“Resilience Isn’t Survival; It’s Transformation”: A Conversation with Dr. Alaa Murabit

Episode Transcript
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Dina Sherif (00:10):
So welcome back to a legacy of purpose Podcast.
Today, I'm super excited towelcome Dr Alaa Murabit, a
physician, a global advocate, avisionary leader, someone I like
to call a close friend, but herjourney from founding the voices
of Libyan women to shapinginternational policy at the

(00:31):
United Nations and mostrecently, the Gates Foundation,
has redefined what radicalresilience and leadership mean
in our world today, perhapswhat's most important to me is
that I get to spend the nexthour with a dear friend who I
was just saying I'm extremelyproud of I deeply admire and

(00:51):
respect all the work that you'vedone over the past years. It's
just incredible. I met you. Ithink it must have been maybe 11
or 12 years ago, and what youhave accomplished in that time,
in just that short time, isnothing short of astounding. And

(01:12):
you've made such an incredibleimpact on the world. And your
impact spans health, women'srights, climate resilience, the
voice for women and religion. Ican go on and on, but I I love
the way everything you do isdone with courage, with
collaboration and extremecompassion for those who are not

(01:35):
always served in our society. SoI want to thank you for
everything that you do, and Iwant to welcome, you again to
our podcast, and I hope thateverybody listening finds this
conversation as inspiring as I'msure is going to be. So thank
you for joining us today. Thank

Dr. Alaa Murabit (01:51):
you for having me. I notice you, like very
purposefully, admitted that thefirst time we ever met, you had
been one of the judges for theAshoka fellowship, and I still
remember this. I was 22 yearsold. I was trying so hard to
impress you, and you wereinterviewing me, and I'm pretty
sure I started crying within thefirst five minutes, and I was

(02:12):
like, trying to be like women inpeace and security. And then you
were like, tell me what inspiresyou to do this. Tell me about
your parents. And I was like, ohmy goodness, we're

we're going there, we're going there. We got deep,
really fast, but, but, you know,speaking about your family,
incredible family that it is youwere, you were born into a
family with an additional 10siblings. You're born in Canada,
and you moved to Libya at anextremely difficult time, and

(02:41):
you entered medical school inLibya at the very young age of
15. I did not know that aboutyou. No, I didn't know that you
were that young when you wentinto medical school, and since
then, you've been on thisjourney to make the world a
better place. So I have twoquestions, or a couple
questions, that I want to askyou about your background. The

(03:04):
obvious one, how did yourupbringing with 10 siblings as
lividians in a small town inCanada? How did that impact your
journey and where you are today?
It's

an excellent question. I mean, I love that
you called them the additional10. You know, I'm

well, because you're a powerhouse. They met
all the other

10 they would so fundamentally disagree, and
they would be right toMashallah. They're all equally,
they're all incredible. But Ilove that, that I get to be the
subject here. No, it was so Iwas born in Saskatoon,
Saskatchewan, and and at thetime, I was born in the late
80s. At the time, it was quitehomogeneous. It's definitely
grown since then, but it wasquite homogeneous, and we were

(03:46):
kind of, very clearly one of thelarger families, and
particularly larger immigrantfamilies. My parents had come in
the early 80s from Libya toCanada, and I have five older
brothers and sisters and fiveyounger so I'm the perfect
middle and it was, I mean, itwas interesting. I never
actually appreciated, I think,having so many siblings until I

(04:08):
got older. When you're younger,you're, it's, it's, you're so
different. It's frustrating andand I think, very naturally as
I've gotten older, I'veappreciated that so many of the
things that fill my cup, be it,you know, like somebody I can
turn to for advice, somebody whowill kind of really put me in my
place when I need to be puttingalways gonna be your siblings,

(04:30):
always gonna and you have them,you don't even have to go
looking for it. So it wasinteresting. It meant that I had
kind of this already wellcultified tribe, tribe, yeah,
cultivated tribe. And it wasincredibly helpful and
challenging, because, you know,sometimes you do want to do
something and go and go rogue,and your siblings kind of hold
you accountable really quickly.
I think the benefit of that manysiblings is very quickly you

(04:53):
learn you can be multiplethings, and people have
different talents that are canbe. Very useful. So I was just
talking about my younger brotherAbdu. He's my mom's favorite,
favorite for the youngest,youngest boy and all the
youngest kids. My mom has manyfavorites. That's the first
Well, I mean, she has some. Shehas so many kids, but, but the

(05:13):
youngest ones hold a specialplace in her heart. Because,
like, you know, after 11 kids,you're They're leaving. So the
youngest boy and youngest girlhold a special place, as do the
oldest. And I knew growing up,if there was something in
particular I wanted, I could goto my oldest sister or my
youngest brother. You couldbuild alliances. You could
negotiate the cars. You couldkind of trade like, Okay, you
ask dad for this, and I'll askmom for this. And so

that was that's where you learned your
incredible negotiation skills. I

learned everything I know from my
siblings, truly, and everythingsince then from my family. I
would say, I've learnedeverything I know and since
then, it has been validated tome, or it has been, you know, I
have, I have additional evidencefrom professional experience,
but I learned everything I knowfrom my siblings when it comes
to negotiation or or or orAlliance building or compromise,

(06:05):
which I'm not very good at, andthey will agree with but I
learned everything I know frommy family. Beautiful,

beautiful. I love siblings too. They're wonderful.
I'm also lucky. I want to talkto you a little bit about Libya
and what it means to be Libyan,right? I've spent time with a
lot of time with you. I spendtime with your husband. You're
both Libyan. You're raisingchildren. You're bringing the
Libyan parts of you into that.
You went to Libya at a veryyoung age. You were 15, and you

(06:31):
know, Libya has been goingthrough some tough times, right?
What was it like to go tomedical school at the age of 15
in Libya as someone who had beenraised in Canada up until that
point? What was it that happenedin Libya that pushed you to say,

(06:52):
I need to shake up

Unknown (06:55):
healthcare systems?
Well,

it wasn't so it's interesting. I kind of I
knew I wanted to be a doctor ata really young age, because my
dad, my dad was a physicianassistant, a surgical assistant.
My sister went into medicalschool quite young. So I always
knew, and you know, when theytake you to take your kids to
work day and you're supposed toobserve from far away, I was the
kid who would like come so closethat they would have to get get

(07:19):
new scrubs on, new new equipmenton. So I knew I wanted to be a
physician. I particularlythought I wanted to be a
surgeon. And so when I finishedhigh school early in Canada,
there were only a few options Iwould have to because of my age.
Even with doing a four yearbachelor's degree, I probably
still wouldn't get in until Iwas a little older, because
there were more mature studentsand and you go through a

(07:41):
process. So I was thinking,Well, do I do I spend the next
four to eight years gettingdegrees until I can go into the
path I want, or do I just gointo the path I want elsewhere?
And my mom had moved to Libyathree years two, three years
earlier, so I was like, Okay,well, that's where I'll go. And
I had loved going to Libya as akid. I mean, you go when you're

(08:02):
seven and eight, it's beachesand ice cream, of course, great
beaches, great beaches anddelicious ice cream. And
everyone's so excited to seeyou, especially because they
know you're leaving in threeweeks. And when you move there
at 15, as a young lady, I thinkit's slightly different, because
you inherit the reality ofliving there and what that
means. And it's challengingbecause you don't actually know

(08:22):
the rules really. So for me, thevery first year was pre med, and
was kind of in within medicalschool. There they the first
year is Za daddy, so kind ofyour preliminary medical year,
and it was all in a to be, and Idid not know how to read and
write a to be well enough to bedoing tests in it. So I would, I
still remember at the time, thisis back in 2005 I would scan the

(08:44):
sheets. I would send them to mydad, who was still in Canada. He
would help me translate them,and then he would email them
back to me. Oh, God, it was sucha process. This is before
WhatsApp and all of the easierways to communicate. And so it
was genuinely a it wasn't justme. It was more of like a family
effort because of because Ineeded to be able to learn and
do this and and so I don't Idon't identify medical school or

(09:06):
moving to Libya as significantlychallenging. I think I identify
it as feeling accountable, likeI felt accountable to do well
because I had made the decision.
I knew I wanted medicine, and Inow was in a position where I
needed assistance because Icouldn't speak the language well
enough. When I got into firstyear, it was all in English. And
at that point it was kind of my,my show to run, yeah, but that

(09:29):
that first year was, was, was,was a challenging one, and then
learning the norms and deciding,for most of for most of it, that
I didn't actually want to engagewith them, and my parents didn't
move to the capital. A lot ofpeople, when they move back to
their home country will move tothe capital. They'll put their
kids all in English schools. Andwe moved to Zawiya, which is 30

(09:50):
minutes away, but it's a muchsmaller city that my parents, my
dad, is originally from, andmuch more insular. And so you
also had kind. Of that reality,which I you know, Canada is not
known for those kind of familyor tribal affiliations in the
same way where it ends up beingincredibly important. So I will
say I never thought of shakingup health systems. I thought I

(10:14):
would be a physician, a surgeon,and that was my intent and
purpose, up until, I would say,close to when the revolution
broke out. And that was reallywhen it felt like, Okay, I'm
seeing all of these people,particularly women. And it was
particularly women for me, whowere the backbone of the

(10:36):
revolution, who were making suremedicine got to the front line,
who were smuggling things out ofpharmacies, who were cleaning
clothes, who were deliveringfood, who were traveling with
gasoline, which was, despitebeing a very oil rich country,
was actually scarce at the time,very scarce, and so all of and
really putting themselves atrisk. And yet, once the

(10:57):
conversation started pivoting tobecoming a political
conversation where power wasreally on the table. Women were
entirely excluded. And so forme, it wasn't necessarily health
systems, it was more, how do youcreate inclusive systems that
reflect the people that buildnot the people that just get to
contribute from them or kind ofbenefit from them, but the

(11:18):
people that actually contributeto them, and oftentimes that's
women, and they weren't, theyweren't at the table. So that
became kind of the mission.

And then you founded voices of Libyan women,
right? As the Libyan revolutionwas ending, was beginning,

or you did at the beginning? We did it at the
beginning, yeah, so we did it atthe beginning, and then at the
end. So voice of Libyan womenwas founded. Voice of Libyan
women was founded in March of2011 so the month after, right
after, right after the so it wasright after, and Zawiya was the
first country in the West torise up. So it was at that point

(11:56):
Ben Ghazi had and country, sorryfor city in the west, to rise up
and and was quickly retaken bygovernment forces. But it was
right when the revolutionstarted. And then following
that, in November of 2011 thatwas when we did the one voice
conference, which was kind of areally big bringing together all

(12:17):
of these advocates andactivists, professionals from
different, you know, technicalleaders, and with the new
political, new political partiesand the emerging transition
government to say, Okay, how dowe actually ensure that this
doesn't get put to the wayside?
And this is part of policy, butwe started from the onset, and
actually by July, August, haddone the women's charter, where

(12:38):
we had traveled to many othercities to be able to collect
some of their some of their kindof input that they would want
reflected in the Constitution.
And that went into the nextyear, because as cities became
accessible, we went there so

so in 2014 that is actually when you and I met,
because that's when you werenominated as an Ashoka Fellow,
and I was on your judging panel,and that was in Egypt. And the
time, at the time, I was stillin Egypt, and of course, we had
a very moving conversation aboutthe story of why you created

(13:18):
that organization. I know therewas one particular story that
impacted you deeply, but youalso you. There was an insight
that you shared that Donovan andI found really interesting. You
said, outrage is mobilizing, buthope is sustaining, and that is
the piece we're often missing.
People are outraged. They march,they mobilize and they engage to

(13:40):
sustain that we need the hopethat is a system that can be
changed. And you know, Iremember even when I interviewed
you for the showcafe Fellowship,I was completely taken back by
the incredible wisdom that youhad, even at that very young
age. What? What was like theexact moment that really pushed

(14:03):
you to take action and tomobilize on behalf of women in
Libya?

I think initially I was mobilized by
rage. I think that's why rage isso powerful. Anger is an
incredibly powerful instigator.
I saw some of my own friendsdeeply impacted. I The story I
had told you was actually aboutthe loss of a good friend of
mine and and so for me, it wasand, and it wasn't unilateral.
There was a community of women Ihad I had classmates in medical

(14:38):
school. We were in our fifthyear of medical school, who were
uncomfortable. Going to thehospital, but still had to,
because we were told that if wedidn't show up our minutes, our
files would be thrown out, andwe and so for me, it wasn't
unilateral. It was a recognitionthat if we didn't do something,
I felt like we would be in aworse spot than we were before,
and at that point. Yeah, I stillremember we had been sitting

(15:00):
down and we had been draftingwhat would become, you know,
Vlw, the voice of Libyan women.
It was like this three pageessay, and we had put into into
Google at the time, like, how doyou make sure women get rights?
And they gave us all these unframeworks, and there was all of
this, and it was like, okay, butin conflict. And I still
remember there was a one of thearticles had said, Actually,

(15:23):
conflict is a window ofopportunity, because you can
kind of create new norms.
Everything shifts in thosemoments. And so I was like,
Well, if we don't take advantageof this, we're never going to
get to take advantage of it. AndI do think I credit a lot,
actually, to being younger andmore naive, because I had never
engaged in politicalorganization. I hadn't become
cynical yet, yeah, well, but Ididn't I had never studied it. I
never knew it. My assumption wassimilar to in medicine, like, if

(15:46):
you have data and people see thedata, people will act based on
data. Like, it was very much thescience of activism or advocacy,
like, and I did not understandyet at that point deeply enough,
yet power dynamics, and why,even with the best of evidence,
you will not be able to garnerpolitical will, and why there is
so much resistance. None ofthat. I was like, no, no, we

(16:08):
just need to show proof. Andpeople will change. Policies
will change. You know, you showwomen's agency means that you
have more economic opportunityand growth and things will
improve. And that, to me, wasthe kind of The Spark. And then
I think what helped was there'sa resolution called 1325, which
is women, peace and security.
And it has flaws, and a lot ofpeople will argue with its

(16:29):
implementation. And frankly,there's a lot of things that the
UN could do better. But what itdoes provide is it allows for
you, if your country has signedon to it, to take it to
leadership and say, hey, you'veyou've actually said you support
this, and yet you're not. And sothat became one of the tools I
used to be able to say, okay,and it's anchored on women's
inclusion in conflict, womenpeace and security. So how do

(16:52):
you ensure that women haveleadership roles? How do you
engage women in a political andtransitional process? How do you
also recognize their uniquevulnerabilities? So that became
the sustaining part, because theoutrage was this couldn't happen
and should not happen to us. Ididn't have a picture of what
could look like. And so thatframework was like, oh, okay, I
can ask for these things, right?
And if I can get closer to thosethings, at least, where on a

(17:12):
pathway of progress, right? Andthat will that's what got me
kind of much more involved inthe movement. And that's, I
think, one of the things thatreally made me choose, for lack
of a better word, whether itwould be, you know, the day to
day practice of medicine or theday to day work of kind of
advocate and systems change andthings like that, yeah.

Well, by the age of 25 you had successfully
negotiated and passed a numberof resolutions through the
United Nations Security Council,and you actually became
appointed as the UN High Levelcommissioner on health,
employment and economic growth.
And, you know, I rememberreading that announcement, and I
was like, Wow. You know, thatwas such a short time between,

(18:03):
you know, when you became anAshoka Fellow, and then when you
became appointed as a UN HighLevel Commissioner. And I was, I
mean, it's such a big jump. AndI was so impressed, because I
remember also, I was nominatedand chosen to be a un SDG

(18:23):
pioneer, and I remember seeingyou at the UN thinking, how far
you've come in such a shorttime. So what led you know you
went from being from medicalschool to starting this
organization to advocacy at thehighest levels of the UN and in
many conversations, you talkabout the need, not just for

(18:47):
Band Aid solutions, but for realsystemic change, which you just
mentioned, systemic change thatwould allow for women's equity,
climate resilience, policyreform. This is MIT, and we talk
about systems change all thetime, and we teach classes on
systems dynamics. And here atthe center, we have an actual
scholar in residence whospecialize in systems change

(19:09):
entrepreneurship. People defineit differently. What is what
does all of that mean to you interms of systems change when you
are talking to all of these highlevel people at the UN who many
people perceive to be arelatively ineffective

(19:29):
organization.

Oh, yeah. So the, I think the interesting
thing there is that the kind ofpathway to so not necessarily
the jump so with Vlw and Ianchor it on everything on the
newer campaign. Frankly, at onepoint I had been we were doing
these workshops on women'seconomic empowerment and agency.
We were doing workshops with theMinistry of Labor. We were doing

(19:55):
stuff on women's health andhealth access. We were doing
women peace and security. Andyet, I started. Noticing we have
the same people coming from thesame families who I think were
already bought into what I wassaying. And so it was kind of
like, how do we actually getpeople who disagree with us to
show up? And so I startedasking, and people would say,
like, Oh, it's great for you,even, even like extended family
members, like, the work you'redoing is wonderful for you, but,

(20:15):
you know, not for not for mydaughter. And it increasingly
became a conversation that wasanchored in the in the
perception that what I wassaying was opposed to Islamic
teachings. And that was what Ithink, for me, is systems
change, or kind of the anchoringof all of the work, after which
was, at that time, a lot of thekind of global donors, and, you

(20:40):
know, European and Westernorganizations were like, We
don't want to talk aboutreligion. Why are you talking
about religion? And a lot of thelocal organizations, and we're
like, no, no, don't do this.
This only empowers, you know,misused and manipulated rhetoric
and and I found that such aninteresting case, because I
think in order for you to trulytransform systems, you actually
have to be able to negotiatepower, yeah, and I didn't have

(21:00):
that as a women, as a youngwomen's rights organization. So
what we did do was we actuallyworked with the Ministry of
religion, and we said, Listen,we need your logo on these
billboards so people understandthat we're not, you know, cherry
picking text. And they they werelike, Okay, let's those are
actual Islamic texts. Those are,you can find them in the holy
book, the Quran. Those areHadith or sayings of the
Prophet, and then being able toleverage those. And what we did

(21:23):
was, because of the kind ofgeographic organization of
Libya, it's similar to ifsomebody from New York went down
to like Texas and startedtalking about values and norms,
there's a huge amount of powerin somebody local to you who you
know, who you trust. And so wecreated a very kind of
federalized system of advocacy,where every city created its own

(21:45):
city team. They gave it a name.
So Benazir was in Manara, whichmeans the lighthouse, because
that was a well known symbol tothem. And everybody had their
own name. These teams across thecountry would then go and do
advocacy in their localcommunities, and it was made up
of their teachers, a formerpolitics like former

(22:05):
representatives of men and womenand would go to create a
movement, a movement. Andhonestly, the campaign was
excellent in that it wasn't justinformation. But then we did
surveys to get in, to get data,because data is hard to get,
legitimate data, especially inconflict, is really challenging
to get, and you operate off andon assumption. And so from the
nud campaign, that ended upbeing really pivotal, because

(22:27):
numerous other countries andorganizations replicated the
methodology, and I and we usedthat methodology throughout some
of our consultations on women,peace and security. So my first
real introduction to the UN wasactually as a global advisor for
the 15th anniversary of thewomen peace and security agenda.
And that was how I first gotinvolved. And it was those

(22:47):
resolutions that I couldinfluence and engage on because
of that lived experience. Andthen from there, I got involved
with the UN SustainableDevelopment Goals, or what would
become them, really influencingthe peace and justice and strong
institutions work. And thecommissioner really came from a
lot of conversations around ifwe really want to talk about
health and health access, we doactually need to talk about the

(23:08):
gender dynamic of it, both interms of gendered implications
for health, but also accessopportunity, especially as it
relates to economic growth. Sothat was kind of the pathway.
And I do think it all startedwith a conversation where the
assumption wasn't that peoplewho disagreed with me were
wrong, but an assumption that Ineeded to be able to phrase the

(23:29):
language, and I do think forsystems change, we need to be
able to illustrate a world whereeverybody can see themselves,
and everybody can see that theirvalues have merit, and that you
can then negotiate them in goodfaith, rather than come in and
say, This is everything you'redoing is inaccurate. This is all
right, I don't think gets us,gets us as far. So that's

(23:50):
probably it might sound to someI know as maybe some in the UN
system may be more revolutionaryto some more incremental,
depending on where you sit onthat spectrum, but I think
systems inherently want to holdon to their their framework, and
being able to both shift piecesand build on pieces, I think can

(24:11):
actually be very helpful.

I love this because essentially you're saying that
if you really want to createchange, everyone has to be
included, and that means thatyou really need to meet people
where they are and create spaceto have their views also be
heard and seen, and then findways to get closer together 100%

I mean, I think it's, I think it's less
about women led or women's andit's more about inclusive

processes, right?
So not there a lot in this worldthat

we're living in? Well, of course, we're not.
But if you look at so, I'll tellyou, years ago, this was when I
first started, someone who wasin was in my extended family
wasn't necessarily very close toI had been talking about our
work in Libya and and he waslike, super resistant. He was
like, this makes no sense. Idon't know what you're talking
about. And I would explain. Belike, no, but listen, and
finally, like, he kind ofstopped and said a lot. And

(25:04):
who's an elder, said a lot. Youknow, everything you say means
that everything I raised mydaughters, everything I taught
them to believe, all the valuesthat I was raised with by my own
family, are all wrong, andyou're right. And it was the
first time somebody had saidthat to me. Of like, if you come
in here just telling me this ishow things should be. You're
implying that everything beforeyou was completely inadequate or

(25:25):
inaccurate, and at some times,when we talk about it
intentionally. So yeah, and Idon't think that breeds well for
change. I actually think peopleneed to feel like, okay, you see
me where I am. I see where youare. We're both not going to get
everything we want, but we cancome a little closer, we can
come a little closer, and it'llbe more sustainable. And over
time, people build, Inshallah,every generation will build on

(25:46):
that. But, but I thinkotherwise, we see what we're
seeing now, which is, you know,we've social change movements
happen, and they're notnecessarily resilient. Almost
immediately you're going to seebacklash, and the backlash will
be more severe than the initialchallenge, absolutely, because
we all absolutely, because weall resist change, because we
all resist change and so, andthat's a very human thing. So I

(26:07):
do, I think everybody needs tobe able to see themselves, and
there needs to be space foreverybody at that table. Yeah,

I want to ask you about your TED talk that you
gave in 2015 and it was titled,what Islam really says about
women. And that TED talk wasviewed by millions, myself
included. And in that talk, youspoke about the important need

(26:38):
for women to be at the table, tochallenge narratives that are
wrong and to really take onoutdated systems at their very
core. And I think you'vedefinitely been, you know,
walking that talk and sitting atthe tables. But I I'm wondering

(27:00):
if you think back to the time ofthat talk, did you anticipate
the massive impact that talkwould not just have on your
career, but on many other womenwho saw that talk? I did not.

I think, I don't know if I've told you this
story, but I had been in Libya,so I had done the Oslo Freedom
Forum a couple of, literally,two days before I flew in for
the TED Talk. And it was sounexpectedly overwhelming for me
that I called my mom and I said,Can you please come? Because I

(27:37):
was like, Oh, I did not realizeit was this big, yeah, and there
were this many people and and soI and I my dad stayed on the My
mom and my mom flew down. My dadstayed on the phone with me as I
practiced my speech, because Ialso didn't realize you needed
to memorize it. And I'm not avery good memorizer of speeches,
so it was overwhelming. I thinkthe thing I would have, you

(27:59):
know, the TED Talk talks aboutnot just women's inclusion, but
I have a pretty firm belief. I'ma very proud Muslim. I firmly
and I believe in the power ofindividual faith immensely,
because I think it's one of mygreatest drivers and one of the
ways in which I find strength.
But I also think religion as anorganized construct has been one

(28:19):
of the most powerful, if not themost powerful, function in our
world, and has created so many Imean, if you look at our our
legal process, if you look atlaw economics,

tell me I'm Egyptian Exactly,

exactly we are also No but everything anchors
from faith, from from thisorganized religion. And I do
think my major kind of focus ofit was that we do need to start
divorcing religion is anorganized tool. Yeah, from from
faith. Because I do think thatthe manipulation and misuse of

(28:58):
religion across all major faithsand the unique the unilateral
interpretation of religion bypredominantly men, has meant
that it is absent a verydangerous Yeah, it's incredibly
dangerous, particularly forwomen. It's absent of women's
experiences, absent of theirlens. And had I known how many
people would have viewed that, Ithink I would have put more time

(29:20):
into explaining thatdistinction, because it was hard
for a lot of people to be like,Oh, but you're clearly Muslim,
and yet you're saying organizedreligion is ineffective. And I
don't know if that and so if Icould go back, I would probably
add a sentence or two sayingyour individual faith, that
personal spiritual calibration,whatever you need, that is not

(29:40):
the same thing as organizedreligion. You may associate them
together. You may, you know, goto your local congregation,
mosque, you know, synagogue,Temple, whatever it might be,
and find a lot of community inorganized religion. But the
construct of organized religioncan be an incredibly powerful
positive or negative tool,absolutely, and history has
shown us for women more often.
Negative,

you know. And I, you know, I'm also a very proud
Muslim, and my faith means a lotto me. And I, you know, in in
when you're in America, youoften get faced with this lens
of Muslim women are oppressed,and you kind of look and say,
I'm standing here right in frontof you, do I look, I'm not

(30:23):
oppressed. I mean, there arethese big stereotypes around
what it means to be a Muslimwoman, and when we go back to
the very origins of our religionand the first wife of Prophet,
Muhammad, Khadijah, and peopleforget the story. And I love the
story, and I say it all thetime. Khadija was the most

(30:45):
successful entrepreneur in allof Arabia. She was 40 years old.
She chose the prophet to wasn'tthe prophet at the time, to work
for her in her business. Sheproposed to him. She was
divorced. She was a woman withagency, and she used that
agency, and she made her owndecisions, and she financed the

(31:09):
Islamic online exactly in itsinfancy. And somehow I feel that
we don't tell that narrativealso enough so that women, not
just are women of from, where wecome from, or Muslim women at
large, but also so that Westernmedia can stop only sharing that

(31:30):
one narrative, right? Thatsingle story narrative becomes
very

dangerous well. And so there's, it's such
an interesting point to me,because Khadija radila on how
was like this, the this kind ofeconomic powerhouse. And then
you had most of the Prophet. Thesayings of the Prophet were
transmitted by one of his wives,Aisha. And you had Hafsah, or
the Aloha, who really kind ofsafeguarded the Quran, the holy
book. You had nusayba, who was,you know, kind of protected him

(31:55):
in combat and in war. There's somany, there's so many. There's
so many incredible stories. Andyet I and that, to me, is
actually the most kind ofreaffirming piece. If I didn't
have that historical leg tostand on, then I would actually
be able to say, Okay, wait asecond. I don't see women
represented very well. But thenit stops, right? And that's when
the interpretation piece comesin, and that's when you notice

(32:16):
that, wait this, this is afaith. This religious
institution becomes anorganizing or the organized
institution of it exactly, andthat's where you see women. And
that's no different

than by the way, there happened in Christianity.
It happened in every major

but in every major industry as well, once it
became lucrative, once itbecomes and even today, for
community health workers,oftentimes community health
workers around the world are areeither unpaid or very lowly
paid. And yet, when you startincreasing their salaries, and
because of that, you know,there's 70 to 80% women, when
you start increasing thesalaries, and there's actual,

(32:50):
there's an actual paycheck tothe job, they start being taken
over, actually, by men in thecommunity. So it's not unique to
just faith. There is a piece ofit where it is about,
fundamentally about power, andfaith is a very good tool to
maintain and own power. But thebut the other piece of it is I
spent a long time trying to tomake people understand the

(33:10):
answer to the role of Muslimwomen or that, and I realized
now I have a four year olddaughter, you know, who is
brilliant and incredible, and Iwould hate if she grows up
feeling like she has toarticulate to people how she's
not oppressed, or if she feelslike that's even a question she
has to humor. And so I'vestopped like, that's not my

(33:33):
audience. I mean, if that's andI don't, I don't think it's a
distraction. It's a distraction.
It's not even a good faithquestion. If you're coming at me
with that after, you know,after, kind of everything else.
And it was an old mentor of minetold me, when I was, you know,
22 he said it i You have fourthings that always work against
you. You're going to be you'revisibly Muslim, you are a woman,
you're clearly a and, and you'reyoung. And he said, the benefit

(33:58):
is that one you'll grow out of,and

all too soon, truly

and but it was, it was interesting to me,
because I see it as the exactopposite. I mean, those four
things are huge strengths. Icome into a room with a
completely different perspectivethan anybody else. I come in
with a completely differentcommunity and constituency. I'm
then accountable to bring inperspectives and to ensure other
people can come in as well, butI'm so shaped by those
experiences that I think it's ahuge benefit. And I think I

(34:28):
think we're slowly seeing aworld that recognizes people's
different perspectives andexperiences as a benefit, and
anybody who holds on to kind ofan archaic like superficial
assumption of people based onsomething they didn't even take
the time to read or learn orengage in. I don't know if
that's if that's something I I'minterested that's not something

(34:51):
I'm interested in engaging inanymore. Fair,

very fair. So you know, I want to say that you're
always telling me, Dina, youneed to. Speak more. You need to
engage in public speaking more.
You need to share your thoughtsmore. And I'm always saying I'm
the introvert. I don't reallylike public speaking. And you're
always saying you need to do it.
But it's not always easy forwomen to own their space. And I

(35:17):
want to ask, because I know thatthis is something that you
encourage women to do, but Iwant to know, what advice do you
have for women, specificallywomen entrepreneurs,
specifically womenentrepreneurs, who come from
growth markets, which the workthe countries that we serve as
the Center for developmententrepreneurship? What advice do

(35:40):
you have for women when it comesto owning their space and
finding their voice and usingit?

Unknown (35:46):
What advice do I have?

I just want to tell everybody she does not shy away
from using her voice.

Well, no. And the reason I think you should
more is because, Alhamdulillah,for the past 1012, years, I've
gotten the benefit of yourguidance and advice, and I
actually think it's completelychanged the way I look at maybe
one on one. No, I know, but youshould give it, bestow it upon
more people. And I thinkactually my biggest piece of
advice is to just do itprobably, I mean, nobody is
inherently comfortable withengaging, and a lot of it, I

(36:16):
mean, there's some things I saidyears ago where I'm like, Oh my
gosh, did I actually say that inan interview, if only you had
the benefit of what you know nowor, well,

it made sense at the time. This is what I always
say in the moment. It was theright

thing.
Exactly. It's what it but youknow what you know, right and
so, but I do think part of it isso many of the women who I
respect and admire. I mean,like, just aside from you, you
know, faruza, Farhan, Jaha toCori, Roy Mahboob, there's these
amazing women who have such adepth and breadth of experience
and knowledge and feel reallynot hesitant, but question the

(36:54):
power of their voice a lot. AndI actually don't think, I don't
think everyone does that. Ithink we do. We assume, like,
Okay, wait, am I the person whoshould speak up about this? You
know, will I reflect everyone'sperspectives? No, we don't. You
won't. And nobody holds, youknow, and I'm not picking on
James's here, but nobody holds aguy named James to that account.

(37:15):
He's not supposed to representevery single woman from the
global south always, or everysingle man from the Global
North. That's not we're the oneswho are supposed to come in and
represent a community behind usat all times. And so my one
piece of advice would be, no,you show up with your
experience, with your expertise,and represent yourself and your

(37:36):
constituency to the best of yourability, but at least show up,
because the alternative is thatthose conversations happen
without you and and then thatperspective is never

heard. Yeah, somebody very close to me
recently said, When you choosenot to speak, you're choosing
not to you're depriving thegroup from the value that you
bring

100% and you're and you can't complain
then about any of the outcomes,right? So like, if you chose not
to speak up, and the solution isnot one that reflects lived
experience, or you don't thinkwill actually be able to be
implemented, because it's notrealistic, then you don't
actually get to say anything,because you you abdicated that
account, that responsibility,right? So I do, I think you're

(38:23):
accountable for it when you'rein any space. And I also do
think particularly, and I willsay for for women from from our
community, from our region, theassumption is that we don't, and
so part of me feels like it'seven more important, important a
responsibility, because then ifmy daughter can't see women like
her speaking up, I don't thinkshe'll feel as comfortable. So I

(38:45):
think it's something we in thesame way every generation before
us has done it for us. I

worry sometimes that we we put the burden on
women like you to carry that forus. And I don't think that's
right. We should be right.

I think we all should. No, I think we all
should. And I think that, and Ithink that's where we that's
where we build something greaterthan a single story. If it's
just one or two or 10 or 15,that's the challenge, right?
Because that's the onlyperspective that an audience is
getting. But imagine if it's 100210,000 get all those, you know
what I mean, and then people cansee the diversity of experience,

(39:19):
of perspective. I mean, you andI don't agree on 95% Well,
probably that's not I don't knowabout that. I don't know about
that, but we don't agree on alot. Yeah, if nobody hears you,
we agree on a lot more than whatwe do is true but, but I hear
you, then they assume myperspective reflects a group
which is not always,

which is not always the case. So you, you, you spoke
a little bit about theimportance of economic inclusion
of women. And I want to zoom ina little bit on that, because
since this is the the Center fordevelopment entrepreneurship, we
know that. You know the data isthere. The World Bank has

(39:57):
numerous times and multiplestudies talked about. About how
gender equity in the formallabor market can lead to massive
increases in GDP growth. Seemspretty simple. You know, when
you talk to like Libya or inEgypt or in Nigeria or Brazil or
in Indonesia or wherever, itseems pretty simple. Create

(40:20):
gender equality, you're going tosee massive impact on your
economic prosperity journey. Butyet, we're not seeing it. We're
just not seeing the numbers. Andyou know, I think women led
ventures can be a big part ofboosting prosperity and women in

(40:43):
senior executive positions, andwomen as policy makers, you
know, women's leadership. Yousay this all the time. It's not
a nice to have. It's an absoluteessential, but the numbers are
just not there. So my questionto you is, what do we need? And

(41:04):
I know you believe in the powerof narratives and stories. I
mean, because I want to say thatfrom so many angles, so many of
us have worked on the importanceof economic inclusion of women,
and we talk about what policiesneed to be in place, and we talk
about boards and governance andputting women on boards, and
then, you know, the worldbanker, the IC, creates some

(41:27):
special certification for womento sit on boards that I think
is, you know, a littlecondescending. But anyway, let's
move on from that. You know whatI mean, what? What do we need to
do to really shift mindsets andto create that space that would
allow for gender equality in, Iwant to say in the formal labor

(41:50):
market, because women carry thebrunt in the informal sector.
And

I think that's actually part of it. I think
it's recognizing all the workthat they do do informally, and
actually compensating for itwould be one piece of it, but,
but beyond that, I actuallydon't think women's inclusion in
the formal economy is solely aneconomic problem or a gendered
problem. I actually think it'sand we've, we've been talking a

(42:14):
lot about this at work, butthere's this kind of this notion
in many of these developedcountries, where you're seeing
aging populations, and anassumption that in in frontier
and emerging markets that wouldbe able to help compensate for
it, because you have all thisthis younger population. And
when they actually looked at it,they were like, wait a second,
we're not seeing the economieswe thought we would. Because
it's not an age demographicchallenge, it's a gender it's a

(42:38):
gender one, it's a gendered one.
So we're still having that kindof economic gap, right? And I
think it's multi fold. I thinkit starts from the very
beginning. I mean, if we talkabout everything from girls
education to, you know, andsecondary education, in
particular, the ability toactually be able to enter the
formal workspace, the informalnetworks, relationships, access
to financing that you need allof that. All of those are pieces

(43:02):
that we actually do have to beable to deliver on. But I think
the deepest one is we don't. Weoften talk about the absence of,
not the benefit of and I thinkthat's what I'm seeing shift
which is exciting. And when youtalk about the power of
narratives, I think it is thebenefit of women led resilience,
or the benefit of women'sengagement in the economic

(43:24):
market, it's what

entrepreneurial language, exactly from scarcity
to abundance, exactly

no but 100% because that's what it is,
right? What we're saying, we'renot saying that this is somehow
going to completely and it will,let's not deny it will shift
norms in workplaces,communities. It'll shift health
outcomes. It'll shift educationoutcomes. All that's true, but
what we're saying first andforemost is that it will
actually create the opportunityfor greater economic growth for
everyone. And I think startingfrom that as a spot can be

(43:55):
helpful. The other piece, I'dsay, is there's a lot of these
niche like women fund, you know,like women, you know, to your
point, something that'll comeout of the World Bank that's
quite niche, or we'll talkabout, like, women's economic
empowerment as a separate and Ithink something that's super
interesting is the sheer amountof funds and resources that are
put into something like, forexample, climate Have we ever

(44:18):
looked at that and said we'regoing to earmark to make sure
that A percentage of this goesto women led ventures, or we're
going to because that, I think,is the piece that's kind of
missing, is we have all of thesemassive existing institutions,
policies and norms. Can weactually say we're going to, as
as part of the total amountrequire that this is, this is

(44:38):
leading to more of an inclusivegrowth, that we're actually
taking that into considerationwhen we make decisions. So it's
not a niche $50 million fund,but it's that broader 16 billion
that the World Bank isprogramming for climate large.
So I think pieces like that, onething I will say, the women
peace and security movement didquite well, although I don't
think it's implemented wellenough at all, is create things

(44:59):
like National. Action Plans,like, what does good look like?
And very few countries haveimplemented them effectively. I

was going to say, the plans get done. And then
what? Very but, but for women's,

for women's engagement in the form formal
work, like formal market space,I think the challenge isn't just
the plans. It's okay. If you canactually tell me, what are the
Beck like, the big bets. Whatare the best buys? Who do I need
to what do I actually need toinvest in within that value
chain? Because it's not I needto go and invest in 50 women
entrepreneurs. That's not goingto solve the problem. So what is

(45:32):
the marriage of solutions withinthat plan that I need to
actually take intoconsideration, including the
structural issue, including thestructural issue, exactly,
because that's where I think youcan actually but right now, it
does feel, and this is trueacross health, this is true
across climate, this is trueacross everything. It does feel
like we do things in a in a verykind of siloed, piecemeal way,
and how can we actuallyintegrate them? Because if you

(45:54):
do get more women who are whohave agency over their own
resources, who can spend themhow they choose, who can you're
going to have women who arechoosing to space out their kids
more get married later. You'regoing to have much more
effective health interventionsand outcomes. It actually does
create a domino effect for theentire community. It's not
simply about that economicopportunity. And so how do you

(46:16):
actually paint a picture thatshows that investments in health
could actually be complementaryto some of the investments
you're making for women'sentrepreneurs? Women's
Entrepreneurship could bereinforced all interconnected.
Yeah, it could be reinforced byclimate funding and other things
to show that you can actuallybuild resilience that in a more
holistic way.

So let's talk about women's health a little bit. So
you've been, you've been at, youknow, you spent the past several
years working at the GatesFoundation. And, you know, I
often come to you and I said, Iheard you talk say this about
women in health, and I heard yousay when I was blown away, and
I'm like, thank you so much forsaying, I say that to you all
the time. But you know, Women'sHealth is is such a significant

(46:56):
issue right now. And I thinkeven though we're seeing this
kind of rise in what we callfemtech, and we're seeing more
entrepreneurs take on issuesrelated to women's health. We're
not seeing enough of it, andwe're certainly not seeing
enough capital be allocatedspecifically to this space. And

(47:17):
you know, I want to say thatwomen's health is not an issue
of only the underserved or thepoor. It's an issue that every
woman continues to suffer from,including myself. And you know,
I always talk about when I wasdiagnosed with cancer, how how

(47:37):
lucky I was am to have been ableto advocate for myself, because
I have the ability to do my ownresearch and the social network
to find people and get adviceand thoughts and to consult. And
I think if I didn't have that, Iwould have been so lost in the

(47:57):
system, and I'm not sure myoutcomes would have been what
they were. You've been in thisspace for a long time. You
worked at the Gates Foundation,the largest foundation investing
in public health right now, fromyour perspective, and from the
years of working in a bigfoundation like that, is that

(48:21):
enough? I mean, is it enough fora foundation to the what? What
do we really need to change tolevel the playing field and to
completely shift this entirefield of healthcare that has
been designed around the body ofa white male? Yeah, it's

an excellent question. I don't think any one
foundation, I don't think anyone institution, can solve the
problem on their own. What Ithink the benefit of the Gates
Foundation is, is that it cantake risks that governments
could ideally scale governmentsand other partners, I will say,
on women's health specifically.
And this is a little bit marriedto your last question on
economic opportunity andleadership. For me, Women's

(48:59):
Health is, I think, the startingpoint. It's really challenging
for me to go up to a young womanand say, hey, you need to be a
political or an economic leaderif she doesn't have agency over
her own choices, her own body,she doesn't have the access to
health and opera and care, Ithink that's the gateway to
opportunity, in my mind. And sofor me, health really does

(49:21):
become the cornerstone, thecornerstone, right? And to your
point, when you have access tocare, when you you can be your
own advocate. Imagine if youdidn't have those systems at
all. Imagine if you didn't havethose resources at all, not that
you didn't know them, but thatthey just didn't exist where you
were. And so the fact that ayoung woman can completely that
the trajectory of your life iscompletely shifted based on

(49:44):
where you're born. Yeah, becauseof the what it means for your
access to care and for youraccess to opportunity is
something that I think is justincredibly unjust. And so a huge
amount of my especially in 2024especially in 2024 and I mean,
you can point to speak. Specificthings. The fact that we still
have women dying in childbirth,to me, is absolutely, you know,
and I heard your last when youspoke about that, yeah, we have,

(50:05):
we have solutions that cost lessthan $2 that cost less than $1
um, literally, plastic drapesthat can help save not just the
mom, but the baby, the family,the community. So to me, that
that one is, is, is reallystark. But I think the, I think
for both economic empowerment,economic opportunity and

(50:26):
leadership, and for women'shealth, one thing we don't talk
about enough is power, and womenare not often the ones making a
lot of the decisions, right? Andso if you're looking at, for
example, the investment inglobal health, R and D, that
goes to kind of women's specificissues, it's less than 4% and if
you take out cancer, it's lessthan 2% and that's pretty
shocking, because women have alot of women specific issues

(50:48):
that actually mean quite a bitfor them. Even within

that cancer, most of it goes through a very
specific cancer, and the rest ofthe women's cancers get the
exact shorter end of the stick,exactly

100% and so I think part of it is okay, who
are, who is a who is sitting indecision making spaces that we
can advocate to, I think iscritically important. That's one
area where the foundation reallytakes a leading approach. But
then also, how do we get morewomen in those positions that
are making decisions aroundthose resource pools? Because I
do think the more funding we canget into women's health

(51:18):
research, actually, the morecost effective, the tools will
be so they won't be so highcost. So they can get to more
women. We can create betterdelivery systems and Access
systems. So I do think part ofit's it's not just a one size
fits all. It won't be a oneorganization fits all. But what
we have been able to do in thepast three years is actually get
people talking about it,recognizing that women's health

(51:39):
is critical, recognizing thathealthy women build healthy
communities, and that's truebased on every economic metric.
And we aren't, I don't think weare in the globally, in such a
positive economic landscape thatwe can ignore that large of a
labor force. And so I don't, I'mpretty pragmatic. I don't care

(51:59):
what language I have to use. Iwill talk about women as, you
know, economic representativeagents. I will talk about them
in terms of productivity. I'lluse entrepreneurship language.
It genuinely does not matter ifthe end, if the end outcome is
more resources and more policiesthat benefit women's health and
women's opportunity. I'm, youknow, I think we should advocate

(52:21):
to everybody, because there's,there's a lot of positions of
power that just aren't part ofthe conversation, and

so many things would change if women were at
that table making thosedecisions. So you recently
launched a newsletter calledRadical resilience. Resilience.
I encourage everyone tosubscribe, and it emphasizes
that resilience isn't passive.
You say it demands intention,collaboration and action from

(52:46):
women in Senegal to systemictransformations in Bangladesh.
You describe radical as going tothe root of a problem, and
resilience as more than justsurviving. It's about
fundamentally reshaping andreimagining systems. You know,
resilience is a word that Ithink we often throw throw

(53:08):
around very casually, and wealways, you know, say to our
entrepreneurs, part of being anentrepreneur, especially in an
emerging market or growthmarket, is being resilient. And
I think, you know, you, youreading your newsletter, it
opened my eyes up, because we,when we say resilience, we do

(53:28):
mean survival, and you've put itinto something that is, I think,
much more profound and bigger,which is connecting that to
being able to reshape systems.
So what was the catalyst forstarting this newsletter?

I think my catalyst was community. Before
COVID, I had invested in andreally spent so much time and
energy in community with otherleaders, other emerging leaders,
predominantly women from theGlobal South. And I, we had
something called the EmergingLeaders lab. We spent two days

(54:10):
together. We and we became very,very good friends, and have been
a sustaining community to eachother for the past few years.
And I often get asked by youngwomen, okay, but how do you do
it? I have two young kids, like,oh, how do you balance? I don't
there. There. I optimize. Thereare true things, right? And, and
who do you look to? And I say,Well, you know, who are your
role models? And I'm like, well,mostly the women I work with,

(54:30):
the women I get to see in notnecessarily in the same field as
me, but leading in their ownfields. And when I had to think
about what I would kind ofcollectively define them as it
was resilient. They are allpeople who withstood incredible
change in their community,sometimes, oftentimes, were the
ones driving much of that changeat huge personal risk. And it

(54:54):
didn't mean that they weren'tcommitted. It meant that they
were even more so. And that itwas because of their faith in
the in the power and potentialof their own community and
country that they were sodetermined to do it. So I I
found that particularlyimportant. And so many of them
went through a personalexperience that drove that,

(55:15):
something that otherwise couldhave been completely something
that in many people, I don'tthink would have inspired that
kind of resilience. And instead,they took it and they said,
Okay, how can I build from this?
How can I change this so itnever happens to anybody else?
And then for radical, I thoughtit was interesting, because I
get called, I get calledradical, usually not in the most

(55:36):
positive way all the time. So

I get that. We all get that, yeah, truly. And so we
understand Donovan's Beck there,he gets it too.

No, truly, like, literally. And so weeks
before we were naming this,weeks and months before we were
naming this, I was reading thisbook, and it was talking like
this, and it was talking abouthow radical was just kind of to
go to the root of and I'm like,that's not how we use it
anymore. And, and I think weshould re own that word. I think
it's actually a very powerfulone. And so the more we can say

(56:09):
it's actually incredibly radicalto demand change. It's
incredibly radical to then buildit, to build resilient systems,
to, you know, there's, there'sother terms people use, like
anti fragility and, and I, tome, it's, it's less about the,
you know, everybody should usethe term they're comfortable
with, but I like resilience,because it actually you get to a

(56:31):
point where it is oftentimesfragile. That's a very human
experience from at a communitylevel, at a personal level, I
think it's great for us to beable to build armor, but
oftentimes that armor fails, notand in many of our
circumstances, it's notnecessarily choices of ours, but
it's the systems and structuresaround us. And so you do have to

(56:51):
build resilience, and I thinkthere are the way to keep going.
Yeah, incredibly powerfullessons we've learned, not
necessarily from me, but from somany people around me that have
kept me sustained. And so thatwas really kind of the impetus
of the newsletter, is, how do Iand I intentionally did it on
LinkedIn, because I was like, Ican either use this platform for

(57:11):
updates, and, you know, when Igive a do a panel, or I can
actually use this to say Ilearned from some really
incredible particularly women,and I'd love for you to meet
them, and that's what, what weended up doing, but do continue

to share your panels, because that's how I get
your you know, that's how,that's how I get to follow you.
You know, I you're entering intoperhaps a new chapter, I think,
in your career. And I knowyou've been, you've been talking
to me a lot about this internetintersection between health and
climate, and you know how youwant to start pushing more in

(57:48):
that direction. But what I foundreally interesting lately is
that you've been talking aboutthe importance of capital
allocation and investing inapplying a gender lens
investment approach, and reallylooking into investing in
entrepreneurs who are in theclimate space and in the health
space, that's a massive shift.
So what made you decide to say,You know what risk capital,

(58:14):
venture capital, and how capitalis allocated, is also an
extremely important piece ofthis puzzle. And I always say
this a lot too. I say, you know,for the past several years, I've
always been focused on venturecapital as the very beginning of
a venture's journey, andbeginnings really matter to how

(58:40):
things end.

I will say you are one of the people who has
influenced my approach, and youknow that and my husband has
influenced my approachsignificantly.

Mohammed influences all of us. I know truly,

but I think seeing there were two things for
me. The first is, in the pastfew years, we have seen the
contraction of a lot ofgovernment funding, yeah, and I
realized just how malleable thatis, and we also see a huge surge
in private sector andphilanthropic wealth that I
think can drive prettysignificant shifts. For the past

(59:15):
four years, I got to I served asthe director at the Gates
Foundation, and I realized howmuch you could leverage that to
take risks and to be able toprove a case, right? And I think
that's what we're missing. Wedon't actually, we don't invest
the capital to even be able tosay, look, this is this is a
good buy. We've actually donethis. We've tested that. It's
great. We've done it in multiplecountries. So where do you get
that kind of risk capital? Andthat drove me more and more to

(59:37):
thinking about, okay, what arethose? And I don't think it's
just funding. I think it has tobe married with programs. I
think it has to be married withreally strong advocacy. But how
do you more effectively,actually invest in it, to be
able to prove okay, this isactually what works in a much
more intersectional way, a muchmore multi sectoral way, so
that, I think was one of themajor kind of pivot points.

(01:00:00):
Yeah. And the second was, Ithink there is a challenge in
that sometimes we invest inprograms in the from the global
development perspective, thatcan parachute in and out, and I
find that local entrepreneursprove to be more resilient in
that sense, they stay, theybuild, they expand, exactly
they're invested in thecommunity, and they reinvest in
the community. And that, in andthat, in and of itself, ends up

(01:00:22):
being such an incredible engine.
And so for me, it was thequestion of okay for and
particularly women. Women, whenthey have economic agency, tend
to reinvest much more in theircommunity. And so how do we then
look at women not as Okay? Let'sthink about gender equitable
policies on health or climate orbut how do we instead look at
them as these like Centraldrivers of resilience and

(01:00:42):
agency? How do we instead lookat okay, if I invested in
entrepreneurship that had aparticular focus on inclusivity,
not just women, but reallylooked at okay, this is the
population I'm serving. This ishow I can drive inclusive growth
and had impacts on your healthand your climate outcomes. What
would that mean to to in asustainable sense? So I don't, I

(01:01:05):
don't think it's either or. Ithink it's both and, but I'm
increasingly interested in inthe private sector role, and I
have been years ago, I was theCEO of a company called Impact
2030 that works with a lot ofprivate sector companies and and
I just, I find it incrediblycompelling as we see more and
more companies say, Okay, we'regoing to be more committed to

(01:01:26):
these principles. How do weactually then leverage that at
the very local level? And I dothink that's oftentimes local
entrepreneurs. So

Dina Sherif (01:01:36):
maybe time for you to come work with us. You know,
we, I mean, I, I'm joking, butnot joking, but the center, at
the very core of it is thisbelief that entrepreneurship and
innovation is extremely criticalto creating sustainable
prosperity. And for years, youknow, global development has not

(01:01:58):
included entrepreneurs in thatprocess, specifically innovation
driven, entrepreneurs who areusing technology and are indeed
to solve complex challenges. Andyou know, entrepreneurs get
taken seriously when they'vereached that billion dollar
status. And we want to say, takethem seriously from the
beginning, because they will bethe ones who are transforming

(01:02:19):
systems and doing that. So

Dr. Alaa Murabit (01:02:23):
then it's that the innovation piece is
particularly interesting,because I think if we don't
invest in local entrepreneurswho are driving innovation and
making it more accessible, thenyou actually create an even
bigger inequity, and economicinequity, where people have
access to innovation, people getto use it, people and some
don't. And I think that's also arisk. So it's also kind of, it's

(01:02:43):
not, it's it's sustainable, andit's more equitable if we
actually invest locally, and ifwe do it in a much more
intentional way, and we actuallybuild opportunities and systems
around and I wouldn't just sayit's, it's the venture capital,
but it's also what kind ofpartnerships and relationships
that do you then build withlocal and national governments
or sub national governments tobe able to ensure that, then
they create the necessaryregulatory framework, pathways

(01:03:06):
or or some of the necessarypartnerships to ensure that
those entrepreneurs

can leverage those other you know, where there's a
professor, his name is HalGregerson, and in his work, he
often talks about the compoundedimpact, the multiplier effect.
And I think women, womenentrepreneurs, are not just
important to invest and say, Oh,we invested in women

(01:03:32):
entrepreneurs, but they havesuch an incredible multiplier
effect. And and I, and I lovehow you always bring that back
into the conversation in thesense that women will always
reinvest what they have in theirsociety, in their families,
their surrounding communities.
And you you will see thatmultiplier effect always. You
know, I see it all the time,even when we put, you know,

(01:03:54):
tech, technology and innovationdriven entrepreneurship aside
and we just look at smallbusinesses run by women in the
informal sector, the first thingthat women do is educate their
children, and that leads to amultiplier effect. It's a
consequence

of the unpaid labor you were talking about,
100% is that they then driveback any paid labor back into
their communities, and theycreate greater economic
opportunity for other women andmen, which is, I think,
incredibly So, how

does this all funnel back into your passion of
climate and health?

I think so my I always, my husband years ago,
said, If you don't figure outwhat you want to do, other
people will figure out what youcan't do for them. And so he's
always been very good at being,you know, be very clear about
what it is you want to do. I do,you know, I travel a lot for
work, and I used to say even tomy parents, like, it has to be

(01:04:52):
something I really believe infor it to be worth being away
from my own kids. And for me,that is that every woman and
every. Child has access toopportunity, and I only think
that's possible through accessto care. I really do. I think if
you do not have health care, therest actually becomes a lot more
challenging, if not, frankly,and nearly impossible. And I
think there are some key yearsthere for women, it's, you know,

(01:05:16):
their their entire lifetime,frankly, but those first five
years for children areincredibly critical. And I also
think the you then doubled thechallenge. And you remember the
floods last year in Libya there,you know, you double the
challenge with these climateevents and with the shifting
climate that is going to becatastrophic in many of our

(01:05:37):
countries, and is going tocreate completely new challenges
that I don't think we have theinfrastructure or the resources
often to be able to face, but wedo have the talent, we have the
people, we have the innovation,we have the appetite. So I do
think we've spoken a little bitabout this, but I think the next
step has to be something thatreally looks at people as they
experience life, not kind of thevertical way we approach it, of

(01:06:00):
like, oh, health here, climatehere. Interesting for Yeah,
intersected, for a woman whoactually works in community, be
her a small holder farmer or acommunity health worker, the
same woman is the one trying tofeed and educate her kids. She's
the same woman who's trying topotentially start a venture,
open a bank account. The samewoman, genuinely, the same woman
who is working those smallholder farms, is the same one

(01:06:21):
who's trying to get access tocare, and until we start

the same woman who has to deal with the aftermath
of a flood exactly

the exact same one. And so I think if we start
anchoring that experience as thestarting point, we can actually
start building solutions thatthen reflect those lived
experiences and what's needed.
And I do think elements of itwill need to be resourcing much
more directly, investing inwomen. I do think there is a
piece that's not necessarilybuilding an evidence base, but

(01:06:48):
almost taking all of the datathat exists, because there is a
quite a bit, and being able andleveraging it for advocacy,
making it more digestible. Andthen I do think there's a piece
that is working with governmentand with institutions to say,
okay, what are the policies thatyou have in place now? How can
we make them more effective,working with existing funds and
saying, Okay, how can we ensurethat we're actually taking a

(01:07:11):
much more inclusive approach toour investments and then
leveraging health and climateoutcomes as proof and evidence,
not just the economic outcomes,but proven evidence of the
impact, but it my, my thinkingis in its infancy, as you know,
and a lot of this is still Imean, please send me all your
books and reading and everythingthat I should be doing to

(01:07:31):
better, to better interrogate.

Yes, we love it when people get interested in
venture capital andentrepreneurship and innovation.
I mean, that's just ourpreoccupation.

Well, I like, I do. Like the ability, you
know, I like the idea ofinvesting for impact. Yeah, I
think that, to me, is incrediblycompelling, and how we can do
that in a way that truly shiftspeople's like, health outcomes
shifts, you know, allows forcommunities to build resiliency
to climate, allows forcommunities to really build

(01:08:05):
robust systems of care. I'mreally curious, and

I think the reality is, and I don't think venture
capital, very few venturecapitalists realize this
anywhere in the world. How youbuild your portfolio, you can
build it in a way that cantransform a system? Yeah, and
that's a choice, and that goesback to some of the things you
say about intentionality. And wejust have to be more intentional

(01:08:30):
about how we allocate capital,what we choose to do with our
philanthropic investments, withour private everything requires
intentionality. So I'm excitedfor what comes next for you, but
I do want to ask you. So in mylast podcast with Christopher
Schroeder, he turned the tableon me in the middle of the
podcast, because, you know, youcarry a gazillion hats and you

(01:08:53):
play so many roles. I also, youknow, carry multiple hats, but I
don't think, I think I have,minus the fact that I'm not a
mother, but you are, and youhave two little children, but
yet you have all these otherhats. You're also a wife, you're
also a daughter, you're asibling of 10 others, of 10
other kids. So we only have 24hours a day. How do you balance

(01:09:18):
all of your roles? And I'm surethat you, like all of us, get
bombarded with emails andWhatsApps and LinkedIn messages,
and what is your trick tomanaging all of these different
things and creating is therebalance? I know you said
earlier, there's no such thingas balance. There's

(01:09:39):
optimization. Well,

I don't know if it's so first off, I actually
want to hear your answer to thatquestion, because I think you
get bombarded with way moremessages than not so sure. Not
so sure. I tend to my firstlesson is, ignore WhatsApp. No,
that's awful. But I know thatyou do that I do, because you
answer me quite late. I haveYeah, I do. Well, what happens
is, actually, it's not even thatI answer. I'll read something,

(01:10:00):
and in my mind, I've respondedto you, and then I'll and then,
and then I usually reopen themessage when I want to come back
and ask you why you haven'tresponded to me. And I'm like,
Oh, wait, and I didn't send thatmessage, but you have another
colleague who does that. It's agood strategy. It's a great
strategy, but I do, I do haveblackout periods where I just
don't open messaging apps, and Iwill delete them from my phone,
and I'll re download them asneeded. And that's more just

(01:10:23):
because if I've, if I have had along travel period, I'm home
with the kids for three days. Iactually want to be 100% home
with the kids, but I don't. So Idon't balance. I used to be in
like, this relentless pursuit ofbalance, where I was like, Oh,
what am I going to find it anddoesn't exist. It doesn't exist.
Well, I read this great book,though, that that I have now

(01:10:44):
used almost as has beenincredible for me, which is kind
of that you juggle balls inlife, and some balls are glass
and some balls are rubber. Soyour glass ball, if it falls, it
breaks, and your rubber ballwill bounce. And I used to
think, Okay, well, then all myglass balls must be family, and
all my rubber balls must be workand, and it actually is so much
more nuanced in that, like,let's say you have a really big

(01:11:04):
work trip and and you have to beon site for three days, that
becomes your glass ball forthree days. And my rubber ball
for that three days is family.
And if I come home and my kid isreally sick, then that becomes
my glass ball being home,putting them to, you know,
taking care of them bedtime. Andwork is, you know, in my work
project or meeting, or whateverit might be, is a rubber ball.
And so it's more of a and itapplies to everything, you know,

(01:11:25):
my dad remind right now, my dadis sick, and so that becomes a
glass ball. And I'll say, Okay,I have to drop other things. I'm
gonna, I'm gonna prioritizethis, and in this exact moment,
this podcast is the glass ball.
So I won't pick up my phone and,you know, check on my kids. And
I think that's been the easiestway I've kind of maybe, like, I
don't know, consoled myself. Ilove all the rubber balls. I

(01:11:48):
draw the glass ball, rubberball, yeah, but it's brilliant.
I will juggle what is in thatmoment, what is, what is the
most critical, right? And I'llgive myself grace that I only
have two hands, so I'm notjuggling the rest. Yeah, and I
think a lot of people in myfamily, my husband, in
particular, my kids, even thoughthey're quite young and haven't
realized it yet my parents. But,you know, a lot of people give

(01:12:10):
me grace because they know thatI am trying to struggle. Your
daughter

was here in our office earlier this week, and I
said, Where's mommy? She said,Dina, mommy's in Seattle
working. She has to do work inSeattle, and we get to come here
and play. And I was

like, I mean, look

at this child.
She's four years old, supportingher mom.

Oh, she does.
Mashallah. They're amazing.
They'll even when I when I'mgetting sad that I have to go
for a long trip, scene will belike, But Mama, it's okay.
You're helping people livelives. And I'm like, Okay, I
like that, yeah, but, um, but,of course, they like coming
here. You give them chocolate,and you, you,

I did not give them chocolate.

They found chocolate, but they love it here
every single time. Like, did yousee, did you see auntie dena?
She's like, Yeah, I had somechocolate. I had some

No. There was no candy love. There was no
chocolate, ice cream, candy,none of that Auntie Gina gave
them, none. So none at all. Idon't think they see you without
getting no, they don't. They seeme as the Exactly. That's right,
it's okay. We didn't, but wegenuinely did not give them
anything last time. But anyway,Donovan and I both want to ask

(01:13:21):
you about hope. And earlier thisyear, you gave a toast at the
times 100 impact dinner, andsomething you said stood out
specifically to Donovan, and hewanted me to ask you, you said,
I'm immensely grateful in adeeply bittersweet way, and
inspired by the courage anddedication of health workers in

(01:13:41):
conflict zones. You also workedin an area of conflict, and
today you're consistently at theforefront of these very
difficult conversations aboutgender inequity, food insecurity
and climate change in areas ofconflict. But somehow it still
seems like joy and gratitude aredeeply at your core. I want to i
i want to say that that isconnected to your deep faith and

(01:14:05):
spirituality, but the questionstill remains, how do you stay
so hopeful, even aftereverything that you've seen and
still see around thedifficulties of today's world?

Unknown (01:14:19):
It's a good question.
Donovan um, it's been a longcouple of

months. So you asking me this one is, it's been
a year I remain hopeful. I don'tI don't think I have the
privilege of not being hopeful.
Yeah, I think when I say likefrontline healthcare workers, is
bittersweet, because I am sograteful they are there for
their communities, but it's sobitter that they have to be that

(01:14:48):
they are in that position in thefirst place, and that we have
global systems that perpetuatethose inequities and those
conflicts. I don't think I havethe privilege of being. And
hopeful I have, you know, I amincredibly privileged. I have
had the benefit of two parentswho were absolutely driven for
my success. My grandmother wasilliterate, never had an

(01:15:10):
education, determined herdaughter would, you know, my my
mom was married at 15, and I wasable to make my own choices. I
have my life is a consequence ofother people's action and hope,
and so I don't think I have theprivilege of it. I think it is
I'm accountable, and a huge partof it is my faith. I am entirely
accountable to use whatevergifts or or talents or access or

(01:15:34):
networks or experience orknowledge, or whatever, I have
been blessed, blessed to begiven, which is not a reflection
of me, I genuinely don't think,but a reflection and and
reflection of you, but but toadvance, to advance something I
think, bigger than than myself.

(01:15:57):
So I really don't think we havethe privilege to be unhopeful, I
think. And it was interestingthese past couple of weeks, in
particular, in the US, a lot ofconversations where I'm like,
Oh, what do we do? I'm like, youknow, people have been at the
forefront of of change andaction in situations that are so
much more challenging than anyyou're imagining. They have, you
know, there are people incountries who have been taking

(01:16:18):
on life and death there and, youknow, to make change. And so I
actually think we all have ahuge privilege by nature of
where we are, where we're born,so that's probably where I get
hope.

Unknown (01:16:33):
Yeah, I think that's

very fair. So since this podcast is called legacy of
purpose. And I consider yousomebody who's extremely purpose
driven. And I think everythingyou set up until this point
demonstrates just how purposefulyou are. The last question I
have is about legacy. And youknow, you have two beautiful

(01:16:57):
children that I love. I'm alwaysexcited to see them. You have a
wide network of friends andfamily and all the people that
you serve. But when you leavethis earth, as we all will, how
do you want to be remembered,and what is the legacy you want
to leave behind? Oh,

what's the legacy you want to leave behind?
I can answer

that question after the podcast on

the podcast,

Unknown (01:17:29):
I don't know if I have that answer for you.

Dina, I mean, I would want to be somebody who
did everything they could toensure that all moms and babies
could survive, could livehealthy and effective lives, but
I think that's kind of a missionI have for myself. A legacy is
probably that I spent what timeI could trying to build

(01:17:58):
something better for others. Idon't know. I don't know that I
was a good mom, whatever thatlooks like. I don't know. I
haven't answered that yet. I'mgonna, I'll spend the next five
or 10 years figuring out whatthat should be. But, but I think
right now, my legacy, my purposefor life, whether it ends up
being a legacy to anybody elseor not, is that I did everything

(01:18:20):
I could to make sure otherpeople could have healthy and
prosperous lives.

Unknown (01:18:27):
I don't know if that'll amount

to a legacy, but it amounts to a mission for
me.

I think it's always those of us who are constantly
evolving and you know, I thinksome people just naturally are
always in this evolutionarymindset, and who are always
pushing you reach one onemountain. You're like, where's
the next mountain and where'sthe next thing that I get to

(01:18:55):
climb? And you're very much thatperson. And probably I am to an
extent too. And I think you whenwe talk about legacy, it is
important because we're here inthis world for such a short
time, and we take that forgranted. I think somehow we

(01:19:17):
think we're going to be hereforever, but actually you're
here like for nothing,

yeah. But I think the coolest legacy is
then, like, not what, but who doyou leave behind? You know what
I mean? Like, how if, if I'vedone this, you've touched
exactly like, if I've done thisright, there will be entire
families, communities and not Ilike, if we've done this right,
if we've genuinely said we'regoing to anchor women's health,
and we're going to ensure thatwe invest in climate resilience,

(01:19:43):
and we're going to look at we'regoing to ensure that, you know,
a girl can choose when she wantsto get married, and we're going
to make sure that people haveaccess to education regardless
of where they're born. And it'slike, if we've genuinely done
that right, then there areentire families and communities,
and that will exist, and thatwill be able to build out their.
Own opportunities, and you'llhave, you know, 10s of 1000s of

(01:20:04):
hundreds of 1000s of leaders,and there will be so but I don't
know if that amounts to mylegacy. I think that's more.
That's something I would love tosee happen in partnership with
everybody else who needs to helpmake it happen. And then I, when
I very selfishly, think of whatwould my legacy be, honestly, my
brain goes to my kids, and itgoes to like, I really just

Unknown (01:20:22):
want to be a good mom.
So no, I don't know what's yourlegacy, Tina,

you're not letting that go. I'm not, yeah, like I
said, I think for me, I Ithought a lot about it, right? I
don't, I don't have children.
I'm not married. But

Unknown (01:20:44):
I think the

whether we call it legacy, or you know what, what
you want to have left behindwhen you pass on from this part
of our journey on this earth, Ithink if I can continue to
create spaces that allow all thedifferent people in my life to
thrive and reach their fullpotential, then that would have

(01:21:10):
been a life well lived. Andwhether that shows up in me, you
know, pushing Donovan to dobetter, or me standing by a
friend in a difficult time, orme creating spaces like what we
have here at the Center forentrepreneurs to find their way
and to create communities thatwill make the world a better

(01:21:30):
place. Shows up in manydifferent ways. But I think for
me, it's all about creatingspace for those around me, those
I care about those I love, toreach their fullest potential. I

think you do that. I think you do that for
more than just the people youlove. And I think beyond that,
you also invest heavily in themwith time, with energy. I mean,
the work that you do onentrepreneurship with resources.
But I mean, I think aside fromthe center being a testament
your entire, I mean literally,your entire life is a testament
to the fact that you, you don'toccupy a space without opening a

(01:22:07):
door for others and you and you.
In fact, I think open doors forothers before you ever even
enter them for yourself. SoWell, I appreciate you well on
the way to fulfilling

I appreciate you saying that I don't know what it
is with podcast guests reversingthe podcast on me. Anyway,
anyway. I want to thank you somuch. Alep for joining us on
this episode of a legacy ofpurpose, and I can't wait for
this to be aired. I thinkconversations like this one
really remind me of theincredible importance of what

(01:22:42):
values based leadership reallyis, and how you embody that, and
how you show up in your work,and how you show up as a mom and
how you show up as a friend, andhow you show up as a visionary
fighting for women. And I thinkthat the impact that you have
had, and that you will continueto have in this world, is

(01:23:04):
something that I'm deeplygrateful for. So if you've
enjoyed this conversation,please subscribe and share it
with others, and you can findout more about episodes on
Spotify or on Apple, or you canjust come to our Legatum Center
website or YouTube channel,thank you again for listening
and looking forward to the nextepisode, soon to soon to be out.

(01:23:30):
Thank

you for having me. Dina, thank you.

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