Regulation & Co-Regulation - What we're getting wrong & how to get it right with OT Cheri Strecker - Exploring Neurodiversity with Adina Levy from Play. Learn. Chat

Episode Transcript
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Adina (00:10):
Welcome to the Exploring Neurodiversity Podcast for adults
who support Neurodivergent children.
Whether you're an allied healthprofessional, medical professional,
education professional or aparent of a Neurodivergent
child, you are welcome here.
This podcast is recorded on the Aboriginallands of the Gadigal and Bidjigal people.
I acknowledge the traditional ownerselders past and present, and I extend

(00:31):
my acknowledgement to any Aboriginalfirst nations people listening in.
I'm Adina from Play.
Learn.
Chat.
I'm an autistic ADHDer, a speechtherapist, professional educator
speaker, and I also supportNeurodivergent Business owners in
my other business, neurodivergentBusiness Coaching and Consulting.
I'm obsessed with creating a world whenNeurodivergent people are understood,

(00:51):
embraced, supported, and celebrated.
A world where we Neurodivergentpeople can understand ourselves and
thrive in a life aligned with ourindividual strengths, wants and needs.
On the Exploring NeurodiversityPodcast, you'll get my
perspectives and conversationswith my Neurodivergent friends.
All about how adults can best supportNeurodivergent children in our lives.

(01:12):
I bring a NeurodiversityAffirming approach and indeed a
human affirming approach to thesupport that we all provide for
Neurodivergent kids in our lives.
Let's dive in
Hello, Cheri.
How are you?
I'm good.
How are you?
Good.
I'm very excited to have you here becausewhat we're gonna talk about today is so,
so important for therapists, parents,professionals, humans, to understand

(01:34):
for ourselves, for the kids we support.
Um, I always dive too far deep,but who are you, what do you do?
Let's, let's work this out first.
I'm just excited.

Cheri (01:44):
So I'm Cheri, I'm an OT qualified Occupational Therapist.
Um, I work for myself runningmy own business, which is Learn
and Grow Occupational Therapy.
Um, and I'm based in Geelong Victoria.
But yeah, I, um, spend my timesupporting kids and families, um,
and other OTs out in the world.

(02:05):
So I love educating people.
Supporting people, building thoseauthentic connections, um, and
talking a lot about regulation,

Adina (02:14):
which is what we're chatting about today.
I think by the end of it, we're all gonnabe much clearer about what regulation
actually is and what can we do about it.

Cheri (02:24):
I hope so.
That that's, that's

Adina (02:26):
the point.
I hope so.
Yes.
And I know we're talkingabout co-regulation as well.
These are terms that might befamiliar to a lot of people and.
I dunno that I could define them verywell, but I think I've got a pretty
okay idea, but I can't wait to hear froma neuro divergent OT who just thinks
about this stuff, writes about thisstuff all the time, teaches us about it.
I can't wait.
So thank you for being here to join in.

Cheri (02:48):
Thank you.
It's, it's exciting being here.
My first podcast.

Adina (02:52):
Podcast, yes.
And yeah, first of many.
I'm just gonna go out and say it.
If anyone else has a podcast andyou're listening in and you wanna
chat with Cheri, just just do go.
'cause she's lovely.
That's all I've got to say toyou now, but stay and listen.
So let's kick off with who you are, likea little, uh, deeper version than the bio.
Can you tell us a bit about how youview Neurodivergence in your own life,

(03:15):
in yourself, and anything about yourjourney that you wanna share about
your neurodivergent brain and self?

Cheri (03:23):
Absolutely.
So I am a late diagnosedautistic and A-D-H-D-R.
Um, certainly the last coupleof years I think, I actually
can't remember time flies.
Um, and once I kind of explored that andwhat it meant to me, so many things just

(03:43):
seemed to click in place or make sense.
Um, and I felt like I could definitelyunderstand myself much better.
Um, especially looking back on mychildhood and kind of reflecting on
it, um, I was like, oh, that's whythere were certain situations or
things that were hard that I nevernecessarily voiced, but were hard.

(04:04):
Um, you know, I, and I was misdiagnosed asa kid with separation and social anxiety,
which I think was actually because of mynd brain not creeping with changes and
new things rather than social anxiety.

Adina (04:17):
I mean, that sounds kind of like an autistic kid often, doesn't it?

Cheri (04:21):
Especially girls.
Especially girls.
Yeah.
Um, social anxiety isquite often misdiagnosed.
And um, you know, also told thatI had like stomach migraines
and stuff like that, which I, Idon't think that was the case.
I think it was just a physicalmanifestation of um, not coping
with this situation right now.
Um, and I masked a lot as a kid, soI was very much follow the rules,

(04:48):
you know, um, because I didn't knowwhat to do outside of those rules.
I didn't understand, Ididn't know how to act.
I needed those rules to fit in.
So very high mask.
I still am, I still am, I mask.
Um, but I am super gratefulfor having my neuro brain.
Um, and mostly because it allowsme to connect with the kids I

(05:10):
work with on such a deeper level.
Um.
And it's just beautiful, just,it just comes so naturally, just,
just so many shared experiencesthat I have with the kids.
Um, and many of my special interests arequite, um, uh, like a lot of common stuff
I have in common with the kids as well.

Adina (05:30):
Tell us about your special interests, whether they're like current,
past, stable, static, changing, whatever.

Cheri (05:36):
Yeah.
So, I've got one at the moment,which is a newer one and I absolutely
love it, which is Moana two.
I reckon I've watched it every daysince it came out on Disney Plus.
That's

Adina (05:47):
awesome.
So I am so glad that I did my homeworkunknowingly because I watched it finally
for the first time yesterday and we'dactually listened to the soundtrack a lot.
'cause we, we, my daughter and I,we love Moana one, but it took her a
while to feel ready to watch more ontwo, and in fact, I was ready first.
So I started watching it and thenshe got up and kept watching with me

Cheri (06:06):
The
soundtrack is so good.
I love the soundtrack.
Disney in general, I justlove Disney in general.
I mean, I have the same maybe like five orsix movies that I have just on rotation.
Please share with no judgment.
I'm just gonna list them

Adina (06:20):
off

Cheri (06:21):
so I've got some like, I suppose.
I call them newer ormore like modern Disney.
So, um, like Encanto tangled, um,Moana one, um, princess and The Frog.
And then I've got some like olderDisney favorites, like the goofy
movie, the Empress New Groove.
Um, but yeah, I just, Disney'sjust constantly on rotation in my

Adina (06:45):
house.
I love that it's such a safething when you have, whether
it's Disney or another show.
Um, I know for so many of us autisticfolks, it's such a, a safe comfort thing
to just have it there in the background.
It's like, I don't know, for me itfeels like a coming home or coming back
to my people or something like that.

Cheri (07:01):
Yeah, it's like really?
Yeah, it's, there'sjust something about it.
I think it's like familiarity aswell, just like that, that sense of,
um, you know, what's going to happen.
It's.
Yeah, very comforting.

Adina (07:15):
Yeah.
Um, and I will say there's an extensionfor me, and this is probably a whole
other podcast, but there's an extensionfor me, which is like, when there's
a remake, I get really nervous.
So one of my, my number one Disney film isBeauty and the Beast, and probably because
it came out at my most impressionableage, or like I had it on VHS and watched
it probably every day around the agesof seven to 10, something like that.

(07:38):
Yeah.
Um, and I can recite thewhole thing pretty much.
If you give me a line, I canjust keep going of the original.
I'm, I'm talking like, you know, theDisney original, the nineties one?
Yes.
Yeah.
When the remake came out, like,I've seen it once and it was, it
was good, but it's not the same.
And they changed a few thingsand, and it was different.
And I feel really uncomfortableand I don't have any inclination

(07:59):
to watch it more than once.
Yeah, no,

Cheri (08:01):
I get that.
And like, one thing that doesirritate me a little bit is
they've changed the animation.
In recent years in like thelast maybe like 10 to 15 years.
So if you go back and like watch,I think the last kind of one that
was done in the old school animationwas uh, the princess and the frog.
Like the hand drawn do you mean?

(08:22):
Yeah, just like the way it looks.
So a lot of it now is more like threeDs kind of thing and I'm not Gotcha.
I like old school stuff.
Like my like creative art sideof me is like, oh, why did you
change something that was good

Adina (08:35):
and that was stable for such a long time.
Like we were watching Alice in Wonderlanda few, maybe a month or two ago.
And that is from the forties maybe.
Like that is, that's it could alsohave been made 20, 30, 40 years later
and it would've looked quite similar.
Yes.
It's interesting.
That is interesting.
Maybe we actually need to do awhole Disney deep dive episode.

(08:55):
I'm thinking an info.

Cheri (08:57):
I actually did a string of, post an email.
In January about, neurodivergencein Disney movies.

Adina (09:04):
It's brilliant.
I'm gonna link to, I'm gonna linkto some of it in the show notes
because um, they were awesome.
Yeah.

Cheri (09:10):
Yeah.
It was fun.
It was fun doing that.
And like, I had a lot of parentsbe like, oh, I never viewed
that character as like, yeah.
Being neurodivergent.

Adina (09:19):
I'm

Cheri (09:19):
like, well,

Adina (09:20):
I think they are.
Yeah.
Do you have one characterthat you identify with?

Cheri (09:25):
Mirabel from Encanto, hands down.
Oh.
On.
Like, she's the youngest of three girls.
I'm the youngest of three girls.
Just how much she highly values family,um, which is, I, I strongly resonate with.
Um, and just that, you know, masking,people pleasing, um, you know,

(09:46):
all stuff that I do and have done.
Growing up.
Um, and she's very crafty like me as well.
You know, she does a lotof sewing and whatnot.
So yeah.

Adina (09:56):
I love that so much.
I see it, I see it in you.
I see it in her.
I think it's beautiful.
And I think, I mean, there's so much tobe said about the neurodivergence of the
characters and in you have said some ofit, I feel like with Bel it's this idea.
It's like she was late tofinding out her special thing.
And that can be so often theexperience of us late diagnosed folk.

(10:18):
Do you feel that you're there?
Because I, I see it from the outside.
I see your special thing.

Cheri (10:23):
Yes.
Yeah, I, I definitely, now I do,but growing up it was, it was
definitely not the case growing up.
I think, 'cause I've just, I'm so muchmore thoughtful now as an adult as
well, so, you know, I am not surprised.
Me as a kid or other kidsnow don't, they don't see it.

Adina (10:40):
Yeah,

Cheri (10:41):
that's okay.
You know, they don't have thesame brain as you do as an adult.

Adina (10:45):
Yes.
Although I then think about all thekids who are now getting identified
or diagnosed much earlier and,you know, maybe they, let's say
on paper looks similar to us.
But we find, found out, you know, decadeslater in our own timeline, I'm, I'm
so hopeful for them that they get thisself knowledge, this self-confidence,
this community much earlier.
Yeah.

Cheri (11:06):
Yeah.
And I love that.
I'm a role model of that.
Like going to these kids andbeing like, Hey, that's me too.
You know, I'm successful.
I've, you know, got allthis stuff going for me.
Life can be great when you're an adult.
I know it's hard now, butthis is what it can look like.
Yeah.
There's so many opportunities now.

Adina (11:23):
I love it.
That's such a beautiful thing to model andyour model that you can still love Disney.
You don't have to let that go.
Stunning.
Actually.
Oh my gosh.
I'm just holding up'cause we're on camera.
You could watch this on YouTube.
I got a little chip christmas treeornament from Beauty and the Beast.
So cute.
And my daughter tried to claim it andI just went, I, I gave her a different

(11:44):
one and I just said absolutely not.
No.
But anyway, so that's, that is cool.
We definitely need to talk more Disney.
Um, you know, staytuned another day maybe.
But we should also talk aboutyour professional knowledge.
And I have no doubt that this intersectswith your personal explorations as well.
let's talk about regulation.

(12:04):
So regulation , talking aboutour bodies and our minds.
What, what does it mean?
How I would define it really?
Not very well.
So you're over to you.

Cheri (12:13):
Yeah.
So, and it is kind of a trickyone to define because it's.
So heavily based on people'spersonal experiences.
Um, but like in general,regulation is a broad term anyway.
Essentially it's kind of used todescribe the set of skills that we have
that allow us to be in tune with ourmind, our body, and the environment.

(12:38):
Like what's around us as welloutside of ourselves, um,
which includes other people.
And so that's like a reallycomplex relationship, you
know, when you think about it.
, and regulation can be anything fromlike our energy levels, to our
emotions, to our bodily needs.
So like, you know, if we're hungryor thirsty, um, our relationship to

(13:00):
sensory experiences, um, you know,the list goes on and it's definitely
not as straightforward as what Ithink a lot of people think it is.
It's very.
Multilayered and very individual, um,individual experiences and the way you
target it, um, not one shoe fits everyone.

Adina (13:22):
So what do you think?
What do we get wrong?
I say we, I'm using that very broadly.
So whether it's professionals whosupport kids, whether it's uh, you
know, people in the community, um, Iknow there's a lot of parents of neuro
divergent kids who listen as well.
Um, probably more professionals anda lot of us wear multiple hats too.
What do we often get wrong?
What are the misunderstandingsabout regulation?

Cheri (13:44):
Yeah, I think one of the things that has led to it
is a lot of misinformation.
So, and a lot of, um, youknow, words getting used
interchangeably and getting misused.
So, you know, a lot of people don'tactually understand what it means.
And so I actually had to go and doa lot of my own research to really.

(14:04):
Figure out and clarify, okay, wellwhat is the, all these different
terms, what do they all mean?
How, what's the relationshipbetween them all?
Um, and there's three in particular thatI hear a lot and that get misused a lot.
And that's self-regulation, emotionalregulation, and sensory regulation.

(14:26):
So they're actually all different.
They, they are not the same.
And so a lot of like programs orinformation like blogs or websites
or whatever, um, you know, you'llbe reading it and they'll, between
emotional regulation and then it willstart talking about self-regulation and
then it will jump to sensory regulation.
Sometimes with the same meaningwithout actually telling you.

(14:50):
Mm-hmm.
It actually means something different.
We're actually referring to

Adina (14:53):
something different now.
I'm gonna have to go back andcheck all of my stuff and think.
Whether I have got it right.
And you are also always, alwayswelcome to call me out if I've muddled
them up or not been clear enough.
How interesting.
Please keep going.
I'm just going, oh, oh.
And I'm,

Cheri (15:07):
and I'm sure what I'm about to explain to you, you'll be like,

Adina (15:09):
oh, okay.
I'm

Cheri (15:10):
gonna be using these terms correctly from now on.
That's the hope.
So let's pick, so, so I'm going to kindof define and clarify those three for you.
So when we talk about regulation andthe development of regulation, our
absolute end goal is self-regulation.
And so that's just the, theability to be regulated.

(15:33):
Um, so regulated could be likewe feel comfortable or we can do
the things that we need to do.
So that might be schoolwork or thatmight be, be able to sit at the
table to eat whatever that task is.
And that means being regulateddespite sensory experiences
we may be having despite.
What's happening in the environment?

(15:54):
So noises or people talking to youdespite who else is involved despite
what's happening in our bodies.
Like if we're hungry, if we needto go to the toilet and despite the
emotions we may be feeling, it's a lot,

Adina (16:09):
it's a lot to process all at one time.
And I'm gonna just have a guess andsay that for neurotypical folks, more
often than not, regulation is kindof the, there, it's, it's there and
available because all those piecesyou talked about, the sensory, the
emotional, everything else just doesn't,I, I like the term, I say flap doesn't
flap them as much as it does for us.

(16:31):
Am I, am I on base?

Cheri (16:33):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think, you know, like I was sayingbefore, it's, it's such an individual
and unique experience regulation.
Um.
I think regulation doesn't everactually finish developing.
I mean, we, as adults, we are constantlyfaced with challenges and finding
new ways to regulate ourselves.

(16:53):
You know, some tools and strategiesdon't always work forever
and we have to switch it up.
Um, and I'll, I'll chat more about,a bit later on, about the part of the
brain and actual formal development.
But for us to have sound developmentand self-regulation, so to be
regulated with all of this stuffgoing on, it assumes that we also have

(17:16):
developed our skills in the areas orall the other areas of regulation.
And so other areas of regulation caninclude sensory regulation, emotional
regulation, cognitive regulation,behavioral regulations, social regulation.
All of this is going on, and allof this makes up self-regulation.

(17:39):
So self-regulation is on top and allthese other bits and pieces, all the
other types of regulation come under it.

Adina (17:47):
It is actually much, much, much bigger than I realized.

Cheri (17:51):
It's huge.
It's huge.
And so yeah, they're, they're,they're all different.
They all play a, have a role toplay, but they're also very, very
intrinsically linked in with each other.
So it's very unlikely that onearea is going to be, um, uh, like
you have challenges in one area,you've probably got challenges
in all the areas of regulation.

(18:11):
And if something happens in one area,say sensory, like sensory regulation,
you're probably going to start see thisdomino effect and it's gonna affect
all the other areas of regulation.
So like, if we're dysregulated becausethere's too much sensory information.
It means that we're not going to beable to, um, or we might, it might
bring on a certain feeling, likeanxiety or it might bring on, um,

(18:36):
you know, a feeling of overwhelm.
So that's your emotional regulation.
There's one, I

Adina (18:40):
feel it always comes up when I, I think about this sort of thing,
garbage trucks, like noisy garbage trucksgoing past outside, especially when I'm
trying to work or record something orthink, but even just a noisy garbage
truck on a baseline of nothing else.
It makes me angry and loud motorbikes,like when people have made their
motorbike or their car like extraloud on purpose and then they go fing

(19:01):
past and like, it, it's not just likea fright or something or, you know,
it's like it's actual deep anger.

Cheri (19:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so that is a, somethinghappening in your sensory
world, your sensory regulation.

Adina (19:15):
Mm-hmm.

Cheri (19:16):
That's tipping off your emotional regulation.
And before, when you said, when I wastrying to concentrate when a garbage truck
comes along, that's cognitive regulation.

Adina (19:24):
Yeah.

Cheri (19:24):
So that's a whole new layer to throw it all off.
Yeah.
Yep.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, and so a lot of the terms doget misconstrued, and particularly
the three that I mentioned before.
So self reg, sensory and emotionalreg, but they're all different.
And so I already kind of described alittle bit about self-regulation, that
it's just kind of, it's almost likeits own umbrella term with all this

(19:47):
stuff underneath it, but I'm gonnaclarify the other two for you as well.
So, emotional regulation is when wemanage our emotions, our feelings,
and , despite those feelings or emotions,we can still do the tasks that we
need to do in our day-to-day life.
So when you are angry with like thegarbage truck for example, you are able

(20:09):
to work through that and continue working.
So that's emotional regulation.
And so, um, for kids and like adults,some of those skills that come with
emotional regulation could be beingable to identify how you feel, how
or when you respond to that emotion.
Um, using any like tools or strategiesto cope with it, as well as being

(20:32):
able to continue whatever it isthat you need to do in that moment.
So the task at hand, does that make sense?
Emotional regulation?

Adina (20:39):
It really does.
And I get, I guess this stuff is easy forme to get partly because professionally I
talk about it and interact with it on, um,I hope a clear enough way, nowhere near
as clear as you've just defined for me.
And I experience it very deeply andI've supported people in it as well.
But I guess I wanna, um, invite peoplelistening, but if you are kind of hearing

(21:01):
it and it sounds maybe academic and you'renot really getting it or feeling it, I,
I almost wanna invite everyone to tryand figure out your own, um, experience.
It might not be as extreme as mine gettingso angry at loud motorbikes, but you
know, I, I feel like even neurotypicalfolks are gonna have these moments or

(21:21):
these experiences where the regulationone area is impacting on another area.
Do you think, is that fair to say?
We still we're all human, right?

Cheri (21:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Absolutely.
It, it's something thatwe experience every day.

Adina (21:33):
Mm.

Cheri (21:34):
It is, re regulation is constant.
It is constantly there.

Adina (21:37):
Mm.

Cheri (21:38):
Um, yeah.
And I, yeah, kind of focusing onone specific example can be really
good to break down and reflect.
Okay.
What's, what's happeningin that moment for me?

Adina (21:49):
Yeah.

Cheri (21:50):
Um, and so like the last one that I haven't really explained
much is sensory regulation.
Yes.
So, um, and that's specificallyrelating to sensory experiences and
they can be internal or external.
So internal could be likeour bodily needs, like what's
happening inside our bodies.
Are we hungry, thirsty,hot, cold, pain, sick.

(22:12):
Um, so that's kind of interoceptionstuff that it goes into.
Interoceptions are linkedto sensory, um, regulation.
And then there's external, so obviouslythe sensory experiences outside our body.
So how bright it is or how loudit is, those types of things.
So for example, for a kid tryingto regulate in terms of like for

(22:35):
sensory regulation, it might mean,or it could look like, well, they're
having to do their schoolwork.
So they need cognitiveregulation to do that.
They need to be able to focusdespite everything else.
But in terms of the sensory things thatmight be happening is, um, they need
to be able to cope with how can we seethe classroom is, um, or how bright the

(22:58):
sun is shining in on their face whilethey're trying to do their schoolwork.
They might be hungry, their stomachmight be grumbling, they might have
wool and jumpers and it's really itchy.
Um, and they are sitting there thinkingabout all these things, the bright sun,
the noisy class, the itchy clothes,

Adina (23:16):
and then they got rained on in the morning and then they had the wet sticky
clothes that happened a few weeks ago.
It was like right at drop off time.
It was like this bucketing down andI was soggy and feeling really off.
So I just went home and got changed.
'cause I could,

Cheri (23:28):
yeah, kids can't.
No they can't.
And so when we've got all of that goingon, and yet we're expecting them to
sit there and write a page of writing.
Not gonna happen

Adina (23:39):
when also that is maybe already hard for them on four
levels, five levels and the emotionalcognitive, the self-judgment,
the, and then the sticky dress.
Yeah, that's one of my, it'swe wet clothes and yeah,
we icking on that together.
And even, I mean, I didn't even think howconnected that was to our conversation
today, but as we got on, if anyone'swatching the video, you can see, um,

(24:00):
the lighting I've got is very dim.
So there's just like a kind offloor lamp behind me and then
some little fairy lights going on.
Um, because I had to turn the Fluorlight off because my brain just went, we
are done with that beagle light today.
But I have the self knowledge,the self-advocacy, the self,
the control over my environmentto be able to do those things.
And the, um, you know, I shedself-judgment long ago mostly.

(24:21):
So I can just go, I couldjust turn the light off.
I don't need to have that on.
Like, these are the pieces that kids.
Humans, anyone is stillworking on developing, right?
Like what, what's that?
What's the trajectory?
What are we expecting?
Or maybe, maybe what I'm hoping you'llclarify is are we often expecting too
much of kids around this regulation piece?

Cheri (24:42):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And so, um, to kind of, I supposeit goes into more like regulation
development and brain development.
' cause that's, regulation is a partof our brain and nervous system.
That's where it comes from.
And so to kind of understand betterthat what we're asking kids to
do is unrealistic for any child,whether they're neurodivergent or

(25:04):
neurotypical, that it's unrealistic.
You need to understand the brain.
And so I'm gonna give a bit ofa, a spiel about the brain parts
of the brain in regulation and.
Some of it's development.
Um, and I do apologize and I I've triedto make it as simple as I can so that
listeners can understand, but, , it'skind of following along with a couple

(25:26):
of other, frameworks, , that arealready out there to explain the brain.
Um, so like, I think it's the triunebrain model, probably butchered that
name, but that's how I pronounce it.
Um, or like flipping your lid example.
It kind of flows along with thoseframeworks for , how the brain works.
So they describe three main parts ofthe brain that play a role in regulation.

(25:52):
And so these three parts of the brainwill switch on during different times
and during different levels of stressor different levels of regulation.
So when we're regulated, we're able todo what we need to do in the moment.
So whether that's school or work, we canattend tasks, we can cope with whatever's
going on inside and outside of our body.

(26:14):
And so the part of the brain that'sresponsible for that is the front
part of our brain, which is calledthe prefrontal cortex, or the thinking
brain, just to keep it simple.
It does all the thinking, it doesall the complex problem solving and
attention and judgment and everything.
And so, um, unsurprisingly,because it's responsible for so

(26:36):
much, it actually doesn't stopdeveloping until our mid twenties.
So when, you know, I have a lotof families, they wanna work on
attention or they wanna work onregulation, a lot of times I have
to reframe their thinking because.
A six year old's brainis not fully developed.
It's not yet ready to self-regulate.

(26:57):
For another 20 years.

Adina (26:58):
I have a feeling there's some stats, something around related to
that executive functioning prefrontalcortex development that says until
your mid twenties there are like roadskills, road, you know, regulation
skills and planning and decisionmaking and emotional regulation
too that isn't gonna be available.
Until that's develop, thatdevelopment's complete.

(27:20):
If it ever does get completed.

Cheri (27:22):
Yeah.
And I wonder too, if that's why inAmerica they get their licenses later,
do they get it later or earlier?

Adina (27:29):
I don't know.
Would Americans be like more logicalin their rule making around driving?
They just get to drink alcohol later.
Legally.

Cheri (27:37):
We, when you look at the stats for red pea PLAs and green pea PLAs, yes.
Huge difference becausethat brain development

Adina (27:45):
mm-hmm.

Cheri (27:46):
Going from late teens like, you know, 18, 16 to 18 Yeah.
Into more towards our, you know,early to mid twenties is different.

Adina (27:56):
And I'm gonna just guess complete guesswork here, but if you then looked
at the stats of like, people who firstget their license at age 17 compared
to people who first get their licenseat age 25, you're still gonna see
much better outcomes probably forthose getting their license later on.
Probably.
I'm just making that up I probably

Cheri (28:12):
assume so,

Adina (28:12):
You brought it back to the 6-year-old.
It's like, why, why on earth wouldwe expect the 6-year-old to have
these abilities to self-regulateif a 26-year-old is barely there,
where maybe a 39 and a half year old.
Yeah.
Yeah,

Cheri (28:25):
exactly.
And that was like what I was sayingbefore, like, um, I don't think it ever
regulation ever stops developing becausethe world changes around us and we have
to change with it as much as we can try.
Um, so yeah, so that's, that,that's the front part of our brain.
It's.
The biggest part of our brain thatdoes all the hard stuff, we're now
going to move down the brain andin down and in to the part that's

(28:52):
responsible for emotions and memory.
And this is the limbic system andall the emotion brain and the limbic
system is actually made up of severaldifferent other parts, but I'm not going
to go into details or explain them.
Um, maybe a different time and place.
But, um, I think for nowwe don't really have to.

(29:12):
So when a child or anyone isdysregulated or becoming dysregulated,
the front part of the brain, sothe thinking brain switches off and
the limbic system takes control.
It takes over.
And like this is when we start tosee kids start to get emotional.
They seem unreasonable.
They're screaming, they're yelling.

(29:33):
They are.
Doing this for one of two reasons, or aperson doesn't have to be a child, but a
person is doing it for one of two reasons.
One is that our thinkingbrain isn't, isn't working.
It's, it's switched off.
So it's not going to be able to problemsolve the, that part of the brain is gone.
They can't answer questions,they can't problem solve.
And two, because of this, theemotion brain is in control.

(29:57):
So the responses and behavior you'llsee will be based on emotions.
It will be based on anger,fear, or even good feelings.
Like when they're excited.
Like some kids, you can't calm down'cause they're so excited, they're elated.
And so that's what's happening whenthe emotion brain is in control.
So that's when we are dysregulated.

(30:19):
But when we see.
Very challenging behaviors or reallyextreme moments of dysregulation.
It's more, not so much dysregulation,but it's more being distressed.
And, and it's different to beingdysregulated because when we are

(30:39):
distressed, our mind and our bodythink that we are in serious danger
that something is going to hurt us.
And I'm going to assume that vast majorityof people kind of know the fight, flight,
freeze response in our nervous system.
So,, our brain perceives a threat or thatwe're in danger and all of our energy

(31:00):
and all of our brain power goes intopreparing us to either run so flight,
fight the threat, so fight or we freeze.
, and sometimes that can be likedisassociating from the outside world.
We go in into ourselves.
And so this response, the flight,fight, freeze response is the result
of the most bottom part of our brain,which is at the back here, just

(31:23):
before our neck called the brainstem.
And this is the survival brain.
And it has one simplejob, as you can imagine.
It is to survive.
It is to stay alive.
And so when that brain kicks in, when weare just that part of the brain kicks in,
when we are distressed, the emotion brain,the thinking brain, they've tapped out.
They're gone.

(31:43):
And so when a child is distressed, nothingelse matters, apart from protecting
themselves, trying to stay safe.
And that might look like being able toget away from the situational person.
So like absconding, um, or if they'reperceiving something as a threat, they
might attack, they might attack theperson or start destroying things.

(32:07):
or another instance, so like, kind ofmore like the freeze response is they
might go completely into themselves.
and they don't really respondto what people are saying, what
they, what they're hearing.
They're disassociating, sothat's when we are distressed.
So they're kind of the three parts ofthe brain that play a role in regulation.

(32:27):
And so, and I said I'd come back to thefront part of the brain, our thinking
brain, another one of its jobs on top ofeverything else that we discussed about.
It also has to hold space and monitorthe other two parts of the brain, the
emotion brain, and the survival brain.
So it is constantly checkingitself, how am I feeling?

(32:48):
Am I in, am I in danger?
And responding to that.
Just a lot.
Like that's a lot.

Adina (32:55):
That's interesting

Cheri (32:56):
to process.

Adina (32:57):
Yeah.
And they've actually about a partof the brain as such, looking
after what the other bits are upto and probably often, very often
misinterpreting signals as well.

Cheri (33:07):
Yeah.
And, and so when we think about,we're teach, trying to teach kids
to self-regulate all of those partsof the brain, all of its jobs.
We're expecting a child to beable to do that, but their brain
hasn't finished developing.
It's impossible.

Adina (33:23):
It's so, so, so, so helpful to hear this breakdown.
Um, I will say my daughter is in kindyand at their school, they, I don't
know if it's a specific program or abook or something, but they've actually
been learning a version of this.
And so she came home talking about.
I, I just said something randomabout, I remembered something.
She said, oh, it's your elephant brain.

(33:45):
And so they're learning about theparts of the brain and what they do,
and they're obviously relating it toanimals, but I thought that is so cool.
So these five and six year oldsare learning this really meta
understanding about how they exist.
Yeah.
That might be useful, right?
Yeah.

Cheri (34:02):
Yeah.
And, and to extend on that, it reallyshould be also educating the parents.

Adina (34:07):
Correct.
And that's what we're here fortoday here, but I would love
maybe school will do that.
In fact, tomorrow as we arerecording, is when we actually
have parent teacher interviews.
So, um, there's my little noteto self is to actually ask the
teacher what is, you know, whereare these resources coming from?
Because Absolutely.
That would be so powerful tokeep that connection going.
Um, you know, between school and home.

(34:28):
I'm not saying the school's notdoing a good job of communication.
They're doing great.
They're doing the best,but, um, whatever this is.
There's something really, there's somereally good resources and I will say,
we're gonna talk about some of yourresources as well, that you're putting
out, which are going to be so, so useful.
How good for us to just be talkingabout this and then to include

(34:49):
the kids in the conversation.
I'm so hope hopeful for these kids.

Cheri (34:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, I, I workin a lot of schools too.
They have, um, what do they call it?
Uh, a program project mm-hmm.
Across the entire school about, um, Iknow like it's a lot to do with like
mindfulness and knowing what you need.
Mm-hmm.
I get what they actually call the,it's like something project, okay.

(35:16):
Actually forget the name, but likebeing able to, you know, coming from
that mental health regulation, nervoussystem regulation point of view.
Having that as a daily thing tocheck in is absolutely incredible.
Like that is what we need.

Adina (35:33):
Yes.
I mean, I'm thinkingwhat's the closest I got?
I got like Healthy Harold, which I thinkhe's still hanging around that, that
cute giraffe or kind of creepy giraffe.
Um, but that was Healthy bodyreally was just healthy body.
I don't think there was any mental healththere and I'm pretty sure Healthy Harold
these days does talk about mental health.

Cheri (35:50):
Yeah.
I don't, you know, I don't even recallanything growing up, to be honest.

Adina (35:54):
Yeah,

Cheri (35:54):
okay.
I definitely not in primary school.
Yeah.

Adina (35:58):
There's cool stuff happening and you are part of it, which is awesome.
So let's, okay, let's think about parents.
Like a lot of people listening eitherare parents of neurodivergent kids, um,
and a lot of people are professionalswho are working with families.
What.
What can we do?
What can we as professionals do as we'reconnecting with families, caregivers,
parents, um, what's the best thatwe can do to support them around

(36:22):
this regulation and co-regulation?

Cheri (36:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, as professionals, we have such ahuge role to play and, you know, we are
working with probably the most vulnerablefamilies who really need that support.
Um, and it can be really tricky tonavigate, like it's overwhelming
as a health professional.
Imagine how families feelwhen we talk about regulation.
So I'm gonna chat about parent education,simplifying how you address regulation

(36:49):
with kids and families as a professional.
And I'm gonna talk a little bit about,um, tools versus strategies as well.
So I think one of the biggestthings that we can do is educate
and coach parents that we work with.
Helping parents to realize andunderstand what's actually happening
for their kids on the level that theirkids actually have no control over it.

(37:13):
So when we've got that thinking brainor survival brain switched on, the kids
don't actually have control over that.
And it can be really eyeopeningfor parents to realize that, that
they're not doing it on purpose.
It's not a choice.
It is something that is naturallyhappening, but maybe just for some
neuro divergent brains, it's a littlebit, it's probably more sensitive.

Adina (37:35):
I feel like we just need to, just sit on that for a moment and just all
remember, which I don't know, this islike our frontal cortex in the moment
needs to remind ourselves of this fact.
This is not a choice.
A kid is not choosing to notlisten or to act up or, you
know, any, uh, so, so important.

Cheri (37:54):
Yep.
And, and so I do really enjoy agood parent coaching session and I
love educating people always have,always just sharing my knowledge and
being able to connect on that level.
But what I often do with parents is Isit down with them and we analyze just
one specific example of dysregulationthat they've had with their child.

(38:16):
And getting parents really curious aboutwhat's happening for their kid in the
moment, but as well, what has led to thatup to that point in time, so across the
day or morning or whatever it may be.
And so choosing just one activity ormaybe just one part of a kid's routine
to focus on first can be a reallyhelpful way for us professionals

(38:38):
to address regulation goals.
Otherwise, if we're trying to addressregulation across an entire day.
Like there are too many things happening.
There's too many people involved,too many sensory experiences.
There's too many environmentalthings to consider.
Are they at school?
Is it at home?
It's really unrealistic, isn't it?
We're not gonna achieve those goalsif we are thinking about it across an

(39:01):
entire day and it's overwhelming even forprofessionals, like that's overwhelming.
But if we can focus on just one thing, soit might be like, okay, my child struggles
getting in the car in the morning to goto school, or when we come home after
school, they just seem to kind of explode.
So focusing on just one thing to supportand build the skills with the family,

(39:24):
so the parents and the child, it isgoing to allow us to then transfer
and generalize those skills to otheractivities and other times of day.
And it's going to be lessdemand on the parent as well.
So.
If we're like, oh, you know, um, trydeep pressure when they're angry.
Well, that can happen atany point in time, can't it?

(39:46):
And it's like constantly in theback of their minds, are they angry?
Do I need to be doing this now?
Like when do I do it?
Like, am I doing it right?
Whereas if we know, okay, when theyget home after school, we are going
to do these activities, these deeppressure activities, these sensory
calming activities, it's kind ofgives a little bit more scaffolding
and it's not so overwhelming.

(40:07):
And the parents aren'tconstantly thinking, oh, are
they feeling angry or frustrated?
Do I need to start implementing something?
So

Adina (40:13):
simplifying part of it is getting so specific to the challenge that then
you go, okay, here's one solution.
And that often can, or, or a thing to try.
That problem solving can thenapply to many other situations.
So you're skill building, but withone very specific starting point.
And it's proactive as well.
It's like these thingsaren't gonna hurt a kid.

(40:34):
If a kid didn't need deep pressure asmuch, but they don't mind it, that's cool.
But if they need it, it'sgonna be helpful, right?
Yeah,

Cheri (40:41):
exactly.
Yep.

Adina (40:43):
Yeah,

Cheri (40:43):
and, and yeah.
And so that's what I try and dois get really, really specific
and like when we write goals, theyshould also be specific as well.
So to an actual example, another thingI like to clarify, particularly with
families is tools versus strategies.
And these get used interchangeablyas well, which is fine, but I

(41:04):
view them quite differently.
And so the way that I say it is,tools are materialistic things.
They're fit.
I got my, all my fidgets on mytable, but fidgets, and then you've
got strategies and strategies are,you know, methods or processes or
ideas that we kind of implement.

(41:25):
So, um, you know, deep breathing,you know, it is a kind of a process
or a method that we implement.
And so often I see way toomuch weight put onto tools.
So there's a heavy reliance on tools.
And so it will be like adultsbeing like, oh, you're angry.
Here's your fidgets.
And expecting the child to instantlybe calmer and know how to use

(41:47):
it, no, doesn't work like that.
Where's the co-regulation?

Adina (41:51):
And there's, can you sit with me and fidget with your
fidget while I fidget with mine?
Or can we do it together?
Or any of that.

Cheri (41:59):
There's, there's no connection.
It's like, here you go.
Use this.
That's, and, and, and again, itcomes back to when we think about
which brains are currently activated.
So if it's now motion brain, it can'tthink and process and problem solve
it need that, that child's emotion,brain needs an adult to help it.

(42:20):
So, and that, and that's whyco-regulation is really important
and that's why it's important thatwe have a good variety of tools.
So maybe some physical things andstrategies and especially 'cause
we can't always access our tools.
So I, I hear a lot, um, showersand baths are really relaxing
when we're out in the community.
We don't have access to a shower,you know, shower being a tool.

(42:43):
So then what are some strategieswhen we're out and about, can we
implement The other thing, when wetalk about tools and strategies.
Is when we implement them.
So is it proactive or reactive?
So if we implement something ahead oftime to maintain kind of what you were
saying before, to maintain regulationor when a child starts to become a bit

(43:05):
dysregulated, that's been proactive.
Reactive strategies are whenit's kind of almost too late.
So we are doing it after the fact.
They are dysregulated, they arehaving a really big feeling right now.
What can I do?
So, and it's important to know,'cause some tools and strategies will
work at better times than others.
So like, you know, deep breathingprobably isn't gonna work when we're

(43:30):
with our emotion or survival brain.
It's not gonna work.
It's kind of almost gone, youknow, too far past the point.
Breathing exercises to rely quite heavilyon our front brain, on our thinking
brain, because we, I mean, e everyonekind of influence a little bit different,
but you know, you have to breathe ina certain amount of time, hold it,
breathe it out a certain amount of time.

(43:50):
Am I breathing inthrough my mouth, my nose?
Which part is it quick?
Is it slow?

Adina (43:54):
Is it flower breathing, square breathing?
Any of like, what, what are the rules?

Cheri (43:58):
Yeah, like I know when I do deep breathing exercises,
I have to really concentrate.
It's hard for my brain to focus on it.
So if I'm doing that, when I.
My, if I'm like heavily in myemotion brain, like my emotion
brain has well and truly taken over,that's probably not gonna work.
I probably don't have the attention andthe ability to, to attend to breathing in

(44:22):
that moment, let alone my survival brain.
I'm gone.
It's not gonna happen ifmy survival brain is there.
It, it just wants to escape.
So those are some things thatprofessionals can do to support
regulation with families comingfrom a more, um, co-regulation model
'cause we're kind of targeting parentswhen we talk about co-regulation.
I'll jump into the next step of that.

(44:44):
Phase of that I suppose, is what canparents do to help their kids regulate?
And, you know, I'll talk abit more about co-regulation.
So, co-regulation is when we havemore than one person involved in
maintaining a state that's justright for whatever we are doing.
So a co-regulation could beyour husband or a friend.

(45:07):
And for kids, normally that's theirgrandparent, their mom, their dad,
sometimes health professional,like co-regulation, we're
helping regulate in the moment.
And co-regulation is what achild's regulation is based on.
It's what their development stems from.
Because a caregivers regulationis the very first exposure a

(45:30):
child has to what regulation is.

Adina (45:33):
So this is the teaching, isn't it?
The modeling and living it together?

Cheri (45:38):
Yep.
So it, it can be a hard pill toswallow for some parents that.
Whatever you do, however youregulate, your child is watching.
They are listening.
They are taking that in, and theirregulation is going to be, um, based
on that, whatever they're being exposedto what, and so that's why parents

(46:01):
need to address their own regulationneeds because if the parent isn't
regulated, how are they gonna help?
How are you gonna help your kid?
So, you know, being able to addressyour own sensory needs and your
own bodily needs, your emotions.
If you need some connection froma partner or a friend, you still

(46:21):
need to look after yourself and.
It's really, really importantand it's a good opportunity for
kids to see you do strategies.
Don't, don't feel like you have to hideit or I have to hide that I'm angry.
I'm gonna go step into the otherroom while I scream into my pillow.
If you have some strategies thatare really good and work for you,

(46:42):
it's okay for your kid to see that.
It's okay for you to say, I'mreally angry at what you did.
I need five seconds to go havea sip of my coffee or something.
I just need to calm down.
It's okay to show that becausethat, that, that's like connecting.
That's you being authentic.
You're not hiding yourself from yourkid, and they're like, oh, this is

(47:06):
something I can do when I'm angry, Ican tell mom, I need five minutes to
go have a favorite snack or something.
So it's like that role modeling and.
These are the type of things I, Iaddress quite a lot in my program.
Charge your Mind becauseco-regulation is so important and
it's something that not really anyother regulation programs address.

(47:28):
They all target the kid.
The kid has to learn this.
Mm-hmm.
They develop their skills and skills inthis, but there's no parent component.
There's no, well, amazing.
What's mom and dad doing?
Uh, what they they're they'rethe one they're stuck too.
Yeah.
It's not just a kid that's stuck.
Mom and dad need help as well.
That's

Adina (47:45):
so powerful and so needed.
Um, I think I need, I I will needyour Charge Your Mind program.
I do.
And I'm gonna offer a story here.
It's very raw 'cause it was yesterday.
And, and what I wanna share here isthat like, it highlights what you were
saying and I hope that it also sharesthe point that I'm sure you agree with,
which is none of this is to say thatany of us parents should have any.

(48:08):
Um, kind of self-judgment orguilt when we get it wrong.
'cause we are gonna get itwrong 'cause we are human.
Am I gonna admit I got it wrongand then it's the repair of that.
I think that really matters.
I'm giving myself grace here.
I hope, I hope that's correct.
But what happened was, so my uh, bigkid is nearly six and my little kid is
one and a half and they get on so well.
They love each other and it's gorgeous.

(48:30):
But there's also kid-likeexuberance that gets in the way
sometimes of things going well.
And so little kid, they lovestealing my water bottle.
It's their favorite thing.
So whatever I've decided ismy water bottle that day and
I have a few, it's theirs.
So whatever.
Um, and uh, it was quite a heavy oneand little one was holding it, drinking
from it, big kid, got really excitedabout something else, physically just

(48:52):
was like not in control of that moment.
Kind of had a, grabbed it, reachedfor it or did a movement, whatever.
She caused the water bottle to fall on.
Little one's toe.
And that's a heavy water bottle now.
In that moment, I was really worried,'cause I knew that would be a big owie.
So I got angry and I said, so I'm tryingto think what I even said to my big kid.

(49:13):
Like I, I'm, I'm really not proud ofthis, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm
gonna say it like, I teach this stuffall the time and I get it wrong.
And I got, I got really like high arousaland I just said something like, um,
you know, I told you not to grab it.
Now she's hurt her toes.
Something like that.
I just got really, like, I,I'm so unpro of what I did.
Um, and then I said she needs an icepack and big kid, sad and remorseful.

(49:36):
Went and got the ice pack andbrought it over and then went
off and got very sad on her own.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
Oh, what about, so I wasa little kid, you know.
Ice pack on toe.
She was okay.
She was actually okay.
Toe is fine.
And then I went and addressedmyself and I went, oh, okay.
I just had a huge angry response.
None of it was her fault.
I put her into shame now because she'sthinking that she did something wrong.

(50:00):
Anyway, so we rep repaired andwe have a lot of very, very
open discussions about emotions.
Partly it's, you know, thespeechy and me coming through
into my mum role, um, very much.
And, and so we talked about it andone of the things we talked about
was, one thing she's working on isgiving people a little bit more space.
And that was kind of how it allgot triggered in the first place.

(50:21):
It was part of a thing she's practicing.
That's hard for her.
And I said, A thing I'm practicingthat's hard for me is sometimes I
get really angry really quickly, butactually it's because I'm worried.
And then I don't control that.
And then I just saythings in an angry way.
And she said, yeah.
And I said, I need to practice that.
And she said, yeah,yeah, there's my story.

(50:41):
But like, this is mytherapy session, Cheri.

Cheri (50:44):
But like, for you to like reflect on that, for you to be like, to identify
kind of what your response is in amoment of stress, like that's huge.
That's like a huge self-awarenessstep and, and something that my
program kind of talks about is whatcaregiver's regulation style is.

Adina (51:04):
Mm-hmm.

Cheri (51:06):
Based on, um, how a caregiver what their regulation is.

Adina (51:12):
Mm-hmm.

Cheri (51:13):
In a moment of dysregulation
. It's a questionnaire and you get allocated a type of animal.
Ooh.

Adina (51:19):
I really wanna do this.
This is, so I need this.
You can hear it.
I need it.
Like I teach it, I live it.
I think it, and I, I struggle with itsometimes because this is hard stuff.
This is, we're always gonnabe working on it, aren't we?

Cheri (51:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and yeah.
And so, so yeah, your regulation,but it also, the other factor
that it takes into account is yourresponse to moments of dysregulation.
We have a therapy dog, anostrich, a bear, and a kangaroo.
So there are four parentregulation styles.
I won't talk too much about them.

(51:51):
You'll have to followalong with my program.
If you wanna know more about it,

Adina (51:54):
I will.
And, and I will be sharing linksin the show notes as well, so
anyone can go and check it out.

Cheri (51:59):
Um, but yeah, it, it's really important to be able to
know what your default setting is.
So how do you look after yourregulation in the moment of
stress or when dysregulation isoccurring for you or someone else?
And what is your response to other peopleor your child, for example, like, and
that's like some really deep thinkingand you know, you have to be very honest

(52:22):
with yourself because I, I feel likea lot of parents do feel shame and
guilt when they do the questionnaireand when they think about it.
Um, some of 'em don't reallywanna share it with me.
I'm like, totally judgment freezone, but you're only human and you
can't get it right all the time.

Adina (52:38):
And I hope that me sharing that, like that was my very specific choice.
I was like, go, do I say it?
Do I not say it?
Do I, I know there's a lot of peoplelike listening to this, but, um,
because I want everyone to know, like.
We all mess it up sometimesthat, that and putting the shame.
Yeah, I'm feeling a little bit of it, butI'm also just moving through it, you know?
We just have it and thenwe, we, what do we do next?

(52:59):
Let's go.
Yeah.

Cheri (53:00):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And like having that real open,honest discussion with your big kid,
like, which is like fantastic becauseit's not like you're ignoring it.
It's not like you are, um,accepting it and moving on.
You just have to push through it.
It's very much like, okay.
And it's like that repair stage, isn't it?
Like this is what's happened.

(53:22):
I didn't mean it, it's because it camefrom this other feeling I was having.
I was angry because I was worried.
Um, which is like a huge, hugething to have that reflection
and that ability to reflect.

Adina (53:35):
It's so, obviously very raw for me, but at the same time, it's so important.
This is the work.
We are all doing the work.
And I think then professionals, um,whether you're parents or not, and
if you are your, if you are a parentyourself and a professional, there
might be extra layers of challengebecause things that you experience in
your home or things that sort of showup with your own parenting might come

(53:58):
into play in your professional role.
That can be an interestinglayer to just examine, I think.
Not, not ignore, just, just notice.
Um, but what do you think,what can professionals do when
they're supporting kids in themoment in their therapy sessions?
Let's say things escalate,challenging behaviors, tricky,
, distress behaviors come out.

(54:18):
What can professionals doto regulate or co-regulate?

Cheri (54:22):
Yeah, I think.
Checking in with yourself, is definitelyreally important and making sure
that you can cope with the situation.
Because remember that, whatever you do,, is going to impact that relationship and
that rapport that you have with the child.
So first things first.
Do you have the capacity to help?
Right now, it's really important to knowwhat your limits are and that if need

(54:44):
be, it is okay to end your session early.
It is okay to say, I am not coping.
The child's not coping.
We are gonna finish.

Adina (54:53):
I'm just clapping here.
Like, I've gotta just say it.
'cause some people will belistening, not watching.
Um, wow.
And that is, it's on somany layers, isn't it?
It's that advocacy, the modelingof advocacy, the modeling
of that reflective approach.

Cheri (55:07):
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
And like I, I've done it several times.
It's just gotten to a point where Ino longer can help and I'm starting
to get dysregulated myself, and I'vebeen like, we're gonna have to finish.
, you need to kind of rebalance.
The child needs to rebalance.
Um, because as professionals,like, but we are human as well.

(55:27):
We have our own needs.
And especially if we're neurodivergent,you know, we have to take a little
bit more extra care of lookingafter ourselves we have maybe some
sensory sensitivities on top of it.
So we've got a childscreaming and yelling.
It might be way too much for us to handle.
It's also really important to knowwhat's dysregulation and what's distress.

(55:48):
So is the child dysregulatedor is it distress?
If it's distress?
So when their survival brain iskicking in, that child needs safety.
That probably means they need to leave.
They, they are trying to fight you.
They're trying to run away.
So flight or they might be justcompletely disassociating, so they

(56:11):
probably need to go home or they mayneed mom or dad, or maybe they need
the iPad, whatever they need to safe.
And it's important to know thatif they're distressed as a health
professional, it is not a time tointroduce regulation strategies.
Yeah.
Because that survival brain does not care.
It is just trying to stay alive.

Adina (56:33):
Mm-hmm.
Can I just take a little sidebar,totally interrupting sidebar, which
is just, you mentioned the iPad.
I don't wanna move on from it too quickbecause it's so important to notice.
Um, in many cases, whether it'sin the home or, you know, it can
be in professional settings too.
It, the removal of a devicecould be a punishment for bad
behavior, and that is the total.

(56:53):
Antithesis of how we're saying this bad.
Um, you know, air quotes bad behavior.
This bad behavior is completeout of control, not the child's
fault, distress or dysregulation.
And sometimes for some kids insome settings, that time on the
device is the one thing that theywould've needed to actually regulate.

Cheri (57:14):
Yeah.
And screen time is a whole, that isa whole bucket of information itself.
Maybe we talk about that another time.
'cause that's a big, I think we mightneed to because it, it, it is its whole
thing when we talk about screen time andthere's a lot of, um, different opinions
out there around screen time and a lotof people are very, um, loud about it.

(57:37):
Um, which can be hard forneurodivergent, you know, kids in that.
Because their brains work differently,so they process screens differently.
It may not be the sameas, you know, other kids.
Sorry, I'm completely

Adina (57:50):
sidebar you, but it is such an important one.
No, that's fine.
I think, I think we need to revisit this.
Um, yeah, sorry.
So you were saying like, you know,we need to sometimes just, just stop.
It's not the time to teachstrategies, it's not the time to
keep the session going sometimes.

Cheri (58:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so yeah, recognizing when it'sdistress, if they're dysregulated.
I mean, dysregulation canbe on different levels.
It's not as clear cut asdysregulated, and then distress like
dysregulation kind of builds up.
Um, there are going to be some strategiesthat work better than others, um,

(58:25):
but in all instances, if they aredysregulated, reducing the demands, so
kind of removing any pressure on them.
Reducing your language andquestions because remember, our
emotion brain has kicked in.
So the inside part ofour brain has kicked in.
Our thinking brain can'tcomprehend and answer questions.
Um, and it's okay to just sit therewith them as long as if you're there,

(58:50):
as long as if you are present andyou are there for when they need you.
Um, and you might sit there and maybeif they're not too dysregulated, you
might role model some strategies andtools that they are familiar with
that you've already practiced and, um,worked on when they've been regulated.
So again, not introducing anything newand no demand that they have to do it.

(59:12):
It's just you doing, just you there.
Present role modeling, co-regulating.
And you know, I, I did this the otherday actually, it was a telehealth
session and I had one of my kiddos.
After school complete meltdown.
And I sat there as they had theirmeltdown for about five, 10 minutes.

(59:33):
I was just there ready for when they wereand when they were ready, we worked out
that they were hungry and I was like,oh, I think maybe we should have a snack.
Maybe we can have a snackbefore we do anything else.
So powerful.

Adina (59:45):
I have a question for you.
Yep.
A very, like your personal moment in that.
How did you feel while youwere sitting there next to that
dysregulated child and what didyou do for yourself in that moment?

Cheri (59:59):
Yeah, so I guess it was a little bit different 'cause it was
online, so it was a telehealth session.
So, um, you can mute.

Adina (01:00:05):
I didn't, I didn't mute them.
I'm just saying it's available.
Turn the volume down, go on, keep

Cheri (01:00:10):
going.
But, um, I, I think, you know, itdid offer me some of that space that
perhaps I could, could have needed.
Um, you know, end of the day everyone'stired, kids and me were tired.
Um, but also I, I know my clients really,really well and I knew, okay, something's
one of these basic needs isn't being met.

(01:00:31):
And I knew that.
And so I just had to wait until that.
It was a time that emotion brainwas slowing down and the thinking
brain was kicking back in again.
Um, for us to figure out, okay,what's actually happening?
Because if I had have asked,actually I'm pretty sure actually
I did ask when the emotion brainwas kicked in, oh, are you hungry?

(01:00:53):
I'm pretty sure I got a very loud screamy.
No, I'm not.
But they were, and I had an inklingthat they were, wasn't the time to
ask the question, but that's okay.
I waited, I sat with them.
I was there when they were ready for meand when they were there ready for me.
I think I'm hungry.
Yeah, that's okay.

Adina (01:01:12):
Um, I think I'm just noticing as well, this thought popping up, it's
like if the child is a PDA, even moreso, like that moment where we, the
outside people suggest a strategy oran idea for them to try, it's gonna
be a, like, no, that's terrible idea.
But letting them figure it outwhen they're ready to will be
like, oh, okay, I'll do the thing.

Cheri (01:01:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And definitely for like PDAEkids, um, that need that autonomy
and that drive for autonomy.
Um, yeah.
And so it, it can be just powerful justsitting there and just for them to know.
I'm here, I'm ready.
I see you.
I hear you.
What do you need from me?

(01:01:53):
It can be so powerful and it feels a bit,can be feel a bit odd at first 'cause like
you feel like you're sitting there notdoing anything and you're like, might be
panicking, oh my God, like what do I do?
But it's okay to just sitthere with them in the moment.
It's okay.

Adina (01:02:06):
And I feel like this is where the connection with the parents and,
you know, really sharing the strategiesand maybe, I don't know what you did
in that moment, but, um, when I've hadsimilar cases like come up as with with
telehealth version of it, I've been ableto text the parent just little subtle text
to go, this is what I'm doing and why.
Um, a little bit harder whenyou're in a room in the moment
together to kind of do that.

(01:02:27):
But it's possible.
But even if it's that longer termrelationship where there's an
understanding that, you know, when thishappens, this is what we're gonna do.
Um, I think earlier career professionals.
Struggle, and I've seen this come upwhere it comes to this question of like,
oh, but the parent might think I'm justplaying with a child as another way.
It shows up where they think, oh, but theparent judging me for not, not doing work.

(01:02:50):
Like the, the sittingwhile there's a meltdown.
They might be judged for not doing work,but that that's not the whole picture.

Cheri (01:02:58):
Yeah.
Communicate.
There's so much more going on and I thinksometimes too, addressing stuff like that
in the moment, it's not the right time.
Mm-hmm.
You've got also got the kid there.
Do they actually need to belistening to what you're explaining?
Like I'm sure that like ifsomeone did that to us, we're
like, I'm sitting right here.
Why are you talking tome as if I'm not here?

Adina (01:03:17):
Yeah.
I feel like as well, servicedelivery service model question is.
This is why I so strongly advocate, andI know you do this, is, is for like,
just parent sessions or, you know,at least communication, but actually
having sessions sometimes just withthe caregivers or just with the adults
around the child is so important.

Cheri (01:03:36):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, you know, even being liketo the parent theme of session,
oh, I'm gonna flick you a bitof an email, , just about today.
, so just keep your eye on the emailtonight and then explain it in the
email then, or, you know, and thenoffer, would you like to discuss it
further or do you feel like this issomething you need more support with?
Um, and it's hard though to feel likeyou always have to justify yourself.

(01:04:01):
Like it's hard.
That's a lot of social pressure on us asprofessionals, , to give yourself grace.
You are human.
Sometimes we make mistakes, that's fine.
But yeah, it, it, it can be.
It can be hard for us as well.
And I think sometimes parents forget that.

Adina (01:04:19):
I feel like that's where also longer term relationships are so
powerful, we can't always have them.
And there's so many reasons why.
But you know, when you have thistherapeutic relationship that goes over
a while, just the same as you buildthat connection with the kid, it's,
you build that connection with thefamily that shared understanding, you
feel less likely to submit to that, um,that sense of pressure, whether it's
real or imagined or perceived or, youknow, a worry comes from a worry maybe.

(01:04:43):
It's so important to just be reallyclear about the how you work, the
why you work before the session,during where it's appropriate after.
The, the script you gave are reallyhelpful, I think, like how you actually
communicate that with families.
Yeah.
That's brilliant.
Is there anything else that we haven'treally touched on around , the service
level of how we can support theregulation of kids and the co-regulation.

Cheri (01:05:07):
Yeah.
So, um, kind of that biggerlevel thinking, so structuring,
um, your schedules, your days,your weeks, that type of thing.
Um, and that's really hard to havethat discussion with your employer.
Um, especially new grads, new, I knownew grads sometimes can feel like

(01:05:28):
they don't have that voice yet, likethey, oh, like, who am I to say that
I can't, you know, have my schedulelike that because I'm only new.
I've never tried it before.
So it's really important to betrue to yourself and be like,
actually, I am struggling with these.
Certain clients or something,it's okay to get help.
It, you know, people don'tknow unless you, you tell them.

(01:05:51):
Um, you know, and thathappened to me as a new grad.
They, especially being a peoplepleaser, I pushed through things when
they could've happened differently.
So just a simple scheduling change,so not having certain clients back
to back and that type of thing.
Um, and so when I became a teamleader in one of my other jobs, one

(01:06:13):
of the things I did do was implementa bit of a traffic light system where
therapists gave a color to their clients.
And so it was completely up to thetherapist to assign those colors.
So I wasn't telling them, oh no,that's a hard client, or that's an
easy client because every therapistis different, different strengths,
different areas for growth.
So every therapist did it themselvesand that allowed us to look at their.

(01:06:39):
Calendar on a daily,weekly, fortnightly basis.
So, um, and in general, so like,oh man, you have like half of the
clients you've marked as like red.
Like if that's the case,you're going to burn out.
You are going to hit a pointwhere you can't cope anymore.
So being able to have a nice mixof clients that a therapist finds

(01:07:00):
are probably a little bit morestraightforward, a little bit more,
um, easier, I don't know what otherterm to use, but easier, um, as well
as some that are challenging as wellbecause we still need to learn and grow.
Um,

Adina (01:07:13):
I think that's so important.
It's the.
The permission to self-advocate becauseif you yourself are not, okay, well,
let's just say, okay, to be an umbrellaterm for all these kinds of regulation
we've been talking about, you willnot do a great job for your clients.
And so if that means dropping downa day or shifting the spread of your

(01:07:34):
client hours to do, you know, less eachday or have a bigger break, whatever
that is, like talking to your employer.
If you are employed or if you'reself-employed, do this for yourself.
It's essential.
And if the, if employer does notunderstand what you're asking
for or open up that conversation,you need to find a new job.

(01:07:56):
That's a hard truth, butlike you will burn out.
Right.
We, we've seen it.
Yep.
We've probably lived it.
Sure have.

Cheri (01:08:03):
And yeah.
And you know.
I, I had the luxury of being ableto chop and change what my schedule
looked like and to find my just right.
And I've now been sitting with thatfor quite a few years because I had the
luxury of an employer of, um, being,they were super flexible and allowed me

(01:08:26):
to do, had my calendar however I wanted.
And so because of that, I wasable to find the right fit for me.
And so I think it's really importantfor, you know, managers, team
leaders, um, and businesses to,to be flexible for their staff.
You know, if someone says that they wantto do, you know, um, extra clients on

(01:08:49):
that day, give them benefit of the doubtthat they, they know themselves best.
You don't know them, you don'tknow how they experience things.
Give them the benefit of the doubt.
Okay?
They are the expert of themselves,they're allowed to do that.
And if it doesn't like change it, youknow, it's not that big of a deal.
Um, it might be a pain to reschedule somepeople, but in the long run, you know,

(01:09:13):
how else are you gonna know if it works

Adina (01:09:15):
unless you try.
And what's the bigger pain?
Like you, yourself, the grownup having ameltdown or, you know, just having a few
back and forths to fix up the calendar and

Cheri (01:09:24):
or even like emergency leave because you burnt out and
you have to take three weeks off.
Yes.

Adina (01:09:28):
Yeah.

Cheri (01:09:29):
As a, you know, uh, a manager, what would you prefer?
Would you prefer to try somethingthat may or may not work or that your
employee is probably gonna be burntout in a month's time and who knows?
They may even leave that job because?
The expectations you're placingon them are unrealistic.

Adina (01:09:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And look, I'm gonna just throw in ashameless plug for my other business
here, is that if you're self-employedand you're neurodivergent and you're
struggling to figure out what this issupposed to look like for you, this
is exactly what I do in neurodivergentbusiness coaching and consulting.
Honestly, we've shifted from, it'sstill the same topic that we've shifted

(01:10:06):
from the regulation for kids to going,it's the same concepts for us grownups.
And we're zooming out to like, how dowe ensure that we ourselves are okay?
And.
That is so important.
It's the same concepts, but we justhave to apply it in our grownup world.
So if I can help you on abusiness level, I'm gonna pop
my own link into the show notes.

(01:10:27):
Um, and before we wrap upwith Cheri, because I know, I
know we could just keep going.
So first thing I'm gonna put it outthere is if anyone has any thread of what
we've talked about today and you wantus to go and chat about it more, just
send me an email and, um, we can do it.
Absolutely.
I'd love to.
If you wanna, um, you know, I justthink there's, there's so many

(01:10:48):
different directions we could go.
Is there anything that we've missed,or anything you wanna highlight or
re-highlight around the ideas ofregulation, co-regulation, um, and
especially please do share the resourcesthat you're creating and you've been
creating that are just so flippant useful.
I can't wait to get my head intoit because I, I clearly need it.

(01:11:10):
What else, what else can we doto keep this learning going?

Cheri (01:11:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's so many great resources out there.
A few different books and things.
The whole brain child is one thatI often recommend to families.
If you've got the time andspace to read a full book,
, I do have resources also on,on my website, so I've got
one called Regulation Rescue.
So it gives a bit of astep-by-step process of what to

(01:11:35):
do in terms of dysregulation.
So really simple.
Free,

Adina (01:11:39):
all of these links are gonna be in the show notes.
Keep going.
What else have you got?
, Cheri: and I've also got some different groups, so I do run
some parent groups as well.
So talking a lot about whatwe've talked about today.
Also has a lot from my program.
Charge Your Mind.
So I'm one of the co-developers.
It's not just me.
, Hannah is my co-developer.
So charge your Mind if all hasgone to plan will be available by

(01:12:02):
the time this podcast comes out.
So fingers crossed it is.
I hope so.
And that's gonna be, I'llsay that's like kind of.
End of April-ish.
And regardless whether it's fully readyor not, um, we're gonna have a link in the
show notes and you can go and learn more.
Um, and, you know, whether it's fullyready or just on the cusp of being

(01:12:23):
launched, the info will be there.

Cheri (01:12:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the first stage, iscalled Battery Bootcamp.
And so it is directly targetedat parents and caregivers.
And it is a workbook and resources,um, that covers everything, covers
regulation development, your ownregulation style, how to support your
own regulation, and the beginningsof supporting a child's regulation.

(01:12:45):
So noticing theirtriggers and their signs.
It's also a really good one for healthprofessionals to use with families for
coaching and education sessions as well.
So parents can use it on theirown or health professionals can
implement it with families . And thenwe've got other stages coming out
as well, which is super exciting.

Adina (01:13:05):
There's some incredible, like, I know I've seen some of your resources,
I've got some, I love watching whatyou are creating and thinking, and this
chat has been so clarifying for me.
Like I'm gonna have to think more on it.
And I can't wait.
When I go back and listen backand edit it again, I'm like, I'm
actually really, really excited.
Yeah.

Cheri (01:13:22):
It's huge.
And then it's, it's probably likea complete information overload.
So please do reach out if anyone haslike any questions or, there's something
that didn't quite make sense, whateverthat may be, because it, it is a lot
and it's a lot to unpack and that'swhat I was saying at the very start.
It's not as straightforwardas people think it

Adina (01:13:40):
is.

Cheri (01:13:41):
Yes.
Um, but yeah.

Adina (01:13:43):
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, definitelyget in touch with Cheri.
She is Learn and Grow ot.
You don't have to remember anything,it's all gonna be linked up in the show
notes, but on Instagram, go straightaway., if you are there and go follow her.
She is learn dot grow dot ot,and so yeah, I'm so excited.
There's so much more that we canall do on this ongoing journey.

(01:14:07):
I love it.
I appreciate this, thisspace I really like.
Oh yeah.
That I've got so much to sit with and Ican't wait to hear what anyone listening
or watching has, you know, what's poppedup for you, what are your next questions?
And maybe they'll turn intoanother episode or a resource.
Yeah, absolutely.

Cheri (01:14:25):
Yeah, if there, was there something that you want me to dive
more in, in depth with or in likethat would love your thoughts.

Adina (01:14:33):
Yay.
Thanks so much for coming on Cheri.
Beautiful.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for sharingthis space and time with me.
Thank you for being open tolearning and unlearning and to
listening to the perspectives andexperiences of Neurodivergent folks.
If you found this episode helpful,please share it with a friend, share a
screenshot on Instagram, pop a five starrating and a review in your favorite app.

(01:14:55):
And join me on Instagram and Facebook.
I'm @play.Learn.chat.
Have a spectacular day.

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Regulation & Co-Regulation - What we're getting wrong & how to get it right with OT Cheri Strecker

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Regulation & Co-Regulation - What we're getting wrong & how to get it right with OT Cheri Strecker