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April 17, 2025 62 mins

In this episode of A Legacy of Purpose: Conversations with Dina H. Sherif, we sit down with Andrea Kates—a globally respected strategist, bestselling author of From Stuck to Scale, and current Entrepreneur-in-Residence at the MIT Kuo Sharper Center (formerly the MIT Legatum Center). Andrea’s work spans tech, healthcare, climate, and finance, and her frameworks have helped thousands of entrepreneurs unlock their next chapter.

Together, we explore how entrepreneurs can shift from uncertainty to momentum, why trust is the true currency of innovation, and why she believes 2025 will be the “year of the leapfrog.” We also dive deep into Andrea’s storytelling approach to business, and how growth markets like Bogota, Nairobi, and Hanoi are leading the future of problem-solving.

From insights on corporate transformation to the power of Chōkensei—Japan’s model of society-inspired innovation—this episode offers a deeply practical and human take on scaling what matters.

Host: Dina Sherif
Produced by Donovan Beck

For Media Inquiries:
Donovan Beck

Communications and Storytelling Coordinator

Legatum Center for Development and Entrepreneurship

Sloan School of Management
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
292 Main St, E38, 5th Floor, Cambridge, MA 02142
don_beck@mit.edu

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Andrea,

Dina Sherif (00:09):
welcome back to a legacy of purpose. I'm thrilled
to sit down today with AndreaCates, author, entrepreneur,
global innovation strategist,thought leader, and she spent
her entire career unlocking thepotential of businesses and
visionaries across manyindustries. So from her time as

(00:29):
a startup CEO in San Franciscoto her work with entrepreneurs,
not just in the United Statesbut across global growth
markets, Andrea has dedicatedherself to helping companies
move from stuck to scale, whichalso happens to be the title of
her book, which we'll talk aboutmore today. I wanted to just say
a little bit about Andrea. So Imet Andrea back in 2014 and she

(00:55):
slotted me into I was doing afellowship, Eisenhower
Fellowship. She slotted me intoher schedule for 30 minutes. She
said, I only have 30 minutes.
You're gonna need to be quick intypical Silicon Valley style.
But that 30 minutes ended upturning into about three hours
and a great friendship that hasspanned many years till today.
And so I'm excited to also saythat Andrea is accepted to be an

(01:19):
entrepreneur in residence hereat the Legatum center for
development entrepreneurship,where she has expressed her
incredible interest anddedication to global growth
markets. So welcome Andrea tothis podcast. We're happy to
have you with us. Great

Unknown (01:36):
to be here, and I never run out of things to talk about
with you. Dina, I

Dina Sherif (01:41):
know it's great, so you've inspired me a lot over
the over the years, and I'mhoping that everyone who's
listening to this podcast willbe equally as inspired. So we
obviously do want to get to thebook today at some point, but I
really want people to get toknow you a little bit better as
well. And you are a storytellingchampion, and you often talk

(02:04):
about the importance of a threebeat story. So let's start on
beat one. Beginning. Your workhas spanned so many sectors,
across finance, healthcare,you're now heavily into AI. You
were a startup CEO in SanFrancisco. So help us understand
a little bit the beginning ofyour journey and how you got

(02:28):
into this space ofentrepreneurship and innovation,
and how did your journey leadyou up to this book, from stuck
to scale.

Unknown (02:36):
I love three beat stories, as you know, so yeah,
I'm gonna do the first beat,because people can only really
understand information and learnabout what's really important to
extract from three beats four atthe most. So the first beat of
my story was reallyunderstanding the opportunities
within healthcare when I workedlong time ago at the Texas

(03:00):
Medical Center a couple yearsago, couple years ago, first
beat was Texas Medical Center.
And then what was happening atthe time was a lot of
revolutions in business. So oneof them was thought leadership,
like the TED conference washappening and, you know, sort of
a way of people thinking ofideas as some sort of currency.
At the same time, I was reallylucky to work on health care,

(03:20):
which was going through a lot ofradical change. There were
changes in the payment system inthe United States that also led
me to opportunities in pharma,because it turned out that
pharma was going through a lotof business model change. So
this whole first beat of thestory was understanding the
commonalities betweenrevolutions that happened, that

(03:42):
hit us by surprise in oneindustry like healthcare, and
then suddenly around me was alsoenergy. So I had a chance to
work with World Dutch Shell andthen Enron at understanding the
idea of different businessmodels and what happens when
decentralized leadership andstructures occur. So I got into
Telecom, yeah, so it was reallyinteresting. Like there was

(04:03):
Williams that became, will tellthat became WorldCom, that
became MCI. Then it was likeenergy that became deregulated.
And you start saying, oh,deregulation common theme. And
that also then led me into fromtelecom to automotive, where I
worked with General Motors andFord. So I started understanding

(04:23):
something that hadn't beentaught in business school,
because I do have an MBA, whichis that the truth is, and this
was in my first book, find yournext, that the truth is that the
ability for us to find what'snext is really hard, really
hard, and it also doesn't justcome from today's customers. So
that's the first beat of thestory. Do you want the second

(04:45):
beat? Or should we wait?

Dina Sherif (04:50):
I want to. I mean, I'd love to go into the second
beat, but I want to go a leveldeeper, right? Because
oftentimes people are obsessedwith. Entrepreneurs and the
sexiness of what comes withbeing a very successful
entrepreneur, you're a littledifferent, because I feel like
you're not obsessed with theentrepreneur, you're obsessed

(05:10):
with the belly of theorganizations that the
entrepreneur represents. Andthat's very different. What What
was it that got you into that,like, what was that moment where
you said, You know what? Whatmatters to me is what happens
within a company and what, whata company can do if they just

(05:35):
kind of shift their mindset justa little bit?

Unknown (05:38):
So it's, it's so interesting to think deeply. I
really haven't reflected onthis. So I'm saying this for the
first time, when I think aboutit, every company has structural
similarities to the individualsin that company, right? I mean,
it's about people servingpeople, and so first of all,

(05:59):
some people are not able to seechange as it's happening. They
become like turtles, and theyhide. They kind of sort of see E
commerce happening, and thenit's like, maybe that will go
away. You know, it didn't? Theysort of see AI happening. Maybe
that will go away. No. Sothere's a kind of DNA in an
individual to either see it ordon't see it. Okay. The second

(06:22):
thing that I'm thinking of basedon your question is you can
either catch up or give up orgive up, give up. And there is a
mindset. I don't know ifcompanies can have mindsets, but
whether it's an entrepreneur ora large company, because I've
worked with tons of them, youknow, you have that choice, like
to either catch up or

Dina Sherif (06:42):
give up. I mean, companies do have a mindset,
right? Because, like you said,companies represent individuals,
and individuals represent a wayof thinking. And it's
interesting that you've alwaysbeen curious about that in
particular. So with that, tellus about your second

Unknown (06:58):
beat. Okay, so second beat was, after seeing this, I
started thinking of this, andthis was what led to my first
book, find your next. I startedseeing it. It was un humble of
me, but I thought it's kind oflike the Human Genome Project,
yeah, you know, like, like, youhave these patterns. And
deregulation in energy is verysimilar to deregulation in

(07:21):
telecom if you understand themechanism of change, kind of
from first principles, you canaccelerate. You can leapfrog.
Yeah, and I was lucky enough towork with a company called
Embrace in India that was ahealthcare company, and at the
time it was like SMS and flipphones that were ways of
communicating, and that wasfine, you didn't need advanced

(07:42):
technologies to do advanced,innovative things. So I started
realizing that this, this DNAand spark of change, was looking
at patterns in adjacent markets,not being limited to the
technology that was, you know,supposedly a limitation. And
then, as I said a minute ago,like a mindset shift that we're

(08:04):
going to catch up. We don't knowhow, but it's not necessarily
only the entrepreneurs thatclaim that. I mean, I've seen so
many inspiring leaders in largecompanies that are the ones who
are the catalyst for change.
They're just like, we're goingto do this. We're going to
figure it out. And those, youknow, it can be a 200 year old
company like shimisu in Japan.
It can be a two week old startupthat has the same DNA. But to

(08:29):
me, that's why I'm not in lovewith entrepreneurship, per se.
Yeah, that's

Dina Sherif (08:33):
what I think it's wonderful, because you look at
the layers and the layers andthe layers that make companies
tick, right? So what is yourbeat three? Or is that still
coming now?

Unknown (08:44):
So beat beat three. So, so there was a little beat two
in the middle where I wasteaching in business school. So
I taught at Stanford, I taughtat Berkeley, and I taught at
Princeton, the lean startupmethodology. And then I also
started my own methodology inCopenhagen, at a place called
the Copenhagen Business School.
And at that moment, I startedrealizing that that the whole

(09:05):
way that we teach business isout of whack. You know, it's not
like spreadsheets are going topredict growth. And so I started
to just, I decided to apply thislean startup methodology to
corporations when I was runningthe software company. So the
second beat of the story islooking at these 13,000 teams at

(09:25):
a time that would come throughthe program, and we would say,
Well, you know, certainpercentage of them were going to
fail, and that was just kind oflike the way it was. And that
was our, you know, kind ofmantra. And I thought, one day,
wait a minute, like, a lot ofthese ideas are really
important, and they don't haveto fail, they don't have to

(09:46):
fail. They could serve millions,if not billions, of people. So
why is it that we're justsaying? Well, you know, it's a
it's a numbers game. So Istarted studying the outliers,
right? Which was, I. Typical ofme getting the curiosity, the
curiosity, and also, I don'tnecessarily take conventional
wisdom as the final word, yeah.

(10:10):
So my observation was, you know,we've got to figure out a way to
do something better thantelling, you know, innovation
initiative within a largecompany, you know, you might
fail. Or we used to say failfast or learn fast, no. How
about fixing it? How aboutfiguring out? Instead of saying
you need to pivot, which is kindof like a punishment, people who

(10:32):
are subject matter experts don'tknow how to pivot. They know
what they know. They knowpolymer chemistry. They don't
know how to pivot from that. Andso I decided to unlock the
secrets to how to pivot, whereto pivot, what we're optimizing
for, so that people with thisthe juice to really make some

(10:54):
change happen, have thewherewithal to not just go in
one place and give up or fail,but to actually maneuver out of
that? Yeah,

Dina Sherif (11:02):
I, you know, I've read both your books now, you
know, I spent the past four daysreading this one big, wonderful,
like, wonderful book. And Ithink, I think for me, if I'm
going to summarize, what you dois that you use your methodology
to allow to allow new learningto emerge. And in a way, that's
like what we teach our fellowsaround adaptive leadership. We

(11:26):
don't know the answer toeverything, and that's when we
really need to see newleadership arise. But leadership
also requires new learning. AndI think, I think at the core of
what you are bringing throughyour books is, how do we allow
teams to engage in new learningso that they can evolve? And I

(11:48):
think that's really, reallybeautiful. So, and we're going
to delve deeper in the book, butmy next question is, you know, I
think you and I are bothentrepreneurs, and if you've
been an entrepreneur, you'vedefinitely not just engage in
successes, but you've had yourfair share of failures and
learnings. If you're to thinkback on your life, what is the

(12:12):
moment where you felt really,really stuck, and how did you
navigate your way out of beingstuck?

Unknown (12:20):
Where this is, this is deep.

Dina Sherif (12:23):
This is what this is, go deep here. This is

Unknown (12:26):
deep. Yeah, there's nothing scripted about this. I
would say that stuck for me is aconflict between what I find
unacceptable and my courage. Todo something about it. And when

(12:46):
I see things unacceptable, like,like, business teams that fail,
there's a lot of kind of chasingmy own tail like a dog trying to
find a place. Like, like, I knowit's wrong. I'm agitated about
it, but I know that it will takecourage for me to stand on
global stages, for me to take onthe technology risks, for me to
go, you know, to places I'dnever even heard of. I usually

(13:09):
have to, like, look on a map andsay, Where is this place?
Exactly? I have a conflictpersonally between the curiosity
and the sense of things that arecompletely unacceptable, and my
personal courage to take action.

Dina Sherif (13:26):
So your stuck moment is coming over, your fear
of taking action. So how did youovercome that?

Unknown (13:36):
It's interesting.
There's a moment that Irealized, if not me, who I am,
not usually the largest personin a room, as a matter of fact,
last week with the fellows, youknow, people tower over me
physically sometimes, um, Inever considered myself to be
like the person to write tobooks and, you know, probably

(14:00):
more ahead, but I realized oneday, and certainly doing
keynotes on major stages, youknow, like the TED made it's
hard. I

Dina Sherif (14:12):
have my own fears of, you know, standing on stage,

Unknown (14:16):
it's hard, and you have to be really great, you know,
like, like, you have to reallybring it. And so I think one day
I just thought, well, you know,I looked around and I thought,
someone needs to do somethingabout this. It's just, you know,
when I when I think the thoughtunacceptable, that's my
inspiration to say, well,whatever it takes, I'm going to

(14:39):
figure out how to write. I'mgoing to figure out how to tell
stories. Going to figure out thespreadsheets. I'm going to
figure out the technology. I'mgoing to figure out the courage
to speak my piece. I'm going tobasically, a lot of times, have
the courage to just beunderestimated. I.

Dina Sherif (15:00):
I think that's what many women feel.

Unknown (15:04):
So let's just go a little layer deeper. We're gonna
go there. We're gonna go alittle layer deeper here,
because this is

Dina Sherif (15:10):
gonna be important for many people listening to
this podcast. Yeah, you knowwhat? How did you really, truly
overcome that fear. Andspecifically, I'm asking because
a lot of women, many of whom youand I know, they're always
hesitant to put themselves outthere, men too, but women in

(15:34):
particular. So you know youyou're saying that what drives
you is to stand up for what isunacceptable. It's like, for
example, just telling teams thatthey're gonna fail, that's
unacceptable. There's a wayaround that, but that you are
stuck at this point of, how do Iput myself out there and be that
voice that's gonna be bold? Sowhat was it that pushed you

(15:58):
through that fear? What did youdo?

Unknown (16:01):
The first thing I did was I was very bad at it in the
beginning, honestly. I mean,when I think back, I remember
Seth Godin, who's a very wellknown marketing guru, and I
actually think he, I don't evenknow if it's one person, he
might be an avatar, because he'sso prolific in his writing. He's
so insightful. I've actuallytaken his online marketing

(16:23):
seminar. He's really great. Hewrote that. He blurbed my first
book, which was wonderful. But Iremember being on stage with him
when my first book came out, andI thought, this guy charges
$100,000 for an hour. Like, Howgood could he be? You know,
like, come on. And then Irealized he was really good,
really good. He was really good.
And although I thought that Iwas, you know, like, good at it,

(16:45):
I realized that I was missingpreparation. I didn't even
understand I was missing. Soit's that thing you said
earlier, like I didn't even knowwhat I didn't know. The nice
thing was, I had the courage tobe kind of bad and do it anyway.
Not easy to go on stage afterSeth Godin, by the way. But then
I took note, and I said, I amnow going to do the work to be

(17:10):
more like that. And I started onthe journey. And you know, it
wasn't easy. It's kind oflearning like you were saying,
and

Dina Sherif (17:20):
preparation matters so much preparation, and I've
seen you because I know thatbefore you speak, you put so
much effort into preparing,preparing, preparing, and that
allowed you to kind of movebeyond that fear.

Unknown (17:33):
Okay, interestingly, my first agent for my first book,
this is like a little aside, butmy first agent for my first
book, kind of, since I won'ttell you who it is, but anyway,
they sort of left me on thealtar in the middle of my book
tour, because they got the LadyGaga perfume.

Dina Sherif (17:50):
Oh yeah. So, you know, you know, how do you be
with Lady

Unknown (17:54):
Gaga? I thought that I was up there too, but, you know,
definitely wasn't. But what wasinteresting was they told me a
story about her. They said thatshe does like a set. And then,
like, in her early days, a, shewrites handwritten thank you,
notes. B, she shows up and doesa show. And then, like, does the
after hours show the amount ofpreparation that is done behind
the scenes by people who looklike they're just naturally

(18:17):
talented is amazing. And so Ijust decided about 10 years ago
to work my tail off and to bereally prepared. Everybody says,
Oh, you're so spontaneous onstage for every hour, it takes
me 55 zero to be, quote,spontaneous,

Dina Sherif (18:36):
right? Got it all right. So this is question for
Donovan, because, you know he'sour in house storyteller, and
you know we know that you havetaken on also a role of
storyteller. And you often talkabout the importance of
storytelling, specificallywithin business, and I think a

(18:59):
crucial part of being able toarticulate your story is really
understanding the why behindwhat you're doing. So where does
your love for storytelling comefrom? I'm

Unknown (19:14):
gonna start to cry.
It's okay. People have cried onthis

Dina Sherif (19:17):
podcast before. So

Unknown (19:18):
my father, whose name was Phil, he died. Was a
psychiatrist, and wait for it,when he retired, he became a
stand up comic. I think he toldme this before. So what's
interesting was, I said, youknow, Dad, where'd you get the
material from? Like, how didthis happen? He said, Well, you

(19:39):
know, you have to be able totake the essence of a story and
work on its timing and think ofthe audience and break it down
into these beats. So comedy hasbeats to it, and also you have
to read the room, and so itfeels like you're repeating the
same you know, why did thechicken cross the road to get to
the other side? You tell itwith. Nuance, depending on how

(20:01):
you read the room. And Ihonestly, the other day, when I
was in, where was I, Sao Paulo,with Sao Paulo, yeah. And I'm
like, we were just in Sao Paulo,just in Sao Paulo, if we may be
that peep, that person. But youknow, I remember walking on
stage and thinking, okay, readthe room. These are people who
don't have English as a firstlanguage, so even the ability to

(20:21):
story tell is it's arelationship. And that reminds
me of a line I think it's likeTony Bennett, they're like, how
long did it take you to learnhow to sing? And I'm sure you
know the story. And he says, youknow, well, it took me three
years to learn how to sing and10 years to learn how to make an
entrance. So for me,storytelling is like that. It

(20:44):
has taken me a long time. Myfirst book wasn't as good as
storytelling as this book andthis book I literally started
off with like studyingstorytelling. I went to the moth
I read a bunch of books onstorytelling. I studied
storytelling because if youdon't connect with the reader,
then what's the spreadsheet for

Dina Sherif (21:07):
and connect with your entrepreneurs too.
Entrepreneurs

Unknown (21:11):
are people whose hearts are very come forward, right?
They are invested in not togeneralize, but entrepreneurs
have a passion. Like last nightwe went to kind of, oh, we'd
hope they'd have a passion,yeah? And they have to have a
slight amount of insanity, let'sbe honest, right? It's like, if

(21:31):
you can't think of anything elseto do, you know, please, please
think of anything rather than bean entrepreneur, yeah? And if
you can, okay, then we'll letyou be an entrepreneur. But I
think that story, you know, it'snot like, you know, I hate
elevator pitches. It's not likeone story that you tell to
everybody. It's being able toconnect with people, whether

(21:56):
it's your customers, hearingtheir stories, understanding the
meaning behind the words, whichis very different from the
words. And the other day, wewere with a client, as you know,
you know, big company, and theywere saying, you know, when,
when customers and sales peopletalk, that's very different from
when entrepreneurs and customerstalk. You have to listen for the

(22:19):
unmet need. And all of those areways that people reveal
themselves through their words,and that, to me, is the essence
of story, yeah, and connectionand connection, yeah,

Dina Sherif (22:31):
I love it. So let's get into your book.

Unknown (22:37):
I can't believe you read it already. It's a big
book. Well, I had

Dina Sherif (22:40):
to do that. I had to prep for the and, you know,
you know, you know, we love youaround here. So when we got the
book, we read it. So this, this,this book here, from stuck to
scale, right? I hope that manypeople go out and buy it. It's
an it's an important book toread, but you introduce in this
book a very structured frameworkfor moving past roadblocks, or

(23:04):
the idea of being stuck to beingable to move to a new level of
growth. So in it, you describethese five key stages where
entrepreneurs get stuck. Walk methrough these stages. Why did
you feel that this issue neededto be well, we know a little bit
of why you need felt this issueneeded to be addressed now,

(23:26):
because of your background,right? But why did you do this
now, in this moment that we'reliving that is so fast paced,
where things are evolving everyminute, like we can't keep up
with what's happening with AI.
Every day we get a new Wow, wedidn't see that one coming,
right? So walk us through thesestages and tell us a little bit

(23:48):
about why it's relevant now,

Unknown (23:53):
well, I'll start with why it's relevant, and then I'll
tell you the stages. Okay, thereis a world that we will create
that is completely differentfrom the revolutions of the
past, and we can feel it, and weare lucky to be here, but it's
pretty risky if we don't get itright, and it's pretty scary if

(24:14):
we don't get people who findthings unacceptable to step
forward and speak out, Takeaction and make movements happen
around these things. And I thinkcompanies basically are
movements being able to get alot of people to coalesce around
change, of

Dina Sherif (24:28):
course, and especially if it's like an
innovation driven enterprisethat is really trying to
transform a system 100% and

Unknown (24:36):
as you know, in growth economies, it's not just that.
I'm quoting you Dina, but it'snot just unicorns. It's not just
let's just read the room andthey're all VCs, and they're all
going to have an investmentmindset. There are many mindsets
that need to be served by this.
So first of all, the why is weare on the cusp of this
revolution where the people whohave had all the answers, as I

(24:56):
call it, conventional wisdom,have. No answers. So good luck
with that world. Right? I wasjust judging, I actually
realized that, well, they'restarting to right. And I was
judging a sort of pitchcompetition with a group that
was global, and I ended uppicking a 15 year old. I didn't
even know how old they were.

(25:18):
What anything about them? Ipicked the concept as the
winner. You know, my choicebecause it was a fabulous idea
and it was a 15 year old. Soit's a world where anyone has
access to the same tools. It'svery transparent. So the why is
now more than ever, and I'm verypro technology. As you know, we
need to figure out ways toharness this technology and turn

(25:40):
it into into ways to servepeople, period. Okay? Now, the
way that I figured out wherepeople were stuck was like, I
have this line, everything isobvious in retrospect. Yes,

Dina Sherif (25:53):
right? Always for pretty much everything in life,

Unknown (25:57):
right? So it's like looking back like the sad, sad
truth. It's the sad truth, andit's not like what would I tell
my 20 year old self? But youknow, when I looked at the data?
Because, as you know, I love tolook at data, so I looked at the
data and the patterns of howthese different people had
failed. You know, the six, the13,000 teams at a time, which

(26:18):
was like 60,000 people at atime, and the companies I have
worked with, many of which werein automotive and, you know,
FinTech and all over the world,I started to sort of realize
that there were buckets ofsimilarities, and I didn't know
what to call them at first. Itwas four categories. But then I
realized that patterns,patterns, first pattern is the

(26:42):
egg. Sort people in large, twocategories sometimes. And now I
have people hold up like theirleft hand. Hold up your left
hand if where you feel kind ofstuck is you don't know what to
do. You're just, like,overwhelmed, or you don't

(27:02):
understand it, or you haven'tlearned enough, or you just
don't know what to do, or you'reparalyzed, or you have this huge
portfolio of opportunities andyou really don't know where to
start. So that's one. The secondis a broad category, which is, I
know what to do, honestly, Iknow what to do. I cannot get
people to do it. Yeah. Sothere's like, a left hand, right
hand. And actually, this camefrom my dad too, because when he

(27:25):
was a training in medicine, youknow, people would come in and
they would do, like, triage, youknow, like, I feel sick, and
he'd say, oh, like, let's fixthe broken arm. Yeah, right.
It's like, wait a minute, youforgot to ask. Like, what hurts?
Right? Oh, it's a headache.
Okay, then forget fixing abroken arm. So it's basic
triage, all right? But then itgot a more refined where I

(27:47):
realized that it's sort of thefirst, you know, when you hold
up your left hand, you don'tknow what to do. There's
envisioning it, right? Like,like, you literally can't even
you have something in your mind,but you can't put it down on
paper. It's kind of like anitchy feeling, like we should
probably do something about AI,right? So it's like this in but
you can't even get it down onpaper. Yeah, you know, but you

(28:10):
can't put your finger on it.
That's right? So you envision,and you know, we have very
simple, do it yourself, toolsfor this, right? Envision,
expand. That's when a lot oftimes, an expert in something
can't see outside of their ownindustry, can't see an
adjacency, can't see a parallel,can't see something that applies

(28:32):
technology or business model ina new way. So envision expand,
build, and as you know, from thelean startup where I, you know,
ran the software company foryears. There's a real
methodology to using scientificprinciples to build. So
envision, expand, build great. Alot of the world ends there. And

(28:53):
so we have a hackathon. And I'mnot being sarcastic. See it all
the time, so you can build it,and then it's like, what I call
science fair project, like, it'sreally good, but so many of
those ideas died on the vine.
Literally, no supportinternally, no external
ecosystem, no way of scaling.
Okay, so to really scale, youhave to have engage and

(29:18):
activate. Yes, and I'm going tosay something that I've never
said before.

Dina Sherif (29:22):
I just want to say these are my two favorite
stages. Oh, thank

Unknown (29:25):
you. Well, it turns out 80% 80% of the projects that we
had fail were because of engageand activate failures. Now I
will say that, as a woman, Iused to feel that spreadsheets
were more important thanstories, because you get a lot
of credibility by being able todo the numbers, do the math,

(29:46):
right? So that's where you getthe credibility. It took until
this stage in my career to feelconfident enough to realize that
it's the Engage and activatewhere people fall short. Yeah.
And so. Engaging globalaudiences. It's in It's
engaging. It's not just like,having relationships. It's
literally drawing ecosystemsdifferently, drawing ecosystems

(30:10):
for profit, yeah, drawingecosystems for platform. That's
technology enablement, and thendrawing ecosystems for purpose,
which is brave area where youhave to just, like, really step
out there and say, just like wesaid earlier, I'm going to lead
this, even though I don't knowone thing about this solution,
it's going to be a largechallenge that I'm going to

(30:32):
lead, and I'm going to corralothers to be part of this. It's
that important. And thenactivate is, you know, like
getting to the Engage part anddrawing it and getting the
ecosystem built, that stilldoesn't mean that you've gotten
people's hearts into it. And somany times, you know, people nod

(30:52):
their heads and they don't doanything, yep. So activate is
literally the most importantthing. How do you get someone to
make your priority theirpriority. Yep, so it's,
envision, expand, build,

Dina Sherif (31:07):
engage, activate. I love it, like I said last two.
My two favorite you knowProfessor Hugh o'derdy, who is a
professor of leadership atHarvard and works very closely
with us on our the leadershipwork we do with our foundry
fellows, he often says that, youknow, if you really want to
create change and if you reallywant to see new learning, you

(31:28):
have to find a way to bringpeople along with you, and the
only way to do that is toconnect. And connection requires
more from the heart, less fromthe mind. Well,

Unknown (31:40):
you have to be very secure to say that, because
business is taught in a veryrational way. Yeah, no,

Dina Sherif (31:48):
we don't teach how to connect with people at
business school. That's notwhat's taught. We do here at the
center, for sure, and that'swhat I think you know is a part
of what makes us special. But ifyou really want to create
change, and you're not bringingpeople along with you. Change is
not going to happen.

Unknown (32:04):
It's interesting because I don't know how one
would teach it. I know how weteach it here at the center now,
but if one it's sort of likeSpock versus Well, I don't know,
let me get that one gone. Butthere's,

Dina Sherif (32:22):
you love Spock. We know you love Okay, so, you
know, there's sort of this

Unknown (32:27):
business is Spock, yeah, you know. And it's
actually somewhat Kirk as well.
You know, there's a bit of,there's a there's a bit of
frustration for rational folkslike all of us are when logic is
sitting right in front of you,like, here's AI. Are we going to
do it? You know, catch up orgive up, and people literally

(32:47):
give up. Or there's a leaderthat has the perfect answer, but
literally can't get other peopleto see it the way they see it,
which happens a lot withexpertise. You know, expertise
is understood by the the expert,but it's very hard for them to
communicate and get other peopleto play the roles that they need
to play, like an orchestraconductor, you know, so that

(33:10):
everybody comes on board. I havea lot of, as, you know, in the
book, a lot of, a lot of fixesfor it. There's actually fixes
for it,

Dina Sherif (33:19):
yeah, that's why people need to get the book. So,
you know, when you wrote yourfirst book, find your next you
know, that was one endeavor, butyou have talked about how
writing this book, and I wasaround when you were writing
this book, was a completelydifferent kind of endeavor. And

(33:40):
you know now that I've read thisbook, this book could be spun
out into several books, but whatwas, and I also know that you
spent months and you this bookwas really done in the span of a
year, and you were verydisciplined, and you were so
determined to get this book outand to get it out as quickly as
possible. But what was sodifferent about this project and

(34:02):
writing this book from when youwrote, find your next what was?
What's different inside Andrea,

Unknown (34:10):
I will use a three letter word like my three beat
story, ego. Oh, ego. In thefirst book, my ego was in a
place where I wanted to beacknowledged for my expertise.
That's very important at acertain stage in one's career,

(34:32):
especially a woman in technologyrunning a company in Silicon
Valley. I mean, it's, it's, it'simportant. This book is about
service. I honestly, un humblyonce again, but my ego is not in
it. Now. I honestly know thatthese are the secrets that can
unlock all of this frustrationthat is inside of 160 year old

(34:57):
companies, corporate leaders,global. Global leaders,
government leaders,entrepreneurs, accelerators that
are all beating their headsagainst the wall when they get a
science fair project that's sosmart and it's not turning into
a scalable business. So I knowthese are the secrets, and I'm
at this stage in my career wheremy ego is like locked in a

(35:18):
closet. It's, it's, it's notabout that you want to serve.
It's all about serving.

Dina Sherif (35:23):
I get that, and I've seen it because, you know,
the Andrea I met back in 2014 isnot the Andrea I know now in
2025 because I've heard you overand over again the past month
say, you know, Dina, I'm I'm inlet's create change. I want to
serve. How can you use me?
Right? And that's that's justsuch a beautiful thing. And I

(35:45):
wish more people were like that,where in a particular stage of
your life, you start thinkingabout just serving and helping
others. And that's a wonderfulthing, and I think it gives me a
beautiful transition to ask youthe next question, which is, and
this, and this also happens atMIT too, right? Many people

(36:08):
still believe that innovationhappens only in Silicon Valley
or in this wonderful ecosystemin Kendall Square that we have,
or a little bit in Austin,Texas. But nobody thinks, oh,
innovation, Nigeria orinnovation, Brazil or
innovation, my country, Egypt.

(36:31):
Emerging markets, or what wecall growth markets, are often
affiliated with poverty,destitution problems, big
problems that we need to fixfrom here in the West. But this
is a very misguided narrative,because you cannot sum one

(36:52):
country into one narrative ofpoverty and destitution. And
there, there are many differentnarratives that come out of the
markets like the one I comefrom, and I think it's always
powerful when people like you,who have spent their biggest
chunk of their life in SiliconValley, working from Silicon

(37:12):
Valley, very intentionally shifttheir Focus to growth markets,
and you've deliberately set outto engage in service to these
markets. What was the turningpoint for you when you decided

(37:32):
to shift your attention fromthese very kind of traditional
innovation hubs to the marketsthat we serve here in the
center.

Unknown (37:42):
Well, it was intentional and it was
accidental. And I'll give youtwo beats. First beat, there's a
scene that I will never forget.
When I was in India working withthis company that you know, had
low birth weight babies beingsaved by a very inexpensive,
frugal innovation. And, youknow, I was there as an advisor

(38:06):
to this company. I was a bitarm's length, but I found myself
sitting on a floor which wasactually kind of a dirt cave
where a woman had beenostracized from her community in
India because she had a childwho had died from low birth
weight, and, you know, wasostracized, was also grieving.

(38:28):
And I could relate to it on somany levels, including a
personal level. And I realizedthat the ability to change lives
doesn't just come from likelarge corporations. It's it's
like this particular frugalinnovation had the opportunity

(38:50):
to save so many lives and touchso many people. But it was in
parentheses at the time I wasbusy doing other things. It was
a, it was a, it was aparenthetical experience within
a larger context of being amentor to a an entrepreneur who
came out of Stanford. Okay, butthat experience hit me deeply,

(39:13):
okay, the second beat is theunderstanding. Of the numbers of
the world right now tell a storythat the young people coming up
and having opportunities are notnecessarily only in my zip code,

(39:36):
and even though I live inOakland, which is an interesting
area, and you start to see theimportance of leadership and the
importance of innovation and theimportance of investment in
community as a core, a coreimperative, yeah. So I would say
the second beat is to look atthe. World. And then, of course,

(39:59):
my, my little minor third beatis my kind of the words to live
by for me are, take the trip.
Yeah. So, you know, Dana calls

Dina Sherif (40:12):
you on the phone and says, Can you come to

Unknown (40:15):
I literally, like, take the trip. And so, like, you
can't get off a plane in Cairo,and feel like, oh, the whole
world is exactly identical. No,it's not. Or in Sao Paulo, or in
Bogota. Bogota, you know this,as you know the story of this
company of the whole book, thethrough line of this whole book

(40:37):
is a company in Bogota that had,that's why I mentioned Bogota. I
mean, it's really true. Like, Imeet this guy randomly. He had
just been at a conference. Imeet him randomly. We're
crossing the street. He's like,what do you do? I help companies
that are stuck. And he said, andhe says, Well, I've got a
company that's stuck. And thenext thing you know, I'm like,
flying to Bogota, you know,first time. So, so in answer to

(41:00):
your question, without, youknow, getting into the story of
my book, it's like, you can't bea human. Get off an airplane
experience these incredibleopportunities and brilliance all
over the world. And, you know,I'm working with reform in
Africa. And you know, it's justincredible when you go to places

(41:22):
and see the innovation that'shappening in so many levels, you
can't just be a one size fitsall mindset around innovation.
Yeah, I remember, actually,years ago, when I was working
with Royal Dutch Shell, Iremember going to Kuala Lumpur
and getting off the plane andgoing, wow, like, there's a lot
of hustle going on in thisplace. You know, 18 year old

(41:45):
telecom entrepreneurs. You know,the world is full of, yeah,

Dina Sherif (41:51):
no, I was hoping you were gonna say, and one of
my beats was meeting all of yourfellows.

Unknown (41:56):
Oh, well, that's the beat that's coming. So, so
there's a there's, I mean, andI'm, you know, that's sort of
the third, the third andimportant beat is meeting
fellows like I remember youcalled me up and, you know, I
have this circle of trust, whichis people that I'll say yes to.
But then there's this circle ofmust, and Dina is in that circle

(42:18):
of must. There might be fivepeople in that circle. So when
you called me up and said, youknow, can you come and speak to
the fellows and meet thefellows? And I'm like, Well,
speak. I

Dina Sherif (42:26):
asked you to keynote the kind of end of year
celebration of our fellows,

Unknown (42:31):
correct? And I thought, as usual, like, Oh, give a
keynote at MIT for fellows thatI've never met.
Sure Dina. Sure Dina,Commissioner, Gordon Batman,
yeah. I saw the bat signal,yeah. I'll say yes. And then I
had to, like, watch 800,000speeches from, like, people who
had done this before and preparebut

Dina Sherif (42:53):
it was then that you, you came up with the phrase
ecosystems of purpose. That's

Unknown (42:58):
correct. I met those fellows, and I remember thinking
I would sit in for sort ofresearch purposes, and I could
not leave the room. The fellowswere sitting presenting the
final versions of their insightsfrom their entire year's
experience. And each of them hadhad revelations and deep

(43:25):
insights about the ecosystemsthey visited ecosystems. They
visited ecosystems that theywere committed to running. They
had this sense of hugecommitment, I would say,
commitment to being agents havechanged. And it was from
countries I hadn't been to atthe time. I hadn't even been to
Cairo, and there were peoplefrom Egypt, there were people

(43:47):
from Africa, all over thecontinent, people from Latin
America. And I thought, youknow, this is the future.

Dina Sherif (43:53):
Yeah, I agree with that. I want to talk about this
phrase you often say is thatintense business is intensely
fun. And, you know,collaborating with entrepreneurs
and corporate leaders andgovernment officials and those

(44:14):
engaged in R and D, that's thatcreates an energy that fuels
innovation, but it's also fun,and that's the spirit we see in
many of our markets. People arebuilding creating, and I've seen
as people are buildingecosystems, and that creating a
new community that can also bevery fun. But you know, your

(44:38):
work also involves dealing withdifficult and intense realities
of the conditions that manypeople are under in the markets
that we serve, and in the faceof all those difficulties, how
do you hold on to hope and howdo you hold on to fun and.

(45:00):
Staying excited.

Unknown (45:02):
Okay, so like every single baby all over the world
plays Peekaboo, I am not kiddingyou, like I was wherever I go.
I'm just amazed. Like last weekin Sao Paulo, I was sitting by
myself in a restaurant, watchingfamilies and their children, and
there was just laughter andsharing. Then I went and saw

(45:23):
people who are living in a muchless, you know, in the favelas,
basically, you know. And guesswhat? They play peek a boo.
There are universals aboutpeople loving their kids,
wanting tomorrow to be betterthan today, and feeling that
their contribution will somehowmatter. I experienced it in

(45:43):
every single place. As I said,you know, mostly what we're
talking about today is Africa,Latin America. I mean, you see
it right now at the same time,there are these huge inequities.
So first of all, there's there'sthe economic issues, there's
food scarcity that I believe isan ecosystem of purpose, energy,

(46:07):
the very basics. And the reasonit's fun is when you start to
realize that putting differentplayers together, and I've
watched this with you and thefellows so many times, the
sparks that fly when someonesaid, You know what I'm doing
and what you're doing, like, oneplus one is five. And then they
get somebody else on board.
Like, last week was electric.

(46:27):
Every speaker that came had anamplification, had a way of,
like, creating this biggervision. But it's not until we're
together with other people thatthose sparks start. Yeah, and so
to me, that's, that's the onlything we need to do. We can't
sit in our offices. We can't sitin our own places of business.

(46:47):
It's that feeling of scalecoming from amplification.
There's a lot of big words, butlike, the ecosystems are like, I
always say ecosystem is actuallya verb. Yeah, we do it. It it is
it, it's verbs, it's action. Andthat's to me. I mean, that's
what

Dina Sherif (47:05):
we say about leadership. Leadership is an
activity. It's not a noun. Oh,

Unknown (47:11):
that's 100% aligned.
Yeah, I hadn't heard that, yes,well, and also, if we think
about it, like the curiosity andthe courage that we were talking
about earlier, that I you know,that I experienced, like, I'm
curious, or I feel something'sunacceptable, but then I have to
have a little courage that isactually a team sport. Yeah? You
know, you can't do that alone.

(47:33):
And actually, I'll quote someonein the book, Frank bonophilia,
from the Edison awards, saysthat, like innovation is a team
sport, yeah, so, so that's whatto me, in growth economies, the
community. In every economicpart of any place where you go,

(47:53):
you see the community. There arepeople sharing meals. There are
people who care about oneanother. There are people with
family and extended family. It'suniversal, and, you know, we
just have to make it better for

Dina Sherif (48:03):
people, and that's what keeps you going.

Unknown (48:06):
No, it's the peekaboo games. The peekaboo games,
pretty much, I

Dina Sherif (48:10):
love it. So in one of your recent talks, you said
that 2025, is going to be theyear of the Leap Frog for
technology and entrepreneurship.
What do you mean by that? And Iknow that, you know, everyone's
gonna think, oh, AI, but I'msure it's deeper than that,

Unknown (48:28):
much deeper. So I've been through a leapfrog with
Telecom, right, like, where Iwas working with Telmex years
ago, and they couldn't do thelast mile, you know what that
is, yeah, so they would have,like, a phone and a need in a
house and the last mile forpeople who don't know it's like
Dina's phone was going to bethree years to be connected. So
then there's this thing calledMobile, and it leapfrogged,

(48:49):
yeah, okay, I feel that that'slike on steroids right now,
right? Because the young peoplewho and it's not just an AI,
it's the capacity for people toaccept change, like everybody
quotes the same. I think it'strite, like it took x number of
months for people to useFacebook, it took x number of
months for people to use Amazon,Alibaba, whatever actually like

(49:13):
the speed, the speed ofadaptation, is so much the norm
with young people today, right?
So to me, that's the that's,that's the that's the juice.
Because in previous generations,it's like the expectation was,
oh, there's a car on an assemblyline, it's going to be chassis,
wheels like that, and thensuddenly it's like, LiDAR, oh,

(49:36):
like, that's disruptive, right?
So I just feel it. I feel likethe ability for young people all
over the world to not be barredwhen it comes to access to
technology. I mean, that's stillan issue in a lot of
communities. I'm not trying tobe naive about that, but yeah, I

(49:56):
think it's leapfrog, becauseaccess. Plus comfort with the
speed of change means that a lotof people all over the world,
from surprising places, aregoing to come up with phenomenal
new platforms. And every singleday, I meet people who are kind
of in garage equivalents andjust coming up with great new

(50:18):
ideas. And

Dina Sherif (50:19):
very likely it's a lot of it is going to come from
growth markets, it's

Unknown (50:24):
the thing that I think is most important, that people
miss about growth markets isthere is zero complacency.
That's right, when there's zerocomplacency, that is an edge,
that is a leg up, becausecomplacency and comfort can
sometimes also be a place thatkeeps us conservative

Dina Sherif (50:50):
and where innovation dies.

Unknown (50:52):
Well, I did not say that okay, but I did,

Dina Sherif (50:55):
that's okay. They can quote Dina on that one, so
we know a little bit about whyyou're doing this, and we spoke
about the need to createmovements. So I want to ask you
who you're doing this for, like,what, who is it that you really
want to impact, and what kind ofa movement are you trying to

(51:20):
build right now, because I heara movement coming.

Unknown (51:25):
The reason that I'm, like, so excited to be
entrepreneur in residence hereat MIT, us too, us too, and
because I believe that the andI'm not, once again, it's not my
ego that's saying that thesetools, but we haven't had the
tools to do the LeapFrog thing.
You know, we had, like, lineartools to do a leapfrog thing, so
that, you know SWOT analysisthat's linear ever you know

(51:48):
spreadsheets linear. So wehaven't had the right tools at
the same time that we had thesepeople, like your fellows. I
mean, these are the leaders forthe next generation. I know some
of them are already ingovernment positions.

Dina Sherif (52:04):
We have one who just became Minister of Economy,
of Gabon. It's a big

Unknown (52:08):
deal, right? So these, literally are the leaders of the
next generation. So the rightleaders with the right tools at
this moment of revolution andleapfrog, to me, the most
important thing is to empowerthem to go back to their
communities and lead their ownecosystem. So it's sort of like

(52:28):
wildfires, oh, I shouldn't usethat because of what's been
going on again, yeah, but, but,you know, it's sort of, it's
sort of the ability to igniteother ecosystems and create
these flywheels, you know? Andonce again, what's interesting
to me, let's just start with thebasics of what's unacceptable,
food scarcity, completelyunacceptable. Fixable. Yes. Does

(52:52):
it need an ecosystem of purpose?
Yes, it does. Are people workingon it? Yes. Is there redundancy?
Yes. Do we need to get rid ofthe redundancy? Have better
leaders use technology to mapwhat's already happening and do
better and consolidate. Yes, so,yeah, let's just start with food
scarcity. Yeah, you know. Andthat also then looks at AG tech,
and that also looks attechnology. I mean, there's each

(53:15):
one of these has a rippleeffect, but I would say, let's
start with food. Let's startwith energy. Let's start with
water. Let's start with accessto health care. I mean, should I
go on? These are the leaders,the fellows at MIT, and people
that they touch are the leadersthat are going to solve these
problems that conservativethinking and linear models will

(53:36):
not solve. It's

Dina Sherif (53:39):
interesting because I had a business circle Advisory
Board meeting today, and one ofthem said, you know, one of the
incredible superpowers of thecenter is this is the only
center at MIT that is taking SoMIT has given birth to an
endless number of entrepreneurs,but this is the center that

(54:00):
represents the entrepreneurs whoare taking MIT global,

Unknown (54:04):
right? Well, it's interesting, because in the book
from stack to scale, there is aprofile of Alex De Soto, who's
not a fellow, but he's a leaderwho grew up in Nigeria, went to
Silicon Valley, worked atNvidia, and then decided to work
for something called ahura.aiand still works in AI for
Africa. So there's this feelingof tether. You know, where

(54:28):
you're born matters. Where yougo should also serve where
you're born. And at the end ofthe day, there's this feeling in
many, many people, but certainlyyour fellows, that there's an
obligation and a commitment. Imean, there's, there's a lot of
deep

Dina Sherif (54:48):
hunger, there's a lot to serve their countries.
Yeah, no, 100% even, even in me,right? I'm here at MIT. I'm
Egyptian. I still want tocontinue to help Egypt evolve
part. My position here. So itdoes matter where you're from
really matters. So I'm going toask you a question. And, you
know, I think Donovan reallyliked this question a lot,

(55:09):
because I did a podcast withChristopher Schroeder who, you
know,

Unknown (55:13):
yes, Christopher Schroeder, love Chris, who
introduced us,

Dina Sherif (55:17):
yes. Begin

Unknown (55:18):
with, I was on stage with him in Dubai, well, at
Dubai, and then

Dina Sherif (55:21):
he's the one who introduced us back in 2014 it's
crazy. So, you know, I wasasking Christopher Schroeder,
how do you get through, like,the massive amount of requests
and emails and, you know,demands that people have of you?
You know, we only have 24 hoursin a day, and part of that we
need to give to sleep. Well,except for you and him, you
don't sleep much. And he thenended up reversing the question

(55:44):
on me and saying, Well, how doyou do it? And so now I'm posing
the question to you with only 24hours in a day, how do you
balance all of the differentroles that you play, all of the
different you know, people thatyou're trying to serve because
you, I've seen you so many, somany entrepreneurs want to get a

(56:06):
little bit of advice from AndreaCates, and you often do this for
free. You do this because youwant to serve, but it eats up a
lot of time. So how do youbalance all these roles, and how
do you choose where to investyour energy, and how do you
continue to ensure that at thevery center of it is meaningful

(56:28):
for you.

Unknown (56:30):
That's deep we try that's a deep one. Thank you.
Donovan and Dina. Well, I have acouple of rules. So number one
is the rule of radio frequency,which is an RF is, you know, in

(56:50):
it's like an a way that somebodyoperates. And so when someone's
on a certain radio frequency, Ican feel it, and you're on that.
And when I meet people likethat, I can feel it right away
that these are the people thatare going to be true to their
word have an impact on many andbe responsible enough to learn

(57:17):
what they need to to achievehard things. So that's RF,
that's the radio frequency. Sothat's my top of, like, every
single day I start with RF. Thisis how you select. That's right
at the bottom is toxic peoplewho want to get rid of. I mean,
honestly, I have, yeah. So you

Dina Sherif (57:38):
get older, older, you do learn how to 100%

Unknown (57:43):
so there's kind of, like, you know, when you're
sifting sand, like, yeah, allthe toxic people are gone. So,
so that. So that's easy, becausethere's a lot of toxic, you know
what I mean, people who are notgoing to really serve well,
okay, but that, but then I'mabout leverage, and I'm about
legacy, and so the book, for meis leverage, because it can be

(58:03):
many things. It can be books, itcan be podcasts, it can be it
repurposed many, many things. Itcan be a class at MIT, class at
MIT, a textbook for everybusiness school. Now should,
should be based on thisapproach. And it's also it ends.
The book ends with what's yourstory? So it's a recursive
theme, where my stories andtelling of these stories should

(58:24):
give birth to other peopletelling stories in this mode, so
that there's a collectiveresource bank for others to
learn from. So that's the otherthing. And I think the third is
what you said earlier, it's fun.
I mean, it is so much fun whenyou meet people who are just
into it, like, like, like, like,literally, you can feel the
fierceness of people, yeah, andthat's how I live it. And I'm

(58:48):
just lucky because I charge aton of money for some so that I
don't have to charge anythingfor others.

Dina Sherif (58:56):
And that's the way to do it. So my final question,
my final question is aboutlegacy. So you know, we all live
our lives, and sometimes we getcaught up in the grind, but we
only get to do this once, and weneed to think about what we want

(59:18):
this once to mean. So myquestion to you is, when your
time is up, and all of our timewill be up, we don't know when,
when that will happen. We don'tknow how, but we know that
there's an expiry date. How doyou want to be remembered? What
do you want your legacy to be?

Unknown (59:42):
I goes back to I'm gonna cry again, okay? Goes back
to your dad. It does I so my dadhad rules for survival, and they
were so famous that we read themat his funeral, and he we made a
like a little poster, and wehanded it out at the fun.
Enroll, and then everybodywanted it. And honestly, this is

(01:00:03):
so crazy that you're asking methis because last weekend, I was
at my girlfriend's house inPhiladelphia, where I grew up,
and I looked on the refrigeratorand they were my dad's rules for
survival, and that's his legacy.
So I think I'd love to be havehave a legacy of people being
able to have guidance for how tobe great entrepreneurs and great

(01:00:26):
business leaders with a withthings that work with tools that
work with a do it yourselfsystem that works so that it
can, like keep on giving. Ithink that that honestly to walk
in His rules for survival. Havea picture of a squirrel with a
pair of glasses and like, alittle hickory stick, and then

(01:00:46):
there's, like, his rules forsurvival. So I think it would be
cool to have like, you know,like, like a squirrel with
glasses and a hickory stick and,you know, kind of, Andrea's five
stages. Five Stages. I love it.
Yeah,

Dina Sherif (01:01:03):
I love it. Well, you know, I mean, I want to say
that you've deeply impacted mylife, and it's an honor to be in
your circle of must. I also, youknow, as you get older, you
start creating these circles,and they really matter. And you
are definitely in my circle ofmust. And I do hope that

(01:01:24):
everyone orders this book fromstuck to scale. It's an
important book, and I think it'sgoing to matter to a lot of
people, and what a beautifullegacy that is for you to leave
behind. And I'm, I'm kind ofconfident that there will be
more than this. So I want tothank you for joining us on this
episode of legacy of purpose,and I do hope that those

(01:01:46):
listening, like I said at thebeginning, are equally as
inspired by Andrea Cates as Ihave been over the years. And I
want to thank you for listeningor watching if you're on
YouTube. And I do want toencourage you all to go out and
buy that book. And don'thesitate to reach out to Andrea
on LinkedIn. She does answer,she will answer. So if you want

(01:02:06):
to vibrate on her level, doreach out. Thank you all for
listening.

Unknown (01:02:21):
You.
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