January 9, 2025 • 48 mins
A classic 90s historical romance. Topics include: marriages of convenience, emotionally stunted heroes, and “not like other girl” heroines.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
So this is the holiday edition, which means
it's a mess because we aregetting ready for Christmas like
everybody else.
And we're talking and well, I'mdrinking like in my where I come
from.
Well, it's 11 o'clock.
It's around 11.
It's in the morning, 11-ish inPhoenix.
And in my house in New York,when I was a kid, my dad would
(00:30):
be drinking something by now.
So in honor of my family, I'mhaving a Sandra Lee ratio of
Frangelico and coffee.
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Which is cold now.
Is it Sandra Lee?
Who is the cooking show ladythat was like the massive
alcoholic?
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
Oh, I don't know.
I mean, I know who Sandra Leeis, but I don't know.
I know
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
because I know there's a cookie.
There's like a baked goods.
And then I don't know if it's asimilar name.
But anyway, she makes hilariousvideos about this and
unintentionally hilarious.
But anyway, we are talking aboutSo The Wedding by Julie Garwood.
And I didn't read this back inthe day.
I just picked it up, you know,not too long ago at a Goodwill.
(01:15):
And I did like it overall.
And I was surprised.
I didn't expect to.
I was just going to give it achance because I was bored.
And it's a, I don't know, whenwas it published?
Julie Garwood, I was like more,I had a little select group of
Avon authors that I read and shewasn't one of them.
But this was written...
Was it 19?
Well, it was published in 96.
(01:36):
Wow.
It wasn't even that vintage.
Anyway, it's two books.
So there's the bride and thewedding and they're both pretty
much the same format.
But where it's, of course, it'sa marriage of convenience
between a Scottish guy and anEnglish girl for some reason.
Scottish Highlander.
And this one I actually likebetter.
I like the second one better.
(01:58):
I just think the characters aremore, the guys, they're more
engaging.
And I didn't expect to like itbecause I typically do not like
the obtuse hero, especially whenthey're like sexually obtuse.
And I mean, I hate that, butthis one is, It was kind of cute
(02:20):
because he wasn't really...
I don't know if you thought so.
Do you think he was reallyobtuse sexually?
Because he kind of seemed likehe knew what he was doing, but
he was just kind of being kindof douchey in the beginning.
But the author was making it...
But Garwood was kind of makingit a purposeful point.
She's kind of like making fun ofthe fact that he was going to be
this Neanderthal man.
(02:42):
But he always...
Every time they interacted, hekind of caved immediately.
So it was kind of like a joke.
that he was not gonna be thisNeanderthal man?
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
mean, I don't know.
I thought like emotionally hewas completely stunted.
I don't know if I thought thatsexually he was stunted.
He seemed to have plenty ofexperience with that and no
trouble knowing what to do, buthe had like zero emotional
range.
And in fact, I get that he hadlike, you know, his mom
abandoned them and his dad diedearly and all that stuff, but
really he had such littleemotional intelligence that I
(03:11):
was like, were you raised bywolves?
Are you a feral person?
So that wasn't my take.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
And also the Brianna, the heroine, she was
almost too much.
I couldn't decide if she was toomuch because she was like
ridiculously like Mother Teresafor a lot of it.
And it's like no one, no humanperson is going to be that kind
in that face of that treatment.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
The problem I had with her, and it's interesting
because I feel like you see thismore in modern day romances,
was...
You know, in modern dayromances, I feel like you see a
lot of like the quirky girl.
I'm not like other girls, I'mquirky.
And I felt like that's what theywere trying to make.
Brenna's not like other girls.
She's like flippity jibbitin.
(03:56):
She forgets things, but shestands up and she's strong and
not afraid.
And it just, it got annoyingafter a while.
Cause I did, I felt like theywere trying to be like, she's
not like other girls.
And, and
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
that's been said, I noticed it.
I look, always look at commentsonline and good reads about
these books.
And a lot of people have said,you know, she's like
ridiculously perfect to her andthe other, the woman in the
other book, the bread, they bothlike can do everything
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
right.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
Like to a ridiculous degree, like in the other one,
she actually like stands up onthe horseback galloping and can
like shoot a bow and arrowbullseye and also do all this
other stuff around the house.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
And while she's so in touch with her feelings about
her husband and things likethat, she is so dumb that she
does not recognize the obviousmanipulation of the stepmother.
Like, how can you be so smartand intuitive about, oh, well, I
know Connor's pushing me away,but this is why he's pushing me
(04:53):
away.
I know this.
But she is...
not a moment crosses her mindthat this old lady has it out
for her.
You know,
SPEAKER_00 (05:01):
it's too bad because I liked a lot.
It had the bones of a reallyinteresting story.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yes.
And it was funny.
I liked that.
It was funny.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yeah.
That was what saved it from his,from him being too annoying with
his obtuseness and hisNeanderthal attitude, because it
was pretty funny.
I wish I wouldn't have to pullout some of the, like some of
the things he said werehilarious.
Like in the beginning, whenhe's, when he, kidnaps her and
they're traveling to Scotlandand she's like, I need comfort.
(05:30):
And he goes, he'll say thingslike, okay, I will comfort you
now.
Right.
And I love that because it'salmost like I was to think of
like an autistic, you know, it'salmost autistic in the way he
answers her.
Most of the books from thisperiod, the historical novels,
there's a prologue that sets upthe hero's entire personality
(05:52):
problem and this one is revengelike his father and his land
castle is all like attacked andjust and just his father's
killed and on his death so thisthe prologue connor the hero is
10 and his father and so thewhole plot is based on connor's
like revenge quest and hismarriage to brenna is part of it
(06:13):
but so he's 10 now and hisfather's dying and And as he's
dying, he says things like hislegacy.
He said, do you burn with thefever for revenge?
And let's see, watch me die andlearn how to live as a warrior.
And I didn't realize thisbecause it blows the whole story
(06:35):
for me now because I skimmed,you know, the boring parts too.
And I should, I got to go backand read it because I didn't
realize until just now that hewarns Connor about the
villainous, his second wife.
What's her name?
Euphemia?
He warns her.
When he's dying, he said,Connor's like, should I, you
know, tell her about this, thetrade?
(06:58):
You know, they're worried abouta traitor.
And he's like, no, you can'ttrust her and you can't trust
women.
Right.
And it's like, and so knowingthat now really kills the whole
problem that occurs later.
Right.
But yeah, so we were talkingabout Brenna, how she's so Mary
Poppins and Mother Teresa,really.
And Until this mother-in-law,she's like a stepmother-in-law
(07:23):
for Connor.
And she shows up like halfwaythrough the, you know, in the
middle of things and like justinstalls herself in their house,
in their castle.
And she's a major cunt toBrenna.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
And
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Brenna just takes it and doesn't think anything,
doesn't understand.
She thinks that she owes, sheknows she's being a bitch, but
she thinks that it's her dutyfor Connor's sake to, you know,
Tolerate it, which is insanebecause she's really, really,
really crazy mean.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Right.
And she has so littleself-confidence in her ability
to be a good wife and thatConnor likes her that the woman
is able to easily manipulate herby basically being like, oh,
yeah, your husband's soembarrassed by you.
You know, gosh.
And Brenna has so littleself-confidence that she can
(08:13):
make him happy that she fallsfor it.
you know?
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
also who doesn't, I mean, it's the oldest, it's
oldest time.
It's like the wife complainingabout the mother.
She doesn't, she and her wholething, this whole problem is
because she doesn't say anythingto Connor.
Yes.
She has to keep from, it's like,what's that?
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
I feel like there's so much of that.
And that is a super annoyingtrope to me in anything.
I mean, and I, I feel likenowadays it's a little bit It's
not used as much, but it wasn'tjust in novels.
I mean, I watched a lot of soapoperas and I think about All the
times that you're like, oh, Isee exactly where this is going.
(08:55):
He's going to walk in and he'sgoing to misunderstand what's
going on instead of like anormal person being like, what's
going on?
He's just going to storm off.
And, you know, and I feel likethere was a lot of that in this.
Like, oh, my God.
The
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
only time that works is if you have a reason, like
you're purposely keepingsomething because you want
something else.
You know, I mean, you're.
you're withholding informationto achieve another goal.
Right.
That's a different thing, but,and that would be better because
then you've got so much morestory potential there.
It's like, you know, how couldyou do this to me kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
We could have shaved off like 200 pages if they had
been
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
better communicators.
Right.
And it really bothered me in, atthe end where the big problem at
the end.
Yeah.
Where this guy, the villain thatattacks.
So that's, By the end of the,it's like the last third of the
book.
And this guy attacks Brennawhile Connor is away.
And it's not described.
(09:53):
It's like, there's no scene.
It's just like, it's justalluded to.
And it's like so frustratingbecause that should be a whole
chapter.
I mean, it should be a scenewhere he's.
you know, stalking her to herroom and then attacks her and he
falls out the window.
I mean, that should be a scene.
Right.
He's barely even, he's justmentioned off page for most of
the time.
He has like two lines ofdialogue with her, the whole
(10:14):
book, but yet he's the majorcause of this.
And
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
yeah.
And that's what I think, youknow, they spent like, I
listened to the audio book andafter they went on and on and on
and on about Brenna learning toride the horse bareback and all
the description and how she justbefuddled his two servants,
which can we not name them?
They were like Crispin andClover.
(10:39):
Like they were really, I don'tknow.
It was Crispin and something.
Oh, it was like Crispin andGriffin or something.
But I was like, yeah, I feellike I'm reading.
Lord of the Rings.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
I mean, it was just enough to tease like they should
be good, interesting characters,but it's like either make them a
part of the plot because theywere interesting people, but
they were just not enough to,it's either don't name them or
give us more of them.
And also don't give them namesthat are super similar so I can
tell which one servant from thenext.
UNKNOWN (11:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Although what is it?
Quinlan?
I did.
I was disappointed that Quinlanwas the coolest character in the
story and he should have hadConnors like friend, his second.
Oh, right, right, right.
Should have had his own book.
And I, I'm guessing that theJulie Garwood thought he was too
well adjusted, like to have hisown story, but I think it would
have been a really great,because he was the one, every
time Connor acted like a doofus,he was like, he was there
(11:30):
telling him, I think Briannawants this from you or needs
this.
Maybe you should be doing thisright now.
Yeah.
Like being his adult brain.
Right.
And it was kind of sad, butfunny also.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, and you know, some of itis, it's hard for me.
Obviously I know that this ishistorical and obviously women,
you know, had a much differentrole.
You know, it's very, very, verypatriarchal and all that type of
stuff.
But it just got super, in thebeginning, I feel like there was
(12:04):
a lot of, woman, why are youtalking?
You're supposed to only thinkabout me.
You're not even allowed to thinkabout your family.
I know that it was of its time.
So I get it.
I get that it was historicallyaccurate.
I get that we're takingourselves out of it.
It was hard for me to turn offmy modern sensibilities and not
just be annoyed at the fact thatshe was just basically property
(12:25):
for such a long time.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
That's why I really like some of the, it's one
reason why I really like more ofthe 70s, 80s books more because
they don't tiptoe around thisshit.
They just like put it out there.
The guy is just says and doesthings.
As he is.
And then they deal with thefallout.
They're not they don't make itlike a I don't know.
I think they just they end updoing a worse job of it by
(12:48):
trying to politicize it now andmake it be like, oh, you
shouldn't make her, you know,try and make her stand up for
herself.
But she really.
Right.
Right.
And I liked it better when theywere just like, this is who they
are.
This is the story.
And then they redeem themselvesby the end of the book.
But they weren't like half askedabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Never works.
Yeah.
But yeah, I mean, and plus, butit was kind of brutal.
I mean, they would, there'salways a kidnapping or a
capture.
True.
But in those books, they wouldjust be like, all right, I'm
taking you to my room now.
This is happening.
Right.
And then there was the fallout.
There wasn't like now, nowthey're just like, he doesn't do
(13:29):
it.
He's like, I want you to respectme.
But they still want him to be anasshole.
And it's like, that doesn'twork.
You have to have him be theasshole.
You can't just say he's thedark, Alpha, and then have him
be a Harlequin guy.
I
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
don't know, though, because, I mean, isn't that the
appeal of the dark?
Well, maybe not the appeal, butone of the appeals of the dark
guy is that the love of a goodwoman can turn his heart.
You know, everyone thinksabout...
Because, you know, if you'rethat good woman who turned the
(14:03):
asshole good, that must meanyou're freaking amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
Now it's always insta, you know, insta.
In the old days, it did not.
The attraction may have beeninstant, but it was there was a
lot of other stuff.
They did not instantly fall inlove.
Yes.
And that was better.
I mean, they got their event,you know, through the story.
they may have done things likesex and stuff in the meantime,
(14:26):
but it was troubled because theyweren't there yet emotionally.
Right.
So that was a story, but nowit's like instantly there's no
one else for them, but the otherperson, even though they're
trying to make this, you can'thave that tension happening.
Right.
With that.
When you start with that.
I mean, it's one thing if it'sa, that's the point.
It's a short little novella, butthat's not what these, some of
(14:48):
these are.
True.
I agree.
But in this one, I just, dad,when I went back and read the
prologue, some of the thingsthat dad is saying, this 10 year
old was killing me.
Watch me die and learn how to bea warrior.
Right.
Old boy.
Don't trust women.
They're bitches.
SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
Right.
Yeah.
I was like, good job, dad.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
And meanwhile, Brenna, who should have daddy
issues, doesn't.
She's just like her dad.
I mean, he leaves her in afield, you know, like twice.
Well, I
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
mean, you know, she's one of eight.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
Right.
Right.
He forgot to count.
He just like wakes up one dayand is like, oh, you're going to
marry a stranger in anothercountry today.
Bye.
Right.
She's like, oh, he means well.
He's my dad.
He's a good man.
Right.
Well, I'm really weird the wayhe was like described as a major
asshole.
But she talks about him likehe's this great dad.
(15:39):
I
SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
mean, I think isn't a lot of that like they don't
know any better.
You know,
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
and Connor's like, are you high?
Yeah.
That was one thing I did lovethat they had a lot of good digs
about the English from theScottish.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And some good jokes about that.
That's true.
And it was kind of funny the wayConnor was just, it was annoying
because he was too clueless, butit was also funny where he's
(16:04):
like attempting to give her whatshe wants to tell him what she,
she's like, I shouldn't have totell him this, but I'm going to
go ahead and tell him this so wecan have a good marriage.
And he's like, like trying tolike give her what she wants,
like, but not understanding atall why she wants it.
Exactly.
And it's just, I don't know, buthe did kind of, and it should,
(16:28):
again, it was too stunted at theend where he comes back and
he's, you know, horrified andupset that she's beat up and he
should have been there.
And that should have been moreextended and detailed too,
because it kind of was, theymade up too quick there.
Yeah.
Because he should have had tosuffer more for being so stupid.
SPEAKER_01 (16:47):
Yeah, I mean, but what were her choices?
You know, her sister kind ofwent over with her life.
You can't go home.
You're like married to this guyand you want to have kids, don't
you?
So, you know, I think that shekind of ended up in the whole
like, do you want to be happy ordo you want to be right?
You know, and I think she chosehappy.
I
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
did like this.
I know.
I just wanted when he came backand he was holding her and, you
know, he was so crushed that heleft her and that happened.
I just would have liked to seemore of his thoughts there.
Oh, yeah.
Like, you know, being so beatinghimself up a little bit more as
he should have.
But he did.
I mean, he did.
And that was kind of nice wherethey go and have that standoff
(17:27):
at the end.
Right.
It would have been good to havea book between Quinlan and her
sister because that looked likea good match.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
that's true.
Who knows?
Maybe Garwood wanted it and thepublisher said no.
SPEAKER_00 (17:40):
I mean, he was the best character in the whole
book.
He wasn't there nearly enough.
Yeah, but I should have not haveskimmed as much as I did.
But I like the wedding.
So he picks her.
So there's the prologue where itsets up Connor's his problem.
Right.
His whole thing is they have tofind this traitor, which should
be obvious to everybody, butisn't.
(18:00):
And then they introduce her andthey have.
Yeah, I skipped the whole part.
Her prologue was she meets him.
I don't understand this age.
I didn't get the math.
Because she was like five.
No,
SPEAKER_01 (18:11):
she said she was older.
He thought she was because hesays, yeah, I totally remember
me.
This is towards the end.
He says, I totally remembermeeting you.
You were like the same age as myniece, who's like five.
She's like, no, no, no.
I was actually way older thanthat.
I think she says she was like12.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Oh, OK.
No, OK.
No, no.
She was way younger because theywere talking about her like she
was a toddler.
They were.
But what 12 year old wouldn'tknow?
I mean, he picked her up.
she was hiding pigs under herskirt or something.
And he picked her
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
up.
I don't know.
Maybe it's a consistency thingthen, but he definitely says you
couldn't have been much olderthan grace.
And she's like five.
He wouldn't pick up a 12 yearold.
I mean, he wouldn't think so.
And she's like, no, I was mucholder.
So I don't know.
I mean, I
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
don't know how this happened in like the 11 hundreds
of 1200, whenever this was, butshe sent him by courier, like
three invitations to marry her.
Somehow as a child,
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
she asked him in person that one time.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
But then there was a couple of times after that,
because it said she sent him bymail a couple of other requests
to marry her.
I don't know how that happens,but she did.
And yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
basically, I mean, all that did was set it up.
So why he would pick her out ofall the people that it was like,
oh, well, you asked me in theboat like here.
You're my betrothed to my enemy.
So I'm going to go ahead andscrew this man over by taking
his betrothed.
And how I'm going to convinceyou to go along with it is
coincidentally, you proposemarriage to me as a child.
(19:44):
So that's what I'm going to useto get you to say yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
And he didn't really that was just like to get her to
be hopefully willing because hedidn't really need to do
anything to get her to say otherthan take her.
Right.
And then, so the wedding waskind of funny.
Like, she drew out this comicscene of her, of Brenna, like,
delaying the wedding for, like,an hour because she was so
nervous.
And all the guys just standingaround letting her do it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yeah, it was a little long.
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Yeah.
And so, but then, so they, hepicks her up in England, right?
And they have to travel byhorse, by land, to Scotland,
right?
Right.
So they get married right away.
And...
Oh, that's the other thing.
You know, she shows this sign ofcourage because she's the only
one of courage.
The men she's traveling with arecowards and she is the only one
(20:34):
with courage and stands up tothem.
But then she completely turnsinto a doormat, you know, in
Scotland.
But anyway, so he marries her onthe road and then he consummates
it on the road.
Like he just the first nightthinks he's going to just bed
down in the middle of camp.
Oh, right.
And she has to say, I think shewants you to like go down a
(20:59):
little
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
privacy.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Which is weird.
I don't know.
That seemed like I don't knowwho wouldn't want even a dumbass
like him should expect to bealone for that.
I would think it's not like.
I
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
don't know.
I mean, maybe he's been sleepingwith bar wenches and they don't
care where it is.
Like, who knows?
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
So they do that and they actually have sex and it's
fine.
I guess not that bad for her.
But she was only upset becausehe didn't comfort her afterwards
or didn't give her complimentsor something.
Yeah, it was that he didn'tcompliment her.
And he still didn't come around.
And that's one of the timeswhere I'm mad that she didn't...
(21:37):
She should have walked off anddrew them into some kind of
skirmish or something for beingsuch a jackass at that moment, I
think.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
That's what I mean by, like, he just was so...
I mean, I guess he was just usedto being the laird and the boss
and just did whatever he wantedwhenever he wanted.
But I think the thing was like,he could show consideration of
his men.
He was not like a, he wasn't asociopath.
You know what I mean?
He wasn't someone who could notput himself in the position of
(22:12):
others.
So the fact that he absolutelyjust was so dumb when it came to
her was, I don't know.
It just seemed exaggerated.
And I sound like I didn't likethis book.
And actually, I did like thisbook.
I probably give it like a B.
I think it was probably at least100 pages too long.
And I think that in some ways,they were caricatures in an
(22:34):
effort to not be like yourtypical Bodice Ripper
characters.
I think she went a little toofar.
But I do like the fact that shetried to create something
different.
Although, I feel like all thoseheroines, are feisty.
Like where's the book about likethe docile girl?
Like, you know, I don't know.
Maybe nobody wants to read that,but you know, they're all
(22:54):
feisty.
And in real life, there areplenty of complacent people.
Although I get married
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
too.
I did not like the whole thingabout leaving her horse and bags
behind.
That was so mean.
I mean, to not even say anythingto her about that.
And then that was, I
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
mean, it was like, you know, in modern day, we
would be like, well, that'sdomestic violence.
You are isolating her from herfamily, from her friends, from
her belongings.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
And then she just accepts that she's upset for
like a second.
And like that, I mean, sheshould have given him a cold
shoulder for like the rest ofthe trip.
Again, I think that, I mean,that was
SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
devastating for her.
That was like, would she haveeven, would it have even
occurred to her to do that?
Like, Well, good would it do.
She was married to him.
She had no agency.
She's in a foreign country.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
but to not even be like, I'm not talking to you.
Get away from me.
I mean, like, I hate you.
I mean, for like, I mean, formore than five minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:50):
I don't know.
I'm thinking she was brought upto be, I mean, think of how
crappy the mother-in-law was toher and she just sucked it up
with a smile.
I think she was probably raisedto always be pleasant, to always
swallow down.
I mean, in some ways shereminded me My grandmother was
born in 1920, and she was thedaughter of a Methodist
(24:14):
minister.
And she was really brought up tonever acknowledge or experience
negative emotions.
And it screwed her up later in
SPEAKER_00 (24:26):
life.
That's not humanly possible, Imean, to completely achieve
that.
I mean, it's just, there's noway.
It's just
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
impossible.
But I mean, I think it's she dida real good job.
She was very cheerful all thetime.
And I think she just shoved itdown.
SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
My grandmother was she was kind of like tonight,
like turn the other cheek.
But I think she was genuine.
But I don't know how she's likealmost like too impossibly nice.
Like my her in-laws familytreated her like crap.
And she was such an angelicperson.
And it's like I still don't.
And it seemed genuine.
It didn't seem like she wasrepressing anything.
(25:00):
And I just I.
I suppose it's possible for somepeople to be like that, but not
me.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
Yeah, I just I think especially, you know, she's part
of a big family.
She's been raised to be a wife.
You know, it's not like shedidn't have a mom there.
She was raised to be a wife.
She was yelled at when she wasrolling around with pigs.
And that's not ladylike thingsto do.
So I think
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
that I just don't understand how you don't feel
inside like.
Well, she maybe did.
How do you just not be like,just rage?
Just be like, just to not justeven be waspish sometimes to
somebody.
I mean.
SPEAKER_01 (25:31):
Well, but you're talking about two different
things.
You just said you don'tunderstand how she doesn't feel
that.
And then you said you don'tunderstand how she's not
waspish.
I think it's quite possible.
Brenna felt a lot of thosethings, but whether she didn't.
I felt like she could act onthose
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
feelings.
I mean, momentarily, not like,even if she was generally nice,
sometimes it must erupt, right?
It must get to be too much atsome point.
SPEAKER_01 (25:53):
I mean, it did, because that's why she would,
you know, tell him what she wasthinking.
You know, that's why she wouldbe like, I'm going to tell you
that you're wrong.
But then he got mad and sheimmediately backed down.
Because, again, this is adomestic violence story, you
know?
Like, he's isolated her.
He's made her completelydependent on him.
He's told her, this isdangerous.
(26:14):
This is dangerous land.
The only one who can protect youis me.
You have to wear my clothes tobe protected.
Well, that's when you stab
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
him in his sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (26:23):
But then she's left with nothing.
She's left in the highlands, youknow?
I mean, like I said, I agreewith you.
That's not the part of, like...
Strangely enough, most of thetime, you know, I'm the one who
gets irritated by like the mymodern sensibilities.
That one didn't bother mebecause I'm just like, yeah, I
mean, you know, what was shegoing to do?
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
But I mean, it was I did overall like it.
I mean, they were somehow shemade I think the characters
appealing enough where theirritating things weren't deal
breakers.
Yes, I
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
agree.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
And they did seem to genuinely like each other.
Yes.
They recognized the good partsabout each other despite the, I
mean, they wanted to have ahealthy relationship at the
bottom, you know, behindeverything.
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
Yeah, and he talked nice things about her.
I mean, he was like, yeah, mywife's super smart.
You know, she's like annoying,but she's real smart.
SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Yeah, it wasn't just she's so hot.
Right.
And so they admired theircharacters about each other.
Yeah.
But the plot holes were huge.
Like the villain, it was justnot shown at all.
So
SPEAKER_01 (27:30):
I'm glad to hear you say that only because that was
one of the times that I skippedahead because I was running out
of time.
And suddenly, like, I was like,oh, he must have come back.
Yeah, you didn't miss anythingbecause it wasn't written.
That's good.
That's good because I thought Ihad missed it and I was just
having to, like, figure it outfrom context clues.
But good to know that everybodymissed it because it didn't
(27:52):
occur.
And
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
it really takes away from that moment.
You know, that should have beenits own chapter where this guy
comes to her door and traps herin a room and they have this
struggle.
Right.
And, I mean, he...
Falls out the window because shestabs him accidentally trying to
save herself.
Right.
But she did.
She was kind of realisticallyhysterical about it.
(28:14):
You know, she was like, oh, myGod.
You know, she was kind of not inher right mind about it.
Like, oh, no, my no.
Connor's going to be upset withme because I killed his brother.
And, you know, it's like she wasirrational because she was in
shock.
SPEAKER_01 (28:27):
Although let's also go back to like where I'm like,
how could he be so smart and sodumb?
So.
She wants to tell Connor and shefeels like she should tell
Connor like out of respectbecause it's his half-brother or
step-brother or whatever.
And Connor, you know, is busyand whatever.
She has a couple opportunities.
I want to say the maid, her goodmaid, asks her a question and
(28:49):
then either his best friend orthe other soldier.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
The other guard directly asks her.
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
Like, why are you hurting you?
What's going on?
Yeah, we noticed that you have aknife at all times, that you're
super jumpy.
She says, no, I'm not going totell any of those people.
I'm going to tell the sexualabuser's mother.
Really?
And you were surprised.
I mean, yes, the mom went wayoverboard when she was like,
(29:15):
well, you should just give himwhat he wants.
But like, are you for real now?
She was going to be like, oh mygosh, that's terrible.
My son is a total sexual abuser.
Here, I will protect you.
I mean, I was just like, youhave...
zero sense of like strangerdanger or even like proximity
(29:36):
danger.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
That's a too stupid to live kind of thing.
Yeah.
But I mean, at the very leastyou could have had her attempt
to say something to somebody andbe intercepted or be
SPEAKER_01 (29:48):
prevented.
UNKNOWN (29:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
Something.
Or like, you know, she tries andthey don't believe her.
And so then that's why shedoesn't want to tell anybody
because she's like, nobody'sgoing to believe me anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (29:58):
That to me seems like I wonder, is that like
self-censorship in writing, youknow, for political reasons?
Like why?
You can't be that bad becauseshe's not that bad as a writer.
Otherwise, I still I can'tfathom why you would write it
that way unless you're trying toavoid something for public
opinion.
I mean, it just seems like anobvious mistake that you could
easily avoid in writing.
(30:19):
I mean, especially for you.
I mean, you're so absorbed inthis.
As a romance author, you'rereading them.
You know how these things...
You should know instinctivelysomething like that, I think.
Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
I don't know.
I mean, again, it could also belike a word count thing.
I mean, you know, why do youspend...
SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
I mean, it should just feel off as a writer, as
somebody who loves romance andis immersed in these plots.
I just can't...
It should come up like, thisisn't right.
You know, this doesn't feel...
Something's missing here.
I
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
don't know.
Maybe they had to have somethingdumb to drive the conflict.
You know what I mean?
Like, how else are you going toget rid of, finally make him on
her side and let her know thatwhen push comes to shove,
they'll choose Brenna overhis...
Vendetta, except he kind ofdidn't.
He just kind of lucked into it.
You know, he was like, oh, I'mgoing to go after the lady who
(31:12):
said that her son should goahead and rape my wife.
And bonus, she's in cahoots withmy mortal enemy.
So like two for one,
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
everybody's dead.
And then it's like at the end,it was just the ending was
really dissatisfying becauselike they finally find out who
the traitor is.
And they did.
They should have had a gruesomedeath scene there.
Yeah.
And nothing happened there.
It was, I mean, she died, butnot, it was just like, again,
pretty much off page.
Yeah, I agree.
(31:41):
So, but it was on the plus side,the characters like Connor,
Brenna, Quinlan, they were, theywere some great likable
characters and the interactionsor the, some funny dialogue.
Yeah.
Connor and Brenna, you know,mostly from Connor.
SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
Yes.
And I would say I liked thatbecause it wasn't, overly
flowery on the love.
I also liked, I felt like thelove scenes were described
pretty well.
Sometimes I joke with you that Ithink that romance writers have
a word bank and they're onlyallowed to use those words from
(32:22):
the word bank when they'redescribing love scenes.
And I feel like Julie Garwoodwent outside the word bank.
And that was good because thereweren't those ones that I'm
like, oh my gosh, this is socringy.
So I would say if I had to saypros, I did like the characters
for the most part, even though Ithink that they were in times
caricatures.
(32:43):
I thought there were a lot offunny parts and that was nice.
I thought that the love sceneswere written pretty well.
I like that.
He didn't rape her.
That was good.
You know, considering the genre,that was a plus for me.
You know, I do think it had kindof a good mystery slash villain.
There were parts in it where Ilagged.
(33:05):
And then I want to say once Igot going, once I got to like
the halfway mark, then I reallystarted to enjoy it.
But the traveling to Scotland,and I understand that's to kind
of help establish theirrelationship, but that just
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
went on.
And the forced proximity, youknow.
Yeah.
Once he's home, he's liketraveling all the time.
Right.
It just, it went on a lot, Ithought.
But yeah, I would almost wishyou could redo that, you know,
update it and just make it morewhat it just, If she redid it,
it would be awesome.
Like you said, the sex scenes, Ithink when they talk about what
makes a good sex scene, it'ssomebody wrote about this and
(33:43):
Greta, it's an erotica authorwrote about this, Greta
Christina.
And she said, and I like whather little writing about it.
She said, it's not just whatthey do or how they do it, but
it's what it means to them.
And if you convey that, likethat's the whole scene, a sex
scene.
And so I think she kind of, shewent a little beyond the
seventies, eighties era of, itwasn't closed door completely,
(34:06):
but it was a lot was alluded to.
Like they didn't really get asgraphic as they do now.
So she got a little more graphicthan they did in the old days,
but she also put in how theyfelt about it, what it meant,
you know, what, when it washappening.
So it made it more interesting.
It wasn't just like a, like amechanical description.
Right.
I agree.
And that's another reason why Ilike third person.
(34:28):
I get so sick of first personnowadays that they realize I
think it's lazy and And I thinkit's a lot of times results in
just bad writing because youcan't convey what you need to
from the first person sometimes.
And it's I just think it's wayoverused.
I wish they'd get work in morethird person POV.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
I guess.
I mean, you know, I tend to likethe dual POVs and I don't mind
if they're both first person.
You know, I don't mind that asmuch.
I guess you can have the dualPOV in a third person also.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
You found me, though, that villain.
She was so working.
You're frustrating.
Like she was like watching theMexican telenovelas and where
the mother gets to slapeverybody and nobody slaps her.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Or she was not Lady Macbeth.
But who's Hamlet's mom?
She reminded me of Hamlet's mom.
SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
I just wish they could have had a scene where she
fought back once, like even inprivate, where she like told her
off or something.
Right.
You know.
She never had a minute ofsatisfaction with that bitch.
You know, it's just sofrustrating.
I know.
So what else can we say about,so this holiday episode is
Monica's baking her cookies nowas we're talking.
(35:42):
Yes.
For her cookie business.
And I can't wait to, I wantyour, do you want to talk about
the, how did that come about thecookies that you just made?
I had
SPEAKER_01 (35:51):
a lady who's having, she's a repeat client and she,
has an annual Christmas partyand she likes some of the
cookies to be adult themed.
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
So, so you made, so what are you calling these
cookies?
Are we going to have a euphemismfor them or they just.
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
Usually when the people ask for them, they ask
for like, they'll just say, Iwant naughty cookies, you know,
something like that.
I mean, I did some, she was,hosting a bridal shower for
someone else.
And she was like, penises arefine.
I was like, all right, you know.
Hot cookies.
SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
Yeah.
Did you, is there a mold forthose or did you have to make
that yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (36:25):
Oh no, there's all kinds of cookie cutters for
that.
I have one, but there's so manydifferent ones.
And there's ones that are veryexplicit.
I kind of picked somethingthat's, you know, middle of the
road.
So this, you know, I mean, I
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
guess if someone- I thought they were pretty cool.
I saw, I like it.
Thanks.
So, and how did you get theflesh tone?
Oh, I
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
just, there's a website that there's actually
this really good website wherethis lady took the time to mix
up like 20 different skin tones.
And then she put the colorformula down for...
SPEAKER_00 (37:00):
Oh, and you can put the veins on them and
everything.
That's going to be next level.
UNKNOWN (37:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:05):
I mean, like I said, people do that.
People put all kinds of things.
But I
SPEAKER_00 (37:09):
think you should put the romance hero name.
We should name them for ourfavorite books.
That's so funny.
I will take an order of those.
There you go.
Is she having just like apersonal party?
Like, is this for a party?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
it was this past weekend.
I don't know.
She throws a lot of parties.
She used to have this really bigGalentine's party.
And last year, I believe, wasthe last year she had it.
And I went to that and she hadlike fire dancers and male
models dressed up as kind ofangels, almost like Victoria's
(37:44):
Secret angel type garb.
Where did she have this party?
At her
SPEAKER_00 (37:49):
house.
What?
She had fire dancers at herhouse?
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
In her backyard.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:53):
Was this in North Scottsdale?
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
No.
No.
No, I don't feel comfortablesaying where it is to protect
the identity of the client.
But yeah, so she's a great lady.
She likes to entertain.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
well, I'd like an invite.
Let her know.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
Yeah, and I love it because she usually says to me
like...
SPEAKER_00 (38:12):
That sounds like a fun party.
SPEAKER_01 (38:14):
Yeah, she usually says to me like, hey, I need
some cookies for this type ofparty.
It's a Christmas party.
Make a few of them naughty andgo wild.
She gives me pretty much...
Complete creative control.
So that's great.
That totally frees me up.
And usually in that case, peoplewill end up getting more
designs.
(38:34):
If you tell me that you've got,you know, that I've got complete
creative control, I've got somany things I want to do.
You'll probably get a lot morecookies or not more cookies, but
more different cookies and moreintricate cookies than if you're
like, okay, I want this, this,this, and this.
Then I pretty much stick tothat.
UNKNOWN (38:54):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
Well, as you're eating these cookies, I mean,
oh, so I wanted to pick a quote.
I always like to pick, some ofthese Goodread quotes are just
hilarious, but I didn't grab onefor this book, but I did want to
shout out to the person whorated Shadow's Claim by Cressley
Cole one star.
(39:16):
He goes, fuck you, Bettina.
You don't deserve Trahan.
Five stars for Trahan and zerostars for Bettina, stupid bitch.
Wow.
And that's basically true.
That is an accurate review ofthat book, but I don't know that
book.
I don't know if we'll ever getto read.
We should talk about it sometimebecause that is another book
(39:38):
where I think it had so muchpotential and there was a lot of
good things about it, but therewas a couple of things that I
just killed it for me.
And the heroin was, was the mainone.
Oh yeah.
And it's too bad because itcould have been so great.
But overall, the bride, thewedding was better than the
bride.
Only because I didn't like, Ijust thought the, in the bride,
(39:59):
the heroine was just ridiculous.
Too accomplished at everythingto an annoying degree.
And the hero was not thatlikable.
I mean, he wasn't that, I wantedhim to be more appealing than he
was.
But he wasn't as clueless likeConnor is.
SPEAKER_01 (40:18):
He was...
It's his cousin, Alex, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:24):
His brother, his adoptive brother, his brother by
loyalty.
SPEAKER_01 (40:27):
Yeah.
So, I mean, like I haven't readthat book, but I could, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
Yeah.
He's like that in his own bookand he never changes.
It's not that great.
I mean, it could have beengreat.
That's a book where if you'regoing to make a hero with that
personality, I want to see somedumb con, non-con.
I want to see some old school.
Yeah.
Hero is some old school alphatype.
Cause that's, you can't give himthat personality and have him
act with today's politics.
(40:53):
It doesn't work.
Right.
Right.
So he just was, I don't know.
There was some moments where hewas okay, but, but in, in the
hero, the heroine in that onewas too over the top.
Like she was good at everything.
She was like an Olympic athlete,supermodel, homemaker, Martha
Stewart.
Right.
Or the 11th, 12th century.
You know, it was justridiculous.
(41:15):
And she's a healer.
But in this one, so this one isbetter because even though he
was, you know, the kind of adoofus, he was also funny.
Yeah.
And he had a good heart.
And so he, you know, he actedlike he was going to be this.
He was trying to be this sexistdoofus jackass, but he kept
(41:36):
failing and inadvertently beingmore and more of a good guy.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (41:42):
Right.
Like an accidental good guy.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (41:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:45):
And the things, their dialogue was funny in a
lot of places, like kind ofthings he said was, she did a
good job with the dialogue forhim.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
Yeah.
And I think that that is, maybeit's easier when the guy isn't
as emotional and kind of a jerk.
I mean, one thing that Istruggle with, with modern
contemporary romances is whenthey write dialogue or
especially internal monologuesfor a man.
And I go, No, dude, I have evermet talks like that.
(42:18):
And I don't think they thinklike that.
And it really, you know, kind oftakes you out.
And maybe in this case, it waseasier because he didn't have a
whole lot of, you know, mushythoughts and stuff like that.
So she was
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
able to write.
Next time you come across thatin the book you read, ask Jason
what he would think in thatsituation.
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
It's funny.
So I had him recently read acontemporary romance that I
thought did.
SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
You read the whole thing or just a part of
SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
it?
He's read multiple because it'sa series.
Yes, he liked it enough.
He was willing to read theseries.
But I told him, I said, I think,I think this one seems to get
male dialogue and kind of POV.
right as well as I can know notbeing male, you know?
And I said, so I'm going to getyou this book.
(43:05):
And I got it for him.
And after about maybe a month, Isaid, hey, have you started that
book?
He was like, oh yeah, I'malready on book two and I have
book three on order.
SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
Wait, now is he into audio too?
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
No, he likes to read.
Okay, good.
So he read the books.
All right.
I have listened to almost all ofthem.
Because it makes a difference, Ithink,
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
you know, in your own head versus what you hear
somebody, a narratorcontributing.
I think it's a differentexperience.
SPEAKER_01 (43:33):
Yes, yes, I agree.
And I think I had listened tothose books, I think.
I don't think, maybe I read thefirst one, but then I listened
to the other ones just becausefrom a time standpoint, You
know, I can multitask.
I can listen to an audio bookand be mobile and do so many
(43:53):
other things.
But no, he read the books.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Wow.
And so what did he say about themale perspective?
SPEAKER_01 (43:59):
He thought it was good.
He thought it was written prettywell.
He thought that the dialogue waspretty good.
He thought that the characterswere really well drawn.
He said there were...
I think he's finally finishedthe series.
I haven't actually finished theseries.
I was like, save those on yourKindle and share them with me.
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (44:14):
that's a good marriage, guys, when you can
have a husband who will readyour romance novels with you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:23):
I want one who will write one with me.
I'll take that relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
So,
SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
anyhow.
Well, it's an awesome series.
SPEAKER_01 (44:31):
It is called the bromance book club.
I think the authors
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
name is that one.
SPEAKER_01 (44:38):
Yeah.
Lissa K Adams.
That's the author's name, butthey're definitely not in our
genre.
So that's just an offshoot.
They're 100% contemporary.
SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
No, I want to know.
I want the dude perspective onthe old school ones.
And by the way, anyonelistening, stop spelling it with
a K.
I barking hate that.
It's, Just spell it normally.
I think it's like a passiveaggressive dig.
Honestly, I feel like a lot oftimes I see online people when
they say use the term oldschool, they spell it S-K-O-O-L.
(45:13):
Oh, makes me crazy.
I
SPEAKER_01 (45:16):
think that's that's
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
That's a cultural thing that came from like I hate
it.
And I want to use.
Well, I think it's being appliedto a different area.
Like it applied to music and DJsand a particular.
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Oh, it comes across to me as disrespect.
SPEAKER_01 (45:31):
Well, it's, that's what I mean is people have taken
a term out of context andthey're applying it to other
things.
SPEAKER_00 (45:38):
And it just makes you look illiterate too.
And I also, I put it up there.
It's right along with this.
I know, I think there's analgorithm or some reason, but I
still, I think it needs to stopof people can't say words now
without putting stars in it andlike taking lead.
They can't say simple, basicwords like sex or rape or any,
you know, they take the...
SPEAKER_01 (45:58):
That's because there's so much AI that will
shut you out.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (46:02):
God.
SPEAKER_01 (46:02):
Yeah.
No, I mean, that's...
And
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
then it's alive.
It's fucking dead, okay?
They killed, they were murdered.
It's not unalive.
It's not even funny anymore,they say it so much.
It's like...
SPEAKER_01 (46:12):
Well, it's unalive started...
We're getting off topic here.
Unalive started as a synonym forsuicide because, again, these
posts are getting taken down byAI and then...
And like, then you'll bedisabled for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (46:29):
Well, not here.
We are going to use real wordshere.
Like grownups who have had anEnglish, had an education in
English.
SPEAKER_01 (46:38):
Yeah.
Just know that don't, we can'tput them in the, don't put them
in the description or elsethey'll get edited out.
We won't come up in algorithms.
But yeah, that's why peoplespecifically use those things is
so it doesn't get flagged andtaken down.
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Well, I guess we're, Running out of time here for
today.
SPEAKER_01 (46:56):
Yeah.
We probably should wrap up.
I feel like we've, you know, wecovered
SPEAKER_00 (47:00):
more.
We could say about overall thisbook.
I think we give it a B or Bplus.
SPEAKER_01 (47:04):
That sounds about right.
SPEAKER_00 (47:05):
It was good.
There were some flaws that weresignificant, but the good things
were good enough that it's, westill like it.
Yeah.
Connor was okay.
He's not a sexually ineptdoofus.
Yeah.
But
SPEAKER_01 (47:19):
he's, he's not going to be a book boyfriend of mine.
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
No, I mean, if he if we could somehow combine Connor
with Alec from the previousbook, that would have been more
ideal.
Yeah.
But like there was too much of asplit that you could take this
the best qualities from both ofthem.
That would have been a bookboyfriend.
Right.
All right.
Well, so the next time at somepoint, I guess we're going to
(47:43):
start talking about lace.
I think
SPEAKER_01 (47:46):
so.
So
SPEAKER_00 (47:47):
we're going to take a break from the historical
Bodice River.
Yes.
But this still is vintagebecause it was lace.
SPEAKER_01 (47:56):
Yes.
Came out in the 80s.
So you're 80s ladies talkingabout an 80s book.
SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
All right.
Well, have fun with your peniscookies.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
Enjoy.
All right.
See you next time.
See ya.
Bye.
UNKNOWN (48:12):
Bye.
So this is the holiday edition, which means
it's a mess because we aregetting ready for Christmas like
everybody else.
And we're talking and well, I'mdrinking like in my where I come
from.
Well, it's 11 o'clock.
It's around 11.
It's in the morning, 11-ish inPhoenix.
And in my house in New York,when I was a kid, my dad would
(00:30):
be drinking something by now.
So in honor of my family, I'mhaving a Sandra Lee ratio of
Frangelico and coffee.
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Which is cold now.
Is it Sandra Lee?
Who is the cooking show ladythat was like the massive
alcoholic?
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
Oh, I don't know.
I mean, I know who Sandra Leeis, but I don't know.
I know
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
because I know there's a cookie.
There's like a baked goods.
And then I don't know if it's asimilar name.
But anyway, she makes hilariousvideos about this and
unintentionally hilarious.
But anyway, we are talking aboutSo The Wedding by Julie Garwood.
And I didn't read this back inthe day.
I just picked it up, you know,not too long ago at a Goodwill.
(01:15):
And I did like it overall.
And I was surprised.
I didn't expect to.
I was just going to give it achance because I was bored.
And it's a, I don't know, whenwas it published?
Julie Garwood, I was like more,I had a little select group of
Avon authors that I read and shewasn't one of them.
But this was written...
Was it 19?
Well, it was published in 96.
(01:36):
Wow.
It wasn't even that vintage.
Anyway, it's two books.
So there's the bride and thewedding and they're both pretty
much the same format.
But where it's, of course, it'sa marriage of convenience
between a Scottish guy and anEnglish girl for some reason.
Scottish Highlander.
And this one I actually likebetter.
I like the second one better.
(01:58):
I just think the characters aremore, the guys, they're more
engaging.
And I didn't expect to like itbecause I typically do not like
the obtuse hero, especially whenthey're like sexually obtuse.
And I mean, I hate that, butthis one is, It was kind of cute
(02:20):
because he wasn't really...
I don't know if you thought so.
Do you think he was reallyobtuse sexually?
Because he kind of seemed likehe knew what he was doing, but
he was just kind of being kindof douchey in the beginning.
But the author was making it...
But Garwood was kind of makingit a purposeful point.
She's kind of like making fun ofthe fact that he was going to be
this Neanderthal man.
(02:42):
But he always...
Every time they interacted, hekind of caved immediately.
So it was kind of like a joke.
that he was not gonna be thisNeanderthal man?
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
mean, I don't know.
I thought like emotionally hewas completely stunted.
I don't know if I thought thatsexually he was stunted.
He seemed to have plenty ofexperience with that and no
trouble knowing what to do, buthe had like zero emotional
range.
And in fact, I get that he hadlike, you know, his mom
abandoned them and his dad diedearly and all that stuff, but
really he had such littleemotional intelligence that I
(03:11):
was like, were you raised bywolves?
Are you a feral person?
So that wasn't my take.
SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
And also the Brianna, the heroine, she was
almost too much.
I couldn't decide if she was toomuch because she was like
ridiculously like Mother Teresafor a lot of it.
And it's like no one, no humanperson is going to be that kind
in that face of that treatment.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
The problem I had with her, and it's interesting
because I feel like you see thismore in modern day romances,
was...
You know, in modern dayromances, I feel like you see a
lot of like the quirky girl.
I'm not like other girls, I'mquirky.
And I felt like that's what theywere trying to make.
Brenna's not like other girls.
She's like flippity jibbitin.
(03:56):
She forgets things, but shestands up and she's strong and
not afraid.
And it just, it got annoyingafter a while.
Cause I did, I felt like theywere trying to be like, she's
not like other girls.
And, and
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
that's been said, I noticed it.
I look, always look at commentsonline and good reads about
these books.
And a lot of people have said,you know, she's like
ridiculously perfect to her andthe other, the woman in the
other book, the bread, they bothlike can do everything
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
right.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
Like to a ridiculous degree, like in the other one,
she actually like stands up onthe horseback galloping and can
like shoot a bow and arrowbullseye and also do all this
other stuff around the house.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
And while she's so in touch with her feelings about
her husband and things likethat, she is so dumb that she
does not recognize the obviousmanipulation of the stepmother.
Like, how can you be so smartand intuitive about, oh, well, I
know Connor's pushing me away,but this is why he's pushing me
(04:53):
away.
I know this.
But she is...
not a moment crosses her mindthat this old lady has it out
for her.
You know,
SPEAKER_00 (05:01):
it's too bad because I liked a lot.
It had the bones of a reallyinteresting story.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yes.
And it was funny.
I liked that.
It was funny.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yeah.
That was what saved it from his,from him being too annoying with
his obtuseness and hisNeanderthal attitude, because it
was pretty funny.
I wish I wouldn't have to pullout some of the, like some of
the things he said werehilarious.
Like in the beginning, whenhe's, when he, kidnaps her and
they're traveling to Scotlandand she's like, I need comfort.
(05:30):
And he goes, he'll say thingslike, okay, I will comfort you
now.
Right.
And I love that because it'salmost like I was to think of
like an autistic, you know, it'salmost autistic in the way he
answers her.
Most of the books from thisperiod, the historical novels,
there's a prologue that sets upthe hero's entire personality
(05:52):
problem and this one is revengelike his father and his land
castle is all like attacked andjust and just his father's
killed and on his death so thisthe prologue connor the hero is
10 and his father and so thewhole plot is based on connor's
like revenge quest and hismarriage to brenna is part of it
(06:13):
but so he's 10 now and hisfather's dying and And as he's
dying, he says things like hislegacy.
He said, do you burn with thefever for revenge?
And let's see, watch me die andlearn how to live as a warrior.
And I didn't realize thisbecause it blows the whole story
(06:35):
for me now because I skimmed,you know, the boring parts too.
And I should, I got to go backand read it because I didn't
realize until just now that hewarns Connor about the
villainous, his second wife.
What's her name?
Euphemia?
He warns her.
When he's dying, he said,Connor's like, should I, you
know, tell her about this, thetrade?
(06:58):
You know, they're worried abouta traitor.
And he's like, no, you can'ttrust her and you can't trust
women.
Right.
And it's like, and so knowingthat now really kills the whole
problem that occurs later.
Right.
But yeah, so we were talkingabout Brenna, how she's so Mary
Poppins and Mother Teresa,really.
And Until this mother-in-law,she's like a stepmother-in-law
(07:23):
for Connor.
And she shows up like halfwaythrough the, you know, in the
middle of things and like justinstalls herself in their house,
in their castle.
And she's a major cunt toBrenna.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
And
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Brenna just takes it and doesn't think anything,
doesn't understand.
She thinks that she owes, sheknows she's being a bitch, but
she thinks that it's her dutyfor Connor's sake to, you know,
Tolerate it, which is insanebecause she's really, really,
really crazy mean.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Right.
And she has so littleself-confidence in her ability
to be a good wife and thatConnor likes her that the woman
is able to easily manipulate herby basically being like, oh,
yeah, your husband's soembarrassed by you.
You know, gosh.
And Brenna has so littleself-confidence that she can
(08:13):
make him happy that she fallsfor it.
you know?
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
also who doesn't, I mean, it's the oldest, it's
oldest time.
It's like the wife complainingabout the mother.
She doesn't, she and her wholething, this whole problem is
because she doesn't say anythingto Connor.
Yes.
She has to keep from, it's like,what's that?
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
I feel like there's so much of that.
And that is a super annoyingtrope to me in anything.
I mean, and I, I feel likenowadays it's a little bit It's
not used as much, but it wasn'tjust in novels.
I mean, I watched a lot of soapoperas and I think about All the
times that you're like, oh, Isee exactly where this is going.
(08:55):
He's going to walk in and he'sgoing to misunderstand what's
going on instead of like anormal person being like, what's
going on?
He's just going to storm off.
And, you know, and I feel likethere was a lot of that in this.
Like, oh, my God.
The
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
only time that works is if you have a reason, like
you're purposely keepingsomething because you want
something else.
You know, I mean, you're.
you're withholding informationto achieve another goal.
Right.
That's a different thing, but,and that would be better because
then you've got so much morestory potential there.
It's like, you know, how couldyou do this to me kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
We could have shaved off like 200 pages if they had
been
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
better communicators.
Right.
And it really bothered me in, atthe end where the big problem at
the end.
Yeah.
Where this guy, the villain thatattacks.
So that's, By the end of the,it's like the last third of the
book.
And this guy attacks Brennawhile Connor is away.
And it's not described.
(09:53):
It's like, there's no scene.
It's just like, it's justalluded to.
And it's like so frustratingbecause that should be a whole
chapter.
I mean, it should be a scenewhere he's.
you know, stalking her to herroom and then attacks her and he
falls out the window.
I mean, that should be a scene.
Right.
He's barely even, he's justmentioned off page for most of
the time.
He has like two lines ofdialogue with her, the whole
(10:14):
book, but yet he's the majorcause of this.
And
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
yeah.
And that's what I think, youknow, they spent like, I
listened to the audio book andafter they went on and on and on
and on about Brenna learning toride the horse bareback and all
the description and how she justbefuddled his two servants,
which can we not name them?
They were like Crispin andClover.
(10:39):
Like they were really, I don'tknow.
It was Crispin and something.
Oh, it was like Crispin andGriffin or something.
But I was like, yeah, I feellike I'm reading.
Lord of the Rings.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
I mean, it was just enough to tease like they should
be good, interesting characters,but it's like either make them a
part of the plot because theywere interesting people, but
they were just not enough to,it's either don't name them or
give us more of them.
And also don't give them namesthat are super similar so I can
tell which one servant from thenext.
UNKNOWN (11:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Although what is it?
Quinlan?
I did.
I was disappointed that Quinlanwas the coolest character in the
story and he should have hadConnors like friend, his second.
Oh, right, right, right.
Should have had his own book.
And I, I'm guessing that theJulie Garwood thought he was too
well adjusted, like to have hisown story, but I think it would
have been a really great,because he was the one, every
time Connor acted like a doofus,he was like, he was there
(11:30):
telling him, I think Briannawants this from you or needs
this.
Maybe you should be doing thisright now.
Yeah.
Like being his adult brain.
Right.
And it was kind of sad, butfunny also.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, and you know, some of itis, it's hard for me.
Obviously I know that this ishistorical and obviously women,
you know, had a much differentrole.
You know, it's very, very, verypatriarchal and all that type of
stuff.
But it just got super, in thebeginning, I feel like there was
(12:04):
a lot of, woman, why are youtalking?
You're supposed to only thinkabout me.
You're not even allowed to thinkabout your family.
I know that it was of its time.
So I get it.
I get that it was historicallyaccurate.
I get that we're takingourselves out of it.
It was hard for me to turn offmy modern sensibilities and not
just be annoyed at the fact thatshe was just basically property
(12:25):
for such a long time.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
That's why I really like some of the, it's one
reason why I really like more ofthe 70s, 80s books more because
they don't tiptoe around thisshit.
They just like put it out there.
The guy is just says and doesthings.
As he is.
And then they deal with thefallout.
They're not they don't make itlike a I don't know.
I think they just they end updoing a worse job of it by
(12:48):
trying to politicize it now andmake it be like, oh, you
shouldn't make her, you know,try and make her stand up for
herself.
But she really.
Right.
Right.
And I liked it better when theywere just like, this is who they
are.
This is the story.
And then they redeem themselvesby the end of the book.
But they weren't like half askedabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Never works.
Yeah.
But yeah, I mean, and plus, butit was kind of brutal.
I mean, they would, there'salways a kidnapping or a
capture.
True.
But in those books, they wouldjust be like, all right, I'm
taking you to my room now.
This is happening.
Right.
And then there was the fallout.
There wasn't like now, nowthey're just like, he doesn't do
(13:29):
it.
He's like, I want you to respectme.
But they still want him to be anasshole.
And it's like, that doesn'twork.
You have to have him be theasshole.
You can't just say he's thedark, Alpha, and then have him
be a Harlequin guy.
I
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
don't know, though, because, I mean, isn't that the
appeal of the dark?
Well, maybe not the appeal, butone of the appeals of the dark
guy is that the love of a goodwoman can turn his heart.
You know, everyone thinksabout...
Because, you know, if you'rethat good woman who turned the
(14:03):
asshole good, that must meanyou're freaking amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
Now it's always insta, you know, insta.
In the old days, it did not.
The attraction may have beeninstant, but it was there was a
lot of other stuff.
They did not instantly fall inlove.
Yes.
And that was better.
I mean, they got their event,you know, through the story.
they may have done things likesex and stuff in the meantime,
(14:26):
but it was troubled because theyweren't there yet emotionally.
Right.
So that was a story, but nowit's like instantly there's no
one else for them, but the otherperson, even though they're
trying to make this, you can'thave that tension happening.
Right.
With that.
When you start with that.
I mean, it's one thing if it'sa, that's the point.
It's a short little novella, butthat's not what these, some of
(14:48):
these are.
True.
I agree.
But in this one, I just, dad,when I went back and read the
prologue, some of the thingsthat dad is saying, this 10 year
old was killing me.
Watch me die and learn how to bea warrior.
Right.
Old boy.
Don't trust women.
They're bitches.
SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
Right.
Yeah.
I was like, good job, dad.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
And meanwhile, Brenna, who should have daddy
issues, doesn't.
She's just like her dad.
I mean, he leaves her in afield, you know, like twice.
Well, I
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
mean, you know, she's one of eight.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
Right.
Right.
He forgot to count.
He just like wakes up one dayand is like, oh, you're going to
marry a stranger in anothercountry today.
Bye.
Right.
She's like, oh, he means well.
He's my dad.
He's a good man.
Right.
Well, I'm really weird the wayhe was like described as a major
asshole.
But she talks about him likehe's this great dad.
(15:39):
I
SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
mean, I think isn't a lot of that like they don't
know any better.
You know,
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
and Connor's like, are you high?
Yeah.
That was one thing I did lovethat they had a lot of good digs
about the English from theScottish.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And some good jokes about that.
That's true.
And it was kind of funny the wayConnor was just, it was annoying
because he was too clueless, butit was also funny where he's
(16:04):
like attempting to give her whatshe wants to tell him what she,
she's like, I shouldn't have totell him this, but I'm going to
go ahead and tell him this so wecan have a good marriage.
And he's like, like trying tolike give her what she wants,
like, but not understanding atall why she wants it.
Exactly.
And it's just, I don't know, buthe did kind of, and it should,
(16:28):
again, it was too stunted at theend where he comes back and
he's, you know, horrified andupset that she's beat up and he
should have been there.
And that should have been moreextended and detailed too,
because it kind of was, theymade up too quick there.
Yeah.
Because he should have had tosuffer more for being so stupid.
SPEAKER_01 (16:47):
Yeah, I mean, but what were her choices?
You know, her sister kind ofwent over with her life.
You can't go home.
You're like married to this guyand you want to have kids, don't
you?
So, you know, I think that shekind of ended up in the whole
like, do you want to be happy ordo you want to be right?
You know, and I think she chosehappy.
I
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
did like this.
I know.
I just wanted when he came backand he was holding her and, you
know, he was so crushed that heleft her and that happened.
I just would have liked to seemore of his thoughts there.
Oh, yeah.
Like, you know, being so beatinghimself up a little bit more as
he should have.
But he did.
I mean, he did.
And that was kind of nice wherethey go and have that standoff
(17:27):
at the end.
Right.
It would have been good to havea book between Quinlan and her
sister because that looked likea good match.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
that's true.
Who knows?
Maybe Garwood wanted it and thepublisher said no.
SPEAKER_00 (17:40):
I mean, he was the best character in the whole
book.
He wasn't there nearly enough.
Yeah, but I should have not haveskimmed as much as I did.
But I like the wedding.
So he picks her.
So there's the prologue where itsets up Connor's his problem.
Right.
His whole thing is they have tofind this traitor, which should
be obvious to everybody, butisn't.
(18:00):
And then they introduce her andthey have.
Yeah, I skipped the whole part.
Her prologue was she meets him.
I don't understand this age.
I didn't get the math.
Because she was like five.
No,
SPEAKER_01 (18:11):
she said she was older.
He thought she was because hesays, yeah, I totally remember
me.
This is towards the end.
He says, I totally remembermeeting you.
You were like the same age as myniece, who's like five.
She's like, no, no, no.
I was actually way older thanthat.
I think she says she was like12.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Oh, OK.
No, OK.
No, no.
She was way younger because theywere talking about her like she
was a toddler.
They were.
But what 12 year old wouldn'tknow?
I mean, he picked her up.
she was hiding pigs under herskirt or something.
And he picked her
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
up.
I don't know.
Maybe it's a consistency thingthen, but he definitely says you
couldn't have been much olderthan grace.
And she's like five.
He wouldn't pick up a 12 yearold.
I mean, he wouldn't think so.
And she's like, no, I was mucholder.
So I don't know.
I mean, I
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
don't know how this happened in like the 11 hundreds
of 1200, whenever this was, butshe sent him by courier, like
three invitations to marry her.
Somehow as a child,
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
she asked him in person that one time.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
But then there was a couple of times after that,
because it said she sent him bymail a couple of other requests
to marry her.
I don't know how that happens,but she did.
And yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
basically, I mean, all that did was set it up.
So why he would pick her out ofall the people that it was like,
oh, well, you asked me in theboat like here.
You're my betrothed to my enemy.
So I'm going to go ahead andscrew this man over by taking
his betrothed.
And how I'm going to convinceyou to go along with it is
coincidentally, you proposemarriage to me as a child.
(19:44):
So that's what I'm going to useto get you to say yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
And he didn't really that was just like to get her to
be hopefully willing because hedidn't really need to do
anything to get her to say otherthan take her.
Right.
And then, so the wedding waskind of funny.
Like, she drew out this comicscene of her, of Brenna, like,
delaying the wedding for, like,an hour because she was so
nervous.
And all the guys just standingaround letting her do it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yeah, it was a little long.
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Yeah.
And so, but then, so they, hepicks her up in England, right?
And they have to travel byhorse, by land, to Scotland,
right?
Right.
So they get married right away.
And...
Oh, that's the other thing.
You know, she shows this sign ofcourage because she's the only
one of courage.
The men she's traveling with arecowards and she is the only one
(20:34):
with courage and stands up tothem.
But then she completely turnsinto a doormat, you know, in
Scotland.
But anyway, so he marries her onthe road and then he consummates
it on the road.
Like he just the first nightthinks he's going to just bed
down in the middle of camp.
Oh, right.
And she has to say, I think shewants you to like go down a
(20:59):
little
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
privacy.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Which is weird.
I don't know.
That seemed like I don't knowwho wouldn't want even a dumbass
like him should expect to bealone for that.
I would think it's not like.
I
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
don't know.
I mean, maybe he's been sleepingwith bar wenches and they don't
care where it is.
Like, who knows?
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
So they do that and they actually have sex and it's
fine.
I guess not that bad for her.
But she was only upset becausehe didn't comfort her afterwards
or didn't give her complimentsor something.
Yeah, it was that he didn'tcompliment her.
And he still didn't come around.
And that's one of the timeswhere I'm mad that she didn't...
(21:37):
She should have walked off anddrew them into some kind of
skirmish or something for beingsuch a jackass at that moment, I
think.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
That's what I mean by, like, he just was so...
I mean, I guess he was just usedto being the laird and the boss
and just did whatever he wantedwhenever he wanted.
But I think the thing was like,he could show consideration of
his men.
He was not like a, he wasn't asociopath.
You know what I mean?
He wasn't someone who could notput himself in the position of
(22:12):
others.
So the fact that he absolutelyjust was so dumb when it came to
her was, I don't know.
It just seemed exaggerated.
And I sound like I didn't likethis book.
And actually, I did like thisbook.
I probably give it like a B.
I think it was probably at least100 pages too long.
And I think that in some ways,they were caricatures in an
(22:34):
effort to not be like yourtypical Bodice Ripper
characters.
I think she went a little toofar.
But I do like the fact that shetried to create something
different.
Although, I feel like all thoseheroines, are feisty.
Like where's the book about likethe docile girl?
Like, you know, I don't know.
Maybe nobody wants to read that,but you know, they're all
(22:54):
feisty.
And in real life, there areplenty of complacent people.
Although I get married
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
too.
I did not like the whole thingabout leaving her horse and bags
behind.
That was so mean.
I mean, to not even say anythingto her about that.
And then that was, I
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
mean, it was like, you know, in modern day, we
would be like, well, that'sdomestic violence.
You are isolating her from herfamily, from her friends, from
her belongings.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
And then she just accepts that she's upset for
like a second.
And like that, I mean, sheshould have given him a cold
shoulder for like the rest ofthe trip.
Again, I think that, I mean,that was
SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
devastating for her.
That was like, would she haveeven, would it have even
occurred to her to do that?
Like, Well, good would it do.
She was married to him.
She had no agency.
She's in a foreign country.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
but to not even be like, I'm not talking to you.
Get away from me.
I mean, like, I hate you.
I mean, for like, I mean, formore than five minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:50):
I don't know.
I'm thinking she was brought upto be, I mean, think of how
crappy the mother-in-law was toher and she just sucked it up
with a smile.
I think she was probably raisedto always be pleasant, to always
swallow down.
I mean, in some ways shereminded me My grandmother was
born in 1920, and she was thedaughter of a Methodist
(24:14):
minister.
And she was really brought up tonever acknowledge or experience
negative emotions.
And it screwed her up later in
SPEAKER_00 (24:26):
life.
That's not humanly possible, Imean, to completely achieve
that.
I mean, it's just, there's noway.
It's just
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
impossible.
But I mean, I think it's she dida real good job.
She was very cheerful all thetime.
And I think she just shoved itdown.
SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
My grandmother was she was kind of like tonight,
like turn the other cheek.
But I think she was genuine.
But I don't know how she's likealmost like too impossibly nice.
Like my her in-laws familytreated her like crap.
And she was such an angelicperson.
And it's like I still don't.
And it seemed genuine.
It didn't seem like she wasrepressing anything.
(25:00):
And I just I.
I suppose it's possible for somepeople to be like that, but not
me.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
Yeah, I just I think especially, you know, she's part
of a big family.
She's been raised to be a wife.
You know, it's not like shedidn't have a mom there.
She was raised to be a wife.
She was yelled at when she wasrolling around with pigs.
And that's not ladylike thingsto do.
So I think
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
that I just don't understand how you don't feel
inside like.
Well, she maybe did.
How do you just not be like,just rage?
Just be like, just to not justeven be waspish sometimes to
somebody.
I mean.
SPEAKER_01 (25:31):
Well, but you're talking about two different
things.
You just said you don'tunderstand how she doesn't feel
that.
And then you said you don'tunderstand how she's not
waspish.
I think it's quite possible.
Brenna felt a lot of thosethings, but whether she didn't.
I felt like she could act onthose
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
feelings.
I mean, momentarily, not like,even if she was generally nice,
sometimes it must erupt, right?
It must get to be too much atsome point.
SPEAKER_01 (25:53):
I mean, it did, because that's why she would,
you know, tell him what she wasthinking.
You know, that's why she wouldbe like, I'm going to tell you
that you're wrong.
But then he got mad and sheimmediately backed down.
Because, again, this is adomestic violence story, you
know?
Like, he's isolated her.
He's made her completelydependent on him.
He's told her, this isdangerous.
(26:14):
This is dangerous land.
The only one who can protect youis me.
You have to wear my clothes tobe protected.
Well, that's when you stab
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
him in his sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (26:23):
But then she's left with nothing.
She's left in the highlands, youknow?
I mean, like I said, I agreewith you.
That's not the part of, like...
Strangely enough, most of thetime, you know, I'm the one who
gets irritated by like the mymodern sensibilities.
That one didn't bother mebecause I'm just like, yeah, I
mean, you know, what was shegoing to do?
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
But I mean, it was I did overall like it.
I mean, they were somehow shemade I think the characters
appealing enough where theirritating things weren't deal
breakers.
Yes, I
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
agree.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
And they did seem to genuinely like each other.
Yes.
They recognized the good partsabout each other despite the, I
mean, they wanted to have ahealthy relationship at the
bottom, you know, behindeverything.
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
Yeah, and he talked nice things about her.
I mean, he was like, yeah, mywife's super smart.
You know, she's like annoying,but she's real smart.
SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Yeah, it wasn't just she's so hot.
Right.
And so they admired theircharacters about each other.
Yeah.
But the plot holes were huge.
Like the villain, it was justnot shown at all.
So
SPEAKER_01 (27:30):
I'm glad to hear you say that only because that was
one of the times that I skippedahead because I was running out
of time.
And suddenly, like, I was like,oh, he must have come back.
Yeah, you didn't miss anythingbecause it wasn't written.
That's good.
That's good because I thought Ihad missed it and I was just
having to, like, figure it outfrom context clues.
But good to know that everybodymissed it because it didn't
(27:52):
occur.
And
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
it really takes away from that moment.
You know, that should have beenits own chapter where this guy
comes to her door and traps herin a room and they have this
struggle.
Right.
And, I mean, he...
Falls out the window because shestabs him accidentally trying to
save herself.
Right.
But she did.
She was kind of realisticallyhysterical about it.
(28:14):
You know, she was like, oh, myGod.
You know, she was kind of not inher right mind about it.
Like, oh, no, my no.
Connor's going to be upset withme because I killed his brother.
And, you know, it's like she wasirrational because she was in
shock.
SPEAKER_01 (28:27):
Although let's also go back to like where I'm like,
how could he be so smart and sodumb?
So.
She wants to tell Connor and shefeels like she should tell
Connor like out of respectbecause it's his half-brother or
step-brother or whatever.
And Connor, you know, is busyand whatever.
She has a couple opportunities.
I want to say the maid, her goodmaid, asks her a question and
(28:49):
then either his best friend orthe other soldier.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
The other guard directly asks her.
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
Like, why are you hurting you?
What's going on?
Yeah, we noticed that you have aknife at all times, that you're
super jumpy.
She says, no, I'm not going totell any of those people.
I'm going to tell the sexualabuser's mother.
Really?
And you were surprised.
I mean, yes, the mom went wayoverboard when she was like,
(29:15):
well, you should just give himwhat he wants.
But like, are you for real now?
She was going to be like, oh mygosh, that's terrible.
My son is a total sexual abuser.
Here, I will protect you.
I mean, I was just like, youhave...
zero sense of like strangerdanger or even like proximity
(29:36):
danger.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
That's a too stupid to live kind of thing.
Yeah.
But I mean, at the very leastyou could have had her attempt
to say something to somebody andbe intercepted or be
SPEAKER_01 (29:48):
prevented.
UNKNOWN (29:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
Something.
Or like, you know, she tries andthey don't believe her.
And so then that's why shedoesn't want to tell anybody
because she's like, nobody'sgoing to believe me anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (29:58):
That to me seems like I wonder, is that like
self-censorship in writing, youknow, for political reasons?
Like why?
You can't be that bad becauseshe's not that bad as a writer.
Otherwise, I still I can'tfathom why you would write it
that way unless you're trying toavoid something for public
opinion.
I mean, it just seems like anobvious mistake that you could
easily avoid in writing.
(30:19):
I mean, especially for you.
I mean, you're so absorbed inthis.
As a romance author, you'rereading them.
You know how these things...
You should know instinctivelysomething like that, I think.
Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
I don't know.
I mean, again, it could also belike a word count thing.
I mean, you know, why do youspend...
SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
I mean, it should just feel off as a writer, as
somebody who loves romance andis immersed in these plots.
I just can't...
It should come up like, thisisn't right.
You know, this doesn't feel...
Something's missing here.
I
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
don't know.
Maybe they had to have somethingdumb to drive the conflict.
You know what I mean?
Like, how else are you going toget rid of, finally make him on
her side and let her know thatwhen push comes to shove,
they'll choose Brenna overhis...
Vendetta, except he kind ofdidn't.
He just kind of lucked into it.
You know, he was like, oh, I'mgoing to go after the lady who
(31:12):
said that her son should goahead and rape my wife.
And bonus, she's in cahoots withmy mortal enemy.
So like two for one,
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
everybody's dead.
And then it's like at the end,it was just the ending was
really dissatisfying becauselike they finally find out who
the traitor is.
And they did.
They should have had a gruesomedeath scene there.
Yeah.
And nothing happened there.
It was, I mean, she died, butnot, it was just like, again,
pretty much off page.
Yeah, I agree.
(31:41):
So, but it was on the plus side,the characters like Connor,
Brenna, Quinlan, they were, theywere some great likable
characters and the interactionsor the, some funny dialogue.
Yeah.
Connor and Brenna, you know,mostly from Connor.
SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
Yes.
And I would say I liked thatbecause it wasn't, overly
flowery on the love.
I also liked, I felt like thelove scenes were described
pretty well.
Sometimes I joke with you that Ithink that romance writers have
a word bank and they're onlyallowed to use those words from
(32:22):
the word bank when they'redescribing love scenes.
And I feel like Julie Garwoodwent outside the word bank.
And that was good because thereweren't those ones that I'm
like, oh my gosh, this is socringy.
So I would say if I had to saypros, I did like the characters
for the most part, even though Ithink that they were in times
caricatures.
(32:43):
I thought there were a lot offunny parts and that was nice.
I thought that the love sceneswere written pretty well.
I like that.
He didn't rape her.
That was good.
You know, considering the genre,that was a plus for me.
You know, I do think it had kindof a good mystery slash villain.
There were parts in it where Ilagged.
(33:05):
And then I want to say once Igot going, once I got to like
the halfway mark, then I reallystarted to enjoy it.
But the traveling to Scotland,and I understand that's to kind
of help establish theirrelationship, but that just
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
went on.
And the forced proximity, youknow.
Yeah.
Once he's home, he's liketraveling all the time.
Right.
It just, it went on a lot, Ithought.
But yeah, I would almost wishyou could redo that, you know,
update it and just make it morewhat it just, If she redid it,
it would be awesome.
Like you said, the sex scenes, Ithink when they talk about what
makes a good sex scene, it'ssomebody wrote about this and
(33:43):
Greta, it's an erotica authorwrote about this, Greta
Christina.
And she said, and I like whather little writing about it.
She said, it's not just whatthey do or how they do it, but
it's what it means to them.
And if you convey that, likethat's the whole scene, a sex
scene.
And so I think she kind of, shewent a little beyond the
seventies, eighties era of, itwasn't closed door completely,
(34:06):
but it was a lot was alluded to.
Like they didn't really get asgraphic as they do now.
So she got a little more graphicthan they did in the old days,
but she also put in how theyfelt about it, what it meant,
you know, what, when it washappening.
So it made it more interesting.
It wasn't just like a, like amechanical description.
Right.
I agree.
And that's another reason why Ilike third person.
(34:28):
I get so sick of first personnowadays that they realize I
think it's lazy and And I thinkit's a lot of times results in
just bad writing because youcan't convey what you need to
from the first person sometimes.
And it's I just think it's wayoverused.
I wish they'd get work in morethird person POV.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
I guess.
I mean, you know, I tend to likethe dual POVs and I don't mind
if they're both first person.
You know, I don't mind that asmuch.
I guess you can have the dualPOV in a third person also.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
You found me, though, that villain.
She was so working.
You're frustrating.
Like she was like watching theMexican telenovelas and where
the mother gets to slapeverybody and nobody slaps her.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Or she was not Lady Macbeth.
But who's Hamlet's mom?
She reminded me of Hamlet's mom.
SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
I just wish they could have had a scene where she
fought back once, like even inprivate, where she like told her
off or something.
Right.
You know.
She never had a minute ofsatisfaction with that bitch.
You know, it's just sofrustrating.
I know.
So what else can we say about,so this holiday episode is
Monica's baking her cookies nowas we're talking.
(35:42):
Yes.
For her cookie business.
And I can't wait to, I wantyour, do you want to talk about
the, how did that come about thecookies that you just made?
I had
SPEAKER_01 (35:51):
a lady who's having, she's a repeat client and she,
has an annual Christmas partyand she likes some of the
cookies to be adult themed.
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
So, so you made, so what are you calling these
cookies?
Are we going to have a euphemismfor them or they just.
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
Usually when the people ask for them, they ask
for like, they'll just say, Iwant naughty cookies, you know,
something like that.
I mean, I did some, she was,hosting a bridal shower for
someone else.
And she was like, penises arefine.
I was like, all right, you know.
Hot cookies.
SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
Yeah.
Did you, is there a mold forthose or did you have to make
that yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (36:25):
Oh no, there's all kinds of cookie cutters for
that.
I have one, but there's so manydifferent ones.
And there's ones that are veryexplicit.
I kind of picked somethingthat's, you know, middle of the
road.
So this, you know, I mean, I
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
guess if someone- I thought they were pretty cool.
I saw, I like it.
Thanks.
So, and how did you get theflesh tone?
Oh, I
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
just, there's a website that there's actually
this really good website wherethis lady took the time to mix
up like 20 different skin tones.
And then she put the colorformula down for...
SPEAKER_00 (37:00):
Oh, and you can put the veins on them and
everything.
That's going to be next level.
UNKNOWN (37:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:05):
I mean, like I said, people do that.
People put all kinds of things.
But I
SPEAKER_00 (37:09):
think you should put the romance hero name.
We should name them for ourfavorite books.
That's so funny.
I will take an order of those.
There you go.
Is she having just like apersonal party?
Like, is this for a party?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
it was this past weekend.
I don't know.
She throws a lot of parties.
She used to have this really bigGalentine's party.
And last year, I believe, wasthe last year she had it.
And I went to that and she hadlike fire dancers and male
models dressed up as kind ofangels, almost like Victoria's
(37:44):
Secret angel type garb.
Where did she have this party?
At her
SPEAKER_00 (37:49):
house.
What?
She had fire dancers at herhouse?
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
In her backyard.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:53):
Was this in North Scottsdale?
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
No.
No.
No, I don't feel comfortablesaying where it is to protect
the identity of the client.
But yeah, so she's a great lady.
She likes to entertain.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
well, I'd like an invite.
Let her know.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
Yeah, and I love it because she usually says to me
like...
SPEAKER_00 (38:12):
That sounds like a fun party.
SPEAKER_01 (38:14):
Yeah, she usually says to me like, hey, I need
some cookies for this type ofparty.
It's a Christmas party.
Make a few of them naughty andgo wild.
She gives me pretty much...
Complete creative control.
So that's great.
That totally frees me up.
And usually in that case, peoplewill end up getting more
designs.
(38:34):
If you tell me that you've got,you know, that I've got complete
creative control, I've got somany things I want to do.
You'll probably get a lot morecookies or not more cookies, but
more different cookies and moreintricate cookies than if you're
like, okay, I want this, this,this, and this.
Then I pretty much stick tothat.
UNKNOWN (38:54):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
Well, as you're eating these cookies, I mean,
oh, so I wanted to pick a quote.
I always like to pick, some ofthese Goodread quotes are just
hilarious, but I didn't grab onefor this book, but I did want to
shout out to the person whorated Shadow's Claim by Cressley
Cole one star.
(39:16):
He goes, fuck you, Bettina.
You don't deserve Trahan.
Five stars for Trahan and zerostars for Bettina, stupid bitch.
Wow.
And that's basically true.
That is an accurate review ofthat book, but I don't know that
book.
I don't know if we'll ever getto read.
We should talk about it sometimebecause that is another book
(39:38):
where I think it had so muchpotential and there was a lot of
good things about it, but therewas a couple of things that I
just killed it for me.
And the heroin was, was the mainone.
Oh yeah.
And it's too bad because itcould have been so great.
But overall, the bride, thewedding was better than the
bride.
Only because I didn't like, Ijust thought the, in the bride,
(39:59):
the heroine was just ridiculous.
Too accomplished at everythingto an annoying degree.
And the hero was not thatlikable.
I mean, he wasn't that, I wantedhim to be more appealing than he
was.
But he wasn't as clueless likeConnor is.
SPEAKER_01 (40:18):
He was...
It's his cousin, Alex, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:24):
His brother, his adoptive brother, his brother by
loyalty.
SPEAKER_01 (40:27):
Yeah.
So, I mean, like I haven't readthat book, but I could, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
Yeah.
He's like that in his own bookand he never changes.
It's not that great.
I mean, it could have beengreat.
That's a book where if you'regoing to make a hero with that
personality, I want to see somedumb con, non-con.
I want to see some old school.
Yeah.
Hero is some old school alphatype.
Cause that's, you can't give himthat personality and have him
act with today's politics.
(40:53):
It doesn't work.
Right.
Right.
So he just was, I don't know.
There was some moments where hewas okay, but, but in, in the
hero, the heroine in that onewas too over the top.
Like she was good at everything.
She was like an Olympic athlete,supermodel, homemaker, Martha
Stewart.
Right.
Or the 11th, 12th century.
You know, it was justridiculous.
(41:15):
And she's a healer.
But in this one, so this one isbetter because even though he
was, you know, the kind of adoofus, he was also funny.
Yeah.
And he had a good heart.
And so he, you know, he actedlike he was going to be this.
He was trying to be this sexistdoofus jackass, but he kept
(41:36):
failing and inadvertently beingmore and more of a good guy.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (41:42):
Right.
Like an accidental good guy.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (41:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:45):
And the things, their dialogue was funny in a
lot of places, like kind ofthings he said was, she did a
good job with the dialogue forhim.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
Yeah.
And I think that that is, maybeit's easier when the guy isn't
as emotional and kind of a jerk.
I mean, one thing that Istruggle with, with modern
contemporary romances is whenthey write dialogue or
especially internal monologuesfor a man.
And I go, No, dude, I have evermet talks like that.
(42:18):
And I don't think they thinklike that.
And it really, you know, kind oftakes you out.
And maybe in this case, it waseasier because he didn't have a
whole lot of, you know, mushythoughts and stuff like that.
So she was
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
able to write.
Next time you come across thatin the book you read, ask Jason
what he would think in thatsituation.
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
It's funny.
So I had him recently read acontemporary romance that I
thought did.
SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
You read the whole thing or just a part of
SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
it?
He's read multiple because it'sa series.
Yes, he liked it enough.
He was willing to read theseries.
But I told him, I said, I think,I think this one seems to get
male dialogue and kind of POV.
right as well as I can know notbeing male, you know?
And I said, so I'm going to getyou this book.
(43:05):
And I got it for him.
And after about maybe a month, Isaid, hey, have you started that
book?
He was like, oh yeah, I'malready on book two and I have
book three on order.
SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
Wait, now is he into audio too?
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
No, he likes to read.
Okay, good.
So he read the books.
All right.
I have listened to almost all ofthem.
Because it makes a difference, Ithink,
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
you know, in your own head versus what you hear
somebody, a narratorcontributing.
I think it's a differentexperience.
SPEAKER_01 (43:33):
Yes, yes, I agree.
And I think I had listened tothose books, I think.
I don't think, maybe I read thefirst one, but then I listened
to the other ones just becausefrom a time standpoint, You
know, I can multitask.
I can listen to an audio bookand be mobile and do so many
(43:53):
other things.
But no, he read the books.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Wow.
And so what did he say about themale perspective?
SPEAKER_01 (43:59):
He thought it was good.
He thought it was written prettywell.
He thought that the dialogue waspretty good.
He thought that the characterswere really well drawn.
He said there were...
I think he's finally finishedthe series.
I haven't actually finished theseries.
I was like, save those on yourKindle and share them with me.
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (44:14):
that's a good marriage, guys, when you can
have a husband who will readyour romance novels with you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:23):
I want one who will write one with me.
I'll take that relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
So,
SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
anyhow.
Well, it's an awesome series.
SPEAKER_01 (44:31):
It is called the bromance book club.
I think the authors
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
name is that one.
SPEAKER_01 (44:38):
Yeah.
Lissa K Adams.
That's the author's name, butthey're definitely not in our
genre.
So that's just an offshoot.
They're 100% contemporary.
SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
No, I want to know.
I want the dude perspective onthe old school ones.
And by the way, anyonelistening, stop spelling it with
a K.
I barking hate that.
It's, Just spell it normally.
I think it's like a passiveaggressive dig.
Honestly, I feel like a lot oftimes I see online people when
they say use the term oldschool, they spell it S-K-O-O-L.
(45:13):
Oh, makes me crazy.
I
SPEAKER_01 (45:16):
think that's that's
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
That's a cultural thing that came from like I hate
it.
And I want to use.
Well, I think it's being appliedto a different area.
Like it applied to music and DJsand a particular.
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Oh, it comes across to me as disrespect.
SPEAKER_01 (45:31):
Well, it's, that's what I mean is people have taken
a term out of context andthey're applying it to other
things.
SPEAKER_00 (45:38):
And it just makes you look illiterate too.
And I also, I put it up there.
It's right along with this.
I know, I think there's analgorithm or some reason, but I
still, I think it needs to stopof people can't say words now
without putting stars in it andlike taking lead.
They can't say simple, basicwords like sex or rape or any,
you know, they take the...
SPEAKER_01 (45:58):
That's because there's so much AI that will
shut you out.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (46:02):
God.
SPEAKER_01 (46:02):
Yeah.
No, I mean, that's...
And
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
then it's alive.
It's fucking dead, okay?
They killed, they were murdered.
It's not unalive.
It's not even funny anymore,they say it so much.
It's like...
SPEAKER_01 (46:12):
Well, it's unalive started...
We're getting off topic here.
Unalive started as a synonym forsuicide because, again, these
posts are getting taken down byAI and then...
And like, then you'll bedisabled for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (46:29):
Well, not here.
We are going to use real wordshere.
Like grownups who have had anEnglish, had an education in
English.
SPEAKER_01 (46:38):
Yeah.
Just know that don't, we can'tput them in the, don't put them
in the description or elsethey'll get edited out.
We won't come up in algorithms.
But yeah, that's why peoplespecifically use those things is
so it doesn't get flagged andtaken down.
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Well, I guess we're, Running out of time here for
today.
SPEAKER_01 (46:56):
Yeah.
We probably should wrap up.
I feel like we've, you know, wecovered
SPEAKER_00 (47:00):
more.
We could say about overall thisbook.
I think we give it a B or Bplus.
SPEAKER_01 (47:04):
That sounds about right.
SPEAKER_00 (47:05):
It was good.
There were some flaws that weresignificant, but the good things
were good enough that it's, westill like it.
Yeah.
Connor was okay.
He's not a sexually ineptdoofus.
Yeah.
But
SPEAKER_01 (47:19):
he's, he's not going to be a book boyfriend of mine.
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
No, I mean, if he if we could somehow combine Connor
with Alec from the previousbook, that would have been more
ideal.
Yeah.
But like there was too much of asplit that you could take this
the best qualities from both ofthem.
That would have been a bookboyfriend.
Right.
All right.
Well, so the next time at somepoint, I guess we're going to
(47:43):
start talking about lace.
I think
SPEAKER_01 (47:46):
so.
So
SPEAKER_00 (47:47):
we're going to take a break from the historical
Bodice River.
Yes.
But this still is vintagebecause it was lace.
SPEAKER_01 (47:56):
Yes.
Came out in the 80s.
So you're 80s ladies talkingabout an 80s book.
SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
All right.
Well, have fun with your peniscookies.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
Enjoy.
All right.
See you next time.
See ya.
Bye.
UNKNOWN (48:12):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com