“Leadership Is Not About You—It’s About Those You Serve” Conversation with Former Minister Sandiaga Uno

In this powerful episode of A Legacy of Purpose: Conversations with Dina H. Sherif, we sit down with Sandiaga Salahuddin Uno—Indonesia’s former Minister of Tourism and Creative Economy, a seasoned entrepreneur, and global thought leader in inclusive development.

From scaling businesses after the Asian Financial Crisis to creating millions of good-quality jobs during COVID-19, Minister Uno’s story is one of resilience, vision, and deep commitment to public service. Together, we explore how his entrepreneurial background shaped his approach to governance, why he believes entrepreneurship is a form of resistance to the status quo, and how countries like Indonesia are rewriting their global narrative through innovation, digital storytelling, and youth empowerment.

We also dive into his reflections on faith, family, AI, and the creative economy’s power to shape culture and commerce.

Available now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube.

Host: Dina Sherif
Produced by Donovan Beck

For Media Inquiries:
Donovan Beck

Communications and Storytelling Coordinator

Legatum Center for Development and Entrepreneurship

Sloan School of Management
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
292 Main St, E38, 5th Floor, Cambridge, MA 02142
[e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Dina Sherif (00:09):
So welcome back to legacy of purpose, and today,
we're super, super honored towelcome former Minister of
Tourism and creative economy SanDiego salah. Din uno, very
happy, very proud of the Salah.
Din Aub, part So Sandy, or pasSandy, as we would call you in

(00:29):
Indonesia, is a visionaryentrepreneur, a global advocate
for economic transformation. Andwhen he was minister, he played
a critical role in repositioningIndonesia's tourism industry,
and fostering a new era ofdigital entrepreneurship and
championing AI driven economicgrowth, which I'm super excited
to hear about. I was firstintroduced to the former

(00:52):
minister by a very close friendwho was also on this podcast,
RIT, who was the dear friend ofmine I know, former CEO of grab
Indonesia, and also a member ofour business circle Advisory
Board, very close friend to oursender center. And it's
incredibly exciting to have thechance to have you with us on
this podcast. Thank you forcoming. Thank you for being with

(01:14):
us. Thank you for having me.
Dina, no pleasure is all allours, and we're very excited to
delve deep into who you are andand your career, but I feel you
know, when I first met you overzoom with ritzy, one of the

(01:35):
first things you said to me was,oh Dina, I love coming to Boston
because of my daughter. And it,it was interesting to me to
pause and think when I thoughtback to that moment, because,
you know, this was a zoom call,and it was meant to be a
business, kind of transactionalmeeting of, you know, Sandy, I
want to introduce you to thecenter. And ritzy wanted me to

(01:57):
know more about your work, andyou started this conversation
about your family, and that is,I think, wonderful. So I want to
ask you, who is San Diego uno,beyond the massive titles and
achievements that you've hadacross your career, because in

(02:21):
that conversation, you didn'tlead with any of that you led
with your daughter. Yeah,

Minister Uno (02:27):
I'm a father and a husband first and foremost. And
I come from a very small family,

Dina Sherif (02:41):
and not from Jakarta. Originally,

Minister Uno (02:42):
not from Jakarta.
I'm kind of well, Indonesia.
We'd like to invite you to cometo Indonesia eventually. But is
a country of 17,000 islands. Mydad comes from the east part of
the country. My mom is fromJava, the most populated island,

(03:06):
and I was born in Sumatra, whichis one of the largest island in
the West. So I'm kind of mix ofdifferent parts of country, part
of the country, and this is acountry that went through, I
guess, series of, I would say,Dutch rule for about 300 plus

(03:33):
year, and then Japaneseoccupations three and a half to
four years, and we gain ourindependence in 1945 so the
strength of the nation isculture of unity and diversity.

(03:55):
So we're family, very familydriven very What do you call
close knit? It's a very smallcommunity, although it has 280
million

Dina Sherif (04:06):
I was going to say Indonesia's anything but small,
but it's you, but it's communal.
It's

Minister Uno (04:13):
very communal.
People knows, families fromdifferent generations, more than
450 languages, 700 ethnicgroups. I think local dialects
could range up to 1000 so, andit's the largest archipelago, so

(04:33):
it's unique. So when we, and inparticular, my experience relate
to somebody. It's always we comefrom, from people point of view,
very personal point of view. AndI think it has some advantage in
business, but also have some i.

(04:59):
Challenges when you approachthings like this, on a technical
matter with in particularpolitics. But I'm so glad we got
to meet and I'm here. Mydaughter lives in Boston for the
last six, seven years, and shewas married a couple of years

(05:22):
ago, and she worked togetherwith a husband here in Boston.
So any chance, any chance youcan come visit, visit,
especially in this warm weather,with some snow, snow in the
background, it would be it wouldnot only make me happy, but my
wife is very happy.

Dina Sherif (05:43):
So let me just ask you. You know you've honestly
reading reading through yourcareer and the highs and the
lows, but you've achieved quitea bit, both as a business leader
and as a policy maker. But thatmust have been a very, very busy
life, but yet you said, I'm afather, I'm a husband, before

(06:08):
you mentioned any of yourtitles. So in the midst of all
of the madness of your life, howdid you keep family at the
center?

Minister Uno (06:17):
Very difficult.
Because when, throughout mycareer, I've been focusing, I
take my jobs very seriously. Idon't take myself that as
serious as I'm taking my jobbecause I think you know, my

(06:38):
past career has been aprofessional and I serve my
company, the bosses, theshareholders, and, you know, put
not only nine to five, but evencrazy hours. And I tried to
always find time for family andfor, I guess, religiously taking

(07:06):
time to reflect on the journey.
And that got changed when I stepinto politics and and public
service, because you once Well,everything is fair, in love war

(07:31):
and politics,

Dina Sherif (07:34):
I don't know about fair. Fair

Minister Uno (07:36):
means that it's, it's, it's game on. Basically,
yeah, you, you no longer have aprivate life. You everything is
open to the public. Everythingis open and with social media,
and I step into politics at theage of social media. So at that
time, Facebook, Instagram andTwitter is now called X is the

(08:04):
means of people knowing aperson, especially aspiring
politicians and and that took alot of convincing to my family,
because they have really beenvery private. My wife and my

(08:27):
kids are very, very valuing ourprivacy so much, and when I made
that commitment, general Prabhu,who's now the president, was the
one convincing me to say, Okay,you it's a great story. You were

(08:48):
laid off. You lost your jobduring the Asian financial
crisis. You built your businessfrom scratch, from three people,
and now you have 30,000employees, but your impact is
only to get 30,000 employees,maybe plus their families,
120,000 if you go into publicservice, you're going to serve

(09:10):
millions, and you're going tomake impact to millions of
Indonesians that really neededsome interventions to provide
wealth and prosperity. So thatgot me thinking, and so I
negotiated with my wife.
Initially, she was not verythrilled, but and she got in

(09:32):
kicking and screaming, but thenshe was convinced my kids at
that time we we have a veryyoung son and two daughters were
in college and going intocollege. She said that both,
both of them said, Okay, you gointo politics. We're gonna stay

(09:56):
away from. The public eye fromthe public eye so they switch
off their social media. One ofthem dropped the last name and
and we adjust as a family verywell, because we used to go like
yearly vacations, we go also tosummer holidays. But that became

(10:24):
difficult, that become notdoable at all. So since 2016
2016 up to last year when Istepped down, it's eight to nine
years, almost 10 years of publiclife, and I think I'm very
grateful, very thankful to Godthat my family continue to

(10:50):
support and now that I have somefree time, been spending time
with them, give

Dina Sherif (10:57):
them time again.
Yes, yes. Maybe go back tomaking money again. This

Minister Uno (11:01):
is something that I know I'm I know I have
delivered in the past, and atleast much better delivery than
my political career. But I'mlooking forward to go back to
investing, going back tobusiness, creating economic

(11:22):
opportunities. We just met someof very, very inspiring young

Dina Sherif (11:29):
Yeah, you had quite a big crowd here at MIT, coming
from universities across very

Minister Uno (11:33):
excited. I'm very excited, and I I've gone through
the process. I know I could workwith any of the stakeholders I
am stepping out from politics,and I think I enjoying spending
time with the young generations,with entrepreneurs, micro,

(11:54):
small, medium and enterprises tocreate economic opportunities.
You know, at the core of what Ireally believe is, I think I
could help my country and theregion by creating good quality
jobs. Yeah, I

Dina Sherif (12:09):
want to go back in time a little bit in your life.
You studied here, you went toGW, studied here in the US, and
you worked here for a littlewhile, and likely you could have
stayed here and built a lifehere, if you wanted to. And you
know, you met with a group ofstudents from across the

(12:32):
universities here in the in theBoston, Cambridge area, who are
probably struggling with thisidea of, do I stay in America,
or do I go back to Indonesia orthe rest of Southeast Asia,
where many of the students comefrom? Actually, you had quite a
few from South Asia too. And youknow, I'm an Egyptian, and here

(12:55):
at the center, most of ourstudent fellows come from growth
markets across the world, andthey want to build ventures back
home and go home. And there isalways this concern of, do I
stay and build here? Do I gohome and I built? But you made a
decision to go back. And all ofour countries, my country, your

(13:16):
country, we're we are dealingwith a massive population of
young people, and we're alsoseeing massive brain drain of
our incredible talent goingelsewhere, but you went back.
Why?

Minister Uno (13:36):
Well, apart from the issues of opportunities, but
at that time, the only way toserve your country, and I'm
extremely grateful that you knowpart of my education was funded

(13:56):
By scholarship, is to give backby going back in my country. But
time has changed Dina. Now whatI'm telling students like the
students that we met here at MITis you could be anywhere
physically, and you couldcontribute to your country or to

(14:22):
your purpose by becausetechnology is here, you could be
a diaspora that deliver the bestimpact to whatever you do,
regardless of where you are,through technologies and through
this intertwined relationshipthat we have among regions. So

(14:50):
going back, I think I look atmyself in nine. 19 in the late
1980s early 1990s when Igraduated, I could stay here,
yeah, and build something. Idon't sure, but I would,

(15:12):
probably would not see the typeof opportunities and growth that
we see at our market. Our marketis it is called emerging markets
or developing we call

Dina Sherif (15:25):
it growth markets.
We call it actually the highestpercentage of growth is
happening in the markets thatpeople kind of look down upon.
Yeah,

Minister Uno (15:34):
we are growth market. And at that time,
Indonesia is growing at 8% theregion is growing North of 5%
while in the developed market,stagnating, is stagnating. And I
see people entrepreneurs whobuilt business within five
years, they made it to the IPOlandscape. And this is where I

(16:01):
guess a lot of problems, I don'tsee it as problems, but I see it
as opportunities. Exactly thatneeds to be solved by
entrepreneurs who would beinnovative enough and courageous
dare to take risks andproactive, which is the

(16:22):
entrepreneurial orientationsthat could make a difference.
And I'm so, so grateful that Imade that decision to come back.
To come back.

Dina Sherif (16:36):
We have a fellow we also did a podcast with him, but
it will come out a little later.
And he's an Egyptian fellow inthe renewable energy space. And
he was the first he representeda company called Carm solar. It
was the first IPP in Egypt, andthat was started over a decade
ago. And when he started, he wasyoung, you know, and he was

(16:59):
working in London and bigmultinational. He could have
stayed there. He decided to comeback to Egypt and start an IPP,
an independent power producer,and he was the first, and
everyone said to him, forget it.
You're never going to make it,especially in the current

(17:20):
climate, and it's socomplicated, and this is such a
complicated market. And he sayssomething that I think all of us
here at the Center have taken toheart and taken very seriously.
He said, first of all, I love mycountry, and I want my country
to prosper, because I havechildren and they need to have a

(17:41):
future. And he says,entrepreneurship is a form of
resistance. And I say, butresistance to what? And he said,
resistance to the status quo. Wehave an obligation to create
change and to fight and to pushfor a better tomorrow, and that

(18:02):
is a form of resistance. Wouldyou agree with that?

Minister Uno (18:07):
I 1,000% agree with that. Entrepreneurship is
basically proving a point wherepeople are telling you, you're
not going to make it, you're notgoing to make it, you're not
going to make it. I had asimilar experience during Asian
financial crisis, when we gotback this very famous consultant
from top management consultingfirm saying that you are not

(18:32):
going to make it and Indonesiawill not make it right. It's too
big to manage, too many islands,too complicated, too
complicated, too many people,too many less educated people,
sub $1,000 GDP per capita, fullfledged democracy. You are not

(18:53):
going to make it. This is toodifficult, and I took it as a
challenge. And thisentrepreneurial spirits. And I
think entrepreneurs look at thismore as a fuel to even work
harder, absolutely and be alittle rebellious and
rebellious. And, you know, I wastelling I still remember his

(19:15):
name. I don't want to mention ithere. I still remember his firm.
It's a big firm up until now,but he was proven wrong. 25
years later, not only I've ableto build a good business, but
Indonesia's thriving democracy.
It is a growing economy, aworking and growing economy,
whereby we're moving up from sub1000 GDP per capita to about

(19:38):
5000 GDP per capita now andwithin 20 years, we're going to
make it to a status of developednations. Inshallah. Definitely
have to say that Inshallah, andI believe that it is a form of
resistance, but alsoentrepreneurship. Fosters

(19:58):
leaderships, you would see thespirits of entrepreneurs really
trans translate later on toleadership in every sectors,
including government. ThePresident, before general
Prabowo was an entrepreneur, andgeneral Prabha is also an

(20:19):
entrepreneur. He builtbusinesses. He has an
entrepreneurial mindset, yeah,and then don't, don't take me
wrong. Entrepreneurship is not aprofession. It's a mindset. You

Dina Sherif (20:32):
know, here at the center, we, we, we say we don't
believe in the title leader, andwe create this distinction
between authority andleadership. And we think
leadership is an activity. It'snot a noun. And we say
entrepreneurship, that is trulytrying to solve a problem, is an

(20:55):
act of leadership, and thattakes courage. And I think it's
a very interesting distinction.
What you were saying is thatentrepreneurs are constantly on
this path of exertingleadership, creating a new path
that didn't exist before. So Iwant to ask you, you know, you,
you created this very successfulbusiness, you generated wealth,

(21:20):
you created jobs, and when youaccepted, like you said, to move
into public policy, because youwanted to create greater impact.
And I'm with you. I believe thatwhen you move into public
policy. It's a different scale,and you have the opportunity to

(21:42):
influence change at a massivescale, but I have seen many
entrepreneurs go into publicpolicy. So my question to you
is, how did being anentrepreneur and building a
venture bottom up that was thatscaled and did really, really
well. How did that impact yourability to also engage in public

(22:04):
policy and transform a sector asMinister of Tourism and creative
economies, how did you take whatyou learned to apply to that
ministry and to public policy.

Minister Uno (22:26):
The biggest difference when I make the
transitions is a lot of peopleask, Are you going into politics
for because there's a lot ofpoliticians in our part of the
world would go into politics forpower, for fame, for fortunes,

(22:49):
instead of service, instead ofto be able to serve. So I from
day one, I made the decisions Iwant to serve the people, and my
DNA as entrepreneurs wouldactually, later on, clash with

(23:12):
some of the DNA of politiciansor the values. And we need to
make adjustments to be able tocommunicate better to the
people. So I would rely on when,when I was in business. We use

(23:35):
data, we use due diligence, weuse surveys, we use qualitative
and quantitative evaluationswhen we make decisions. So
first, before you serve, youneed to win elections, and
that's a challenge. I started mypublic life not being appointed,

(23:59):
but by proving to the leadershipof and at the time, general
Prabhu is the leader of ourpolitical party that I joined,
that I'm capable to win inelections. So through datas and
before serving in ministerialpose. I was a vice governor of

(24:27):
Jakarta, and we ran a very toughcampaign in 2017 we managed to
win, and that is basically wasenabled by the use of good
quality data, and at the end ofthe day, is what the people need

(24:49):
and what are in the top of theirminds they would expect
government to do. And this isvery similar to your approach
to. Read products. So I wouldsay very, very close similarity
between consumer goods and andpolitics. When you run for for

(25:15):
an office, you need tocommunicate that you have what
it takes to solve the problemthat majority of the people
need. And nine years ago, as asmuch as today, people want to
have a better life. And whenthey are pressed, what type of

(25:38):
better life? Oh, I want to havebetter economy. What do you mean
by better economy? I want tohave an income. How are you
going to get an income? I wantto have a job, but not low
paying jobs. I want to have goodpaying jobs, quality jobs. What

(26:03):
do you think you would aspireto? I want to start my business.
I want to start my macro, small,medium enterprises. I want to be
my own captain of my ship. Sothen, when we see all this
iterations of what would be atthe core of what the people

(26:27):
want, then you would be able todesign as a public servant, as a
civil servant, as a as leadersin the government policies that
would basically create goodquality jobs, provide economic
opportunities so they can starttheir own micro, small, medium

(26:49):
enterprises. Help them withtraining, help them with
marketing, help help them withfinancing, access to banking. So
all this is something that Ibelieve I was able to gain from
early on in my my career as apublic service leader and and I

(27:16):
think I take this not asconstant, but very dynamic on
and religiously, every sixmonths I would refresh myself
with the most recent data. Thisdata driven and evidence based
have served me well, both whenwe were leading 30,000

(27:42):
employees, to managing a city of10 million people, creating
120,000 jobs, to leading aministry that basically provide
livelihood to about 50 millionIndonesians. So those type of
experience really helped.

Dina Sherif (28:01):
I love it. It's all about understanding the
consumer, right, and who you aretrying to serve, whether it be
through your business or throughpublic service.

Minister Uno (28:10):
And it's never about me, no, always about the
consumer. It's all about thepeople and how you could
positively impact their life.
Yeah. So

Dina Sherif (28:20):
I, you know, I watched a bunch like, Donovan, I
watched a bunch of yourinterviews, and there is
something consistent that you'vesaid, like, I mean, and you, you
probably speak Indonesian. Now,I did watch a number of
interviews where I had to read,you know, but it was great. And
one of the things youconsistently said, and, you
know, you've only been out ofgovernment now for really

(28:42):
months. Like, no. I mean, areyou recovered? I mean, it's only
been a short time, right? Butyou throughout all your
interviews, you'd say one thing,when I became Minister of
Tourism and creative economies,I had zero tourists.

Minister Uno (28:57):
You have to know the story, because, and it was
during

Dina Sherif (28:59):
COVID. During COVID, there were no tourists
coming anywhere, you know? Imean, for countries like
Indonesia and Egypt, wheretourism is a big part of our
livelihood, COVID impacted us,and you became minister with
zero tourists. But yet you youtook on the challenge, and you
ended your time as Ministerhaving created millions of good

(29:23):
quality jobs, that's wonderfuland really beautiful. And it's a
short time frame, because 2020,to 20, it's four years. You
started with zero, you endedwith millions of tourists and
millions of good jobs for thepeople of Indonesia and and I

(29:43):
just, I want to say, like, whatwas going through your mind at
the beginning when you started,and what was going through your
mind as you exited, okay? Andalso, I just want to throw in
there, you talk about Swift,Swift genomics a lot.

Unknown (29:59):
Ah. Ah,

Dina Sherif (30:00):
and, you know, I was like, Oh, my God, he's a
Swiftie. How did you have to howdid you throw that one in the
mix

Minister Uno (30:10):
first to understand the context a little
bit better, we went through avery tough campaign in 2019 when
I ran with general proposal forthe presidential elections, we
lost to Pat Jokowi, theincumbent back then, and it was

(30:32):
I was his campaign spoke personin 2014 when he ran first time,
the first time as president. SoI know the talking points very
well. And you know, we werecompeting against a very strong
president, incumbent thatactually loved by the people,

(30:53):
but towards the end, because ofa tough campaign, and I guess
you're very familiar withpolitics in our part of the
world, in the emerging markets,all

Dina Sherif (31:09):
too familiar. All too familiar. It's always all
messy. So messy

Minister Uno (31:13):
would be the word.
But what happened is, I managedto convince through my
entrepreneurial background thatpolitics should not be a zero
sum game. Politics should whenyou really care for the people
and when your best interest isthe betterment of your people,
you need to work out somethingso the country is not divided

(31:39):
because it was such a messycampaign, so I initiated the
discussions, and later on, weformed the unity government
general Prabha, who served asMinister of Defense. I managed
to convince the president, thenby Jokowi, to say, you know, I
was really tired, and it wasreally exhausted, fatigue. I

(32:05):
need some time, and at thattime, I could show that major
part of my personal wealth wasused to fund the campaign, and I
said that maybe I need to take abreak and try to make back some
money. Yeah, so he was okay withthat. And after about a year,
year and a half at the height ofthe COVID, then I got the score.

(32:31):
So I got to interpreted this.
Did I do anything wrong?
President, angry at me, becausethe portfolio that was given to
me is probably the toughestportfolio, because we have zero
tourists coming in and zerotourist movement domestically.

(32:52):
But then I because I always seea glass half full. Well, this is
an empty glass, but I

Dina Sherif (33:00):
always see a glass mine is not empty.

Minister Uno (33:04):
I see the glass half full. Then I said that this
may be a chance for me to toprove that I could deliver the
type of innovations that wouldbe needed during COVID. So, you
know, the first six months. Iknow Bali is the epicenter of

(33:24):
Indonesian tourism, and it wascompletely like ghost town. So
we moved the headquarter of theministry to Bali from Jakarta,
to show that we're with thepeople we know us so much, so
much, and completely have theirlivelihood, their income,

(33:45):
disappear. So we We then madesome innovations in terms of
sustainable tourism, what wouldbe accepted so get people to
move around during COVID Andapparently, crowd control
limited. So we say that we maynot have this big tourist

(34:07):
attractions, but why don't wedemocratize to have tourism
village all over the country? Soit started with only 100 tourism
village, so now about 6600 sopeople have a chance to go, to
feel the village life, to feelthe nature. And now Indonesia is
at the top of rural tourismecosystem in the world, and

(34:33):
that's basically the pandemicwinner that we so that was the
beginning, and towards the end,as I prepare myself for the end
of my tenure is, you know, Ilook around, I see that, you
know, a lot of men is callingthe shot here at the ministry.

(34:59):
But. When I'm home, when I wedecide to go for vacations, who
calls a shot, who, who makesdecisions where to go. It's my
wife in creative economy too.
When I buy shirts, it's the wifechoosing. How come we have so
little women participation. So Imade it the point that towards

(35:22):
the end of my career, I want topEthel loans of the decision
makers will be women leaders. SoI was able to convince the
across the ministry, theleadership that we put in close
to 60% of upper echelon and topleaders of the ministry held by

(35:46):
women. And as I exited, I sortof like make few of the strong
statements of saying that thenext Minister should be women,
because women would understandtourism and creative economy
better and true enough. Thereyou go, the new minister, a new

(36:06):
minister, a woman minister, andshe's great. She's doing a good
job. And I think this issomething that going through my
mind is to leave the sectors ina better place and the ministry
with better leadership.

Dina Sherif (36:27):
I love it. I love it. I always love when women are
included, before I transition totalking going deeper into your
support of entrepreneurship andeconomic opportunity. You know
you, you often talk about, youoften say that Indonesia,

(36:52):
Indonesia's you talk aboutIndonesia's untapped potential,
right? And you know, when wetalk about Indonesia, and you
mentioned Indonesia to people inthe world. This the story tends
to navigate around, you know,the tropical paradise of Bali
and the tourist destination,which is great. You were
Minister of Tourism, butIndonesia so much more, yeah.

(37:16):
And I would imagine, like manycountries around the world who
get put in the same bucket asIndonesia. There's massive
untapped potential. So on thispodcast, what is the story of
Indonesia that you want peopleto know? Well, we're

Minister Uno (37:36):
the fourth most populous country in the world.
We're the third largestdemocracy. Indonesia is part of
the g20 our economy grows atnorth of 5% which is very, very
decent and remarkable. We havequintupled the GDP per capita in

(38:04):
the last 20 years, and we areheading towards the developed
nations status by 2045 but wewere completely punching way
below our belt, below ourweight. Some people know more

(38:26):
about Bali than about Indonesia.
And Indonesia is so much morethan tropical paradise in Bali,
but this is a country wherebyyou know, again, 25 years ago,
that same consultant mentionedto us that, Oh, it's too
Islamic. Uh, Indonesia is notgonna gonna register well with

(38:54):
foreign investors. I

Dina Sherif (38:58):
feel that we get that a lot you

Minister Uno (39:01):
would you come from Egypt, you would get the
same but not only that, we arenow a full fledged democracy. We
are growing economically, butwe're also maintaining a
moderate society, wherebytolerance, uh diversity,

(39:24):
diversity inclusions. And we hadwomen president before, and we
have an exciting market wherebythe green economy, if you look
at the epicentrics, thepotential of new and renewable

(39:48):
energies, technologies in termsof digital transformations, the
breakthrough in innovations ofhealthcare. There is humongous,
and I think Indonesia is beyondthe numbers. Have the most

(40:12):
exciting economic and socioeconomic landscape for people to
take a look at and invest ourmarket has been pretty much not
the market that people would seeright away when they look at

(40:34):
Asian opportunities or SoutheastAsia, they would look at other
markets. But this is somethingthat consistently, and I have
proved it working for LPS acrossNorth America, that we have been
delivering an above marketreturn for their investments in

(40:54):
Indonesia. And you need to havea good 510, years down the road
perspectives, rather than fromquarter to quarter analysis. And
this is something that I've beentrying to convince thought
leaders, like minded investors,to give Indonesia some much

(41:19):
better exposure, and that's whyI'm I'm also here. Would like to
talk to MIT and your program toto put more attentions to
Indonesia in particular, andSoutheast Asia. Yeah,

Dina Sherif (41:35):
it's not just open for tourism. It's open for
investment opportunities. And Ithink it's time for our markets
to stop being seen with thisnarrow lens. Yes, there we have
so much more to offer, and Itotally get that. So you gave me
a great transition because, youknow, I would say over the past
15 years, you know, you'reright, Indonesia has also kind

(42:00):
of been on the rise as anentrepreneurial hub, and we've
seen Indonesia give birth tosome incredible ventures. I
don't like to say that havingunicorns is the the the kind of,
you know, goal that we want toachieve. I like to say, we like

(42:21):
to say lots of companies thathave kind of reached that kind
of middle to unicorn status forour economies, is fantastic, but
Indonesia has given birth to anumber of unicorns, and you were
just actually telling me thatgrab Indonesia, or grab and and
and Kojak have merged, which isfantastic. In the process, I've

(42:45):
read it in the news. We're inthe process of merging, which is
wonderful. But you've alsothere. There have been some
great unicorns that have beenborn in Indonesia. So I want how
have companies like the onesthat I've mentioned, and here at
the center, when we talk aboutunicorns, we like to talk about
the ripple effects of unicorns,not the goal is not the unicorn

(43:07):
itself or reaching that billiondollar status. The goal is, what
does reaching that billiondollar status do for your
economy when you're a growthmarket and when your
entrepreneurship and innovationecosystem is emerging. And so,
how, how? How did theseunicorns? What did that open up

(43:29):
for the ecosystem in Indonesia,and how did it shift the
narrative of the country

Minister Uno (43:37):
I was sharing, the story of how I get into tech
investments late, and we soldtoo early, and since then, we
have not recovered. So among thebig investment firm before I
left, we were probably the onlymajor investment firm which did

(44:03):
not make an investment into thebig eight or nine unicorns that
we have, and that's basicallybecause of our focus and our
models of wanting to see cashbeing generated in the business,
what we call delta betweenrevenues and costs that is

(44:27):
actually fueling the businessfor growth. But looking at, you
know, a lot of people ask, Howcome we have been able to
Indonesia, have been able toproduce this type of startups
into the unicorn status. And Ithink one contributing fact

(44:51):
would be the size of the market.
But interestingly, because I'vebeen in the side of the
government, some of thisunicorn. In was able to get to
that status and to the sizebecause of the absence of
government. When government notable to produce a type of

(45:12):
Transportations that would beneeded by the people,

Dina Sherif (45:18):
in comes the private sector, private

Minister Uno (45:20):
sectors when the banking sector is not able to
provide and up to now, only lessthan 30% of the micro, small,
medium enterprises have accessto proper banking facilities.
Then the FinTech comes in, whenthe markets and government,

(45:43):
because there's part of themarkets is also being dominated
by state owned enterprises havenot been able to provide the
affordable energies. Then yousee renewable energy, new and
renewable energies interventionsby this unicorns, and they move
so fast, and this is the type ofinnovations at lightning speed

(46:13):
that was being able to beexecuted by these entrepreneurs.
So we as government actuallyneed to provide a sandbox,
rather than slap them withregulations or, you know,
ecosystems that may hinder theirtrajectory to growth. We have to

(46:38):
work with them, and I'm happythat there are some challenges,
obviously, with the cycle offundraising and the winter
intact. But I would say thesecombinations the size of the
market, the policy of thegovernment, the absence of

(47:00):
government and also the growthof the economy would be the
contributing factor, and theintroductions of new technology
and the entrepreneurial spiritsof the founders and entrepreneur
are really the engine thatprovides the massive growth in
the startup scene in Indonesia?

Dina Sherif (47:22):
Yeah. So then I want to ask you now, out of
government, and you're nowthinking about investing in tech
heavily and really supportingthese, this new generation of
entrepreneurs, how do you wantthe ecosystem in Indonesia to
evolve. What are youraspirations?

Minister Uno (47:45):
I would like to see the startups that this scene
that we're seeing would have abetter chance to scale. And I

(48:06):
would like better access toinformation, better access to
trainings, the upscaling, reSkilling and new scalings that
they need to do. We were pushinglifelong learning. So all these
entrepreneurs would like keepgoing and learning and going

(48:27):
like a pit stop every now andthen to retool themselves and
have like timeouts, wherebyeverybody like a football game.
Everybody would then shareexchange knowledge and
strategies and as a team inIndonesia now I am picking the

(48:48):
side of the private sectors. Ithink private sectors can
contribute probably nine timesmore, pretty much, like tourism,
contributes six times more jobsthan every dollar invested in
other sectors. I think privatesectors now would do the heavy
lifting to create good qualityjobs. So the government needs to

(49:11):
complement that with good policymaking to provide a better
ecosystems, to provide betterinvestment climate to and the
banking sectors to provideaccess to funding, and more and
more micro, small, mediumenterprises could create
economic opportunities whenyou're able to deliver all these

(49:35):
parameters that that would beneeded for for the business to
grow.

Dina Sherif (49:41):
Yeah, I guess the question I have, you know,
you've traveled across theworld, obviously, you're, you're
extremely well traveled in yourown region. Somehow, the world
has created all these labels forwhere we come from. Know, and
somehow we get lumped into thesebuckets. But at the same time, I

(50:07):
see that for our markets totruly prosper, we need to see
much deeper integration acrossour markets, and it's extremely
difficult for right now, for anIndonesian entrepreneur to say,
Oh, I'm going to scale toAfrica, or for a Nigerian

(50:28):
entrepreneur to say, I'm goingto scale to Southeast Asia, we
have not opened up spaces forour ecosystems to connect and
for our markets to better serveeach other. And I say this with
and you know this with the fullunderstanding that we can really

(50:49):
call our markets the majoritypopulation markets right now, so
the largest percentage ofconsumers in the world and
incoming consumers in the worldare going to be in Southeast
Asia, in Africa and and SouthAsia as well, as well as certain
parts of Latin America. But yet,we have not integrated our

(51:10):
markets for our entrepreneurs tobe able to easily scale from
Indonesia to Brazil and fromBrazil to Nigeria, Nigeria to
Egypt and so forth and so on, asan investor, but also as a
former policy maker. What can wedo? And I'm not just saying you,
we, collectively, all of us, whoare really passionate about the

(51:33):
significance of entrepreneurshipand venture building for our
economies to continue to thriveand for the people in our
countries to be able to havedignified livelihoods and high
quality jobs. How can we betterintegrate like what is? What is
stopping us and why are we alltrapped in our colonial legacies

(51:56):
of division?

Minister Uno (51:59):
I visited I visited Egypt in when I was
still in between jobs in 2020,before I was appointed Minister,
right

Dina Sherif (52:13):
before COVID. You loved it, right? I

Minister Uno (52:16):
loved it, but that was right in the middle of
COVID. So I was shocked, becausethis is the second largest
economy in Africa. It's one ofthe first country that
recognized Indonesiaindependence. It's one of the

(52:39):
largest populations of Muslims,similar culture. And we have
1000, 10s of 1000 Indonesiansgoing to school,

Dina Sherif (52:49):
right? We had so many in Al Azhar, Al Azhar, and
also in Cairo University, in

Minister Uno (52:54):
Cairo University, and we have similar, similarity
of culture. And a lot of tightrelationship, but Indonesia's
trade to Egypt is less than 2%and it has been flat, not

(53:19):
growing. You love coffee. Weproduce coffee, but the type of
coffee that you guys consume arenon from not a lot from
Indonesia, food energy. We buy alot of raw material for our
cement industries, but we arenot tapping into the potentials,

(53:41):
so much so that we don't have,at that time, connectivity. I
have to fly to somewhere else toget to somewhere else. I mean,
now then I made it a point. Weneed to get better connected.
Yeah. So Egypt air now fly toIndonesia. There's a direct

(54:04):
flight to direct flight toJakarta. Secondly, we have more
Indonesian restaurants in Cairoand other parts of Egypt, and we
love Egyptian food. O Mali.
We're not going

Dina Sherif (54:19):
to tell that story.
We're not going to test thestory, and I can tell the story
on the podcast.

Minister Uno (54:24):
We have also a closer trade, because trade will
start, and when you trade, thenext thing that follows is
investments. That's right, whenyour investments starts pouring
in, then you have opportunitiesaround the supply chain. So this

(54:45):
is something that I think weneed to work better, deliver
better. You know, starting withconnectivity, with
infrastructures, invest inevents. That would put together
Egyptians, great entrepreneurs,with Indonesians, entrepreneurs,

(55:08):
but not just B to B, but g to g,communities to communities. And
I think many more Indonesianswould love to visit Egypt on
their way to Umrah, maybe, and alot more Egyptians would like to
visit Indonesia, to not only fornot

Dina Sherif (55:29):
only for tourism, but for investment, grow and

Minister Uno (55:33):
grow. And some of the big companies in the world
is from Egypt, and they are opento invest in Indonesia. So I
think the cycle will be likethat. And I managed to focus is
this, Egypt and Indonesia, butthere are a lot of other things,
like Latin America. We are nottrading with Latin America that
much, although we are inconstant need of cattle

(55:54):
supplies, but we are not tappingthat particular operation, or
even Africa, right and orAfrica, and Africa is the
fastest growing region in termsof growth,

Dina Sherif (56:10):
and six of the largest fastest growing are
there. It's

Minister Uno (56:14):
a great opportunities for us.

Dina Sherif (56:16):
So I'm going to ask you, as an investor, as a former
entrepreneur. Well, really,you're never a former
entrepreneur. You're always anentrepreneur. Once you're an
entrepreneur, you're forever.
It's forever going you bring iteverywhere you go. You know, I
do the same here at the center.
I have a very, you know, extremeentrepreneurial spirit can be a
bit taxing for people, but, youknow, it is who I am. But the

(56:38):
question is, like, what here atthe center, we're always saying
integration, integration. Weneed to see deeper integration.
But what are like two things youthink we should do to start
pushing for our ecosystems? Sothe if we're just going to take
it from an investor lens, how dowe get risk capital players to

(57:00):
tell entrepreneurs from growthmarkets that it's time for you
to scale to other growthmarkets.

Minister Uno (57:09):
This is what we experience when we are looking
at not just Indonesia, but aregion like Southeast Asia.
First, I would say, you, youasked for two

Dina Sherif (57:24):
things, two things, two the most important things, I

Minister Uno (57:27):
think I would I would pivot back to dare, to
take risk. You need the abilityto look at other markets and
accept the risk that it thatthat is present, but navigate

(57:51):
that risk in order for us to beable to understand the market
and tap the opportunities there,we've did it when we invested in
other markets outside Indonesia,and that could be done, but you
need entrepreneurial that havecourage, entrepreneurs that

(58:11):
would be courageous enough toleave the comfort zone and go
beyond and go beyond. And thishas been shown in the past, and
trade would be a good way tobecause investments, you are
risking your your capital. Butwhen you trade and you see
possibility, there's alwaysopportunities for you to to

(58:33):
invest your capital down theroad. Secondly, I would say it
go back to the entrepreneurialorientations of proactivity.
You, you would we call it in ourlanguage, sila to Rahim. Well,
we

Dina Sherif (58:53):
have that in our language, siletter, Rahim. Of
course,

Minister Uno (58:57):
I think we need to double down on our silat Rahim,
because silat Rahim willincrease your the likelihood of
that you live longer. This isaccording to the science. And
actually, we were always told byour elderly that when you

(59:20):
network, you increase thepossibility of you to create
wealth. So I would sayopportunities for us to to
explore, opportunities to lookat investments, look at trade,
and learn from the best of thebest, learn from failures, and

(59:46):
create a network of like mindedpeople understanding what is the
latest and the greatest of eachmarket

Dina Sherif (59:55):
would be a good way to start. That's what we do here
in the center. We create.
Community of entrepreneurs fromaround the world and and we, we
say to them, you need to giveeach other access. You need to
help each other get into eachother's markets. And when we
started the foundry fellowshipfor Africa, and in my mind, you
know, obviously the foundryfellowship is for more advanced

(01:00:20):
stage entrepreneurs in Africa.
At the very core of it was, howcan we start seeing African
entrepreneurs, or entrepreneursfrom different countries in
Africa? That's a more preciseway of saying it, start seeing
other African countries asmarkets to grow to. And you

(01:00:42):
know, I would say that we'rethis is our fourth year of this
fellowship, and this communityhas gotten stronger and stronger
every year, and these fellowsnow a take pride in the
countries they come from. Theybelieve in the potential, and

(01:01:02):
they are now helping each other,and they're exposing each other
to each other as Marcus, andthey're telling each other this,
you're Nigerians. Is how youaccess Egypt. You're from
Senegal. This is how you accessKenya, and so forth and so on.
And you know, there is enormouspower in creating communities of
entrepreneurs in parts of theworld where community was not

(01:01:28):
really the desired outcome,right? That type of
connectivity. So we have to pushand create that. So I want to
ask you, you have also been ahuge advocate for AI and
generative AI, and that's likethe topic of the day. The these
days we have to, you know, it'sthe topic of the day. And you
know, you, you, you statedpreviously, I didn't find this,

(01:01:53):
but according to Donovan, yousaid, AI and automation can
either be a great equalizer or agreat divider, and it depends on
how we implement it. And rightnow, we're seeing converse,
endless conversations around AIand the potential for AI in

(01:02:14):
global growth markets, and thepotential that AI could have on
productivity. But there's alsothis fear, so we're all dancing,
you know, there's like a danceof, do we embrace? Do we step
away? So, you know, what is theway we can ensure that AI
becomes an equalizer rather thana divider? And from your

(01:02:38):
perspective, how can we use AIto create greater prosperity,
but prosperity that is equitableand also inclusive.

Minister Uno (01:02:50):
Positive mindset, AI would be a divider if you
have a negative mindset thesesets of and it happened already
in the past, and histories haverevealed and told adolescents

(01:03:11):
that when innovations come intoplace, you need to embrace it.
You need to make sure that theseinnovations would be a positive
or will give a positive impactsto what you do. And this is
where I would say quadruple P,public, private people

(01:03:35):
partnership. This four P's wouldbe needed, because we are only
at the beginning of, you know,think of this as the early years
of the internet, whereby, in anew era, you know, I remember
sending emails to my boss, and Igot scolded at that time. I was

(01:03:56):
still a professional. I said,You should fax it. I said, But I
already sent an email, you know,and and later on, nobody would
know now, what is a fax machinelooks like. So AI is gonna stay,
and for here to stay, and thisis going to really impact every

(01:04:21):
facet of our life. I believethat it would be a positive
things if people are having apositive mindset about this and
discuss, what are the risk, whatare the challenges, what could
be done with AI better and whatwe should steer away from

(01:04:42):
applications, the ethical issueabout AI also, you know now,
with the concept of higherlearning, the Institute of well,
this education framework thatneeds to be changed. Much. So I
think I we, we have anotherword, like sila torahi. We have

(01:05:09):
hustnuts on, you know, SunChristmas on. Is that right?
That's

Dina Sherif (01:05:13):
what we say. And it's a it's Arabic husband, we
need to give the benefit,benefit of the doubt,

Minister Uno (01:05:20):
so I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt
through careful monitoring andevaluating that this AI would
actually be able to deliver amuch better society going
forward. I

Dina Sherif (01:05:39):
think we just need to learn how to use it and think
about how to integrate it forthe greater good and and really
dance with these new andadvanced technologies that are
emerging at an extremely fastpace. Yeah,

Minister Uno (01:05:54):
learn to be patient, learn to accept

Dina Sherif (01:05:57):
and learn to learn and learn and not be afraid.
Learn to

Minister Uno (01:06:00):
fail. This is very, very and it's better to
fail early as entrepreneur, youwould understand absolutely
because when you fail much laterat your entrepreneurial stage,
it is much costlier and morepainful. Yeah, but if you fail

(01:06:21):
early, you learn faster, and youavoid the mistakes that you
should be able to circumvent andto navigate your journey better.
Well, you

Dina Sherif (01:06:31):
know what we say about failure? Failure is only
failure if you haven't learned.
Yes, right?

Minister Uno (01:06:37):
Well, I would say, in my experience failure is
actually staircase to success.
So every step of the staircaseis actually built around
failures. Yeah, I

Dina Sherif (01:06:55):
totally agree. I love it. Okay, so every podcast,
we dedicate a question toDonovan, who is a producer, and
he always has, you know this,his life is storytelling in the
digital space. And you knowhe's, he's a creative he's a
poet. You should go attend oneof his poetry nights here in

(01:07:16):
Boston when you're in town. Butand his, you know, his
background comes from thedigital media space. And he has
a specific question for youabout the Creator, creative
economy and storytelling. And hesaid in a recent interview, you
said Indonesia's biggest assetis not just as natural beauty,
but its people, theircreativity, their

(01:07:37):
entrepreneurial spirit and theirability to turn ideas into
reality. And in the past decade,we have seen Indonesian creators
like Raya ricas, who I didn'tknow about and I was texting, he
was like, Who? And I had to lookher up. And frost diamond become
almost like cultural ambassadorsto 10s of millions worldwide for

(01:07:58):
Indonesia. So opportunities forvoices from the region are
growing, and in 2024 the digitalcontent industry contributed
roughly 54 billion US dollars tothe global creative economy, and
it's only projected to grow. SoDonovan's question to you is,
how do you see this evolving,and what is your hope for

(01:08:22):
Indonesia's digital storytellingspace, and what new economic
opportunities do you think itwill create for Indonesia and
beyond a

Minister Uno (01:08:34):
creative economy?
Did I get that right, Donovan,that's a very good question,
Donovan, and I'd like to visitsome of your poetry reading
sessions. Creative Economy isdefined in the law number 24 of
2019 in Indonesia. That consistsabout 17 sub sectors, including

(01:08:55):
movie, film animations, culinaryfashions and so on and so forth,
including gaming. Now, if youlook at this collective sectors
and sub sectors, Indonesia'screative economy contribute to
around 8% of its GDP derivedfrom Creative Economy and about

(01:09:16):
25 million people, $27 billionof exports, close to $100
billion of economic value added.
That puts Indonesia on the map,on the map, and number three in
the WORLD NEWS, Number One isthe United States of America.

(01:09:38):
Wow. So USA with roughly about12 is percent of its GDP derived
from Creative Economy. Second isSouth Korea, with around 10, 11%
third is Indonesia, and third isIndonesia. Now, who knew that?
Because this is fact, and I. Webelieve that the strength of our

(01:10:03):
creative economy lies with thecreativity of the people. So you
mentioned about story. There'smillions of stories to be told.
I told my team. You know,picture tells 1000 words, but
videos reveals millions ofstories, and because of our

(01:10:26):
richness of our culture, thereare so many stories to tell. We
call it storynomics. Soeconomics, empowerment based on
storytelling, and because of our700 plus ethnic groups, we have
rich in tradition and cultures.
This could be turned intoeconomic opportunities. And when

(01:10:52):
you talk about digital 100 50million Indonesians play games.
But the opportunity is there forIndonesian publisher and game
developer to introduce a reallyworldwide Indonesian stories

(01:11:13):
that would be put into games yousaw the movie Avatar, and there
are stories about people wholive in the sea that was based
on a bajo ethnic groups inIndonesia that basically they

(01:11:39):
could dive free, dive withoutany equipment, for five minutes,
holding their breath for five tosix minutes. And that was made
into movies that is very, veryworld famous now. So I'm very
optimistic that through digitalcreations, plus AI and many

(01:12:01):
other interventions that youknow the sky's the limit.
Indonesia's creative economy isgoing to be very powerful, and
at the end of the day, not onlydeliver the number of
contributions to GDP to aboutmaybe 10 to 12% but also create

(01:12:26):
good quality jobs. Many ofIndonesian writers would make it
to Hollywood, because you wouldknow that the creative economy
in America have been able toproduce Hollywood, country
music, jazz, hip hop and so onand so forth. Korea now follow

(01:12:46):
suit with their K Pop, withtheir Korean drama beats, Afro
beats. But very few people knowabout Indonesian musics of Don
dudes, I think risky, like damndudes, but because it has a
certain beat that even thoughyou're sad or gloomy, you hear

(01:13:07):
the sound and you start movingyour body.

Dina Sherif (01:13:12):
True, you know, I bet I don't. When I'm sad and
gloomy, there's certain music,

Minister Uno (01:13:17):
no. And you know, you mentioned swift nomics,
Taylor Swift, not your

Dina Sherif (01:13:25):
Swifty. I am because you're Swifty.

Minister Uno (01:13:28):
I although Casey lost last week, but and Kelsey
was very sad. But you know,every great stories would need
an end anyway. When she was inthe region, she proposed to
Indonesia to have a concert inin Jakarta, but we could not

(01:13:51):
provide a venue. And theeconomic package that would
incentivize her to to come toIndonesia, so Singapore took it
for six days. Now, Indonesiawould have the same equivalent
of Taylor Swift in the next fiveto 10 years. That would be at
the world stage, like Egypt havewhat mikulsum

Dina Sherif (01:14:14):
was way back.
Continues to be a legend, and

Minister Uno (01:14:20):
she continues to be a legend, even up till now.
So this type of creativeartistry and creative economic
initiatives would be massive,massive injections to not only
Indonesian economy, but also theregion. Yeah.

Dina Sherif (01:14:45):
So you know you've and you know this, this past
hour has been wonderful, right?
Extremely rich, and you've gonethrough many things, success,
failure, public service.
Successful business now alsosignificant investor, and by any

(01:15:06):
standards, people wouldcategorize you as successful,
but I think you're way more thanyour titles and your
achievements. There's somethingdeeper there, and now you're
starting a new chapter in yourlife, and we don't know how
that's going to evolve yet, butyou're on a new path. What has

(01:15:30):
been your guiding principlethroughout

Minister Uno (01:15:35):
the guiding principles that have pretty much
be the North Star is basicallythe notion of hoerrunas and
Fauci is a Hadith. I don't knowhow you translate it, but

Dina Sherif (01:15:59):
doing good for people,

Minister Uno (01:16:01):
right? The best of the people is the people who do
good for people who wouldbenefit other peoples. So I'm
measuring my impact very nowthat I'm outside the government,
I'm more flexible. I have moretime. I could be more focused in
terms of the economicempowerment. So I'd like to give

(01:16:26):
and contribute to providingeconomic opportunities to
Indonesians, to entrepreneurs,to Micro, Small and Medium
Enterprises, how they couldreach prosperity through
economic empowerment and makesure that they would be able to

(01:16:51):
contribute. I've done this inthe past. I work with I don't
have any problem working withany stakeholders or party
affiliations. I've delivered,I've proven that I could deliver
by in terms of creating 120,000jobs when I was in in the city

(01:17:12):
of Jakarta government, and 4.4million new jobs in tourism and
creative economy ministry. So Ithink this is something that
that guides me, but there are alot of unfinished jobs. For
instance, because Donovan askedme a questions. It is my term.

(01:17:36):
It is my turn to ask Donovan aquestion. Now, okay, at least I

Dina Sherif (01:17:42):
went to Donovan.
You know, I've had other peopleon this podcast who have said,
let me turn the table on you.
Dina, question, I'm happy for itto go to Donovan.

Minister Uno (01:17:50):
I would want to ask Donovan, because we are in
the creative economy, and youmentioned digital. But name one
Indonesian dish that you wouldknow from your experience. Can
you name one Indonesian dish?

Unknown (01:18:11):
Indonesian? No, but my family is my born Thai when I
was raised by Filipinos and soIndonesia,

Minister Uno (01:18:17):
not specifically, right? See, this is the failure
of the previous Minister ofTourism and creative economy.
We've we're really, really underdelivering of Indonesia, food
diplomacy, Gastro diplomacy. Inthe past, people travel 1000s of

(01:18:39):
miles through big waves to findspices in Indonesia. Manhattan
was actually a trade between theBrits and the Dutch that
involved an island somewhere inthe eastern part of Indonesia

(01:18:59):
that was given to the Dutch. Andthe Dutch gave this island to
the Brits. So people know aboutIndonesian spices, but not
Indonesian food. Thailand andFilipino have better in the

(01:19:20):
world stage in their food scene.
I mean, Thai food is everywherehere, but not any specific
Indonesian restaurant in Boston.
And we have two 80 millionpeople. So that proves my point
that we are still having a lotof homework. And part of the

(01:19:43):
country, so we started thisprogram called Indonesia spice
up the world in the middle partof my tenure as ministry, I hope
the new minister would continueso that Donovan will have a
chance to eat Indonesian food atan Indonesian restaurant in
Boston. Yeah. And top knownIndonesian food is actually Nasi

(01:20:06):
Goreng. And

Dina Sherif (01:20:07):
what's in Nasi Gore it's a fried rice.

Minister Uno (01:20:11):
And the second one is Gado. Gado Gado Gado Gado
Gado is salad with peanut sauce.
And third is satay is a beefchicken skewers. Yeah,

Dina Sherif (01:20:26):
that we know. So a top three, well, we're waiting
for the Indonesian restaurant inBoston. We need it. So when I
asked you this question aboutyour guiding principle, you
mentioned a hadith. And so Iwant you to talk to me about
faith. Um, you know, for me,faith plays an extremely

(01:20:49):
important role in my life. It'sit's what has kept me going
through some of the mostdifficult times, but it's also
what has kept me humble duringmy most successful of times. And
you and I haven't known eachother for long, but I know that
faith plays a role in your life.
So talk to us about faith.

Minister Uno (01:21:13):
I'm a late comer when it comes to faith, I found
Islam actually while I wasstudying here. I grew up getting
educations from Christianschools, and then Catholic all
Boys High School. So my exposureis every now and then my dad,

(01:21:38):
who's who's Muslim, but moresort of like, not that religious
Muslim, every now and then andmy mom sent some ulamas to Teach

(01:21:59):
me to read Koran, but I'm notthat really been that I have not
been good in following thatorder, so I skipped classes, and
I really focus on my passion forbasketball. I played a lot of
basketball during high schooland but when I was here in the

(01:22:23):
United States and in the lonelyplace of Wichita, Kansas,

Dina Sherif (01:22:29):
and later on, imagine Wichita being a lonely
place. And later

Minister Uno (01:22:33):
on in Washington, DC, I started reading Quran. And
then i i found through, and I'mextremely, extremely grateful
that I met my wife who is morebiased and more religious, to
teach me more about Islam, andit has been basically the path

(01:23:00):
that that I've been taking moreand more, and then we perform
Umrah and Hajj, and it'ssomething that even take a much
more important role in our life.
So I would say I'm a late comer,because not until I'm in the 20s
that I embrace this. MostIndonesians have embraced it

(01:23:25):
very early on. But, you know, Iembraced it, and you know, I
don't think any of this ispossible without Allah
interventions even dropping oneleaf, he has a command over it,
and I think we should be verygrateful that we are giving the

(01:23:51):
chance to be able to givepositive impact to our
community. Yes, 100%

Dina Sherif (01:24:01):
so my dad was, you know, also very spiritual. And I
grew up with a father who spokeabout death a lot, and I think,
you know, it took me a long timeto understand, you know why? And

(01:24:22):
I think a big part of that wasbecause there's, there's a
moment where we will all departfrom this world. And for you and
I, we believe that we will goback to our Creator. And he
would always say, between thatmoment of birth and death is a
really teeny, tiny window, andyou have to make it count. And

(01:24:49):
you know, I would remember, wewould always go my sister and I,
especially my late brother, notso much, but definitely would be
like, this, Life is so unfair.
And he would be like. Like thatis life. How are you going to
respond to that unfair? That'swhat's going to make your life
count. But he would always say,you have a small window and you
need to make it count. And mymom would always say, wherever

(01:25:12):
you could help somebody, youneed to help. And I would always
watch her. People would call herall the time. Can you help me do
this? Can you help me do that?
Can you connect me? This pursuesalso in government. And whenever
she could help, she would alwayshelp. So this is how I was
raised. But most importantly,this idea of death is imminent,

(01:25:34):
and we don't know when it willcome. So what are you going to
do with your life? Was hasalways been top of mind for me,
so my question, my last questionfor you is it was really
beautiful to walk in to thefloor above us and to see this
room packed with students fromacross the city coming because

(01:25:57):
they see you As a role model.
And it was clear that they theydeeply respected what you had to
say. But when your time comesand at the end of all of it,
what is the legacy that you wantto have left behind? How is it
that you want people to rememberpas and de uno?

Minister Uno (01:26:24):
There's always a question when you're about to
bury a body, what is thisperson? Is he good? Her or not,
and everybody would normallysaid her, so I would really want

(01:26:46):
to be remember that I'm a

Dina Sherif (01:26:49):
doer of good, DOER of good. Thank you so much for
joining us on this podcast, andI'm deeply honored and inspired
and ritzy, wasn't wrong when hesaid, You're a very special
person with a lot to share, andI hope that you continue to be a

(01:27:10):
part of our community here atthe center, and we look forward
to seeing what this next chapterof your life is going to bring
To the next generation ofamazing entrepreneurs coming out
of Indonesia and your broaderregion, and I hope we can work
together to find deeperconnections between MIT
Indonesia and Southeast Asiamore more generally. So to our

(01:27:35):
audience, thank you forlistening or watching and stay
tuned for for what comes next.
We always have an amazing,amazing group of people who
joined this podcast, who aredeeply purpose driven, and we
are deeply grateful for that. So

Minister Uno (01:27:53):
I'm gonna subscribe to this. Yes, you
haven't subscribed yet, I thinkso we already subscribed. Don't
forget to share, like andcomment on this

Dina Sherif (01:28:07):
channel, absolutely and you can find our episodes on
Spotify, on Apple, on YouTube.
So please subscribe, share andalways give us feedback. We are
very happy to to to hear peopleyou want to hear next on this
podcast and stay purpose driven.

(01:28:28):
Thank you very much. Thank youso much.

Unknown (01:28:39):
You.