Interview with Jen Prokop from Fated Mates

Send us a text

Shanna, the generational divide in romance, how to support romance in this time of assault on civil rights, and why 18-year-old boys are not good book boyfriends.

Support the show

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Thank you so much, Jennifer Proko, for joining us.
Of course.
And she's from, of course,everybody knows Fated Mates.
Is there anybody that doesn'tknow?
I don't think so.
Well,

SPEAKER_04 (00:22):
you'd be surprised.
I mean, you know, I mean, ifyou're a romance reader, but not
a podcast listener, likesomebody has to tell you,

SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
right?
You just had a big show in NewYork and you had a couple of big
events, right?

SPEAKER_04 (00:33):
Yeah, like we've had usually that was last spring.
We had like Faded Mates Live.
And then it's also really fun.
Occasionally I'll do things likethis or I live in Chicago.
And so sometimes there are locallike events at romance
bookstores where people aredoing like a panel and I'm there
or whatever.
So yeah, so it's really fun tomeet people in real life or like

(00:55):
talk to different groups ofpeople.

SPEAKER_03 (00:57):
Well, that's super exciting.
I had no idea.
So in Chicago, they have entirestores that are just romance
books.
Like here in the Phoenix area,we have the Poison Pen in
Scottsdale, which is justmystery, but I don't think we
have anything that's devoted toromance.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12):
Yeah.
So there are quite a few of themnow, right?
The first one was the RippedBodice in LA, and then they
opened up a Brooklyn branch.
There are two here in Chicago,one in the South suburbs called
Love Sweet Arrow, and thenanother one in the, like kind of
more in the city, closer to mecalled, I think it's called The

(01:33):
Last Chapter.
And there are quite a few, likeprobably for you all, the
closest one, maybe it would bein San Diego.
There's the Meet Cute Bookshop.
So yeah, now I just would telleverybody if you're traveling
anywhere, like it might bereally fun to check out because
it is really fun to go into abookstore that has all romance,
right?

(01:53):
So they

SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
have the used ones and they're like a selection.

SPEAKER_04 (01:56):
It depends.
Like different stores have adifferent thing.
Right.
So Love Sweet Arrow, which isthe one that was like the first
one here in the Chicago area,has like front list in the front
room and then like kind of hadlike a used book section in the
back room.
Then they moved to a new storeand I don't remember how it's
set up now.
So it just depends on like thestore, I think, and how much

(02:17):
room they have.
So.

SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
You made a list.
Didn't you make a map?

SPEAKER_04 (02:22):
There is, but now I feel like it's out of date and
we haven't, I haven't reallykind of figured out how to
update it, but there are, Ithink the best thing to do now
is probably there's likebookstore romance day every
fall.
And the woman who runs that Ithink probably has like the best
list of like, what are theromance bookstores and then just

(02:45):
independent bookstores that sellromance.

UNKNOWN (02:49):
Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
One day they're going to come back.
I just saw a review onGoodreads.
I was looking up.
I like to look up Goodreads, youknow, one-star reviews.
I go up, I start from one and Igo up to the five.
And I'm like, I got to see whatthe range is here.
And somebody was saying fromShana, I sold just like me.
I don't do this.
I sold when I got married.

(03:09):
I gave away all my romancebooks.

SPEAKER_04 (03:13):
I know.
Or, you know, honestly, though,if you're looking for a specific
book, like one book, right?
Like I remember this one andeBay is probably your best bet
because, yeah.
And I think the thing about eBaythat can be an advantage is you
can actually, usually there'spictures, right?
And so like with thrift books,you're kind of like, okay, you

(03:34):
have the book I want, but do youhave the cover I remember?
And

SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
that's the big thing with romance, vintage romance,
because some of them have newcovers and you want the original
covers if you're going to getthe book.

SPEAKER_04 (03:45):
Right.
So if that's part of like whyyou're interested in finding
that original one, then I wouldrecommend eBay because then at
least people take pictures andyou can see like, oh, yeah, this
is the one I wanted.

SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
Well, speaking of the vintage books, I was stunned
that you did not.
You've never you didn't readthis at 12 years old like
everybody else.
So I

SPEAKER_04 (04:04):
you know, it's funny.
So I came to romance when I was,you know, like a teenager, a
young teenager.
But I started out readingcategory romance books.
So, like, my first romanceswere, like, Harlequin Presents,
and there was, like, a linecalled, like, Candlelight
Ecstasy and Love Swept, right?

(04:25):
And now, I loved historicalromance, too, but I would say
that I, like, I read JulieGarwood.
I read Judith McNaught, right?
Like, so sort of, like, thestuff that was, like, new at
that time.
I've never read The Flame andthe Flower, for example.
So...

SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Kathleen was, you know, she, I like some things
about her books are great, butthere's a lot that is, I mean, I
love her.
I love this book for thenostalgia most in many ways.
So I think a lot of people, it'slike their first book or the
first one they remember.
Right.
But it's, and it could be afantastic story.
Funny, but it will trivia fact.

(05:04):
I don't know.
Maybe you heard that.
She was, Kathleen Wood wasoffered a movie deal for Shana
and she turned it down becauseshe refused to shorten it.
I

SPEAKER_04 (05:14):
mean, it does seem to be a rather long book.
Well, it is

SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
way

SPEAKER_04 (05:17):
too long.
So before we talk about thebook, I wanted to mention that
we, so we had a woman on FadedMaze named Elda Minger.
We were interviewing her becauseas far as we could tell, she was
the first romance author to putcondoms on Paige.
in a Harlequin American romance.

(05:38):
I can't remember the title of itright now.
And so we had her on and we weresort of just like when we ask
people kind of like, what wasyour journey to romance?
And she tells this reallyfantastic story.
I can send it to you guys whenwe're done, the link to the
whole episode where she talksabout, she was working at a
bookstore in, I think, Ohio orIndiana, Illinois, somewhere in

(05:59):
the Midwest where she grew up.
And she Her boss was like, okay,tomorrow it's all hands on deck.
And she was like, why?
What's happening?
And it was that Shana was goingto be on sale.
And she tells the story ofhaving no idea what this book
was.
But like her manager was like,we're not even going to put
stickers on the book.
You have to memorize the skew.
There's going to be a millionpeople in here, women all day

(06:22):
long buying this book.
And she was like, I was socurious that she basically
bought one for herself beforethey sold out.
Because she's like, I knew wewere going to sell out.
And she's like, because I waslike, I have to know what this
is all about.
And so this was her firstromance.
And so she's like, I took ithome.
I mean, and she's like, I wasasking people like, what is

(06:42):
this?
What is going on?
And it's a really amazing storybecause you just sort of forget
that like, I mean, this wouldhave been my mom's generation,
that these books were like trulyrevolutionary, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
I mean, I was, I know I was 12, I think, because
I was, I remember getting introuble in sixth grade.
I was in Sister Mary Louisecalled my mom to tell her I had
this book in my desk.
First of all, 12, can youimagine a 12 year old?
My mom was a nurse, but she's aperson could not bear to talk to
me about my period when I got, Imean, she could not.
So Sister Mary Louise calls herand she's like, okay, I mean,

(07:18):
absolutely nothing happened withthat.
I couldn't bring it.
But that's what I remember.
It's like your first time, yourfirst romance novel, because it
was so huge in your mind.

SPEAKER_03 (07:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Well, it's Shana's

SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
first

SPEAKER_04 (07:32):
time too.
Go ahead, Monica.

SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
I was going to

SPEAKER_03 (07:33):
say, I did not read this book when I was a kid.
I did read some of thehistoricals.
That's how I, I mean, I read theHarlequins too.
I can't remember whichspecifically, but you know,
obviously we've alreadydiscussed this once on our
podcast and Pam knows this.
I couldn't finish Shana.
I did not like the book.
And I'll be interested to hearkind of your thoughts because

(07:54):
while I got my start readinghistorical romances, and I
certainly can understand thecontext in which they were
written, the time in which theywere written, things like that,
it's difficult for me tocompletely take away my
contemporary viewpoint.
And the reason I find it reallyinteresting is, for example,
when you talk about this authorthat you interviewed who was the

(08:16):
first one to mention condoms.
I find these days that even insomething that's taking place in
history where they're not goingto have a package of Trojans, I
can't help but think, why wasn'tthere a discussion of birth
control?
What's going to happen here?
So I'm interested to hear yourperspective on avoiding getting

(08:36):
distracted by a contemporarylens when you read a historical
romance.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (08:39):
Yeah.
Well, and I think the thingthat's interesting is there are
a lot of historical romancesthat do talk about it.
It's just, they're talkingabout, we had an episode, like,
tinctures and tonics and pullingout and, right?
Because, like, when you learn,like, what it really took to,
like, use a French letter, like,a lot of effort and

(09:00):
pre-planning, everybody.
Right.
Right?
I mean, you had to, like, soakthat fucker for, like, all day,
apparently.
I had no idea.
So...
And not income, right?
Like, anyway.
So I do think that that's like areal issue.
And I think that's why, like,when I look back, you know,
here's what I will say.
Like, I think we have thiscapacity all the time when we're

(09:21):
like watching old episodes ofFriends, which is like
incredibly homophobic, right?
Yes.
Perfect example.
Devastatingly fatphobic, right?
Like, and yet we are able tosort of like put on our like,
okay, Shit like that was just onTV back then, but it was the
90s.
You know what I mean?
It wasn't like it was that longago.

(09:42):
Right.
I mean, for us.
And so I think part of it is oneof my theories is that just like
it's a harder muscle to likeflex when it's a book because
it's in your head in a differentway.
You can kind of just like lookaway from the TV or like walk
out of the room for that sceneor fast forward through it.

(10:02):
So I think part of it is like wehave that capacity.
So I think you just have to cometo these books like kind of with
the same thing and and one ofthe things that's been really
interesting to me is readers whoare older than me sort of say
that like you know they wereraised at a time and I think
listen we have a lot of youngwomen currently being raised

(10:23):
with this mindset which isyou're only supposed to have sex
with your husband and you knowyou're not really supposed to
like it right right and I thinkLike, I mean, think about what
abstinence-only education isreally teaching people,

SPEAKER_03 (10:40):
right?
I like to say that people thinkit's sex for procreation, not
recreation.

SPEAKER_04 (10:44):
Correct, right?
And so one of the things thatI've had older readers than me
say is, right, because Pam, youread this book when you were 12,
but it was probably 10 years oldat that point in time, if not
older, right?
Like, it wasn't like a new book.

SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
Right, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 (11:00):
The people who are reading it contemporaneously,
right, like I was in my 20s andI was reading this book or I was
in my 30s and reading this bookwhen it came out, have sort of
said that like the whole idea ofhim, the hero kind of like not
raping her exactly, but likebeing very assertive and
forceful about sex.

(11:21):
And then she could like itbecause it really wasn't her
doing anything.
I have had a lot of women say...
You're talking in general now,right?
Yeah, I'm talking in general.
I'm not talking about thecharacter.
I've had a lot of women who arereaders say there was something
very powerful in that for me.
Because it felt like if youdidn't have to make the decision
to do it, you could at leastenjoy it.

(11:44):
Whereas if you had to make thedecision to do it, it
automatically meant you werebad, right?
Oh, yeah.
Does that make sense?
So I just think it's reallyinteresting to think about The
way to get past, like, maybeyour contemporary mindset is to
think, who was the ideal readerin, what was this, 1974?
Is that correct?

(12:05):
I think that's correct.

SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
Yes, 72.
72

SPEAKER_04 (12:09):
or 74, right?

SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
No, that was Flaming the Flower.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (12:12):
Yeah.
So that's, I don't know.
It's just like a reallyinteresting.
And also just listen, this is atime when, well, it's really
interesting going back to EldaMinger, right, who are our
author.
I also had a hard time withShanna.
Like I was kind of like, are youkidding me?
Like she's going to blackmailthis guy into marrying her,
right?
So she can get one over on herdad.

(12:34):
But like Elda was like, I lovedher.
I also had a really hard likerelationship with my father who
thought he got to tell me whatto do with my life.
And I was like, oh, I guess so.
Whereas I was like, this iscrazy, right?
Cause I never had that.
Or I was very young when I waslike, it's my life.

(12:54):
Right.
So I thought that was a reallyinteresting too.
When I relistened to it thismorning before we got on.

SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
Yeah.
And we write, we, we make themour own.
When we read, we are making ourown movies in our head.
I mean, I don't touch on howmany times the hero that I read
or the main character.
No, I mean, is a completelydifferent physical description
in my head.
Yeah.
than what the author has putdown.
And my mind just skips over itbecause I read about him and I
have a vision in my head andthat's it.

(13:21):
It's like he could be differenthair color, different,
completely everything.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (13:26):
Well, I would say I, and I'll be interested, Monica
and Pam, to hear how far yougot.
I mean, I only read the firstthree chapters, like that first
70 pages.

UNKNOWN (13:36):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 (13:36):
I have a feeling I would time out when she gets to
this, like, Caribbean island.
Like, I think the colonizationfactor would be, whoa, I can see
it coming.
And I'm kind of like, I'm notsure I want anything to do with
that.
So it's interesting, too.
Like, I find myself, myself as areader, like, very sympathetic

(13:59):
to what the lives of women musthave—white women, probably, if
I'm being honest, right— asreaders must have been like at
that time, but sort of like theracism, homophobia, fat phobia,
the things that still kind ofhurt a little.
You know what I mean?
I feel those would be ones whereI was like, whoa, right?

(14:22):
We read Gentle Rogue, and I waslike, oh, okay, so he's like a
full-on colonizer, you guys.
It's a

SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
lot.
It's just a lot.
I was going to say, you bring upan interesting point about the
fact that Shana comes in andshe's going to bribe this guy in
prison to defy her father.
And I think that's interestingbecause I wonder if that was
appealing to the readers of thetime who didn't feel like they

(14:49):
had sexual agency, but saw Shanataking control of her life
against her father as a way thatthey could relate to, especially
in the 70s and feminism andwomen starting to have more
opportunities.
I wonder if that was one ofthose things like, well, I can't
be the boss in the bedroom, butI can relate to this woman who
is trying to take a standagainst her asshole dad.

SPEAKER_04 (15:10):
Right.
Like, I'm going to be in chargeof my life, right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
That's a plot point that was incredibly weak, I
thought, because what's to stopthis?
She's married to him from adate.
He wanted her to get married,allegedly, to give him an air.
And she comes home and says,well, we were married for a day
and he died.
Sorry.
And he's just going to, he wantsto stop him from being like,
well, I've got to back up.
You're, you know, I mean, thatdidn't make sense.
Yeah.
But also, and Kathleen Ortiz wasa conservative.

(15:37):
You can see it in her writing.
She was a super Republicanconservative.
Yeah.
Well,

SPEAKER_04 (15:43):
I

SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
mean,

SPEAKER_04 (15:45):
I think that it's also, so I will tell you what I
was really fascinated by in thebook.
I was really fascinated by therole of like the servant, her
kind of bodyguard guy.
What was his name?
Pitney.
Pitney, Pitney.
I was like, Pitney, Pitney.
Because I was like, he's reallyher, he cares about her, right?

(16:07):
And it's also really interestingbecause the other thing I spent
a lot more time thinking aboutwas if this book was written
down, I mean, it wouldn't beprobably, but if it was, It
would be like her point of view,his point of view.
And so like that, those sort ofinsights from tertiary
characters just doesn't reallyhappen that often anymore.
And I really liked it because itwould be very easy to see him as

(16:30):
just her father's like lackey,right?
He's just there to enforce whatthe father wants.
But you really get that hetruly...
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
Only her maid.
Yeah, no.
Right?
Later on, she has a maid, butthere's no mother, sister.
No mother,

SPEAKER_04 (17:08):
no sisters, no cousins, no friends.
These are like women on theirown in a man's world.
And that was super, supercommon.
Even all of Julie Garwood, a lotof it was like that, right?
You know, it's just like, thisis your lot.
Like, I mean, a lot of JoannaLindsay was like that.
It was like...
And honestly, what isinteresting to me is...

(17:30):
I think a lot of romantasy islike that.
These books that are so popularnow are really, in some ways,
hearkening back to that, like,you're one beautiful, perfect
baby girl, and your job is to beperfect and beautiful, and all
the men will admire you.

(17:50):
You know what I mean?
It's very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
Ultimately, what made me not finish, Shaina,
was...
wasn't that I couldn't take offmy contemporary lens.
It was that I really hatedShana, that I could not
understand why this guy would befalling over himself for this
brat.
She was just a petulant idiot.

(18:13):
Her tits, Monica.
It was her tits.
I mean, and I guess that must beit, man.
She must have had a golden pussyor something, but oh, I could
not get past that.

SPEAKER_04 (18:23):
Yeah.
I mean, her, I was reallyinterested in The other thing I
was really interested in wasjust like the writing itself,
which I actually liked.
I'm not saying that in a badway, but it was just like far
more.
There was like a lot more oflike the world, right?
We're going to describe this.
Yes.
The carriage.
We're going to describe thepeople who were watching the

(18:45):
wedding take place.
We're going to describe thelittle inn you stopped at,
right?
Yeah.
And like the part where like shegets caught on his, you guys, if
you could see me right now, I'mlike, like acting out the part
where her like dress gets caughton his button or whatever.
And then like rips away.
And I was like, the descriptionof her breasts was like,

(19:06):
honestly, super intense.
And I'm not sure in a good way.
It just felt like I'm so used tothinking of romances being about
the female gaze.
And I was like, that's notwhat's happening here.
It really isn't.
It was very much rooted in hispoint of view.

(19:26):
And like the description of herat that moment felt I had a
really hard time with it aswell.
So.

SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
Yeah.
But Burke is like the perfectguy.
He's too perfect.
He's got no flaws.
He's good at everything.
He is a murderer in jail, Pam.
I

SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
just wanted him to have something.

SPEAKER_03 (19:51):
I was saying, Rourke is your ultimate book boyfriend.
Like, he's your guy, right?
Out of all the books, he's yourbook boyfriend.
Who, me?

UNKNOWN (20:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
Well, no, almost.
I mean, he's very close, buthe's too perfect.
Very close.
But I like Colt Thunder.
I like Rourke Beauchamp and ColtThunder from Savage, you know.
I like, you know, a little bitof, but Rourke is, yeah.
But interestingly enough.
It's okay.
No judgment.
I have known guys in real life,though, like that, that just
We're obsessed with thiscomplete bitch that never gave

(20:23):
him the time of day.
So it is a phenomenon.
But this book, I heard, wasbased on, somebody said she
lifted it.
Well, she probably heavilyimitated it.
It was a book called Lord Johnnythat was written in the 50s by a
guy.
And it's almost the same exactplot, except it's flipped from
the guy's perspective.
It's all about him.
And there's like almost no sexor romance.

(20:45):
It's there, but the same deal.
He goes to the jail, death row,makes him the offer.
And everyone loved it becausethey loved the swashbuckling and
the adventure stuff, but flippedfrom the guy and that part.
which I thought was interesting.
So you don't know about the partwhere she sends him to the
pirate island to die?
I don't.
I'm sorry.

(21:06):
I'm

SPEAKER_03 (21:08):
not mad about it, but I don't.
I didn't make it that fareither.
And I was even listening to it.
I was listening to it and Istill couldn't

SPEAKER_04 (21:16):
make it.
I mean, it is almost 700 pages.
Like this is like KindleUnlimited length, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
Well, the thing that I know people love it.
The thing that I...
it gets me about this book is alot of people that don't have a
nostalgia attachment to it, orjust coming to it.
I look on Goodreads and they'llsay, they immediately say, Oh, I
DNF this book.
Cause he raped her in the first,you know, right.

(21:40):
And I'm like,

SPEAKER_04 (21:41):
yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (21:41):
that's like, I think this is an instance of that's an
unfair, like knee jerk reactionbecause they had a deal and that
was the deal.
And she completely lied aboutit.
And yeah, that was the nature ofthe deal.
It's not like he bought herdinner and he expected something
from her in the end.
He was upfront with, you wantsomething important to you.

(22:02):
And this is, my name is equallyimportant to me.
And this is the price.
And he made a good, it even saysin there that she liked it, you
know?

SPEAKER_04 (22:10):
Yeah.
Well, that's back to that, likepart I was talking about, right?
Like, she's like, I don't wantthis.
But then like, once it'shappening, she's like,

SPEAKER_05 (22:16):
yeah,

SPEAKER_04 (22:17):
it's kind of, I am liking it, right?
It's, I was interesting to methat they get interrupted,
right?
The way that

SPEAKER_00 (22:23):
that happened.
Right at the time that they did.

SPEAKER_04 (22:26):
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that also, I wasvery interested in how
uninterested the book was inexploring, like what it would
have been like for him to be inthat cell for however long.
Right.
Like, I guess he gets out andthere's the part where she, like
that maid is shaving him andhe's like happy to be taking a
bath or whatever.

(22:46):
But, And this makes sense,right?
Like, people didn't knowanything about, like, trauma,
right?
Like, Kathleen E.
Woody was not like, let me talkabout the PTSD he would have
from being in solitary

SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
confinement.
Well, it's not like he was heldfor 8,000 years by a demon and
had to chew up his own leg toget

SPEAKER_03 (23:01):
out.
True, true, true, right?
I also think it's part of thetime because even if we knew
about trauma, certainly a 1970s,you know, a 1970s man, even if
she were writing a contemporary,He wasn't going to show it.
He wasn't going to talk abouthis feelings and go about it in
a healthy manner.
It was, you know, suck it up, bea man, move on, and be a pirate.

SPEAKER_04 (23:21):
Yeah, exactly.
So, I mean, I was reallyinterested in that.
And I think this is why, like,Monica, I had a hard time with
Shana.
Like, she was so, like, it wasinteresting the way that she,
like, treated him.
Like, kind of like, how dare?
Like, how dare?
And I was like, well...
don't you have even like amoment's worth of empathy for

(23:42):
what this man has gone through?
Right.
Or like, yeah, you know?
Yeah.
And I think it's reallyinteresting though, because I do
think that the book goes prettyhard to sort of explain why she
might be like that.
Right.
And I thought it was reallyinteresting that there was this
kind of throwaway line at onepoint about how her mother used

(24:03):
to be the one who would likelitigate the, you know,
essentially between her and herfather.
Right.
Their mother was the one whocould, like, calm things down.
And once her mother had died,there was no one to play that
role.
And I think it's then reallyinteresting that, like, you
know, she's to us now, like akid.
She was 20.

(24:24):
Right.
Right?
Of course she's a brat.
She's a wealthy, very wealthyyoung woman.
A beautiful one.
And so I found myself wondering,like, what is The ending for
her.
You know what I mean?
Well, I don't know if you wantto spoil it for your listeners,
but yes, I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
Well, I mean, she is basically an astronomical bitch
throughout the book until theend, the very end.
And then she has to change herheart.
She grows up.
She has a baby.
She gets pregnant and, you know,she becomes a mature adult.
Sure.
In the last, like, two chapters.

UNKNOWN (25:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
The Scarlet O'Hara.
The Scarlet O'Hara method.
Well, they're on the island.
So at one point, you know, shesends him back to prison.
And he gets, as luck would haveit, taken back to the plantation
anywhere where they live becauseher father hires bond servants,
aka, you know, we'll call thembond servants.

(25:25):
Yes.
lets them work off their debt.
So this guy comes and picks themup and brings them, ships them
back.
So he got on this boat ride andlike stocks are there until they
develop their romance.
So in the middle of that wholedevelopment, at one point she
gets mad at him because she'sjealous because she thinks he
was stepping out on her whileshe's not giving him any.

(25:47):
Right.
And she has Pitney who, knockthem out and put them on a boat
that like a pirates, like theyjust take them.
So somehow the way that playsout is she winds up on the boat
with them.
Ha ha.
Right.
Yeah.
Great.
But how do you get past that?

(26:08):
Like, how do you wind up in lovewith somebody who like sends you
off to die?
Right.
Right.
She didn't even know whathappened to him, but she winds
up there.
So on this, while they're onthis Island, she had to like
learn some things there, whichshe deserved.
But, and he gave her, he gaveher a couple of big speeches of
like, you think, listen, I'vehad it.
You think you're God's gifts towomen.
You think you are, you think Iwould have picked you if I had

(26:30):
any, you know, and she's like,he just like dressed her down.
So there was a couple of reallygood, Would have been really
great if he had followed throughon it.
Yeah.
He just kept up with her.
But it was really nice.
It was refreshing at that point,at least here.
Yeah.
Because it was just reallybrutally worded, like you would
have real dialogue, like youwould have really said to

(26:51):
somebody, you know, like.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (26:55):
Well, and that is an interesting, like, have you ever
read A Kingdom of Dreams byJudith McNaught?
Remember this one?
I don't think so.
There's a very similar, I think,vibe where like and it's just
different now.
Like age gap is different now.
Right.
Like so I think that's the otherthing that's interesting.
So it's like, you know, she's 20and he's a grown man, like a

(27:18):
grown ass man.
And, you know, they're theseyoung girls are like selfish and
silly and reckless and careless.
Right.
They're all Daisy Buchanan.
And then what happens is at somepoint.
you know, he's just desperatelyin love with her anyway.
And it's kind of always like herbeauty plus her moxie, for lack

SPEAKER_03 (27:42):
of a

SPEAKER_04 (27:42):
better word.

SPEAKER_03 (27:43):
I was going to say pluckiness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good word for it.

SPEAKER_04 (27:46):
And then it's like, there's a point where basically
they get like a grow up speech,like grow up.
You want to be an adult?
Grow up.
Right.
And I think it's reallyinteresting that this was like,
if you think about it broadly,like, is this what I mean,
probably what marriage was likefor a lot of these young women,
right?

(28:06):
You went

SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
right from the family home.
They had credit cards or bankaccounts.

SPEAKER_04 (28:10):
Right.
You had limited jobopportunities.
You could be a nurse or ateacher or whatever.
And so I do think it's likeinteresting that the arc of
these stories for these youngheroines is like becoming an
adult.
Not like becoming an equalpartner in your relationship
with this man, but like becomingan adult.

(28:31):
Mm hmm.
So but again, that was the time,I think.

SPEAKER_03 (28:36):
Yeah, I guess I sometimes I'm a little bit
bothered by the fact that I feellike sometimes what makes these
women, quote unquote, become anadult is having a child.
I'm like, oh, there.
Oh, yeah.
There's the patriarchy.
Like, there's your your purposein life.
You finally got knocked upagain.
That's part of that contemporarylens applied to these stories.

(28:56):
And yeah.
But, you know, you've brought upsome really good points.
I need to put myself more in theshoes of the author and what her
lived experience would have beenas she was creating this story.

SPEAKER_04 (29:06):
Yeah.
Like, right.
Like, what's it speaking to?
And I mean, and that's it.
It's like now being a motherdoesn't make you a woman.
Right.
Like, we wouldn't say that.
That's insanity.
Well, and people put off being amother so much longer.
Right.
I mean, you know, I remember, Imean, my mom had all of us by
the time she was 26.
I have two brothers.

(29:27):
Right.
OK.
I mean, I had one when I was 30,but a lot of people now are
having kids closer to 40.
Yes.
So I think we can't say anymorelike, oh, yes, here's what will
turn you into a woman.
You will get married and havekids and you can't be the baby
once there is a baby.
So now you're grown up.

(29:47):
Right.
But yeah, I think

SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
it's something else, too, because plus, if you want
to see older women heroines whocan't have babies, it's like
what?
What else?

UNKNOWN (29:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (29:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Or a romance that's not, you know, like a life
story, like a romance novel foran older woman.
That's not even going to be anissue.
So what could you do?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (30:05):
So, I mean, I think it's, I think it also, like, I
think so for me, it's also,like, you can read older books
like this and think, we've comea long way, baby.
Literally, right?
Like, I know they're trying topush us back, but I also think,
and it's really interesting thatwe're talking about this because
I, of course, had not read thatfar, is like, this would have
also been happening right whenRoe v.

(30:28):
Wade was.
Yeah.
Coming.
Yeah.
Being decided.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when you think about, youknow, and Pam had talked about
like Kathleen E.
Woody was being a conservative.
And I mean, I think a lot ofromance is like small C
conservative.
It's about making families andbeing right.
Like, like the family unit atsome level.

UNKNOWN (30:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (30:49):
And so it's interesting to me though, to
think that, just as women weregetting the right over their own
bodies in one way, a lot ofthese books are instead really
reinforcing the idea that, no,it's having a baby that makes
you a fully realized adult.
And that's not true for Rourke,right?
It's true for Shana.

SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yes, true.
And at one point they go back toAmerica and they meet his
family.
He's got an all-American nicefamily and it's actually, it's
really nice scenes there, but,you know, they're just a
wholesome family tight-knit, youknow, honorable family.

SPEAKER_04 (31:24):
Sure.
Do you think that some of theappeal of the plot then is like
the globe hopping?
I do.
Which would have been verydifferent to do in the 70s,
presumably,

SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
right?
The adventure is a part of it.
She took it too far.
She really made it repetitive.
She needed to cut like a chunkof this book because she
repeated this adventure, thesame thing too many times.
But...
The element itself is, that'swhy we love, Monica and I both
really like Savage Slender, partof it for that adventure factor.
So I think that is great in aromance where they're some kind

(31:57):
of adventure.
In the Bodice Rippers, a lot ofit was travel.
They did end up going around theglobe or on ships or whatever
across the country.
Well, and I

SPEAKER_04 (32:07):
think that would have also been, I mean, I'm like
really trying to think and Idon't know the answer to this.
I'd have to ask my mom.
I wonder if that's likesomething that like men got to
do on their own, but women couldonly really do with a husband.

SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Yeah.
A lot of them were home at thetime doing line.
You know, I mean, that wasthere.

SPEAKER_04 (32:28):
Yeah.
So I think the appeal of like,you're going to travel the
world.
You're going to see the wholeworld.
I think is probably anotherreally big part of this.
That's like harder for us tomaybe rep or it doesn't seem as
like big of a deal anymore.
Maybe for some people.

SPEAKER_00 (32:44):
Now we have billionaires who are going to
pay her mortgage.
Sure.
Well,

SPEAKER_03 (32:48):
and you know, this is maybe not a good example.
One of my passions is I love tolisten to old time radio and
they talk about how some ofthese old time radio, they go to
these exotic places and that thelisteners at the time They'd
never been to those places.
They hadn't seen pictures ofthose places.
It was very exciting.
Now, obviously, in the 70s,people traveled more than during

(33:09):
the golden age of radios, the30s, 40s, early 50s.
But to your point, a lot ofthese women, they didn't have
those cruise ships now where yousee like 26 countries in seven
days or whatever.
Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 (33:22):
Yeah, so it is interesting to think about
Right.
Cause I had not real, I mean, ifthey're starting at Newgate,
it's in England, they're on the,you know, going up and down to
get married or whatever.
Like they, you know, they go tothis Island, they go to America.
I mean, that's pretty extensive.
And I do think that that wouldbe a really, I do think, like

(33:42):
you said, that's, listen, theappeal of the billionaire
romance is very similar, right?
Like you'll see the world, youwouldn't have to worry about
money.
And I don't think it's, theymake such an, it's really
interesting.
It's like, Okay, if we'retalking about like, okay, Shana,
like the whole idea is like thisman is going to maybe push you
to have sex, but you're going tolike it in the end.

(34:03):
One of the things about thesebillionaire romances that feels
almost like similar in a weirdway is every single one of these
heroines, if it's like a Right.
A woman and a man like he's thebillionaire always.
Right.
Is she's like it's a very clearshe's not a gold digger.
She's not after him for hismoney.
That's just like a coincidence.

(34:25):
In fact, you know, she won'teven let him pay for whatever.
And

SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
I feel like even though she's homeless and
starving, she's not like I

SPEAKER_04 (34:34):
have my pride.
Right.
And I do feel like there is away in which that.
strikes some sort of similarchord in me, right?
Like that's not what you're init for.
But if I guess he's going to payyour fucking mortgage or he's
going to, you're going to havesex in the carriage, you're just
going to have to lay back andthink of England.
I don't know.
Right?

(34:55):
Yeah.
So I do think there's likesimilar ways in which when we
get like the most powerfulelements of the patriarchy and
romance, often the, like thewoman is kind of like, if I
must.
Right?
Yeah.
if I must, I can potentiallyenjoy some of this, but it
wasn't really why I was here.
Right.
And that's interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 (35:17):
Yeah.
You know, that is true.
Yeah.
I am super, you know, modernliberal minded about sex stuff,
but I can tell you there's beena couple of contemporary books
I've read lately where the onlya couple where the heroine was
very sexually forward and Shewas out there doing, you know,
like, you're not my first.
I'm doing all this stuff.

(35:37):
She's not shy.
She's not virginal.
And I was a little bit jarred.
I'm like, and for me, I mean,I'm not someone that judges that
kind of thing.
And I was like, this is a littlebit weird because even now
that's just.

SPEAKER_04 (35:50):
Yeah.
Romance is very conservativethat way.
Right.
It really is.
And that's what's hard.
Cause I, well, I mean, yeah,

SPEAKER_03 (35:58):
that's true.
Cause I read one recently andthis is not the exact same, but
in terms of, I was raised in asmall C conservative family.
I was like the lone liberal.
They were like, I don't knowwhere you came from.
But I read a contemporaryrecently and it took place in a
high school.
And these kids were like seven.

(36:19):
I don't think he might have been18.
She might have turned 18.
But I'm pretty sure when itstarted, they were like 17.
And it was very explicit.
And she was very much asintuitive.
And I struggled a little bitwith that.
And I don't know if that'sbecause I am a parent of
children who are about that ageor my upbringing or what.
But I was like, ooh.
And again, I'm not king shaming.

(36:39):
You know, I finished the book.
But I was like, this is a littlehard for me.

SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
For me, every all the teenagers had to.
I was very young.
Everybody in my high school thatI know was having fucking each
other.
So, I mean, like rabbits.
So, I mean, to me, that's that'sjust like normal.
When Monica was saying that'snot my story, I was like, what?

SPEAKER_04 (36:59):
Right.
Really?
Really?
I you know what it is for me?
Those it's not that I I actuallyalways really appreciate when
people.
in romance have like thatbackground.
Like, yeah, I was having sex inhigh school or whatever.
It's in these books wherethey're like, you know, Gods of
fucking.
And I'm like, come on.
Yes.
18-year-old boys.
They don't care.
They don't care about anything.

(37:21):
You know what I mean?
That's the part that alwaysseems like this young person
needs a lot of practice beforeI'm

SPEAKER_03 (37:27):
going to accept that they are.
Right.
You read those scenes and you'relike, that went on a good four
minutes and 30 seconds longerthan it would have.
Like, without question.

UNKNOWN (37:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (37:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
Well, I'm telling you, there was a reverse age gap
one that I read.
And, you know, they can't makeolder women heroines.
So in order to keep her age toteacher, in order to make this a
reverse age gap, he was 18 andhe was like her.
No,

SPEAKER_04 (37:53):
no.

SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
And I'm like, well, he's bossing her around.
And this kid is 18 year old.

SPEAKER_04 (37:59):
I'm like, I can't teach her student is no problem.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
But and a dom, you know?

SPEAKER_04 (38:06):
No,

SPEAKER_00 (38:07):
absolutely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 (38:09):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (38:10):
right.
They're like, come on, theycan't even clean the B off the
C.
Just make her old enough to havea relationship with somebody
who's not a child.

SPEAKER_04 (38:17):
Yeah, I mean, and so like the thing, going back to
Shana or Shana, however we'resaying her name, I actually
don't know if I'm saying itcorrectly.
I

SPEAKER_00 (38:25):
say Shana, but I know everybody does it
differently.

SPEAKER_04 (38:28):
Yeah.
I think the other thing that waslike really interesting to me
about the book, about like, youknow, like kind of that first
part that I read was I keptthinking like, how did he get
out of Newgate for like a night?
You know what I mean?
Like, like I really, when itfirst started and she was in his

(38:50):
cell or whatever, I was like,wait, are they going to get
married inside the prison?
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (38:56):
What's about to happen?
They paid the guard.

SPEAKER_04 (38:59):
Right.
But it was like the thing thatis so crazy about it is, and
this is to me was probably theunforgivable part.
Like back to Monica's point ofview here is they could have
just let him go.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (39:13):
Right.
She didn't even let him make arun for it.
That's what pissed him off.

SPEAKER_04 (39:17):
Yeah.
Like I kept thinking, okay, soyou're going to obviously not
forgive.
You know, you're going to breakthis deal or whatever.
But you could have just let himgo.
Like that man.
Or am I to believe that Newgatehas like the best recording of
prisoner?
You know what I mean?

(39:38):
Like that guy could have beenlike, I don't even think anyone
would have cared.
And I did find myself thinkingthat to me seemed quite
unforgivable.
Like not the breaking of the.
like her word, but like sendinghim back.
Why didn't you just

SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
let him go?
Especially him, all cleaned upand hot and everything.
I mean, he's not like some ogre.

SPEAKER_04 (39:58):
Right.
Give him a bag of money and say,we'll say that you hit us over
the head and ran away.
You

SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
know what I mean?
I guess there would

SPEAKER_04 (40:06):
not be a story then, but I

SPEAKER_00 (40:08):
really did find myself.
Then he would have been like,hi, I'm coming back.
He comes back and stuff on hisear.
He's like, I thought you were,you know, that's a story.

SPEAKER_04 (40:15):
That is, yeah, that's true.
So I did find myself really,really pretty shocked that that
was how it turned back out.
That they're like, yeah, you'regoing back to jail now.
Like, that's so messed up.

SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
I don't know.
I was furious at her at thatpoint.
She's just a terrible person.

SPEAKER_04 (40:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
That's why these people that, I think, you know,
well, there's a whole othertopic about the rape fantasy
stuff and the rape stuff andhow, you know, I think a lot of
people on Goodreads, you know,they'll just jump knee-jerk and
just throw that out therewithout thinking about anything,
you know, and they talk aboutsafety and it's, you can't do
that.
You have to have the context ofthe story, I think.

SPEAKER_04 (40:57):
Yeah, I think that, and the context of the time,
right?
I mean, I'm not, I'm notdefending it.
I am saying like, I understandit, I guess is what I'd say,
right?
I didn't enjoy it necessarily.
I wasn't like, you go, man.
But I was like, it's reallyinteresting though, because like
Catherine Coulter is I think wasmore on this side was writing

(41:18):
plots like this.
Julie Garwood was not.
Right.
And I did find myself thinkingabout like that teenage reading,
like the authors I was moredrawn to.
And I just found myselfwondering, like, maybe that just
wasn't for me even back then.
Right.
I mean, I'm sure I must haveread books where I was like,
man, this isn't my author.
But like, you know what I mean?
So I think the other thing is, Ithink there was even at the time

(41:40):
a great diversity in the kind ofstories that were being told.

SPEAKER_00 (41:43):
Yeah, there was.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
There's a lot of books that Ididn't keep that, you know, I
curated.
The collection that I savedthrough the years was just my, I
read the same handful of Avonauthors or, you know, I mean,
there was a lot of books that Iwould pick up and be like, I
don't want to read that one atthe time, you know, back in the
day.
So I know I wouldn't like themnow.
I pick them up now.
I'm collecting them now becauseI'm writing about it and I'm

(42:06):
like, oh my God, some of themare great.
I mean, I'm the one on the campwhere anything goes and I defend
a lot of stuff, but then I'llpick up some of these and I'm
like, holy cow.

SPEAKER_04 (42:16):
Yeah.
And so part of me is like, Ithink it's also really
interesting because I findmyself thinking a lot about
like, who are the authors that,like I read, what I remember is
I love Julie Garwood and I loveJude Devereaux.
Did you guys read JudeDevereaux?

SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
Yeah, I did.
I couldn't tell you what I read,but I definitely

SPEAKER_04 (42:33):
read her stuff.
I like really remember lovingher, but like she doesn't, I've
never revisited her the way Ihave with like Julie Garwood.
I reread Julie Garwood stillroutinely and reread her

SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
a lot.
How many authors do you do?
Because I find there's likethree or four.
There's only a handful ofauthors that I still read over
and over through the years.

SPEAKER_04 (42:55):
I reread a lot of Lisa Kleypas.
I'm a big, you know what it is,y'all?
I'm a scene rereader, right?
Meaning I'm not rereading wholebooks, but I like will read that
one scene where like whatevershit goes down.
over and over again.
And

SPEAKER_03 (43:09):
that is so the beauty of like an e-reader
because, you know, search andfind.
And now I know exactly what, Ijust got to pick the right
keyword.
And now I found that scene.

SPEAKER_04 (43:17):
Yes, correct.
Correct.
So I guess I would say it ishard.
Then I'm surprised at thingswhere I'm like, I love this
book.
This is my favorite.
And I'll never have any urge toread it again.
And a book that I thought forwhatever reason was just It's
fine.
Will be one that I will findmyself rereading.
So I feel like the thing aboutromance, too, is you don't

(43:39):
really know what you love forfive years.
That's my theory.
That's true.
Right?
Yeah.
So, Monica, how far did you readin Shana, then?
Like, did you...

SPEAKER_03 (43:51):
I made it to, I think, just before he goes on to
the pirate boat.
Like, they were in theCaribbean, and he's flirting
with the local...
you know, local girl, thebaker's daughter or whoever she
was.

SPEAKER_00 (44:07):
Fishmonger's daughter.

SPEAKER_03 (44:08):
Yeah.
And I was just, I was at thatpoint, I was like, she is so
annoying.
I just, I can't go on.
Yeah.
You know, and I also think thatmy reading appetite has gotten
so much shorter.
When I was 18, a teen, it wasnothing for me to read 600
pages, 800 pages.
I mean, I'm a horror fan.

(44:29):
I loved Stephen King, all thoselong ones.
And now I'm like, oh God, it's300 pages and it's even an audio
book and I'm still struggling.

SPEAKER_04 (44:40):
Well, there's also a lot more competition for our
time, right?
I mean, think about like therewas TV and books, board games
and puzzles, but like You know,there's so much things now that
you can be like, okay, do I wantto read the 600 page book or do
I want to go doom scroll orwhatever?
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (44:59):
But do you think that romance novels would
benefit from good authors makinglonger books?
I mean, do you think it wouldhelp

SPEAKER_04 (45:07):
the story?
You know what?
Here's what I will say.
One of the things that Iactually think, okay, I'm not a
runner.
I'm going to say that.
Somebody said something reallyinteresting to me once and I
have applied it to romance.
which is this person was sayingthat they they love to run a
half marathon.
They're like, that's my that'smy distance.

(45:27):
And I was like, oh, like, right.
Like, this is like the perfectdistance for you to run.
And I think that there areauthors who have a distance,
meaning like right.
Like K.J.
Charles writes a great bookbetween like two hundred and
twenty five and two hundredfifty pages.
Like they are tight.
They are perfect.

(45:47):
And, you know, the same thing istrue, I would say, for like Ruby
Dixon.
And then you read like a longerbook by Ruby Dixon and you're
like, it feels a little flabby.
Right.
And so I guess I would say, Pam,I don't I think there are
authors who are writing long.
I think there's a lot of longwriting authors now on Kindle
Unlimited because you're gettingpaid by the page read.
That is a logical consequence.

(46:09):
Right.
I just want people to turn asmany pages as they can.
But I just think people shouldwrite the distance that's right
for them.
I don't know that longer booksare better books necessarily.
And sometimes when authors, youcan see them forcing themselves
to write longer and it feelslike it doesn't work to me.
I

SPEAKER_03 (46:28):
think it also depends on what type of reader
you are.
I don't mind formulas andtropes.
And I'm the person who likesHallmark movies and cozy
mysteries and Murder, She Wrotebecause I know where it's going.
It's predictable.
And so for me, a long one, Imight get bored.
But for other people, yeah, theyreally do want the more

(46:52):
exposition and descriptions ofthings that aren't maybe
necessarily just related to theromance.
I have a joke.
I say that if I'm reading a bookand nobody's murdered or has sex
in the first hundred pages, Idon't want to read it.
You know, I'm just done.
Yeah, right.
You're like, I need something tohappen.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (47:09):
And it's got to be wet.
Fine.

SPEAKER_03 (47:10):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (47:10):
I appreciate that about you.

UNKNOWN (47:13):
I do.

SPEAKER_00 (47:13):
So I have to wait till the 50% mark to see
somebody kiss.
I'm like, I'm not, I'm not going

SPEAKER_04 (47:18):
there.
Yeah.
I do not enjoy a slow burn.
I'm not interested.
Right.
I'm like, these are grownups.
Like, right.
Like, I think that's one of thethings that I find right now is
like, I feel like we, I'm notinterested in virginity pretty
much in any way anymore.
I'm too old for that.

SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
Finding one without that these days.

SPEAKER_04 (47:39):
Well, and I think, I think in some ways we've gotten
rid, I think that we have gottenaway from that, especially in
contemporary romance, right?
Right.
But I think what's weird aboutit, though, is it's like people
still act like they are, right?
Like, it still takesthree-quarters of the book, and
you're kind of like, these aregrown people.
Like, I just don't understandwhy they're letting a doorbell

(48:01):
ringing disrupt them.
Yes.
But, you know, that's just me,and that's fine.
So, you

SPEAKER_00 (48:08):
know.
So you read romance, and youedit it, and...
We've been doing it for a lot ofyears.
So, I mean, we always hear somuch about the negative, you
know, the people don't likeabout the vintage romance, but
is there, is there anything fromthose books that that era that
is worth carrying over thatwould make our books better?

SPEAKER_04 (48:25):
Listen, I think the writing, I mean, there were
times the writing felt a littletoo formal for me, but like the
writing itself was great.
Right.
And sometimes I read books nowand I'm like, Oh, come on, this
is shitty writing.
I know you're not supposed tosay that, but sometimes the
writing is bad.
And I don't know if that'sbecause people are working too

(48:47):
fast.
And I actually think that iswhat it is.
But I also think that one of thethings I, more than anything
else, I'm a reader, right?
And I'm reading a lot ofdifferent things.
My primary fiction reading isromance.
I read mysteries and thrillers.
I read Don Fiction.
Like, right, I read The NewYorker.
I read my local neighborhoodnewspaper, right?

(49:10):
And sometimes what I think morethan anything else, though, is
that what the books aresuffering from now is like, if
I've only read romances writtenin the past five years and all I
read is that, if that, then thebooks are going to suffer for
it, right?
And I think one of the thingsabout like just reading more is

(49:32):
you're just going to get Adifferent kind of idea.
You're just going to getdifferent idea.
Authors will just get differentideas in the mix.
Right.
So, I mean, even like in thisbook, I was really interested
in, like I said, the perspectiveof the secondary characters, but
like at both the wedding andthen also at the place they

(49:53):
stopped for a meal.
there was like an another couplethere right like i thought it
was it was far more forgiving oflike secondary characters on
page right there's other peoplehere what are they doing what
are they thinking are theyobserving the world felt really
fully realized in a way i thinka lot of current romances don't

SPEAKER_03 (50:17):
do you think and i liked it yeah because I feel
like these days at acontemporary, if you have a
secondary character and theyspend any time with them, you
know that they're setting themup for the next part in the
series, right?
It's like, oh, it's time forher.
They're just introducing herbecause it's going to be her
story next.

SPEAKER_04 (50:34):
Right.
As opposed to just like, no, theworld is full of fucking people.

UNKNOWN (50:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (50:40):
You know what I mean?
And they might be watching youand having an opinion about
what's going on, and you mightnot want them to be watching
you, or you do, or you might beacting a certain way because
they're here.
And I thought that that was, Ifound myself thinking like,
that's not a bad thing.
Like I said, the world felt afar more full and interesting.
And I don't know if I need 700pages of it, but I did like it.

SPEAKER_00 (51:04):
But do you think that had to do with a lot of
more third person POV

SPEAKER_04 (51:10):
back then?
Yeah, I think probably, right?
I also am on record pretty mucheverywhere.
I really struggled with readingpresent tense.
It's funny, a lot of peopleassume I mean first person.
I'm like, no, I mean presenttense.
Because I think that, and look,there are authors who do this
really well.
But I think that one of thehallmarks of present tense is it

(51:35):
like the immediacy of just likesomeone filtering
instantaneously.
But what you're then missing islike the retrospective ability
to stop and be like, let meexplain where we are.
Like, right, let me describe.
And, you know, the truth is whenpeople stop and do that in
present tense, I'm like, what'shappening right now?
You're in mid conversation andI'm supposed to read like two or

(51:57):
three paragraphs about youdescribing what's going on.
Like, how fast do you think?
Right.
Like, I literally have likecognitive dissonance when that
happens.
So, yeah, I do think probably ithas to do with it being in third
person versus first, becausethen the reader, I think.
And don't get me wrong, KathleenE.
Woody was never even would havethought about writing a book in
present tense like that wasright.

(52:19):
But yeah, there's no pressure tostop and think, what can my
character be filtering through?
They can just stop and be like,let me describe Newgate Prison
to you.

SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
But also, there are details about how another person
that they're interacting with,physical details that Right.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (53:09):
What is about to happen to me?
I mean, and again, I'm notsaying it's impossible because I
think there are great people whoare writing in present tense who
I'm sure have found ways to dothis that aren't going to feel
right.
I think I always want to becareful.
One of my things, my most hatedthings is when people's primary
attack against romance is thatlike it's bad writing.

(53:32):
Because I feel like that'sunfair.
That is absolutely not true.
So I also try to be reallycareful that I'm not just
talking about like what badwriters do.
But I think there is a lot ofpeople writing really fast in
romance.
And when you're writing fast,something's got to give and
probably it's your prose.
You just can't polish it.
It's the same way.

SPEAKER_00 (53:53):
Right.
I mean, even Ruby Dixon said shewrote, she produces a lot
because she writes like shedoesn't have another job and she
can write like 12, 14 hours aday, but she writes the kind of
stories that can be writtenfast, you know?
And you can't write a historicalromance of any length in, you
know, a month.
Well.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, I think

SPEAKER_04 (54:12):
it's, yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I think the other thing too, isI felt like I did find myself
thinking that there was like a,probably a lot of research that
she did.
Right.
You know, that description ofNewgate to me felt very real.

SPEAKER_00 (54:26):
That was a pride of all those authors that are
historical.
I remember reading about howthey did all this research.

SPEAKER_04 (54:34):
Yeah.
And I think that's the otherthing is like they're building
the genre so that like the restof us now, when you get a book
that starts in Newgate, right?
Like I just read a Julianne Longbook I really liked that started
in Newgate.
She's in Newgate and actuallyher husband comes to get her.
It's The Beast Takes a Bride.
I loved it.
But like I found myself thinkinglike when I was reading this,

(54:56):
oh, like Julianne Long can kindof, I don't know, like assume we
know what Newgate is becausewe've all read it.
50 books to start a new game.
We've read The Highwaymen byKerrigan Burn, and we've read
this, right?
So at some point, you can justsort of like romance readers
plug into the shorthand.

SPEAKER_03 (55:16):
That's interesting that they kind of laid the
foundation and have savedcontemporary authors maybe some
time.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:24):
I guess we're not going to ask about the threads
thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 (55:28):
What's the threads thing?

SPEAKER_03 (55:29):
Well, I was just going to say, you know,
obviously in the past, I don'tknow.
couple weeks.
It's been a lot of people comingafter romance, specifically smut
from Moms for Liberty, notunderstanding that just because
a book has cartoon cover doesn'tmean you shouldn't do your job
and look at what maybe yourchild is reading.
Two, I don't remember thewoman's name.

(55:50):
She was a popular bookstagrammerwho just really shit all over
romance readers.
And I'm interested in your takeon a couple things about what
does this say in our societyabout Is that type of book in
trouble?
Or the flip side that I sawsomeone say with regards to the
books to grammar was, you know,romance readers are very
passionate and they engage.

(56:10):
And was this just, was it justclickbait?
This girl got amazingengagement.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 (56:15):
right.
I think it's probably both and,right?
I would like to say, I thinklike the state of Oklahoma this
week is going to be introducinga law that makes it essentially
illegal to, have a book withpornography and that includes
any book with sex on page.
Wow.
So there's romance.

(56:36):
Oklahoma.
No, but like all over Oklahomaor like the state of Oklahoma.
Right.
Wow.
So, yeah.
So you, that is real.
Like the threat from bookbanning and the threat to
romance, I do think is real.
Right.
Right.
Because of these laws.
And I think because of the, likethe culture wars, you know,

(56:57):
which Christian people, youknow, Christofast just sort of
seem to be winning right now.
Yeah.
So I, you know, now what willthat actually mean?
I don't know.
Right.
Does it mean that there's noKindle store in Oklahoma
anymore?
Right.
Like, I don't know that becauseone state passes a law like

(57:17):
this, all of them will.
But if this is a law that makesits way up through the Supreme
Court, Right.
And then the Supreme Courtdecides, oh, yeah, this is true.
And they're going to enforce itnationwide.
So like that.
I mean, I think what we havelearned in the past two weeks,
Pam, is they can do whatever thefuck they want.

SPEAKER_03 (57:37):
They absolutely.
So I haven't practiced in almost20 years, but I am an attorney.
So, of course, the first thingthat pops into my head is I was
like, well, that's an issue withinterstate commerce.
You know, can one state.
But to your point.
Yeah.
I mean, it really depends if.
The Supreme Court ends upsaying, no, that's totally fine,
and throws away years ofjurisprudence regarding

(57:59):
interstate commerce.
Sure.
I mean, look at Pornhub andFlorida.
Yeah, right.
Now, Pornhub just basicallysaid, we're just not going to be
in your state.

SPEAKER_04 (58:09):
Yeah, we won't be in your state, right?
Now, I think the thing that willbe, and I think what you're then
seeing is many romance readersright now are like, probably the
safest thing to do right now isbe buying your books and paper.
Right.
I mean, because that's the part,like, and that's the other
thing, I guess there's no partof me that's really super

(58:31):
worried about a world whereromance doesn't exist because
everyone can just come to myhouse.
Like they're right.
Like use bookstores still exist.
These thousands and millions ofthese books are in print and in
use bookstores.
And like, they are not going tofigure out a way to hopefully.
Yeah.
Right.

(58:51):
Do that.
They're

SPEAKER_03 (58:52):
not breaking down your door and literally burning
your books.

SPEAKER_04 (58:55):
Yeah.
But will they, you know, they'relooking to shutter libraries.
They're successfully doing thatin some places.
They are looking to do thisstate by state.
Now, how long will this last?
I don't think it will lastforever, right?
I feel like it's going to bevery hard to put that genie back
in the bottle.
But I do think that romancereaders...

(59:16):
would be smart to do a couple ofthings.
One is like, like I said, if youcan buy books in print,
especially your favorites,right?
If you can back up your digitalbook library and know how to do
that, then do that.
That one's a little trickierbecause of like DRM and all that

(59:37):
stuff.
I think that there are tutorialsprobably all over the internet
that are like, here's how youstrip the DRM off and do this.
But I think more than anythingelse, like romance readers, I
would recommend that you becomelocal, like become active in
your local school boards, inyour local library boards,
because they're fighting firstabout children's literature.

(01:00:00):
But it will come for us.
We're next.
Right.
And so.
Even if it's sending an email ora letter to your local library
saying, I'm a romance reader andI use your library and this is
an important genre and there'snothing wrong with it.
So please keep stocking it.
We love what you do.
Thanks.
Because that is how your librarycan say to its board, look, here

(01:00:23):
is our constituency here, thebooks they want to read.
So

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:27):
that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:28):
I'm going to do that today.
Yeah.
And those are things that arevery low stakes, right?
Everyone can do that.
Everyone can say or go to yourlibrary and say, I'm a romance
reader and I want every patronhave the right to read.
How can I support you?
And then do what they tell you.
That's a great idea.
Yeah.

(01:00:48):
And you're building community,right?
You're talking to people.
You're saying, I'm here for you.
I'm not telling you what I thinkneeds to happen.
What do you, the person whoworks here, think needs to
happen?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:57):
Well, and you know, the last time our library had
banned book week and they had adisplay, I actually checked out
a few of those books, notbecause I wanted to read them
per se, but because I wanted toshow that people are checking
these books out.
You know, people want the book.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:10):
Yeah, exactly.
So yeah, use your local libraryand tell them you support the
freedom to read.
That's what you can do.

UNKNOWN (01:01:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:18):
So.
That's amazing.
Well, thanks for having me, youall.
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:23):
I was going to say that's a perfect button.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:26):
I just want to say one positive, ask you for a
positive that we spend so muchtime talking, we're hearing
about negative things aboutromance.
What is something that we lovethat is good about romance now
today?
I

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:37):
think the best thing about romance today is just how
much bigger the pool is, right?
Like, so it used to be thatthere was category and
historical, right?
And then by the nineties, therewas like single title, but like,
you can read anything you wantnow in romance, right?
If you're like, I would like toread about, I don't know, a

(01:01:59):
time-traveling hockey player,there is a book for you.
Yes.
And I think that that is what Ilove the best.
It's just like, and because somany people are self-publishing,
and look, that is both ablessing and a curse, but the
blessing is like hearing from alot of voices that maybe would
not have made it through likewhatever the gatekeeping is of
traditional publishing.

(01:02:20):
So I feel like for me, it's justreally being able to find
anything I want and really feellike any heat level, any type of
story, any type of character,you know what I mean?
It's all there.
And I love that.
That's great.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.
Thanks for waking up so earlyfor me because Sarah and I are

(01:02:43):
recording later and I'm like...
going to eat some lunch and thengo do that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:47):
Yeah.
Yes.
Thank you.
So I always love talking to you.
This was really great.
Thank you.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.