November 28, 2024 • 23 mins
In this episode, we’re redefining what 'evidence' means in the context of disability support and questioning who gets to decide what counts as valid. I’ll also share updates about Australia's National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS), including changes related to art and music therapy. The NDIS is meant to fund and support disabled people to access what they need for a decent quality of life, but there are challenges worth discussing.
Language warning! I get a little bit sweary in this episode because I feel strongly about these topics. If you’re listening with kids nearby, you might want to pop on some headphones!
Links:
Eye Contact Survey Results - www.playlearnchat.com/eye-contact
Podcast Episode 43 - https://playlearnchat.com/podcast-43/
Making Groups Happen - https://playlearnchat.com/making-groups-happen-webinar/
Your Streamlined Practice - http://ndbusiness.co/your-streamlined-practice-workshop
Podcast Guest Invitation - https://playlearnchat.com/contact/
Business Support for Neurodivergent Business Owners - https://ndbusiness.co/
Contact us at hi@playlearnchat.com
Podcast Link: https://pod.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:28):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:48):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:08):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
Brief overview of what's been going onthe NDIS national disability insurance
scheme you know, Australia is the fundingthat is supposed to support disabled
people to access the support to pay andtherefore access the things that they
(01:30):
need to be okay to live an okay life.
It is a shit show.
I get a little bit sweary in thisepisode so if you're listening with
kids around, just keep that in mind.
And if you don't likeswears, it's not too many.
Just the S H word try and keep it to that.
Who gets to decide what evidence is valid.
And whose stories and realities getignored in this process of deciding
(01:53):
what perspectives are most valuable?
If you're a health professional, oran allied health professional, or an
academic, you have been brought up.
through your training to know andlearn and seek evidence-based practice.
This phrase and term has undergonedifferent versions over time as Three BP.
E four BP I'm kind of awaiting EFIVEBPwhat I'm hoping to do through this
(02:14):
episode and through a lot of contentand writing that I've been doing lately
is call out and really get us thinkingcritically about what is evidence.
I've recently shared a post on socialmedia and also through my emails talking
all about, well, actually I titled it.
Your published research doesnot negate my lived experience.
And I'll be expanding on theseideas as well as linking it in with
(02:37):
some very recent, timely, and awfulchanges that's happening with the
NDIS in Australia at the moment.
That's our national disabilityinsurance scheme for those.
Immuno.
That is supposed to be fundingsupport for disabled people.
Now before we go any further, I want torecognize that some of this conversation.
We'll challenge you.
I hope so.
It challenges me.
(02:58):
In this redefining of evidence.
We are unraveling a lotof our previous learning.
We are questioning everything.
My calling out.
The biases.
The unspoken privileges.
And the exclusionary practices of whatis formerly being classified as evidence.
If this feels uncomfortable for you.
Good.
I hope so.
I want you to sit with that discomfort.
(03:19):
I want you to go inwardsand check with yourself.
Where is that coming from?
Where is that?
In congruence.
Stemming from between what I'm sharing,what I'm asking you to reflect on.
And your previously heldbeliefs and knowledge.
Somebody commented on one of theslides in my recent social media posts.
Now on that one slide it's possible.
She may have just seen that image.
He might've seen it completelyout of context, or maybe not.
(03:41):
I'm not sure.
What is written on that slide?
It says, so what should we allcollectively get better at?
And I suggested three things.
One of them was on this particular slide.
It says.
Recognize that years of formaleducation, hundreds of thousands
of dollars and boatloads of ego donot qualify someone to speak for.
And over those who livethat experience every day.
So this person on Facebook, wrote"As a parent and an academic, I
(04:05):
think this rhetoric is unhelpful".
I am hoping that she will saymy response and I hope that she
will continue that conversation.
And continue to reflect on whatthat thought of it being unhelpful
might mean where that comes from.
The world of academia publishedjournal articles, professorship,
well throwing books.
All of these things are highlyinaccessible, highly unequal
(04:27):
platforms, opportunities, and spaces.
In many, many, many cases, the people.
At the top of these letters.
Do not have the lived experienceof those that they talk about.
Of those that they claim to support.
Now, I'm going to pause here and say,there are more and more academics who are
openly, knowingly neurodivergent disabled.
There is more and more fantasticwork being put out there.
(04:49):
There are many great alliesputting out really great work.
Listening to those whohave lived experience.
And platforming those.
Who may not otherwise get a voice.
That's great.
And I'm hoping that thetide will continue to shift.
What I'm speaking to here is.
The very large corner of academia.
That dismisses lived experienceas something of less value and
quantitative research statistics.
(05:11):
Humans are really complicated and messy.
Humans a very individual.
It's very challenging inthese human sciences to get
incredibly great strong data.
To prove therapeutic interventions.
But it's rife throughout all ofthe research evidence and the
reports that we often have to write.
Lived experience is so oftendismissed as just anecdotal and
(05:32):
therefore not important, helpful,valid, or worth listening to.
Lived experience disrupts theseacademic norm, the stable conflicts
of academia, which just goes toreinforce these hierarchies of
power over and over and over again.
Excluded people continue to be excluded.
Systemic barriers like racism, ableism.
(05:53):
And you're a normativity.
That is.
Not valuing it neurodiversity, but insteadvaluing people, acting, thinking the same.
These systemic barriers.
So deeply embedded andwe have to question it.
Those barriers limit whogets to share their stories.
They limit what concepts are considered.
True.
What supports are worth paying for?
(06:14):
And this here is where the changes inNDIS supports come in in a big way to
demonstrate just exactly how damagingthis dismissal of lived experience is.
N D I S this week.
And recently has been having afabulous time, slashing supports,
trying to kick people out of this gameand doing incredibly harmful unfair
(06:35):
practices, like asking people to provetheir disability over and over again
with incredibly short timeframes.
All in the name of cost.
Cutting.
They claim that what they're trying todo is ensure that the supports people
are paying for are evidence-based.
Cool.
Great.
That sounds lovely.
Here we go.
What is evidence we needto redefine evidence.
(06:55):
The last few days NDIS has declaredthat art therapy and music therapy
funding will essentially be removed.
Rather than being funded at thesame rate as other allied health
professionals, which by the way,art therapists and music therapists
are allied health professionals.
If indeed somebody gets thatsupport in their NDIS plan, it's
going to be for a lower rate.
(07:17):
That is something about one thirdof that rate that it was before.
Now I know from a business perspective.
Having had my own business in this spaceand now supporting many other therapists
in with that business practices.
This is a very thin edge industry.
Profit margins are very, very small.
It's incredibly challengingto have a thriving.
(07:38):
Financially buoyant, private practice.
And that's just on an everyday levelthat doesn't even take into account
when N D I S throw these huge curveballs where people's funding might
get slashed, what people are gettingfunding for might get slashed.
All these changes happen invery short notice so that people
cannot even plan for the future.
Now a little bit later on, I willtalk more about the business impacts,
(07:59):
and the challenges there as well,but let's keep our ID or back here
on, you know, what's going on withthe NDIS changes at the moment.
Sorry, any practice who has arttherapists and music therapists has
until the 1st of February, I think itis, or one of the dates in February.
So.
Essentially three months notice.
To navigate these verysignificant changes.
(08:19):
People who are sole practitioners whoare art therapist or music therapists
are absolutely not just strugglingand concerned about how they're going
to go financially into the future.
But these changes havebeen thrown at them.
So, so quickly.
But then livelihoods mayessentially be destroyed.
This up ends everything from thebusiness perspective, the individuals
within the businesses, the individualswho are being told by the NDIS.
(08:42):
That the work they do isn't as valuable asthe work of other similar professionals,
which is just absolute bullshit.
It is not true.
So high art therapist onmusic therapists, listening.
I value you.
I know that the work you do isincredibly deeply important.
I've often shared clients withart or music therapists who
have had incredible outcomes.
And in some cases, you know, we'vestopped doing speech therapy so that
(09:04):
they could continue those therapiesbecause that was giving them more
quality of life, more support.
Then the speech therapy was at that point.
Now NDIS has decided that thesetherapies are not evidence-based enough.
And that's why they're getting slashed.
These are therapies that prioritizejoy connection, creativity.
These things are harder to quantify.
(09:25):
They bring holistic care quality of life.
Now I hope that all of ourtherapies do this as well.
But especially, this is especiallytrue for art and music therapy.
Speech pathology.
Occupational therapy, psychology.
So you shall work manyof our other therapies.
Traditionally I rooted in deficitmodels in this medical model of
trying to change people to getback to normal in inverted commas.
(09:48):
Rather than trying to supportpeople to understand themselves
live their best selves.
Be their most amazing self.
Of course I hope.
And in all of the training that Ioffer around neurodiversity affirming
practice, I hope that we're shiftingthis for a lot of our industries, but.
This is where we came from.
These are the histories and.
The big burden of.
Our professions.
(10:09):
So NDIS has decided that some alliedhealth professions are more valuable
based on evidence now, what evidenceI haven't had a chance to dig into.
They're probably very boringarticles that outline exactly how
they've come to their decisions.
I seem they're out there forpublic consumption and I assume
that these documents themselvesare likely very gatekeeping.
(10:30):
Wordy.
Difficult to navigatelike many of the other.
Publications that they put out.
What I know is that NDIS did notlisten to, or certainly didn't value.
The perspectives of those withlived experience, disabled people
who access art and music therapy.
And their families who can reporton the incredible positive change
that has happened for many, manypeople accessing these therapies.
(10:52):
So this recent news is just anothermassive blow to assist him that is
already incredibly unstable and.
Abelist.
Broken.
And unfair.
When institutions like NDIS likeacademic institutions dismiss the
value of lived experience, especiallyfrom those of marginalized groups and
intersectional marginalized groups.
(11:12):
Multiply marginalized people are theleast represented in all of these.
Formal decisions.
People who have multiple identities wherethey are marginalized for multiple reasons
they may be perhaps it's somebody who isblack indigenous, or a person of color.
And disabled.
And LGBT IQ plus.
These are the perspectives given aleast voice out there in the world.
(11:34):
They often have the least power todetermine what their future is what
they are allowed to do and not do.
Now I'm going to recognize here I myself.
Have.
Multiple privileges and somemarginalizations as well.
It's something I think about ingreat depth and I'm constantly
challenging this as well.
What I aim to do, and I hopethis comes through is to use
(11:55):
my positions of privilege.
As for example, a white woman withan education living in a safe place.
He can use math words.
A lot.
I E I have two podcasts.
You know, many of thesefactors stack up and.
I'm trying to use myposition of privilege.
To shake things up in a biggerway and to give platform.
Voice and support for those whodon't have as much opportunity to
(12:16):
have their perspectives shared.
So I did this recently, forexample, n S survey that I ran
getting diverse perspectives ofautistic folks around eye contact.
There was a podcast episodethat goes with that as well.
It's episode 43.
And you can also check out thefull results of that survey.
Which is at my website,playlearnchat.com/i hyphen contact.
(12:37):
In fact, the survey is still openand from time to time, I'll be
updating that website with newperspectives that have been shared.
So please feel free if you areautistic to go there and add
your voice to that as well.
So that's just oneexample of how I do that.
I also aim to share more and morediverse perspectives on the podcast.
And I will say this is justa little extra sidebar, I'm
(12:58):
thinking about my 2025 guests.
So please do feel free to get intouch if you are a Neurodivergent
person and you feel that you have.
A story, a perspective to share onthe exploring your diversity podcast.
No matter what your accessibilityneeds and communication support needs.
I would love to have youon in whatever way we can.
(13:19):
Make work for you.
So that even includes if you'rea non-speaking or not always
speaking person, we have a lotof technology available, a lot of
options for how we can get yourperspective out there on the podcast.
So please get in touch.
Uh, there'll be link in the show notes.
If you feel that you have somethingthat you'd like to share on
the podcast next year, there's.
Has your invitation.
I will continue to, you know, Iopen up the floor to more and more
(13:42):
diverse Neurodivergent voices.
Anyway.
That's a sidebar.
Well, let's come back tothis redefining evidence.
We need to break this cycle of exclusion.
That's what I'm trying to do here.
I really hope that I'm startingto shift the sands a little bit.
I want you to keepchecking in with yourself.
If I have poked something in you withsomething that I've shared today,
if I've challenged, your livelihood,challenged, your perspectives, challenged,
(14:05):
your deeply held beliefs about.
What kind of evidence is valuableto be listening, to, to pay for?
I want you to do some reflecting on it.
Please do.
And feel free to come back to me withyour reflections and thoughts as you go.
I will say what I findincredibly challenging.
Personally, this is myown lived experience.
And I know that this is the experienceof many other Neurodivergent people.
(14:27):
Many other disabled people is it takesan incredibly high emotional toll and
cognitive toll and energetic toll.
When we have to keep provingour validity in the world.
As an autistic ADHD or.
With a boatload of anxiety anda few other things going on.
What I also have is theability to mask my truth.
(14:47):
This comes with all the challenges,like people not believing
my experience, my neurotype.
My internalisedpresentation in many cases.
Of how I experienced mybrain, my life, my world.
I have days with lots of energy.
I have good.
Systems tools.
I have a fairly big audience.
Hello out there.
Thank you for listening.
(15:08):
I have a lot of things thathelp me defend my reality in
ways that are not too taxing.
For example, here I am sharing thispodcast episode and a few hundred of
you will probably be listening to it.
So I only have to say at once,and it will reach many of you.
So that's really, really cool.
But there are still so many opportunitiesor cases in my life where I have to
(15:28):
justify my existence first to myself.
Then to feel that I'm validenough in my own experience.
That it's worth sharing.
I also have to feel.
That by sharing my needs, myexperience, my perspective.
That it might make a change.
Self-advocating is bloody hard.
It's really unfair, but those whoneed support most have to spend the
(15:49):
most energy seeking that support.
shouting against a system thatis trying to squash us down.
I'm exhausted.
Just thinking about it.
So, I'm probably going to wrap thisup soon because this is big and heavy.
And I want to leave you with afew big ideas, but I do want to
come back to the business impacts.
I thought.
So I shared a littlebit about that before.
I've talked about it a bit here.
(16:10):
And some of you know that I have asecond business neurodivergent Business,
coaching and consulting where I supportprimarily Neurodivergent Business
owners to shift their businesses tofit their lives, their needs, their
dreams, their values so much better.
so I do a lot of business coaching.
I think business, I sleep in business.
I dream in business and I am justso, so devastated for anyone who
(16:33):
is navigating they's very quickvery broken decisions around.
And music therapy fundingbeing basically pulled.
I also have a great deal of empathyand my heart goes out to any business
functioning in the NDIS world.
It is constantly changing thatmeans you can't really plan ahead.
You can't easily plan for thefuture staffing of your business.
(16:56):
You'll financials.
Everything is up in the air.
The services you offer are beingshaped by the funding that people
have and that they're bringing to you.
And that is being shaped by whatthe NDIS says is worth funding and
also how much funding they get.
Power is being completely takenaway from business owners to make.
What would normally be just completelyeveryday business decisions.
Things like how much shouldI charge for my service?
(17:17):
Most businesses on earth, get to choosehow much they charge for a service
businesses dealing with NDIS funding.
I'm basically being dictatedto exactly how they're
supposed to run their business.
And that is.
Not working for so many.
One of the biggest.
Challenges that I see is peoplereally, really want to run groups,
groups that would be therapeuticallyvalidated and supportive, and
(17:38):
people are asking for it clients orprospective clients asking for it.
And NDIS makes it nearly impossibleto run groups that are financially
viable on the business perspective.
I have a webinar on this code, makinggroups happen, which will actually be
on sale on Friday the 29th of November.
So I'm going to put thelink in the show notes.
Where you can go and check that out.
There's actually all of my neurodiversityaffirming practice and business webinars.
(18:03):
I going to be on the sale40% off on that one day.
But the link will be there anyway.
So if you miss that day,if you're listening to this
after the fact, that's okay.
You can still get it.
It's still very affordable.
Where I help.
Allied health practice owners thinkabout how to set up the finances around a
group the marketing and other aspects to.
All of this to say is I guess oneof my privileges I need to call out
(18:23):
is I have a brain that innovates andmaybe that sort of ADHD me to some
degree kind of thinking, what else?
What else, what else?
How else could things look?
What else could I try?
There's also, I think autistic may, Ifind it very easy to challenge status quo.
Hello.
That's what we're doingin this podcast episode.
It's very natural for me to questionthings why do we do it that way?
How could it be different?
My brain does think in different ways.
(18:44):
And I say, pattens.
In what people areasking for in economics.
I understand how things fit together.
And I can seek out opportunities.
This is what I lovehelping other people do.
If you are a business dealingwith anything in the NDIS space.
I mean, if you're a businessanywhere it's important, but this
is so crucial for you right now.
You have to innovate in some way.
Sitting there and waiting forthe changes to happen to your
(19:07):
business you will be left behind.
You will be left, struggling.
You'll be chasing the tail of these NDIS.
Press releases.
That quickly changed things andyou will just be scrambling.
To figure out what next.
Now I'm not going to erase allthe scrambling because NDIS
makes everyone do that anyway.
But you can buffer it.
You can get very proactive.
And take some steps towards innovatingwhat your service delivery looks
(19:30):
like, innovating how you price for it.
Innovating how you do everything elsein your business, around the direct
service delivery to streamline theheck out of it so you do have more
capacity to deliver direct serviceswithout draining you so much.
There are so many ways that I lovesupporting business owners in that.
And if any of that is of interestto you, there's a few things I
want you to check out straightaway.
(19:50):
I've got a fresh workshopthat I've released.
I've opened up the doors to it iscalled your streamlined practice.
This is for any allied healthpractice owner who can come to Sydney.
On Friday, the 10th and Friday,the 17th of January, 2025.
You do not have to beNeurodivergent to join this.
They will be some NeurodivergentBusiness owners there and any business
(20:12):
owner who has an allied health practiceis welcome to join for that event.
Those two days of the workshop.
And then there's two ongoingsupport days a month.
And two months later.
I am helping peoplestreamline their practices.
We are diving into your processes,your procedures, your digital tools.
We're the framework that I shareso that you are making your whole
(20:32):
backend of your business streamlined.
So it fits it's easy.
It says hands off as possible.
For you, if you have a team for yourteam as well, and most importantly, we're
also making sure that your businesses.
Are more and more accessible forpeople of different neurotypes.
And have differentcommunication and support needs.
So, this is really the beautifulmashup of neurodiversity affirming
practice and streamlined businesssystems like this is everything I love.
(20:55):
This is my brain child.
So there's just 11 spaces goingto be available in that workshop.
It is live it's in-person we'regoing to be like, I'm catering it.
It's in a beautiful room.
It's awesome.
It's going to be awesome.
The link is in the show noteswhenever you're listening,
you can go and check it out.
So if it's full, if early birdpricing is finished, you might
still be able to grab a spot.
If it's done it's in the past,you might be able to get on the
(21:18):
wait list, so go and check it out.
It is called your streamlined practice.
And I am actually running itthrough my Neurodivergent Business,
coaching and consulting business,but essentially it's a collaboration
between the two sides of me.
There are other ways that I supportbusiness owners, Neurodivergent
Business owners, especially.
So also do go check outNeurodivergent Business, coaching
and consulting and see the otheroptions that I have to support you.
(21:41):
I want to leave us on a note of hope.
I don't want it all to be doom and gloom.
There is change afoot.
You are part of it.
I am part of it.
I am so deeply proud of being part ofthis Neurodivergent led advocacy movement.
I am so proud of the over 1500 and it'sprobably a lot more by now professionals
who have accessed my training.
And I'm so grateful for so many peoplewho are open minded to understand new ways
(22:05):
shift thinking and to challenge this ideaof what evidence is valuable to listen to.
This is a movement.
It is increasing bit by bit.
You are a part of it.
And thank you for being here.
Thank you for being open-minded.
To shifting what you alwaysknew, what you were always
taught, what you always believed.
I hope that you continue tolisten to diverse Neurodivergent
voices to inform how you supportNeurodivergent people in your life.
(22:28):
I hope that we all continue to centerlived experience really deeply value it.
To challenge and call that theprivileges that other people have.
To inspect our own biases, dismantle that.
And to rebuild a system thatactually reflects the needs of the
communities that we are supporting.
Just a small goal there
anyway thanks for being here.
And I love to hear your thoughts.
So feel free to get intouch, send me an email.
(22:50):
hi@playlearnchat.com link willbe in the show notes for that.
And also you can send achat to me on Instagram
. Thank you so much for sharing this space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
(23:11):
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day!
Welcome to the ExploringNeurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend
(00:28):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,
(00:48):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.
(01:08):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in.
Brief overview of what's been going onthe NDIS national disability insurance
scheme you know, Australia is the fundingthat is supposed to support disabled
people to access the support to pay andtherefore access the things that they
(01:30):
need to be okay to live an okay life.
It is a shit show.
I get a little bit sweary in thisepisode so if you're listening with
kids around, just keep that in mind.
And if you don't likeswears, it's not too many.
Just the S H word try and keep it to that.
Who gets to decide what evidence is valid.
And whose stories and realities getignored in this process of deciding
(01:53):
what perspectives are most valuable?
If you're a health professional, oran allied health professional, or an
academic, you have been brought up.
through your training to know andlearn and seek evidence-based practice.
This phrase and term has undergonedifferent versions over time as Three BP.
E four BP I'm kind of awaiting EFIVEBPwhat I'm hoping to do through this
(02:14):
episode and through a lot of contentand writing that I've been doing lately
is call out and really get us thinkingcritically about what is evidence.
I've recently shared a post on socialmedia and also through my emails talking
all about, well, actually I titled it.
Your published research doesnot negate my lived experience.
And I'll be expanding on theseideas as well as linking it in with
(02:37):
some very recent, timely, and awfulchanges that's happening with the
NDIS in Australia at the moment.
That's our national disabilityinsurance scheme for those.
Immuno.
That is supposed to be fundingsupport for disabled people.
Now before we go any further, I want torecognize that some of this conversation.
We'll challenge you.
I hope so.
It challenges me.
(02:58):
In this redefining of evidence.
We are unraveling a lotof our previous learning.
We are questioning everything.
My calling out.
The biases.
The unspoken privileges.
And the exclusionary practices of whatis formerly being classified as evidence.
If this feels uncomfortable for you.
Good.
I hope so.
I want you to sit with that discomfort.
(03:19):
I want you to go inwardsand check with yourself.
Where is that coming from?
Where is that?
In congruence.
Stemming from between what I'm sharing,what I'm asking you to reflect on.
And your previously heldbeliefs and knowledge.
Somebody commented on one of theslides in my recent social media posts.
Now on that one slide it's possible.
She may have just seen that image.
He might've seen it completelyout of context, or maybe not.
(03:41):
I'm not sure.
What is written on that slide?
It says, so what should we allcollectively get better at?
And I suggested three things.
One of them was on this particular slide.
It says.
Recognize that years of formaleducation, hundreds of thousands
of dollars and boatloads of ego donot qualify someone to speak for.
And over those who livethat experience every day.
So this person on Facebook, wrote"As a parent and an academic, I
(04:05):
think this rhetoric is unhelpful".
I am hoping that she will saymy response and I hope that she
will continue that conversation.
And continue to reflect on whatthat thought of it being unhelpful
might mean where that comes from.
The world of academia publishedjournal articles, professorship,
well throwing books.
All of these things are highlyinaccessible, highly unequal
(04:27):
platforms, opportunities, and spaces.
In many, many, many cases, the people.
At the top of these letters.
Do not have the lived experienceof those that they talk about.
Of those that they claim to support.
Now, I'm going to pause here and say,there are more and more academics who are
openly, knowingly neurodivergent disabled.
There is more and more fantasticwork being put out there.
(04:49):
There are many great alliesputting out really great work.
Listening to those whohave lived experience.
And platforming those.
Who may not otherwise get a voice.
That's great.
And I'm hoping that thetide will continue to shift.
What I'm speaking to here is.
The very large corner of academia.
That dismisses lived experienceas something of less value and
quantitative research statistics.
(05:11):
Humans are really complicated and messy.
Humans a very individual.
It's very challenging inthese human sciences to get
incredibly great strong data.
To prove therapeutic interventions.
But it's rife throughout all ofthe research evidence and the
reports that we often have to write.
Lived experience is so oftendismissed as just anecdotal and
(05:32):
therefore not important, helpful,valid, or worth listening to.
Lived experience disrupts theseacademic norm, the stable conflicts
of academia, which just goes toreinforce these hierarchies of
power over and over and over again.
Excluded people continue to be excluded.
Systemic barriers like racism, ableism.
(05:53):
And you're a normativity.
That is.
Not valuing it neurodiversity, but insteadvaluing people, acting, thinking the same.
These systemic barriers.
So deeply embedded andwe have to question it.
Those barriers limit whogets to share their stories.
They limit what concepts are considered.
True.
What supports are worth paying for?
(06:14):
And this here is where the changes inNDIS supports come in in a big way to
demonstrate just exactly how damagingthis dismissal of lived experience is.
N D I S this week.
And recently has been having afabulous time, slashing supports,
trying to kick people out of this gameand doing incredibly harmful unfair
(06:35):
practices, like asking people to provetheir disability over and over again
with incredibly short timeframes.
All in the name of cost.
Cutting.
They claim that what they're trying todo is ensure that the supports people
are paying for are evidence-based.
Cool.
Great.
That sounds lovely.
Here we go.
What is evidence we needto redefine evidence.
(06:55):
The last few days NDIS has declaredthat art therapy and music therapy
funding will essentially be removed.
Rather than being funded at thesame rate as other allied health
professionals, which by the way,art therapists and music therapists
are allied health professionals.
If indeed somebody gets thatsupport in their NDIS plan, it's
going to be for a lower rate.
(07:17):
That is something about one thirdof that rate that it was before.
Now I know from a business perspective.
Having had my own business in this spaceand now supporting many other therapists
in with that business practices.
This is a very thin edge industry.
Profit margins are very, very small.
It's incredibly challengingto have a thriving.
(07:38):
Financially buoyant, private practice.
And that's just on an everyday levelthat doesn't even take into account
when N D I S throw these huge curveballs where people's funding might
get slashed, what people are gettingfunding for might get slashed.
All these changes happen invery short notice so that people
cannot even plan for the future.
Now a little bit later on, I willtalk more about the business impacts,
(07:59):
and the challenges there as well,but let's keep our ID or back here
on, you know, what's going on withthe NDIS changes at the moment.
Sorry, any practice who has arttherapists and music therapists has
until the 1st of February, I think itis, or one of the dates in February.
So.
Essentially three months notice.
To navigate these verysignificant changes.
(08:19):
People who are sole practitioners whoare art therapist or music therapists
are absolutely not just strugglingand concerned about how they're going
to go financially into the future.
But these changes havebeen thrown at them.
So, so quickly.
But then livelihoods mayessentially be destroyed.
This up ends everything from thebusiness perspective, the individuals
within the businesses, the individualswho are being told by the NDIS.
(08:42):
That the work they do isn't as valuable asthe work of other similar professionals,
which is just absolute bullshit.
It is not true.
So high art therapist onmusic therapists, listening.
I value you.
I know that the work you do isincredibly deeply important.
I've often shared clients withart or music therapists who
have had incredible outcomes.
And in some cases, you know, we'vestopped doing speech therapy so that
(09:04):
they could continue those therapiesbecause that was giving them more
quality of life, more support.
Then the speech therapy was at that point.
Now NDIS has decided that thesetherapies are not evidence-based enough.
And that's why they're getting slashed.
These are therapies that prioritizejoy connection, creativity.
These things are harder to quantify.
(09:25):
They bring holistic care quality of life.
Now I hope that all of ourtherapies do this as well.
But especially, this is especiallytrue for art and music therapy.
Speech pathology.
Occupational therapy, psychology.
So you shall work manyof our other therapies.
Traditionally I rooted in deficitmodels in this medical model of
trying to change people to getback to normal in inverted commas.
(09:48):
Rather than trying to supportpeople to understand themselves
live their best selves.
Be their most amazing self.
Of course I hope.
And in all of the training that Ioffer around neurodiversity affirming
practice, I hope that we're shiftingthis for a lot of our industries, but.
This is where we came from.
These are the histories and.
The big burden of.
Our professions.
(10:09):
So NDIS has decided that some alliedhealth professions are more valuable
based on evidence now, what evidenceI haven't had a chance to dig into.
They're probably very boringarticles that outline exactly how
they've come to their decisions.
I seem they're out there forpublic consumption and I assume
that these documents themselvesare likely very gatekeeping.
(10:30):
Wordy.
Difficult to navigatelike many of the other.
Publications that they put out.
What I know is that NDIS did notlisten to, or certainly didn't value.
The perspectives of those withlived experience, disabled people
who access art and music therapy.
And their families who can reporton the incredible positive change
that has happened for many, manypeople accessing these therapies.
(10:52):
So this recent news is just anothermassive blow to assist him that is
already incredibly unstable and.
Abelist.
Broken.
And unfair.
When institutions like NDIS likeacademic institutions dismiss the
value of lived experience, especiallyfrom those of marginalized groups and
intersectional marginalized groups.
(11:12):
Multiply marginalized people are theleast represented in all of these.
Formal decisions.
People who have multiple identities wherethey are marginalized for multiple reasons
they may be perhaps it's somebody who isblack indigenous, or a person of color.
And disabled.
And LGBT IQ plus.
These are the perspectives given aleast voice out there in the world.
(11:34):
They often have the least power todetermine what their future is what
they are allowed to do and not do.
Now I'm going to recognize here I myself.
Have.
Multiple privileges and somemarginalizations as well.
It's something I think about ingreat depth and I'm constantly
challenging this as well.
What I aim to do, and I hopethis comes through is to use
(11:55):
my positions of privilege.
As for example, a white woman withan education living in a safe place.
He can use math words.
A lot.
I E I have two podcasts.
You know, many of thesefactors stack up and.
I'm trying to use myposition of privilege.
To shake things up in a biggerway and to give platform.
Voice and support for those whodon't have as much opportunity to
(12:16):
have their perspectives shared.
So I did this recently, forexample, n S survey that I ran
getting diverse perspectives ofautistic folks around eye contact.
There was a podcast episodethat goes with that as well.
It's episode 43.
And you can also check out thefull results of that survey.
Which is at my website,playlearnchat.com/i hyphen contact.
(12:37):
In fact, the survey is still openand from time to time, I'll be
updating that website with newperspectives that have been shared.
So please feel free if you areautistic to go there and add
your voice to that as well.
So that's just oneexample of how I do that.
I also aim to share more and morediverse perspectives on the podcast.
And I will say this is justa little extra sidebar, I'm
(12:58):
thinking about my 2025 guests.
So please do feel free to get intouch if you are a Neurodivergent
person and you feel that you have.
A story, a perspective to share onthe exploring your diversity podcast.
No matter what your accessibilityneeds and communication support needs.
I would love to have youon in whatever way we can.
(13:19):
Make work for you.
So that even includes if you'rea non-speaking or not always
speaking person, we have a lotof technology available, a lot of
options for how we can get yourperspective out there on the podcast.
So please get in touch.
Uh, there'll be link in the show notes.
If you feel that you have somethingthat you'd like to share on
the podcast next year, there's.
Has your invitation.
I will continue to, you know, Iopen up the floor to more and more
(13:42):
diverse Neurodivergent voices.
Anyway.
That's a sidebar.
Well, let's come back tothis redefining evidence.
We need to break this cycle of exclusion.
That's what I'm trying to do here.
I really hope that I'm startingto shift the sands a little bit.
I want you to keepchecking in with yourself.
If I have poked something in you withsomething that I've shared today,
if I've challenged, your livelihood,challenged, your perspectives, challenged,
(14:05):
your deeply held beliefs about.
What kind of evidence is valuableto be listening, to, to pay for?
I want you to do some reflecting on it.
Please do.
And feel free to come back to me withyour reflections and thoughts as you go.
I will say what I findincredibly challenging.
Personally, this is myown lived experience.
And I know that this is the experienceof many other Neurodivergent people.
(14:27):
Many other disabled people is it takesan incredibly high emotional toll and
cognitive toll and energetic toll.
When we have to keep provingour validity in the world.
As an autistic ADHD or.
With a boatload of anxiety anda few other things going on.
What I also have is theability to mask my truth.
(14:47):
This comes with all the challenges,like people not believing
my experience, my neurotype.
My internalisedpresentation in many cases.
Of how I experienced mybrain, my life, my world.
I have days with lots of energy.
I have good.
Systems tools.
I have a fairly big audience.
Hello out there.
Thank you for listening.
(15:08):
I have a lot of things thathelp me defend my reality in
ways that are not too taxing.
For example, here I am sharing thispodcast episode and a few hundred of
you will probably be listening to it.
So I only have to say at once,and it will reach many of you.
So that's really, really cool.
But there are still so many opportunitiesor cases in my life where I have to
(15:28):
justify my existence first to myself.
Then to feel that I'm validenough in my own experience.
That it's worth sharing.
I also have to feel.
That by sharing my needs, myexperience, my perspective.
That it might make a change.
Self-advocating is bloody hard.
It's really unfair, but those whoneed support most have to spend the
(15:49):
most energy seeking that support.
shouting against a system thatis trying to squash us down.
I'm exhausted.
Just thinking about it.
So, I'm probably going to wrap thisup soon because this is big and heavy.
And I want to leave you with afew big ideas, but I do want to
come back to the business impacts.
I thought.
So I shared a littlebit about that before.
I've talked about it a bit here.
(16:10):
And some of you know that I have asecond business neurodivergent Business,
coaching and consulting where I supportprimarily Neurodivergent Business
owners to shift their businesses tofit their lives, their needs, their
dreams, their values so much better.
so I do a lot of business coaching.
I think business, I sleep in business.
I dream in business and I am justso, so devastated for anyone who
(16:33):
is navigating they's very quickvery broken decisions around.
And music therapy fundingbeing basically pulled.
I also have a great deal of empathyand my heart goes out to any business
functioning in the NDIS world.
It is constantly changing thatmeans you can't really plan ahead.
You can't easily plan for thefuture staffing of your business.
(16:56):
You'll financials.
Everything is up in the air.
The services you offer are beingshaped by the funding that people
have and that they're bringing to you.
And that is being shaped by whatthe NDIS says is worth funding and
also how much funding they get.
Power is being completely takenaway from business owners to make.
What would normally be just completelyeveryday business decisions.
Things like how much shouldI charge for my service?
(17:17):
Most businesses on earth, get to choosehow much they charge for a service
businesses dealing with NDIS funding.
I'm basically being dictatedto exactly how they're
supposed to run their business.
And that is.
Not working for so many.
One of the biggest.
Challenges that I see is peoplereally, really want to run groups,
groups that would be therapeuticallyvalidated and supportive, and
(17:38):
people are asking for it clients orprospective clients asking for it.
And NDIS makes it nearly impossibleto run groups that are financially
viable on the business perspective.
I have a webinar on this code, makinggroups happen, which will actually be
on sale on Friday the 29th of November.
So I'm going to put thelink in the show notes.
Where you can go and check that out.
There's actually all of my neurodiversityaffirming practice and business webinars.
(18:03):
I going to be on the sale40% off on that one day.
But the link will be there anyway.
So if you miss that day,if you're listening to this
after the fact, that's okay.
You can still get it.
It's still very affordable.
Where I help.
Allied health practice owners thinkabout how to set up the finances around a
group the marketing and other aspects to.
All of this to say is I guess oneof my privileges I need to call out
(18:23):
is I have a brain that innovates andmaybe that sort of ADHD me to some
degree kind of thinking, what else?
What else, what else?
How else could things look?
What else could I try?
There's also, I think autistic may, Ifind it very easy to challenge status quo.
Hello.
That's what we're doingin this podcast episode.
It's very natural for me to questionthings why do we do it that way?
How could it be different?
My brain does think in different ways.
(18:44):
And I say, pattens.
In what people areasking for in economics.
I understand how things fit together.
And I can seek out opportunities.
This is what I lovehelping other people do.
If you are a business dealingwith anything in the NDIS space.
I mean, if you're a businessanywhere it's important, but this
is so crucial for you right now.
You have to innovate in some way.
Sitting there and waiting forthe changes to happen to your
(19:07):
business you will be left behind.
You will be left, struggling.
You'll be chasing the tail of these NDIS.
Press releases.
That quickly changed things andyou will just be scrambling.
To figure out what next.
Now I'm not going to erase allthe scrambling because NDIS
makes everyone do that anyway.
But you can buffer it.
You can get very proactive.
And take some steps towards innovatingwhat your service delivery looks
(19:30):
like, innovating how you price for it.
Innovating how you do everything elsein your business, around the direct
service delivery to streamline theheck out of it so you do have more
capacity to deliver direct serviceswithout draining you so much.
There are so many ways that I lovesupporting business owners in that.
And if any of that is of interestto you, there's a few things I
want you to check out straightaway.
(19:50):
I've got a fresh workshopthat I've released.
I've opened up the doors to it iscalled your streamlined practice.
This is for any allied healthpractice owner who can come to Sydney.
On Friday, the 10th and Friday,the 17th of January, 2025.
You do not have to beNeurodivergent to join this.
They will be some NeurodivergentBusiness owners there and any business
(20:12):
owner who has an allied health practiceis welcome to join for that event.
Those two days of the workshop.
And then there's two ongoingsupport days a month.
And two months later.
I am helping peoplestreamline their practices.
We are diving into your processes,your procedures, your digital tools.
We're the framework that I shareso that you are making your whole
(20:32):
backend of your business streamlined.
So it fits it's easy.
It says hands off as possible.
For you, if you have a team for yourteam as well, and most importantly, we're
also making sure that your businesses.
Are more and more accessible forpeople of different neurotypes.
And have differentcommunication and support needs.
So, this is really the beautifulmashup of neurodiversity affirming
practice and streamlined businesssystems like this is everything I love.
(20:55):
This is my brain child.
So there's just 11 spaces goingto be available in that workshop.
It is live it's in-person we'regoing to be like, I'm catering it.
It's in a beautiful room.
It's awesome.
It's going to be awesome.
The link is in the show noteswhenever you're listening,
you can go and check it out.
So if it's full, if early birdpricing is finished, you might
still be able to grab a spot.
If it's done it's in the past,you might be able to get on the
(21:18):
wait list, so go and check it out.
It is called your streamlined practice.
And I am actually running itthrough my Neurodivergent Business,
coaching and consulting business,but essentially it's a collaboration
between the two sides of me.
There are other ways that I supportbusiness owners, Neurodivergent
Business owners, especially.
So also do go check outNeurodivergent Business, coaching
and consulting and see the otheroptions that I have to support you.
(21:41):
I want to leave us on a note of hope.
I don't want it all to be doom and gloom.
There is change afoot.
You are part of it.
I am part of it.
I am so deeply proud of being part ofthis Neurodivergent led advocacy movement.
I am so proud of the over 1500 and it'sprobably a lot more by now professionals
who have accessed my training.
And I'm so grateful for so many peoplewho are open minded to understand new ways
(22:05):
shift thinking and to challenge this ideaof what evidence is valuable to listen to.
This is a movement.
It is increasing bit by bit.
You are a part of it.
And thank you for being here.
Thank you for being open-minded.
To shifting what you alwaysknew, what you were always
taught, what you always believed.
I hope that you continue tolisten to diverse Neurodivergent
voices to inform how you supportNeurodivergent people in your life.
(22:28):
I hope that we all continue to centerlived experience really deeply value it.
To challenge and call that theprivileges that other people have.
To inspect our own biases, dismantle that.
And to rebuild a system thatactually reflects the needs of the
communities that we are supporting.
Just a small goal there
anyway thanks for being here.
And I love to hear your thoughts.
So feel free to get intouch, send me an email.
(22:50):
hi@playlearnchat.com link willbe in the show notes for that.
And also you can send achat to me on Instagram
. Thank you so much for sharing this space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
(23:11):
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day!
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