In today's episode, I chat with the fabulous Alex Zachos from Meaningful Speech, a senior speech language pathologist with 20 years of experience. Alex specialises in Gestalt Language Processing and has revolutionised how we understand and support language development using Marge Blanc's Natural Language Acquisition framework.
Alex shares practical tips for putting these theories into action when you connect with children who are GLPs, including how to support GLPs who are AAC users.
Alex and I would both love to hear your feedback and thoughts, so feel free to email me hi@playlearnchat.com or get in touch with us on Instagram – Alex is @meaningfulspeech and I’m @play.learn.chat
Connect with Alex:
https://www.instagram.com/meaningfulspeech/
Links and resources discussed:
Podcast episode 44, with Marge Blanc - Gestalt Language Processing, Natural Language Acquisition & the State of Research - https://playlearnchat.com/podcast-44/
Free resource from Alex: Gestalt Detective GLP Handbook (2nd Edition) - Click here
More free Resources (inlcuding the Free Masterclass we talked about) from Meaningful Speech - https://www.meaningfulspeech.com/free-resources
Self-paced Courses from Meaningful Speech (Use the code ‘ADINA’ for 5% OFF)- https://www.meaningfulspeech.com/Self-Paced-Courses
Adina's course for Speech Therapists - Affirming Communication for Autistic Children - https://playlearnchat.com/acac-course/ 🥳 Doors opening soon! Get on the waitlist now to get the best offer when we're open for registrations!
Podcast Link: https://pod.link/1625478932
Website: www.playlearnchat.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/play.learn.chat
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/play.learn.chat
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:28):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:48):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:08):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
Hello and welcome, Alex.
Hi, thank you for having me.
It is such an honor and a pleasureto have Alex Zachos here on the
Exploring Neurodiversity podcast.
If you haven't come across her work,go and check it out straight away.
(01:32):
You know how exciting and wonderful itis to be sharing this space with you.
So just a little bit about Alex, sheruns Meaningful Speech and, oh, I'm
just saying Social Butterfly Inc.
Is that the name of your actual company?
It, that is the name of my brickand mortar private practice.
Here we go.
And obviously I waslike, I don't know that.
Not so surprising because youronline presence is Meaningful Speech.
(01:55):
Yes.
And so she's a founder, director,clinical owner, and senior
speech language pathologist.
And she's been a practicing SLP for20 years and she's worked extensively
with Gestalt Language Processes since2016 using Marge Blanc's Natural
Language Acquisition Framework.
And Marge has been on the podcast too,so I will link in the show notes to my
(02:17):
chat with Marge, which was an utter joy.
So Alex educates SLPs, parents,and related professionals through
her social media platforms,podcasts, blogs, and internationally
acclaimed courses on meaningful.
One of which I am midway throughand it is just so clarifying for me.
I absolutely love it.
And just your work out there has been sopivotal in bringing all the work of Dr.
(02:41):
Barry Prizant and Marge Blanc and,all their amazing work, and you
have brought it to a really, usableformat for so many parents, speech
therapists, and others, so thank youfor everything you've done so far.
Thank you.
Thank you for taking the course.
And I'm so glad that you're enjoying it.
And that's what I feel like something I'mreally good at is simplifying, heavier
(03:05):
or harder to understand information.
And I feel like I've been able to dothat with Gestalt language development.
Absolutely.
That totally comes through in your course.
Your examples are amazing.
And I have a lot of coursesand webinars out there as well.
And what I find incrediblyhard to do that you've done so
well is have the real videos.
I find it very hard to get,the, the right videos and then
(03:27):
follow up the consent and thenput it in the right place.
And just, it's veryadmirable and very practical.
So thank you for doing that.
I
have all of my clinicfamilies to thank for that.
Just allowing me to show their kids.
I do have to say though, now that
things
have gotten a bit bigger with meaningfulspeech, no one really wants to be shown.
(03:48):
But we've been able to still giveout free content on social media by
blurring faces and still kind of showingwhat this might actually look like.
Yeah.
It's such a tricky line, isn't it?
Figuring out the best way to show thingsis not always the best for the individual
if they want a little bit of anonymityor, anyway, you do a beautiful job.
Thank you.
And for those listening who are notfamiliar with this subject, we're
(04:11):
going to be talking about GLPs, whichstands for Gestalt Language Processing
or Gestalt Language Processors,depending on how we're using it.
NLA, Natural Language Acquisition,is the theoretical framework
that Marge Blanc put forward.
And I think we need to acknowledgestraight off the bat that we're
in a very weird time in like thehistory of these concepts and these
(04:32):
ideas with this idea that there isa different way or a continuum of
different ways of learning languagefrom analytic language acquisition.
It's like one word plus one word and nowI have a phrase or two words together.
That many of us may includedwere taught in linguistics.
This is how children learn language.
And Then, now, I say now, newer tome, and to many of us, is this idea
(04:54):
of Gestalt language processing, how Iwould define it, I'm going to let you.
Do you have a beautiful, like, oneliner how you personally define
Gestalt language processing?
My elevator pitch.
Well, first, I always startby saying Gestalt language
development is language development.
It is a normal, naturalway to develop language.
However, most of us werenot taught about it.
(05:18):
in either college,graduate school, or life.
So if you are not a speech languagetherapist listening to this, you might
be a parent or another professional,but no one has probably ever brought
up Gestalt language development toyou, and you've just assumed that
all kids learn language the same way.
babbling, first words, two wordcombinations, and then eventually
(05:42):
sentences in many conversations,usually by the age of five,
they sound like many adults.
So we were taught in the speech languagefield that if a kid doesn't sound like
that, or hasn't gotten to that pointby let's say three to five years of
age, then there's something wrong,then their language must be disordered.
(06:04):
But in the case of the Gestalt languageprocessor, they are not disordered.
They are usually delayed intheir language development.
And we can kind of link to some thingsthat go through all six stages of
Gestalt language development, butI'll just Say, to simplify things,
Gestalt language processors haveabout two extra stages to go through
(06:27):
before they get where their analyticpeers start, which is single words.
And so unfortunately, as SLPs, we've,often worked with clients without
Gestalt language development and tryto start with them at the word level.
And then if you're an SLPlistening to this, you might
say, yes, that's what I've done.
(06:48):
I've tried to give kids more words.
Then we don't often see successwith those kids because we are
completely skipping the stages ofecholalia and mitigated echolalia.
Thank you for that.
It's much more coherent thanmy explanation was about to
be, so I appreciate that.
And just in terms of, echolalia as well...
(07:08):
there are two types, immediateecholalia and delayed echolalia.
So I'll say they both serve apurpose and often GLPs use both.
But when we talk about Gestaltlanguage development, the first
stage is delayed echolalia.
So immediate echolalia, while again,it does serve a purpose, it's not
part of Gestalt language development.
(07:29):
And I think this is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I thinkthis is where your meaningful
speech name has come from.
This, that underpins the whole philosophy,like the, the one thing, the biggest
picture message is, I was certainly taughtthis in university and I'm trying to
think in my early career years, whetherI, I said this to families, this idea
that echolalia is, it's just echolalia.
(07:51):
It's just repeating sounds,ignore it doesn't mean anything.
What do you say to that?
Yes, I mean, I think you're a lot youngerthan I am, but that is what I was taught
to say as well many, many years ago, andit's, it was disappointing to me when
I started Meaningful Speech and startedtalking to new grads, and they said to me,
(08:12):
well, that's what we're still being told.
So yes, that's whereMeaningful Speech came from.
Actually, one of my former interns helpedme come up with the name because I wanted.
Something that conveyed that and likemeaningful is such a great word, right?
Because echolalia is meaningful.
And I always say echolalia communicates,often it is communicating to us.
(08:36):
Sometimes it's communicating somethingabout the person's body or their likes or
dislikes or their regulation, but it is.
communicating something and to lookat it like it's meaningless and
ignore it or redirect it is justgoing to cause frustration for the
echolalic person and the professional.
And this is where it all links backto neurodiversity affirming practice
(08:59):
and, just being a person who seesyour clients for who they are.
I'm a hundred percent on board.
I'm sitting here nodding away because.
If we don't listen and by listen Imean notice and pay attention to the
child in front of us and believe them.
What are we doing?
Like, we just have to, we have totrust that individuals know themselves
and, and their families know them.
(09:19):
And anyway, we could go on anotherrant, but let's try to keep on track.
Basically, I think your name is brilliant.
I think, what you communicate isjust so, so useful and so practical.
So.
Like I was saying, this is a bit ofa weird time in the world of speech
pathology and what is Gestalt languageprocessing and is it a real thing?
We're getting a lot of articles andpresentations out there and there's just
(09:42):
a body of work and a bunch of people wholove to literally say that they're just
not going to listen to autistic people.
They're not going to listen to peoplewith lived experience, people who
are Gestalt language processorsor who claim to be in their words.
They, they don't believe themThere's a lot of people basically
saying this isn't a valid construct.
So what I wanted to do now, in thechat I had with Marge Blanc, we
(10:03):
went quite deep into the sort ofhistory and and this aspect of it.
What's going on with people kindof putting their hand up and
saying, no, no, no, it's not valid.
I was hoping that our chat wouldbe very, Hopeful, positive,
practical, focused, mostly.
So I'm hoping that you and I can talkabout what can we do, establishing
this idea that GLPs exist.
I mean, I, for example, identifyas one, it's a concept that
(10:25):
makes just so much sense.
It resonates.
It rings true for me, for thekids I've supported for, anyway.
Let's say GLPs exist.
Most of our chat, we're goingto focus on what can we do?
How can we support them?
But I think we have to acknowledgethere is this wave of people
denying the validity or questioningthe validity of this concept.
So maybe we could just spend a coupleof minutes just chatting about like,
(10:46):
what would you suggest to the speechtherapists who You might get questions
from colleagues, bosses, from parentswho say, Oh, but I heard that this
Gestalt language processing isn'treal or it's not evidence based.
Is there anything you want to share therethat you would support people to say?
Absolutely.
So years ago I created a post that'sactually pinned to my Instagram
(11:09):
page, basically about how to addressnaysayers or people that have criticism
or don't believe that it's real.
And I kind of give theexact language in that post.
But it's kind of funny becauseback when I wrote it, I don't feel
like there were a lot of naysayers.
And now I just feel like it's so relevant,which is why it's pinned because things
(11:33):
have definitely changed and shifted a bit.
And I think What I learned overtime in educating people, is there
seem to be a couple distinct groups.
So, there's a group of SLPs andprofessionals that will say to
me, Well, this is intuitive.
I've been doing this all along.
I just didn't know what to call it.
Or, also part of that group, they'llsay to me, Well, I knew that doing
(11:57):
compliance based things were, not a goodfit, but I didn't know what else to do.
Thank you for introducingme to something else.
And then the second group is the groupthat I just feel is really married to
behaviorist or compliance based technique.
And Anything else that issort of introduced in there is
(12:20):
immediately just squashed down.
Like this just does not fitwith what we know and what we
teach and what we practice.
And I feel like that group, thelatter group has become more
vocal in the more recent years.
and my advice for SLPs is to bevery honest with your clients.
(12:41):
I have a very small privatepractice, but when clients come to
us, I'm always honest with them.
I try to meet them wherethey're at in their journey.
And I will just say to them, I might notbe like other SLPs that you've met before.
I have a child led approach.
This is what that means.
This is how I'm going to lookat language with your child.
And I kind of lay it all out there.
(13:03):
SLPs that have reachedout to myself, my team.
Oftentimes, we'll say, well, thisparent got upset with me, or they
thought I was doing this, or they askedfor homework, or they're wondering
why I'm not sending worksheets.
And then most of the time, ifwe're like, hey, did you actually
have a conversation with them?
It's like nine out of 10 timesthey haven't, they just like
(13:24):
launched into the session or theevaluation or whatever it might be.
So I think.
Just as scary as it is having thatpreliminary conversation so the family
knows where you stand You kind of layout there what type of therapist you are
and see whether you're a good match forthem And they're a good match for you.
(13:44):
I Think that that is gonna lay a reallygreat foundation for moving forward
and there have been families Even withme, even at this point where, , you
would think that they would understandthat I'm very undeaffirming and child
led, but there have been familiesthat have said, well, I want this,
and I think my child needs to do this.
(14:04):
And I'll say, well, that's nothow we're going to do things here.
And that might not be the right match.
That's not where they'reat on their journey.
Isn't that interesting?
And, you're.
Profile out there is so well known,but it sounds like some people come in
still not quite getting it and I mm-hmmI tell this to therapists all the time.
That, well, anyone, anyone who hasa business, it's like, you at every
(14:26):
stage have to educate people aboutyour approach, , quite explicitly.
Yes.
And I, I'm so glad that you givethat advice, because I don't
think enough of us do that.
And then the family, the biggestcomplaint I get is the family
says all we're doing is playing.
Like, do they understand whatchild lead is and what your
(14:47):
goals with this child are?
You need to have a conversation.
And I think part of this is like asystemic problem because in a lot of
workplaces, we don't build that time in.
To have a family meeting orto actually talk to them, the
way that things are usuallystructured, at least here in the U.
S., in some of these bigger clinicsand hospital settings and schools as
(15:10):
well, it's get in, do the evaluation,schedule all the therapy sessions.
So there isn't that let's have aparent meeting and sit down and
talk about our goals in schools.
We do have IEPs, obviously, andthat would be a really great time
to bring this up at the IEP meeting.
But I don't often seethat in other workplaces.
And I think when it comes to privateservices, there's obviously a
(15:32):
lot more flexibility, especiallyif you're the business owner.
Like if it's your own practice, you getto choose how you run your whole thing.
How do you let people knowthe information at what stage?
How does the first session go?
But I think even for therapistswho work within any other
system, there's still chance.
Whatever the service delivery model,I think there's still chance and
(15:52):
necessity to let all the stakeholdersknow, especially family, but if
you're in schools, it's going to bethe teachers, the leadership as well.
Just everyone needs to know the approach.
How else can you be workingto support a child who lives
in these other environments?
And this is a good time to kind of bringup, I had a consultation on Tuesday with.
A speech pathologist.
(16:13):
It was not her own private practice.
She worked at a medium sized clinic,and she said, I'm meeting with you
because I've taken your course.
Two other speech therapistshere have taken your course.
We want to do what you're saying,but These kids are spending 40 hours
a week in applied behavior analysis,or the school is structured in a
(16:36):
way where they are basically doingcompliance based things all day long.
And so they're saying, we arenot seeing the kind of progress
that we've heard you talk about.
And I said, you know why, right?
And they said, yes!
So what do we do about it?
I think it was a really interestingconversation because first I told
the SLP, give yourself grace.
(16:58):
You're the only one in this child'slife right now trying to do this.
Nobody else.
And secondly, I said, we can'tchange a whole system overnight.
So one of the, I guess, piece of adviceI want to give now, since we brought this
up is , if a family chooses or someoneelse chooses to do other services that
(17:19):
don't align with NLA and child led.
You have to at least show the otherpeople in the family like what you're
doing and let them sort of either cometo you or draw their own conclusions
and the best way I've been able to dothat is showing my data because a lot
of these places are very data driven.
(17:42):
And so I teach this in my course.
I have no affiliation with Google Docs,but I just like using Google Docs.
And so I will use itto keep a language log.
And if family and everyone elsegives me permission, I share it
with everyone on the child team.
And that is my data.
Our language samples are our data.
(18:02):
And so when they see thelanguage is changing over time.
And they see my data at every session.
They start to get curious.
And if and when I can, I willalso attach or submit videos.
And I think the really interestingthing about people doing compliance
based services is a lot of timesthey don't realize they're always
(18:23):
getting the same type of languagebecause they're doing certain
activities to elicit that language.
And a lot of times they're very surprisedat how much spontaneous language I get.
Or I've heard things thatthey've never heard in their,
quote, unquote activities.
And a lot of times that willbe the turning point for them.
(18:44):
Well, how did you get that?
And how do I get that?
So, I wanted to just talk aboutthat a little bit, because we can't
change everything going on in achild's life, but we have the power
to showcase what we're doing and thatmight slowly start to change things.
I love that outlook.
So it's not about getting into a bleakmindset thinking, Oh, they, they're
(19:05):
doing this other therapy that I don'tagree with, or, , that other therapist
isn't having conversations with me.
It's actually going, well, I canjust try, I can try and speak
their language, meaning you're,you're speaking the language of.
Sharing data.
I think there's another effectwhich you touched on, but I want
to call out, which is you arethis person in the child's life.
One of the only, if not the onlyperson who is slowing down to see that
(19:28):
child, to be at that child's level,to meet them where they are, to enjoy
the things they enjoy in their way.
And that, that relationshipcan be so, so strong.
And yes.
I think even if we're there, an hour aweek or less, I don't think anyone should
diminish the power of the relationshipyou individually as a therapist can
build with a child when you really Seethem and do a lot of the strategies
(19:53):
that I think you might share with us.
That I teach and share a lot.
I, I believe I, I will say I'vehad a little squeeze at your
notes and I'm like, yes, yes, yes.
Like not, not that it was a test.
Just in terms of, yay, we teachso many of the same ideas.
like in my course for speechtherapists, I've got sections on
some of this and I'd love to hear it.
What you say to these therapiststhat you're coaching and supporting,
(20:16):
for example, you're seeing thesechanges in kids and the other people
supporting these kids are saying, Oh,I didn't know they could say that.
Like, what is it that you do?
What are these key strategies and ideasthat other therapists can take on as they
listen to this podcast and go, ah, I can.
Either give myself credit, Ido this really, really well, or
that's something I'm going to learnabout more or try to do more of.
(20:38):
What are some of these strategies, Alex?
Yes.
So let's get into that.
I think you said in my bio that I started.
Shifting things in 2016 when I gota hold of Marge's book and I did
cover to cover in a week and calledher, and, the rest is history.
She started mentoring me and all of that.
(20:58):
But I was part of the group of SLPswhere I think I had stuffed down my
intuition and just sort of listenedto the experts around me and I was.
Very much deep into compliance basedpractices, and I was not seeing, results
and I was feeling very frustrated.
(21:19):
And so I'm going to walk you throughgradually the changes I made because
this doesn't happen overnight.
And I'm actually in the processof re recording a couple modules
in my course because I hadoriginally recorded it in late 2021.
And I feel like the way I explain thingshas changed so much that I want to go
(21:40):
back in there and put this in there.
And this is actually something I'mgoing to include, but the first major
change that I made was realizing thatI needed to focus on connection and We
say connection over compliance now, butconnection, trust and the relationship
because I was following that model.
(22:01):
I talked about earlier where I didthe evaluation and then went into
all the therapy sessions and Ididn't get to know what the child
liked to play with at home or.
I have so many kids thatdon't even quote unquote play.
So just finding out whattheir special interests are.
I have a little boy I'm working with rightnow who's really into washing machines.
(22:24):
Or he'll load and unload thedishwasher all the time, which
is awesome for his family.
Figuring out ways to bringthat into the therapy room.
And old me?
would not have done any of that becauseI had this like agenda and I was also
trained under the medical model ofdisability, which is fix this child.
(22:46):
That was my training.
And so I thought, okay, weneed to get to functional play.
We need to stop lining things up.
We need to get in there and gethim requesting and commenting.
And now my number one goal in theevaluation and throughout my sessions
is I want this child to trust me.
(23:06):
I want to form a goodrelationship with them.
I want to get connected becausethat's the foundation of everything.
Okay, so how do you do that?
You're going to do thatthrough child led play.
And what does that mean?
That means I'm letting thechild lead the session.
So I'm not coming in there with alaminated strip and a plan, like, Hey,
(23:28):
we're going to work on these sentencestrips, or we're doing these cards today.
Or a lot of therapists will callthemselves play based, which is not
child led, because just because Ihave three or four toys in there, if
I'm in there with this agenda, thisis how we're going to engage with
these toys, that's not child led.
So I am really getting to know the childand the family as much as I can, figuring
(23:53):
out what their special interests are.
And so I usually tell peoplemy three, two, one rule.
So I have Three toys or objectsin available in the room three ish
and two are familiar to the child.
So I know they love them.
So I'm going to talk aboutone of my clients now.
He loves letters.
So there's always somekind of letter activity.
(24:15):
And then he also loves bubbles.
So I also have something Either justa typical way to blow bubbles or I
might have a bubble machine or I dida reel once about like 10 different
ways you could do bubble things.
So I have something in there with that.
Those are the two familiar.
And then the third is something new ish.
(24:37):
So it doesn't have to be somethingI ran and bought off the internet.
Sometimes I've brought in like an emptycardboard box, but something that is.
New to our sessions.
New to the child, maybe somewhat fits withtheir special interest, and if they want
to choose to engage with it, that's fine.
If not, that's fine around the holidays.
(24:59):
I'll usually bring in something holidayish, like a pumpkin around Halloween.
They can fill it with things ornot, but that newish thing gives
us like new language opportunities.
So the other mistake sometimes peoplemake when they go into doing child led
is they fall into the old way of thinkingwhere people have taught us that autistic
(25:22):
or neurodivergent kids need repetition.
So it's like, Oh, okay.
Every single time we'regoing to do the cars.
And then we're going to do the track, andthen we're going to read the book, and
then we're going to sing the goodbye song.
And every single time it's like this.
And then we're wondering why we'renot getting new or different language.
Why we're not gettingspontaneous language.
(25:43):
Or why the child perhaps hasa three alarm meltdown when
one day I don't do that book.
And actually, Rachel Dorsey has agreat module about that in my course.
I don't know if you've gotten to it yet,Adina, but she talks about what to do
if you've made the mistake of makingall of your sessions the same, the
same, the same, and then the child hasa meltdown when you try to change them.
(26:05):
The thing that I just, that crossedmy mind right now that there's such a
large percentage of autistic people,like myself, who are also ADHDers,
like it's, we don't have an exactnumber, but it's very large crossover.
And I'm thinking, it's alwaysa, an interplay in my life to
find the balance between routine.
Yeah.
And novelty.
And these kids are the same, whetheror not their ADHD is as well.
(26:26):
Yeah, there's still a balance.
And I think everyone's going tobenefit from somewhere on this
continuum between same ish orpredictable ish and familiar ish.
And like you said, introducingsomething that's new, different.
Can I ask how, how you actuallypresent that new thing?
Or like, do you care whether the childdoes anything with the new activity?
(26:48):
We don't care.
Usually it's not like I come in like,it's more like it's available in the room.
And then the three, two, onepart I forgot to add on is I say
three, two, one plus room to move.
And so I.
I know I'm lucky, I'm privileged,but I've got a gym space.
And so, I know my movers and shakersneed to be seen in the gym space.
(27:12):
I will walk SLPs through how to domovement in smaller spaces, like I'll talk
about pop up tunnels, foldable balancebeams, scooter board, things like that.
But, for a lot of our kids thatare not quite into toy play
yet, they want to be moving.
And that's where we're going to be gettinga lot of that spontaneous language.
Or swinging, I mean ithelps so many kids regulate.
(27:34):
So there's that piece as well.
I mean, even kids that are in stagesfour, five and six and they're doing
pretend play and they're havingconversations, they still need room to
move and they want to regulate as well.
So, but I think it's super importantfor our early stage kids,, and our
kids that are not into toy play yet.
So I started doing those things and that'sthe foundation of the changes that I made.
(27:59):
And then when it came to naturallanguage acquisition, The number
one thing that I tell everyone todo is acknowledge all echolalia.
I wasn't doing thisbefore, believe it or not.
I was telling kids things like nomovie talk or look, we're doing this.
I was constantly redirectingor trying to stop it.
(28:19):
I think I really knew inside that it waswrong, but I honestly had no other tools.
And I remember I had gotten to apoint of massive frustration and I
reached out to so many SLPs around me,like, what are you doing about this?
What are you doing about this?
And they were all tellingme the same thing.
Oh, well, we were taught toredirect it and ignore it.
(28:41):
And I actually, the way I found Marge'sbook is I had posted in a Facebook
group for private practitioners andI remember it was like crickets.
Nobody was like answering me.
And then one day I saw a notificationand an SLB in Idaho said, Oh,
have you heard of this book?
And I have shared this so many timesin March and I laugh about it, but I
(29:03):
clicked on the link and I'm like, Oh,like, is this from like the 1970s?
Cause she picked orangeand brown for her cover.
And I'm like, oh, that's whyI haven't heard of this book.
And then I looked at it andrealized it was published in 2012.
And I'm like, oh, it'slike a fairly new book.
No, I've never heard of it.
(29:23):
And I bought it and, that'show everything started for me.
Nobody knew what to do.
And I live in, like, justoutside of the third largest
city in the United States, okay?
I'm like, how does no one know what to do?
It's so wild and amazing to be able topinpoint these one moments, these, it's
a real sliding doors moments in yourcareer, but how that impact has spread
(29:47):
to so many professionals and thereforeto so many kids and families they
support is so, so cool to trace it back.
And.
It's phenomenal.
Like we are somewhere in themiddle of this huge, huge changing
tide, which I think is mostlyexciting, sometimes daunting.
I don't know about you.
That's how I feel.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah., I know this questionhas gone on forever.
(30:09):
I'm actually looking at like,have I shared all the strategies?
Yeah, I was going to say, we got toreally, the, the baseline was that
sort of making connection with, withkids, building that relationship.
And then you talked about acknowledgingecholalia kind of as the first
strategy on top of that, I guess.
What, what are the other main.
Preparation,
the other thing is, using moredeclarative language, which
(30:33):
is narrating and commenting.
And less questioning and prompting.
I mean, I would love it if people justeliminated questioning and prompting for
early stage GLPs, but in the beginning,I'm like, let's just do it less.
And then the final one is more silence.
So practicing silence and beingcomfortable with silence in our session.
(30:56):
I talk a lot about thisin my free masterclass.
You can probably link it in the shownotes and I'm, I'm probably going to
talk about it later as a resource or atool but a lot of people have said that
that was really eye opening to them.
I often encourage people to videotapethemselves and watch it back if they can.
And so many people realize howmuch they're talking in session.
(31:19):
Again, I think we're trained to justgo in there and talk, talk, talk, talk,
talk, and that's what's going to elicitlanguage from a child, but in Marge is
the original one that taught me this.
I think she said somethingalong the lines of silence.
Brings about more spontaneouslanguage and so many things.
I think that she initiallywas teaching me in 2016 2017.
(31:43):
I was kind of like, really?
Because I had never seen it in action.
But then when I actually started doing it.
I was blown away.
So that's another thing that Ithink is interesting with some of
the naysayers and the criticism.
I just want to say, go spenda day and sit in sessions with
Gestalt language processors.
(32:03):
Like actually watch this happenand realize that it's real.
Because if you haven't, I can see how youwould kind of question it if you had been
spending so many years doing the opposite.
Yeah, that's crucial.
And I think that's where I getall excited, frustrated about
the ivory tower of academia.
Folks who can be so disconnected fromthe people that they're talking about.
(32:27):
But that's, that is aconversation for another day.
, so we're on video now, Alex and I,and, but everyone's going to get
the audio, not the video of us.
But I was like clapping along whenyou're talking about the silence.
I teach the exact same thing in, in someof my, webinars and courses as well.
And how uncomfortable that can feel.
As a professional, some of thecomments, I'm sure you hear it as well.
(32:48):
Some of the comments that people sayabout this is, Oh, but they're gonna,
they're being the parents or, the otheradults in the room, they're going to
expect me to be saying something like,you think that you have to perform as a
therapist all the time, but That's not it.
It's like the relationship, thatconnection with the kid is actually
your first job and not the performingof interaction but the real true deep
(33:09):
interaction which for many, and I knownot all Gestalt language processors
are autistic but many are and for manyautistic people like me, certainly.
A nice way of connecting andinteracting is to be near someone
and to have that kind of presence andthat parallel play, whatever that can
look like as a grown up or, a grownup and child dynamic either way.
(33:31):
For many of the kids that I supportas well, it's that same thing as,
some of the best ways we can connectwith them is not by talking at them.
Labeling everything they do oralways interjecting into their play.
It's just, just being present andhonoring, they may have quite limited
social capacity, sensory systems thatneed not to hear talking all the time.
There's so many great reasonsthat silence is important.
(33:54):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So thank you for sharing those.
And at the end, I'll get you toshare, what some of the next steps
are that people can take to keeplearning with you, but I think
this is going to help many people.
Like I wanted to get some quick wins.
I want people to listen and go, ah, okay,yeah, I can do some of that a bit more
or learn a little bit more about that.
Tools.
Cheat sheets, helpful things.
(34:15):
What is helpful when somebody is workingwith the Gestalt language processor
and they think that this child isusing Gestalt and they think, I really
want to understand what that childmight be meaning with that Gestalt.
I want to understand how I can connectwith them further on that topic.
But.
I don't know, I don't know all thethings that they're watching on YouTube.
I don't know all the showsthat they're watching.
I don't know their favorite.
(34:35):
, I can't be across everything.
What are some of your favoritetools that make it easier for
professionals to kind of get intothe child's world or get some clues?
Yeah, we actually just created ahandout about this , Katie Arnold did.
She wrote Argus Shot Language ProcessingHandbook and , just updated it.
So if you are out there and own it,the second edition is available now.
(34:58):
All our updates are free.
and called Gestalt, bea Gestalt detective.
And so I'm going to giveit to your audience too.
We, sent it out, so I will sendit to you to share with them.
And we have all the websiteson there where you can look
up Gestalts, like get yarn.
io, SubZen, PopMystic, PlayPhrase,because yeah, you're right.
(35:21):
You can't know every episode of Bluey, butyou go in there, you type something in,
you realize where it comes from and, thatreally, really helps you understand maybe
why that child is using it as a gestalt.
I remember back to Bluey that one of myclients found a balloon in one of the
gyms, so like an OT must have blown itup with another client, and she walked
(35:45):
right up to it and said, keepy uppy.
And at the time, my braindidn't go to Bluey, did not, I
had no idea what was going on.
But if you're a Bluey fan, they play agame with the balloon called Keep uppy.
And I'm just going to jump inwith the full gestalt that goes
through my head, which is at thebeginning of the song, because we
(36:07):
listen to the album . in the car.
And there's mum going,I've got a game for you.
And the kids go, is it keepy uppy?
It's keepy uppy.
And so I, we do thisat home with my family.
I say to my daughter,I've got a game for you.
And it's not always keepy uppy.
And that's the joke.
We subvert the gestalt.
It's mitigated, right?
So I love these sites and so we havethem in a handy dandy handout that you
(36:31):
can kind of check out other resources.
I say start with all the free stuff first,because we do have, paid resources where
you can get very deep into our courses,but for free, check out our master class.
We have a general oneand one for AAC and GLP.
Almost 40, 000 have watched both, whichis incredible to me, but I just want to
(36:53):
keep spreading that around because it'sfor parents, staff, educators, anyone.
I have joked around about sharingit with bus drivers because it's
just a really good introduction foranyone who has a GLP in their life.
Tons of free information on Marge'sCommunication Development Center website.
(37:14):
We have our weekly blog andall the podcasts I've been
on, this one will be included.
and our blog comes out everyThursday and that's really
shareable, and easy for parents.
And then of course our social media posts.
I know social media has turnedinto lots of different things.
We are site.
I feel like it's just, our page is veryall educational, all about educating.
(37:39):
So you're not going to go on thereand see what I ate for breakfast.
, I actually tried that when I first startedthe Instagram because everyone's like, Oh,
everyone needs to know you and trust you.
I'm like, nobody really needs toknow, what I'm doing right now.
And so our, our page isstrictly just to educate you.
That's such an amazing list of resources.
(38:01):
I personally am interested in what youhad for breakfast, lunch, and dinner,
because I know you were recordinglate in your day, but that's okay.
I am going to put links tothe things that you shared.
They'll be in the show notes.
And to that handout, you'revery generously sharing.
And I love that it's called Gestaltdetective, because that's exactly
what I was thinking, that detectiveworks so beautifully named again.
And there's something you were mentioning,I know it's your newer courses, the
(38:22):
AAC for Gestalt language processes.
I would love to hear anything, like anybig key ideas that you want to share
about how it's different using AAC, andfor those who don't know the acronym,
it's augmentative and alternativecommunication, which refers to anything
that's not speech, , technically,but I think often in the, the broader
world, people think about it as sort ofthe iPad that talks for you, I guess,
(38:46):
to like put it in layperson's terms.
Yeah.
So I mean, does it, does yourcourse cover specifically like
high tech or not necessarily?
And anything that you wanted toshare about different strategies
using or introducing AAC with Gestaltlanguage processors as opposed
to analytic language processes?
Yes.
So Laura Hayes is a SLP in AAC.
(39:12):
I'm in there a little bit in thebeginning, but Laura does go through
low tech and high tech options.
She'll talk about speechgenerating devices.
I mean, we favor thosebecause they're robust.
The child can grow with them, butwe know that, low tech can be great
when there aren't other options.
We actually have, great low tech bookthat you can download that comes with the
(39:34):
course but, the bonus modules are goingto cover all the most popular apps and
show you how to program them for GLPs.
So here are a couple just quick tips.
The reason that this whole courseexists is because AAC both low tech
and high tech was basically createdfor analytic language processors,
and a lot of the courses that areout there are constantly pushing like
(39:59):
core and fringe vocabulary and words,words, words, and we know that our G.
L.
P.
S.
Are not quite ready for thatuntil they're in stage three.
So, the tip is do not erase anythingbecause it needs to be there.
We want it to grow with the child.
So I think that was a bigthing people were doing at
(40:21):
the beginning, erasing things.
So we say do not erase,we're going to add.
So I like to add things in tosupport stages one and two.
I have a little reel I shared during AACAwareness Month last year, where I just
walk people through exactly how to programa Gestalt into, I think it's TD SNAP.
(40:43):
But really it can be for any device.
I am just quickly going to tellyou that I like to have the whole
Gestalt on one button and then Ilike to put in language the child
already has because that is buy in.
They love to go on thereand see their own language.
And so even if they are communicatingsome of that with mouth words, it's
(41:06):
still going to be on their AAC device.
And then I also like to put inwhat I call potential gestalt.
So we haven't gotteninto all of this today.
Adina, you might've seen it in mysecond module, but I go through
all the communicative functionscategories like share joy, transitions,
health, protest, self advocacy.
(41:27):
So I'm going to go through all of those.
Within my mind with this child and pickwhat I call some potential gestalt.
So let's say I have a child thatdoesn't know how to self advocate,
isn't protesting, none of that.
So, parents and I decide that we wouldlove to hear something like don't touch
that or stop or even just not now.
(41:49):
And so we might put someof those on the device.
as potential gestalt.
Maybe the child chooses to communicatewith them or not, they are available.
So it's a mix of what's alreadythere and potential gestalts.
And what's great is a lotof our GLPs are musical.
So if they are singing likea song from Daniel Tiger.
(42:12):
I can go and put the whole song rightthere on the button or in most of
these devices, not all of them, butI can't get into the details about
that now, but having that feature isexcellent because then they're hearing
it the exact same way that it came in.
That is such a cool idea andit's something I want to do
for myself, like a simple.
(42:33):
way of accessing my favorite gestaltsto hear them because they're so joyful
and then to say them if I feel like it.
So cool.
I want to play more.
I need to get into that.
Hmm.
Thank you.
Such cool tips.
I'm like, how can I use this as an adult?
That's a whole separate section.
We have so many like sidebars we couldhave taken we've stayed very on topic.
I'm quite proud of us.
So there's so many ways tokeep learning from Alex.
(42:54):
And one of them, if you do feel likegetting into any of her courses,
obviously there's the free masterclassesand resources in the show notes.
Alex has generously shared acode with the audience, which is
Adina, top secret, it's my name.
And if you get any of her paid offersand use that, you will get 5% off.
And there's just somany amazing resources.
(43:15):
Like I said, I'm in the middle of yourmeaningful speech course, and I thought
I knew a lot about this stuff, but notwith this level of specificity or depth.
So I appreciate it so, so much.
Is there anything else that we're missing?
Like what haven't we touched on?
Is there anything that you feelwe really want to share with
parents and professionals whosupport neurodivergent children?
Oh like to share, just, just get started.
(43:39):
That is my piece of advice for everyone.
Start small, start with one child orstudent, write down what they say and
start to practice scoring using thenatural language acquisition framework.
If this is very new to you, and you'rea speech language pathologist listening
to this, I think it would be verydifficult to like, walk in and change what
(44:01):
you're doing with your entire caseload.
But if you just start really smalland target, like I said, one child
or student, that is what I did.
And then from there, as your knowledgegrows and you feel more confident,
you can spread it out to other people.
But I think I just don't wantpeople to feel like, Oh, I, I don't
(44:24):
know how to do this with everyone.
And it feels too dauntingand too difficult.
So just start small.
I love that.
It's achievable.
It's realistic.
Thank you so much for sharing yourinsights, your, just everything
that you've shared, not just inthis bubble here, but in your whole
career and what you do put out there.
It's so important.
(44:46):
And, I feel like.
Oh, I don't want to frame it in termsof battle, but if we were going into
battle, we're on the same team andI love that, but there's no battle,
we're just here to support the kids.
Definitely.
Thank you, Alex, and Ihope we'll speak again.
Thank you for having me.
You're welcome.
See ya!
Thank you so much for sharingthis space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
(45:08):
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day!
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:28):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:48):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:08):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
Hello and welcome, Alex.
Hi, thank you for having me.
It is such an honor and a pleasureto have Alex Zachos here on the
Exploring Neurodiversity podcast.
If you haven't come across her work,go and check it out straight away.
(01:32):
You know how exciting and wonderful itis to be sharing this space with you.
So just a little bit about Alex, sheruns Meaningful Speech and, oh, I'm
just saying Social Butterfly Inc.
Is that the name of your actual company?
It, that is the name of my brickand mortar private practice.
Here we go.
And obviously I waslike, I don't know that.
Not so surprising because youronline presence is Meaningful Speech.
(01:55):
Yes.
And so she's a founder, director,clinical owner, and senior
speech language pathologist.
And she's been a practicing SLP for20 years and she's worked extensively
with Gestalt Language Processes since2016 using Marge Blanc's Natural
Language Acquisition Framework.
And Marge has been on the podcast too,so I will link in the show notes to my
(02:17):
chat with Marge, which was an utter joy.
So Alex educates SLPs, parents,and related professionals through
her social media platforms,podcasts, blogs, and internationally
acclaimed courses on meaningful.
One of which I am midway throughand it is just so clarifying for me.
I absolutely love it.
And just your work out there has been sopivotal in bringing all the work of Dr.
(02:41):
Barry Prizant and Marge Blanc and,all their amazing work, and you
have brought it to a really, usableformat for so many parents, speech
therapists, and others, so thank youfor everything you've done so far.
Thank you.
Thank you for taking the course.
And I'm so glad that you're enjoying it.
And that's what I feel like something I'mreally good at is simplifying, heavier
(03:05):
or harder to understand information.
And I feel like I've been able to dothat with Gestalt language development.
Absolutely.
That totally comes through in your course.
Your examples are amazing.
And I have a lot of coursesand webinars out there as well.
And what I find incrediblyhard to do that you've done so
well is have the real videos.
I find it very hard to get,the, the right videos and then
(03:27):
follow up the consent and thenput it in the right place.
And just, it's veryadmirable and very practical.
So thank you for doing that.
I
have all of my clinicfamilies to thank for that.
Just allowing me to show their kids.
I do have to say though, now that
things
have gotten a bit bigger with meaningfulspeech, no one really wants to be shown.
(03:48):
But we've been able to still giveout free content on social media by
blurring faces and still kind of showingwhat this might actually look like.
Yeah.
It's such a tricky line, isn't it?
Figuring out the best way to show thingsis not always the best for the individual
if they want a little bit of anonymityor, anyway, you do a beautiful job.
Thank you.
And for those listening who are notfamiliar with this subject, we're
(04:11):
going to be talking about GLPs, whichstands for Gestalt Language Processing
or Gestalt Language Processors,depending on how we're using it.
NLA, Natural Language Acquisition,is the theoretical framework
that Marge Blanc put forward.
And I think we need to acknowledgestraight off the bat that we're
in a very weird time in like thehistory of these concepts and these
(04:32):
ideas with this idea that there isa different way or a continuum of
different ways of learning languagefrom analytic language acquisition.
It's like one word plus one word and nowI have a phrase or two words together.
That many of us may includedwere taught in linguistics.
This is how children learn language.
And Then, now, I say now, newer tome, and to many of us, is this idea
(04:54):
of Gestalt language processing, how Iwould define it, I'm going to let you.
Do you have a beautiful, like, oneliner how you personally define
Gestalt language processing?
My elevator pitch.
Well, first, I always startby saying Gestalt language
development is language development.
It is a normal, naturalway to develop language.
However, most of us werenot taught about it.
(05:18):
in either college,graduate school, or life.
So if you are not a speech languagetherapist listening to this, you might
be a parent or another professional,but no one has probably ever brought
up Gestalt language development toyou, and you've just assumed that
all kids learn language the same way.
babbling, first words, two wordcombinations, and then eventually
(05:42):
sentences in many conversations,usually by the age of five,
they sound like many adults.
So we were taught in the speech languagefield that if a kid doesn't sound like
that, or hasn't gotten to that pointby let's say three to five years of
age, then there's something wrong,then their language must be disordered.
(06:04):
But in the case of the Gestalt languageprocessor, they are not disordered.
They are usually delayed intheir language development.
And we can kind of link to some thingsthat go through all six stages of
Gestalt language development, butI'll just Say, to simplify things,
Gestalt language processors haveabout two extra stages to go through
(06:27):
before they get where their analyticpeers start, which is single words.
And so unfortunately, as SLPs, we've,often worked with clients without
Gestalt language development and tryto start with them at the word level.
And then if you're an SLPlistening to this, you might
say, yes, that's what I've done.
(06:48):
I've tried to give kids more words.
Then we don't often see successwith those kids because we are
completely skipping the stages ofecholalia and mitigated echolalia.
Thank you for that.
It's much more coherent thanmy explanation was about to
be, so I appreciate that.
And just in terms of, echolalia as well...
(07:08):
there are two types, immediateecholalia and delayed echolalia.
So I'll say they both serve apurpose and often GLPs use both.
But when we talk about Gestaltlanguage development, the first
stage is delayed echolalia.
So immediate echolalia, while again,it does serve a purpose, it's not
part of Gestalt language development.
(07:29):
And I think this is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I thinkthis is where your meaningful
speech name has come from.
This, that underpins the whole philosophy,like the, the one thing, the biggest
picture message is, I was certainly taughtthis in university and I'm trying to
think in my early career years, whetherI, I said this to families, this idea
that echolalia is, it's just echolalia.
(07:51):
It's just repeating sounds,ignore it doesn't mean anything.
What do you say to that?
Yes, I mean, I think you're a lot youngerthan I am, but that is what I was taught
to say as well many, many years ago, andit's, it was disappointing to me when
I started Meaningful Speech and startedtalking to new grads, and they said to me,
(08:12):
well, that's what we're still being told.
So yes, that's whereMeaningful Speech came from.
Actually, one of my former interns helpedme come up with the name because I wanted.
Something that conveyed that and likemeaningful is such a great word, right?
Because echolalia is meaningful.
And I always say echolalia communicates,often it is communicating to us.
(08:36):
Sometimes it's communicating somethingabout the person's body or their likes or
dislikes or their regulation, but it is.
communicating something and to lookat it like it's meaningless and
ignore it or redirect it is justgoing to cause frustration for the
echolalic person and the professional.
And this is where it all links backto neurodiversity affirming practice
(08:59):
and, just being a person who seesyour clients for who they are.
I'm a hundred percent on board.
I'm sitting here nodding away because.
If we don't listen and by listen Imean notice and pay attention to the
child in front of us and believe them.
What are we doing?
Like, we just have to, we have totrust that individuals know themselves
and, and their families know them.
(09:19):
And anyway, we could go on anotherrant, but let's try to keep on track.
Basically, I think your name is brilliant.
I think, what you communicate isjust so, so useful and so practical.
So.
Like I was saying, this is a bit ofa weird time in the world of speech
pathology and what is Gestalt languageprocessing and is it a real thing?
We're getting a lot of articles andpresentations out there and there's just
(09:42):
a body of work and a bunch of people wholove to literally say that they're just
not going to listen to autistic people.
They're not going to listen to peoplewith lived experience, people who
are Gestalt language processorsor who claim to be in their words.
They, they don't believe themThere's a lot of people basically
saying this isn't a valid construct.
So what I wanted to do now, in thechat I had with Marge Blanc, we
(10:03):
went quite deep into the sort ofhistory and and this aspect of it.
What's going on with people kindof putting their hand up and
saying, no, no, no, it's not valid.
I was hoping that our chat wouldbe very, Hopeful, positive,
practical, focused, mostly.
So I'm hoping that you and I can talkabout what can we do, establishing
this idea that GLPs exist.
I mean, I, for example, identifyas one, it's a concept that
(10:25):
makes just so much sense.
It resonates.
It rings true for me, for thekids I've supported for, anyway.
Let's say GLPs exist.
Most of our chat, we're goingto focus on what can we do?
How can we support them?
But I think we have to acknowledgethere is this wave of people
denying the validity or questioningthe validity of this concept.
So maybe we could just spend a coupleof minutes just chatting about like,
(10:46):
what would you suggest to the speechtherapists who You might get questions
from colleagues, bosses, from parentswho say, Oh, but I heard that this
Gestalt language processing isn'treal or it's not evidence based.
Is there anything you want to share therethat you would support people to say?
Absolutely.
So years ago I created a post that'sactually pinned to my Instagram
(11:09):
page, basically about how to addressnaysayers or people that have criticism
or don't believe that it's real.
And I kind of give theexact language in that post.
But it's kind of funny becauseback when I wrote it, I don't feel
like there were a lot of naysayers.
And now I just feel like it's so relevant,which is why it's pinned because things
(11:33):
have definitely changed and shifted a bit.
And I think What I learned overtime in educating people, is there
seem to be a couple distinct groups.
So, there's a group of SLPs andprofessionals that will say to
me, Well, this is intuitive.
I've been doing this all along.
I just didn't know what to call it.
Or, also part of that group, they'llsay to me, Well, I knew that doing
(11:57):
compliance based things were, not a goodfit, but I didn't know what else to do.
Thank you for introducingme to something else.
And then the second group is the groupthat I just feel is really married to
behaviorist or compliance based technique.
And Anything else that issort of introduced in there is
(12:20):
immediately just squashed down.
Like this just does not fitwith what we know and what we
teach and what we practice.
And I feel like that group, thelatter group has become more
vocal in the more recent years.
and my advice for SLPs is to bevery honest with your clients.
(12:41):
I have a very small privatepractice, but when clients come to
us, I'm always honest with them.
I try to meet them wherethey're at in their journey.
And I will just say to them, I might notbe like other SLPs that you've met before.
I have a child led approach.
This is what that means.
This is how I'm going to lookat language with your child.
And I kind of lay it all out there.
(13:03):
SLPs that have reachedout to myself, my team.
Oftentimes, we'll say, well, thisparent got upset with me, or they
thought I was doing this, or they askedfor homework, or they're wondering
why I'm not sending worksheets.
And then most of the time, ifwe're like, hey, did you actually
have a conversation with them?
It's like nine out of 10 timesthey haven't, they just like
(13:24):
launched into the session or theevaluation or whatever it might be.
So I think.
Just as scary as it is having thatpreliminary conversation so the family
knows where you stand You kind of layout there what type of therapist you are
and see whether you're a good match forthem And they're a good match for you.
(13:44):
I Think that that is gonna lay a reallygreat foundation for moving forward
and there have been families Even withme, even at this point where, , you
would think that they would understandthat I'm very undeaffirming and child
led, but there have been familiesthat have said, well, I want this,
and I think my child needs to do this.
(14:04):
And I'll say, well, that's nothow we're going to do things here.
And that might not be the right match.
That's not where they'reat on their journey.
Isn't that interesting?
And, you're.
Profile out there is so well known,but it sounds like some people come in
still not quite getting it and I mm-hmmI tell this to therapists all the time.
That, well, anyone, anyone who hasa business, it's like, you at every
(14:26):
stage have to educate people aboutyour approach, , quite explicitly.
Yes.
And I, I'm so glad that you givethat advice, because I don't
think enough of us do that.
And then the family, the biggestcomplaint I get is the family
says all we're doing is playing.
Like, do they understand whatchild lead is and what your
(14:47):
goals with this child are?
You need to have a conversation.
And I think part of this is like asystemic problem because in a lot of
workplaces, we don't build that time in.
To have a family meeting orto actually talk to them, the
way that things are usuallystructured, at least here in the U.
S., in some of these bigger clinicsand hospital settings and schools as
(15:10):
well, it's get in, do the evaluation,schedule all the therapy sessions.
So there isn't that let's have aparent meeting and sit down and
talk about our goals in schools.
We do have IEPs, obviously, andthat would be a really great time
to bring this up at the IEP meeting.
But I don't often seethat in other workplaces.
And I think when it comes to privateservices, there's obviously a
(15:32):
lot more flexibility, especiallyif you're the business owner.
Like if it's your own practice, you getto choose how you run your whole thing.
How do you let people knowthe information at what stage?
How does the first session go?
But I think even for therapistswho work within any other
system, there's still chance.
Whatever the service delivery model,I think there's still chance and
(15:52):
necessity to let all the stakeholdersknow, especially family, but if
you're in schools, it's going to bethe teachers, the leadership as well.
Just everyone needs to know the approach.
How else can you be workingto support a child who lives
in these other environments?
And this is a good time to kind of bringup, I had a consultation on Tuesday with.
A speech pathologist.
(16:13):
It was not her own private practice.
She worked at a medium sized clinic,and she said, I'm meeting with you
because I've taken your course.
Two other speech therapistshere have taken your course.
We want to do what you're saying,but These kids are spending 40 hours
a week in applied behavior analysis,or the school is structured in a
(16:36):
way where they are basically doingcompliance based things all day long.
And so they're saying, we arenot seeing the kind of progress
that we've heard you talk about.
And I said, you know why, right?
And they said, yes!
So what do we do about it?
I think it was a really interestingconversation because first I told
the SLP, give yourself grace.
(16:58):
You're the only one in this child'slife right now trying to do this.
Nobody else.
And secondly, I said, we can'tchange a whole system overnight.
So one of the, I guess, piece of adviceI want to give now, since we brought this
up is , if a family chooses or someoneelse chooses to do other services that
(17:19):
don't align with NLA and child led.
You have to at least show the otherpeople in the family like what you're
doing and let them sort of either cometo you or draw their own conclusions
and the best way I've been able to dothat is showing my data because a lot
of these places are very data driven.
(17:42):
And so I teach this in my course.
I have no affiliation with Google Docs,but I just like using Google Docs.
And so I will use itto keep a language log.
And if family and everyone elsegives me permission, I share it
with everyone on the child team.
And that is my data.
Our language samples are our data.
(18:02):
And so when they see thelanguage is changing over time.
And they see my data at every session.
They start to get curious.
And if and when I can, I willalso attach or submit videos.
And I think the really interestingthing about people doing compliance
based services is a lot of timesthey don't realize they're always
(18:23):
getting the same type of languagebecause they're doing certain
activities to elicit that language.
And a lot of times they're very surprisedat how much spontaneous language I get.
Or I've heard things thatthey've never heard in their,
quote, unquote activities.
And a lot of times that willbe the turning point for them.
(18:44):
Well, how did you get that?
And how do I get that?
So, I wanted to just talk aboutthat a little bit, because we can't
change everything going on in achild's life, but we have the power
to showcase what we're doing and thatmight slowly start to change things.
I love that outlook.
So it's not about getting into a bleakmindset thinking, Oh, they, they're
(19:05):
doing this other therapy that I don'tagree with, or, , that other therapist
isn't having conversations with me.
It's actually going, well, I canjust try, I can try and speak
their language, meaning you're,you're speaking the language of.
Sharing data.
I think there's another effectwhich you touched on, but I want
to call out, which is you arethis person in the child's life.
One of the only, if not the onlyperson who is slowing down to see that
(19:28):
child, to be at that child's level,to meet them where they are, to enjoy
the things they enjoy in their way.
And that, that relationshipcan be so, so strong.
And yes.
I think even if we're there, an hour aweek or less, I don't think anyone should
diminish the power of the relationshipyou individually as a therapist can
build with a child when you really Seethem and do a lot of the strategies
(19:53):
that I think you might share with us.
That I teach and share a lot.
I, I believe I, I will say I'vehad a little squeeze at your
notes and I'm like, yes, yes, yes.
Like not, not that it was a test.
Just in terms of, yay, we teachso many of the same ideas.
like in my course for speechtherapists, I've got sections on
some of this and I'd love to hear it.
What you say to these therapiststhat you're coaching and supporting,
(20:16):
for example, you're seeing thesechanges in kids and the other people
supporting these kids are saying, Oh,I didn't know they could say that.
Like, what is it that you do?
What are these key strategies and ideasthat other therapists can take on as they
listen to this podcast and go, ah, I can.
Either give myself credit, Ido this really, really well, or
that's something I'm going to learnabout more or try to do more of.
(20:38):
What are some of these strategies, Alex?
Yes.
So let's get into that.
I think you said in my bio that I started.
Shifting things in 2016 when I gota hold of Marge's book and I did
cover to cover in a week and calledher, and, the rest is history.
She started mentoring me and all of that.
(20:58):
But I was part of the group of SLPswhere I think I had stuffed down my
intuition and just sort of listenedto the experts around me and I was.
Very much deep into compliance basedpractices, and I was not seeing, results
and I was feeling very frustrated.
(21:19):
And so I'm going to walk you throughgradually the changes I made because
this doesn't happen overnight.
And I'm actually in the processof re recording a couple modules
in my course because I hadoriginally recorded it in late 2021.
And I feel like the way I explain thingshas changed so much that I want to go
(21:40):
back in there and put this in there.
And this is actually something I'mgoing to include, but the first major
change that I made was realizing thatI needed to focus on connection and We
say connection over compliance now, butconnection, trust and the relationship
because I was following that model.
(22:01):
I talked about earlier where I didthe evaluation and then went into
all the therapy sessions and Ididn't get to know what the child
liked to play with at home or.
I have so many kids thatdon't even quote unquote play.
So just finding out whattheir special interests are.
I have a little boy I'm working with rightnow who's really into washing machines.
(22:24):
Or he'll load and unload thedishwasher all the time, which
is awesome for his family.
Figuring out ways to bringthat into the therapy room.
And old me?
would not have done any of that becauseI had this like agenda and I was also
trained under the medical model ofdisability, which is fix this child.
(22:46):
That was my training.
And so I thought, okay, weneed to get to functional play.
We need to stop lining things up.
We need to get in there and gethim requesting and commenting.
And now my number one goal in theevaluation and throughout my sessions
is I want this child to trust me.
(23:06):
I want to form a goodrelationship with them.
I want to get connected becausethat's the foundation of everything.
Okay, so how do you do that?
You're going to do thatthrough child led play.
And what does that mean?
That means I'm letting thechild lead the session.
So I'm not coming in there with alaminated strip and a plan, like, Hey,
(23:28):
we're going to work on these sentencestrips, or we're doing these cards today.
Or a lot of therapists will callthemselves play based, which is not
child led, because just because Ihave three or four toys in there, if
I'm in there with this agenda, thisis how we're going to engage with
these toys, that's not child led.
So I am really getting to know the childand the family as much as I can, figuring
(23:53):
out what their special interests are.
And so I usually tell peoplemy three, two, one rule.
So I have Three toys or objectsin available in the room three ish
and two are familiar to the child.
So I know they love them.
So I'm going to talk aboutone of my clients now.
He loves letters.
So there's always somekind of letter activity.
(24:15):
And then he also loves bubbles.
So I also have something Either justa typical way to blow bubbles or I
might have a bubble machine or I dida reel once about like 10 different
ways you could do bubble things.
So I have something in there with that.
Those are the two familiar.
And then the third is something new ish.
(24:37):
So it doesn't have to be somethingI ran and bought off the internet.
Sometimes I've brought in like an emptycardboard box, but something that is.
New to our sessions.
New to the child, maybe somewhat fits withtheir special interest, and if they want
to choose to engage with it, that's fine.
If not, that's fine around the holidays.
(24:59):
I'll usually bring in something holidayish, like a pumpkin around Halloween.
They can fill it with things ornot, but that newish thing gives
us like new language opportunities.
So the other mistake sometimes peoplemake when they go into doing child led
is they fall into the old way of thinkingwhere people have taught us that autistic
(25:22):
or neurodivergent kids need repetition.
So it's like, Oh, okay.
Every single time we'regoing to do the cars.
And then we're going to do the track, andthen we're going to read the book, and
then we're going to sing the goodbye song.
And every single time it's like this.
And then we're wondering why we'renot getting new or different language.
Why we're not gettingspontaneous language.
(25:43):
Or why the child perhaps hasa three alarm meltdown when
one day I don't do that book.
And actually, Rachel Dorsey has agreat module about that in my course.
I don't know if you've gotten to it yet,Adina, but she talks about what to do
if you've made the mistake of makingall of your sessions the same, the
same, the same, and then the child hasa meltdown when you try to change them.
(26:05):
The thing that I just, that crossedmy mind right now that there's such a
large percentage of autistic people,like myself, who are also ADHDers,
like it's, we don't have an exactnumber, but it's very large crossover.
And I'm thinking, it's alwaysa, an interplay in my life to
find the balance between routine.
Yeah.
And novelty.
And these kids are the same, whetheror not their ADHD is as well.
(26:26):
Yeah, there's still a balance.
And I think everyone's going tobenefit from somewhere on this
continuum between same ish orpredictable ish and familiar ish.
And like you said, introducingsomething that's new, different.
Can I ask how, how you actuallypresent that new thing?
Or like, do you care whether the childdoes anything with the new activity?
(26:48):
We don't care.
Usually it's not like I come in like,it's more like it's available in the room.
And then the three, two, onepart I forgot to add on is I say
three, two, one plus room to move.
And so I.
I know I'm lucky, I'm privileged,but I've got a gym space.
And so, I know my movers and shakersneed to be seen in the gym space.
(27:12):
I will walk SLPs through how to domovement in smaller spaces, like I'll talk
about pop up tunnels, foldable balancebeams, scooter board, things like that.
But, for a lot of our kids thatare not quite into toy play
yet, they want to be moving.
And that's where we're going to be gettinga lot of that spontaneous language.
Or swinging, I mean ithelps so many kids regulate.
(27:34):
So there's that piece as well.
I mean, even kids that are in stagesfour, five and six and they're doing
pretend play and they're havingconversations, they still need room to
move and they want to regulate as well.
So, but I think it's super importantfor our early stage kids,, and our
kids that are not into toy play yet.
So I started doing those things and that'sthe foundation of the changes that I made.
(27:59):
And then when it came to naturallanguage acquisition, The number
one thing that I tell everyone todo is acknowledge all echolalia.
I wasn't doing thisbefore, believe it or not.
I was telling kids things like nomovie talk or look, we're doing this.
I was constantly redirectingor trying to stop it.
(28:19):
I think I really knew inside that it waswrong, but I honestly had no other tools.
And I remember I had gotten to apoint of massive frustration and I
reached out to so many SLPs around me,like, what are you doing about this?
What are you doing about this?
And they were all tellingme the same thing.
Oh, well, we were taught toredirect it and ignore it.
(28:41):
And I actually, the way I found Marge'sbook is I had posted in a Facebook
group for private practitioners andI remember it was like crickets.
Nobody was like answering me.
And then one day I saw a notificationand an SLB in Idaho said, Oh,
have you heard of this book?
And I have shared this so many timesin March and I laugh about it, but I
(29:03):
clicked on the link and I'm like, Oh,like, is this from like the 1970s?
Cause she picked orangeand brown for her cover.
And I'm like, oh, that's whyI haven't heard of this book.
And then I looked at it andrealized it was published in 2012.
And I'm like, oh, it'slike a fairly new book.
No, I've never heard of it.
(29:23):
And I bought it and, that'show everything started for me.
Nobody knew what to do.
And I live in, like, justoutside of the third largest
city in the United States, okay?
I'm like, how does no one know what to do?
It's so wild and amazing to be able topinpoint these one moments, these, it's
a real sliding doors moments in yourcareer, but how that impact has spread
(29:47):
to so many professionals and thereforeto so many kids and families they
support is so, so cool to trace it back.
And.
It's phenomenal.
Like we are somewhere in themiddle of this huge, huge changing
tide, which I think is mostlyexciting, sometimes daunting.
I don't know about you.
That's how I feel.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah., I know this questionhas gone on forever.
(30:09):
I'm actually looking at like,have I shared all the strategies?
Yeah, I was going to say, we got toreally, the, the baseline was that
sort of making connection with, withkids, building that relationship.
And then you talked about acknowledgingecholalia kind of as the first
strategy on top of that, I guess.
What, what are the other main.
Preparation,
the other thing is, using moredeclarative language, which
(30:33):
is narrating and commenting.
And less questioning and prompting.
I mean, I would love it if people justeliminated questioning and prompting for
early stage GLPs, but in the beginning,I'm like, let's just do it less.
And then the final one is more silence.
So practicing silence and beingcomfortable with silence in our session.
(30:56):
I talk a lot about thisin my free masterclass.
You can probably link it in the shownotes and I'm, I'm probably going to
talk about it later as a resource or atool but a lot of people have said that
that was really eye opening to them.
I often encourage people to videotapethemselves and watch it back if they can.
And so many people realize howmuch they're talking in session.
(31:19):
Again, I think we're trained to justgo in there and talk, talk, talk, talk,
talk, and that's what's going to elicitlanguage from a child, but in Marge is
the original one that taught me this.
I think she said somethingalong the lines of silence.
Brings about more spontaneouslanguage and so many things.
I think that she initiallywas teaching me in 2016 2017.
(31:43):
I was kind of like, really?
Because I had never seen it in action.
But then when I actually started doing it.
I was blown away.
So that's another thing that Ithink is interesting with some of
the naysayers and the criticism.
I just want to say, go spenda day and sit in sessions with
Gestalt language processors.
(32:03):
Like actually watch this happenand realize that it's real.
Because if you haven't, I can see how youwould kind of question it if you had been
spending so many years doing the opposite.
Yeah, that's crucial.
And I think that's where I getall excited, frustrated about
the ivory tower of academia.
Folks who can be so disconnected fromthe people that they're talking about.
(32:27):
But that's, that is aconversation for another day.
, so we're on video now, Alex and I,and, but everyone's going to get
the audio, not the video of us.
But I was like clapping along whenyou're talking about the silence.
I teach the exact same thing in, in someof my, webinars and courses as well.
And how uncomfortable that can feel.
As a professional, some of thecomments, I'm sure you hear it as well.
(32:48):
Some of the comments that people sayabout this is, Oh, but they're gonna,
they're being the parents or, the otheradults in the room, they're going to
expect me to be saying something like,you think that you have to perform as a
therapist all the time, but That's not it.
It's like the relationship, thatconnection with the kid is actually
your first job and not the performingof interaction but the real true deep
(33:09):
interaction which for many, and I knownot all Gestalt language processors
are autistic but many are and for manyautistic people like me, certainly.
A nice way of connecting andinteracting is to be near someone
and to have that kind of presence andthat parallel play, whatever that can
look like as a grown up or, a grownup and child dynamic either way.
(33:31):
For many of the kids that I supportas well, it's that same thing as,
some of the best ways we can connectwith them is not by talking at them.
Labeling everything they do oralways interjecting into their play.
It's just, just being present andhonoring, they may have quite limited
social capacity, sensory systems thatneed not to hear talking all the time.
There's so many great reasonsthat silence is important.
(33:54):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So thank you for sharing those.
And at the end, I'll get you toshare, what some of the next steps
are that people can take to keeplearning with you, but I think
this is going to help many people.
Like I wanted to get some quick wins.
I want people to listen and go, ah, okay,yeah, I can do some of that a bit more
or learn a little bit more about that.
Tools.
Cheat sheets, helpful things.
(34:15):
What is helpful when somebody is workingwith the Gestalt language processor
and they think that this child isusing Gestalt and they think, I really
want to understand what that childmight be meaning with that Gestalt.
I want to understand how I can connectwith them further on that topic.
But.
I don't know, I don't know all thethings that they're watching on YouTube.
I don't know all the showsthat they're watching.
I don't know their favorite.
(34:35):
, I can't be across everything.
What are some of your favoritetools that make it easier for
professionals to kind of get intothe child's world or get some clues?
Yeah, we actually just created ahandout about this , Katie Arnold did.
She wrote Argus Shot Language ProcessingHandbook and , just updated it.
So if you are out there and own it,the second edition is available now.
(34:58):
All our updates are free.
and called Gestalt, bea Gestalt detective.
And so I'm going to giveit to your audience too.
We, sent it out, so I will sendit to you to share with them.
And we have all the websiteson there where you can look
up Gestalts, like get yarn.
io, SubZen, PopMystic, PlayPhrase,because yeah, you're right.
(35:21):
You can't know every episode of Bluey, butyou go in there, you type something in,
you realize where it comes from and, thatreally, really helps you understand maybe
why that child is using it as a gestalt.
I remember back to Bluey that one of myclients found a balloon in one of the
gyms, so like an OT must have blown itup with another client, and she walked
(35:45):
right up to it and said, keepy uppy.
And at the time, my braindidn't go to Bluey, did not, I
had no idea what was going on.
But if you're a Bluey fan, they play agame with the balloon called Keep uppy.
And I'm just going to jump inwith the full gestalt that goes
through my head, which is at thebeginning of the song, because we
(36:07):
listen to the album . in the car.
And there's mum going,I've got a game for you.
And the kids go, is it keepy uppy?
It's keepy uppy.
And so I, we do thisat home with my family.
I say to my daughter,I've got a game for you.
And it's not always keepy uppy.
And that's the joke.
We subvert the gestalt.
It's mitigated, right?
So I love these sites and so we havethem in a handy dandy handout that you
(36:31):
can kind of check out other resources.
I say start with all the free stuff first,because we do have, paid resources where
you can get very deep into our courses,but for free, check out our master class.
We have a general oneand one for AAC and GLP.
Almost 40, 000 have watched both, whichis incredible to me, but I just want to
(36:53):
keep spreading that around because it'sfor parents, staff, educators, anyone.
I have joked around about sharingit with bus drivers because it's
just a really good introduction foranyone who has a GLP in their life.
Tons of free information on Marge'sCommunication Development Center website.
(37:14):
We have our weekly blog andall the podcasts I've been
on, this one will be included.
and our blog comes out everyThursday and that's really
shareable, and easy for parents.
And then of course our social media posts.
I know social media has turnedinto lots of different things.
We are site.
I feel like it's just, our page is veryall educational, all about educating.
(37:39):
So you're not going to go on thereand see what I ate for breakfast.
, I actually tried that when I first startedthe Instagram because everyone's like, Oh,
everyone needs to know you and trust you.
I'm like, nobody really needs toknow, what I'm doing right now.
And so our, our page isstrictly just to educate you.
That's such an amazing list of resources.
(38:01):
I personally am interested in what youhad for breakfast, lunch, and dinner,
because I know you were recordinglate in your day, but that's okay.
I am going to put links tothe things that you shared.
They'll be in the show notes.
And to that handout, you'revery generously sharing.
And I love that it's called Gestaltdetective, because that's exactly
what I was thinking, that detectiveworks so beautifully named again.
And there's something you were mentioning,I know it's your newer courses, the
(38:22):
AAC for Gestalt language processes.
I would love to hear anything, like anybig key ideas that you want to share
about how it's different using AAC, andfor those who don't know the acronym,
it's augmentative and alternativecommunication, which refers to anything
that's not speech, , technically,but I think often in the, the broader
world, people think about it as sort ofthe iPad that talks for you, I guess,
(38:46):
to like put it in layperson's terms.
Yeah.
So I mean, does it, does yourcourse cover specifically like
high tech or not necessarily?
And anything that you wanted toshare about different strategies
using or introducing AAC with Gestaltlanguage processors as opposed
to analytic language processes?
Yes.
So Laura Hayes is a SLP in AAC.
(39:12):
I'm in there a little bit in thebeginning, but Laura does go through
low tech and high tech options.
She'll talk about speechgenerating devices.
I mean, we favor thosebecause they're robust.
The child can grow with them, butwe know that, low tech can be great
when there aren't other options.
We actually have, great low tech bookthat you can download that comes with the
(39:34):
course but, the bonus modules are goingto cover all the most popular apps and
show you how to program them for GLPs.
So here are a couple just quick tips.
The reason that this whole courseexists is because AAC both low tech
and high tech was basically createdfor analytic language processors,
and a lot of the courses that areout there are constantly pushing like
(39:59):
core and fringe vocabulary and words,words, words, and we know that our G.
L.
P.
S.
Are not quite ready for thatuntil they're in stage three.
So, the tip is do not erase anythingbecause it needs to be there.
We want it to grow with the child.
So I think that was a bigthing people were doing at
(40:21):
the beginning, erasing things.
So we say do not erase,we're going to add.
So I like to add things in tosupport stages one and two.
I have a little reel I shared during AACAwareness Month last year, where I just
walk people through exactly how to programa Gestalt into, I think it's TD SNAP.
(40:43):
But really it can be for any device.
I am just quickly going to tellyou that I like to have the whole
Gestalt on one button and then Ilike to put in language the child
already has because that is buy in.
They love to go on thereand see their own language.
And so even if they are communicatingsome of that with mouth words, it's
(41:06):
still going to be on their AAC device.
And then I also like to put inwhat I call potential gestalt.
So we haven't gotteninto all of this today.
Adina, you might've seen it in mysecond module, but I go through
all the communicative functionscategories like share joy, transitions,
health, protest, self advocacy.
(41:27):
So I'm going to go through all of those.
Within my mind with this child and pickwhat I call some potential gestalt.
So let's say I have a child thatdoesn't know how to self advocate,
isn't protesting, none of that.
So, parents and I decide that we wouldlove to hear something like don't touch
that or stop or even just not now.
(41:49):
And so we might put someof those on the device.
as potential gestalt.
Maybe the child chooses to communicatewith them or not, they are available.
So it's a mix of what's alreadythere and potential gestalts.
And what's great is a lotof our GLPs are musical.
So if they are singing likea song from Daniel Tiger.
(42:12):
I can go and put the whole song rightthere on the button or in most of
these devices, not all of them, butI can't get into the details about
that now, but having that feature isexcellent because then they're hearing
it the exact same way that it came in.
That is such a cool idea andit's something I want to do
for myself, like a simple.
(42:33):
way of accessing my favorite gestaltsto hear them because they're so joyful
and then to say them if I feel like it.
So cool.
I want to play more.
I need to get into that.
Hmm.
Thank you.
Such cool tips.
I'm like, how can I use this as an adult?
That's a whole separate section.
We have so many like sidebars we couldhave taken we've stayed very on topic.
I'm quite proud of us.
So there's so many ways tokeep learning from Alex.
(42:54):
And one of them, if you do feel likegetting into any of her courses,
obviously there's the free masterclassesand resources in the show notes.
Alex has generously shared acode with the audience, which is
Adina, top secret, it's my name.
And if you get any of her paid offersand use that, you will get 5% off.
And there's just somany amazing resources.
(43:15):
Like I said, I'm in the middle of yourmeaningful speech course, and I thought
I knew a lot about this stuff, but notwith this level of specificity or depth.
So I appreciate it so, so much.
Is there anything else that we're missing?
Like what haven't we touched on?
Is there anything that you feelwe really want to share with
parents and professionals whosupport neurodivergent children?
Oh like to share, just, just get started.
(43:39):
That is my piece of advice for everyone.
Start small, start with one child orstudent, write down what they say and
start to practice scoring using thenatural language acquisition framework.
If this is very new to you, and you'rea speech language pathologist listening
to this, I think it would be verydifficult to like, walk in and change what
(44:01):
you're doing with your entire caseload.
But if you just start really smalland target, like I said, one child
or student, that is what I did.
And then from there, as your knowledgegrows and you feel more confident,
you can spread it out to other people.
But I think I just don't wantpeople to feel like, Oh, I, I don't
(44:24):
know how to do this with everyone.
And it feels too dauntingand too difficult.
So just start small.
I love that.
It's achievable.
It's realistic.
Thank you so much for sharing yourinsights, your, just everything
that you've shared, not just inthis bubble here, but in your whole
career and what you do put out there.
It's so important.
(44:46):
And, I feel like.
Oh, I don't want to frame it in termsof battle, but if we were going into
battle, we're on the same team andI love that, but there's no battle,
we're just here to support the kids.
Definitely.
Thank you, Alex, and Ihope we'll speak again.
Thank you for having me.
You're welcome.
See ya!
Thank you so much for sharingthis space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
(45:08):
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day!
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