September 24, 2024 • 63 mins
What a fabulously important (and fun!) chat with Christina Schmidt as she shared perspectives as a Black AuDHDer, Speech Therapist and deep thinker.
Join us for some fabulous metaphors, and stay for the essential intersectional and cultural competency discussions.
Connect with Christina Schmidt:
2024 Autism in Black Women and Girl's Summit - https://funnel.autisminblack.org/black-autistic-girls-and-womens-summit?aff=Christina-Schmidt
Christina's free tool: Improving Cultural Competency: A Practical Resource for SLPs and Teachers - https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Improving-Cultural-Competency-A-Practical-Resource-for-SLPs-and-Teachers-12056756?st=2b5e1be4ea72a0105eb2bee56eef321c
Other resources and Black advocates/content creators/educators that we discussed"
Article: Is neurodiversity a Global Northern White paradigm? (Nair, V. K., Farah, W., & Boveda, M. (2024). https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/13623613241280835
Other Black AuDHDers:
Decolonising resources:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:26):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:47):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:07):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
. Hello, Christina.
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity podcast.
Hi, thanks for having me, Adina.
I am so excited to be on this episodewith you and share a bit of my story about
(01:27):
understanding my Neurodivergence and,uh, in return, really coming into my own.
So yeah, I'm ready to get into it.
It's, uh, we're going to have so much,
so much important discussion.
I can't wait to hear and learnfrom you and chat with you.
So Christina Schmidt is an ADHD,an autistic ADHD, a multiply
(01:51):
dialectal multicultural black woman.
She lives, works, plays, and createson the unceded lands of Wurundjeri
country in Nam, Melbourne, Victoria.
Victoria, Australia, and I am on thelands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal
people in Sydney, Australia.
Born in the US, Kristina has spentthe majority of her adult life
overseas in Austria and now Australia.
I feel like you're workingyour way through the alphabet.
(02:14):
Yeah, a little bit.
She works with paediatricand adult clients.
She specialises in neuroaffirming practiceand my goodness, what an amazing take
and, uh, and depth of understandingshe has, which she's going to share
with us about this area of practice,Um, and yeah, she works a lot with AAC,
Augmented and Alternative Communication,Gestalt Language Processing, a bit
(02:36):
of orofacial, I always say this onewrong, orofacial myofunctional therapy.
I got it.
Did I get it?
I got it.
Yes, the real tongue twister, uh, anddoes some feeding support as well.
Social justice advocacy is deeplyintertwined with her work due to
her strong justice sensitivity.
Um, and I mean, I might say not onlydue to that, maybe I think due to, you
(02:59):
know, just being an amazing human withwho thinks and cares deeply as well.
I wonder.
Thank
you.
Yeah, yeah.
A hundred percent.
And Christina's passionate abouthelping people discover and embrace
their unique strengths, sharingthem with the world in the ways
and at times that they feel ready.
What a, what a breath of fresh air.
Yeah, thank you.
(03:20):
It feels that way whenI'm supporting people.
Yeah,
I think that's
right.
That little last bit that's like,at that point where you feel ready,
you know, we're not thrustingourselves and our support of people
where we're, when they are readyfor it, we can support and be there.
I think it's so important.
Yeah, so Christina runs Free To BeMe Speech Therapy, which is such a
(03:42):
beautifully named practice as well.
Um, I get very opinionatedabout people's business names.
I know everyone thinks very hard aboutthem and some I love and some not so much.
And the moment I heard yours,I thought, You have nailed it.
And it just came to me, really.
It felt right.
It's like how I transitioned fromworking solely with pediatric clients
(04:04):
to also now working with adults.
And I used to reallystray away from adults.
Because I hadn't really found my,my niche, but now that I work with
other late diagnosed autistic and ADHDer clients, I just feel like, in a
way, it's actually like my calling.
I can go into the session and it justfeels, and at the end of the session, I
(04:29):
just feel I think it's really importantto reflect back and go, wow, that, that
happened and it just happens so naturally.
So with Free2Be Me, speech therapy,I just thought, I, first of all,
I want to feel free to be me.
And I really want the same for everyone.
The people that I provide the servicesto, uh, it's really free to be me and free
(04:53):
to be seen, free to be heard, free to beunderstood exactly as you are, come as you
are, so, yeah, I'm so happy that it justcame to me and I felt like, That's it,
free to be me speech therapy, there we go.
I love that you see it from bothaspects, as it's almost the cue to
(05:13):
you to remind yourself to be yourself,and then as you're modelling that for
your clients, then that opens up, I'msure, the trust for them to be freer
to be themselves, which doesn't rhyme.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I wish it did.
Christina, can you share a bit withus about your journey to understanding
your neurodivergence, any keymoments, realisations, anything
that you feel happy to share here?
(05:34):
I would love to.
As I think about my exploringmy neurodiversity, I think about
who I am at the centre of things.
I am an internaliser and I'm constantlyreflecting and with that said, I think
(05:56):
about being autistic and being an ADHDer.
And how I'm so aware of so much that'saround me, just constantly getting that
input and managing that and sometimeshaving difficulty with managing that.
Um, and I always, I'm always taking awaya vast amount of things every millisecond,
(06:21):
and it can be really difficult to filterthe things out that I'm, more sensitive
to, which depletes my, my spoon supplyand on that topic, as a Black, ADHD er, I
actually have a theory that Black peopledon't even get the spoons to begin with.
(06:41):
I, I think that we're actually given alot of forks, you know, sometimes we might
be able to Borrow some spoons, but I justfeel like from the start they were already
taken from us, um, and that's, that'sopening up a whole other can of worms, and
of course I'd love to talk about it, I'mvery passionate about it, but I'm going
to park that there for the time being.
(07:03):
And, um, We will come back to
this, I think that fork,Deeply interesting.
What a metaphor.
Keep going.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and yeah, so that's justa point of reflection really,
um, for, for the listeners, forthe, the readers of the podcast.
So back to me reflecting on, on anythingand everything at any given moment.
(07:26):
Um, I think about exploringmy own neurodiversity and I
think about the question, why?
Not, not why am I neurodivergent?
Um, you know, not, not a real,a real surface level query.
Um, but why have I made thedecision to explore at the age
that I am being in my mid thirties?
(07:49):
Um, and I, I don't mean that I've,you know, I've always felt that
I was different, and, well, no, Ido, I do, I've, you know, probably
from the time I was little, I'vefelt like I am, I'm different.
I've always been searching forthe reasons why, I always want
to know why, um, and so, I, Yeah.
(08:12):
So I, I mean, what is it important tome to find, to find out who I am, right?
My y y Um, so with that said,I've been starting, well,
I, I'm on my journey, right?
So I started, I'm, I'm on my journeyand to really further understand,
I needed to get to, I need toreach and, and find my inner child.
(08:36):
Again, I feel like I've left herbehind, I've forgotten about her,
I stopped thinking about her andreally start my healing process for
my inner child, for little Christina.
And some things come to me when I'mactually not actively thinking about them.
So, And, and a part of my, my healingjourney, a part of healing my, my inner
(09:02):
child is to, to do things that I, I'mnot always conscious to at the time.
Um, so I was doing a bit of gardening andfor me, this was a big thing because for
quite a while I had initiation paralysis.
(09:23):
And thankfully, through understandingthat I'm an ADHD er and that I've
been able to take medication, um, it'sreally opened up my world to getting
past that initiation paralysis a lotof the time now, which is fantastic.
You know what?
I'm going to, I'm just going to interruptlike a classic ADHD er and just show you,
(09:44):
um, my Lego, like the flower Lego, whichI totally, I guess I initiated one of the
stems, um, the first week I was on ADHD
meds,
um, That was a while ago.
That was a few months ago.
But you're inspiring me to keep,keep my Lego gardening going.
Keep going.
I'm, I'm totally.
(10:05):
Okay.
It's just, yeah, look, I could, Ihave other Lego kits and it usually
takes me like months to finally getto them, but I, I totally get that.
Um, yes.
So, so as I was gardening,I was weeding, right?
I was pulling out thesegorgeous little plants.
Um, you know, but we callthem weeds, they're weeds, um.
(10:30):
And yeah, I thought I, I didn'twant them to keep growing on my
fence because it's not great.
Right.
And I noticed just how strong theywere and how long they were and,
and, and how deep some of the,the wheat, the roots of them were.
And I was thinking, wow, I've beenworking on finding my inner child
(10:53):
again, doing my inner child work and.
I was reflecting on really how deepwe need to go when we're, we're
doing this inner child work andwe're needing to find our roots.
And it's, it's really about getting tothe root of ourselves and I just found
it really intriguing because There's somuch that I want to rekindle and I want
(11:16):
to reconnect with myself, but it's alsoscary because there's a lot to unravel.
Um, so there's a huge part of the askingwhy, like asking those reasons and
exploring neurodiversity, and it's goingback as well to reconnect with my inner
child, because I am late diagnosed.
(11:38):
I've been.
Masking for a very long time since I was,I was really young and I actually need to
do a lot of, a lot of work so I can findout what little Christina needed and what
little Christina wanted and then integratethat with the person I've grown to be now.
And, you know, with those weeds, right?
(12:01):
The weeds.
You know, they, they might seemlike they're, they're noxious
or they're, they're unsightlyand we want to pull them out.
We're so quick to pull them out.
But we've, they, they pop back up.
Like they are so resilient.
And we've like, I think of the dandelionand how much we can do with the dandelion.
Like you can make tea out of it.
(12:22):
You can make food from the leaves.
You can make wishes!
Like, there's a whole cycle, and it evenaligns with, like, the moon and the sun
and the stars, and I'm so into that,and I thought, these weeds, and some
of them are so strong, they're hard forme to pull out, and I thought, being
neurodivergent, like, we, those of usthat are neurodivergent, like, we are
(12:43):
the weeds, you know, in the world, inour society, and sometimes people I want
to pull this out, but then it's likethat reminder that, hey, I'm actually
really awesome for the ecosystem.
I have a lot to offer.
I'm strong.
I'm resilient.
I might look different or, or, you know,I am different to the flowers around
(13:05):
me, but I still have a lot to offer.
A purpose.
I still have a reason why I'm here.
I, I'm absolutely loving this metaphor.
I'm seeing a million visuals of it.
Um, like maybe a children's book of yours.
Like this is, yeah.
Oh my gosh.
And, and you can go further with it.
You know, weeds might seem prickly.
Yeah.
Not seem so beautiful.
(13:27):
They're not all like dandelions.
Um, and we can go with that.
But, um, Yeah.
We all have something to offer.
Oh, I love this.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
We could stick on this question forever.
It could go deep.
Yeah.
But
we might come back to it, you know,the weeds might come up as a theme
and I could see, um, you know, forthose listening, I, uh, like to send
questions ahead of time to my, uh, myguests, because that's what I like, a
(13:51):
bit of preparation or an opportunityto, and I can see that Christina had
written in there, we are the weeds.
And I was so curious and nowI'm so excited about this idea.
Yeah.
Now,
now, now, you know, nowyou, you, you get it.
Hopefully.
I always feel like I want to recap theseconversations in, you know, a year or so.
Um, you know, even maybe we will, maybewe'll come back together and, and find
(14:15):
out where are you at with, with yourselfconcept and that exploration and, you
know, maybe very personal as well, but
yeah.
How I started the book, youknow, I started writing the book.
So many ideas.
Totally.
Um, it's fascinating.
And I think the message there is,you know, no matter when you were
diagnosed, no matter, like foreverybody, no matter where you are
(14:37):
in the journey, whether it's a formaldiagnosis or not, it's, it's a journey.
It is going to be ongoing processing,possibly in loops and in cycles.
And, um, you've kind of reminded me that.
Two years ago, when I went throughmy diagnosis, it was just over, it
was two years and one month ago.
Um, I was very reflective goingback to all these past experiences.
(14:59):
It was like, I was dissectingall these past experiences very
methodically with a new lens.
Yeah.
You've reminded me that I've actuallyput that aside through the busyness of
life and kind of left that for a bit.
And I actually want to revisit it.
So I thank you for that.
Yeah, that's all right.
Uh, for me, I'm, it was so.
(15:20):
Amazing to be, you know, I wasn'twearing gloves when I was gardening.
I was getting dirt under my nails, which,I mean, that's a bit of a sensory thing.
I'm like, oh, I was like,I just, you know what?
I just, yeah, I just, I just, Ineed to feel the earth right now.
I remember when I was a child and I'ddig through the soil and I'd find worms
and slugs and, you know, I, I justwas like, this is little Christina.
(15:46):
This is, This is what I need right now.
Okay, you've gone to worms and digging.
I have to tell you about the worm game.
Oh, please do.
This is one
of my, my personal narratives abouthow darn weird I was as a child.
Embrace the weirdness, love the weirdness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, at some point in my childhood,uh, maybe around age nine or
(16:07):
so, I invented the worm game.
I hate worms.
I don't mind spiders.
Don't mind cockroaches that much.
Don't love them.
But like, hard kind of crittersare okay, but squiggly,
squishy ones, absolutely not.
No thank you.
Um, and so the worm game goes like this.
You dig in the soil until you find aworm, and then you've lost the game.
(16:27):
Oh, that's the game.
Oh, that's like the other game whereif you think about it, you lose.
And so I've just lost that game.
So thanks for that.
Yeah.
And, uh, but I did it repetitively andI'd have all these multiple rounds of
like digging till I found a worm, freakmyself out, feel like I've, I've failed.
I've lost it and I better try again.
And the goal is to lose it.
There's a lot to read into that one.
(16:48):
Yeah, there is.
Oh my goodness.
But anyway, let's gocome back to your story.
Um, and obviously, you know, you live atthe intersection of multiple identities.
Yeah.
I'd love to hear your personalexperience about how you experience
being both black and an autistic ADHD.
How has that shaped who you are?
(17:09):
How has it impacted your life, your work?
Anything you'd love to share around that.
Yeah, the way that I'm gonna shareand frame this is, to me, like, the
quintessential, being black, beingautistic, being an ADHD er, I'm gonna,
I'm going to share it with you from,like, my, sort of, sensory experience,
(17:33):
and You know, I think about, okay, like,what, what is it to be a Black ADHD
er from, from my perspective, right?
It's, it's the, for me, like,being a young child and My dad, who
would often do my hair, like my momwould too, but I had a lot of hair.
(17:53):
So, you know, I think about like thesmells from the hair grease that was used
to, you know, help to, to hydrate my hairand, and to keep it, keep it healthy.
And I think about The feeling ofmoisturiser and Vaseline on my skin,
(18:14):
and I think of like the most wonderfulsmells of soul food, like it, it, it
reaches the depths of your soul, right?
Um, from early in the morning, right?
My dad would put on collard greens andsmoked ham hocks on the stove and it
would just fill the home with like, youknow, it's almost like you could just jump
(18:38):
back in time to your an to my ancestorsthat would do the same sort of thing.
And, um, I also can hear my mom goingmm, mm, mm as she's shaking her head
because either it's something that'samiss or there's something that's,
that's hilarious depending on theway that she's used it, um, that
(18:59):
she's, that she's expressed herself.
Uh, you know, I think, I alsothink of my, my mom saying serde.
for Saturday because she was raised by hergrandparents who were southern in the US.
So that was her, her dialect.
And it was different formine because I grew up in the
Pacific Northwest of the US.
Um, but you know, this ishow deeply I, I relate.
(19:25):
And I, and I, and you know, my experienceof the world is often through, you
know, like my, my senses and Um, youknow, what I, and what I see, what
I smell, what I feel, even beyondthat, um, you know, interoception or
sometimes lack of, of, of interoception,like reading my body signals.
(19:47):
But, you know, a lot of things I'm,I'm very like hyper aware to, um, you
know, I also, I also think about the,the sound of my dad code switching.
You know him speaking differently and itsounded differently when we were in some
public spaces versus when we're at home.
And I remember he, um, and my dad hasan engineer degree and you know, he
(20:13):
even, he's, Just so great with mathand science, and he's helped me with,
you know, understanding that when I wasin school, and I think about the time
when we went to my math teacher in highschool, and my dad, he needed to show
her how to teach the class, becausewhen I came home confused, his engineer
(20:33):
degree said otherwise, Yeah, this, I canunderstand why this is not being taught
to you in a way, or even your class, ina way that you're going to understand.
So, you know, how has it beenfor me, being Black, being an
ADHD er, I've shaped who I am.
Like, so that's, that's, that's how.
(20:54):
It's really that cultural aspect.
Um, and, you know, when it comes tomy work life, you know, a lot of what
I do, And in the name free to be mespeech therapy, like I'm bringing
myself into what I'm doing, right?
Yes, I have my boundaries.
Right?
(21:14):
With work.
But also, a lot of it is me.
I am showing up as me.
That is why I decided when I startedFree to Be Me Speech Therapy, which was
only about three months ago, Um, youknow, I went, I'm going to just make it
known that I now understand I'm autistic.
I now understand I'm an ADHD er.
I'm building all of this intoFree to Be Me Speech Therapy.
(21:37):
So there's no going, there'sno guessing, there's no, you
know, walking around it anymore.
This is me here.
Here I am.
I love those descriptions of your,your life, your experiences through the
sensory lens and, and other experiential,er, experiential aspects as well.
And I guess I'm wondering,it's a thought experiment.
I don't know how helpful it isor how accessible it is for you.
(22:00):
So you're welcome to skip it.
Cause I didn't even, I'mjust thinking of it now.
Um, can you.
Imagine any of your experiences and maybeeven thinking about masking specifically
as a child, where you may have had tomask in a different way, being black
compared to if you had been white and,you know, with your same neurotype,
(22:21):
but without the knowledge, obviously.
Yeah.
I think about certain ways that Iwould communicate things Because of
my, my tone and that, that can be a,that can be a common autistic, uh,
experience is, you know, saying thingsthe way that they, they are, right?
(22:45):
And sometimes it comes out,just, just comes out, right?
And, uh, it doesn't necessarilyreflect the, the feeling behind it.
But I know for me, because Um, and, youknow, being Black, if I said something
in a certain way, then I would beportrayed, you know, like in a really, in
(23:06):
a really negative, um, stereotype, right?
That I was an angry Blackwoman or Black, you know, girl.
Um, and, you know, it can, um, So, um,you know, things that would lead to me
not getting access to things that I needor getting in trouble, you know, like
(23:29):
being sent to the principal or, you know,having to speak to the teacher after
class or after school, um, you know,those are the things I would be really
aware of and, you know, , it wasn't,and, and it was because I was black.
Like I knew going in into that, if I, ifI expressed myself and I said certain,
something a certain way, and it maybeit's 'cause I was uncomfortable with, with
(23:49):
something that I was experiencing in themoment, I knew that I had to perhaps yeah.
Say it with a, a certain tone eventhough it's like, oh, I'd rather not,
um, otherwise, I, I, I just knew how Iwould be portrayed as, as being black.
So, you know, I know that I.
It is probably one of the very fewPR privileges that I have being able
(24:12):
to mask because not every autisticperson is, is able to do that.
Right.
But for me, uh, a lot of timesit's, it is for safety reasons.
Like It is, it is.
Yeah.
It, it can be so that I,I keep my, my life right.
Like I, I, yeah.
Um, so it's a needed thing, but yeah.
(24:35):
It's such a mixed blessingthat you have that ability.
And also, gosh, wouldn't it begreat if none of us had to use it.
And I would imagine that from whatyou've described and what I imagine,
um, as a white person, you know, it'sa nice thing to be able to change your
tone and maybe shift it up so that.
You know, other people may perceive youas a little bit gentler or something, but
(24:57):
it may be non optional for black people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause the repercussions are just,they're just vastly different, right?
It's not just like, Oh, youknow, you're being rude.
It's yeah.
It's, it's beyond that.
It's the, yeah.
Um, just, yeah, not then it's justlike my access to things might be cut
(25:18):
off and I, and I very well need it.
Like I think of.
medically, like medical appointments.
Right.
Um, and if, and I, and it's, I'veunfortunately had it happen to me before.
Um, and I didn't know at thetime that I was autistic.
Um, so yeah, it just, it compoundsthe situation, but, you know, I didn't
(25:42):
get access to what I needed becauseI was seen as an angry black woman.
And it happens far too often in ourworld and yeah, and depending on what it
is, like that, it can be life or death.
It can be life or death.
And that racialised prejudiceis, I imagine in many cases it's
(26:04):
very overt and then in many othercases I imagine it's covert.
Yeah.
It's just present and.
I mean, I'm going to simplify it in amoment and just say it bloody sucks.
It's not okay.
It's like, I, uh, I'd like to shake theworld up and, uh, stop that happening
because that is, yeah, I want to swear.
(26:25):
I try not to swear on this podcast,but yeah, I don't, yeah, I, I see the
world in sometimes very simple forms.
It doesn't make sense whenthe world doesn't match that.
And the way that I mean by simpleforms is, we are all humans.
This is my simplistic,idealistic view of humanity.
We're all humans, we're all valid,we're all worth equal humanness.
(26:49):
One human.
Awesome.
Um, isn't that enough?
Can't we just treat humans as humans?
No, apparently it's not.
The world is not so simple.
Yeah.
And, and I wonder then yourexperiences in your adult life
and your professional world.
So how has your experience been?
Being as a black ODHDer inspeech pathology, um, in
(27:09):
these professional fields.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in other spaces in professional life.
Yeah.
Speech pathology is, uh, it'swhite, a white majority profession.
It's, it's white dominated.
So, already, andespecially in Australia, I.
(27:32):
I don't know of many other Black speechpathologists, um, so it can feel very
barren and, and, and desolate andunmarked territory and like there goes
the tumbleweed just tumbling across.
Um, but I, I don't let that stop me.
(27:55):
I don't let that, I don't, I don't,I'm not going to see it as a barrier.
Instead, I, I'm carving my own path bydoing what I know, uh, that I do best.
And, um, you know, I, the ADHDer inme, like I'm taking those side quests.
(28:17):
You know, when I'm going with myinterests, because I have so many,
um, I'm picking up the tools along theway and, um, yeah, and, and, and the
part, I'm building up my community.
So I'm finding other Black audieHDers, uh, that are exploring too,
you know, I'm saying, hey, comewith me, you know, we've got this.
(28:40):
So, yeah, I think also likewhen it comes to navigating.
The spaces and I, I, I enter themsometimes and I, you know, some
of my clients that I speak to.
That I, that I support and other peoplethat I speak with, you know, when you're
in the neurodiversity affirming space,it can just be so amazing and so lovely.
(29:05):
And sometimes you go outside of that spaceand it just forever, like, Lion King.
And Simba and Mufasa and Simba,you know, I'm Simba and I'm asking
Mufasa, like, what's that over there?
You know, I'm being told, like,don't, don't go over there.
Like, it's, that is not neurodiversityaffirming, just, you know, Yeah, beware.
(29:26):
So yeah, yeah, sometimes I enterthose spaces and I go, Oh, cool.
No, thank you.
So it's really proceeding with caution.
Um, and especially for me, like, PDAis strong, the injustice sensitivity is
strong, so they do drive me to like testthe waters a little bit and like read,
(29:51):
you know, take the measurements of thetoxicity, right, so I'll then place a flag
in those spaces that are contaminated and,you know, I let other black people know.
Black ADHDers know that it's unsafe,um, the reason I do that is because
in, uh, Black culture that I'm familiarwith, at least, um, being African
(30:11):
American, you know, a lot of thetimes we have to protect ourselves
by telling each other about servicesor, you know, things in general.
Going to stores or anything that that'sunsafe because it won't be shared, you
know, generally or vastly with everyone.
(30:33):
So a lot of the information that weshare, it's usually, um, you know, very,
very oral, um, like, like narratives,like, like we share, like oral story.
Um, right.
And, you know, that, that's justsomething for me that I, culturally, I
know, uh, something that has to be done.
(30:54):
So I'm very used to, to doing that.
Um, and, you know, warning,it's just historical, like it's
historically done to warn others.
Um, because it's a necessity and it stillis, so yeah, sometimes I'll kind of go
and I'll, and I'll kind of see what's thisall about, like sometimes in like Facebook
groups and such, and then I get, you know,that real reality check, um, it's not as
(31:19):
though I didn't, I didn't really know, butit can be Very confronting and harmful,
um, especially when I'm not listened toand I'll just say things and yeah, um,
well, cognitive dissonance that occurs.
I wonder if you have a bit of apersonal guidepost for yourself
when, when you kind of engage inthese maybe mild to moderately unsafe
(31:44):
spaces and challenge and advocate.
And when you step back and say,this is not for me, I, I am out of
here.
Well, I, more recently havemade a boundary for myself.
I think I, I, this, like it'sjust to be safe, most Facebook
groups I don't engage in.
I don't kinda, I, I don't, I don'trespond to things because I'm like,
(32:08):
you know, I, I, I already know.
You know, pattern recognition.
I know how this is going to go.
And I just don't want toput myself in harm's way.
So with certain groups, the onlyinteraction I'll do is, you know,
if I feel like this is going todirectly come back and benefit me,
that's like the boundary that I'veplaced for myself at the moment.
(32:29):
Totally, totally fair.
And it's such a burden on anymarginalised person, let alone multiply
marginalised, um, person to, to,Put it all on those individuals to
say, you've got to do all the work.
Um, and I guess we didn't flagthis as a question, so I'm
just chucking it out here.
Um, well, we sort of, we sort of,no, haven't really gone there, but,
(32:52):
um, is there anything that whitefolks like me, um, can do better to
be advocates and be voices and takesome of the burden off of white folks?
Marginalised people, black people,when, when things come up in, we'll
say Facebook groups for argument'ssake, where a lot of trash comes up.
(33:12):
Yeah, I think the first step is reallybeing, you know, being, Being ready
to unlearn, to relearn, or, or toactually learn what's, what's needed.
It's acknowledging that thereare marginalised people that,
(33:37):
yeah, are, are constantly putin harm's way, and challenging.
Implicit bias, you know, things, ideas,opinions that, that you, you already hold
and, and may not really recognise that itis something that, that you, you actually
(33:58):
do believe in to a certain extent.
Um, and I have put together a resource.
Um, it's a competency checkand it has some links to, um,
like free, they're all free.
And, you know, there's a,there's a starting point to
check your implicit bias.
Like it's a, it's an anonymousonline sort of course.
(34:21):
Quiz, and there's several different areasthat you can check your implicit bias
about, maybe, um, you know, the weightof people, or the sexual orientation of
people, or people with darker skin tones.
So, I think it's going through thisprocess of, you know, I want to be on a
learning journey, you know, and I wantto do, I do, I want to do better, right?
(34:45):
I want to know better.
I want to do better.
So how am I going to do better?
You know, I'm gonna, I'm going to takethat time to start on learning things
and really, you know, get to a pointwhere I can be more confident that I
can call these things out and I canadvocate because it's, it's, It's
not the responsibility of the peoplethat are already put in harm's way to
(35:08):
continue, like, endlessly be fightingfor, you know, to be heard, to be, you
know, recognised and understood and havecredit, you know, going back to them.
Like, it's just not fair and it's thatadditional exhaustion but, you know,
if you can really have people thatare in, you know, majority support.
(35:31):
Cultures and such to, to advocate, um,right, and to see something and go, oh,
not only do I know that's not right, butI'm going to say something, you know,
because I very likely have a lot less tolose than this person that is multiply
marginalised because they're, yeah.
(35:52):
That's another key point.
Um, it's not just about taking theburden off multiply marginalised people
to do all that labour for themselves.
It's actually less personal, youknow, if it's not your community and
you're there to support, to, to throwyour support behind or to call out
racism or ableism or, you know, yeah,section of both of those and other.
(36:13):
Um, it's less of a, an emotional,probably a physical toll as well.
Um, yes, we all, we all have to, andI think it takes a lot of humility.
I think we'll talk about this morein a moment, like some, some of
those other key ways that somebody.
Who says that they are neurodiversityaffirming, you know, what that really
(36:36):
means on a big, on a global scale, and acouple of sidebars before we dive into it.
One sidebar is that resource youmentioned, I will link in the show
notes so that people can get that.
The other sidebar, which relates to, Ithink the question we'll chat about in a
moment, which is, um, I started readingan article that popped up in my world
yesterday and I haven't read it yet.
(36:57):
Finished it.
In fact, it was onlypublished three days ago.
Oh yeah.
Um, is neurodiversity a global,northern white paradigm?
I dunno if you're aware of it.
Mm.
You
helpful or
no?
Not yet.
Not three days.
Not, not yet.
But please, yeah, popit in the show notes.
Send it through.
I'd love to have a look at it.
I will.
It is looking like, uh, areally nice compliment to our
(37:19):
discussion and really interesting.
Um, so yeah, I'm likeabout halfway through, but.
I will absolutely link to it.
And I thought this, this soundslike up your alley for sure.
And it should be up thealley of everyone listening.
Yes.
Um, and, and this is it.
This, the first time I read this concept.
It surprised me and I thought, hang on,neurodiversity affirming and cultural
(37:41):
competency, how do they even fit together?
And then I have It
actually is a part of theneurodiversity paradigm.
Like if you look into it,it, it, it, it is listed.
So that's why, yeah,
yeah.
It's a fascinating question.
I think it goes kind of aninteresting direction in that article.
Um, you know, asking the question of, isthis neurodiversity affirming movement
(38:04):
basically a, um, a white concept?
Is it, is it completely erasing, uh,and missing the black stories and
the, uh, well, culturally diversestories from around the world.
I'll let the article do its thing andplease, um, everyone go and check it out.
Cause it looks really fascinating.
Um, I'm going to let you do your thing.
So I want to hear, Christina, um, yeah,your, your concerns about when you see
(38:28):
there are services out there that aresupporting neurodivergent people, they
claim to be neurodiversity affirming, andyou notice a lack of cultural competency.
What do you, what do you see that'smissing or where can people kind
of check in with themselves andimprove their cultural competency?
Yeah, so, I mean, being, being Black,being a speech pathologist, I've
(38:53):
experienced it firsthand, where, youknow, a place that I've, I've worked at
will say that they want to be able tosay that, you know, as a whole, um, they
are, you know, Neurodiversity affirming.
And I've, you know, thought,no, no, pump the brakes.
You're not there yet.
Um, you know, it, because for me, uh,as someone that's, that's working,
(39:16):
you know, as an employee or acontractor, I'm not even being honoured.
And I am very clear about The needs thatI, I have and they're not being met.
Um, at the time I didn't say it wasbecause I was autistic or an ADHD
or because, yeah, I also for safetyreasons, like sometimes, you, you
(39:38):
know, like you can have a thermometer.
Um, and I think that's a really goodexample of who are the people that I
tell, how much do I tell them, right?
I knew it wasn't safe forme to, so no I didn't.
Um, but it's, yeah, it's reallyobvious when, uh, you know, a
place wants to, but already, youknow, internally, they're not.
(39:59):
So, yeah.
It's, yeah, it's not, it's not okay towant to broadly do it, you know, it's
a part of that like bandwagoning or,you know, providing that lip service.
And, you know, the marketing to do so, butit's really all just for profit, right?
It's prioritised over people, um,that they're purporting to help.
(40:24):
So, that's, yeah, or, you know, likethe language that's used will be ASD.
Um, or, or person first language.
And, you know, for, for someone that,that is autistic, and if that's the
term that they use fully, you know,that's, that's how they want to
identify, that's valid, that is okay.
(40:46):
Um, but the majority of the autisticcommunity, um, you know, say that,
Identity First Language is muchpreferred and that's why I refer
to myself as Autistic, right?
Um, and also, uh, ASD and Autistichave the same amount of syllables.
So, we are not saving, we're not savingourselves time, you know, by saying ASD.
(41:10):
Um, so, if that helps, um, Actually, my,the person that did my, my autism, um,
the formal assessment said that to me andI, and I said, you know, absolutely true.
You know, actions to, to, to do areto really affirm diverse cultural y y
(41:31):
It's being anti racist.
It's being inclusive ofcultural differences.
So it's taking into community languagevariations, um, valuing the linguistic
diversity within disabled communities,within the BIPOC, that's Black Indigenous,
(41:52):
People of Colour, disabled communities,um, and the LGBTQIA plus community.
Another way is being.
We talk about in speech pathology a lot oftime being client centred and client led,
but inclusive in that is understandingthat there's the intersection of
(42:13):
race and neurodivergence and genderand other identities that shape each
person's needs and goals, so let's notforget that That all comes apart of
being client centred and another waythat I think about is a neurodiversity
affirming service, it's going toactively challenge, Not only ableism,
(42:37):
but also racism, also sexism, alsoclassism, and other systemic oppressions.
So, yeah, it's beyond just, okay,this person's seeking my services
because they're disabled, so I'mjust going to focus on the ableism.
All the other things that come alongwith them that they also identify as.
(42:59):
And so, yeah, it's just recognisingthat these systems all intersect and,
um, it very much is, is affecting thelives of, like, this is a lot, this is
how neurodivergent BIPOC and LGBTQIAplus individuals experience their life.
This is what they'recoming to our services.
(43:20):
Um, you know, with, so for us not toacknowledge or validate or, you know,
find out more about those, those areasof their identity, I feel it's just,
you know, we're, we're falling short.
We're coming up short.
Yeah.
And it strikes me as a much.
(43:41):
Like a true, a deeper way of being clientcentred, not just we are client centred
and we've written it on paper, justlike we are neurodiversity affirming.
We work with ASD children.
Um, these things that are very dissonant.
And, um, I guess thinking from a servicelevel, is there anything, you know, you,
you have your own service, you createdit, you grew it from the ground up.
(44:04):
Um, and, um, Is there anything thatmaybe you did in that process that
you could suggest for other servicesso that they can be more culturally
competent and have that as partof their, their support framework?
Yeah, from the very beginning, um, youknow, I think about like client intake
and gathering that background information.
(44:28):
And I have a question inmy, my template that I use.
That is, you know, it opens upby, by saying, are you, are you
okay if I ask you a bit about yourcultural background, your values?
I want to be able to understand you,you know, better and as best as,
(44:50):
and support you as best as I can.
And.
I know sometimes families will,will say, um, or like a client
will say, Oh, no, no, nothing.
Um, but so I'll, I'll, I'll addon to that by saying, you know,
maybe this is just values thatyou hold dearly within yourself.
It's your household.
(45:10):
Or within, you know, you and yourfriends in case you know maybe they're
not close with their family and thisis an adult that I'm speaking to.
Um, you know so, culture can be you know,as big or as small as we want to make it.
Um, right.
It's not always just, you know, our,our, our cultural background because,
for example, like our ethnicity, right?
(45:32):
Or, or regionally.
But it can even be, uh, you know,within, within your friend group that,
you know, your friend group means a lotto you, and these are the values that
you, you hold really, really dearly.
And that could be some niceinsight into, um, a client's life.
And, you know, I'm.
Still been able to acknowledge andaffirm their, their cultural values.
(45:58):
Um, so, yeah, I think it's, it'sa lot of time we, we hear like,
Meet them where they're at.
We need to meet ourclients where they're at.
And so it is including thecultural factors, right?
Um, so, thinking about, like,what, what protective mechanisms
might they have due to oppression?
(46:20):
Like, that can kind of be a littlebit of a prompt to kind of remind you,
like, You know, consider this personwho I'm supporting and, and, you know,
who they are, and they're coming to me,um, because maybe they may not always
know, which is okay, right, and theymay not always want to share either.
Maybe they do come from a culture whereThat's just not something that you do
(46:44):
with someone that you don't know so well.
Um, or perhaps, you know, it mightbe going to an elder in their
community to get that information.
So, yeah, it's, it's, Reallybuilding up, you know, firstly,
like, like your knowledge of beingable to get that knowledge from
(47:04):
a client that you're supporting.
Um, and, and how to do thatis, is starting with addressing
your own implicit biases, right?
So that's that journey of unlearningorder, in order to really learn, right?
So it's, the responsibility isfirst on us, then we can go forward
with supporting our clients.
I love that way of framing, um, you'rekind of coaching the individual to be able
(47:28):
to identify their cultural backgrounds andto feel safe to share that with you and
to check in with that, you know, you'rechecking, do you feel okay to share this?
And here's why it's important.
Um, and I imagine for some people,maybe even for everyone to some degree,
you know, we sort of are inside ourculture and some of us may not notice.
All the different cultures andsubcultures, uh, and groups that
(47:51):
we belong to because that's justour normal, that's what it is.
Yeah, especially for
a majority culture, right?
Yeah, so, um, and if someone, if someonesays, you know, either they don't know
or maybe they're not comfortable toshare, I would just leave it, you know,
through building rapport and, you know,observing, um, You know, as you get, as
(48:14):
you're working with them, you can, youcan gather that information that way.
Um, but at least by asking the question,you know, do you feel comfortable to
share and, and giving a reason why, um,it just opens it up rather than, you
know, what are your cultural values?
Yeah.
No, I like, I really lovethat way of framing it.
And it's part of thatrelationship building over time.
(48:36):
Is there anything else that you wouldsay, and I know we will actually talk
about, um, And if you want to findout more about specific resources
at the end, you've got a bunch andI will link all of those as well.
But is there anything else that you wantedto kind of share with any therapists or
professionals from majority cultures,um, around how to make better support
communities from people from communitiesand minority cultures in their practice?
(49:00):
Yeah, because I mentioned, youknow, that's just one question
that I've built in and fromthe start in my intake process.
So I get a new client.
And by the way, you can do thiswith clients that you already have.
It's okay to ask this question,even if you've been working
with them for some time.
I think, you know, It's probablymore likely than not going to be
(49:22):
appreciated that, you know, you'retaking the time to want to get to
know them, um, more or more deeply.
Um, but in terms of, okay, I'm,you know, if you're a professional,
that's from a majority culture, uh,and you want to support clients and
communities that are minority culture.
I think it's really important to audityour resources that you're already.
(49:46):
using, um, and asking yourself, youknow, is whatever I'm using, like,
you know, take one, take one ofyour resources for, I mean, it needs
your intake form, you know, is this,uh, actually geared towards, is it
inclusive of people with various,uh, varying intersectionality, right?
(50:07):
Um, and then really, reallycommitting to, like, regular and,
and ongoing Deep learning, um, youknow, we do our continued learning
or professional development.
So, you know, I would, I wouldinclude this, um, as a very
key component, um, right.
(50:29):
And I think other questions to askis, um, you know, the people that I'm
supporting, like if they're from aminority, um, culture or community,
you know, are they being exploited?
Are they, you know, Um, youknow, are they, are they
benefiting from what I'm doing?
Um, have they consented, um, to,you know, things that I'm wanting to
(50:51):
do with them or follow up for them?
Um, are they involved?
Um, you know, are they, are they leading?
You know, are they doingthings on their terms?
You know, really taking it back to them?
Because I think sometimeswe want to do it all.
And, uh, you know, again, that, thatis client centred, that's client led.
I think that's, um, somereally key reflection questions
(51:13):
and I love the prompt again.
It's never too late to startthat conversation or to
bring that up with a client.
If, if that's sort of been missingfrom people's intake process, um,
well, while we're on it, this isa little sidebar, I'll let it out.
Well, why don't we go into 10 whereyou just share some of the resources
and then we'll flip back to seven.
Yeah.
I
think I just felt it flows.
(51:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, yeah, no, that's somereally, really helpful kind of
big picture framework ideas.
And I know people love resources likespecifics, links, et cetera, et cetera.
Um, can you share some, and all ofthese, um, that Christina shares,
I'll either name or a full list.
(51:55):
I can, I'll link to themin the show notes as well.
So it's easy for you to pop overand find a bunch of people to
follow, resources to find, etc.
Um, share some of your favourites.
So who can we learn from,um, around sort of Black
neurodivergent creators out there?
Yeah, I mean, firstly, I am going toshout out to, um, my other, like, Black
(52:18):
audio HDR, um, I call them like mysisters, um, because they've, uh, they've
just helped me really like, Blossom.
And there is just, there's, there's,when you have, when you make a, have that
connection with community and especiallywhen it's through like race on top of it,
um, you know, being, being in a minorityrace, like, it's just so important.
(52:42):
So Kadija has been, youknow, a wonder, um, for me.
This year, and it's just like an endlesssupporter, um, Chennai as well, um, and
someone else that I have found reallyhelpful information, um, about the
(53:02):
Black Audie HDR experience is Alina.
Jean Lee, um, on Instagramand I think TikTok as well.
Um, I'm also going to share,um, some decolonising resources.
So, Dr Jennifer Mullenhas Decolonising Therapy.
(53:23):
Um, T Jamaica Pogue, Apologiesif I've mispronounced that.
Um, So that's DecolonisingNeuro, that one.
So Patricia is Pat Radical Therapist.
On Instagram, I'm very much, you know,finding things through Instagram.
Um, and then Myesha T.
Hill has Check Your Privilege.
(53:44):
So those are four decolonising resources.
Other resources to, uh, name thatI've found helpful, and I know
there are many else out there, butI've found helpful Autism in Black.
They're based in the US, um, you know,offering really, you know, They have
unique and valuable experiences of theautistic black experience, and they have
(54:05):
conferences throughout the year, andyeah, like online communities as well.
Autistic, they're another onlinecommunity, and they have cohorts.
It's every so often, um, for sixweeks, um, called Autism While Black.
And I participated in onerecently, uh, it was amazing.
(54:26):
And we covered so much from masking,to finding joy, to what our lives
are like privately versus publicly.
Uh, on Instagram there'sBlack and Neurodiverse.
Also there's Divine DesignAustralia, so Mahui is connecting
Black disabled women and non binaryfolks in Australia and overseas.
(54:48):
And also an in person event is comingsoon to NARM, to Melbourne, which is
super exciting, uh, yeah, so awesome.
And some books to, to alsorefer to are, um, Afrotistic.
And Autistic and Black are Experiencesof Growth, Progress and Empowerment.
And those are both, both ofthose titles are by, um, I think
(55:11):
it's Kala, Alan, Amisa, excuseme if I mistranslate the name.
But awesome resources,
start there.
Super, super helpful.
Thank you for sharing.
And I'm familiar with many and not all,so I'm also very, very excited to follow.
And, um, PS, anyone listening,please also follow Christina.
You know, she's just, youknow, getting, getting started.
(55:33):
I'm feeling that the cogsare just, they're clicking.
I don't even know.
The, the weeds aregrowing in the best way.
Yeah,
there we go.
Weeds are coming back.
Yeah.
Um, and, and you mentioned that autismin black conference, and that is
something you are going to be, um,sharing a presentation at coming up soon.
(55:55):
Yeah.
I am so thrilled about this.
I, I, you know, when I was in burnoutin April of this year, I, I attended
the online conference and I was justso inspired to be connected with
my community in a virtual space.
Uh, and I just, I made a goal for myself.
(56:16):
I said, I want to bepresenting at this conference.
So, the opportunity has come up and Isubmitted my proposal and it was accepted!
So, I'm going to be presenting atAutism and Black's inaugural Black
Girls and Women's Autism Summit.
And I'll be celebrating the uniqueexperiences of Black autistic girls
and non binary children who havespecial interests that differ from
(56:39):
what's considered culturally typical.
So this might look like skateboarding,anime, Manga, K pop, um, skiing
or snowboarding, heavy metal.
I mention these because these area bit like what I was into growing
up, and I didn't know other Blackkids that were interested in them.
So my focus would be on how wecan better understand and support
(57:01):
these special interests, especiallythrough the lens of communication.
cultural identity, and neurodiversityaffirming approaches, um, and attendees,
yeah, I hope to, they'll get out of it,is, you know, we're going to walk through
some practical strategies, foster thegenuine connections, um, embrace the
(57:23):
special interests, and create environmentswhere Black autistic girls and non
binary kids can truly thrive, and, Ijust see it all as really like, it's
shifting the perspectives and ensuringthat everyone's free to be themselves.
It's, uh, going to be amazing, important.
I'm so excited.
I registered for it, I think this morning?
(57:43):
Yes.
Really opened my eyes up.
Yeah.
So I hope I took my name
right.
First thing.
Um, but I will put the link tothat in the show notes as well,
because literally we are recordingthis on the 24th of September.
I believe you.
It was announced yesterday, wasn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I only just shared it,I think, last night.
So yeah.
And I'm actually getting,
unlike me, I'm getting the podcast episodeout, uh, either like today or tomorrow.
(58:05):
So when you're listening, all veryclose in time, very unusual for me,
but that's how we're rolling right now.
So yeah, it's, uh, it's in October.
The 19th of October is the event.
So, um, In US, so it'll be20th for anyone in Australia.
Good point.
Um, Thank you.
Uh, yes.
Time.
Time.
Um, yeah, anyway, link will bein the show notes, so go, go
(58:26):
follow and register for that.
And if it's after the fact, I'm surethese sort of things will come up.
So just go and follow a bunchof the resources that we're
sharing in the show notes.
Is there anything else,Christina, before we say goodbye
for now, until our next chat?
Yeah.
Anything else that you want to sharewith parents or professionals who
support neurodivergent childrenthat we haven't covered yet?
(58:48):
I do.
I, so I opened up this.
This podcast episode, uh, you know,talking about inner child work and,
you know, I think about oftentimes,you know, neurodivergent people,
we have, we have differences in ourbrains, like our brains are different,
um, it's, and difference is okay.
(59:11):
And so I think about, youknow, being, being little.
And being afraid of, you know, a monsterunder the bed, you know, if I dangle
my feet over the bed, like, there's amonster that's gonna just reach out and
get me and take me under the bed withhim, um, and I was thinking about that,
right, because, okay, being a child,Being fearful and like, you know, I
(59:35):
think it's actually time to make friendswith that monster under the bed, but
I know that facing fear, it's not easyand it's, it's gradual steps, just like
working through like cultural competency.
It's gradual steps.
So firstly, you know, I want to say, Isay, I want to say hello to that monster,
(59:56):
you know, wave, wave, wave to the monster.
I want to acknowledge the fear, um, youknow, I, I want to ask the monster as
well, um, you know, what is it, what isit afraid of, you know, ask if it's also
experiencing fear, and I want to ask themonster, like, what it wishes it could do
(01:00:16):
if it didn't have to stay under the bed.
You know, that's similar to askingyourself, what did you wish you could
do when you were little, that youwere told that you couldn't do, right?
Because the young ones that I support, um,you know, oftentimes they've probably been
told no, um, but just imagine, you know,what was that experience like for you?
(01:00:38):
Do we really want the same for them?
And now, you know, Imagine instead,if you were encouraged, if you were
supported to do that thing that youreally wanted to do and, and, you
know, that would've brought you joy.
So I say all of this because I, I think,you know, it's time for us to stop
being afraid of difference and, youknow, and rather like, it, it, we need
(01:01:03):
to meet that difference with curiosityand invite the difference to play.
Um, you know, let's not place anylimitations on the difference and
really just embrace our differences.
That is such a beautiful point.
Such a beautiful way to frame it.
Thank you so much.
Pleasure.
I'm actually seeing my quote of that,like, your, my, your quote of that.
(01:01:26):
Yeah!
It's really, it's beautiful.
It's, it's time, youknow, let's Let's listen.
Let's learn.
Let's connect.
Let's get excited about ourdifferences rather than other and
afraid and step away from differenceand not ignore difference either.
I think our differences are whatis so, so special, whether it's on
one dimension or many dimensions.
(01:01:47):
Yeah, that monster is, you know,probably scared, too, right?
Like, that weed, that weed, isit, is it really so unsightly?
Is it really so bad?
It's actually a dandelion.
It's beautiful.
Yeah,
it's beautiful.
It's beautiful.
Okay, so it's different, butit's, it's, you don't need to
be afraid of difference, right?
(01:02:08):
Like, let's, let's just embrace,let's embrace difference.
We don't need to change it.
I love it.
Thank you, Christina, so muchfor sharing your insights, your
perspectives, your visions, yourstory, and your vulnerability as well.
Like really, really appreciate it.
And anyone listening, I think bothof us would really welcome, you know,
any feedback, comments, questions.
(01:02:29):
Um, I'm just priming us to haveanother chat in about a year and
see where the weeds have grown to.
Yeah.
Yeah, stronger than ever.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
It's, yeah, I've been looking forwardto this so much and yeah, I had
a, I had a really wonderful time.
It's a real pleasure.
Thanks, Christina.
See ya!
(01:02:49):
See ya!
Thank you so much for sharingthis space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
(01:03:10):
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day.
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:26):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:47):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:07):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
. Hello, Christina.
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity podcast.
Hi, thanks for having me, Adina.
I am so excited to be on this episodewith you and share a bit of my story about
(01:27):
understanding my Neurodivergence and,uh, in return, really coming into my own.
So yeah, I'm ready to get into it.
It's, uh, we're going to have so much,
so much important discussion.
I can't wait to hear and learnfrom you and chat with you.
So Christina Schmidt is an ADHD,an autistic ADHD, a multiply
(01:51):
dialectal multicultural black woman.
She lives, works, plays, and createson the unceded lands of Wurundjeri
country in Nam, Melbourne, Victoria.
Victoria, Australia, and I am on thelands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal
people in Sydney, Australia.
Born in the US, Kristina has spentthe majority of her adult life
overseas in Austria and now Australia.
I feel like you're workingyour way through the alphabet.
(02:14):
Yeah, a little bit.
She works with paediatricand adult clients.
She specialises in neuroaffirming practiceand my goodness, what an amazing take
and, uh, and depth of understandingshe has, which she's going to share
with us about this area of practice,Um, and yeah, she works a lot with AAC,
Augmented and Alternative Communication,Gestalt Language Processing, a bit
(02:36):
of orofacial, I always say this onewrong, orofacial myofunctional therapy.
I got it.
Did I get it?
I got it.
Yes, the real tongue twister, uh, anddoes some feeding support as well.
Social justice advocacy is deeplyintertwined with her work due to
her strong justice sensitivity.
Um, and I mean, I might say not onlydue to that, maybe I think due to, you
(02:59):
know, just being an amazing human withwho thinks and cares deeply as well.
I wonder.
Thank
you.
Yeah, yeah.
A hundred percent.
And Christina's passionate abouthelping people discover and embrace
their unique strengths, sharingthem with the world in the ways
and at times that they feel ready.
What a, what a breath of fresh air.
Yeah, thank you.
(03:20):
It feels that way whenI'm supporting people.
Yeah,
I think that's
right.
That little last bit that's like,at that point where you feel ready,
you know, we're not thrustingourselves and our support of people
where we're, when they are readyfor it, we can support and be there.
I think it's so important.
Yeah, so Christina runs Free To BeMe Speech Therapy, which is such a
(03:42):
beautifully named practice as well.
Um, I get very opinionatedabout people's business names.
I know everyone thinks very hard aboutthem and some I love and some not so much.
And the moment I heard yours,I thought, You have nailed it.
And it just came to me, really.
It felt right.
It's like how I transitioned fromworking solely with pediatric clients
(04:04):
to also now working with adults.
And I used to reallystray away from adults.
Because I hadn't really found my,my niche, but now that I work with
other late diagnosed autistic and ADHDer clients, I just feel like, in a
way, it's actually like my calling.
I can go into the session and it justfeels, and at the end of the session, I
(04:29):
just feel I think it's really importantto reflect back and go, wow, that, that
happened and it just happens so naturally.
So with Free2Be Me, speech therapy,I just thought, I, first of all,
I want to feel free to be me.
And I really want the same for everyone.
The people that I provide the servicesto, uh, it's really free to be me and free
(04:53):
to be seen, free to be heard, free to beunderstood exactly as you are, come as you
are, so, yeah, I'm so happy that it justcame to me and I felt like, That's it,
free to be me speech therapy, there we go.
I love that you see it from bothaspects, as it's almost the cue to
(05:13):
you to remind yourself to be yourself,and then as you're modelling that for
your clients, then that opens up, I'msure, the trust for them to be freer
to be themselves, which doesn't rhyme.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I wish it did.
Christina, can you share a bit withus about your journey to understanding
your neurodivergence, any keymoments, realisations, anything
that you feel happy to share here?
(05:34):
I would love to.
As I think about my exploringmy neurodiversity, I think about
who I am at the centre of things.
I am an internaliser and I'm constantlyreflecting and with that said, I think
(05:56):
about being autistic and being an ADHDer.
And how I'm so aware of so much that'saround me, just constantly getting that
input and managing that and sometimeshaving difficulty with managing that.
Um, and I always, I'm always taking awaya vast amount of things every millisecond,
(06:21):
and it can be really difficult to filterthe things out that I'm, more sensitive
to, which depletes my, my spoon supplyand on that topic, as a Black, ADHD er, I
actually have a theory that Black peopledon't even get the spoons to begin with.
(06:41):
I, I think that we're actually given alot of forks, you know, sometimes we might
be able to Borrow some spoons, but I justfeel like from the start they were already
taken from us, um, and that's, that'sopening up a whole other can of worms, and
of course I'd love to talk about it, I'mvery passionate about it, but I'm going
to park that there for the time being.
(07:03):
And, um, We will come back to
this, I think that fork,Deeply interesting.
What a metaphor.
Keep going.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and yeah, so that's justa point of reflection really,
um, for, for the listeners, forthe, the readers of the podcast.
So back to me reflecting on, on anythingand everything at any given moment.
(07:26):
Um, I think about exploringmy own neurodiversity and I
think about the question, why?
Not, not why am I neurodivergent?
Um, you know, not, not a real,a real surface level query.
Um, but why have I made thedecision to explore at the age
that I am being in my mid thirties?
(07:49):
Um, and I, I don't mean that I've,you know, I've always felt that
I was different, and, well, no, Ido, I do, I've, you know, probably
from the time I was little, I'vefelt like I am, I'm different.
I've always been searching forthe reasons why, I always want
to know why, um, and so, I, Yeah.
(08:12):
So I, I mean, what is it important tome to find, to find out who I am, right?
My y y Um, so with that said,I've been starting, well,
I, I'm on my journey, right?
So I started, I'm, I'm on my journeyand to really further understand,
I needed to get to, I need toreach and, and find my inner child.
(08:36):
Again, I feel like I've left herbehind, I've forgotten about her,
I stopped thinking about her andreally start my healing process for
my inner child, for little Christina.
And some things come to me when I'mactually not actively thinking about them.
So, And, and a part of my, my healingjourney, a part of healing my, my inner
(09:02):
child is to, to do things that I, I'mnot always conscious to at the time.
Um, so I was doing a bit of gardening andfor me, this was a big thing because for
quite a while I had initiation paralysis.
(09:23):
And thankfully, through understandingthat I'm an ADHD er and that I've
been able to take medication, um, it'sreally opened up my world to getting
past that initiation paralysis a lotof the time now, which is fantastic.
You know what?
I'm going to, I'm just going to interruptlike a classic ADHD er and just show you,
(09:44):
um, my Lego, like the flower Lego, whichI totally, I guess I initiated one of the
stems, um, the first week I was on ADHD
meds,
um, That was a while ago.
That was a few months ago.
But you're inspiring me to keep,keep my Lego gardening going.
Keep going.
I'm, I'm totally.
(10:05):
Okay.
It's just, yeah, look, I could, Ihave other Lego kits and it usually
takes me like months to finally getto them, but I, I totally get that.
Um, yes.
So, so as I was gardening,I was weeding, right?
I was pulling out thesegorgeous little plants.
Um, you know, but we callthem weeds, they're weeds, um.
(10:30):
And yeah, I thought I, I didn'twant them to keep growing on my
fence because it's not great.
Right.
And I noticed just how strong theywere and how long they were and,
and, and how deep some of the,the wheat, the roots of them were.
And I was thinking, wow, I've beenworking on finding my inner child
(10:53):
again, doing my inner child work and.
I was reflecting on really how deepwe need to go when we're, we're
doing this inner child work andwe're needing to find our roots.
And it's, it's really about getting tothe root of ourselves and I just found
it really intriguing because There's somuch that I want to rekindle and I want
(11:16):
to reconnect with myself, but it's alsoscary because there's a lot to unravel.
Um, so there's a huge part of the askingwhy, like asking those reasons and
exploring neurodiversity, and it's goingback as well to reconnect with my inner
child, because I am late diagnosed.
(11:38):
I've been.
Masking for a very long time since I was,I was really young and I actually need to
do a lot of, a lot of work so I can findout what little Christina needed and what
little Christina wanted and then integratethat with the person I've grown to be now.
And, you know, with those weeds, right?
(12:01):
The weeds.
You know, they, they might seemlike they're, they're noxious
or they're, they're unsightlyand we want to pull them out.
We're so quick to pull them out.
But we've, they, they pop back up.
Like they are so resilient.
And we've like, I think of the dandelionand how much we can do with the dandelion.
Like you can make tea out of it.
(12:22):
You can make food from the leaves.
You can make wishes!
Like, there's a whole cycle, and it evenaligns with, like, the moon and the sun
and the stars, and I'm so into that,and I thought, these weeds, and some
of them are so strong, they're hard forme to pull out, and I thought, being
neurodivergent, like, we, those of usthat are neurodivergent, like, we are
(12:43):
the weeds, you know, in the world, inour society, and sometimes people I want
to pull this out, but then it's likethat reminder that, hey, I'm actually
really awesome for the ecosystem.
I have a lot to offer.
I'm strong.
I'm resilient.
I might look different or, or, you know,I am different to the flowers around
(13:05):
me, but I still have a lot to offer.
A purpose.
I still have a reason why I'm here.
I, I'm absolutely loving this metaphor.
I'm seeing a million visuals of it.
Um, like maybe a children's book of yours.
Like this is, yeah.
Oh my gosh.
And, and you can go further with it.
You know, weeds might seem prickly.
Yeah.
Not seem so beautiful.
(13:27):
They're not all like dandelions.
Um, and we can go with that.
But, um, Yeah.
We all have something to offer.
Oh, I love this.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
We could stick on this question forever.
It could go deep.
Yeah.
But
we might come back to it, you know,the weeds might come up as a theme
and I could see, um, you know, forthose listening, I, uh, like to send
questions ahead of time to my, uh, myguests, because that's what I like, a
(13:51):
bit of preparation or an opportunityto, and I can see that Christina had
written in there, we are the weeds.
And I was so curious and nowI'm so excited about this idea.
Yeah.
Now,
now, now, you know, nowyou, you, you get it.
Hopefully.
I always feel like I want to recap theseconversations in, you know, a year or so.
Um, you know, even maybe we will, maybewe'll come back together and, and find
(14:15):
out where are you at with, with yourselfconcept and that exploration and, you
know, maybe very personal as well, but
yeah.
How I started the book, youknow, I started writing the book.
So many ideas.
Totally.
Um, it's fascinating.
And I think the message there is,you know, no matter when you were
diagnosed, no matter, like foreverybody, no matter where you are
(14:37):
in the journey, whether it's a formaldiagnosis or not, it's, it's a journey.
It is going to be ongoing processing,possibly in loops and in cycles.
And, um, you've kind of reminded me that.
Two years ago, when I went throughmy diagnosis, it was just over, it
was two years and one month ago.
Um, I was very reflective goingback to all these past experiences.
(14:59):
It was like, I was dissectingall these past experiences very
methodically with a new lens.
Yeah.
You've reminded me that I've actuallyput that aside through the busyness of
life and kind of left that for a bit.
And I actually want to revisit it.
So I thank you for that.
Yeah, that's all right.
Uh, for me, I'm, it was so.
(15:20):
Amazing to be, you know, I wasn'twearing gloves when I was gardening.
I was getting dirt under my nails, which,I mean, that's a bit of a sensory thing.
I'm like, oh, I was like,I just, you know what?
I just, yeah, I just, I just, Ineed to feel the earth right now.
I remember when I was a child and I'ddig through the soil and I'd find worms
and slugs and, you know, I, I justwas like, this is little Christina.
(15:46):
This is, This is what I need right now.
Okay, you've gone to worms and digging.
I have to tell you about the worm game.
Oh, please do.
This is one
of my, my personal narratives abouthow darn weird I was as a child.
Embrace the weirdness, love the weirdness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, at some point in my childhood,uh, maybe around age nine or
(16:07):
so, I invented the worm game.
I hate worms.
I don't mind spiders.
Don't mind cockroaches that much.
Don't love them.
But like, hard kind of crittersare okay, but squiggly,
squishy ones, absolutely not.
No thank you.
Um, and so the worm game goes like this.
You dig in the soil until you find aworm, and then you've lost the game.
(16:27):
Oh, that's the game.
Oh, that's like the other game whereif you think about it, you lose.
And so I've just lost that game.
So thanks for that.
Yeah.
And, uh, but I did it repetitively andI'd have all these multiple rounds of
like digging till I found a worm, freakmyself out, feel like I've, I've failed.
I've lost it and I better try again.
And the goal is to lose it.
There's a lot to read into that one.
(16:48):
Yeah, there is.
Oh my goodness.
But anyway, let's gocome back to your story.
Um, and obviously, you know, you live atthe intersection of multiple identities.
Yeah.
I'd love to hear your personalexperience about how you experience
being both black and an autistic ADHD.
How has that shaped who you are?
(17:09):
How has it impacted your life, your work?
Anything you'd love to share around that.
Yeah, the way that I'm gonna shareand frame this is, to me, like, the
quintessential, being black, beingautistic, being an ADHD er, I'm gonna,
I'm going to share it with you from,like, my, sort of, sensory experience,
(17:33):
and You know, I think about, okay, like,what, what is it to be a Black ADHD
er from, from my perspective, right?
It's, it's the, for me, like,being a young child and My dad, who
would often do my hair, like my momwould too, but I had a lot of hair.
(17:53):
So, you know, I think about like thesmells from the hair grease that was used
to, you know, help to, to hydrate my hairand, and to keep it, keep it healthy.
And I think about The feeling ofmoisturiser and Vaseline on my skin,
(18:14):
and I think of like the most wonderfulsmells of soul food, like it, it, it
reaches the depths of your soul, right?
Um, from early in the morning, right?
My dad would put on collard greens andsmoked ham hocks on the stove and it
would just fill the home with like, youknow, it's almost like you could just jump
(18:38):
back in time to your an to my ancestorsthat would do the same sort of thing.
And, um, I also can hear my mom goingmm, mm, mm as she's shaking her head
because either it's something that'samiss or there's something that's,
that's hilarious depending on theway that she's used it, um, that
(18:59):
she's, that she's expressed herself.
Uh, you know, I think, I alsothink of my, my mom saying serde.
for Saturday because she was raised by hergrandparents who were southern in the US.
So that was her, her dialect.
And it was different formine because I grew up in the
Pacific Northwest of the US.
Um, but you know, this ishow deeply I, I relate.
(19:25):
And I, and I, and you know, my experienceof the world is often through, you
know, like my, my senses and Um, youknow, what I, and what I see, what
I smell, what I feel, even beyondthat, um, you know, interoception or
sometimes lack of, of, of interoception,like reading my body signals.
(19:47):
But, you know, a lot of things I'm,I'm very like hyper aware to, um, you
know, I also, I also think about the,the sound of my dad code switching.
You know him speaking differently and itsounded differently when we were in some
public spaces versus when we're at home.
And I remember he, um, and my dad hasan engineer degree and you know, he
(20:13):
even, he's, Just so great with mathand science, and he's helped me with,
you know, understanding that when I wasin school, and I think about the time
when we went to my math teacher in highschool, and my dad, he needed to show
her how to teach the class, becausewhen I came home confused, his engineer
(20:33):
degree said otherwise, Yeah, this, I canunderstand why this is not being taught
to you in a way, or even your class, ina way that you're going to understand.
So, you know, how has it beenfor me, being Black, being an
ADHD er, I've shaped who I am.
Like, so that's, that's, that's how.
(20:54):
It's really that cultural aspect.
Um, and, you know, when it comes tomy work life, you know, a lot of what
I do, And in the name free to be mespeech therapy, like I'm bringing
myself into what I'm doing, right?
Yes, I have my boundaries.
Right?
(21:14):
With work.
But also, a lot of it is me.
I am showing up as me.
That is why I decided when I startedFree to Be Me Speech Therapy, which was
only about three months ago, Um, youknow, I went, I'm going to just make it
known that I now understand I'm autistic.
I now understand I'm an ADHD er.
I'm building all of this intoFree to Be Me Speech Therapy.
(21:37):
So there's no going, there'sno guessing, there's no, you
know, walking around it anymore.
This is me here.
Here I am.
I love those descriptions of your,your life, your experiences through the
sensory lens and, and other experiential,er, experiential aspects as well.
And I guess I'm wondering,it's a thought experiment.
I don't know how helpful it isor how accessible it is for you.
(22:00):
So you're welcome to skip it.
Cause I didn't even, I'mjust thinking of it now.
Um, can you.
Imagine any of your experiences and maybeeven thinking about masking specifically
as a child, where you may have had tomask in a different way, being black
compared to if you had been white and,you know, with your same neurotype,
(22:21):
but without the knowledge, obviously.
Yeah.
I think about certain ways that Iwould communicate things Because of
my, my tone and that, that can be a,that can be a common autistic, uh,
experience is, you know, saying thingsthe way that they, they are, right?
(22:45):
And sometimes it comes out,just, just comes out, right?
And, uh, it doesn't necessarilyreflect the, the feeling behind it.
But I know for me, because Um, and, youknow, being Black, if I said something
in a certain way, then I would beportrayed, you know, like in a really, in
(23:06):
a really negative, um, stereotype, right?
That I was an angry Blackwoman or Black, you know, girl.
Um, and, you know, it can, um, So, um,you know, things that would lead to me
not getting access to things that I needor getting in trouble, you know, like
(23:29):
being sent to the principal or, you know,having to speak to the teacher after
class or after school, um, you know,those are the things I would be really
aware of and, you know, , it wasn't,and, and it was because I was black.
Like I knew going in into that, if I, ifI expressed myself and I said certain,
something a certain way, and it maybeit's 'cause I was uncomfortable with, with
(23:49):
something that I was experiencing in themoment, I knew that I had to perhaps yeah.
Say it with a, a certain tone eventhough it's like, oh, I'd rather not,
um, otherwise, I, I, I just knew how Iwould be portrayed as, as being black.
So, you know, I know that I.
It is probably one of the very fewPR privileges that I have being able
(24:12):
to mask because not every autisticperson is, is able to do that.
Right.
But for me, uh, a lot of timesit's, it is for safety reasons.
Like It is, it is.
Yeah.
It, it can be so that I,I keep my, my life right.
Like I, I, yeah.
Um, so it's a needed thing, but yeah.
(24:35):
It's such a mixed blessingthat you have that ability.
And also, gosh, wouldn't it begreat if none of us had to use it.
And I would imagine that from whatyou've described and what I imagine,
um, as a white person, you know, it'sa nice thing to be able to change your
tone and maybe shift it up so that.
You know, other people may perceive youas a little bit gentler or something, but
(24:57):
it may be non optional for black people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause the repercussions are just,they're just vastly different, right?
It's not just like, Oh, youknow, you're being rude.
It's yeah.
It's, it's beyond that.
It's the, yeah.
Um, just, yeah, not then it's justlike my access to things might be cut
(25:18):
off and I, and I very well need it.
Like I think of.
medically, like medical appointments.
Right.
Um, and if, and I, and it's, I'veunfortunately had it happen to me before.
Um, and I didn't know at thetime that I was autistic.
Um, so yeah, it just, it compoundsthe situation, but, you know, I didn't
(25:42):
get access to what I needed becauseI was seen as an angry black woman.
And it happens far too often in ourworld and yeah, and depending on what it
is, like that, it can be life or death.
It can be life or death.
And that racialised prejudiceis, I imagine in many cases it's
(26:04):
very overt and then in many othercases I imagine it's covert.
Yeah.
It's just present and.
I mean, I'm going to simplify it in amoment and just say it bloody sucks.
It's not okay.
It's like, I, uh, I'd like to shake theworld up and, uh, stop that happening
because that is, yeah, I want to swear.
(26:25):
I try not to swear on this podcast,but yeah, I don't, yeah, I, I see the
world in sometimes very simple forms.
It doesn't make sense whenthe world doesn't match that.
And the way that I mean by simpleforms is, we are all humans.
This is my simplistic,idealistic view of humanity.
We're all humans, we're all valid,we're all worth equal humanness.
(26:49):
One human.
Awesome.
Um, isn't that enough?
Can't we just treat humans as humans?
No, apparently it's not.
The world is not so simple.
Yeah.
And, and I wonder then yourexperiences in your adult life
and your professional world.
So how has your experience been?
Being as a black ODHDer inspeech pathology, um, in
(27:09):
these professional fields.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in other spaces in professional life.
Yeah.
Speech pathology is, uh, it'swhite, a white majority profession.
It's, it's white dominated.
So, already, andespecially in Australia, I.
(27:32):
I don't know of many other Black speechpathologists, um, so it can feel very
barren and, and, and desolate andunmarked territory and like there goes
the tumbleweed just tumbling across.
Um, but I, I don't let that stop me.
(27:55):
I don't let that, I don't, I don't,I'm not going to see it as a barrier.
Instead, I, I'm carving my own path bydoing what I know, uh, that I do best.
And, um, you know, I, the ADHDer inme, like I'm taking those side quests.
(28:17):
You know, when I'm going with myinterests, because I have so many,
um, I'm picking up the tools along theway and, um, yeah, and, and, and the
part, I'm building up my community.
So I'm finding other Black audieHDers, uh, that are exploring too,
you know, I'm saying, hey, comewith me, you know, we've got this.
(28:40):
So, yeah, I think also likewhen it comes to navigating.
The spaces and I, I, I enter themsometimes and I, you know, some
of my clients that I speak to.
That I, that I support and other peoplethat I speak with, you know, when you're
in the neurodiversity affirming space,it can just be so amazing and so lovely.
(29:05):
And sometimes you go outside of that spaceand it just forever, like, Lion King.
And Simba and Mufasa and Simba,you know, I'm Simba and I'm asking
Mufasa, like, what's that over there?
You know, I'm being told, like,don't, don't go over there.
Like, it's, that is not neurodiversityaffirming, just, you know, Yeah, beware.
(29:26):
So yeah, yeah, sometimes I enterthose spaces and I go, Oh, cool.
No, thank you.
So it's really proceeding with caution.
Um, and especially for me, like, PDAis strong, the injustice sensitivity is
strong, so they do drive me to like testthe waters a little bit and like read,
(29:51):
you know, take the measurements of thetoxicity, right, so I'll then place a flag
in those spaces that are contaminated and,you know, I let other black people know.
Black ADHDers know that it's unsafe,um, the reason I do that is because
in, uh, Black culture that I'm familiarwith, at least, um, being African
(30:11):
American, you know, a lot of thetimes we have to protect ourselves
by telling each other about servicesor, you know, things in general.
Going to stores or anything that that'sunsafe because it won't be shared, you
know, generally or vastly with everyone.
(30:33):
So a lot of the information that weshare, it's usually, um, you know, very,
very oral, um, like, like narratives,like, like we share, like oral story.
Um, right.
And, you know, that, that's justsomething for me that I, culturally, I
know, uh, something that has to be done.
(30:54):
So I'm very used to, to doing that.
Um, and, you know, warning,it's just historical, like it's
historically done to warn others.
Um, because it's a necessity and it stillis, so yeah, sometimes I'll kind of go
and I'll, and I'll kind of see what's thisall about, like sometimes in like Facebook
groups and such, and then I get, you know,that real reality check, um, it's not as
(31:19):
though I didn't, I didn't really know, butit can be Very confronting and harmful,
um, especially when I'm not listened toand I'll just say things and yeah, um,
well, cognitive dissonance that occurs.
I wonder if you have a bit of apersonal guidepost for yourself
when, when you kind of engage inthese maybe mild to moderately unsafe
(31:44):
spaces and challenge and advocate.
And when you step back and say,this is not for me, I, I am out of
here.
Well, I, more recently havemade a boundary for myself.
I think I, I, this, like it'sjust to be safe, most Facebook
groups I don't engage in.
I don't kinda, I, I don't, I don'trespond to things because I'm like,
(32:08):
you know, I, I, I already know.
You know, pattern recognition.
I know how this is going to go.
And I just don't want toput myself in harm's way.
So with certain groups, the onlyinteraction I'll do is, you know,
if I feel like this is going todirectly come back and benefit me,
that's like the boundary that I'veplaced for myself at the moment.
(32:29):
Totally, totally fair.
And it's such a burden on anymarginalised person, let alone multiply
marginalised, um, person to, to,Put it all on those individuals to
say, you've got to do all the work.
Um, and I guess we didn't flagthis as a question, so I'm
just chucking it out here.
Um, well, we sort of, we sort of,no, haven't really gone there, but,
(32:52):
um, is there anything that whitefolks like me, um, can do better to
be advocates and be voices and takesome of the burden off of white folks?
Marginalised people, black people,when, when things come up in, we'll
say Facebook groups for argument'ssake, where a lot of trash comes up.
(33:12):
Yeah, I think the first step is reallybeing, you know, being, Being ready
to unlearn, to relearn, or, or toactually learn what's, what's needed.
It's acknowledging that thereare marginalised people that,
(33:37):
yeah, are, are constantly putin harm's way, and challenging.
Implicit bias, you know, things, ideas,opinions that, that you, you already hold
and, and may not really recognise that itis something that, that you, you actually
(33:58):
do believe in to a certain extent.
Um, and I have put together a resource.
Um, it's a competency checkand it has some links to, um,
like free, they're all free.
And, you know, there's a,there's a starting point to
check your implicit bias.
Like it's a, it's an anonymousonline sort of course.
(34:21):
Quiz, and there's several different areasthat you can check your implicit bias
about, maybe, um, you know, the weightof people, or the sexual orientation of
people, or people with darker skin tones.
So, I think it's going through thisprocess of, you know, I want to be on a
learning journey, you know, and I wantto do, I do, I want to do better, right?
(34:45):
I want to know better.
I want to do better.
So how am I going to do better?
You know, I'm gonna, I'm going to takethat time to start on learning things
and really, you know, get to a pointwhere I can be more confident that I
can call these things out and I canadvocate because it's, it's, It's
not the responsibility of the peoplethat are already put in harm's way to
(35:08):
continue, like, endlessly be fightingfor, you know, to be heard, to be, you
know, recognised and understood and havecredit, you know, going back to them.
Like, it's just not fair and it's thatadditional exhaustion but, you know,
if you can really have people thatare in, you know, majority support.
(35:31):
Cultures and such to, to advocate, um,right, and to see something and go, oh,
not only do I know that's not right, butI'm going to say something, you know,
because I very likely have a lot less tolose than this person that is multiply
marginalised because they're, yeah.
(35:52):
That's another key point.
Um, it's not just about taking theburden off multiply marginalised people
to do all that labour for themselves.
It's actually less personal, youknow, if it's not your community and
you're there to support, to, to throwyour support behind or to call out
racism or ableism or, you know, yeah,section of both of those and other.
(36:13):
Um, it's less of a, an emotional,probably a physical toll as well.
Um, yes, we all, we all have to, andI think it takes a lot of humility.
I think we'll talk about this morein a moment, like some, some of
those other key ways that somebody.
Who says that they are neurodiversityaffirming, you know, what that really
(36:36):
means on a big, on a global scale, and acouple of sidebars before we dive into it.
One sidebar is that resource youmentioned, I will link in the show
notes so that people can get that.
The other sidebar, which relates to, Ithink the question we'll chat about in a
moment, which is, um, I started readingan article that popped up in my world
yesterday and I haven't read it yet.
(36:57):
Finished it.
In fact, it was onlypublished three days ago.
Oh yeah.
Um, is neurodiversity a global,northern white paradigm?
I dunno if you're aware of it.
Mm.
You
helpful or
no?
Not yet.
Not three days.
Not, not yet.
But please, yeah, popit in the show notes.
Send it through.
I'd love to have a look at it.
I will.
It is looking like, uh, areally nice compliment to our
(37:19):
discussion and really interesting.
Um, so yeah, I'm likeabout halfway through, but.
I will absolutely link to it.
And I thought this, this soundslike up your alley for sure.
And it should be up thealley of everyone listening.
Yes.
Um, and, and this is it.
This, the first time I read this concept.
It surprised me and I thought, hang on,neurodiversity affirming and cultural
(37:41):
competency, how do they even fit together?
And then I have It
actually is a part of theneurodiversity paradigm.
Like if you look into it,it, it, it, it is listed.
So that's why, yeah,
yeah.
It's a fascinating question.
I think it goes kind of aninteresting direction in that article.
Um, you know, asking the question of, isthis neurodiversity affirming movement
(38:04):
basically a, um, a white concept?
Is it, is it completely erasing, uh,and missing the black stories and
the, uh, well, culturally diversestories from around the world.
I'll let the article do its thing andplease, um, everyone go and check it out.
Cause it looks really fascinating.
Um, I'm going to let you do your thing.
So I want to hear, Christina, um, yeah,your, your concerns about when you see
(38:28):
there are services out there that aresupporting neurodivergent people, they
claim to be neurodiversity affirming, andyou notice a lack of cultural competency.
What do you, what do you see that'smissing or where can people kind
of check in with themselves andimprove their cultural competency?
Yeah, so, I mean, being, being Black,being a speech pathologist, I've
(38:53):
experienced it firsthand, where, youknow, a place that I've, I've worked at
will say that they want to be able tosay that, you know, as a whole, um, they
are, you know, Neurodiversity affirming.
And I've, you know, thought,no, no, pump the brakes.
You're not there yet.
Um, you know, it, because for me, uh,as someone that's, that's working,
(39:16):
you know, as an employee or acontractor, I'm not even being honoured.
And I am very clear about The needs thatI, I have and they're not being met.
Um, at the time I didn't say it wasbecause I was autistic or an ADHD
or because, yeah, I also for safetyreasons, like sometimes, you, you
(39:38):
know, like you can have a thermometer.
Um, and I think that's a really goodexample of who are the people that I
tell, how much do I tell them, right?
I knew it wasn't safe forme to, so no I didn't.
Um, but it's, yeah, it's reallyobvious when, uh, you know, a
place wants to, but already, youknow, internally, they're not.
(39:59):
So, yeah.
It's, yeah, it's not, it's not okay towant to broadly do it, you know, it's
a part of that like bandwagoning or,you know, providing that lip service.
And, you know, the marketing to do so, butit's really all just for profit, right?
It's prioritised over people, um,that they're purporting to help.
(40:24):
So, that's, yeah, or, you know, likethe language that's used will be ASD.
Um, or, or person first language.
And, you know, for, for someone that,that is autistic, and if that's the
term that they use fully, you know,that's, that's how they want to
identify, that's valid, that is okay.
(40:46):
Um, but the majority of the autisticcommunity, um, you know, say that,
Identity First Language is muchpreferred and that's why I refer
to myself as Autistic, right?
Um, and also, uh, ASD and Autistichave the same amount of syllables.
So, we are not saving, we're not savingourselves time, you know, by saying ASD.
(41:10):
Um, so, if that helps, um, Actually, my,the person that did my, my autism, um,
the formal assessment said that to me andI, and I said, you know, absolutely true.
You know, actions to, to, to do areto really affirm diverse cultural y y
(41:31):
It's being anti racist.
It's being inclusive ofcultural differences.
So it's taking into community languagevariations, um, valuing the linguistic
diversity within disabled communities,within the BIPOC, that's Black Indigenous,
(41:52):
People of Colour, disabled communities,um, and the LGBTQIA plus community.
Another way is being.
We talk about in speech pathology a lot oftime being client centred and client led,
but inclusive in that is understandingthat there's the intersection of
(42:13):
race and neurodivergence and genderand other identities that shape each
person's needs and goals, so let's notforget that That all comes apart of
being client centred and another waythat I think about is a neurodiversity
affirming service, it's going toactively challenge, Not only ableism,
(42:37):
but also racism, also sexism, alsoclassism, and other systemic oppressions.
So, yeah, it's beyond just, okay,this person's seeking my services
because they're disabled, so I'mjust going to focus on the ableism.
All the other things that come alongwith them that they also identify as.
(42:59):
And so, yeah, it's just recognisingthat these systems all intersect and,
um, it very much is, is affecting thelives of, like, this is a lot, this is
how neurodivergent BIPOC and LGBTQIAplus individuals experience their life.
This is what they'recoming to our services.
(43:20):
Um, you know, with, so for us not toacknowledge or validate or, you know,
find out more about those, those areasof their identity, I feel it's just,
you know, we're, we're falling short.
We're coming up short.
Yeah.
And it strikes me as a much.
(43:41):
Like a true, a deeper way of being clientcentred, not just we are client centred
and we've written it on paper, justlike we are neurodiversity affirming.
We work with ASD children.
Um, these things that are very dissonant.
And, um, I guess thinking from a servicelevel, is there anything, you know, you,
you have your own service, you createdit, you grew it from the ground up.
(44:04):
Um, and, um, Is there anything thatmaybe you did in that process that
you could suggest for other servicesso that they can be more culturally
competent and have that as partof their, their support framework?
Yeah, from the very beginning, um, youknow, I think about like client intake
and gathering that background information.
(44:28):
And I have a question inmy, my template that I use.
That is, you know, it opens upby, by saying, are you, are you
okay if I ask you a bit about yourcultural background, your values?
I want to be able to understand you,you know, better and as best as,
(44:50):
and support you as best as I can.
And.
I know sometimes families will,will say, um, or like a client
will say, Oh, no, no, nothing.
Um, but so I'll, I'll, I'll addon to that by saying, you know,
maybe this is just values thatyou hold dearly within yourself.
It's your household.
(45:10):
Or within, you know, you and yourfriends in case you know maybe they're
not close with their family and thisis an adult that I'm speaking to.
Um, you know so, culture can be you know,as big or as small as we want to make it.
Um, right.
It's not always just, you know, our,our, our cultural background because,
for example, like our ethnicity, right?
(45:32):
Or, or regionally.
But it can even be, uh, you know,within, within your friend group that,
you know, your friend group means a lotto you, and these are the values that
you, you hold really, really dearly.
And that could be some niceinsight into, um, a client's life.
And, you know, I'm.
Still been able to acknowledge andaffirm their, their cultural values.
(45:58):
Um, so, yeah, I think it's, it'sa lot of time we, we hear like,
Meet them where they're at.
We need to meet ourclients where they're at.
And so it is including thecultural factors, right?
Um, so, thinking about, like,what, what protective mechanisms
might they have due to oppression?
(46:20):
Like, that can kind of be a littlebit of a prompt to kind of remind you,
like, You know, consider this personwho I'm supporting and, and, you know,
who they are, and they're coming to me,um, because maybe they may not always
know, which is okay, right, and theymay not always want to share either.
Maybe they do come from a culture whereThat's just not something that you do
(46:44):
with someone that you don't know so well.
Um, or perhaps, you know, it mightbe going to an elder in their
community to get that information.
So, yeah, it's, it's, Reallybuilding up, you know, firstly,
like, like your knowledge of beingable to get that knowledge from
(47:04):
a client that you're supporting.
Um, and, and how to do thatis, is starting with addressing
your own implicit biases, right?
So that's that journey of unlearningorder, in order to really learn, right?
So it's, the responsibility isfirst on us, then we can go forward
with supporting our clients.
I love that way of framing, um, you'rekind of coaching the individual to be able
(47:28):
to identify their cultural backgrounds andto feel safe to share that with you and
to check in with that, you know, you'rechecking, do you feel okay to share this?
And here's why it's important.
Um, and I imagine for some people,maybe even for everyone to some degree,
you know, we sort of are inside ourculture and some of us may not notice.
All the different cultures andsubcultures, uh, and groups that
(47:51):
we belong to because that's justour normal, that's what it is.
Yeah, especially for
a majority culture, right?
Yeah, so, um, and if someone, if someonesays, you know, either they don't know
or maybe they're not comfortable toshare, I would just leave it, you know,
through building rapport and, you know,observing, um, You know, as you get, as
(48:14):
you're working with them, you can, youcan gather that information that way.
Um, but at least by asking the question,you know, do you feel comfortable to
share and, and giving a reason why, um,it just opens it up rather than, you
know, what are your cultural values?
Yeah.
No, I like, I really lovethat way of framing it.
And it's part of thatrelationship building over time.
(48:36):
Is there anything else that you wouldsay, and I know we will actually talk
about, um, And if you want to findout more about specific resources
at the end, you've got a bunch andI will link all of those as well.
But is there anything else that you wantedto kind of share with any therapists or
professionals from majority cultures,um, around how to make better support
communities from people from communitiesand minority cultures in their practice?
(49:00):
Yeah, because I mentioned, youknow, that's just one question
that I've built in and fromthe start in my intake process.
So I get a new client.
And by the way, you can do thiswith clients that you already have.
It's okay to ask this question,even if you've been working
with them for some time.
I think, you know, It's probablymore likely than not going to be
(49:22):
appreciated that, you know, you'retaking the time to want to get to
know them, um, more or more deeply.
Um, but in terms of, okay, I'm,you know, if you're a professional,
that's from a majority culture, uh,and you want to support clients and
communities that are minority culture.
I think it's really important to audityour resources that you're already.
(49:46):
using, um, and asking yourself, youknow, is whatever I'm using, like,
you know, take one, take one ofyour resources for, I mean, it needs
your intake form, you know, is this,uh, actually geared towards, is it
inclusive of people with various,uh, varying intersectionality, right?
(50:07):
Um, and then really, reallycommitting to, like, regular and,
and ongoing Deep learning, um, youknow, we do our continued learning
or professional development.
So, you know, I would, I wouldinclude this, um, as a very
key component, um, right.
(50:29):
And I think other questions to askis, um, you know, the people that I'm
supporting, like if they're from aminority, um, culture or community,
you know, are they being exploited?
Are they, you know, Um, youknow, are they, are they
benefiting from what I'm doing?
Um, have they consented, um, to,you know, things that I'm wanting to
(50:51):
do with them or follow up for them?
Um, are they involved?
Um, you know, are they, are they leading?
You know, are they doingthings on their terms?
You know, really taking it back to them?
Because I think sometimeswe want to do it all.
And, uh, you know, again, that, thatis client centred, that's client led.
I think that's, um, somereally key reflection questions
(51:13):
and I love the prompt again.
It's never too late to startthat conversation or to
bring that up with a client.
If, if that's sort of been missingfrom people's intake process, um,
well, while we're on it, this isa little sidebar, I'll let it out.
Well, why don't we go into 10 whereyou just share some of the resources
and then we'll flip back to seven.
Yeah.
I
think I just felt it flows.
(51:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, yeah, no, that's somereally, really helpful kind of
big picture framework ideas.
And I know people love resources likespecifics, links, et cetera, et cetera.
Um, can you share some, and all ofthese, um, that Christina shares,
I'll either name or a full list.
(51:55):
I can, I'll link to themin the show notes as well.
So it's easy for you to pop overand find a bunch of people to
follow, resources to find, etc.
Um, share some of your favourites.
So who can we learn from,um, around sort of Black
neurodivergent creators out there?
Yeah, I mean, firstly, I am going toshout out to, um, my other, like, Black
(52:18):
audio HDR, um, I call them like mysisters, um, because they've, uh, they've
just helped me really like, Blossom.
And there is just, there's, there's,when you have, when you make a, have that
connection with community and especiallywhen it's through like race on top of it,
um, you know, being, being in a minorityrace, like, it's just so important.
(52:42):
So Kadija has been, youknow, a wonder, um, for me.
This year, and it's just like an endlesssupporter, um, Chennai as well, um, and
someone else that I have found reallyhelpful information, um, about the
(53:02):
Black Audie HDR experience is Alina.
Jean Lee, um, on Instagramand I think TikTok as well.
Um, I'm also going to share,um, some decolonising resources.
So, Dr Jennifer Mullenhas Decolonising Therapy.
(53:23):
Um, T Jamaica Pogue, Apologiesif I've mispronounced that.
Um, So that's DecolonisingNeuro, that one.
So Patricia is Pat Radical Therapist.
On Instagram, I'm very much, you know,finding things through Instagram.
Um, and then Myesha T.
Hill has Check Your Privilege.
(53:44):
So those are four decolonising resources.
Other resources to, uh, name thatI've found helpful, and I know
there are many else out there, butI've found helpful Autism in Black.
They're based in the US, um, you know,offering really, you know, They have
unique and valuable experiences of theautistic black experience, and they have
(54:05):
conferences throughout the year, andyeah, like online communities as well.
Autistic, they're another onlinecommunity, and they have cohorts.
It's every so often, um, for sixweeks, um, called Autism While Black.
And I participated in onerecently, uh, it was amazing.
(54:26):
And we covered so much from masking,to finding joy, to what our lives
are like privately versus publicly.
Uh, on Instagram there'sBlack and Neurodiverse.
Also there's Divine DesignAustralia, so Mahui is connecting
Black disabled women and non binaryfolks in Australia and overseas.
(54:48):
And also an in person event is comingsoon to NARM, to Melbourne, which is
super exciting, uh, yeah, so awesome.
And some books to, to alsorefer to are, um, Afrotistic.
And Autistic and Black are Experiencesof Growth, Progress and Empowerment.
And those are both, both ofthose titles are by, um, I think
(55:11):
it's Kala, Alan, Amisa, excuseme if I mistranslate the name.
But awesome resources,
start there.
Super, super helpful.
Thank you for sharing.
And I'm familiar with many and not all,so I'm also very, very excited to follow.
And, um, PS, anyone listening,please also follow Christina.
You know, she's just, youknow, getting, getting started.
(55:33):
I'm feeling that the cogsare just, they're clicking.
I don't even know.
The, the weeds aregrowing in the best way.
Yeah,
there we go.
Weeds are coming back.
Yeah.
Um, and, and you mentioned that autismin black conference, and that is
something you are going to be, um,sharing a presentation at coming up soon.
(55:55):
Yeah.
I am so thrilled about this.
I, I, you know, when I was in burnoutin April of this year, I, I attended
the online conference and I was justso inspired to be connected with
my community in a virtual space.
Uh, and I just, I made a goal for myself.
(56:16):
I said, I want to bepresenting at this conference.
So, the opportunity has come up and Isubmitted my proposal and it was accepted!
So, I'm going to be presenting atAutism and Black's inaugural Black
Girls and Women's Autism Summit.
And I'll be celebrating the uniqueexperiences of Black autistic girls
and non binary children who havespecial interests that differ from
(56:39):
what's considered culturally typical.
So this might look like skateboarding,anime, Manga, K pop, um, skiing
or snowboarding, heavy metal.
I mention these because these area bit like what I was into growing
up, and I didn't know other Blackkids that were interested in them.
So my focus would be on how wecan better understand and support
(57:01):
these special interests, especiallythrough the lens of communication.
cultural identity, and neurodiversityaffirming approaches, um, and attendees,
yeah, I hope to, they'll get out of it,is, you know, we're going to walk through
some practical strategies, foster thegenuine connections, um, embrace the
(57:23):
special interests, and create environmentswhere Black autistic girls and non
binary kids can truly thrive, and, Ijust see it all as really like, it's
shifting the perspectives and ensuringthat everyone's free to be themselves.
It's, uh, going to be amazing, important.
I'm so excited.
I registered for it, I think this morning?
(57:43):
Yes.
Really opened my eyes up.
Yeah.
So I hope I took my name
right.
First thing.
Um, but I will put the link tothat in the show notes as well,
because literally we are recordingthis on the 24th of September.
I believe you.
It was announced yesterday, wasn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I only just shared it,I think, last night.
So yeah.
And I'm actually getting,
unlike me, I'm getting the podcast episodeout, uh, either like today or tomorrow.
(58:05):
So when you're listening, all veryclose in time, very unusual for me,
but that's how we're rolling right now.
So yeah, it's, uh, it's in October.
The 19th of October is the event.
So, um, In US, so it'll be20th for anyone in Australia.
Good point.
Um, Thank you.
Uh, yes.
Time.
Time.
Um, yeah, anyway, link will bein the show notes, so go, go
(58:26):
follow and register for that.
And if it's after the fact, I'm surethese sort of things will come up.
So just go and follow a bunchof the resources that we're
sharing in the show notes.
Is there anything else,Christina, before we say goodbye
for now, until our next chat?
Yeah.
Anything else that you want to sharewith parents or professionals who
support neurodivergent childrenthat we haven't covered yet?
(58:48):
I do.
I, so I opened up this.
This podcast episode, uh, you know,talking about inner child work and,
you know, I think about oftentimes,you know, neurodivergent people,
we have, we have differences in ourbrains, like our brains are different,
um, it's, and difference is okay.
(59:11):
And so I think about, youknow, being, being little.
And being afraid of, you know, a monsterunder the bed, you know, if I dangle
my feet over the bed, like, there's amonster that's gonna just reach out and
get me and take me under the bed withhim, um, and I was thinking about that,
right, because, okay, being a child,Being fearful and like, you know, I
(59:35):
think it's actually time to make friendswith that monster under the bed, but
I know that facing fear, it's not easyand it's, it's gradual steps, just like
working through like cultural competency.
It's gradual steps.
So firstly, you know, I want to say, Isay, I want to say hello to that monster,
(59:56):
you know, wave, wave, wave to the monster.
I want to acknowledge the fear, um, youknow, I, I want to ask the monster as
well, um, you know, what is it, what isit afraid of, you know, ask if it's also
experiencing fear, and I want to ask themonster, like, what it wishes it could do
(01:00:16):
if it didn't have to stay under the bed.
You know, that's similar to askingyourself, what did you wish you could
do when you were little, that youwere told that you couldn't do, right?
Because the young ones that I support, um,you know, oftentimes they've probably been
told no, um, but just imagine, you know,what was that experience like for you?
(01:00:38):
Do we really want the same for them?
And now, you know, Imagine instead,if you were encouraged, if you were
supported to do that thing that youreally wanted to do and, and, you
know, that would've brought you joy.
So I say all of this because I, I think,you know, it's time for us to stop
being afraid of difference and, youknow, and rather like, it, it, we need
(01:01:03):
to meet that difference with curiosityand invite the difference to play.
Um, you know, let's not place anylimitations on the difference and
really just embrace our differences.
That is such a beautiful point.
Such a beautiful way to frame it.
Thank you so much.
Pleasure.
I'm actually seeing my quote of that,like, your, my, your quote of that.
(01:01:26):
Yeah!
It's really, it's beautiful.
It's, it's time, youknow, let's Let's listen.
Let's learn.
Let's connect.
Let's get excited about ourdifferences rather than other and
afraid and step away from differenceand not ignore difference either.
I think our differences are whatis so, so special, whether it's on
one dimension or many dimensions.
(01:01:47):
Yeah, that monster is, you know,probably scared, too, right?
Like, that weed, that weed, isit, is it really so unsightly?
Is it really so bad?
It's actually a dandelion.
It's beautiful.
Yeah,
it's beautiful.
It's beautiful.
Okay, so it's different, butit's, it's, you don't need to
be afraid of difference, right?
(01:02:08):
Like, let's, let's just embrace,let's embrace difference.
We don't need to change it.
I love it.
Thank you, Christina, so muchfor sharing your insights, your
perspectives, your visions, yourstory, and your vulnerability as well.
Like really, really appreciate it.
And anyone listening, I think bothof us would really welcome, you know,
any feedback, comments, questions.
(01:02:29):
Um, I'm just priming us to haveanother chat in about a year and
see where the weeds have grown to.
Yeah.
Yeah, stronger than ever.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
It's, yeah, I've been looking forwardto this so much and yeah, I had
a, I had a really wonderful time.
It's a real pleasure.
Thanks, Christina.
See ya!
(01:02:49):
See ya!
Thank you so much for sharingthis space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
(01:03:10):
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day.
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