April 11, 2025 • 48 mins
Meg and Mel explore the fascinating world of ageworthy white wines, examining which varieties cellar best and how to identify bottles worth laying down.
What Meg's drinking: 2023 Marchand & Burch Mount Barrow Pinot Noir $72
Wines tasted:
- 2024 Howard Park Great Southern Riesling $36
- 2014 Howard Park Great Southern Riesling
- 2024 Scarborough The Obsessive Semillon $35
- 2018 Scarborough The Obsessive Simillion
- 2023 The Obsessive Chardonnay $45
- 2019 The Obsessive Chardonnay
Key things to remember:
• Acid is the most important factor for aging white wine successfully
• Look for moderate alcohol (12.5-13.5%), good concentration, and varietal expression
• Riesling, Semillon, and Chardonnay are the three main varieties suitable for long-term aging
• Hunter Valley Semillon transforms dramatically from delicate lemon-citrus to complex honey and toast
• Aged Riesling develops kerosene, marmalade and preserved lemon characteristics
• Chardonnay requires quality oak treatment to age well, peaking around 10-12 years
• Cheaper Riesling and Semillon can still age beautifully, while inexpensive Chardonnay will not
• Buy a dozen bottles and taste one each year to experience the aging journey firsthand
Join us next week as we explore German wine ripeness levels, diving into Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese, Trockenbeerenauslese, and more!
Follow us on instagram @winewithmegandmel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel.
We're here to help you navigatethe world of wine.
I'm Mel Gilchrist, joined byMaster of Wine Meg Brotman, and
look, every now and then there'san episode that you know.
Sometimes we decide becausepeople ask us to do episodes.
Sometimes we realize a trendand we want to do it, and
sometimes there's just things Ireally want to taste, and today
(00:30):
might be one of those.
What are we doing, mel?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
wants to drink on the weekend.
We are doing how to age wines,or wines worthy whites worthy.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
How to pick a white wine to age.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And because we did talk just a couple of weeks ago
about how, all of a sudden, forthe first time like ever,
there's all these white winesthat are being aged because
WineArc put out their yeah,their collectibles, yeah.
So it felt like a good time totalk about how do you age a
white wine?
How do you even find or choosea white wine?
How do you know if it's goingto age?
So we're going to go into that,but first, meg, tell us about
(01:07):
what you've been drinking.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
So I had a Marchand and Birch Mount Barker Pinot
Noir 2023.
I think it's the first timeI've had a Mount Barker in WA,
wa Pinot.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Really delicious.
I'm not super familiar, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Cherry, you know.
A bit of minerality to it,lovely tannins.
It was just a very drinkable,beautiful drop.
We've been having a run ofquite hot weather here and it
was just something that Ithought was really yummy, and we
had it with egg and bacon pie.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh right, or bacon and egg, depending on where you
are.
It looks like it's worth like$72, meg Okay, depending on
where you are, it looks likeit's worth like $72, meg Okay.
Well, you're like I had it witha pie it was lovely.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm one of the people they did send it to us.
You're not one of the peopleanymore, so I would.
I would look seriously.
$72, it is a very, very goodwine.
All right, it's definitelyworth a try.
Particularly, it should be agood region to go Pinot, because
it's cool climate.
I've never had one from thereand it was a really good
(02:12):
expression and it wasn'tmimicking from somewhere else.
Do you know what I mean?
There was a level ofdistinctiveness about it that
set it apart.
It was good, but I didn'trealise it was $72.
No wonder I enjoyed it so, butI didn't realise it was $72.
No wonder I enjoyed it so much.
It does make sense.
I can pick quality, jesus.
(02:33):
Fun fact, this might besomething that you know about
Champagne shipments have droppedto a level not seen since the
turn of the century.
Jesus, I knew it was low, but Ididn't know that was the answer
.
In 2023, it dropped 27.6million bottles from the 2022
levels and then in 2024 itdropped 9.2% from the 2023.
(02:57):
So overall, it's dropped in thelast two years 50% sort of
levels, still running at 271.4million bottles a year.
But they interviewed a numberof people.
I think this was a drinksbusiness article.
They interviewed a number ofpeople in Champagne and Subway
and they're just like well,really, the world isn't a very
great place at the moment, sothere's not a lot of Champagne
(03:18):
moments.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Dad, and no one can afford Champagne.
That seems more was that tooobvious like what?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
okay, clearly, affordability, um, I mean,
that's cute as well.
Yeah, I well, I'm going withthat, but I think that's more
reason to drink champagne ratherthan less reason that's true
australia.
I mean, we really hit.
You would know better than me,but we really hit above our
population levels in terms ofour champagne consumption, don't
we?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Huge like compared to the rest of the world.
It is insane.
It is something I'm reallyproud of.
If we're going to be patrioticfor anything, you should be
proud that our country drinks alot of champagne.
But I will counter your factwith some good news is that
sparkling wine from Australia isdoing well, and so another
option is that, yeah, people arejust trading down to Australian
(04:08):
, which it's a tough thing rightIn the drinks industry.
We do want people to beattributing value to what we
make and spending.
You know spending money as muchmoney as we can get but at the
same time, it's really nice thatat least that money's going
towards australian.
Yeah, that's great stuff.
Instead, a little bit ofglimmer, yeah, but I I do see
(04:33):
your point about um no occasions, and I sent my brother home
with a nice wine he babysat forme last weekend and I said to
him just drink it like, promiseme you won't put it in your wine
rack and forget about it?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Because people just are like, oh, there will never
be an occasion.
It's like just make an occasionJust eat, just drink it.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
We are all into everyday luxury at the moment.
Yeah, Because you know youcan't probably afford to eat it
as much as you used to or asfrequently.
Yeah, so why not, with your eggand bacon pie, have a $72 bowl
of wine.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, there we go.
I see why you did that.
You brought it back reallynicely, I justified my
indulgence.
Yeah, yeah yeah, that was good.
That was good.
Okay, let's get into it.
What we've done is what we'vegot three grapes.
Why don't you go through it?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So we've got, I think , the three main varieties that
you would age, Semillon beingone, riesling being the other
and Chardonnay.
Now, of course, there are othervarieties Marsans, some
high-level Viogniers, you knowage what other?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
grape varieties.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Fiano.
I'm not a fan of piano, tostart with, um, but there's
really not, because things likeyou know, sauvignon blanc
designed to be drunk in itsyouth, although if you're
drinking a high level sauvignonblanc, say, out of pestac lignon
in in france, and they aredesigned to be aged, but they
don't have that grassiness.
There's much more mineralityand blackcurrant leaf and
elderflower characteristics.
Some of the Sauvignon Zadeh sayPouille Fumée and Sancerre
(06:13):
should be aged, but mostly whenI was actually in Dan Murphy's
the other day, they've got theircellar release and the whites
were Riesling and Chardonnay.
That's all they had on theircellar release.
So it was the collectibles.
To be fair, it was the Lewinsand everything and the Polish
Hill Riesling.
But, yeah, you need, you can ageanything.
(06:38):
Yeah, but when we're talkingabout aging, we want it to
improve and become more complex.
Yes, not even improve, becomemore complex.
And yes, not even improve,become more complex.
I think because I love a youngClaire Riesling.
Yeah, you know, straight offout of the tank, current vintage
2025, drinking that in August.
But I just, I also lovesomething at 2018 and, you know,
(07:00):
2010 and with it, get, get moreof that ageing tertiary
characteristic as we refer to it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
The funny thing for me with white wines is, say,
maybe the big four in Australiawould be Riesling, chardonnay,
semillon, marsan would be themain things for the age and the
first two are awesome, young andamazing and can be enjoyed
their whole life.
But the second two, semillonand Marssan, aren't necessarily
(07:28):
that good, young I will say Iknow there's a more politically
correct way for me to say that,but whatever, personally they
can be really simple and neutral.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Simple, that's right.
They can be very, very simpleand that's why I love the
Semillons sort of half and theMarsans halfway through their
ageing journey.
So you've still got some ofthat primary freshness, that
lemon and lemon piss, and then,in the case of Marsan, that
floralness.
But then you're starting to seesome of the ageing character
(07:59):
come through.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, I do enjoy that kind of like five, six-year
mark.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And I've said it before, if you're going to buy a
dozen bottles, put them downand then just do one a year and
see how they taste.
It's good fun.
It's like a jigsaw puzzlealmost.
You know putting the piecestogether.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Okay, so to get into it, Meg.
What are the specific thingsthat we need to look for if we
want to age a white wine?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Acid.
Acid it's the first one.
I would say not too highalcohol around the between 12
and a half to 13 and a halfpercent, because that tends to
suggest lower ripeness.
Generally it will have moreacidity, if that makes sense
It'll have more natural aciditythan something that it's 14%.
(08:46):
Also, if you move to that sortof 14, 14 and a half percent, we
don't really see a lot ofwhites at that.
But you're moving the fruitlike you look at Riesling.
Riesling goes from green fruitto almost pineapple tropical
fruit as it moves along thatripeness spectrum.
So you kind of want somethingthat's more in that green fruit,
(09:09):
so a little lower.
The other one that we forgot isshennan.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh, shennan, of course, but I just haven't come
up with.
There's not many shennans inthe world, Not in Australia.
No, Anyway, you might find itwhat, mainly vouvray or
something.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, but yeah, in Australia there's not much
Shannon, that you're aging SwanValley, pretty much a bit of
Margaret River now, anyway.
So acid's the first, acid'sfirst, moderate acidity, and
then you want to taste the wine.
If it's sort of simple andfeels dilute, like someone's
dropped a little bit of water init, that's not going to age
(09:42):
well, because that diluteness orlack of concentration of
flavours will become moreevident as the wine ages.
You can't cover a flaw as itgets older.
If that makes sense, yeah.
So you want to hold it in yourpalate and let it feel like it's
got some palate weight, somebody, some concentration to it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
That's interesting, though, because a lot of
Rieslings wouldn't taste likethat no but they've still got
the layers of complexity.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So it's a balancing thing.
Yeah, because Semillon too canfeel quite dilute, and simple on
your palate.
And it can also be quite simplein its flavor profile, but
you've got to think of it interms of the variety that you're
looking at at its time in life.
You want it to be the mostexpressive Riesling from 2025
(10:31):
from the Clare Valley.
And I know, when I've judgedyoung Semillons I have just I
learnt from you know, ian Riggs,broken Wood, one of the
greatest Semillon winemaker,probably their greatest Semillon
winemaker, I think.
Quick little flex, but yeah,yeah, well, the Tyrells, I mean
there's a handful of them butthey're very good.
Yeah, he said, basically you'relooking for some layers of
(10:57):
flavour.
It's not just lemon.
They want some floralness andmaybe some waxy character to the
wine.
So you're looking at thestructure, but you do want that
absolute, as he put it, batteryacid acidity.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You want it to have that searing city, because
that's going to keep the wineand help it to live Okay and
screw cap.
So what about the fact thateverything you've described so
far could be found in someSauvignon Blancs?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yes, okay, okay, as Sauvvin young, and that's the
other thing.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
When reasoning ages, what characters do we get?
Uh like kerosene, marmalade,preserved lemon as sovin young
ages.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
What characters do we get?
Mushy peeps, exactly so youwant it to be getting still be
delicious.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
So there is an element of even if you have
everything, there are somevarieties to just keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, because of a lot of Sauvignon that we see on
the market and I'm not talking,you know, pessac sort of style
or high expensive Sancerre,because their flavour profile is
much more mineral.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
blackcurrant Could it be some fair age.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, I've had a few Okay, they're okay Pouffumé a
few of Didier Degeneau's winesand look, they're interesting.
But I don't think there is theflavour.
Complex array of flavours, yeah, okay, but a Sauvignon Blanc at
, say, $35 is made to be enjoyedyoung.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
That's the whole point of it.
Yeah, and you know Riesling cansettle both of those Semi-young
, I would argue a lot of themaren't made to be enjoyed.
Yeah, that's fair In theiryouth.
Yeah, I mean, I still reallyenjoy them, but they can be
pretty tough little babies.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, they really can .
Speaker 1 (12:43):
All right, so we start tasting.
Okay, let's do it.
So we've got a Howard ParkGreat Southern Riesling 2024.
So we'd expect to see that sortof green apple character lots
of acidity, moderate alcohol,maybe some minerality, white
florals this is quite lemony,yeah, like lemon apple floral.
(13:08):
And we are using Coravin today.
Oh my God, it's all veryexciting.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
It is so exciting Season two or something we'll
use Coravin because we're atyour house and you're all fancy
because you're an MW, so youhave a Coravin, but since we've
been at my house, we've beenwasting quite a lot of wine.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, I could have brought the Coravin over.
You know, I'm just not thatorganised.
No, this is a thing, no, so Melnow has.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Thank you to.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Thank you, coravin, yeah, coravin, for sending Mel
and me some new Supplies.
Supplies, but yes, it makeslife a lot easier because I've
got mine put away.
It's got like a little bagthing and I just can never be
bothered getting it out.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Just the amount of wine that's not going to be
wasted.
True Is going to be phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
This is game-changing stuff.
Yeah, maybe we'll talk moreabout Corbin another day, but I
am very excited, so good pointthere, meg.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
All right, riesling, yep.
So the other interesting thingabout this wine is it definitely
has a higher level of dissolvedcarbon dioxide in it.
Can you feel that slight littlespritzy?
It's not bubbly, it's noteffervescent, it just has a
little tickle and that keeps thewine younger and fresher for a
longer period of time and alsomakes the acid look more
(14:24):
prominent in the wine.
If we shook that, end up inthere.
So when you're fermenting,obviously there's carbon dioxide
formed, and the more you movethe wine after fermentation, the
more of that dissolved carbondioxide moves out.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
So you don't move it.
Yeah, interesting, like it'sCoke, and the more you shake it
it gets flatter Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, but if you think about a Riesling, it's
fermented in tank.
It goes from one tank toanother tank to get off its
gross leaves.
Then it pretty much getsfiltered.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That's it.
For anyone that doesn't know,gross leaves is the term.
Meg doesn't think leaves aregross.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I don't think have we talked about that before I
can't remember.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Gross leaves are the big thing of dead yeast cells at
the bottom of the tank.
Gross just it's lees is theterm we use.
Gross is, I think, from theFrench because it's grossly the
same.
Well, gross would be big, yeah,big, big lees, big lees versus
fine lees.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
So what's interesting to me, just even before we go
into the ageability of this one,God, it's different to a Clare
or an Eden Valley, isn't it?
It's I to the ageability ofthis wine, God, it's different
to a Clare or an Eden Valley,isn't it?
I find them a lot like softerand more approachable and kind
of delicate.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Definitely it's got that lime characteristic that I
expect from Clare, but there'smore of a light, delicate white
flower characteristic and Istill find there's a real
minerality about it Big time.
But the structure of the wineis not clear.
It doesn't feel like a clear,no, it is more.
It's a little bit gentler, it'salmost like a bubble in your
(16:04):
mouth.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah it's gentle.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, it's very soft and gentle.
It's a lovely wine.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So that's the 2024, and we also have you got it, you
got it, I got it.
See, coravin.
Okay, so while we're pouringthis so the point of Coravin is
(16:30):
basically we've put a new cap onit and then we're putting like
a needle through the top, whichmeans that only a little bit is
poured out at a time, and thenthe machine puts a gas in that's
going to sit on top of the winein the bottle, and what that's
going to do is mean that it'snot going to be in contact with
oxygen, and contact with oxygenis what makes wine go bad slowly
(16:54):
.
But this shouldn't.
We could get weeks months.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yes, they claim three weeks.
Um, okay, so not months, weeks.
Yeah, well, there's differentsystems, but, um, it's so.
The gas is argon.
The argon, being heavier thanair, sits on top of the wine,
but it's also used to push thewine out.
So the wine actually has nocontact with air at all and it
(17:20):
definitely, like the thing isI've never really tested it
because my glass doesn't lastlonger than three weeks yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
No, this says.
With a Coravin Timeless system,you can preserve screw cap wine
for up to three months,ensuring the last glass tastes
as amazing as the first.
We so need to test that.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Okay.
So what are you going to do?
Keep a bottle of wine and then.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Maybe this one, okay, or maybe it should be a red.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, no, you can do that, and then I'm not allowed
to put the bottle in front of it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, we could do that.
Yeah, we'll hold on to it andthen we'll see.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And so, but you need to keep taking more out of it
with the caravan, because thisis.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Well, we'll take a few glasses out.
Maybe this is my question.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
We'll have one.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I want to see your job is so it's three months Of
one glass a month, and thenthere'll be one more Of one
glass a month, and then there'llbe one left.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I reckon you could do it every fortnight, because if
you're only pouring 50 mils,okay, I'll taste a little bit
every fortnight, because you'vegot to make sure that, even to
that last bit, wheretheoretically you would have
more air in contact with it,that it will still stay as fresh
.
Yeah, so your job is to tastethat bottle of wine every
fortnight.
Oh, no Homework, how tough.
So this is a 2014, so it's 10years older and definitely
(18:37):
you've got the colour on it.
And that's the other thing.
When you're buying a wine toage, make sure it doesn't have
any sort of orange or browntinge in the wine.
For a young wine, not for abetrothed sweet wine, you want
it to be really fresh,preferably with a little green
tinge, and this is definitelymoving towards more of a lemon
skin colour.
The green tinge is still there,though.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's more toasty rather than like, marmalade
rather than like cheese.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Edit that out.
Oh, oh, oh, edit that out.
Oh my God, we just had a littlebit of an alien invasion in our
ears.
We're all back on.
The storm is fast, so startagain.
It was like a storm actually.
Yeah, it was.
It was like thunder.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Okay, this is because we record DIY at home and not
in a studio.
So what was I saying?
Yeah, what's interesting to meis that wait, what are we?
2014?
So it's.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Ten years old.
Ten years Well, 11, but tenyears older than the previous
one.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I think I would have expected.
I haven't tasted it yet.
Just on the nose there's not awhole lot of like caramel
marmalade, like it's quitetoasty at this point in its life
.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's toasty.
And the other thing is, withaged Riesling you know that
kerosene smell.
We don't want that to come intoo early.
Yes, so you want that to sortof start appearing at around
that five-year mark.
If it starts appearing at twoor three years in, you drink it
because the wine's just going toend up as that one flavour
profile and nothing else.
This has just got a touch of it.
(20:13):
There's definitely toast.
I get some honey on it.
I get like a quince, a sort ofbaked quince characteristic.
I mean, that may be a vintagevariation, but there's also like
a clotted almost creamycharacter.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, there is a real creaminess on the nose, like a
yoghurt Really interesting.
It is, but once again, on thepalate it is delicate.
It is more delicate than I wasexpecting.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Jesus Working.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
But once again on the nose, it's delicate.
It's more delicate than I wasexpecting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, but I think that maybe that's the region.
Yeah, yeah, because I'm withyou If this was Claire or Eden
Valley, eden Valley would havemore of that floral character
and would be a little bit moredelicate in the palette but
would still have that real finesort of line.
This is a little bit more of abubble in your mouth.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I feel like it's like maybe like when Claire
or Eden like aged theirRiesling 10 years.
It's the equivalent of someonelike bursting through the door
and coming into the house andbeing like hey, I'm an H and
this is more like someone slowlybeing like hello.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yes, this is almost like a woman that's giving
herself gentle Botox, aging Likeshe's slowly shifting into it.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
She's like owning it.
She's owning it, it's good onher, but it's like it's just
gentle.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, that's right, yeah, like Helen Mirren, she
looks bloody fantastic comparedto, like you know, the Nicole
Kidmans and everything withtheir faces just don't move.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I know we're not going to put any women's
appearances down on this podcast, meg Okay sorry.
So this is yes, it's age'saging beautifully, but it's not
um.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, I feel we've done it a disservice, opening it
well, it's under coravin, soyou get to drink it for the next
three months, true, no, but noI don't mean years I disagree
there is not never one point.
It's like they never ring abell when the stock market's at
its peak.
Okay yeah, there's never onepoint where the wine is going to
be perfect.
It's always going to bedifferent and interesting.
(22:40):
That's like aging women it'sfantastic.
You know each step, each era isinteresting.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
It's funny because, like Penfolds famously do, like
their Grange tastings, wherethey use a Coravian, do they use
?
Yeah, they must use coravian,otherwise how are they tasting
it?
Because what they do is theytaste the wine.
They get the wine maker totaste it and then they say to
you oh, you've still got 10years, age it longer or whatever
.
Wow, yeah, do they still dothose they used to.
(23:07):
I remember those, one in sydneywhen I was up there.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I know you can take your grain, replace the cork
when your cork's stuffed.
I'm sure I've heard you couldbe right.
They offer it.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's an luxury brand, but yeah, yeah, but I mean
that's just interesting becauseit is in contrast with what
you're saying, but I love whatyou're saying.
I think it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, I just think it's, yeah, I just, I like the
journey and the discovery.
And then if you do buy, youknow a dozen of these.
I know you've got to wait 12years to see how they're
drinking, but then you know that, oh, it was drinking really
well at six years.
Yeah, or five years, or if youhave the opportunity to buy.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Riesling can go up to like 20 years, so maybe you
need to drink one every secondyear.
30, 40 years, easy, all right,this is fun.
Where do you want to go next?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Semillon or Chardonnay Semillon, okay, I
need to get the Coravin, theobsessive Semillon, the cottage
vineyard, hunter Valley, and thething that we both found very
interesting here was that it'sgot the picking date.
So it was picked on the 27th ofJanuary 2024.
And then we've got the sameproducer, same wine, but in 2018
(24:16):
, picked on the 25th of January2024.
And then we've got the sameproducer, same wine, but in 2018
, picked on the 25th of January.
So, literally almost to the day.
Six years I was just doing themaths in my head a little bit
slow.
Six years' park yeah, that'ssuper cool.
So young, semi-young Lemon,white florals, lemon pith.
I get sometimes an orangeblossom character.
(24:40):
Oh, that's a beautiful nose.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It is such a beautiful nose.
As soon as I smelt it I waslike I take back everything I
said about Tami on being boring.
It is such a strong citrus,it's like a piercing citrus nose
.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I went to a sake tasting on Saturday and we
bought a yuzu sake.
Yeah, they described it to usas the Japanese limoncello,
which did not bode well with mebecause I'm not a fan of
limoncello.
However, it's not really sweet,it's not, I'm not a fan of
limoncello.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
However, oh my God, she must be the only person in
the country.
It's not really sweet.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Ah, it is searing acidity.
So it kind of has that yuzucitrus.
You know how yuzu is likecitrus on steroids.
Yeah, kind of has that yuzu-ycharacter.
I'm all over sake now.
I think we should do a sakeepisode.
Let on, yeah, let's, it's cool.
The thing is with semi-arm, youknow, I know I said that you've
(25:37):
got to have complexity offlavours.
You don't have to have strongflavours and aromas.
They can be delicate, but thereis a lot of going in that glass
.
There's some things that Ican't actually kind of describe.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Oh, I love it, when that happens.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It's almost like wheat hearts wheat germy.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I literally know exactly what you're talking
about.
Like yeah, Do you know what Imean?
It's like a dried somethinggreen.
Yeah, it's like a dried grass.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Hey, I think you're closer with wheat.
Yeah, wheat, it's like a wheatgerm.
Yeah, I think you were closerwith wheat.
Yeah, wheat, it's like a wheatgerm.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, literally wheat like.
Yeah, I don't know, I don'tknow I think I used to pick it.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah, when you run your hand up it.
Yeah, you run your hand up it.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I used to pick it and swing it around.
It's like a wand, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
No, it smells beautiful and and then there's
that lemon.
There is that usually there'swhite flowers, but it is very,
very delicate, but it is sothat's gonna sound like a wanker
, but so enticing like you justkind of want to get it into your
mouth and taste it.
And I know this is going tohave fantastically high acidity.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yes, this is, I mean it's.
Would you say this is classicHunter Valisamion or do you
think it's got a bit of adifferent edge than what you'd
normally expect?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It's a little bit more funky, but I love what it
says on the back the obsessive,quietly spoken and one of the
old guard of Hunter winemakers,patriarch Ian Scarborough.
When I first read that Ithought it read quietly
outspoken and that's kind ofwhat the wine is.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah true .
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, cool.
So there's a lot there but it'svery quiet in its.
It's expressing a lot but it'svery gentle in its expression
11.5%, beautiful.
Yeah, they've only usedfree-run juice, so 450 litres
per tonne, which is low.
Stainless steel, inoculatedculture, ge 16 degrees Celsius,
(27:47):
pretty standard wine making.
And this is the beauty aboutHunter Valley Semillon you can
churn that shit out reallyquickly.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
It's.
It's not super complex, thoughLike there's some interesting,
but it's well.
It's not super intense inflavour, there's not a strong
finish, it's quite crisp.
It's almost like I want to havethis with seafood and Fish and
chips.
I'm thinking tonight Like by apool.
My new thing is in Wessert.
I make people tell me before wego into like the full SAT.
(28:16):
I say either someone has toeither tell me where you drink
it, who you drink it with orwhat you eat with it.
They always go with eat, whichalmost annoys me.
I'm like think outside the box.
Yes, what occasion.
Tell me you're going to watchit in front of maths.
Anyway, we're back on maths.
I can always get us there.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Aren't you supposed to be comparing what the wines
to maths characters?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
No, because last time I tried the chick that I said
was really cool, like literallybefore this episode dropped, she
went a little crazy and I got abit worried.
I'm like, oh no, all ourlisteners are going to, so no
more Maff's opinions from me.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
This has got what I expect young Hunter Valley
semi-young to have, which iscrisp, acidity, lemon, citrus
fruit, delicate in its profile.
But you know that it's going toget more complex and
interesting with age and that'skind of the point.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
All right.
So now we are moving to the age.
So 2018 makes it Six, six years.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thanks, meg, I've already done the maths on it.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Oh yeah, you did too, Thank God.
That is not my strong point.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Okay, I'm good at maths, except with nines.
But did you know that allmultiples of nines add up to
nine?
Nine nines are 81, eight plusone?
No, yep.
Do nines are 81.
Eight plus one?
No, yep, do it Mind blown?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I don't know enough multiples to be able to do it,
but 18, I guess that works.
Yeah, two, nines 18.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Wow, one, eight, three, nines, 27.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Two plus seven, I don't understand maths, but it's
mind-boggling I know, oh, myGod, yum, I don't understand
maths, but it's mind-boggling, Iknow.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
That's my hunt for goodwill hunting or whatever
it's called Goodwill hunting.
I think I confused that withthe hunt for Red October.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Okay, here's a question Do you think you could
easily distinguish an aged if itwas proper aged like maybe not
Chardonnay take out Chardonnayand Shannon but Riesling Marsan,
semillon?
Do you think they're differentenough aged that you could
distinguish one?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yes, semillon and Marsan don't get kerosene
characters.
Really, they're not terpenevarieties.
Huh, and you need that terpeneto turn into.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
That's crazy.
In my head, Semillon does so.
They need to be what we callaromatic varieties.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Okay, semillon for me is honey, crumpets, toast and
honey.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And didiers, that's exactly what it is.
Yeah, and it doesn't get thatCreamed honey, yeah, creamed
honey.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
It doesn't get that marmalade character Marsan.
I've got to be honest.
I'm not like you.
I haven't spent half my life atShadow to Bilk drinking aged
Marsan from the very firstMarsan that they ever made, so
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But Hunter said I think Marsan is more.
It turns quite creamy, like itgets that real like almost
dairy-made.
I know I did the same thingwhen I tasted it, meg, it is so
good.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Oh my God, it's a baby.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
How old, is it?
Oh, it's so good.
No, not yet.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Six Six, no, not yet Right six, six, okay, again,
it's got that delicateness.
It's got that honey creamedhoney toast.
Still plenty of lemons.
Still plenty of that yuzucharacteristic I get a little
bit of I call them green gaugeplums, depending on what that is
, so like a green gauge plum inthere as well.
(32:01):
It falls a little short at theback, but I think 2018 was quite
a warm year, so although theypicked on the same, almost the
same day, so maybe I'm justtalking at my bum, I don't know
what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
You know how sometimes I can see wines.
Yes, I fully visualised this.
So when I have a sip, I got awave of this.
It's really interesting becauseit's not in the front palate,
it's not super upfront.
I got this wave of this liketoasty, creamy toastiness just
exploded from almost from thebottom of my mouth up and
(32:36):
outwards and around and startedfilling my mouth around.
And then, as it was filling,this other wave of acidity has
just come and shot straightthrough it.
But both of them carried onwhat they were doing at the same
time.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Beautiful it's.
Oh, I've just rememberedsomething, sorry, it is
definitely creamed honey, nothoney.
Oh, absolutely, I don't evenknow what creamed honey is.
Oh, I do just rememberedsomething, sorry, it is
definitely creamed honey, nothoney.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Oh, absolutely, I don't even know what creamed
honey is.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Oh, I do, it's delicious.
No, I know what it is.
What is it?
I think it's just whipped, Idon't know Right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So it's just Well.
It gives it a more creamysensation.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
But it smells different.
It doesn't smell, it smells.
It smells creamier.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, I think that somehow that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Did they not put any butter or anything?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
in it.
Let's see.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Anyway.
So cream tonic, this is classic, semi-young.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Too young.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Oh no, I was wrong, it's been pasteurised, then it's
resulting in a smooth,spreadable texture.
So the heat obviously ischanging, so it's pasteurising.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Is it a similar thing to like melo or something like
you're changing a bio,biological bio?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
bacterial, you must be changing.
I mean, if you're hearing it,pasteurization, it must be um, I
like failed science.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I should stop talking to the masses just tell me to
shut up this.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
This is not a science podcast.
Anyway, back to the seniorCream toddy, yes, delicious,
beautiful, just so good, just,oh my God, it's good.
How much are these wines?
Are they really expensive?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Okay.
So as a young one, it's 36.
Let me, that's not the rightwine, well, okay.
So look, let me pop open one,Because we're organised now when
people send us things.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Mel's organised.
Oh my God, that is such goodwine.
I just want to sit here anddrink now.
Okay, we'll put it up on theshow notes.
Yeah, you'll find out.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Okay, I'll keep looking.
Why don't you start pouring outChardonnay?
Because Chardonnay?
Because chardonnay, funnilyenough, is not one that I have.
I've tasted the least agedchardonnay, oh yes, so maybe
because I don't know I'm.
I just love chardonnay.
I drink it all.
I'm not putting it down.
(34:56):
No old book and all the otherproblem is knowing back.
I haven't had much old Burgundyif that's where you're going,
and it's clearly a sore point.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Okay, the thing is, I think and I'm probably guilty
of this is we probably buy moreChardonnay than anything else.
Yeah, okay, but we also drinkmore Chardonnay than anything
else, so it doesn't really getto the age.
The thing is, if you are goingto age wines, people, you have
got to put them away, because ifyou just put them in your wine
fridge, suddenly the dozenbottles are gone.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yes, yes, absolutely, you're investing for the future
.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
You've got to just forget that they exist and put
them away.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I had these people who, at the end of their website
, came up to me the other dayand they're like, oh, we have
all this nice wine, but now thatyou mentioned that we shouldn't
be keeping it in the light, itjust sits in the living room and
like the light blares at it allday.
Oh, and I didn't want to tellthem.
I was like, oh, I was like, gohome and drink it, just go home
(35:57):
and drink it I didn't tell themit was definitely ruined, but I
was like just keep it in thecardboard box you know, and that
also your glass.
Please, that also insulates itfrom um a little bit of
vibration as well being in thecardboard box, okay, so I
actually can't find the pricethat is selling on, so it might
not be for sale.
It literally might be a go buyit and um, not even on their
(36:20):
website.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
No, Well, that's not very good marketing.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Scarborough.
Well, no, because they might beaging it.
They might have just given itto us, because we're awesome $35
.
Yeah, that's a new one.
I'm talking about the older one.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Oh, you weren't yeah.
Yeah, they might not be selling.
You'd have to approach the yeah.
So it's 35 for the 2023 2024.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
yeah, which is what we had, okay yeah, so you just
got to buy it you and be reallypatient or get in touch with
them directly and see if theycan sell you this but that's the
other thing about it is thatthey it's cheaper for you to do
it.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I know not everyone has a space.
I understand that.
Don't be too precious abouthaving, you know, a wine fridge
and it has to be absolutelyperfect as long as you put it
away somewhere in your housewhere there is fairly constant
temperature.
There's no such thing asconstant temperature in anyone's
houses, but fairly constanttemperature bottom of your
wardrobe floor.
Keep it dark.
Don't keep moving it around.
(37:15):
You'll get the benefits ofaging.
So this is again Scarborough2023, chardonnay.
So this is from Hunter Valley.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Interestingly for me I will put out a pretty strong
statement is I reckon you couldage almost any Marsan Semillon
or Riesling that you buy, anyMarsan Simeon or Riesling that
you buy.
I once got a case of like $12,like Jacob's Creek cheap
Riesling.
That was 15 years old and itwas some of the best stuff I've
(37:51):
ever tasted.
Yep, but it feels like the samedoesn't go with Chardonnay.
So what's going on there?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Okay, so Chardonnay to age well and to have good
complexity and to have lovelyflavors of that sort of nougat,
toasted almond creaminess, needssome oak and it needs good
quality oak.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, okay that costs money.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
So, with Mel's right, you can buy a $20 Riesling,
even a $15 Riesling, and it'llbe interesting.
Yeah, it's not going to be thebest aged Riesling, but it'll
still be interesting.
You're still going to get someof those characters, so
definitely worthwhile.
Mm-hmm With Chardonnay.
If you bought a $15 Chardonnay,it would not be very nice.
(38:45):
So go 30 and over and again.
Hide it away.
I think personally thatChardonnay doesn't age as well
as Riesling and Semiel andMarçal.
It doesn't tend to go as long.
I think for me, peak time formost Australian cool climate
Chardonnays that I've drunk peaktime is around that 10 to 12
(39:08):
years in terms of aging.
After that they develop it'sall just tertiary
characteristics and they losefor me some of the interest.
Okay, that's a good note.
I have had older whiteburgundies.
The problem with a lot of oldwhite burgundies is oxidation
issues, because they use shittycorks and they don't use sulfur
dioxide.
So I mean the 2012 vintage inburgundy was pretty much written
(39:31):
off because of oxidative issues, because region-wide they had a
problem with cork and they hadoxidation.
So for me it's that 10 to12-year mark, anything older.
I'm not going to age myshardies, but a 30-year-old
Riesling or a 40-year-oldRiesling or a 30-year-old
(39:51):
Semillon or a 40-year-oldSemillon is just an absolute
thing of joy, isn't it?
Yeah, they hold the acidity youknow and they're not high
alcohol.
And as the primary fruit dropsoff and you get all tertiary
chardonnay, because it is about13.5%, it's a little bit.
The alcohol starts to sit alittle bit above it.
Yeah, so this wine, I think thealcohol feels 13.5.
(40:15):
It's 13.7, which means it couldbe 14.2.
You can feel the alcohol onthis wine, but it's still quite
struck matchy.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
No, it is.
It's really really lovely style.
I love that.
Yeah, there's like a mineral.
There's freshness, soft.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Hunter Valley.
Chardonnay is very underrated.
It's, you know.
I think it's a great region forChardonnay but it is quite
underrated.
I guess you've got Semillon now, although Cyril's Vat 47, you
know Chardonnay is probably oneof the greatest Chardonnays out
of the region, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
All right, so we'll try.
I always think, when I tastethrough the different Tyrell's
wines, the HVD Vineyard isalways my favourite, I think.
I just like I think it goes sohardcore with its aged
characters.
Oh, absolutely, seems to be myvibe.
Okay, so now we go.
What's the second?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Chardonnay, I've got it here 2019.
So that's sitting at the firstone.
I've got it here 2019.
So that's sitting at 20.
The first one was 2023.
The first one was 2023.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So that's four years, four years difference, but a
total of like what?
Five years age, yeah, yeah,okay, so that's interesting.
So it's not a lot likecomparatively to what we've been
doing today.
So it'll be interesting to seewhat the difference is.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
No, but my guess is you should be able to see, and
also with Chardonnay, it's morevintage sensitive.
Yeah, okay, yeah, I think yeah,because it doesn't have that
natural acidity.
It's not an aromatic grapevariety like Riesling is.
Well, it's quite a developedcolour for a four-year-old wine.
(42:05):
So we had the Semi-Young thatwas 2018 and had no real colour
development.
Look at that.
That's already showing adefinite lemon character.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, you can smell it.
You can absolutely smell thatAge.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I don't know if you can see the colour, but it's
definitely almost a gold, not adeep gold.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
No, but like a Like a wedding band gold, yeah, yeah
it is yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Not white wedding band, gold, nougat, ripe peach.
So there's still some primarycharacter in there.
Oh, there's like a ozone seaspray.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Oh, I'm getting something green and danky, but
in a nice way, not bad Like.
I think it's beautiful.
I'm really bad at when I smellsomething more, something more
like, um, super savory and Idon't know.
I always use the word danky,which I know is bad.
I'll stop doing it, but do youknow what I mean?
There's like yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I can see it, but I think that's what my sea spray,
I think that kind of, is like.
I'm gonna say this like a pond,you know it where it doesn't
have, yeah, but in a good way,in a good way.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
No, absolutely in a good way.
It smells beautiful.
I'm lost in the nose.
You're all right, get in there.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
So much more developed in terms of age than
the previous, the Riesling andthe Semillon.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Even though it's substantially younger than the
other two in terms of age.
So you're saying in terms ofprimary and tertiary
characteristics.
So fruit versus agecharacteristics, I think it's at
about sort of almost 50%tertiary and 50% fruit, or
almost 60%.
It seems to be tipping towardsmore tertiary characteristics,
(44:06):
and that's why it's important totaste your wines every year so
that you can see where thatbalance that you like is sitting
.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
And for me the finish it lasts for a really long time
.
Is that because it's got theoak to carry it?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:21):
The oak's more evident, I think, than the first
one that we had.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
It has a beautiful finish, like it just goes, it
carries, it stays with you.
Yeah, it's quite nutty.
It's super nutty, like ahazelnutty character Yep
hazelnut.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
So for you WCT people , hazelnut is a perfect
descriptor to use to describeChardonnay, because it works for
secondary and tertiary.
You get a tick for bothbasically, so it's a good one to
throw in.
That is a good tip.
It's for those people who aredoing Level 3 and you get marked
.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Hey, I had a question the other day.
You can answer this.
Someone said dried.
We're talking about Sangioveseand we're talking about dried
herbs.
They were like would youspecifically call out different
herbs?
Speaker 1 (45:12):
And I was like it'd be great if you could, but I
don't know if I can In levelthree.
You would have to.
So what would you say what aresome you could use?
I would, for me, age sanchezhas a dried woody herb character
, but even that, so I would thengo.
Okay, what are the woody herbs?
Rosemary, ah, oregano, thyme,sage, which of those?
(45:36):
And my guess it's probably moreon that oregano spectrum maybe
we need to do a whole episodearound herbs.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
We won't even taste wine, we'll just bring in.
We'll just go to like a greenghost up beforehand, we'll just
bring in herbs.
Okay, let's finish up theChardonnay, no one will listen
to us.
Yep, Okay, Look, I mean I thinkwe've covered it right.
The Chardonnay is so beautiful.
We've got three different,really different examples of how
white wines have aged.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, what's your take home message?
My take home message is for me,semillon and Riesling are more
surprising as they age.
They're more exciting.
They give me more of a ooh thanChardonnay.
Chardonnay tends to just kindof know what to expect, but
different regions of reasoningand the stems they have, such a
(46:28):
journey through their ageingtime that's a bit more
interesting than Chardonnay.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, no, it makes sense and I think, yeah, like
the other ones, transform,there's no other word.
They transform in the bottle.
It's almost like magic, it'sbeautiful, whereas the
Chardonnay almost just evolves abit.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, perfect, yeah, okay.
Well, that was Transformationversus evolution.
That was really fun.
I will absolutely do my partfor this podcast.
And keep tasting that wine overtime.
Okay, that is how much you allmean to me.
And keep tasting that wine overtime.
Okay, that is how much you allmean to me, and I will put
myself on the line for this role.
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Thank you, Mel.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Next week we are doing.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
German.
Well, we're going through theGerman ripeness level.
Someone asked I'm not sure whoyes, so we've got a few wines,
but we'll talk about ripenessversus sugar levels in German
wines.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
That's it.
When you message us, sometimeswe follow through.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Well, if Mel sends me the message but she didn't even
write, she just wrote K-S-Athat t and I'm sitting there
going, what the fuck?
And then I realized cabinage,bet leslie, our sleigh's in a
tea truck and beer and oursleigh's in there was an ice
wine, I couldn't put people.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
They're typing them all out.
There's like 14 letters andalso I was almost definitely
gonna spell it wrong, so I waslike I'll just put one initial
of each.
And you're a master of wine?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Surely you'll figure it out.
It's like a perfect crossword.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
I love this.
It's going to be a fantastictasting.
We'll be doing that next week.
We'll see you then.
Until then, enjoy your nextglass of wine and drink well.
Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel.
We're here to help you navigatethe world of wine.
I'm Mel Gilchrist, joined byMaster of Wine Meg Brotman, and
look, every now and then there'san episode that you know.
Sometimes we decide becausepeople ask us to do episodes.
Sometimes we realize a trendand we want to do it, and
sometimes there's just things Ireally want to taste, and today
(00:30):
might be one of those.
What are we doing, mel?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
wants to drink on the weekend.
We are doing how to age wines,or wines worthy whites worthy.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
How to pick a white wine to age.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And because we did talk just a couple of weeks ago
about how, all of a sudden, forthe first time like ever,
there's all these white winesthat are being aged because
WineArc put out their yeah,their collectibles, yeah.
So it felt like a good time totalk about how do you age a
white wine?
How do you even find or choosea white wine?
How do you know if it's goingto age?
So we're going to go into that,but first, meg, tell us about
(01:07):
what you've been drinking.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
So I had a Marchand and Birch Mount Barker Pinot
Noir 2023.
I think it's the first timeI've had a Mount Barker in WA,
wa Pinot.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Really delicious.
I'm not super familiar, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Cherry, you know.
A bit of minerality to it,lovely tannins.
It was just a very drinkable,beautiful drop.
We've been having a run ofquite hot weather here and it
was just something that Ithought was really yummy, and we
had it with egg and bacon pie.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh right, or bacon and egg, depending on where you
are.
It looks like it's worth like$72, meg Okay, depending on
where you are, it looks likeit's worth like $72, meg Okay.
Well, you're like I had it witha pie it was lovely.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm one of the people they did send it to us.
You're not one of the peopleanymore, so I would.
I would look seriously.
$72, it is a very, very goodwine.
All right, it's definitelyworth a try.
Particularly, it should be agood region to go Pinot, because
it's cool climate.
I've never had one from thereand it was a really good
(02:12):
expression and it wasn'tmimicking from somewhere else.
Do you know what I mean?
There was a level ofdistinctiveness about it that
set it apart.
It was good, but I didn'trealise it was $72.
No wonder I enjoyed it so, butI didn't realise it was $72.
No wonder I enjoyed it so much.
It does make sense.
I can pick quality, jesus.
(02:33):
Fun fact, this might besomething that you know about
Champagne shipments have droppedto a level not seen since the
turn of the century.
Jesus, I knew it was low, but Ididn't know that was the answer
.
In 2023, it dropped 27.6million bottles from the 2022
levels and then in 2024 itdropped 9.2% from the 2023.
(02:57):
So overall, it's dropped in thelast two years 50% sort of
levels, still running at 271.4million bottles a year.
But they interviewed a numberof people.
I think this was a drinksbusiness article.
They interviewed a number ofpeople in Champagne and Subway
and they're just like well,really, the world isn't a very
great place at the moment, sothere's not a lot of Champagne
(03:18):
moments.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Dad, and no one can afford Champagne.
That seems more was that tooobvious like what?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
okay, clearly, affordability, um, I mean,
that's cute as well.
Yeah, I well, I'm going withthat, but I think that's more
reason to drink champagne ratherthan less reason that's true
australia.
I mean, we really hit.
You would know better than me,but we really hit above our
population levels in terms ofour champagne consumption, don't
we?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Huge like compared to the rest of the world.
It is insane.
It is something I'm reallyproud of.
If we're going to be patrioticfor anything, you should be
proud that our country drinks alot of champagne.
But I will counter your factwith some good news is that
sparkling wine from Australia isdoing well, and so another
option is that, yeah, people arejust trading down to Australian
(04:08):
, which it's a tough thing rightIn the drinks industry.
We do want people to beattributing value to what we
make and spending.
You know spending money as muchmoney as we can get but at the
same time, it's really nice thatat least that money's going
towards australian.
Yeah, that's great stuff.
Instead, a little bit ofglimmer, yeah, but I I do see
(04:33):
your point about um no occasions, and I sent my brother home
with a nice wine he babysat forme last weekend and I said to
him just drink it like, promiseme you won't put it in your wine
rack and forget about it?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Because people just are like, oh, there will never
be an occasion.
It's like just make an occasionJust eat, just drink it.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
We are all into everyday luxury at the moment.
Yeah, Because you know youcan't probably afford to eat it
as much as you used to or asfrequently.
Yeah, so why not, with your eggand bacon pie, have a $72 bowl
of wine.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, there we go.
I see why you did that.
You brought it back reallynicely, I justified my
indulgence.
Yeah, yeah yeah, that was good.
That was good.
Okay, let's get into it.
What we've done is what we'vegot three grapes.
Why don't you go through it?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So we've got, I think , the three main varieties that
you would age, Semillon beingone, riesling being the other
and Chardonnay.
Now, of course, there are othervarieties Marsans, some
high-level Viogniers, you knowage what other?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
grape varieties.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Fiano.
I'm not a fan of piano, tostart with, um, but there's
really not, because things likeyou know, sauvignon blanc
designed to be drunk in itsyouth, although if you're
drinking a high level sauvignonblanc, say, out of pestac lignon
in in france, and they aredesigned to be aged, but they
don't have that grassiness.
There's much more mineralityand blackcurrant leaf and
elderflower characteristics.
Some of the Sauvignon Zadeh sayPouille Fumée and Sancerre
(06:13):
should be aged, but mostly whenI was actually in Dan Murphy's
the other day, they've got theircellar release and the whites
were Riesling and Chardonnay.
That's all they had on theircellar release.
So it was the collectibles.
To be fair, it was the Lewinsand everything and the Polish
Hill Riesling.
But, yeah, you need, you can ageanything.
(06:38):
Yeah, but when we're talkingabout aging, we want it to
improve and become more complex.
Yes, not even improve, becomemore complex.
And yes, not even improve,become more complex.
I think because I love a youngClaire Riesling.
Yeah, you know, straight offout of the tank, current vintage
2025, drinking that in August.
But I just, I also lovesomething at 2018 and, you know,
(07:00):
2010 and with it, get, get moreof that ageing tertiary
characteristic as we refer to it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
The funny thing for me with white wines is, say,
maybe the big four in Australiawould be Riesling, chardonnay,
semillon, marsan would be themain things for the age and the
first two are awesome, young andamazing and can be enjoyed
their whole life.
But the second two, semillonand Marssan, aren't necessarily
(07:28):
that good, young I will say Iknow there's a more politically
correct way for me to say that,but whatever, personally they
can be really simple and neutral.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Simple, that's right.
They can be very, very simpleand that's why I love the
Semillons sort of half and theMarsans halfway through their
ageing journey.
So you've still got some ofthat primary freshness, that
lemon and lemon piss, and then,in the case of Marsan, that
floralness.
But then you're starting to seesome of the ageing character
(07:59):
come through.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, I do enjoy that kind of like five, six-year
mark.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And I've said it before, if you're going to buy a
dozen bottles, put them downand then just do one a year and
see how they taste.
It's good fun.
It's like a jigsaw puzzlealmost.
You know putting the piecestogether.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Okay, so to get into it, Meg.
What are the specific thingsthat we need to look for if we
want to age a white wine?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Acid.
Acid it's the first one.
I would say not too highalcohol around the between 12
and a half to 13 and a halfpercent, because that tends to
suggest lower ripeness.
Generally it will have moreacidity, if that makes sense
It'll have more natural aciditythan something that it's 14%.
(08:46):
Also, if you move to that sortof 14, 14 and a half percent, we
don't really see a lot ofwhites at that.
But you're moving the fruitlike you look at Riesling.
Riesling goes from green fruitto almost pineapple tropical
fruit as it moves along thatripeness spectrum.
So you kind of want somethingthat's more in that green fruit,
(09:09):
so a little lower.
The other one that we forgot isshennan.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh, shennan, of course, but I just haven't come
up with.
There's not many shennans inthe world, Not in Australia.
No, Anyway, you might find itwhat, mainly vouvray or
something.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, but yeah, in Australia there's not much
Shannon, that you're aging SwanValley, pretty much a bit of
Margaret River now, anyway.
So acid's the first, acid'sfirst, moderate acidity, and
then you want to taste the wine.
If it's sort of simple andfeels dilute, like someone's
dropped a little bit of water init, that's not going to age
(09:42):
well, because that diluteness orlack of concentration of
flavours will become moreevident as the wine ages.
You can't cover a flaw as itgets older.
If that makes sense, yeah.
So you want to hold it in yourpalate and let it feel like it's
got some palate weight, somebody, some concentration to it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
That's interesting, though, because a lot of
Rieslings wouldn't taste likethat no but they've still got
the layers of complexity.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So it's a balancing thing.
Yeah, because Semillon too canfeel quite dilute, and simple on
your palate.
And it can also be quite simplein its flavor profile, but
you've got to think of it interms of the variety that you're
looking at at its time in life.
You want it to be the mostexpressive Riesling from 2025
(10:31):
from the Clare Valley.
And I know, when I've judgedyoung Semillons I have just I
learnt from you know, ian Riggs,broken Wood, one of the
greatest Semillon winemaker,probably their greatest Semillon
winemaker, I think.
Quick little flex, but yeah,yeah, well, the Tyrells, I mean
there's a handful of them butthey're very good.
Yeah, he said, basically you'relooking for some layers of
(10:57):
flavour.
It's not just lemon.
They want some floralness andmaybe some waxy character to the
wine.
So you're looking at thestructure, but you do want that
absolute, as he put it, batteryacid acidity.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You want it to have that searing city, because
that's going to keep the wineand help it to live Okay and
screw cap.
So what about the fact thateverything you've described so
far could be found in someSauvignon Blancs?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yes, okay, okay, as Sauvvin young, and that's the
other thing.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
When reasoning ages, what characters do we get?
Uh like kerosene, marmalade,preserved lemon as sovin young
ages.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
What characters do we get?
Mushy peeps, exactly so youwant it to be getting still be
delicious.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
So there is an element of even if you have
everything, there are somevarieties to just keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, because of a lot of Sauvignon that we see on
the market and I'm not talking,you know, pessac sort of style
or high expensive Sancerre,because their flavour profile is
much more mineral.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
blackcurrant Could it be some fair age.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, I've had a few Okay, they're okay Pouffumé a
few of Didier Degeneau's winesand look, they're interesting.
But I don't think there is theflavour.
Complex array of flavours, yeah, okay, but a Sauvignon Blanc at
, say, $35 is made to be enjoyedyoung.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
That's the whole point of it.
Yeah, and you know Riesling cansettle both of those Semi-young
, I would argue a lot of themaren't made to be enjoyed.
Yeah, that's fair In theiryouth.
Yeah, I mean, I still reallyenjoy them, but they can be
pretty tough little babies.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, they really can .
Speaker 1 (12:43):
All right, so we start tasting.
Okay, let's do it.
So we've got a Howard ParkGreat Southern Riesling 2024.
So we'd expect to see that sortof green apple character lots
of acidity, moderate alcohol,maybe some minerality, white
florals this is quite lemony,yeah, like lemon apple floral.
(13:08):
And we are using Coravin today.
Oh my God, it's all veryexciting.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
It is so exciting Season two or something we'll
use Coravin because we're atyour house and you're all fancy
because you're an MW, so youhave a Coravin, but since we've
been at my house, we've beenwasting quite a lot of wine.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, I could have brought the Coravin over.
You know, I'm just not thatorganised.
No, this is a thing, no, so Melnow has.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Thank you to.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Thank you, coravin, yeah, coravin, for sending Mel
and me some new Supplies.
Supplies, but yes, it makeslife a lot easier because I've
got mine put away.
It's got like a little bagthing and I just can never be
bothered getting it out.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Just the amount of wine that's not going to be
wasted.
True Is going to be phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
This is game-changing stuff.
Yeah, maybe we'll talk moreabout Corbin another day, but I
am very excited, so good pointthere, meg.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
All right, riesling, yep.
So the other interesting thingabout this wine is it definitely
has a higher level of dissolvedcarbon dioxide in it.
Can you feel that slight littlespritzy?
It's not bubbly, it's noteffervescent, it just has a
little tickle and that keeps thewine younger and fresher for a
longer period of time and alsomakes the acid look more
(14:24):
prominent in the wine.
If we shook that, end up inthere.
So when you're fermenting,obviously there's carbon dioxide
formed, and the more you movethe wine after fermentation, the
more of that dissolved carbondioxide moves out.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
So you don't move it.
Yeah, interesting, like it'sCoke, and the more you shake it
it gets flatter Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, but if you think about a Riesling, it's
fermented in tank.
It goes from one tank toanother tank to get off its
gross leaves.
Then it pretty much getsfiltered.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
That's it.
For anyone that doesn't know,gross leaves is the term.
Meg doesn't think leaves aregross.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I don't think have we talked about that before I
can't remember.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Gross leaves are the big thing of dead yeast cells at
the bottom of the tank.
Gross just it's lees is theterm we use.
Gross is, I think, from theFrench because it's grossly the
same.
Well, gross would be big, yeah,big, big lees, big lees versus
fine lees.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
So what's interesting to me, just even before we go
into the ageability of this one,God, it's different to a Clare
or an Eden Valley, isn't it?
It's I to the ageability ofthis wine, God, it's different
to a Clare or an Eden Valley,isn't it?
I find them a lot like softerand more approachable and kind
of delicate.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Definitely it's got that lime characteristic that I
expect from Clare, but there'smore of a light, delicate white
flower characteristic and Istill find there's a real
minerality about it Big time.
But the structure of the wineis not clear.
It doesn't feel like a clear,no, it is more.
It's a little bit gentler, it'salmost like a bubble in your
(16:04):
mouth.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah it's gentle.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, it's very soft and gentle.
It's a lovely wine.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So that's the 2024, and we also have you got it, you
got it, I got it.
See, coravin.
Okay, so while we're pouringthis so the point of Coravin is
(16:30):
basically we've put a new cap onit and then we're putting like
a needle through the top, whichmeans that only a little bit is
poured out at a time, and thenthe machine puts a gas in that's
going to sit on top of the winein the bottle, and what that's
going to do is mean that it'snot going to be in contact with
oxygen, and contact with oxygenis what makes wine go bad slowly
(16:54):
.
But this shouldn't.
We could get weeks months.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yes, they claim three weeks.
Um, okay, so not months, weeks.
Yeah, well, there's differentsystems, but, um, it's so.
The gas is argon.
The argon, being heavier thanair, sits on top of the wine,
but it's also used to push thewine out.
So the wine actually has nocontact with air at all and it
(17:20):
definitely, like the thing isI've never really tested it
because my glass doesn't lastlonger than three weeks yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
No, this says.
With a Coravin Timeless system,you can preserve screw cap wine
for up to three months,ensuring the last glass tastes
as amazing as the first.
We so need to test that.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Okay.
So what are you going to do?
Keep a bottle of wine and then.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Maybe this one, okay, or maybe it should be a red.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, no, you can do that, and then I'm not allowed
to put the bottle in front of it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, we could do that.
Yeah, we'll hold on to it andthen we'll see.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And so, but you need to keep taking more out of it
with the caravan, because thisis.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Well, we'll take a few glasses out.
Maybe this is my question.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
We'll have one.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I want to see your job is so it's three months Of
one glass a month, and thenthere'll be one more Of one
glass a month, and then there'llbe one left.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I reckon you could do it every fortnight, because if
you're only pouring 50 mils,okay, I'll taste a little bit
every fortnight, because you'vegot to make sure that, even to
that last bit, wheretheoretically you would have
more air in contact with it,that it will still stay as fresh
.
Yeah, so your job is to tastethat bottle of wine every
fortnight.
Oh, no Homework, how tough.
So this is a 2014, so it's 10years older and definitely
(18:37):
you've got the colour on it.
And that's the other thing.
When you're buying a wine toage, make sure it doesn't have
any sort of orange or browntinge in the wine.
For a young wine, not for abetrothed sweet wine, you want
it to be really fresh,preferably with a little green
tinge, and this is definitelymoving towards more of a lemon
skin colour.
The green tinge is still there,though.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's more toasty rather than like, marmalade
rather than like cheese.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Edit that out.
Oh, oh, oh, edit that out.
Oh my God, we just had a littlebit of an alien invasion in our
ears.
We're all back on.
The storm is fast, so startagain.
It was like a storm actually.
Yeah, it was.
It was like thunder.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Okay, this is because we record DIY at home and not
in a studio.
So what was I saying?
Yeah, what's interesting to meis that wait, what are we?
2014?
So it's.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Ten years old.
Ten years Well, 11, but tenyears older than the previous
one.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I think I would have expected.
I haven't tasted it yet.
Just on the nose there's not awhole lot of like caramel
marmalade, like it's quitetoasty at this point in its life
.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's toasty.
And the other thing is, withaged Riesling you know that
kerosene smell.
We don't want that to come intoo early.
Yes, so you want that to sortof start appearing at around
that five-year mark.
If it starts appearing at twoor three years in, you drink it
because the wine's just going toend up as that one flavour
profile and nothing else.
This has just got a touch of it.
(20:13):
There's definitely toast.
I get some honey on it.
I get like a quince, a sort ofbaked quince characteristic.
I mean, that may be a vintagevariation, but there's also like
a clotted almost creamycharacter.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, there is a real creaminess on the nose, like a
yoghurt Really interesting.
It is, but once again, on thepalate it is delicate.
It is more delicate than I wasexpecting.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Jesus Working.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
But once again on the nose, it's delicate.
It's more delicate than I wasexpecting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, but I think that maybe that's the region.
Yeah, yeah, because I'm withyou If this was Claire or Eden
Valley, eden Valley would havemore of that floral character
and would be a little bit moredelicate in the palette but
would still have that real finesort of line.
This is a little bit more of abubble in your mouth.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I feel like it's like maybe like when Claire
or Eden like aged theirRiesling 10 years.
It's the equivalent of someonelike bursting through the door
and coming into the house andbeing like hey, I'm an H and
this is more like someone slowlybeing like hello.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yes, this is almost like a woman that's giving
herself gentle Botox, aging Likeshe's slowly shifting into it.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
She's like owning it.
She's owning it, it's good onher, but it's like it's just
gentle.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, that's right, yeah, like Helen Mirren, she
looks bloody fantastic comparedto, like you know, the Nicole
Kidmans and everything withtheir faces just don't move.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I know we're not going to put any women's
appearances down on this podcast, meg Okay sorry.
So this is yes, it's age'saging beautifully, but it's not
um.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, I feel we've done it a disservice, opening it
well, it's under coravin, soyou get to drink it for the next
three months, true, no, but noI don't mean years I disagree
there is not never one point.
It's like they never ring abell when the stock market's at
its peak.
Okay yeah, there's never onepoint where the wine is going to
be perfect.
It's always going to bedifferent and interesting.
(22:40):
That's like aging women it'sfantastic.
You know each step, each era isinteresting.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
It's funny because, like Penfolds famously do, like
their Grange tastings, wherethey use a Coravian, do they use
?
Yeah, they must use coravian,otherwise how are they tasting
it?
Because what they do is theytaste the wine.
They get the wine maker totaste it and then they say to
you oh, you've still got 10years, age it longer or whatever
.
Wow, yeah, do they still dothose they used to.
(23:07):
I remember those, one in sydneywhen I was up there.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I know you can take your grain, replace the cork
when your cork's stuffed.
I'm sure I've heard you couldbe right.
They offer it.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's an luxury brand, but yeah, yeah, but I mean
that's just interesting becauseit is in contrast with what
you're saying, but I love whatyou're saying.
I think it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, I just think it's, yeah, I just, I like the
journey and the discovery.
And then if you do buy, youknow a dozen of these.
I know you've got to wait 12years to see how they're
drinking, but then you know that, oh, it was drinking really
well at six years.
Yeah, or five years, or if youhave the opportunity to buy.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Riesling can go up to like 20 years, so maybe you
need to drink one every secondyear.
30, 40 years, easy, all right,this is fun.
Where do you want to go next?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Semillon or Chardonnay Semillon, okay, I
need to get the Coravin, theobsessive Semillon, the cottage
vineyard, hunter Valley, and thething that we both found very
interesting here was that it'sgot the picking date.
So it was picked on the 27th ofJanuary 2024.
And then we've got the sameproducer, same wine, but in 2018
(24:16):
, picked on the 25th of January2024.
And then we've got the sameproducer, same wine, but in 2018
, picked on the 25th of January.
So, literally almost to the day.
Six years I was just doing themaths in my head a little bit
slow.
Six years' park yeah, that'ssuper cool.
So young, semi-young Lemon,white florals, lemon pith.
I get sometimes an orangeblossom character.
(24:40):
Oh, that's a beautiful nose.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It is such a beautiful nose.
As soon as I smelt it I waslike I take back everything I
said about Tami on being boring.
It is such a strong citrus,it's like a piercing citrus nose
.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I went to a sake tasting on Saturday and we
bought a yuzu sake.
Yeah, they described it to usas the Japanese limoncello,
which did not bode well with mebecause I'm not a fan of
limoncello.
However, it's not really sweet,it's not, I'm not a fan of
limoncello.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
However, oh my God, she must be the only person in
the country.
It's not really sweet.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Ah, it is searing acidity.
So it kind of has that yuzucitrus.
You know how yuzu is likecitrus on steroids.
Yeah, kind of has that yuzu-ycharacter.
I'm all over sake now.
I think we should do a sakeepisode.
Let on, yeah, let's, it's cool.
The thing is with semi-arm, youknow, I know I said that you've
(25:37):
got to have complexity offlavours.
You don't have to have strongflavours and aromas.
They can be delicate, but thereis a lot of going in that glass
.
There's some things that Ican't actually kind of describe.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Oh, I love it, when that happens.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It's almost like wheat hearts wheat germy.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I literally know exactly what you're talking
about.
Like yeah, Do you know what Imean?
It's like a dried somethinggreen.
Yeah, it's like a dried grass.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Hey, I think you're closer with wheat.
Yeah, wheat, it's like a wheatgerm.
Yeah, I think you were closerwith wheat.
Yeah, wheat, it's like a wheatgerm.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, literally wheat like.
Yeah, I don't know, I don'tknow I think I used to pick it.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah, when you run your hand up it.
Yeah, you run your hand up it.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I used to pick it and swing it around.
It's like a wand, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
No, it smells beautiful and and then there's
that lemon.
There is that usually there'swhite flowers, but it is very,
very delicate, but it is sothat's gonna sound like a wanker
, but so enticing like you justkind of want to get it into your
mouth and taste it.
And I know this is going tohave fantastically high acidity.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yes, this is, I mean it's.
Would you say this is classicHunter Valisamion or do you
think it's got a bit of adifferent edge than what you'd
normally expect?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It's a little bit more funky, but I love what it
says on the back the obsessive,quietly spoken and one of the
old guard of Hunter winemakers,patriarch Ian Scarborough.
When I first read that Ithought it read quietly
outspoken and that's kind ofwhat the wine is.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah true .
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, cool.
So there's a lot there but it'svery quiet in its.
It's expressing a lot but it'svery gentle in its expression
11.5%, beautiful.
Yeah, they've only usedfree-run juice, so 450 litres
per tonne, which is low.
Stainless steel, inoculatedculture, ge 16 degrees Celsius,
(27:47):
pretty standard wine making.
And this is the beauty aboutHunter Valley Semillon you can
churn that shit out reallyquickly.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
It's.
It's not super complex, thoughLike there's some interesting,
but it's well.
It's not super intense inflavour, there's not a strong
finish, it's quite crisp.
It's almost like I want to havethis with seafood and Fish and
chips.
I'm thinking tonight Like by apool.
My new thing is in Wessert.
I make people tell me before wego into like the full SAT.
(28:16):
I say either someone has toeither tell me where you drink
it, who you drink it with orwhat you eat with it.
They always go with eat, whichalmost annoys me.
I'm like think outside the box.
Yes, what occasion.
Tell me you're going to watchit in front of maths.
Anyway, we're back on maths.
I can always get us there.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Aren't you supposed to be comparing what the wines
to maths characters?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
No, because last time I tried the chick that I said
was really cool, like literallybefore this episode dropped, she
went a little crazy and I got abit worried.
I'm like, oh no, all ourlisteners are going to, so no
more Maff's opinions from me.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
This has got what I expect young Hunter Valley
semi-young to have, which iscrisp, acidity, lemon, citrus
fruit, delicate in its profile.
But you know that it's going toget more complex and
interesting with age and that'skind of the point.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
All right.
So now we are moving to the age.
So 2018 makes it Six, six years.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Thanks, meg, I've already done the maths on it.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Oh yeah, you did too, Thank God.
That is not my strong point.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Okay, I'm good at maths, except with nines.
But did you know that allmultiples of nines add up to
nine?
Nine nines are 81, eight plusone?
No, yep.
Do nines are 81.
Eight plus one?
No, yep, do it Mind blown?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I don't know enough multiples to be able to do it,
but 18, I guess that works.
Yeah, two, nines 18.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Wow, one, eight, three, nines, 27.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Two plus seven, I don't understand maths, but it's
mind-boggling I know, oh, myGod, yum, I don't understand
maths, but it's mind-boggling, Iknow.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
That's my hunt for goodwill hunting or whatever
it's called Goodwill hunting.
I think I confused that withthe hunt for Red October.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Okay, here's a question Do you think you could
easily distinguish an aged if itwas proper aged like maybe not
Chardonnay take out Chardonnayand Shannon but Riesling Marsan,
semillon?
Do you think they're differentenough aged that you could
distinguish one?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yes, semillon and Marsan don't get kerosene
characters.
Really, they're not terpenevarieties.
Huh, and you need that terpeneto turn into.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
That's crazy.
In my head, Semillon does so.
They need to be what we callaromatic varieties.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Okay, semillon for me is honey, crumpets, toast and
honey.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And didiers, that's exactly what it is.
Yeah, and it doesn't get thatCreamed honey, yeah, creamed
honey.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
It doesn't get that marmalade character Marsan.
I've got to be honest.
I'm not like you.
I haven't spent half my life atShadow to Bilk drinking aged
Marsan from the very firstMarsan that they ever made, so
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But Hunter said I think Marsan is more.
It turns quite creamy, like itgets that real like almost
dairy-made.
I know I did the same thingwhen I tasted it, meg, it is so
good.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Oh my God, it's a baby.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
How old, is it?
Oh, it's so good.
No, not yet.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Six Six, no, not yet Right six, six, okay, again,
it's got that delicateness.
It's got that honey creamedhoney toast.
Still plenty of lemons.
Still plenty of that yuzucharacteristic I get a little
bit of I call them green gaugeplums, depending on what that is
, so like a green gauge plum inthere as well.
(32:01):
It falls a little short at theback, but I think 2018 was quite
a warm year, so although theypicked on the same, almost the
same day, so maybe I'm justtalking at my bum, I don't know
what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
You know how sometimes I can see wines.
Yes, I fully visualised this.
So when I have a sip, I got awave of this.
It's really interesting becauseit's not in the front palate,
it's not super upfront.
I got this wave of this liketoasty, creamy toastiness just
exploded from almost from thebottom of my mouth up and
(32:36):
outwards and around and startedfilling my mouth around.
And then, as it was filling,this other wave of acidity has
just come and shot straightthrough it.
But both of them carried onwhat they were doing at the same
time.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Beautiful it's.
Oh, I've just rememberedsomething, sorry, it is
definitely creamed honey, nothoney.
Oh, absolutely, I don't evenknow what creamed honey is.
Oh, I do just rememberedsomething, sorry, it is
definitely creamed honey, nothoney.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Oh, absolutely, I don't even know what creamed
honey is.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Oh, I do, it's delicious.
No, I know what it is.
What is it?
I think it's just whipped, Idon't know Right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So it's just Well.
It gives it a more creamysensation.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
But it smells different.
It doesn't smell, it smells.
It smells creamier.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, I think that somehow that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Did they not put any butter or anything?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
in it.
Let's see.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Anyway.
So cream tonic, this is classic, semi-young.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Too young.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Oh no, I was wrong, it's been pasteurised, then it's
resulting in a smooth,spreadable texture.
So the heat obviously ischanging, so it's pasteurising.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Is it a similar thing to like melo or something like
you're changing a bio,biological bio?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
bacterial, you must be changing.
I mean, if you're hearing it,pasteurization, it must be um, I
like failed science.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I should stop talking to the masses just tell me to
shut up this.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
This is not a science podcast.
Anyway, back to the seniorCream toddy, yes, delicious,
beautiful, just so good, just,oh my God, it's good.
How much are these wines?
Are they really expensive?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Okay.
So as a young one, it's 36.
Let me, that's not the rightwine, well, okay.
So look, let me pop open one,Because we're organised now when
people send us things.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Mel's organised.
Oh my God, that is such goodwine.
I just want to sit here anddrink now.
Okay, we'll put it up on theshow notes.
Yeah, you'll find out.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Okay, I'll keep looking.
Why don't you start pouring outChardonnay?
Because Chardonnay?
Because chardonnay, funnilyenough, is not one that I have.
I've tasted the least agedchardonnay, oh yes, so maybe
because I don't know I'm.
I just love chardonnay.
I drink it all.
I'm not putting it down.
(34:56):
No old book and all the otherproblem is knowing back.
I haven't had much old Burgundyif that's where you're going,
and it's clearly a sore point.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Okay, the thing is, I think and I'm probably guilty
of this is we probably buy moreChardonnay than anything else.
Yeah, okay, but we also drinkmore Chardonnay than anything
else, so it doesn't really getto the age.
The thing is, if you are goingto age wines, people, you have
got to put them away, because ifyou just put them in your wine
fridge, suddenly the dozenbottles are gone.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yes, yes, absolutely, you're investing for the future
.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
You've got to just forget that they exist and put
them away.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I had these people who, at the end of their website
, came up to me the other dayand they're like, oh, we have
all this nice wine, but now thatyou mentioned that we shouldn't
be keeping it in the light, itjust sits in the living room and
like the light blares at it allday.
Oh, and I didn't want to tellthem.
I was like, oh, I was like, gohome and drink it, just go home
(35:57):
and drink it I didn't tell themit was definitely ruined, but I
was like just keep it in thecardboard box you know, and that
also your glass.
Please, that also insulates itfrom um a little bit of
vibration as well being in thecardboard box, okay, so I
actually can't find the pricethat is selling on, so it might
not be for sale.
It literally might be a go buyit and um, not even on their
(36:20):
website.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
No, Well, that's not very good marketing.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Scarborough.
Well, no, because they might beaging it.
They might have just given itto us, because we're awesome $35
.
Yeah, that's a new one.
I'm talking about the older one.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Oh, you weren't yeah.
Yeah, they might not be selling.
You'd have to approach the yeah.
So it's 35 for the 2023 2024.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
yeah, which is what we had, okay yeah, so you just
got to buy it you and be reallypatient or get in touch with
them directly and see if theycan sell you this but that's the
other thing about it is thatthey it's cheaper for you to do
it.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I know not everyone has a space.
I understand that.
Don't be too precious abouthaving, you know, a wine fridge
and it has to be absolutelyperfect as long as you put it
away somewhere in your housewhere there is fairly constant
temperature.
There's no such thing asconstant temperature in anyone's
houses, but fairly constanttemperature bottom of your
wardrobe floor.
Keep it dark.
Don't keep moving it around.
(37:15):
You'll get the benefits ofaging.
So this is again Scarborough2023, chardonnay.
So this is from Hunter Valley.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Interestingly for me I will put out a pretty strong
statement is I reckon you couldage almost any Marsan Semillon
or Riesling that you buy, anyMarsan Simeon or Riesling that
you buy.
I once got a case of like $12,like Jacob's Creek cheap
Riesling.
That was 15 years old and itwas some of the best stuff I've
(37:51):
ever tasted.
Yep, but it feels like the samedoesn't go with Chardonnay.
So what's going on there?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Okay, so Chardonnay to age well and to have good
complexity and to have lovelyflavors of that sort of nougat,
toasted almond creaminess, needssome oak and it needs good
quality oak.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, okay that costs money.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
So, with Mel's right, you can buy a $20 Riesling,
even a $15 Riesling, and it'llbe interesting.
Yeah, it's not going to be thebest aged Riesling, but it'll
still be interesting.
You're still going to get someof those characters, so
definitely worthwhile.
Mm-hmm With Chardonnay.
If you bought a $15 Chardonnay,it would not be very nice.
(38:45):
So go 30 and over and again.
Hide it away.
I think personally thatChardonnay doesn't age as well
as Riesling and Semiel andMarçal.
It doesn't tend to go as long.
I think for me, peak time formost Australian cool climate
Chardonnays that I've drunk peaktime is around that 10 to 12
(39:08):
years in terms of aging.
After that they develop it'sall just tertiary
characteristics and they losefor me some of the interest.
Okay, that's a good note.
I have had older whiteburgundies.
The problem with a lot of oldwhite burgundies is oxidation
issues, because they use shittycorks and they don't use sulfur
dioxide.
So I mean the 2012 vintage inburgundy was pretty much written
(39:31):
off because of oxidative issues, because region-wide they had a
problem with cork and they hadoxidation.
So for me it's that 10 to12-year mark, anything older.
I'm not going to age myshardies, but a 30-year-old
Riesling or a 40-year-oldRiesling or a 30-year-old
(39:51):
Semillon or a 40-year-oldSemillon is just an absolute
thing of joy, isn't it?
Yeah, they hold the acidity youknow and they're not high
alcohol.
And as the primary fruit dropsoff and you get all tertiary
chardonnay, because it is about13.5%, it's a little bit.
The alcohol starts to sit alittle bit above it.
Yeah, so this wine, I think thealcohol feels 13.5.
(40:15):
It's 13.7, which means it couldbe 14.2.
You can feel the alcohol onthis wine, but it's still quite
struck matchy.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
No, it is.
It's really really lovely style.
I love that.
Yeah, there's like a mineral.
There's freshness, soft.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Hunter Valley.
Chardonnay is very underrated.
It's, you know.
I think it's a great region forChardonnay but it is quite
underrated.
I guess you've got Semillon now, although Cyril's Vat 47, you
know Chardonnay is probably oneof the greatest Chardonnays out
of the region, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
All right, so we'll try.
I always think, when I tastethrough the different Tyrell's
wines, the HVD Vineyard isalways my favourite, I think.
I just like I think it goes sohardcore with its aged
characters.
Oh, absolutely, seems to be myvibe.
Okay, so now we go.
What's the second?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Chardonnay, I've got it here 2019.
So that's sitting at the firstone.
I've got it here 2019.
So that's sitting at 20.
The first one was 2023.
The first one was 2023.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So that's four years, four years difference, but a
total of like what?
Five years age, yeah, yeah,okay, so that's interesting.
So it's not a lot likecomparatively to what we've been
doing today.
So it'll be interesting to seewhat the difference is.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
No, but my guess is you should be able to see, and
also with Chardonnay, it's morevintage sensitive.
Yeah, okay, yeah, I think yeah,because it doesn't have that
natural acidity.
It's not an aromatic grapevariety like Riesling is.
Well, it's quite a developedcolour for a four-year-old wine.
(42:05):
So we had the Semi-Young thatwas 2018 and had no real colour
development.
Look at that.
That's already showing adefinite lemon character.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, you can smell it.
You can absolutely smell thatAge.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I don't know if you can see the colour, but it's
definitely almost a gold, not adeep gold.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
No, but like a Like a wedding band gold, yeah, yeah
it is yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Not white wedding band, gold, nougat, ripe peach.
So there's still some primarycharacter in there.
Oh, there's like a ozone seaspray.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Oh, I'm getting something green and danky, but
in a nice way, not bad Like.
I think it's beautiful.
I'm really bad at when I smellsomething more, something more
like, um, super savory and Idon't know.
I always use the word danky,which I know is bad.
I'll stop doing it, but do youknow what I mean?
There's like yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I can see it, but I think that's what my sea spray,
I think that kind of, is like.
I'm gonna say this like a pond,you know it where it doesn't
have, yeah, but in a good way,in a good way.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
No, absolutely in a good way.
It smells beautiful.
I'm lost in the nose.
You're all right, get in there.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
So much more developed in terms of age than
the previous, the Riesling andthe Semillon.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Even though it's substantially younger than the
other two in terms of age.
So you're saying in terms ofprimary and tertiary
characteristics.
So fruit versus agecharacteristics, I think it's at
about sort of almost 50%tertiary and 50% fruit, or
almost 60%.
It seems to be tipping towardsmore tertiary characteristics,
(44:06):
and that's why it's important totaste your wines every year so
that you can see where thatbalance that you like is sitting
.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
And for me the finish it lasts for a really long time
.
Is that because it's got theoak to carry it?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:21):
The oak's more evident, I think, than the first
one that we had.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
It has a beautiful finish, like it just goes, it
carries, it stays with you.
Yeah, it's quite nutty.
It's super nutty, like ahazelnutty character Yep
hazelnut.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
So for you WCT people , hazelnut is a perfect
descriptor to use to describeChardonnay, because it works for
secondary and tertiary.
You get a tick for bothbasically, so it's a good one to
throw in.
That is a good tip.
It's for those people who aredoing Level 3 and you get marked
.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Hey, I had a question the other day.
You can answer this.
Someone said dried.
We're talking about Sangioveseand we're talking about dried
herbs.
They were like would youspecifically call out different
herbs?
Speaker 1 (45:12):
And I was like it'd be great if you could, but I
don't know if I can In levelthree.
You would have to.
So what would you say what aresome you could use?
I would, for me, age sanchezhas a dried woody herb character
, but even that, so I would thengo.
Okay, what are the woody herbs?
Rosemary, ah, oregano, thyme,sage, which of those?
(45:36):
And my guess it's probably moreon that oregano spectrum maybe
we need to do a whole episodearound herbs.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
We won't even taste wine, we'll just bring in.
We'll just go to like a greenghost up beforehand, we'll just
bring in herbs.
Okay, let's finish up theChardonnay, no one will listen
to us.
Yep, Okay, Look, I mean I thinkwe've covered it right.
The Chardonnay is so beautiful.
We've got three different,really different examples of how
white wines have aged.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, what's your take home message?
My take home message is for me,semillon and Riesling are more
surprising as they age.
They're more exciting.
They give me more of a ooh thanChardonnay.
Chardonnay tends to just kindof know what to expect, but
different regions of reasoningand the stems they have, such a
(46:28):
journey through their ageingtime that's a bit more
interesting than Chardonnay.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, no, it makes sense and I think, yeah, like
the other ones, transform,there's no other word.
They transform in the bottle.
It's almost like magic, it'sbeautiful, whereas the
Chardonnay almost just evolves abit.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, perfect, yeah, okay.
Well, that was Transformationversus evolution.
That was really fun.
I will absolutely do my partfor this podcast.
And keep tasting that wine overtime.
Okay, that is how much you allmean to me.
And keep tasting that wine overtime.
Okay, that is how much you allmean to me, and I will put
myself on the line for this role.
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Thank you, Mel.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Next week we are doing.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
German.
Well, we're going through theGerman ripeness level.
Someone asked I'm not sure whoyes, so we've got a few wines,
but we'll talk about ripenessversus sugar levels in German
wines.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
That's it.
When you message us, sometimeswe follow through.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Well, if Mel sends me the message but she didn't even
write, she just wrote K-S-Athat t and I'm sitting there
going, what the fuck?
And then I realized cabinage,bet leslie, our sleigh's in a
tea truck and beer and oursleigh's in there was an ice
wine, I couldn't put people.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
They're typing them all out.
There's like 14 letters andalso I was almost definitely
gonna spell it wrong, so I waslike I'll just put one initial
of each.
And you're a master of wine?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Surely you'll figure it out.
It's like a perfect crossword.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
I love this.
It's going to be a fantastictasting.
We'll be doing that next week.
We'll see you then.
Until then, enjoy your nextglass of wine and drink well.
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