Savage Thunder by Johanna Lindsay

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Pam’s all-time favorite romance novel that Monica really enjoyed too. This is the one with the infamous sex on the galloping horse scene. 

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
Welcome to 80s Ladies Read Romance.
I'm Pam Lange and I read andwrite romance.
And I'm Monica Gelman and I justlike to read.
And this book that we're talkingabout today is Savage Thunder
and I'm so excited because Ilove it.
It's one of my favorites fromJoanna Lindsay.
She is one of the mostwell-known romance writers and

(00:32):
she died a few years ago, butshe wrote a ton of books.
She wrote about a book a yearand this is Not all of them were
great, but this is one of myfavorites.
So I'm excited to talk aboutwhy.
And you said you liked it,right?

SPEAKER_02 (00:45):
I did.
Looks like it was published in1989.

SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
First published.
Okay.
Now the cover, who did thecover?
I forget who did the cover if itwas.
I love clinch covers a lot.
And I, this one is okay becauseI was never a Fabio fan and I
don't like a couple of thingslike his Ugg boots.
But I mean, I like, I love thetitle and the cover's okay.

(01:10):
But what I like about it is,okay, so first of all, I have to
say that Johanna Lindsay is, herstyle was kind of light.
It was kind of fluffier thancompared to other historical
romance authors of the time.
She wasn't heavy into thehistory.
I mean, she didn't, a lot of theauthors at that time were so
proud.
It was like a history book.
They were really proud of theirhistorical detail.

(01:31):
And they got into a lot moreexternal storytelling And they
were sometimes more hardcore insome ways about the alpha male
and the problem.
But Joanna Lindsay keeps things,this book, I think she keeps
things moving.
And the history is just, thehistorical details are just
peppered in, which is the way Ilike it because I'm not here for

(01:53):
a textbook.
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
agree.
And it didn't have a lot of, Thelong, flowery exposition, the
lengthy descriptions of things,because I'm guaranteed to skip
past that.
So yeah, I thought that the pacewas really good.
By the first chapter, I wasdrawn in.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
and I was surprised, because typically I like the
more hardcore books.
I was like, I'm surprised I likethis one so much.
So structurally, I think as aromance novel, I think, like you
said, the pacing is great.
My favorite thing about it And Idon't know if a lot of people
today probably won't, I don'tknow if they'll agree, but I
love the themes, the things thatshe has in there, all the

(02:33):
romance novel themes that Ilike.
There's the, you know, thehandsome alpha hero.
He's not too much of a dick.
He's got a chip on his shoulder,but he's not a jackass or an
idiot.
His reason for having a chip onhis shoulder is like the main
obstacle and one of the mainobstacles in the plot because

(02:54):
he's, He doesn't want to getinvolved with white women at all
because he was like, almost diedbecause of one.
And that's described in thefirst chapter.
Before that, he was pretty welladjusted and everything was
great.
And then that happened.
But the cool thing is that this,so that's the first chapter.
But then the cool thing is thesecond chapter goes right to the

(03:15):
heroine, Jocelyn is her name.
At the same time, in the sameyears over in England, her
situation is being set up, whichis she married this, impotent
billionaire duke just longenough to leave her his money
then she has to leave englandafterwards to escape the

(03:36):
consequences of that i

SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
was going to say before we keep going this might
help our listeners who aren'tsuper familiar i was going to
read this is the back cover okayokay says jocelyn fleming was a
feisty flame-haired aristocratnewly widowed after a shockingly
brief marriage to an elderlybritish lord Wealthy and titled,
yet aching with the pain ofunexplored desire, her restless

(03:58):
heart led her from polite Londonsociety to the perilous beauty
of the untamed American West.
Colt Thunder was a rebel, aloner, impossibly handsome,
brutally unpredictable.
The Cheyenne blood runningthrough his veins burned hotter
than the blistering Arizona sun.
In a bold and merciless land,their vastly different worlds

(04:18):
collided.
The wild desert stallion and theuntouched English rose.
igniting an unstoppablefirestorm of frontier passion
that threatened to consume themboth.

SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
It's nothing like a vintage romance novel blurb.

UNKNOWN (04:34):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
I want to say, touching on something you said,
you said it has all the tropesyou like, but one thing you just
mentioned, I liked where shedidn't go with a trope.
When Jocelyn marries this guy,right?
How many times have we seen theyoung thing goes off and marries
the super old rich guy and he'sawful.
He's terrible to her.

(04:56):
And this guy was kind.
He was sick and she came to carefor him.
And I liked that.
I was so ready for it to be yourtypical poor little rich girl.

SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
And

SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
I think that that really made her more of a
dimensional character, again,where she came to care for him
she hadn't planned to, but shedid.
And I, like I said, I liked herso much better because I felt
like she was kind of a realperson and not just a

SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
spoiled girl.
That's what I was going to say.
These seem like real people, youknow, in a way that a lot of
romance characters don't.
Right.
And she is, they're both prettywell adjusted for romance
characters, and especially her.
She is.
I don't know if you would callit anachronistic at all.
I mean, it doesn't really seemlike it unless you think about
it maybe, but she seems likevery well adjusted.

(05:45):
This story starts in 18, what,78 or something, which I guess
is pretty close to modern times.
What time is?

SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
1878.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
But her attitude is very, the thing is, that's a
problem with a lot of othercontemporary historicals now.
I see they always write, it'sannoyingly anachronistic where
they put current eventspolitical views and dialogue and
vocabulary in their heads.
It's not appropriate, but thisfit seems to fit the time, but
she's very kind of modern and inher attitude, but it is nice.

(06:19):
That's a whole nother.
Sometime we have to talk aboutthat, that whole theme of
marrying the old geezer formoney and how it's different for
men and women typically.
But yeah, so she has to leavethe country and she leaves for,
so She's 19 when this happens.
And so for three years, she'straveling the world just to hide

(06:40):
out from the relatives that areafter her in England.
But then when she reaches 21,the villain is still after her
because now he wants to, hecan't for a different reason.
Now he's trying to kill herbecause he can't get his money.
He's mad.
There's not a lot of flaws in myopinion about this.
And the ones that are, I canmostly forgive because I like
the rest so much.
But the villain is supermustache twirling, and

(07:04):
incompetent to an unbelievabledegree.
I mean, it just, it's kind ofdistracting because there's no
way any villain would be thisunsuccessful for that long.
But it's important, I guess, Imean, I don't like to see bad
things happen to my characters,but I mean, it's just not, I
mean, he fails continually andOne of his failures is how they

(07:26):
meet, how Colton Jocelyn meets.
She makes it to the West.
I can't remember why, if theyjust got bored.
She was going to the West to-She wants

SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
to be a farm.
She wants a horse farm.
Right.
Yeah.
Because she's an expert

SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
horse

SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
person.
Leader person.
Yeah.
Her father bred horses, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (07:46):
The other hilarious thing is, especially about the
villain, is they are travelingin this circus caravan.
of like this huge, I don't know,turquoise carriage and like a
uniformed guard of like, I don'tknow, a dozen or more men,
carriages, supplies.

(08:06):
I mean, they're just, can't missthem anywhere they go.
And I mean, this would be in thenewspapers if it was like really
happening.

SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
Well, and she's traveling with her sassy best
friend who

SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
I like.
Another good thing I want tomention, I want to ask you
about, you might have somethingto say about that because The
friend is so cool.
I mean, the relationship iscool.
The friend is, I don't know, inher 30s, I think.
She's still young.
She's kind of described as anolder matron, but she's also
still given a young enough.
She still has a sex life.

(08:39):
She's not described as an old.
She's got a side romance.
She's got a side romance, whichwould have been great to see
some of that as a side plot.
But her advice, theirconversations about now.
Jocelyn wants to, by this time,she wants to lose her virginity.
She never got to with the Duke.
And the other thing I found kindof implausible was she wanted to

(09:01):
be careful who it was becauseshe didn't want to get anybody
to find out that the Duke had anaffliction of that nature.
And it's like, how could anybodyever know?
I mean, that was kind of hard tobuy.
But she didn't meet anybody thatshe really wanted until Colt.
And this part I love because thewhole thing from here on out

(09:21):
reminds me of, I don't know whatthe kids do today, but even in
the 80s, if it was so open andwhatever, it was still not cool
for the girl to make the firstmove.
And we spent a lot of time inangst trying to get the guy to
make the first move when theydidn't.
And that's a lot of what she hasto do because she knows she

(09:44):
wants him and she can't justcome out and say it.

SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
Right.
That's another thing that Iliked about this book is it felt
like a modern woman, but in ahistorical setting.
So, you know, she has agency.
She has no problem saying, youknow, I want to have sex.
I'm going to find somebody.
I'm not finding someone tomarry.

(10:09):
I'm not looking for a husband.
I'm perfectly fine with it beinga one night stand.
And there's no, slut shaming.
There's no looking down uponthat.
Her friend's basically like,great, let's get you laid.
That is really unique to yourtypical 80s historical heroine.

(10:31):
Oh, I'm a flutter.
You're kissing me.
Just those ones drive me nuts.
I used to like them, but theydrive me nuts these days.
i like that that you knowdespite and it was actually it's
pretty unusual considering shewas only 19.
well

SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
by now when the story starts she's 21.

SPEAKER_02 (10:49):
true but even 21 to be as to be as self-assured of
yourself and what you want andwhat you're willing to do to get
it i mean that that's prettyimpressive

SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
and to help her though she was an only child and
she grew up isolated so the onlychildren tend to be more that
way but still true for that timeperiod and she was set up in the
story to be able to do that in away by having unlimited money
and a widow status so she kindof had some aids to help her
right you know be in thatsituation but yeah that was

(11:19):
really refreshing it was cooland i kept reading every time i
read the dialogue theconversations with her and her
friend vanessa it was it wascool it's like oh i love it i'm
like and it was funny becauseyou can just picture i can
remember in the 80s and their90s being like Plotting, you
know, about guys and that we hada crush on and how to make

(11:39):
things happen.
Right.
I don't know how different it istoday, but it's I could identify
with a lot of that.
And so when they meet, herescues her.
I have no problem with rescues.
I love it all day long.
And their courage was turnedover because of the another
attempt by the villain to killher.

(12:02):
And she's separated from herentourage.
And so it's just her and Vanessain the carriage.
It's tipped over and they can'tget out.
And so Colt Thunder comes.
He's out there for his ownreason.
He's far from home because he'schasing after his younger
brother.
All of a sudden, he's like, youladies want out?
You want a hand?
And she can't see him becauseit's, you know, sunlight and

(12:25):
dark.
And he pulls her out.
And this is the other thing Ifound a little bit implausible.
Okay.
She's from England and maybeshe's not hip on world events,
but she was, I wasn't sure it'splausible that she would be that
completely ignorant of theIndian situation and the
prejudice situation.
I mean, not that she wouldn'tbe, I wasn't surprised.

(12:45):
I bought that she was notprejudiced or racist, but just
that she was so unaware of whatit even the situation was.
By now.
But anyway, so the deal is shedoesn't understand at all the
animosity between NativeAmericans or Indians and white
people.
And so he's naturally is.

(13:05):
And to her, she's like somestrange dude in the middle of a
foreign desert is like offeringto help us.
Are you here to kill us?
What's going on?
And he thinks she is beingracist, you know, looking down
on him.

SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
Especially based on his past experience.

SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Yes.
He was dating this white woman.
This was right after the warshad ended and the Indians lost
everything.
Things were settling into thewhite man was just taking over
everything and the reservationswere starting.
He escaped the reservationbecause he's half white and his

(13:42):
sister has this rich cattleranch.
She helped him assimilate andtransfer into a white society,
which he did, and he was fine.
And then this white woman he wasdating found out that he wasn't
all white and almost got himwhipped to death, which was
brutal.
I can't believe she describedthat in the detail.

(14:03):
It's

SPEAKER_02 (14:04):
a really

SPEAKER_01 (14:04):
graphic scene.
It was so gross.
I mean, this sadisticbullwhacker having...
And in real life, he would nothave survived that, it sounds
like.
But in the

SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
story...
I love in the story when hissister comes, well, his sister
comes to like save him.
It's very, I'm going to use theword like swashbuckling, right?
There's a whip, but she's like,I mean.
That was what I liked was thiswas a romance for sure.
There was adventure to it.

(14:33):
There was mystery to it, right?
Like who's this guy who's afterher?
Where is he?
That type of stuff, will hecatch up?
I liked that rather than purelybeing about the romance because
I think that seeing thosecharacters in the context of
mystery and adventure made themmore whole or more fleshed

SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
out.
And it wasn't too much.
It was just enough to support.
The romance was still thecentral focus.
And that was a great moment.
I was so mad at Chase too.
Her husband and his sister, theycome barreling in with all their
ranch hands on the horse and shehad the gun.
She was ready to blow his handoff.
And her husband knocked her armaway.

(15:15):
And she's like, what the fuckare you doing?
Why did you do that?
She was so mad.
And I was mad too.
I'm like, what is wrong withyou?
Exactly.
You should have let that one go.
But then they wouldn't have beenable to have other events happen
at the end of the book.
So before then, he had no issue.
He was fine.
But now he has avoided whitewomen ever since for three

(15:38):
years.
And he's had this understandablechip on his shoulder.
And he started dressing againlike an Indian and just letting
everybody know to stay away fromhim without having to, you know,
just on site.

SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
Well, I was going to say, he also has a job to do,
right?
When he comes and rescues her,he's trying to find his runaway
brother, his half-brother who's,you know, fooling around.
So I think a lot of him is kindof like, lady, I don't have time
for you.
I'm already on a job to find myrunaway brother.
And by the way, also, I'm notmessing with white ladies
anymore.

(16:10):
I love that.

SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
He's so funny about that.
He's like, not my business.
She starts babbling and shewants to keep him there.
And he's like, lady, it's noneof my business.
I

SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
liked that because he didn't come off as a dick.
I mean, a little bit of a dick,but not too bad.
At least it was understandable.
And it was kind of funny when hewas like, you know, I don't have
time for you.
But what I liked was herreaction.
I mean, she wasn't happy aboutit.
She kept trying to go after him.

(16:43):
But I'm going to contrast thisto our last book that we talked
about.
I have forgotten the characterbecause I disliked her so much.
But she would have thrown ahissy fit like some little
spoiled brat if a handsome manwas not

SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
paying attention.

SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
Whereas Jocelyn was more like, but I could use your
help.
But she didn't.
get just huffy like, how dareyou not talk to me?
And I liked that.
Again, she was a likablecharacter.
I didn't want to throw her away.

SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
And it was like, she was in a real bind here because
she can't, it's hard for her to,she can't get away with saying
she needs him that much becausehe knows she's got like 700
people coming to your aid.
Right.
Like, no, I need you.
And he's like, I don't have timefor this.
And his, you know, taciturn youknow his short brief he's like

(17:37):
that was funny and it was funnyand I liked it that she Johanna
Lindsay was she just showinstead of the stupid internal
dialogue which I hate in thisfirst person that they're doing
now I mean because it's thirdperson POV she's able to show
much better his reason you knowwhy he's like that and it's And

(17:57):
she did that well, I think.
He was like, clearly, he's likea track.
She showed that he was a trackto her, that he was a little bit
nervous, that he was purposelybeing gruff to just get away
from this before he got morenervous.
Exactly.
And then, of course, they runinto each other.
So he does walk away, but theymeet again in Tombstone.

(18:19):
And this is where I appreciate alot of times in some of the
books of my most recent favoriteauthors from that time.
They have characters that theyinclude historical figures and
the heroes are always likespying and they never it's like
spying.
I'm going to talk about thatlike for a whole episode someday
because it's always so dumb andpointless.
But there was like just a briefbackground of they were there.

(18:43):
The characters were there whenthe shootout happened.
Right.
It's very background and brief.
is kind of what helped them.
She finally got him roped in toworking for her.
So then he now has to escort herto Wyoming, which I missed.
Maybe, did you get that part?
Now, I've read this a milliontimes, and maybe it's my ADD,

(19:06):
but I can never slow down enoughand figure out if she said how
Jocelyn figured out he was goingto Wyoming.
Because I know the youngerbrother said his sister was in
Wyoming, but I couldn't find aspot where...
he ever told her that Colt washeaded to Wyoming.

SPEAKER_02 (19:22):
I don't remember.
Yeah, I don't

SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
know.
But somehow she wasn't, but I'mpretty sure that she wasn't
planning on going there untilshe found out Colt was.

SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
But I thought that Wyoming was where she wanted to
establish her horse car.

SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
She was going or California or whatever it was.
I couldn't figure out if Wyomingwas always in the cards or if it
was a last minute decision tokeep Colt with her.

SPEAKER_02 (19:47):
Yeah, I'll have to look here because I'll see if I
can find it.
It's like in the beginning whenshe talks about that.

SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
But that's another really cute scene is there
because Colt is still resisting.
Right.
And his brother says, look, Itold her.
He wound up talking to Jocelynalone because Colt wouldn't go
near her.
And he's a young kid and shewalked all over him and ended up
getting him to invite to escorther.

(20:17):
know to where they were right sohe's like hey colt i told them
they could come with us and he'slike what what is happening
we're leaving right now and sohe's like you can't do that
they're gonna get he talked himinto he gave him a reason why
they shouldn't really do thatand colt had a conscience so
they go over to their she's atthe hotel packing expecting to
meet up and colt is thinkinghe's going over to tell her

(20:39):
forget it we're done take no foran answer They're both, so he
and Colt and his brother aresitting in front of the hotel
waiting for her to come out.
And it's, I like this partbecause she kind of just really
subtly describes perfectly hisnervousness.
He's not saying it, but he's,and his brother, and it says in

(21:02):
his brother's voice, he's like,I don't know what Colt's going
to say, but, you know, I know hewants to tell her, he's here to
tell her, forget it.
But, It's like, I don'tunderstand it.
He's, he's fiddling with hishat.
He keeps looking at the door.
He's 10.
She described just, but Colt'snot afraid of anything.
So he can't be nervous.
And it was just really, I lovethat.

(21:23):
And then she gets them too.
He gets, he gets like trickedinto it.
Right.
From then on.
And he's met.
So now I also don't typicallylike books where the hero and
heroine are not in proximity fora lot of the book.
I hate that, but she does havehim, not too much, but she does

(21:43):
have him away from her becausehe starts circling the camp and
scouting, you know, they'retraveling now.
And for some of the chapters,he's not always in her presence.

SPEAKER_02 (21:54):
Right.
He's trying to stay deliberatelytrying to stay away from her.

SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
But she goes, so this is where she starts
building tension because sheThey don't actually have sex
until page 214, chapter 23, butthe tension is building.
And so the first time she seeshim, he's a little bit away from
camp.
He's like rubbing down his horseor something.

(22:19):
And she approaches him to tryand talk to him and he puts her
off.
And they have a couple of theseinteractions where she's like,
there's nothing you can do tomake me fire you.
And he's like, really?
And the first time, how aboutthis?
And the first time he justkisses her brutally, like
rudely.

(22:39):
And I don't know how this wouldactually be in real life, but
she kisses her in a way that'slike, not like injurious, you
know, but you could tell whenshe goes back to camp, Vanessa
can tell that she's been kissed.
Right.
Because her lips are swollen.
And she's like, what about now?
Are you afraid of me?
And she's like, I'm not firingyou.

(23:00):
I need you.
And he's like, oh.
And so then it happens.
And the second time it happens,which I love, I think it's the
second time, they have the samekind of interlude where she's
like, you can't make me fireyou.
There's nothing you can do.
And he's like, oh, really?
And he throws her to the groundand fingers her.
He just sticks his hand up herskirt.

(23:22):
and she's like i wish she wouldhave described that scene a
little bit more because i thinkit was a little bit
underdeveloped because she justgets up and goes back home to
camp but so that's what elsehappened that was interesting
then i mean

SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
and you know what i have to take issue with that
like come on really like i meanmaybe we're okay with he you
know brutally kisses heralthough you know i would think
that i would kind of be likeyeah that it's one thing to kiss
without consent but that thathurt like you hurt me when you
kissed me that was that was notawesome and then yeah then he

(24:00):
like freaking sexually assaultsher and she's just like

SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
but then she's like please don't hurt me and then he
stops and he's like oh god youmean he felt like a dick and
he's like and he immediatelyimmediately backed off

SPEAKER_02 (24:12):
but true this is true i mean you know like i said
this one was not nearly as badas some of the other ones that
i'm just like no but yeah iremember being like oh

SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
just grabbed and fingered like immediately

SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
i don't know and i mean you know we could talk a
lot of things about the factthat he thinks that what's the
point is is he giving into hisdesire for her is he

SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
thinking so at this point they both want each other
they are both dying for eachother but he doesn't want to let
himself believe Now, it almostseems kind of to the point of
stupidity because everything,she's so obvious.
Anybody, he could not possiblynot know.
But he doesn't know because hedoesn't, because of his
experience, he doesn't trusthimself to believe that she

(25:04):
really wants him.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
Or that she will continue to want him.
You know what I mean?
I think that he thinks that shethinks he's a novelty.

SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
And she never really does.
I mean, she never expected tofall in love, but she was never
against it.
Right.
Right.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
But yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting that
that's what he chooses to makeher go away, you know, to make
her fire him.
Because I'm thinking, you know,there are a lot of things shy of
sexual assault that someonecould do to me to make me fire
them.
Why didn't he employ any ofthose

SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
things?
Maybe he figures she's a lady.
Because I think there's a partof him that doesn't want to.
He doesn't want to go away.
He wants her.
You know, and he's resistingthat part of him.
Right.
I mean...
That's why I think, I know it'sa romance novel, but like in
real life, that's in real life,it's completely implausible.
He would definitely know thatshe wanted him.
Right.
But because of the plot, he isnot aware of it yet, even

(26:00):
though, you know, he's notadmitting it to the point to his
conscious mind.
So he's always questioning andsecond guessing and trying to
push her away.
And then when they do, Oh, sowhen they do get together and
this part is wild too, becauseit's, her and Vanessa, they're
like, all right, I can't takeit.

(26:20):
Jocelyn's like, I can't takethis anymore.
We have to make this happen.
Help me out.
And Vanessa and her concoct thiswhole thing where they, they
dress her up in lingerie, do herhair.
You know, they're going to, theymake her all sexy.
And they're like, all right,we're going to make you look
desire, like, like irresistible.
And then you'll find a reason tohave him come to your room.

(26:41):
Right.
And when he sees you, he's notgoing to be able to resist you.
And, It didn't seem like it wasgonna work out at first because
nobody could find Cole.
They got all ready.
Tonight's gonna be the night.
They sent away the guard fromher room so he could just come
in.
Nobody would see him.
And hours go by, he doesn't showup and she feels like, all

(27:02):
right, tonight's not gonna bethe night.
She's disappointed.
But then this is another nicepart that I liked, but he didn't
show up.
Then nobody could find himbecause he was across the street
in the shadows, drinking vodka,watching her window, her open
window, imagining all the thingsthat could come true if he went
over there, but he didn't wantto go, but he could didn't, you

(27:24):
know, he's fighting with hisconscious.
And now he's like, he didn't goover there.
He's just standing there staringat her window.
And she doesn't know that.
And then before it actuallyhappens, she, Lindsay sets up
like a whole chapter, way toolong of a setup.
It was just so long.
I was skipping.
I was just skipping pagesbecause it was way too long of

(27:45):
the setup to this.
This is the only part where Ireally thought the pacing was
kind of off because almost awhole chapter was spent
describing burglars coming intoher room, making her try and get
a crawl out the window, whichshe could do because it's only a
second story episode.
place in, you know, 1800 oldWest, but she gets stuck there

(28:08):
and she's like, crap, what do Ido now?
And Colt comes and catches her.
And he's like, God damn it.
I spent all night avoiding this.
And now here I am with my handon her ass.
This is not going to hurt you.
And he gets in a room and theyhave a fight.
Of course.
And he slams out and I done.

(28:29):
And then they do the classicthing where I think it's a
classic thing where then hecomes in a second later.
And he opens the doors halfwayand he's like, and when are you
going to lock this door?
You know, and he doesn't get,like he loses his words because
he finally, he's all this timehe's been avoiding looking at
her.
Because if he looks at her, it'slike too much.
But so he finally now looksright at her and then he steps

(28:54):
into the room and closes andlocks the door behind him.
And the whole way she describesthat while he's staring at her
is awesome.
And then they have this littlemoment where he comes right up
to her and that's the blurbthat's in the front of the book.

SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Oh,

SPEAKER_01 (29:14):
okay.
Where he's like, scream now,Duchess, while you've got the
chance.
You won't get another.
Oh, yeah.
But he still gives her everychance.
He still moves slow.
So in this scene...

SPEAKER_02 (29:28):
Yeah, I didn't have...
I didn't have a problem withthis scene.
I mean, and this scene, this wasvery, very clearly two
consenting adults who weremaking it pretty clear what they
were there for, what theywanted, what was, you know,
nobody was there under a falsepretense.
I mean, I guess technically withher fancy lingerie, but still,

(29:48):
like I didn't have any problemwith that scene.
I was like, yeah, good, good foryou, girl.
I mean, I guess the only falsepretense is that she didn't tell
him she was a virgin.

SPEAKER_01 (29:57):
Oh, and that's an issue later afterwards.
He's like, then, then of courseyou think they're going to get,
everything's going to be finenow, but no, because now he's
mad that she used him.
Right.
And although it was not nice theway he got that information out
of her.
We'll get that.
And that scene actually, Ithought was pretty, it was
pretty good, even though theywere not as graphic back in the

(30:20):
day, except for maybe retreatsmall, but we'll get to her
another day, but they were a lotmore, they didn't, they were not
nearly as graphic in general asnow, but yet it was still a hot
scene.
It

SPEAKER_02 (30:32):
was a hot scene.
I thought.

SPEAKER_01 (30:35):
And I love the way a lot of times in the old books,
they just get right to it.
Like there's not a lot offoreplay.
He is like in her, like rightaway.
But the only thing about thatscene that I didn't really like
was the one comment.
I wish I could have thought of abetter phrase.
Like, cause he's once he tellsher, he's going to put her.

(30:56):
He's going to carry her to thebed himself.
And so she's waiting while hetakes off her stuff and he's
like undressing.
And he's like, wait a minute.
Right.
I don't know what to do.
She's never done this before.
So she's like goes to move tothe bed because she feels
awkward.
And he's like, no, I said I wasgoing to put you there myself.
And he says something like hewas going to lay her down and

(31:17):
fill her with his flesh.

UNKNOWN (31:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
And I really wish there was a better way he said
that.
But that's really my onlycomplaint about their actual sex
scene.
And then, I mean, it's like,what can we think of that would
have been better than that?
But then the next day he leavesbefore she wakes up because he
realizes during sex that she'snot a virgin.

(31:41):
And he doesn't say anythingthen.
Which, I

SPEAKER_02 (31:46):
mean, come on, man.

SPEAKER_01 (31:47):
Like...
Right.
And she even says to him, oh,piss off.
She's like, piss off.
What's wrong with you?
Are you mad that I wanted youand that we had this great sex?
What's your

SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
problem?
Or even just the whole, thiswhole trope that like, you know,
every virgin has a hymen thatsuddenly gets quote unquote
groped and like all these thingsthat are

SPEAKER_01 (32:06):
medically incorrect.
How can you always tell?
You can't always tell, can you?
Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 (32:11):
Right.
Like, yeah.
So that just, I mean, that tropeis there and does bug me that
suddenly he realizes, oh, oh no,she's a virgin, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
And he's not, but at least he wasn't the usual, oh,
I'm so proud.
I'm the only one.
Right.
But still he was kind of likereally childish about it.
That he's like, you used me.
It's like, get over yourselfthere.
But because he wants her formore than just sex and he's
still needs reassurance.
This is where maybe there couldhave been a little bit of

(32:43):
unnecessary miscommunicationthere.
I mean, really, an adult mighthave somebody might have just
said, look, you know, what doyou want?
This is what I want.
You know, at this point, itseems like a little bit
implausible that there's thatmuch miscommunication.

SPEAKER_02 (32:59):
True, because she has been pretty forthcoming with
him the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 (33:03):
But he he wants to hear her say it.
So he can't beat it out of her.
He can't torture or anything.
So he decides to seduce it outof her.
He starts kissing her andeverything.
feeling her up and getting herall.
And he's like, tell me, tell me,why'd you do it?
And so she finally told him.
And then he steps away and he'slike, oh, mad.

(33:24):
Then they get back on the roadand he goes back to avoiding
her, like in the old days.
But then they have anothercouple of incidents where they
meet up again away from thecamp.

SPEAKER_02 (33:34):
And before we get on, can we talk about the lovely
role reversal?
The dude.
is mad because she used him forsex like wow right this is this
is a like i don't want to callit like female empowerment

(33:55):
because i feel like that goestoo far but i do feel like this
is more feminist than yourtypical one because how many
times is it the guy uses her forsex that's all he wants whatever
and you know nobody reallyblinks and The fact that he was

(34:15):
upset about it.
I even had to stop for a second.
Cause I was like, why is he soupset?
He's a guy.
And then I was like, because menhave feelings too, Monica,
because people don't like to beused male or female.
So I like, I think that like toturn that on its head and really
make it again about like, thisis what I want.

(34:37):
I used you for.
And he's like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
But she didn't use it.
He just made that assumption.
By this point, in her mind,she's in love with him.
She just hasn't named it yet.
In her mind, she does not wantto leave him at all, but she
just hasn't faced it andarticulated it yet.
I mean, she...
I don't know.
Do you think when she went intothat sex that she went into it
with the intention that it wouldbe temporary?

(35:00):
I

SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
do.
I do.
I think that even if it wasbecause she didn't think he was
that into her, but...
He

SPEAKER_01 (35:10):
had given her no reason to think, but if he had
decided to actually pursue herand be honest, she would have
been like, yes.

SPEAKER_02 (35:17):
Yes, except for later on, then she starts
talking with the guy who turnsout to be a bad guy, but she's
keeping her options open, I feellike.
I

SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
feel like it's only because he didn't declare
himself, but we can't know.
I guess that's something we caneach

UNKNOWN (00:00):
...

SPEAKER_01 (35:33):
I mean, you can kind of

UNKNOWN (00:00):
...

SPEAKER_01 (35:34):
interpret for yourself, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
Well, I mean, either way, I don't care

SPEAKER_01 (35:38):
because this is patriarchy and whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
What happens in real life?
I mean, you know, you have acrush on somebody, but
eventually if it doesn't looklike they're going to say
something to you, you're like,well, I got to move on.
Like I don't have all day.
So I think that, yeah, I mean, I

SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
just love the whole, a lot of times it's so crude and
direct and now in the books now,and I just love the games and,
that they have to play to getwhat they want because they
can't, they are restricted insome way from saying, just
coming out with it.

SPEAKER_02 (36:10):
To me, it depends on what the reason is.
The fact that he couldn't comeout and say things because he'd
been almost beaten to death byracists, I think is a really
good.

SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
Yes, no, his chip was valid.
Right,

SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
like some of the other people, when they don't
say things, I'm like, ugh.
annoying.
You can see it coming a mileaway.
But the

SPEAKER_01 (36:34):
women, they couldn't do that.
And I don't think even todaythey can really get away with
that completely.
And so I like that it's just, Ithink that's accurate.
I don't know how much hasactually changed there.
I mean, because people may doit, but I don't know how they're
seen by guys if they do it.
But Because I've heard, like myfriend has all boys and she

(36:57):
talks about, and they're allvery attractive boys and get hit
on by girls all the time.
And she's like, oh my God,they're telling me these girls
are just horrible, not classy,throwing themselves.
And they don't value it, let'ssay, whatever they're doing.
So they get, they're gettingcloser and closer to Wyoming

(37:18):
now.
And they're halfway there now,at least.
And So after they have thisfight and he's avoiding her, I
don't know if this is smooth.
I don't know if it's justdropped in or not.
But these two con artists showup posing as brother and sister.
Right.
And they don't have anything todo.
Well, they meet up withJocelyn's enemy, but they are

(37:42):
their own con artist.
And the guy marries widows andkills them and takes their
money.
Right.
It's a scam.
So he thinks he's going to conJocelyn.
Right.
And she's like laughing at himthe whole time.
So they go out on this ride andhe gets her away from camp, away

(38:02):
from her help.
And he had already met up withher, Jocelyn's enemy.
And the deal was he was going toturn her over to him.
But he wanted to try first tomarry her and get all the money
for himself.
And she was on to himimmediately and was like, dude,
no.
I have your number, forget it.
And he was all humiliated andenraged.

(38:25):
And so he takes her to thevillain, which I hate his name.
I don't even want to say it, butit's a lot.
She named him long nose becausethey didn't know who the guy was
all this time.
I forgot that.
So she'd been calling him longnose, which I hate that name,
but it's because he's, shehasn't known his face or who he
is.

SPEAKER_02 (38:43):
And it's like the one armed man from the fugitive.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (38:47):
So meanwhile, she gets there and she faces Long
Nose and his little gang ofidiots.
And she's afraid now because shethinks she's going to die.
And she's trying to figure outhow she can cause some damage
before she does if she can't getaway.
And oh, and she's with.
OK, so up until this point, wedon't know that Colt had

(39:08):
enlisted his friend Angel tojoin the gang that she somehow
found out about, infiltrate themand, you know, Because

SPEAKER_02 (39:15):
somebody was talking, I want to say when they
were in Tombstone, someone wastalking in one of the saloons.
I think that was it.

SPEAKER_01 (39:22):
And so it turns out he's got this friend named Angel
who also gets his own book,which we have to talk about
again because it was okay, butit could have been better.
But Angel is a nice character.
He feels like he owes Cold afavor.
So he agrees to join their gangto keep tabs on him.
And he's the one that escortsher to Longnose.
But he doesn't tell her who heis.

(39:44):
And so she's mad at him for therest of her life because he let
her be afraid.
Right.
So he gets there and I don'tknow if this is actually
plausible, but now Angel is likeone of the best, world's best
gunman.
And he's up against, it comesdown to he has to get Jocelyn
away.
He's not going to let him takeher and kill her.

(40:04):
And so he has to get her out ofthere and he is facing off
against like six or eight otherguys with guns.
And I don't know if this isactually plausible in real life,
but he, they all put their gunsdown and like, we're not even
going to try with you becausethey knew he was so good with a
gun.
So he rides away with her.
And in the middle of ridingaway, they have some cute, some

(40:28):
funny dialogue there.
Yes.
Cause she's like trying to startshit with him.
And he's like, lady, I would benice to me if I were you.
Right.
And he's like, why don't we getmarried so I can beat you?
And he's like, And she's like,ah.
And this leads to one of myother favorite parts because
Colt shows up out of nowhere.
She doesn't seem at first.

(40:49):
This rider's coming towardsthem.
And she's like, somebody'scoming.
And she doesn't know who it isyet.
She doesn't know why Angel'sstopping and getting down.
And he's just waiting.
And so she takes off runningbecause she thinks it's somebody
else coming to get her.
Colt swipes her up mid-yellow,puts her on a horse.

UNKNOWN (41:09):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (41:09):
And she's so relieved it's him.
And she starts crying.
And he's like, his arms arearound her.
And he's like, what's wrong?
Are you okay?
No, he said, are you okay?
And I mean, that moment was likeone of my things.
And I love that.
But then she is like, you needto go kill that motherfucker.

(41:30):
And she's like, I'm going to gokill him.
Put me down.
And he's like, you're not, but Imight.
And then they go meet up andthey have this debriefing.
And they have this other greatmoment where Colt's jealous
because they start explainingthe whole situation.
And he's like, what the hell didyou do that for?
She couldn't.
Why did you put her in thatsituation?
And Angel's like, well, she hasa right to know her enemy.

(41:51):
I just wanted her to.
I had it covered.
All right.
She had a right to know.
Now she knows what it lookslike.
And then the conversation turnsto why was she even out there?
And she was out there withMiles.
Miles is a con man.
And Colt's like, she's like, whydidn't you tell me before?
You knew about it.
And he's like, well, I didn'twant to ruin your little
romance.

(42:14):
So now he's mad at her and he'sjealous.
And she says, you know, I shouldkill you myself.
And I love this too when they dothis.
He just tosses her his gun andhe's like, okay.
Knock yourself out.
And she's like, oh, you bastard.
You know, of course.
So she rides away.
I love those.
I love little moments like that.
And I don't know.

(42:36):
But then what?
What?
I don't know.
There's anything I want to sayabout that point.
So then we get to the end.
There's a couple of things thathappen in the third quarter that
are must be mentioned.
Yeah, because, you know, I havea problem with one.
So a couple of other littlethings happen where.
He gets hurt and she tends tohim.
And, you know, there's someother discussions that are great

(42:58):
with her and Vanessa and her andColt.
And then we get towards thefinal third where after this
last thing that happens whereColt was in a shootout, they him
and Jocelyn, he says, all right,I give up.
Let's you and I go the rest ofthe way the next couple of weeks

(43:18):
on our own and the rest canfollow.
And she's like, he's like, youget my drift.
Right.
And she's like, yes, I do.
She's like, I'll go think aboutit.
And then like an hour later,she's ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Well, cause he pretty much says, I can't
remember who says it exactly.
Or he definitely implies thatlike, we're going to be together
and we're going to be togetherin every sense of the word on
this trip.

SPEAKER_01 (43:39):
Or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 (43:41):
Yeah.
And she's like, okay.
You know what?
And she gets it.
Like, you know, again, this isa, This is a nice missed
opportunity.
I'm glad she didn't take thisopportunity to have some
stupid-ass misunderstandingwhere she's like, what?
I didn't know we were going todo that.
I thought you meant that wewould just be pen pals.
She knows exactly what he'stalking about, and I do like

(44:01):
that.

SPEAKER_01 (44:02):
No, my virtue, whatever.
But she did briefly.
It was kind of funny where she'slike, I'll go think about it,
and I'll let you know.
And then a sentence later, she'spacked and waiting for him.
Right.
And they...
While they head out, I haven'tread another scene like this.
I have not read every romancebook in the world.

(44:23):
But in all my reading, I havenot read a scene where people
had sex on a galloping horse.
But Colt and Jocelyn did.
And because so she wakes up toan orgasm because he got her
unbuttoned and he's got his handin her and she wakes up and
she's like climaxing.

(44:43):
And then they proceed to havesex.
He flips her around and theyhave actual sex on the galloping
horse.
And I, you know, I didn't likethis for different reasons, for
your reasons, but my reason wasI just couldn't stop thinking
about like paralysis.
There's going to be an accident.
Somebody's going to lose theirwalking ability.
Just pull over.
You're in the desert.

(45:03):
There's nobody here.
Just pull over and put down yourblanket.
I

SPEAKER_02 (45:10):
had the problem with, of course, why?
are you touching her when she isasleep you have established you
have already had sex you haveestablished that you've made it
clear to her that you intend tocontinue with sex and she
appears to be fine with that

SPEAKER_00 (45:26):
wake

SPEAKER_02 (45:27):
her up that's gross

SPEAKER_01 (45:29):
but he did wake her up just with his fingers

SPEAKER_02 (45:31):
no no that is not so that that one really rubbed me
the wrong way i was like what

SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
I feel like it was implied.
I feel like consent was impliedby this point.
But

SPEAKER_02 (45:43):
even still, let me tell you, in my previous life, I
100% prosecuted a case where thehusband, like where the wife
woke up to the husband puttinghis penis in her mouth.
She most definitely did notconsent to that.

SPEAKER_01 (45:57):
What was their relationship?
Would she have wanted him to dothat?
Or was he like, did they hateeach other?

SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
They were kind of in between if I remember right.
But still, no.
This one, I'm going to say both.
To me, it was not sexy at all.
It was wake her up by nuzzlingher neck, shake her gently and
say, do you want to fuck?
But not the way that he did.

SPEAKER_01 (46:19):
That would have been great.
I acknowledge and appreciatewhat you're saying.
But I was like, I wouldn't haveminded it.
I don't think she minded it.
I think she was on board withit.
I mean, because I mean, he hasdone nothing to this point to to
be rapey.
So, I mean, I mean,

SPEAKER_02 (46:34):
except for when he.
forces her on the ground andforces his fingers in.
This is her heart without herconsent.
I mean, great track record.

SPEAKER_01 (46:46):
Well, I mean, she kind of, well, whatever I would
have been, I forgave him.
So she did too, but I justdidn't like, I don't know that
whole sex on the horse thingwas, it was infamous.
I mean, a lot of people havetalked about it and I haven't
come across too many, uh, Iguess it's technically like
possible, but I don't know whyanyone would want to do that.

(47:07):
All I can think about are fleas.
I just kept thinking ofChristopher Reeve.
I'm like, no, stop, just pullover.
But then they did.
And so then all of this timethroughout the whole book, she
has not seen his back.
So this is the other littleimplausible thing, because
whenever they had had sex, sothey've been on the road, this

(47:27):
whole trip of them togetheralone was like two or three
weeks.
And they've been boning thewhole time.
And every time she tries toapparently put her arms around
him, he moves her arms away andholds them somewhere.
And I just can't figure out howit's possible that she's never
going to feel his back in thiswhole time that they've been

(47:49):
having sex.
But she doesn't.
And so she still doesn't knowwhat happened to him.
And...
Towards the end, they'restarting to get sad because
they're like, oh, we're going toreach civilization soon and this
is going to come to an end.
I don't know why they're stillthinking that, why they can't
just say at this point, let'sget married, let's hook up,

(48:09):
whatever.
But, you know, they still feellike they can't be her just
because he hasn't taken the leadand declared himself and him
because he's And that's whatwomen expect, you know, at that
time, at least.
And him, because he stilldoesn't, for some dumb reason,
believe she really wants him,which I can't.
But they get to this town andshe's like, hey.

(48:33):
Before we join civilization, Ireally want to do something that
I can't normally do.
I want to go take me to abrothel.
Take me to a whorehouse.
Well, that's right.
And he's like, no.
And I mean, no.
And she's like, come on.
And he's like, so she gets themto compromise with a saloon.
And he makes her disguiseherself as a man.
And, of course, she blows it.

(48:55):
Anyway, the bullwhacker's there.
In this saloon is the guy thatalmost whipped him to death.
And the whole cult's been...
wanting to meet up with him toget revenge all this time, but
he never found, now he, now hehappens to run into him and
Jocelyn's so dumb.
She forgets that she's supposedto be a boy.
I don't know.

(49:15):
She gets this guy's, hethreatens her because she
irritates him and Colt freezes.
He can't, he just like gets PTSDand he can't for a minute.
He's just frozen and he can'tintervene like he normally
would.
And Jocelyn is, Doesn't knowwhat happened.
So she is mad.
She's like, forget it.

(49:35):
I'm never going to forgive you.
Cause like you let him almostkill me.
You didn't do anything just towhat scare me.
She's like, what's what thefuck.
And she walks out.
And I guess I think after shedoes that, he finally, he, well,
he snaps out of it and he shootshim.
He finally, you know, get somemoney.
So he goes back to the, that wasit?
The train car.
Now they're, they catch it.
Now they're close enough wherethey're going to catch a train.

(49:57):
She gets a fancy train car and,because she's Jocelyn and it has
a fancy compartment and bathroomand everything.
And he assumes he's just goingto go, it's over.
And he's just going to go get aticket and sit in another car
and they're done because hefeels bad, but he's like, he's
not about to tell her whathappened.

(50:20):
Anyway, he takes off his shirtto look at his back to see,
because during this, he hadwhipped him again.
He wanted to see if he didanything.
He can't feel anything now.
So Jocelyn comes out and shefinally sees his back and they
have this heart to heart andshe's like all upset.
And she's like, they have thisnice scene.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:38):
I'm trying to remember.
He's like, don't pity me.
And she's like, no, I'm notpitying you.
I

SPEAKER_01 (50:43):
just feel bad that you were, someone did this to
you.
Right.
I don't know what's thedifference.
How is that not pity, but okay.
I don't know what the differenceis either, but she's just all
upset that this happened to him.
And they, I don't know, he'stouched.
They both appreciate each otherthere.
They have this moment.
But then they show up.

(51:03):
They arrive in Wyoming at hissister's ranch.
And he jumps through there andleaves.
Right.
And she is offended andconfused.
And his sister is like, no,we're at the very end.
And his sister is like, sherealizes that they're in love.
And so she goes up.

(51:24):
She goes up to his place and shein a night, this is a nice
little scene where she's like,what is wrong with you?
Just go ask her to marry him.
And the way they did the way shekind of pushed him into it was
cute.
So he shows up and he's like,all right, I guess I can't lose
anything by asking.
And he, when he goes over thereis when long nose decides to

(51:45):
show up and finish the job.
Right.
And that whole part was kind of,and that was kind of a fizzled
out part, but she, she, He showsup just in time to get rid of
them.
And the nice part is she goesover to the window and she's

(52:05):
just looking out the window andhe, oh, no.
So before that, Vanessa is nowengaged to one of the guards,
her little side story.
And she's there with him.
And for the first time ever, Heuses her first name.
He's like, all right, I got thisVanessa.
And he shuts the door in herface.

(52:26):
And she's like, well, and he'sin her guy is like, well, what
do you care?
You don't have to live withthem.
And she's like, how right youare.
And so Jocelyn's staring at thewindow.
She's not looking at him and hecomes up behind her and he just
says, will you marry me?
And she is so relieved.
She just drops her head on thewindow.
And she's just, I mean, thatwhole moment was like so nice.

(52:49):
And then he's like, she's like,don't think I'm living in your
little cottage, right?
We're going to live.
And he's like, you're notcooking either.
Okay.
I would like to live.
And I just, I love that momentso much.
But then Angel gets it.
We'll have to read Angel at somepoint because I thought that

(53:11):
was, it wasn't bad, but it wasnot nearly as great as Savage.

SPEAKER_02 (53:15):
Well, supposedly there's a book about when jesse
and her husband get together oh

SPEAKER_01 (53:20):
yeah that was the first book before savage thunder
that book wasn't bad either buti just really like colt a lot
better as a hero then chasewasn't bad i mean it wasn't bad
but i just chased colt was likeworlds better okay in my mind in
my imagination colt's like muchsexier but it was it was still a
good book and in that one jessewas like this tomboy chip on her

(53:42):
shoulder because her father wasa dick and really not nice to
her, but he died and she wasrunning the ranch.
And then her mom showed, heraised her to hate her mom
unjustifiably.
And her guy was a friend of hermother's and she sent him there
to like watch her cause shewasn't of age and she's running
this ranch.

(54:03):
And they, he like, they do itright away.
And he tries to like say, hey,don't get attached.
You know, he acts like a dudewould like normally.
And she's like, fuck you.
You know, it's like, how dareyou?
And she's like, but she'spregnant.
She gets pregnant right away.
And she does this whole shotgunwedding thing, which is much

(54:24):
more like nowadays.
I hate like the trend now isforced marriage.
Like the guy wants to make hermarry him and then they fall in
love, which is so just, it'slike, give me a break.
It's much more what reallyhappens is, It was much more
logical.
It was much more plausible backin the day where he, yeah, he
took you or he kidnapped you orwhatever, but he wanted you to

(54:45):
be his mistress.
He didn't want to commit.
And he was forced to marry youat gunpoint.
You know, that's the way thingswent more normally, but it was a
joke because they both know hewasn't.
So they ended up, I mean, theyhad a little bit more of a
classic contentious situation,but she is.
Her father was like an assholeand he fathered like a whole
bunch of different people.

(55:05):
And so Indian woman, which wasColt and someone else.
So he had, so Colt and Jesse,the girl and this younger
brother that's in SavageThunder, they're all sit half
siblings from this one asshole.
And the younger brother is theonly one that, I mean, he grew
up cultured in New York and likewith money.

(55:28):
And Jesse grew up on the ranch.
I mean, she had a ranch, but shegrew up, you know, in the old
west and Colt grew up as anIndian.
So yeah, but that story, itwasn't a bad story.
I just, Colt was, he was thereto help out her mother and he
did that.
He was mad because she led himon some wild goose chases, which

(55:50):
was kind of funny because he wasfrom, he's not a ranch hand.
He's not from the west.
And he was, you know duped byher a couple of times
hilariously which served himright because he was like after
he slept with her the first timehe was ready to like not get
attached but Angel's story Ireally would have liked it to be

(56:11):
better because I'm interested tosee what you think of that
because he's a really nicecharacter too but I thought it
was more sappy and kind ofcheesy than compared to Savage
Thunder well then this was agood one for me to start with
then Yeah.
So the, it's interesting to seewhat, it will be interesting to
see what you think about thefirst, the book and, you know,

(56:31):
the book of his sisterbeforehand and the book of Angel
behind it.
Cause, but it was weird.
There was kind of like a LukeSkywalker thing to this, where
in the first book with Chase andJesse, his sister, Colt was in
that book, but he was with hisIndian tribe and he was, and he
was white thunder and, and, Hewasn't in it a lot, but he was,

(56:54):
it was kind of written like hemight've been interested in her.
Like there was a moment whereshe was bathing and he was kind
of like not looking at her, butinterested.
And then in the second book,they're siblings.
So I don't know what happenedthere with her plotting, but
nothing ever happened.
They never like, they werealways just friends, but there

(57:17):
was that weird scene where hewasn't watching her bathe.
But he noticed her.
But other than that, they werejust friends.
But I just like all of the therewas just so many nice scenes in
Savage Thunder where classicscenes where he rescues her.
He's fighting his attraction toher.
You can see his emotions.

(57:41):
But I think the third personreally helped here because I
just I do not like so much firstperson.
And I don't like these.
alternate viewpoints because youhave to have these ridiculous
internal dialogues in order tomake the story work or I think
it would be better just to havethe universe the third person

(58:01):
omniscient or you know where youcan get in different people's
heads I mean I can't imagineColt having a dialogue with
himself he did but in thirdperson so he didn't sound like a
I'm trying to remember that partreally I just think the third
person was so much better.
I mean, I think if this were infirst person and they alternate
viewpoints like they're doingnow, it would have really ruined
it.

SPEAKER_02 (58:21):
And

SPEAKER_01 (58:21):
whether it would be good

SPEAKER_02 (58:22):
for this book or not, I don't know.
I love first person alternatingviewpoints.
I enjoy that here.
I think it

SPEAKER_01 (58:31):
was, but do you think the guy, I mean, what guy
is going to, some of thedialogues that he has on himself
or just no guy is going to everdo that.
It's just, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 (58:40):
I agree.
And I roll my eyes all the timewhen the guy's like, I think
she's so cute.
I'm like, my husband has onlyused cute in his life to
describe babies and bunnyrabbits.
Never a girl.
That's just not a thing.

SPEAKER_01 (58:56):
But just in the way they talk to themselves about
wanting her and getting withher, they're like, they're all,
I'm going to, I mean, I don'tknow.
I just,

SPEAKER_02 (59:03):
I mean, I don't know because I'm not a dude,

SPEAKER_01 (59:05):
so I

SPEAKER_02 (59:05):
don't really know what goes on.
You know, I'm much more critical

SPEAKER_01 (59:09):
of Well, that's the other thing.
A lot of these are written bywomen in the dialogue.
They write these guys talking tothemselves like they're women.
A lot of them don't sound likethey're men.

SPEAKER_02 (59:18):
Nope.
And again, I'm not trying togender stereotype.
There may be men that certain...
I have no idea how a man thinksbecause I'm not in a man's head.
I can talk about the men in mylife that I've experienced how
they talk, that a lot of thethings that I read don't seem to
jibe with my experience of menthat I've known in real life,

(59:39):
though I suppose it's possiblethat there are men who really do
talk like that, you know.
But when it comes to, it's muchharder when it comes to like
those internal monologues orthose trying to put their
thought process.
I'm like, I don't know.
Doesn't sound like any guy Iknow, but I'm not in their head
either.
So who

SPEAKER_01 (59:56):
knows?
I understand the rationale thatfirst person is supposed to make
you closer to the fantasy andhelp you get into it more.
But I think third person can dothat just as well or better if
it's done right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:09):
I don't think you have to do it in first person.
I'm just saying, I like it whenthey do.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:12):
When I first, so I went through this period, like I
told you how that, I'm still somad about the day I decided it
wasn't cool to have romancenovels.
And I dumped my collection,which I just, oh, it makes me
cry to think about to usebookstore.
But in between, so once I gotover this and I came out of this
period where I wasn't you know,reading them.
I came back to reading them andthings had changed.

(01:00:33):
And this, I didn't know what wasgoing on.
I wasn't prepared for thisalternate viewpoint.
I'm like, what the hell is this?
I was, I was confused at firstand annoyed.
And now I'm familiar with it.
But I was like, at first I just,I was just like, what is
happening?
Because the last time I wasreading romance, that wasn't
happening.
Right.
Right, right, right.

(01:00:54):
Oh my God.
That was an unpleasantawakening.
But, I like this book a lot forall of those reasons.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:04):
Yeah.
Like I said, I enjoyed it.
It grabbed my attention.
It was a literal beach read forme.
And I finished it very quickly.
And I don't think there was muchI was skimming through.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:17):
like I said, there's not the action.
Things just moved.
And it's not like a lot of otherbooks from this period that I
liked.
And my favorite author is, itdoesn't get heavy into...
history and other details itjust is pretty light for a
romance novel I mean it's it andthat's the amazing thing I think
it's it's light and kind offluffy but yet it evokes all of

(01:01:42):
these classic things all of theclassic things that I love about
romance novels and seems toportray real people well and
I'll tell you another

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:50):
thing that I like that's a little bit different is
I mean yes they talk aboutbecause I'm looking here at the
very end They talk about thatthey would like to have
children, but so many, I feellike, of the books of this genre
end with either she'saccidentally pregnant, but yay,
we're in love, we're going toget married anyway.

(01:02:11):
Or there's the epilogue taggedon to where they're married and
she's, you know, her bellyswells with my child as I can't
stand that language.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:22):
Well, the green ink is a whole huge thing.
Yeah.
So

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:26):
I liked that they really resisted.
Like I said, so many of thethings that annoy me about, you
know, kind of, and I'm notagainst formulaic.
I mean, it's not romance, butI'm a huge fan of the cozy
novel.
they're extremely formulaic ilove it there is a comfort it's
the same reason i like to watchhallmark movies you know what's

(01:02:49):
going to happen and that's fineso i'm not saying but i just
what i really think kind ofstood out to me about this book
was lindsay had the opportunityto go with what was very much in
vogue during the time that shewas writing these books and she
chose not to and i like that ithink that was interesting i
think it set it apart and madeit that's partially with the

(01:03:12):
exception of, like I said, thereare still questionable consent,
but I think this one is moretimeless.
You know what I mean?
I think this can survive kind ofnot just being of a, of its time
eighties novel because sheresisted so many of those.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:29):
So one other question I had was, so in the
ways that we thought Jocelyn andtheir, in her interactions with
Colt, we thought that they were,kind of modern in their mindset.
Do you think it's modern now, ordo you think it's different more
with the way people would havebeen in the 80s or 90s?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:47):
Well, I mean, as you and I have discussed before, you
and I had a different upbringingin the 80s and 90s.
I had a pretty conservative one,so I can't speak to, and I
graduated high school in 92, soI can't really speak to whether
that was modern or for youngwomen in that time, you know,

(01:04:11):
if, if that was modern for 1989or not,

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:14):
it wasn't, it wasn't in the eighties and nineties was
like sexual utopia for,

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:19):
I mean, and again, to my experience, it wasn't that
because I still had, you know,very conservative Christian
upbringing that was don't.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:29):
Oh, well I had alcoholic neglectful parents.
So that was, that was part ofit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:33):
So I can't, I'm not a good person to ask about
whether or not I think it'sreflective of the time, but it's
certainly, I would say notreflective of 1897 or 67 or
whatever the heck this takesplace.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:45):
But yet it doesn't feel annoyingly anachronistic to
me, like some other things I've,I've come across.
Right.
Right.
So, but I don't know.
All right.
Well, Johanna Lindsay, SavageThunder, she wrote, I know she
wrote many books.
Not all of them were as awesomeas this, but, This is my
absolute favorite of hers.

(01:05:06):
We have to talk about some ofher other, maybe since we read
this one, we should have talkedabout the other two in
comparison.
But have you ever read anyBertrice Small?
I haven't even heard of her.
Oh my God.
She is, I didn't, I never likeda lot.
I liked, I didn't never like allof her stuff, but I liked, I
liked it as a kid just for theracy bits, but she was not

(01:05:29):
romantic.

UNKNOWN (01:05:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:31):
Yeah, when I was a kid and I was looking for racy
bits, I was reading D.C.
Andrews.
For our listeners who might wantto read this book, it is not
going to be on Libby or Hooplaor probably even in your
library.
Shout out to Thrift Books.
I was able to find, if you'renot, I'm sure if you, you know,
want to go look at garage salesand goodwill, but Thrift Books

(01:05:53):
had a wonderful assortment.
It's not on Kindle.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:56):
You can't get it

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:56):
on digital.
I don't think so because I wouldhave done that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:01):
But be careful if for some reason it's on audio
and I haven't checked, becareful before you buy older
books on audio because sometimesthey're bridged and they're not
the whole story.
So you kind of have to make surebefore you buy, if you're
getting the entire work.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:16):
I still

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:16):
haven't finished Shanna and I have the audio.
I liked that more than you did,but yeah, we both equally hated
Shanna.
She is grade eight.
C-U-N-T.
And she was that way.
She was a horrible personthroughout more than at least
three quarters of the book.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:34):
Meanwhile, I did not make it to three quarters.
The hero was like a model.
There was like nothing wrong.
His only flaw was that he didn'thave any flaws.
He was like really a model hero,but that's interesting too.
Cause you can see how thecharacters reflected the
author's views because it wastraditional conservative.

(01:06:55):
Yeah.
And I'm still amazed about tofind out that it was a
Shakespeare style copy of a mucholder book by a guy written.
It was called Johnny, LordJohnny or something.
And I haven't been able to readthe whole book because it's
written with a lot of dialectthat it's hard to wade through.

(01:07:17):
But it was almost the samestory, only from the guy's
viewpoint.
I mean, there was...
enough change to make it aromance, but it was more of a
swashbuckling focus, but it wasthe same setup almost exactly.
Or he was on death row and shecame and made him this deal.
And everybody loved that book.

(01:07:38):
I mean, it gets rave reviews andI don't know how, because yeah,
the plot is great, but the just,I cannot get through the
dialect.
I just, just write.
I need them to just skip thatand write.
I can imagine that they had adifferent accent, but it's too
hard to wade through it, readingit.
The old English, you know, theBritish.

(01:07:58):
Yeah, I know exactly what you'retalking about.
The 200s accents, especially ofthe lower classes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:02):
It's the same reason I couldn't get into The Witch,
the movie.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:06):
I couldn't get past the accents.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:08):
When

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:09):
are we going to talk about Lace?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:11):
I mean, I got to go back and read it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:14):
Now we're jumping ahead.
Lace is a contemporary story forthe 80s.
Was it 80s or 90s?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:20):
Yeah, it was written in the 80s because I want to say
the miniseries.
It might have even been writtenin the late 70s because the
miniseries came out in the 80s.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:28):
And supposedly it's based on roughly on a truth.
I think the author was in thatworld.
Oh, I did not know that.
I was looking it up and she is awriter that went to like Ivy
Leagues and was really in that.
in the upper crust of societyand based the, it's fiction, but
heavily based on her ownexperiences.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:49):
Right.
The

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:50):
famous line is what from that miniseries?
Which one of you bitches is mymother?
That kicks off the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:58):
Sure does.
It was originally published in1982.
So yeah, it was contemporary,you know, for 1982 or maybe,
maybe taking place a few yearscouple of years before.
I can't remember if it, I thinkit does take place in 82, but
without giving too much away, agood amount of it takes place in

(01:09:20):
flashback, which would have beenin the sixties.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:22):
And Phoebe Cates was the...

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:24):
Phoebe Cates.
I can't remember the otherwomen.
I can see them all in my head,but I cannot think of the other
actresses.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:32):
I mean, that was when romance novels weren't
cool, but boy, did everybodylove the miniseries.
Exactly.
And it was a big, that's a thickbook.
And there was a couple othersequels, I think, too.
But that lace was just huge.
I know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:48):
I know.
Back in the day when I actuallycould stick with long books.
So.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:54):
But, okay.
So.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:56):
All right.
Well, hopefully we have somegood material here.
I realized I didn't have as muchto say, probably because I liked
the book.
So I was like, I don't have aproblem with it.
And that's because very recentlyI read a book.
It did have a trigger warning.
I should have listened to itbecause I did not like it at
all, at all.
It was very disturbing, but Ican't blame the author.

(01:10:18):
The author let me know what wasgoing to be in it and that
indeed was in it.
I just didn't know how I wasgoing to react to it.
So I would not have a problemwith assigning a trigger warning
because I don't see a triggerwarning as a, nobody should
read.
I see it as a, like a, like aroad sign.
Hey, heads up, there's anaccident several miles ahead.

(01:10:38):
you can stay on this course.
That's fine.
Stay on the road.
You can take a detour.
That's your choice.
I'm just letting you know.
So I wouldn't have a problemwith it on there because I'm in
this, there's a Facebook groupcalled the smut hood and they
talk all about books and thenpeople ask for things.
And I'm like, Oh, Nope, thatwould not be my thing.
But you know, then I just scrollpast because I don't have that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:03):
I don't know.
I feel like it just, it's out ofhand.
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:11:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:07):
trigger warning stuff as if everything has to be
a trigger warning, then it kindof lends a label to fiction and
art.
And I think, you know, that'sreally important that people
have their own interpretationswithout a paternalistic
censorship kind of intervention,because it casts a, when you
have trigger warnings, it castsa kind of a I

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:30):
don't know that it does.
I think there are readers outthere who are very much
attracted to that.
And when they see, oh, containsthis, this and this, they're
like, great.
I mean, I see people and I'mgoing to use their words, not
mine.
So I'm not trying to criticizethem.
But there will be people who arelike, I need you to recommend
the sickest book you can thinkof.
There is nothing too kinky.

(01:11:51):
I want something that is justabsolutely horrifying.
Please recommend that book tome.
They would love to triggerwarnings or like a wish list for
them.
So I don't know that itnecessarily has a chilling
effect.
I just simply think of it as,like I said, it's information.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:09):
There's no trigger warnings on other things that
there should be.
Why should there be?

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:14):
I mean, there's all kinds of them on television,
video games, movies are rated.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:19):
And I'm not sure if there isn't one, you know, if
the author should be attackedbecause of it.
I mean, it's kind of yourresponsibility, what you read
and to handle what you read, toexpect other people to kind of
babysit you through life.
I think there's a little bit ofthat in the degree to which
everything has to have a warningand a safeguard.

(01:12:41):
I think it lends to a kind ofself-censorship for creators.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:46):
Suppose the other thing is though, I mean, if
you're someone who doesn't usesomeone who is concerned about
getting upset, then the lack ofa trigger warning might make you
not read it.
You know, you might just belike, Hey, I don't want to get
into this book and be upset.
I've had some bad stuff happento me in my life.
And, uh, you know, I'm a sexual

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:08):
assault.
Okay.
There's a harsh scene.
If there's graphic violence or agraphic rape.
Okay.
But I mean, In this book, ifyou're going to have a trigger
warning for rape, I mean, that'skind of over the line, I think.
So I think there's degrees ofwhere it kind of gets out of
hand.
You know what I

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:25):
mean?
Yeah, I mean, like I said, theone that jumps out to me is I
would put a trigger warning outfor that first scene.
It includes graphic descriptionof whipping...
of racial violence.
I think that one I woulddefinitely, if I were writing a
trigger warning, I would put thefirst scene in there.

(01:13:46):
That someone says, I don't knowthat I want to read about
someone being almost whipped todeath because they're Native
American and dared look at awhite lady.
Or at least I want to skip past.