December 3, 2024 • 26 mins
The one where we decide over coffee that there aren't enough positive podcasts about old school romance. Monica and I introduce ourselves and have a conversational montage about sundry romance topics.
This one is supposed to sound like we recorded it on a boombox on cassette.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
You know, I started off with some of those bodice
rippers, but I probably startedoff with like the old school
Regency Barbara Cartland ones,which are, you know, pretty
tame.
My mom loved to read romancenovels.
She was more a fan of likeDanielle Steele, the more kind
of contemporary ones.
But I read, you know, the onesthat would have had Fabio on the
(00:31):
cover.
And definitely probably startingin high school and in college, I
had a roommate that we wouldjust trade those kind of books.
As I've come along and gottenolder, my taste in romance has
kind of evolved.
So I haven't read as many ofthose older ones anymore.
(00:53):
But I definitely read the JoannaLindsay's and the Kathleen
Woodewis and then even kind ofthe Judith Krantz and Jane Anne
Krantz and all of those ones.
It is more modern, but to me, itis a quintessential 80s romance
novel.
And that is Lace by ShirleyConran.
And it was made into aminiseries.
And I saw the miniseries beforeI read the book.
(01:14):
But the book is definitely likean 80s.
It's not straight up romance,but there's enough romance and
steam that I feel like it's amust discuss at some point.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
What was the basic synopsis?
I know that's familiar.
I don't remember the
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
synopsis.
Three girls were off at aboarding school.
It starts kind of in the middle.
It flashes back.
It starts in the middle with ayoung adult film actress showing
up at a hotel to see these threegrown women.
And her famous line is, whichone of you bitches is my mother?
And it flashes back to whenthese girls were all in boarding
school.
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
Oh, wow.
Blast from the past.
Yeah.
I know I must have seen that,but oh, that'll be great.
Phoebe Cates was in the
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
miniseries.
She was the lead.
I don't enjoy history.
So that's part of why I stoppedreading historical novels.
That doesn't do it for me.
I'm much more interested incontemporary stories.
I'm not interested in history.
And I think some of it, yes, isthe things where we talk about
with modern views that we'll getinto about Consent and things
(02:18):
like that.
But part of it is, I think someof those books appeal to young
girls because it's the sweptaway.
It's the Disney princess.
My prince comes and I'm going tobe safe and I'm going to be
cared for.
And this is love.
And as I became older and hadrelationships and matured and
(02:39):
saw that, it seemed real.
I wasn't waiting for my princeto come anymore.
So I wasn't necessarily, youknow, those books weren't as
interesting to me once I had hadan opportunity to see what real
romance or real life was like.
Not to say that they don't playa role in terms of escapism.
If I was looking for escapism,that would be a great place to
(03:00):
go, right?
It doesn't have to be realisticto be enjoyable.
See, and I see it as like a lackof agency, right?
I don't want to wait around forsomeone to save me.
I think that's why they havetheir role in like, if that's
something that appeals to youeither for your real life or for
just a sense of escapism, theyhave their role there.
(03:23):
Just like, you know, there areplenty of people who hate smutty
books.
They don't want to read thesmut.
That's not something thatinterests them.
And so, you know, I think it'smore just a matter of personal
preference.
I personally, Don't find theswept away thing interesting
anymore, but it doesn't meanthat it's a bad thing.
(03:44):
It just means it's not my thing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah, we read kind of different books.
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Right.
But I mean, like, yeah, I mean,I think there are those people
who will say, yeah, I love theFifty Shades, but hate the swept
away Bodice Rippers.
I find those heroines annoyingin both books.
I'm like, you're a dummy, youknow, like you're a fool.
Grow up and take someresponsibility for your actions.
especially in the verytraditional submissives.
(04:12):
He's a billionaire boss.
She's a 20-year-old down on herluck, things like that.
No matter the setting, I'muninterested in the stupid young
girl.
What I perceive, what to meseems like a stupid young girl.
I'm not saying that she'sstupid, but when I look at that,
I go, you're a dummy and I'm notinterested in what happens to
your story because I think thatyour choices are poor and that's
(04:33):
why you're in this position.
But again, that's not sayingthat that's a- bad thing.
That's just, you know, I readreviews all the time on
Goodreads where people are like,I hated the main character.
She was so annoying.
She was the cause of all of herproblems.
And I thought, I loved that maincharacter.
She was spunky.
She was understandable.
I could see why she made thosebad choices.
(04:54):
It's just a matter of, you know,personal preference and
perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
I don't know.
Do you think it is possible tohave better conflict from the
hero and heroine, the maincharacters?
and still have it be a romance.
I mean, does it have to be athing of romance where they are
so fucking stupid where theconflict is either just not
there or it's just juvenile andavoidable and not make it like a
(05:19):
chick lit drama.
You know what I mean?
Still fit the parameters ofromance.
I don't know where you say whereit's not like where they make
more, the kind of heroine thatyou like, you're saying that
you've, what is it that you needit to be more equal that you
need it to be like less of apower imbalance?
Yes.
What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Well, I mean, you know, like I said, for example,
the tropes that are very muchlike he's the 27 year old
billionaire, which like, whereare those guys?
They don't, that doesn't exist,but okay.
So we're in fantasy land wherethere are tons of eligible 27
year old unmarried, just waitingto be wonderful, you know, men
out there.
And none of them arecontemporaries.
(06:01):
None of them are theircontemporaries, these smart
businesswomen or the women who,God forbid, are even richer than
them.
They're never attracted to them.
It's always the young girl who,despite having smart and coming
out of a good school or havingskills or things like that, is
(06:22):
completely focused on her roleas a romantic partner, right?
So, I mean, I don't know.
I mean, like, Is it a romancewithout your either external
trope, the long lost girlfriend,the misunderstood conflict where
I hear a conversation andinstead of being like a normal
person and being like, hey, whatwere you talking about in that
(06:45):
conversation?
I instead sweep up and run awayand go to my mother's house and
those types of things outside ofthose.
I mean, I don't know.
What would you create as arealistic conflict?
Like I fell in love with him.
but we have religiousdifferences and can we work
through them?
He wants kids and I don't, youknow, those types of conflicts.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
I guess not.
I mean, I don't mean maybe thatnot the conflict has to fit, but
it can be over the top.
It can be fantasy, but it has tomake sense.
You know, it can be, it has tobe, I mean, adults make stupid
decisions, but they do them forreasons.
You know, they don't do itbecause they're, you know, 12
years old mentally oremotionally and they might be
jealous or angry and, you know,but it, You can see why, as an
(07:30):
adult, they would make thatmistake, even if it was a
terrible thing
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
to do.
I mean, but show me a romancemovie.
Show me a big box office movie,not some little indie film, but
show me a box office movie wherethe main thing is a romance
between two 50-year-olds whoare...
having an adult type ofrelationship.
They're not there as parents.
(07:54):
They're not, you know, this isnot the parent trap where you're
putting them back together.
This is not, oh, we're justplatonic and we're going to
kiss.
It's a Hallmark movie.
I mean, I don't see those.
I think it's more than justbooks.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Okay.
But an adult type relationshipsounds boring.
And I want these 50 year olds tobe having a romance novel
relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Right.
But I mean, I'm saying, do yousee those?
I was going to say, I thinkthat's a much bigger thing when
we're talking about romance andwe're talking about sex.
I mean, does Victoria's Secrethave 50 year old models?
No, they don't.
Do you see 50 year old women ormen doing anything in culture or
media that presents them asromantic, attractive, that
(08:34):
sexual, those types of things?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
That's why I was surprised when that show
Lucifer, I mean, it's over now,but I remember I was being
surprised that almost the wholecast of actresses were at least
in their forties, you know?
And so I thought that was prettycool that it wasn't a theme.
It wasn't like these old ladies,you know, it was, they were
having normal sexual, you know,storylines and it was just what
(09:00):
it was.
So I applaud that decisionproducers of Lucifer, but of a
huge trope.
Now a popular trope is the agegap.
And I, First of all, it'shilarious with what some people
think an age gap is.
It's like less than 10 years.
And they're like, ew.
I mean, I think it.
But then there's a ton of bookswhere the man is 40 to even 50,
(09:24):
somewhere in that range.
And the girl is 18, 19, 20.
Yes.
There's a ton of those.
And there are only a few.
I've seen a few in reverse, butthey're gross.
And it kind of bothers me aboutmyself that I find it...
On the one hand, they're grossbecause the stories that I read
were bad.
But there's also an element of,ew, because she's the older one
(09:48):
and he's like 18.
And I'm like, okay, that's tooyoung.
I would disagree with that.
SPEAKER_00 (09:53):
In real life, sure.
But what about the 40-year-oldwoman who just wants the
18-year-old boy toy, who can goand go and go and go?
He doesn't need to be there forher.
He doesn't need to have a realjob.
He's there to be pretty and begood in bed.
I think that fantasy can be outthere.
I mean, I think the thing is,like, if we're going to get mad
(10:18):
at people yucking on those oldbodice rippers because they're
like, who would want that?
I don't feel like I can judgethe person whose kink is, I'm 40
and he's 18.
You know, like, it's not mything.
No,
SPEAKER_01 (10:34):
I'm not judging.
I'm
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
not judging.
That is part of it.
I'm trying to picture a50-year-old heroine who we could
explain why she is single at 50without it being a
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
negative.
It's not that I need everybodyto be my age in a book, but they
kind of are intentionallyderogatory to older people,
older age groups in these books.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Yeah.
I think another thing that holdsback from having the thing that
makes them more likely to haveage gap with an older man or
even just an older man, youknow, male main character rather
than an older female maincharacter is a lot of romances,
a ton of romances end up withmarriage and a baby, right?
Children.
(11:22):
What do you have in 50 year oldwomen?
Probably not childbearing.
So if that is part of yourthing, that we are setting them
up for a happily ever after andshe has a baby in the plan or
it's a surprise baby or it's ahidden baby or any of those
things, your older femalecharacter cannot run down that
path.
And I feel like that is so muchof what is expected at the end.
(11:45):
Even me, when I'm readingthings, I was just reading one
and I really, really liked it.
And it was a book that It'scalled Mother Faker.
And the lady is like early 40sand divorced.
And he's actually early 40s.
He's her boss.
She's like a single mom.
And he ends up with her and, youknow, basically, like raise
(12:07):
helps to raise her because hedoesn't adopt them because
Divorced dad is in the picture.
So, but anyway, I kept thinking,oh, and now she's going to be
pregnant and they're going tohave babies together.
And like, no, they didn't.
They were happy with, you know,went off with the family that
she already had.
But I mean, it was kind of like,to me, it's like, it's so
expected in those romancenovels, whether it be old school
(12:27):
ones or new ones.
Now, I think that if we acceptthat people that writers can
write about plenty of thingsthat they had to use their
imagination for that are not atall like real life, then we
can't necessarily excuse awaytheir unwillingness to imagine
an older female sexual being.
(12:50):
Like if you can imagine a dragonshifter, which very clearly
doesn't exist in real life, youcould imagine a super hot 54
year old woman.
But I do think, you know, right.
But you also have to, I thinkyou have to find your market,
right?
Shit talking, old romanticmovies that have very similar
(13:14):
kind of what we might calloutdated movies.
views on romance orrelationships or male field
dynamics.
I mean, forget about any sort ofnon-hetero relationship in a
1940s romance movie that didn'texist.
But I don't hear people, I hearpeople who are more able to
recognize that they were a thingof their time.
(13:36):
You know, like I listen to a lotof old time radio and I listen
to a podcast that discusses oldtime radio and they'll talk
about, I mean, some of them havestuff that's just really bad.
You know, they have a characterthat is supposed to be Asian
being played by a white personwith a completely stereotypical
Asian accent or, or Hispaniccharacter who has such a, just
(14:00):
really harmful stereotypes.
And I, they can talk about thefact that this chunk of this is
really not good.
Now that we know better, we go,ooh, that's really cringe.
That part is very cringe, but wecan see these other portions and
recognize the strengths of this.
(14:22):
I'm not saying that we justwrite off everything as of its
time, you know, because Isometimes think that's a cop
out, you know, when people arelike, well, you know, that was
grandma's generation when theysaid that.
I was like, grandma has aniPhone.
Grandma figured out Facebook.
So grandma can figure out thatwe don't call black people that
particular word that grandmajust used anymore.
(14:43):
So I think that your point iswell taken that There is nuance
and you can find a lot ofstrengths in older things while
still acknowledging, eh, this isproblematic.
And then it just depends on howfar the individual reader gets.
I mean, we talked a little bitabout Shaina, right?
(15:04):
I had trouble getting past someof those things that are less
acceptable today.
I had trouble with that with thedependent woman.
I thought that she was a brat.
I did not understand why a guywould be interested in her other
than for her body.
So that was not particularlyinteresting.
So I was like, she's a pain inthe butt.
(15:24):
She doesn't really talkintelligently about anything.
She's like a petulant child.
Okay, I guess all he wants andall he ever talks about is how
gorgeous she is, right?
Well, that's kind of shallow.
And I couldn't get past that.
And I understand that you saythat as it goes on, they do
develop a true relationshipthat's built on more than just
lust.
But I...
just got so annoyed with her.
(15:46):
And then for me, because we viewconsent differently, not you and
I, but today's world viewsconsent differently, I had
trouble.
I think if there had been enoughother things I liked about the
book, I could have overlookedthat.
I could have been like, eh,that's not great, but I just, I
(16:09):
couldn't move past that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
First of all, I don't think you can police
people's sexual fantasies.
I mean, you can speculate andanalyze, but I don't think it is
fair or even healthy to startcriticizing people for a rape
fantasy or a non-con or a dovecon or any of that stuff because
who's the boss of that?
For other people, that's justnot good.
But there are, nevertheless,there are cases where it's
(16:33):
clearly new, and I don't thinkthis is one of
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
them.
I understand what you're sayingabout a deal.
It is very difficult for me toexamine it and take away the
modern lens.
Because if someone said to mydaughter, I'm going to take you
out to dinner.
I'm going to buy you anexpensive dinner.
So I guess the question is, atwhat point is it okay to say no
(17:00):
and remove consent?
And at what point would you say,well, I've said no.
this is too big of a deal andyou can't go back on it.
I mean, which leads me to thebigger part of the consent or
lack of consent.
Wasn't the deal breaker for me,but because I didn't have
anything else in there.
I mean, you just sat there anddescribed all the ways that
(17:21):
she's a shitty character.
She's a shitty person.
She's there to use him to getaway from her father.
And she is dishonest with himand makes bargains.
She has no intention offollowing through on.
So even if I could overlook theconsent, why would I want to
keep reading about this?
(17:42):
Like you're a gross person.
That is more of a, I guess whatI'm saying is we have different,
like people in general havedifferent things that they can
overlook.
Right.
And if you have enough thingsthat you like, I mean, we have
that friend, right?
That friend who you're like, oh,they have that flaw that is so I
(18:04):
generally really don't like, butthey have all these other good
things that I like.
So I'm willing to put up withthat.
I think the reason it exists ina fantasy is that even if it
doesn't seem like there'schoice, there is choice.
I don't think anybody fantasizesabout being in a situation where
(18:25):
they truly have no choice,right?
If you...
like the idea of ravishment,there's a point in you that
thinks that, yes, but if thiswas really, really bad, if I was
really being hurt or reallybeing scared or really this, I
have the choice to stop this.
I don't think that any, and Ithink that that's what makes it
(18:45):
a fantasy, right?
Because you've always got a safeword.
You just close the book.
That's your safe word.
I mean, that is the other thing.
If we're talking about Shana, Idid not get far enough into the,
book to truly see if Rurik was agood person.
I mean, I got far enough to seethat, like, he was great on the
plantation, right?
(19:05):
He had all these greatinnovative ideas and he seemed
to be a really good worker.
But, well, and I think that somany of the older ones that I
read, even when they are steamy,they are written from the male
pleasure perspective, right?
And so that's a difference thatI see in more contemporary ones.
(19:27):
You see ones where there's moregoing on and we acknowledge that
maybe we're going to considerthe woman's pleasure and maybe
tonight the man goes home alittle bit unsatisfied, but the
lady does not.
And I don't feel like I sawthose in the historical ones.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
But I'll tell you what, I am very surprised still.
I've read a lot of thecontemporary books and Some of
them I hate a lot, some of themI love, but I still cannot
believe how for all the talkabout equality and progress and
blah, blah, blah, that how theseheroes or male characters now
treat the women that are in thebooks because it's very, very
(20:09):
misogynist, patriarchal.
It's even many times worse thanit was in the vintage
historicals.
I mean, they're horrible.
and the women don't at least inthe vintage books they fought
back initially they might havecaved in but they were like you
at first and they were like i'mgonna fight this and you
(20:29):
overpowered her but now they'rejust they just take it and i
just like what are you doingyou're talking about this
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
and i find in the contemporaries that that is
equally annoying like i said didi read All the Fifty Shades and
the ones that were in that, theCrossfire and all those, I did
because the steam is good.
But the fact that the guys,yeah, they were jerks.
I mean, I did not find thatappealing.
(21:00):
When I was young...
I believed, I watched a ton ofsoap operas.
My mother loved soap operas.
I watched the daytime ones.
I watched the nighttime ones.
And I very much feel like thosegave the message that with the
love of a good woman, this mancan be changed, right?
(21:24):
And that's not real life.
That's why women get themselvesinto stupid, toxic
relationships.
So I don't like it in thosecontemporary ones where I was
like, he's an asshole.
I know that he's rich and superhot, but surely you can find
somebody.
Maybe they don't have a billiondollars.
Maybe they're pulling in like$100,000 and they're hot, but
(21:47):
they're also going to be nice toyou.
So I find that annoying, even inthe contemporary.
books, the poor treatment, theasshole jerk imbalance of power.
Maybe that's their kink.
Maybe they like that.
Maybe they like being demeaned.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Actually, there's interesting parallels between
that.
And we want to talk about thetropes that people denigrate in
old school, but eat up in thenewer genres.
But I don't think that's goodfor women.
I don't think it's good forolder women.
I mean, you can't do thatwithout hurting women and
hurting romance.
You have to at least, you don'thave to like what other people
(22:27):
like, but you have to be able tocriticize without writing off a
whole generation of
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
women.
I think it's also assuming that,I mean, you and I have had this
whole discussion, right?
I am much more a reader of,though you and I are peers,
right?
We're about the same age.
I am more a fan of thecontemporary and you were more a
fan of the ones that werewritten back then.
To assume that only someone ofyour age enjoys those, that
(22:59):
there's not some 18 or12-year-old out there who's
today's 12-year-old who'sreading those books and loving
them, I mean, I think it's kindof silly.
So yeah, I mean, I think that weneed to acknowledge that there's
going to be people of all agesto whom those books
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
are
SPEAKER_00 (23:15):
written.
What about the argument that theartistic freedom was never
there?
It's just been shifted, right?
Because before the days of likeself-publishing, who were the
arbiters about whether anythingwas going to get out there?
Publishing houses, right?
If they decided they didn't likeyour view, nobody was reading
your book.
Now, with self-publishing...
(23:38):
I don't think that there's anymore freedom.
I don't think there was morefreedom before.
I guess what I'm saying is nowit's just a different person
telling you, I don't like yourviews.
I don't want these views outthere.
It's Joe commenter, not RandomHouse.
But I still think that wasthere.
I think there were people whodecided that view is not
(23:59):
something that we think shouldbe put out there.
And therefore, we're notpublishing your book.
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
I'm going to say the market is there for a lot of
this romance stuff.
There are just people saying itshouldn't be out there and
available, but there is amarket.
They're just, you know, it's notthat nobody wants to read these
things.
Right.
So how are people saying youcan't
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
read these things?
You should not, you should not.
So as an author, if you'rewriting something that someone
tells you, you shouldn't write,but you believe there's a market
out there, how do you reach thatmarket?
How do you, get those otherpeople who are going to say to
the same reviewer i don't agreewith you you don't get to tell
me what i like like how do youfind those people because if
(24:39):
they're there they're thereright so
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
you put it out there and they sell or they don't sell
but then you get somebody makesa video that goes viral that
criticizes it and theneverybody's hating on you and
then you know you have to takeyour books down or be you know
what you know constantly houndedon social media for, or somebody
wants you to take your booksdown or Amazon wants to take it
down because now everybody inthe universe is saying you're a
(25:04):
whatever.
Oh, so.
All right.
So I guess I'm never going toget you to read a, um, my
favorite shifter, my polyamorousparanormal dragon shifter.
Like
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
I'm hoping we're like, I'm not much of a fan of
fantasy, but I will give thatone a try.
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
I didn't think I would be.
I'll tell you what.
When I started reading romanceagain, I was like, I am going to
stick with my historicalsbecause all of this, forget
today, the modern stuff, kidstoday, you know, all that.
But then, then I found dragonshifters and my perspective
changed a little bit, especiallythe ones where, and then I'm
like, oh, it's only going to betwo people.
I can't imagine who we want toread about, you know, like more
(25:42):
than two people gross.
And then, and then I found AmyPenza's like dragon shifter, her
universe is these dragons and,There's two guys, two dragon
shifters that are lovers forcenturies until they find, they
mate in threes, but they're notcomplete until they find their
third, who is a woman.
Okay.
And then they have this whole,and I'm like, who would have
(26:05):
ever thought?
You might think that doesn'thave a sign of healing, but it
actually can be.
I will give that a try.
UNKNOWN (26:14):
Okay.
You know, I started off with some of those bodice
rippers, but I probably startedoff with like the old school
Regency Barbara Cartland ones,which are, you know, pretty
tame.
My mom loved to read romancenovels.
She was more a fan of likeDanielle Steele, the more kind
of contemporary ones.
But I read, you know, the onesthat would have had Fabio on the
(00:31):
cover.
And definitely probably startingin high school and in college, I
had a roommate that we wouldjust trade those kind of books.
As I've come along and gottenolder, my taste in romance has
kind of evolved.
So I haven't read as many ofthose older ones anymore.
(00:53):
But I definitely read the JoannaLindsay's and the Kathleen
Woodewis and then even kind ofthe Judith Krantz and Jane Anne
Krantz and all of those ones.
It is more modern, but to me, itis a quintessential 80s romance
novel.
And that is Lace by ShirleyConran.
And it was made into aminiseries.
And I saw the miniseries beforeI read the book.
(01:14):
But the book is definitely likean 80s.
It's not straight up romance,but there's enough romance and
steam that I feel like it's amust discuss at some point.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
What was the basic synopsis?
I know that's familiar.
I don't remember the
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
synopsis.
Three girls were off at aboarding school.
It starts kind of in the middle.
It flashes back.
It starts in the middle with ayoung adult film actress showing
up at a hotel to see these threegrown women.
And her famous line is, whichone of you bitches is my mother?
And it flashes back to whenthese girls were all in boarding
school.
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
Oh, wow.
Blast from the past.
Yeah.
I know I must have seen that,but oh, that'll be great.
Phoebe Cates was in the
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
miniseries.
She was the lead.
I don't enjoy history.
So that's part of why I stoppedreading historical novels.
That doesn't do it for me.
I'm much more interested incontemporary stories.
I'm not interested in history.
And I think some of it, yes, isthe things where we talk about
with modern views that we'll getinto about Consent and things
(02:18):
like that.
But part of it is, I think someof those books appeal to young
girls because it's the sweptaway.
It's the Disney princess.
My prince comes and I'm going tobe safe and I'm going to be
cared for.
And this is love.
And as I became older and hadrelationships and matured and
(02:39):
saw that, it seemed real.
I wasn't waiting for my princeto come anymore.
So I wasn't necessarily, youknow, those books weren't as
interesting to me once I had hadan opportunity to see what real
romance or real life was like.
Not to say that they don't playa role in terms of escapism.
If I was looking for escapism,that would be a great place to
(03:00):
go, right?
It doesn't have to be realisticto be enjoyable.
See, and I see it as like a lackof agency, right?
I don't want to wait around forsomeone to save me.
I think that's why they havetheir role in like, if that's
something that appeals to youeither for your real life or for
just a sense of escapism, theyhave their role there.
(03:23):
Just like, you know, there areplenty of people who hate smutty
books.
They don't want to read thesmut.
That's not something thatinterests them.
And so, you know, I think it'smore just a matter of personal
preference.
I personally, Don't find theswept away thing interesting
anymore, but it doesn't meanthat it's a bad thing.
(03:44):
It just means it's not my thing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah, we read kind of different books.
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Right.
But I mean, like, yeah, I mean,I think there are those people
who will say, yeah, I love theFifty Shades, but hate the swept
away Bodice Rippers.
I find those heroines annoyingin both books.
I'm like, you're a dummy, youknow, like you're a fool.
Grow up and take someresponsibility for your actions.
especially in the verytraditional submissives.
(04:12):
He's a billionaire boss.
She's a 20-year-old down on herluck, things like that.
No matter the setting, I'muninterested in the stupid young
girl.
What I perceive, what to meseems like a stupid young girl.
I'm not saying that she'sstupid, but when I look at that,
I go, you're a dummy and I'm notinterested in what happens to
your story because I think thatyour choices are poor and that's
(04:33):
why you're in this position.
But again, that's not sayingthat that's a- bad thing.
That's just, you know, I readreviews all the time on
Goodreads where people are like,I hated the main character.
She was so annoying.
She was the cause of all of herproblems.
And I thought, I loved that maincharacter.
She was spunky.
She was understandable.
I could see why she made thosebad choices.
(04:54):
It's just a matter of, you know,personal preference and
perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
I don't know.
Do you think it is possible tohave better conflict from the
hero and heroine, the maincharacters?
and still have it be a romance.
I mean, does it have to be athing of romance where they are
so fucking stupid where theconflict is either just not
there or it's just juvenile andavoidable and not make it like a
(05:19):
chick lit drama.
You know what I mean?
Still fit the parameters ofromance.
I don't know where you say whereit's not like where they make
more, the kind of heroine thatyou like, you're saying that
you've, what is it that you needit to be more equal that you
need it to be like less of apower imbalance?
Yes.
What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Well, I mean, you know, like I said, for example,
the tropes that are very muchlike he's the 27 year old
billionaire, which like, whereare those guys?
They don't, that doesn't exist,but okay.
So we're in fantasy land wherethere are tons of eligible 27
year old unmarried, just waitingto be wonderful, you know, men
out there.
And none of them arecontemporaries.
(06:01):
None of them are theircontemporaries, these smart
businesswomen or the women who,God forbid, are even richer than
them.
They're never attracted to them.
It's always the young girl who,despite having smart and coming
out of a good school or havingskills or things like that, is
(06:22):
completely focused on her roleas a romantic partner, right?
So, I mean, I don't know.
I mean, like, Is it a romancewithout your either external
trope, the long lost girlfriend,the misunderstood conflict where
I hear a conversation andinstead of being like a normal
person and being like, hey, whatwere you talking about in that
(06:45):
conversation?
I instead sweep up and run awayand go to my mother's house and
those types of things outside ofthose.
I mean, I don't know.
What would you create as arealistic conflict?
Like I fell in love with him.
but we have religiousdifferences and can we work
through them?
He wants kids and I don't, youknow, those types of conflicts.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
I guess not.
I mean, I don't mean maybe thatnot the conflict has to fit, but
it can be over the top.
It can be fantasy, but it has tomake sense.
You know, it can be, it has tobe, I mean, adults make stupid
decisions, but they do them forreasons.
You know, they don't do itbecause they're, you know, 12
years old mentally oremotionally and they might be
jealous or angry and, you know,but it, You can see why, as an
(07:30):
adult, they would make thatmistake, even if it was a
terrible thing
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
to do.
I mean, but show me a romancemovie.
Show me a big box office movie,not some little indie film, but
show me a box office movie wherethe main thing is a romance
between two 50-year-olds whoare...
having an adult type ofrelationship.
They're not there as parents.
(07:54):
They're not, you know, this isnot the parent trap where you're
putting them back together.
This is not, oh, we're justplatonic and we're going to
kiss.
It's a Hallmark movie.
I mean, I don't see those.
I think it's more than justbooks.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Okay.
But an adult type relationshipsounds boring.
And I want these 50 year olds tobe having a romance novel
relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Right.
But I mean, I'm saying, do yousee those?
I was going to say, I thinkthat's a much bigger thing when
we're talking about romance andwe're talking about sex.
I mean, does Victoria's Secrethave 50 year old models?
No, they don't.
Do you see 50 year old women ormen doing anything in culture or
media that presents them asromantic, attractive, that
(08:34):
sexual, those types of things?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
That's why I was surprised when that show
Lucifer, I mean, it's over now,but I remember I was being
surprised that almost the wholecast of actresses were at least
in their forties, you know?
And so I thought that was prettycool that it wasn't a theme.
It wasn't like these old ladies,you know, it was, they were
having normal sexual, you know,storylines and it was just what
(09:00):
it was.
So I applaud that decisionproducers of Lucifer, but of a
huge trope.
Now a popular trope is the agegap.
And I, First of all, it'shilarious with what some people
think an age gap is.
It's like less than 10 years.
And they're like, ew.
I mean, I think it.
But then there's a ton of bookswhere the man is 40 to even 50,
(09:24):
somewhere in that range.
And the girl is 18, 19, 20.
Yes.
There's a ton of those.
And there are only a few.
I've seen a few in reverse, butthey're gross.
And it kind of bothers me aboutmyself that I find it...
On the one hand, they're grossbecause the stories that I read
were bad.
But there's also an element of,ew, because she's the older one
(09:48):
and he's like 18.
And I'm like, okay, that's tooyoung.
I would disagree with that.
SPEAKER_00 (09:53):
In real life, sure.
But what about the 40-year-oldwoman who just wants the
18-year-old boy toy, who can goand go and go and go?
He doesn't need to be there forher.
He doesn't need to have a realjob.
He's there to be pretty and begood in bed.
I think that fantasy can be outthere.
I mean, I think the thing is,like, if we're going to get mad
(10:18):
at people yucking on those oldbodice rippers because they're
like, who would want that?
I don't feel like I can judgethe person whose kink is, I'm 40
and he's 18.
You know, like, it's not mything.
No,
SPEAKER_01 (10:34):
I'm not judging.
I'm
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
not judging.
That is part of it.
I'm trying to picture a50-year-old heroine who we could
explain why she is single at 50without it being a
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
negative.
It's not that I need everybodyto be my age in a book, but they
kind of are intentionallyderogatory to older people,
older age groups in these books.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Yeah.
I think another thing that holdsback from having the thing that
makes them more likely to haveage gap with an older man or
even just an older man, youknow, male main character rather
than an older female maincharacter is a lot of romances,
a ton of romances end up withmarriage and a baby, right?
Children.
(11:22):
What do you have in 50 year oldwomen?
Probably not childbearing.
So if that is part of yourthing, that we are setting them
up for a happily ever after andshe has a baby in the plan or
it's a surprise baby or it's ahidden baby or any of those
things, your older femalecharacter cannot run down that
path.
And I feel like that is so muchof what is expected at the end.
(11:45):
Even me, when I'm readingthings, I was just reading one
and I really, really liked it.
And it was a book that It'scalled Mother Faker.
And the lady is like early 40sand divorced.
And he's actually early 40s.
He's her boss.
She's like a single mom.
And he ends up with her and, youknow, basically, like raise
(12:07):
helps to raise her because hedoesn't adopt them because
Divorced dad is in the picture.
So, but anyway, I kept thinking,oh, and now she's going to be
pregnant and they're going tohave babies together.
And like, no, they didn't.
They were happy with, you know,went off with the family that
she already had.
But I mean, it was kind of like,to me, it's like, it's so
expected in those romancenovels, whether it be old school
(12:27):
ones or new ones.
Now, I think that if we acceptthat people that writers can
write about plenty of thingsthat they had to use their
imagination for that are not atall like real life, then we
can't necessarily excuse awaytheir unwillingness to imagine
an older female sexual being.
(12:50):
Like if you can imagine a dragonshifter, which very clearly
doesn't exist in real life, youcould imagine a super hot 54
year old woman.
But I do think, you know, right.
But you also have to, I thinkyou have to find your market,
right?
Shit talking, old romanticmovies that have very similar
(13:14):
kind of what we might calloutdated movies.
views on romance orrelationships or male field
dynamics.
I mean, forget about any sort ofnon-hetero relationship in a
1940s romance movie that didn'texist.
But I don't hear people, I hearpeople who are more able to
recognize that they were a thingof their time.
(13:36):
You know, like I listen to a lotof old time radio and I listen
to a podcast that discusses oldtime radio and they'll talk
about, I mean, some of them havestuff that's just really bad.
You know, they have a characterthat is supposed to be Asian
being played by a white personwith a completely stereotypical
Asian accent or, or Hispaniccharacter who has such a, just
(14:00):
really harmful stereotypes.
And I, they can talk about thefact that this chunk of this is
really not good.
Now that we know better, we go,ooh, that's really cringe.
That part is very cringe, but wecan see these other portions and
recognize the strengths of this.
(14:22):
I'm not saying that we justwrite off everything as of its
time, you know, because Isometimes think that's a cop
out, you know, when people arelike, well, you know, that was
grandma's generation when theysaid that.
I was like, grandma has aniPhone.
Grandma figured out Facebook.
So grandma can figure out thatwe don't call black people that
particular word that grandmajust used anymore.
(14:43):
So I think that your point iswell taken that There is nuance
and you can find a lot ofstrengths in older things while
still acknowledging, eh, this isproblematic.
And then it just depends on howfar the individual reader gets.
I mean, we talked a little bitabout Shaina, right?
(15:04):
I had trouble getting past someof those things that are less
acceptable today.
I had trouble with that with thedependent woman.
I thought that she was a brat.
I did not understand why a guywould be interested in her other
than for her body.
So that was not particularlyinteresting.
So I was like, she's a pain inthe butt.
(15:24):
She doesn't really talkintelligently about anything.
She's like a petulant child.
Okay, I guess all he wants andall he ever talks about is how
gorgeous she is, right?
Well, that's kind of shallow.
And I couldn't get past that.
And I understand that you saythat as it goes on, they do
develop a true relationshipthat's built on more than just
lust.
But I...
just got so annoyed with her.
(15:46):
And then for me, because we viewconsent differently, not you and
I, but today's world viewsconsent differently, I had
trouble.
I think if there had been enoughother things I liked about the
book, I could have overlookedthat.
I could have been like, eh,that's not great, but I just, I
(16:09):
couldn't move past that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
First of all, I don't think you can police
people's sexual fantasies.
I mean, you can speculate andanalyze, but I don't think it is
fair or even healthy to startcriticizing people for a rape
fantasy or a non-con or a dovecon or any of that stuff because
who's the boss of that?
For other people, that's justnot good.
But there are, nevertheless,there are cases where it's
(16:33):
clearly new, and I don't thinkthis is one of
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
them.
I understand what you're sayingabout a deal.
It is very difficult for me toexamine it and take away the
modern lens.
Because if someone said to mydaughter, I'm going to take you
out to dinner.
I'm going to buy you anexpensive dinner.
So I guess the question is, atwhat point is it okay to say no
(17:00):
and remove consent?
And at what point would you say,well, I've said no.
this is too big of a deal andyou can't go back on it.
I mean, which leads me to thebigger part of the consent or
lack of consent.
Wasn't the deal breaker for me,but because I didn't have
anything else in there.
I mean, you just sat there anddescribed all the ways that
(17:21):
she's a shitty character.
She's a shitty person.
She's there to use him to getaway from her father.
And she is dishonest with himand makes bargains.
She has no intention offollowing through on.
So even if I could overlook theconsent, why would I want to
keep reading about this?
(17:42):
Like you're a gross person.
That is more of a, I guess whatI'm saying is we have different,
like people in general havedifferent things that they can
overlook.
Right.
And if you have enough thingsthat you like, I mean, we have
that friend, right?
That friend who you're like, oh,they have that flaw that is so I
(18:04):
generally really don't like, butthey have all these other good
things that I like.
So I'm willing to put up withthat.
I think the reason it exists ina fantasy is that even if it
doesn't seem like there'schoice, there is choice.
I don't think anybody fantasizesabout being in a situation where
(18:25):
they truly have no choice,right?
If you...
like the idea of ravishment,there's a point in you that
thinks that, yes, but if thiswas really, really bad, if I was
really being hurt or reallybeing scared or really this, I
have the choice to stop this.
I don't think that any, and Ithink that that's what makes it
(18:45):
a fantasy, right?
Because you've always got a safeword.
You just close the book.
That's your safe word.
I mean, that is the other thing.
If we're talking about Shana, Idid not get far enough into the,
book to truly see if Rurik was agood person.
I mean, I got far enough to seethat, like, he was great on the
plantation, right?
(19:05):
He had all these greatinnovative ideas and he seemed
to be a really good worker.
But, well, and I think that somany of the older ones that I
read, even when they are steamy,they are written from the male
pleasure perspective, right?
And so that's a difference thatI see in more contemporary ones.
(19:27):
You see ones where there's moregoing on and we acknowledge that
maybe we're going to considerthe woman's pleasure and maybe
tonight the man goes home alittle bit unsatisfied, but the
lady does not.
And I don't feel like I sawthose in the historical ones.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
But I'll tell you what, I am very surprised still.
I've read a lot of thecontemporary books and Some of
them I hate a lot, some of themI love, but I still cannot
believe how for all the talkabout equality and progress and
blah, blah, blah, that how theseheroes or male characters now
treat the women that are in thebooks because it's very, very
(20:09):
misogynist, patriarchal.
It's even many times worse thanit was in the vintage
historicals.
I mean, they're horrible.
and the women don't at least inthe vintage books they fought
back initially they might havecaved in but they were like you
at first and they were like i'mgonna fight this and you
(20:29):
overpowered her but now they'rejust they just take it and i
just like what are you doingyou're talking about this
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
and i find in the contemporaries that that is
equally annoying like i said didi read All the Fifty Shades and
the ones that were in that, theCrossfire and all those, I did
because the steam is good.
But the fact that the guys,yeah, they were jerks.
I mean, I did not find thatappealing.
(21:00):
When I was young...
I believed, I watched a ton ofsoap operas.
My mother loved soap operas.
I watched the daytime ones.
I watched the nighttime ones.
And I very much feel like thosegave the message that with the
love of a good woman, this mancan be changed, right?
(21:24):
And that's not real life.
That's why women get themselvesinto stupid, toxic
relationships.
So I don't like it in thosecontemporary ones where I was
like, he's an asshole.
I know that he's rich and superhot, but surely you can find
somebody.
Maybe they don't have a billiondollars.
Maybe they're pulling in like$100,000 and they're hot, but
(21:47):
they're also going to be nice toyou.
So I find that annoying, even inthe contemporary.
books, the poor treatment, theasshole jerk imbalance of power.
Maybe that's their kink.
Maybe they like that.
Maybe they like being demeaned.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Actually, there's interesting parallels between
that.
And we want to talk about thetropes that people denigrate in
old school, but eat up in thenewer genres.
But I don't think that's goodfor women.
I don't think it's good forolder women.
I mean, you can't do thatwithout hurting women and
hurting romance.
You have to at least, you don'thave to like what other people
(22:27):
like, but you have to be able tocriticize without writing off a
whole generation of
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
women.
I think it's also assuming that,I mean, you and I have had this
whole discussion, right?
I am much more a reader of,though you and I are peers,
right?
We're about the same age.
I am more a fan of thecontemporary and you were more a
fan of the ones that werewritten back then.
To assume that only someone ofyour age enjoys those, that
(22:59):
there's not some 18 or12-year-old out there who's
today's 12-year-old who'sreading those books and loving
them, I mean, I think it's kindof silly.
So yeah, I mean, I think that weneed to acknowledge that there's
going to be people of all agesto whom those books
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
are
SPEAKER_00 (23:15):
written.
What about the argument that theartistic freedom was never
there?
It's just been shifted, right?
Because before the days of likeself-publishing, who were the
arbiters about whether anythingwas going to get out there?
Publishing houses, right?
If they decided they didn't likeyour view, nobody was reading
your book.
Now, with self-publishing...
(23:38):
I don't think that there's anymore freedom.
I don't think there was morefreedom before.
I guess what I'm saying is nowit's just a different person
telling you, I don't like yourviews.
I don't want these views outthere.
It's Joe commenter, not RandomHouse.
But I still think that wasthere.
I think there were people whodecided that view is not
(23:59):
something that we think shouldbe put out there.
And therefore, we're notpublishing your book.
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
I'm going to say the market is there for a lot of
this romance stuff.
There are just people saying itshouldn't be out there and
available, but there is amarket.
They're just, you know, it's notthat nobody wants to read these
things.
Right.
So how are people saying youcan't
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
read these things?
You should not, you should not.
So as an author, if you'rewriting something that someone
tells you, you shouldn't write,but you believe there's a market
out there, how do you reach thatmarket?
How do you, get those otherpeople who are going to say to
the same reviewer i don't agreewith you you don't get to tell
me what i like like how do youfind those people because if
(24:39):
they're there they're thereright so
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
you put it out there and they sell or they don't sell
but then you get somebody makesa video that goes viral that
criticizes it and theneverybody's hating on you and
then you know you have to takeyour books down or be you know
what you know constantly houndedon social media for, or somebody
wants you to take your booksdown or Amazon wants to take it
down because now everybody inthe universe is saying you're a
(25:04):
whatever.
Oh, so.
All right.
So I guess I'm never going toget you to read a, um, my
favorite shifter, my polyamorousparanormal dragon shifter.
Like
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
I'm hoping we're like, I'm not much of a fan of
fantasy, but I will give thatone a try.
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
I didn't think I would be.
I'll tell you what.
When I started reading romanceagain, I was like, I am going to
stick with my historicalsbecause all of this, forget
today, the modern stuff, kidstoday, you know, all that.
But then, then I found dragonshifters and my perspective
changed a little bit, especiallythe ones where, and then I'm
like, oh, it's only going to betwo people.
I can't imagine who we want toread about, you know, like more
(25:42):
than two people gross.
And then, and then I found AmyPenza's like dragon shifter, her
universe is these dragons and,There's two guys, two dragon
shifters that are lovers forcenturies until they find, they
mate in threes, but they're notcomplete until they find their
third, who is a woman.
Okay.
And then they have this whole,and I'm like, who would have
(26:05):
ever thought?
You might think that doesn'thave a sign of healing, but it
actually can be.
I will give that a try.
UNKNOWN (26:14):
Okay.
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