alwaysmake eye contact because I feel
a sense of safety in masking.
But noticeably different feels unsafe.
So either way I'm feelingunsafe in an interaction.
It's a trap.
Tash shared.
Lack of eye contact does not bother me.
(15:35):
It bothers other people.
My mom used to feel really offendedwhen I didn't give her eye contact.
Another person shared.
After a number of commentssaying I have an intense gaze.
It has made me paranoid aboutwhere to look and how much to make.
eye contacted itselfthough is not my issue.
It's what goes along with it.
When you aren't doing itin a neuro-typical way.
On the topic of masking.
(15:56):
Ash age 38 from Australia shared.
Being taught as a child that it'snecessary or polite means that I
will often try to make eye contactwith people, despite it feeling
deeply uncomfortable for me.
When I have to focus on making theappropriate level of eye contact,
not too intense, not too little,or they'll think you're shifty.
I find it much harder to use mywords and communicate effectively.
(16:17):
Jessica O 30 from lakeMacquarie, Australia.
She's at.
aussie autism family on Instagram.
She shares.
I always thought I was okay witheye contact until I realized I've
been masking all these years andwould put strategies in place to use
eye contact in a neuro-typical way.
I'm always thinking about how much eyecontact I give . When someone is talking
to me, I will look into their eyes.
Then after a while, I will realize thatI'm actually staring at them for too long.
(16:40):
I do this to better understandwhat they're saying.
I prefer sitting side by sideto people while I was talking.
This allows me to look at what's goingon in front of me while talking . And not
have to stare right into someone's eyes.
SP aged 53 from the UK shared.
My autism assessment said that Imade normal in inverted commas.
Eye contact.
But I think that I've spentyears learning how to do it.
(17:01):
I wasn't diagnosed until I was 52.
When I start to think about it,I get confused and uncomfortable
and have to break eye contact.
I was told when I was younger, that Istayed at people, but not in the eyes.
JP age 26 from Sydney.
Australia said eye contact is interesting.
I recently learned that the way Ishow eye contact is a form of masking.
(17:22):
I feel really comfortable providingeye contact when I start my sentences.
And then as I'm finishing the sentence,if I have a lot to say, I'll often
look to the side or down at thematerials that I'm referring to.
As a speech pathologist, itwas taught that eye contact is
important for communication.
But I realized that it was stressful forme and my client to try and force it.
once I leaned into not forcingit, I realized that social
(17:42):
interactions are much smoother.
Nathaniel aged 18, turning 19 fromMalanie in Queensland Australia says.
I usually try to make eye contact,especially in formal circumstances because
it was what I was taught in therapyis attained before I was diagnosed.
If I feel like I'm masking,well, eye contact isn't as bad,
but masking can be really hard.
(18:02):
And interpersonal conversation.
I sometimes use eye contactand sometimes don't.
But I always feel really guiltywhen I don't use it because I
feel rude for ignoring someoneand not meeting their eyes.
It's a lot better when I'mwith other autistic people, but
I still feel a little guilt.
I do make more eye contact with peoplewho I'm romantically interested in,
because I think being vulnerableis part of romantic affection.
And thus making eye contact is meremoving the barrier of all the
(18:25):
anxiety and just letting myself be.
Plus sometimes people'seyes are really pretty.
I actually love all of that.
There's so many great insights, but thisidea is something I relate to as well.
Sometimes the sensory experienceof looking into someone's
eyes do actually look at the.
eye itself.
It's really fascinating.
And I can get very absorbed inlooking at the colors and the
(18:46):
details in somebody's eyeball withoutactually following the conversation.
S M S from Queensland, Australia,aged 41 shared, forcing myself to meet
the other person's eyes along withother appropriate in inverted commas.
Signs of attention is distractingfor me and often means I
miss what they're saying.
I can't keep my train of thought whenI'm focused on maintaining eye contact.
(19:10):
Sarah age 27 fromBrisbane, Australia shared.
If I'm having a general conversationwith someone where I feel I have to
mask to neuro-typical numbs, I will trymy best to give as much eye contact as
possible without staring into their soul.
Half of my mind is focused onwhether I'm blinking too much, or
if I should look away for a momentto make sure I'm not making them
uncomfortable with too much eye contact.
(19:30):
It also impacts my ability to retrievewords, provide well-structured sentences
and retrieve memories accurately.
I also find it extremely hard todescribe something I'm talking about.
If I can't look up in a way toa blank space, for example, a
roof will, or the sky to try tovisualize what I'm thinking about.
As a child, I used to get a lot of promptsto focus on people when they were talking.
(19:50):
With my family lovingly referringto my inattentive moments
as oh, butterfly moments.
And correctly.
So sometimes me looking away was anunintentional distraction of thoughts
and disengagement with the conversation.
However, sometimes looking awaywould help me visualize or process
what others were telling me.
So it was difficult as a child tonot get upset when I was listening.
The teachers or familymembers would assume that.
(20:10):
I wasn't, because I had looked away.
On the topic of coping andcompensation strategies.
Now you've already heard quite a few.
Peppered throughout the other comments.
And here I'll share a few more thatspecifically talk about these strategies.
Kate M from Sydney, Australia shared.
The way I experienced it is that.
It is mainly distractingfrom the conversation.
And I have a lot ofthoughts about eye contact.
(20:31):
The analogy I use at work is like, ifsomeone had a little flashlight next
to their eyes and expected you to makeeye contact with them, it blink a lot.
I want to look away and think,wow, that light is so bright.
And wow.
Can it just not.
And also get a small headache and not paymuch attention to the actual conversation.
That's exactly what it's like.
I tried using my phone torch toshow someone this exact thing
once, but they didn't like it.
(20:52):
Maybe that's because it was uncomfortable.
Maybe that was the point.
I'm not sure yet if it'sa good teaching tool.
Kate.
I think that is fascinating.
What an interesting idea toactually turn your experience into.
Something quite tangible that youmight be able to show somebody that
somebody else might end up perceivingas a version of your experience.
Cool experiment.
Thank you for sharing that.
(21:13):
Anyway, Kate goes on.
Now that I know all this I've stoppedgoing to restaurants or cafes where you
sit right across from the other person.
I really disliked that.
So usually I'll go for a walk withfriends or husband, et cetera.
If we want to catch up, talk with athird object that we both look at.
I sit in a corner booth at a cafe andalways try to be 90 degrees, et cetera.
It doesn't come up that much as adistressing thing, but I've tailored my
(21:34):
life around having comfy interactions.
Kim age 31 from Australia.
She's at creativity andbeyond OT on Instagram.
Kim has shared.
I regularly avoid eye contactin regular situations.
I a supermarket caches andwe'll make the perceived wrong
eye contact with your friends.
For example, they had bracesand I'd always be looking
(21:54):
at them and not their face.
I regularly look away to speakand stare in multiple directions
as it helps keep my focus.
S P H 30 plus in Melbourne,Australia shares.
As a healthcare worker, I'm awarethat some patients and family members
prefer, eye contact to show thatI care and I'm paying attention.
I use tricks to look at the sides oftheir eyes or the middle of their eyes.
(22:15):
People with eye makeup is easy as I lookat their eyebrows, lids and lashes, I
think because I'm in this situation, Iam the professional in the power dynamic.
It's a lot easier to do and I canmake eye contact as part of my routine
spiel to build rapport and connection.
Sometimes though, if I need toconcentrate on the situation eye
contact is too hard to manage.
Eye contact is exhaustingand uses a lot of focus.
It feels uncomfortable.
(22:36):
Like I'm staring at something.
I shouldn't see.
It's the same feeling slashreaction that you get when you
first glance at a disabled personor someone different to your race.
And in brackets as a disabled brownperson, I know the feeling well.
And.
I know to look away quickly.
Hannah age 33 from Sydney, Australia.
She is at HannastaciaX on Instagram.
(22:57):
I tend to enjoy one on onewalks in nature with people.
So I'm walking parallel with them,which means no, or very little eye
contact while also regulating ona walk and connecting with nature.
I'll often have a little voicein my head stating have I been
holding eye contact too long?
Wait, I need to make eye contact.
I definitely relate to that over thinking.
How much is the correctamount of eye contact?
(23:18):
How is it supposed to look.
And anonymous coming to from the USAshared growing up, I was supposed to
make eye contact you to the social norm.
As an adult.
I've chosen not to.
Well, it might be awkward for theother person at first, getting
accustomed to the lack of eye contact.
It's freeing for me.
It helps strengthen therelationship because I can be
authentic and open up more.
(23:38):
Plus I can focus on what they'resaying better, and it reduces the
likelihood of being overstimulated.
On the impact of relationships.
Winston aged 16 from Sydney, Australia.
At Winston junior DeSilva,D E Z I L V a on Instagram.
Winston shares.
I, as a matter of fact, actually lovemaking eye contact with people I really
(24:00):
trust or want to be intimate with.
It's a similar rule to touch.
I'm not really a touchy person except withclose friends and people I trust, I don't
force it, but I don't mind or want it.
Sam aged 32 from Virginia in the USA.
In my work with autistic kids, I foundthat some will have moments of holding
very intense eye contact with mewhile being pretty close to my face.
(24:20):
Often these seem to be my kidswith limited spoken communication.
And in those moments, there isan incredible sense of trust.
And like a whole conversation has had.
ES aged 14 from the USA shares.
For me, eye contact is an intimate action.
I do like to make eye contact with a fewpeople in my life that I'm really close
to, but it's uncomfortable to make an eyecontact with strangers, acquaintances.
(24:41):
Most people I interactwith on a daily basis.
Mel aged 34 from Melbourne Australia.
She's at Neurodivergent dotreflections on Instagram.
Mel shares.
The only person I'm more comfortablewith more extended eye contact with
is my husband probably due to thosefeelings around intensity and intimacy.
Even then it can feel like a lot.
(25:01):
I've got to have the energy for it.
Which feels kind of funny, to behonest, needing entity, to do something
that so many people take for granted.
And our final theme is experiencesof therapy and training.
Ana aged 34 from Australia sharedthis incredible reflection.
A story from childhood.
At one time when I was a child, ateacher, one to, to explain to me how to
(25:23):
do a task and came over to talk to me.
She got offended.
I was ignoring her.
Because I was avoiding eye contact.
I'm forced me to hold eye contactwith her while she was speaking.
I felt humiliated,overwhelmed, and terrified.
And to this day, currentlyI'm in my thirties.
I remember how bad itwas and how awful I felt.
and wonder what did she possiblyget from forcing an eight year
old girl to look her in the eye?
(25:44):
What sort of adult has such afragile sense of self-respect that
it can be threatened by an eightyear old's lack of eye contact.
I still feel confused and hurtwhen I think about it, because
for me it was so intenselyconfronting and also so unnecessary.
It feels so unfair that I get atraumatic memory for the rest of
my life because she couldn't dealwith 10 seconds without eye contact.
That interaction is why Ilearnt to mask, so I would never
(26:05):
have to deal with that again.
K shares.
I've not had any therapy about this,but did attend an annoying social skills
class at uni that was really designed tobuild more understanding of Australian
social norms for international students.
They made us make eye contact, which wasannoying because I know how to do that.
Not because it's uncomfortable.
I do notice that I really hateeye contact and a bit my gaze when
(26:26):
I'm distressed or dysregulated.
Outside of moments of distress.
I seek eye contact to make sure Ican read my conversational partners
and feel connected with them.
It's a really important observation,that eye contact norms are very,
very different across cultures.
And across sub cultures.
So while Kay was asked to participate ina social skills class to fit in more with
(26:47):
Australian social norms, I'm not sure whowrote the book on Australian social norms.
It does make me wonder whether weAustralians are on the higher end
of expectations for eye contact.
There were certainly cultures where eyecontact is viewed in different ways,
including being an important markerof power and respect and, there's
so many different interpretations,so it's not a universal given.
(27:09):
Anyway, I digress.
Let's go into our last comment.
So anonymous 63 from Australiashared I was in my thirties in a
class on small business management.
One of the tasks was to sit oppositea person and speak to them on a
subject whilst looking them in the eye.
I couldn't do it.
It was extremely uncomfortableand I started to cry.
I don't think I realized to whatextent I had avoided looking at people.
(27:31):
There is so many moreimportant, essential insights.
So I really, really hope thatyou will go to check out the full
array of comments that people left.
And again, if there's something.
That you as an autistic personor an autistic person in your
life would like to contribute.
On this topic, please head overto playlearnchat.com/eye-contact.
(27:53):
And you can join inthe conversation there.
I hope that you will share thispodcast episode and that blog post
as resources to supportother people in your life.
To understand just some of the differingperspectives and experiences that
autistic folks have around eye contact.
Thank you so much for sharingthis space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
(28:15):
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day!
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