January 19, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode, Kamala Rose and Nischala Joy Devi continue their deep dive into Chapter 2 of the Bhagavad Gita, exploring some of the most profound and transformative verses in this foundational chapter.
Key topics covered in this episode include:
- The importance of maintaining balance and equanimity in the face of pleasure and pain, as discussed in verse 215
- The nature of the self (Atman) as eternal, unchanging, and distinct from the temporary physical body, as elucidated in verses 16-18
- The mystical insights of the Upanishads and how they are woven into the Gita's teachings on the true nature of the self
- The role of yoga practice in cultivating the witness-consciousness that allows us to transcend the dualities of the material world
- Practical examples and personal anecdotes that illuminate the Gita's teachings on death, rebirth, and the immortality of the soul
- The importance of studying the lives and realizations of realized sages and saints, such as Ramana Maharshi, to deepen our understanding of the Gita's wisdom
Throughout the discussion, Kamala and Nischala offer their unique perspectives as experienced yoga teachers, drawing upon their decades of practice and study to shed light on the profound and transformative teachings of this timeless text.
Whether you are new to the Gita or a seasoned student, this episode promises to deepen your understanding of the nature of the self and the path of yoga as a means of transcending the suffering inherent in the human condition.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kamala Rose (00:04):
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita Podcast. I'm
Kamala rose,
Nischala Joy Devi (00:10):
I'm nistula Joy. Davey.
Kamala Rose (00:12):
Thank you all so much for joining us and for
making time to listen to ourpodcast. Today, we are
continuing our discussion ofchapter two, which serves as an
overview of the Bhagavad Gita.
Gives us a lot of the contextand philosophy that we'll be
(00:32):
following throughout the Gita,and we're picking up where we
left off last time after verse214 where we discussed the
chariot metaphor from the KathaUpanishad. In fact, for the
whole episode today, we're goingto be picking up there and
(00:53):
continuing our discussion ofsome of the most important
verses that we find in chaptertwo,
Nischala Joy Devi (01:06):
215 reminds us, if through pleasure and pain
and other dualities, one remainsbalanced, One is fit to reach
immortality. I think this isprobably one of the keys to not
only spiritual life, but also toliving our life, really, to how
(01:34):
can we maintain that balance?
Because pleasure and pain is soprevalent in every moment of our
life. One moment you get goodnews, the next moment you get
bad news, something goodhappens, something bad happens.
This is what we're talkingabout, the nature. This is the
prakriti This is the going backand forth, the the the never
(01:55):
ending cycle of movement. Buthere we're faced with it. And to
me, this is really somethingabout the mind. How can we
really things are going tohappen to us? No doubt, good
things, bad things, or how weperceive them as good and bad?
(02:16):
Maybe they're not good and maybethey're not bad. We never know
until the whole thing plays outhow it's going to end. But if we
look at this pleasure and pain,we're constantly going toward
this we want the pleasure, butwe avoid the pain, or we try to,
and it just doesn't work. Allthe other dualities we have to
(02:38):
remain balanced. And I thinkthis is the key to yoga
practice. And why we do yogapractice is to get that balance.
So when you finish a practice,whether it's 15 minutes or two
hours or whatever it is, there'sa sense sense of centeredness, a
sense of being in the middle ofeverything, and we are observing
(03:04):
the pleasure. We are observingthe pain, instead of being the
pleasure and the pain and beingknocked about. I always have
this image of being like in arock tumbler. We're constantly
being rocked one side or anotherfor this pleasure and pain, and
we seek it. So being morebalanced, it's not boring. And I
(03:26):
know a lot of people think itis. Balance is boring. It
actually isn't. Balance isrelaxation. You don't have to
worry about things, you don'thave to strive as much. You just
it's an acceptance, acceptancein balance.
Kamala Rose (03:47):
It's so important what you're saying, Nisha,
because this really sets theframework for why we practice,
why, why yoga exists as amethod. Its purpose is to
alleviate that suffering, thatDukkha of being buffered between
(04:07):
always striving to find the nextpleasurable experience and
avoiding the ones that we findthat are. Dukkha make us suffer
or are produce an uncomfortablemental state and unfortunately,
it defines so much of ourpersonalities, too, the things
(04:27):
we like, the things we dislike.
And when we're looking at thisbeginning part, and it's really
not the beginning beginning, butwe'll say the Krishnas initial
philosophical argument here inchapter two, he brings out this
idea of dualities, as in termsof addressing our Juna state,
(04:51):
he's having a Dukkha mentalstate, and it's causing him a
meltdown. We all know theseexperiences where we experience
suffering, and it's because ofthat experience of suffering
that we seek to get out of it.
We seek a remedy or a medicine.
And this is why yoga practice isso important, and it's
(05:14):
introduced here.
Nischala Joy Devi (05:17):
And that's the pleasure. That's what we go
for when we're in pain, we gofor pleasure, even though we
know that the pain may actuallycause more harm. So for
instance, if we're upset, one ofthe things that people like to
do is eat right? So they it's afulfillment. We feel empty in
(05:39):
some way, so we choose to fillit with food. But generally, the
food that we go to when we're inthis suka Duca phase, which, by
the way, I always call the sukaDuca twins. I really like them,
because they're one side of thecoin, the other side of the coin
is the same. It all leads to thesame place. So when we have this
(06:00):
suka Duka, what we generally dois choose things that aren't
good for us. So instead, if youfelt like eating something and
you sat down and you had anapple, maybe a pear, or
something like that, it's goodfor you. So even though you may
not be hungry or you may notneed it. It's good for you, but
(06:22):
when you turn it into somethingthat's very sugary and fatty, we
tend to eat so much more of it,and then it produces more of the
dukkha, the unhappiness, becausethen you don't feel well
afterwards. So this is somethingthat the mind does to the body.
The mind, does to social. Ifyou're unhappy, you may yell at
(06:45):
a friend. It's not their fault,but something they said just
bothered you in a littledifferent way, little wrong way,
and you yell at them now youhave to go back and apologize
and make up with your friend. Soall this is being caused because
we're out of balance. That's theonly reason. It's because we've
(07:07):
chosen things that aren't goodfor us rather than are good for
us. And you say, Well, this isthe Bhagavad Gita talking about
all these higher teachings andeverything, yes, but the higher
teachings are only reflected inour daily life. That's the only
way we can see them. You can'ttell if a person is elevated
(07:29):
until you see how they act, andespecially act toward themselves
and others. So this is a veryimportant point, this suka Duka,
and we see it everywhere. Yousee it everywhere. It's just,
it's it's even how you do anAsana. If you do an Asana in a
certain way, it could be sukha,or it could be Dukkha. Maybe it
(07:50):
feels good at the moment toreally, really stretch and
really, really pull it. But whathappens in an hour or two hours
or the next day when you can'tget out of bed because your back
hurts. So the initial sukhaturned to Dukkha.
Kamala Rose (08:08):
And this is a recurring theme throughout the
Gita, this idea of Sukkah Dukkhaas being the grounds of our
human experience, how we relateto property, how we relate to
nature, the phenomenal world,right? Sometimes we see it as
favorable, sometimes it'sunfavorable, but this is the
(08:30):
experience that we're having inthe next verse in 16 Krishna now
continues the dialog by saying,what is unmanifested can never
be what is will always be. Theknowledge of the real and the
unreal is held by seers. I mean,we this is, this? Is that gem of
(08:57):
Indian yogic philosophy thatsays spirit is one thing. Nature
is another element. We havethese two elements that coexist
as the world around us and asourselves, as a person, as a
locus of personality. And Ithink as he's as Krishna is
(09:20):
making his argument with ourJudah. He's saying, remember,
this phenomena is temporary.
This phenomena where you'reexperiencing dukkha, this is
temporary. What is not temporaryis what is numinous, or what is
the source? What is spirit? TheAtman? Yes. And here we begin
the teachings on the atman
Nischala Joy Devi (09:44):
this to me, one of my teachers is Ramana
Maharshi, and I think he reallytakes this one sloka and makes
it his entire. Sadhana, and heuses a practice that some of you
(10:06):
may have heard of. It's verysimple practice. It's called
neti, neti and not this, notthis. So basically, what he's
doing is he's adding a practiceto this wonderful sloka. Because
what we're seeing is, is thisreal? No, this isn't real. Is
this real? No, this also isn'treal. So instead of using those
(10:29):
words, he's just saying, Notthis, not that. So when, how can
we apply this to our own lives?
When we look at something wewant to know, is this going to
be here forever? Is thispermanent? One of the things
that just happened, which waskind of funny in a way, is I
just had, I was away, and I gota cold, and you can probably
(10:53):
still hear a little bit in myvoice, and we all know when
you're in the midst of a cold,it seems like it's never going
to end. You feel like you'regoing to die from it. You can't
breathe, you feel achy, you feelawful, and then somehow,
miraculously, within a week to10 days, you feel good again. If
(11:15):
we could remember this Netty,Netty right in the middle of it?
No, it's not this. It's notthis. It's not going to be
permanent. It's just here forsomething to slow us down, to
clean our bodies, for whateverreason you see it. It's not
permanent. And this goes formost of the things. The only
(11:40):
thing that's unchanging andpermanent Is that true self
within us. That's the only thingthat never changes. Once we can
understand that. It goes back tothe sloka before that, which
talks about we're always inbalance, because we know, no
matter how good it is, no matterhow bad it is, this too shall
(12:03):
pass.
Kamala Rose (12:09):
Well, you're speaking here about avidya, and
that idea that it is themisunderstanding, that original
misunderstanding of who, who Iam, who you are, who one is,
believing that I am this coldand that I am not forgetting
(12:32):
that I am the Atman. And thisoriginal misunderstanding is now
what drives us into thedualities now to try to fix
through raga and vaisha, exactlythe clay have that sense of
individuation asmita that tellsus this person is having a bad
(12:54):
experience, and we somehowbelieve that what is temporary
is eternal. Yes, our mindsconvince us of this, and this is
the cause of our suffering, andwhy we have come to rely on the
path of yoga to alleviate thatsuffering.
Nischala Joy Devi (13:13):
That's the initial seed planted the AVID in
the clashes. It's the first one,because that gives birth to all
the other ones. So if we don'tunderstand in the beginning, or
as I put it in the sutras, we'reinnocent of our nature. We don't
(13:34):
even know it exists. We don'teven think of it. It's not even
an option until we understandthat we have that part of us,
all the other classes will taketake root, including the one
that we're getting to on thisone. So the kleshas just to go
(13:54):
over them, avidya, in the senseof our divine nature, a Smitha,
undue trust in the individualself. This is what's happening
here. We're trusting theindividual self over the
knowledge that we know issupreme raga and divesha. You
were just talking about those,the excess fondness for fleeting
(14:17):
pleasure and the excessavoidance of unpleasant
experiences. They're part of us.
We have the pleasant and theunpleasant. Bear them equally,
is what we're being taught. Bearthem equally. Don't go to the
pleasure and push away the pain,because the pain will come back
stronger. Look at them. Andthen, if you can, like Ramana
(14:41):
Maharshi, analyze them. What didI do to get in this situation?
And more importantly, how do Iget out of it?
Kamala Rose (14:53):
And that final clay show of abini vaish fear, yes,
this, these things keep us. In.
And I love the picture that Mr.
Rama Swami, when I read thesutras with him, presented that
a video is like a Petri dishthat all the rest of the clashes
(15:13):
grow in. And we exactly we have,you know, quite a culture, a
personality culture, Psych ofour psyches going on and the
path to understanding is exactlywhat you're teaching and
reminding us of nishala is selfinquiry. Who is experiencing Who
(15:36):
is this that's experiencingpain, pleasure, fear, who
believes themselves to be anindividual. This is really the
basis, continuing basis for thefor the yogic path and the
ongoing dialog here in the GitaI'm going to go to the next Oh,
(15:59):
you go ahead.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:00):
I just wanted to when you were saying that
what it what it triggered in mymind, was people saying, well, I
don't, I don't really understandthat. I How could it not be? How
could it be there? And we don'tknow. Well, let's go to a very
simple example of havingsomething taken off your arm by
a physician, right? So what dothey do? The very first thing?
(16:24):
Well, the very first thing theydo is clean it, but this next
thing they do is numb it. Sothey'll take and they'll put
local anesthesia in your arm,right? And then they begin to
take it off, whether by burningor cutting or however they do
stop next time that happens, andthink to yourself, why don't I
(16:46):
feel pain? Now, where did thepain go? Right? Because if he
would, if he or she would, thephysician would do the same
thing. On the other arm, you'dbe screaming in pain. So that
little bit of anesthesiadetached us from any pain that
(17:08):
we may feel in the arm, justlike we have practices that
detach us from any pain we mayfeel in the mind, and that helps
us keep our balance, becausewe're not screaming in pain from
the cutting of our arm, becausewe don't feel it. We're detached
(17:29):
from it. It's the same thinghere.
Kamala Rose (17:32):
Anyone who's been through any type of ongoing
medical treatment knows aconstant mantra that rolls
through, this too will pass,right? This too will pass. And I
think just that, just that basicunderstanding that we learn from
the yoga Vidya is by nature,property nature. It is
(17:59):
temporary. Its nature is tochange once we have that
understanding and thatconsciousness within us, the
soul, the spirit, however weconsider the Atman. What is?
What is essential to oneselfbeing alive, this is permanent,
and is this is the one who'shaving the experience of
(18:23):
something temporary, but beingable to have that, that
objectivity, where we canclearly view, as we're always
saying, as the witness, right?
The Atman is the witness, theone who's just observing, who's
not involved in the drama of itthis. This is really a great way
of seeing that kind of numbingthat we can we can give
(18:48):
ourselves a little space fromthe suffering of everyday life
and the things that we all haveto endure, and find solace in
the self. Krishna says in verse17, the indwelling one is
eternal and immeasurable. Thewhole universe is
(19:11):
indestructible. The body ismortal, but the indwelling one
is immortal. It cannot bedestroyed. That's 17 and 18.
Here's 18 in the Sanskritantavanta e may De ha nityas
yoke, daha sharirana, anashi noprameya, tasmad, yud yasva
(19:37):
Bharata, having an end thesebodies, these day has the body
the that's one of the ways theAtman is referred to as the body
wearer, one who's wearing thebody. These are nityas. They are
uh. They're temporary. They comeand go. The Eternal One who is
(20:01):
embodied inside of the body,inside of the sharira, is
indestructible. Anashino, it isimmeasurable, and he gives the
imperative. Therefore, carry on.
Arjuna, don't be, don't bedisturbed by this suffering.
(20:23):
Carry on. Now that youunderstand this, carry on.
Nischala Joy Devi (20:29):
There's another aspect also when you say
this, that comes to me becausehaving been in medicine for so
many years and seen people inthe operating room, under under
anesthesia. One of the thingsthat I found is you could
actually talk to the people, andthey couldn't talk back, of
(20:50):
course, but they could followinstructions. For instance, if
we would say, withdraw the bloodfrom this area because they're
cutting at this point, we wouldsuddenly see the blood being
withdrawn from the area, and weand I would stand there, and I
would wonder, Who am I talkingto, and who is listening, and
(21:15):
who was the doer, in this case,who's actually Moving the blood
away from the site. So when wewhen I read this, and when I
really go into the Gita, it'sexplaining to me who I'm talking
to, who is in there, who'slistening, and who has the power
(21:37):
over the body to help it heal.
And this, I think, is a wholeidea of holistic medicine that
we've now brought into the worldwith the help of these ancient
scriptures, because we're seeingthat we don't have to succumb to
all the things that were said tosuccumb to and we do have
(22:00):
certain amount of control overit. So the indweller is eternal,
and it wants to use this body aslong as it possibly can for its
mission here on Earth. So ourjob is just to listen and keep
it healthy in that way. Sothat's that's my experience of
(22:21):
this, even though it may not bein a strict spiritual sense, but
when someone is undergoing amedical procedure, it is a
spiritual experience in a lot ofways.
Kamala Rose (22:38):
It's one of the times that we are so detached
from the body in this way andliterally, literally, I know the
medieval alchemists did a lot ofthought in this area, trying to
understand, how is it that youcould be immobile and yet still
(23:02):
alive. And it we're talkingabout a mystery here, and I
think it's important to kind ofhold it in the place of a
mystery, right? And not be soanalytical like I am sometimes
about about how all of thisworks together. We're Krishna is
really bringing up this idea ofthe mystery of the spirit, the
(23:26):
the part that animates the body,but is not the personality, is
the the indwelling one. Nowthese verses are, are really
taken from inspired by also theKatha Upanishad and we know that
the seers of the Upanishadsdelve deeply into the subject
(23:50):
of, what is it that ispermanent, what is it that is
temporary? You know, they werethe and it was their revelations
that we find in the Upanishadsabout the transcendence of the
self. From the Katha Upanishadwe're looking at some, you know,
(24:11):
some, some beautiful versesbetween a dialog, again, a
dialog here, between the studentand death is teaching him. This
is how it works, death. Yamasays the primeval one is hard to
perceive, wrapped in mystery,hidden in a cave, residing
(24:35):
within an impenetrable depth.
This is the insight to be known.
And here in the Bhagavad Gita,these great insights from the
Upanishads are put, put beforeus as the goal to strive to this
mysterious knowledge of the selfof spirit of. The numinous is
(25:03):
what is to be known and yet hardto perceive and known through
the heart.
Nischala Joy Devi (25:11):
I think we have to remember also that we're
reading the Gita now throughit's not a book that you read
through and put back on theshelf. It's something that you
constantly read because you'reevolving. And every time we
evolve, the slokas that we read,or if you're reading the Sutras,
(25:33):
the sutures that we read, ifyou're reading the Bible, the
lines that you read, speak to usdifferently because we have
matured, we understand things.
There's even the beautiful partin the Bible. I think it's in
the Old Testament, it says, WhenI was a child, I spoke as a
child, I understood as a child,right? Because that's how a
(25:54):
child thinks. But then when Igrew up, I put aside these
childish things, and Iunderstood things in a different
way, and this is what'shappening. So if this
immediately doesn't speak toyou, and you say, wait a minute,
I don't know all this real andunreal thing, don't throw it
away. Just put it aside and say,Okay, maybe in another year,
(26:19):
maybe six months, maybe twoyears. Who knows? There's no
time on it. I'll pick it upagain. Maybe then it will make
more sense to me.
Kamala Rose (26:32):
This is such important advice, because
sometimes people are they findit difficult to, you know, to
grasp this sort of mysteriousnature, especially since we're
going between verses that say,therefore, fight, stand up like
a man exactly, then the self istranscendent. These are
(26:56):
juxtaposed in the Gita. It makesit, makes it a little difficult
to penetrate. So I know that forboth of us, this is a purpose of
doing this podcast is to try tohelp this, help make this a
little more accessible to somany of our friends and
(27:17):
colleagues in the yoga communitywho who would love to love the
Gita. But find some of thislanguage a bit arcane. The these
verses that are that are takenfrom the Upanishads and we find
(27:39):
here in chapter two, are reallymeant to be an incredible
inspiration to us, meant tostate something as simply as
possible, that there is a statebeyond the ordinary mundane
life. There's a state beyondsuffering. And this is the
(27:59):
purpose of yoga practice is toachieve this.
Nischala Joy Devi (28:04):
I think one of the things that we've tried
to do in our translation is makeit palatable for everyone,
because when we talk about theindwelling one, you can name it
anything you want or not. That'sthe beauty of it. No one has the
monopoly on the name or theform. It's just, it's this
(28:28):
essence, this spirit, whatfinding word is so difficult,
but it's, it's that which wewere just speaking about, that
motivates the body, thatmotivates the mind, that
motivates the intellect, thatkeeps us moving in this world,
that we have no idea why we'rehere, but it keeps us going
(28:50):
because it knows why we're here.
It's but it's not telling. Sothere's this constant movement.
You say, Why did I even do that?
I don't even think about why Idid that. You did it because
there was something in you thatwas moving that forward. So find
it in your heart. It's there.
Look for it. It's thatindwelling Spirit that we each
(29:14):
have. And the other thing thatshould not be a secret. It's the
same in all of us, no matterwhat you call it, no matter what
it looks like, it's still theessence of the same, and that
makes us all one. So when weread this and it says we're all
one, you say, Yeah, well, shelooks different than me, and he
(29:35):
looks different than her, and hetalks a different language.
That's not what they're talkingabout. They're talking about
this essence, and they describeit so exquisitely and
eloquently. Let's read more ofwhat they have to say about it.
Kamala Rose (29:55):
The self is not born, nor does it ever die after
having. Been, does it cease notto be unborn, eternal,
changeless and ancient. It doesnot die. When the body dies.
Nischala Joy Devi (30:11):
Isn't that beautiful?
Kamala Rose (30:12):
I just it's beautiful. Yes, it
Nischala Joy Devi (30:16):
goes back and forth. It's so poetic this.
There's some places to me in theGita that are more poetic, and
this is definitely one of them.
It's not born, nor does it everdie. So immediately you stop,
then that's enough for alifetime meditation. Just, let
me just say that first part youcould meditate on that for the
(30:36):
rest of your life and try tounderstand, but not with the
mind, with that essential partof us. What does that mean?
After having been it does notcease to be unborn, eternal,
changeless and ancient. It doesnot die when the body dies. So
(30:57):
this is a lot of what has beentold to us in so many different
ways, whether we talk about itas dust to dust, ashes to ashes,
they're talking about the body.
They're not talking about thespirit, and we they the Spirit,
will have eternal peace. So eachtradition has tried to describe
(31:22):
this in a particular way. And I,personally, I think one of the
most eloquent ways is here inthe Gita. It's just very simply
put and and also poeticunderstanding the 20
understanding that itself isbirthless, deathless, real and
(31:44):
imperishable. How would itperish when the body dies?
Getting back to the teacher,Ramana Maharshi, those of you
who don't know about him, pleaselook him up. He was pretty
extraordinary in who he was, andat the end of his toward the end
of his life, he had a cancer onhis arm, and they begged him to
(32:10):
have the cancer removed. And hehe said, No, it's It's supposed
to be there. That's why it'sthere. There's a reason for it.
And even there were littlemaggots that would come and eat
the dead cells, and they wouldfall and he would pick them up
and put them back on the sorewell, people thought he was
crazy, and we probably wouldtoo, but most people called him
(32:33):
a saint. So here we have againthis and he would always say,
and they said him, Oh Master,please don't leave us. Don't go
anywhere. And he would look atthem and say, Where would I go?
There's no place to go. This isit. There's I have no place to
go. Even when the body dies, thespirit still remains. Don't
(32:59):
Don't mourn for me, because I'mnot going anywhere. So again,
taking this and putting it backinto the everyday teachings is
so powerful,
Kamala Rose (33:13):
truly, and what we're talking about a different
kind of insight, a mysticalinsight, sometimes called a
Gnostic insight, an insight thattranscends the ordinary world.
The knowledge of mystics likeRamana Maharshi are exceptional.
(33:33):
We read about those who haveknown this in such a an
uncompromising way. And I knowin my life with my guru, I saw
this in 100 different ways, ofjust an acceptance of conditions
the way they are, withoutfighting against it, without
(33:58):
constantly trying to change theworld to make you happy, exactly
fighting against conditions theway they are. But you know, when
you were saying that nishila, Iwas also reminded of, I'll say,
the role of conventionalreligion, of almost trying to
(34:19):
keep this secret. I think it'sone of the things I love so much
about the Gita is that it'sstated right up front. Here's
the here's the knowledge thatyou are the divine. Yeah, that
that, that tattva must see thatmystical insight of the
Upanishads. You are, thateveryone is that we are all
(34:42):
that. And I'm reminded that atat many different times
throughout history, this wasthere was a Sufi saint called
Hafiz who openly declared, I amthe divine. He realized this,
and I. He was he was killed forhaving this knowledge, this
(35:03):
mystical insight, is rare, andin order, if everyone knew this,
the world would be an entirelydifferent place, and our
religious organizations wouldn'thave so much control of people
if everyone knew themselves tobe the divine. So mystical
(35:24):
insight throughout history hasit's a controversial subject in
the livingness of it, and peoplewho have this don't live in
ordinary society. Can't, youcan't to maintain this really
requires, it's saying no tocraving, saying no to avoiding
(35:47):
the things that we dislike, aradical acceptance of the way
things are.
Nischala Joy Devi (35:54):
Can I tell you a really fun fact about
Romano a harshi, please? When hestarted to have these
revelations, he moved into acave. He started living in a
cave, and he invited his motherto come live with him in the
cave. And she did, and the twoof them sat there and went into
(36:15):
deep states of consciousnesstogether, apart and together,
which I think is amazing. Herealized the source from which
he came in both aspects, in themystical aspect and also in the
human aspect, by inviting hisphysical mother to come there
(36:36):
with him. So I think to me this,the sorrow that I see today with
a lot of incoming yoga students,is they're not they're not
seeing the saints, they're notlistening to the mystics. And it
has become, Yoga has become avery much a physical or a
(36:57):
material practice, rather thanwhat it is intended for as this
very esoteric and mysticalpractice, and I think defining
it for me at least, what thatmeans is something that is
mystical cannot really beexplained by Physical
characteristics and physicalways, is something that trans
(37:22):
transcends all that and becomessomething, another entity in
itself, and that's the mystical,and it's something that can't be
proven, and it really most ofthe time, cannot be spoken, most
of the time. What you'll see ifsomeone has a mystical
revelation is just this verysimple smile on their face of
(37:46):
inner contentment. Sentosa withthat. So read about these
people. They they they'll giveyou insight into what you're
experiencing now too. They werevery generous with their
explanations and their teachingsand take advantage of it, is
what I would say,
Kamala Rose (38:06):
Julie, it's really, it's really great advice,
because we are finding such atrend of the heavy emphasis on
the physical and understandinghow, how how Hatha Yoga has come
to us at this point in history.
Where did it come from? How didit develop all of this? And you
know, it's, it's, it's wonderfulto understand, but we have to
(38:30):
remember that there's a muchbigger picture with the purpose
of yoga. There's a there's areason that these practices of
standing on one leg, forexample, were passed down to us
today, and it doesn't haveanything to do with performance
or competition in the classroom,and we certainly could benefit a
(38:53):
lot from this today. Theseverses, again, are taken right
from the Kathu Upanishad chaptertwo, the wise one is not born
and does not die. Has come from,has not come from anywhere, has
not become anyone. This one isunborn, eternal, primeval and
(39:17):
everlasting and is not killedwhen the body is killed, simple
ways of expressing a mysticalinsight that transcends really
what we know and how we operatein our ordinary lives. This is
the main argument for for thenext chapters, for the rest of
(39:46):
the Gita, is this initialdistinction that consciousness
is not matter. Matter is whatconsciousness is observing. Mm.
Yeah, having a sense ofdetachment or witnessing of
nature as we experience itsubjectively is what the tools
of yoga enable us to do. This isreally the purpose of our asana
(40:13):
practice, is to help to quietdown, help to eliminate some of
that systemic rajas,changeability and irritability
and inflammation and passions inthe body, pranayama to help to
eliminate some of that systemicTamas of tiredness and apathy in
(40:35):
the body, so that we can trainourselves to have a lighter,
more transparent inner space, towitness more clearly.
Nischala Joy Devi (40:52):
The next part, I think, is something I've
used quite a bit. And how have Iused it well as a swami and as a
minister, I was called upon todo memorial services. And being
of a yoga lineage, and havingpracticed for so long, it was
(41:18):
natural for me to go to a yogicbook instead of one of the other
great books that there are. AndI must say that when I read
these passages, at first, Ireally wondered how these people
would react to it, because itwasn't the person that I knew
(41:39):
that I was talking to, becausethey were already on their way
to another dimension. But it wasthe families, it was the
friends, it was the community ofthat person. And how would they
react to this? And when I wouldread something as the next
couple slokas, I don't we didn'tdo 21 yet.
Kamala Rose (42:06):
No, if the soul, we sort of lumped that into the
last one. So
Nischala Joy Devi (42:11):
let me just read that again, because it goes
with the other it's a question,is the soul indestructible,
eternal? If I'm sorry, if thesoul is indestructible, eternal,
unborn and unchanging, how thencould it be destroyed? Well, it
can't be and then the 22 goesinto probably one of the famous
(42:36):
slokas of the Gita. You may haveheard this one before, just as
one casts off worn out clothesand puts on new ones, so also
the self throws away its wornout bodies and takes on new
ones. Weapons cannot cut, firecannot burn, water cannot wet,
(43:00):
wind cannot dry it. And thenthey go on again. It cannot be
cut, burnt, wetted or dried up.
It is eternal, all pervading,firm, immovable and ancient. So
when we look at these threeslokas, when I look at them, it
gives me of sense that there issomething more that we did take
(43:22):
in these clothes. And, you know,there's many movies that have
shown this. Now, we zip off ourphysical bodies, and we have
we're a body of lightunderneath. There have been many
books. There was a book manyyears ago, I think was Ken Keyes
at the time, and he wrote thetitle, remember, was something
(43:44):
that got to me, and it said,it's a crack in the cosmic egg.
And to me, that just showed methat the inside the egg there's
that's where the life is. It'snot in the shell that cracks,
that goes away, same with us,this body. And look at yourself.
(44:06):
Remember how you look 10 yearsago. Remember how you look now.
Look at your children. How didthey look two years ago? How do
they look now? It's not thesame. And as soon as we're born,
the body starts to decay anddie. That's the nature of it.
It's like a fruit. The minuteyou pick it. It may be ripe, but
(44:27):
keep it for a few days. Keep itfor a few weeks. It starts to
decay, but what's inside thebody? That's what we're talking
about this is just another wayof describing it. So when you
say this to the the family ofsomeone who has just been lost
to them that's so loving anddear that they think that they
(44:52):
may have gone to oblivion,letting them know, no they've
cast. Off their worn out body,and now they've gone on. You
know, the most extraordinarything I ever heard after doing a
service like this is my friend'sfather. She was a great yogi.
(45:13):
Her father was not and he cameup to me after the memorial, and
he looked at me, and I was alittle nervous to tell you the
truth, because I didn't know howhe'd react very middle of the
road person. And he looked at meand he said, You know, I never
(45:34):
thought I'd feel joy at mydaughter's Memorial, but you
have made that and I said, it'sthe Bhagavata. It explained it
in a way that your heart couldhear it. So I think that this is
not just wisdom, but it'spractical wisdom also that we
(45:55):
can live our lives each day,
Kamala Rose (46:01):
answering the profound questions of the human
condition, and right here, inchapter two, we're addressing
some of these big ones. That's abeautiful story. Nisha, thank
you for sharing that with us. Ialso find it life affirming in a
(46:22):
way that that death can be verylife affirming, teaching us that
this is not everything, however,it is everything to you right
now, and these verses describingreincarnation. Give us a sense
(46:44):
of the ancient nature of thespirit that we have been here
before and we will be hereagain. This is why we practice
yoga. Is so that we canhopefully make our completions,
and when it's time to pass, ourminds are no longer attached to
(47:08):
this world. I think it's a goodtime for us to wrap up this
episode of our podcast. We'll becontinuing through addressing
some of the main themes ofchapter two as we continue, and
we just want to thank everyonefor subscribing and listening to
(47:31):
our podcast. It gives us a lotof happiness and hope for the
Gita and for the understandingof yoga when we see how many of
you have listened to our podcastand and shared it with others.
So we are so grateful to all ofour friends and colleagues in
(47:52):
the yoga community for makingthis podcast what it is.
Nischala Joy Devi (47:57):
Remember Knowledge is power. Thank you,
namaste. Thank.
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita Podcast. I'm
Kamala rose,
Nischala Joy Devi (00:10):
I'm nistula Joy. Davey.
Kamala Rose (00:12):
Thank you all so much for joining us and for
making time to listen to ourpodcast. Today, we are
continuing our discussion ofchapter two, which serves as an
overview of the Bhagavad Gita.
Gives us a lot of the contextand philosophy that we'll be
(00:32):
following throughout the Gita,and we're picking up where we
left off last time after verse214 where we discussed the
chariot metaphor from the KathaUpanishad. In fact, for the
whole episode today, we're goingto be picking up there and
(00:53):
continuing our discussion ofsome of the most important
verses that we find in chaptertwo,
Nischala Joy Devi (01:06):
215 reminds us, if through pleasure and pain
and other dualities, one remainsbalanced, One is fit to reach
immortality. I think this isprobably one of the keys to not
only spiritual life, but also toliving our life, really, to how
(01:34):
can we maintain that balance?
Because pleasure and pain is soprevalent in every moment of our
life. One moment you get goodnews, the next moment you get
bad news, something goodhappens, something bad happens.
This is what we're talkingabout, the nature. This is the
prakriti This is the going backand forth, the the the never
(01:55):
ending cycle of movement. Buthere we're faced with it. And to
me, this is really somethingabout the mind. How can we
really things are going tohappen to us? No doubt, good
things, bad things, or how weperceive them as good and bad?
(02:16):
Maybe they're not good and maybethey're not bad. We never know
until the whole thing plays outhow it's going to end. But if we
look at this pleasure and pain,we're constantly going toward
this we want the pleasure, butwe avoid the pain, or we try to,
and it just doesn't work. Allthe other dualities we have to
(02:38):
remain balanced. And I thinkthis is the key to yoga
practice. And why we do yogapractice is to get that balance.
So when you finish a practice,whether it's 15 minutes or two
hours or whatever it is, there'sa sense sense of centeredness, a
sense of being in the middle ofeverything, and we are observing
(03:04):
the pleasure. We are observingthe pain, instead of being the
pleasure and the pain and beingknocked about. I always have
this image of being like in arock tumbler. We're constantly
being rocked one side or anotherfor this pleasure and pain, and
we seek it. So being morebalanced, it's not boring. And I
(03:26):
know a lot of people think itis. Balance is boring. It
actually isn't. Balance isrelaxation. You don't have to
worry about things, you don'thave to strive as much. You just
it's an acceptance, acceptancein balance.
Kamala Rose (03:47):
It's so important what you're saying, Nisha,
because this really sets theframework for why we practice,
why, why yoga exists as amethod. Its purpose is to
alleviate that suffering, thatDukkha of being buffered between
(04:07):
always striving to find the nextpleasurable experience and
avoiding the ones that we findthat are. Dukkha make us suffer
or are produce an uncomfortablemental state and unfortunately,
it defines so much of ourpersonalities, too, the things
(04:27):
we like, the things we dislike.
And when we're looking at thisbeginning part, and it's really
not the beginning beginning, butwe'll say the Krishnas initial
philosophical argument here inchapter two, he brings out this
idea of dualities, as in termsof addressing our Juna state,
(04:51):
he's having a Dukkha mentalstate, and it's causing him a
meltdown. We all know theseexperiences where we experience
suffering, and it's because ofthat experience of suffering
that we seek to get out of it.
We seek a remedy or a medicine.
And this is why yoga practice isso important, and it's
(05:14):
introduced here.
Nischala Joy Devi (05:17):
And that's the pleasure. That's what we go
for when we're in pain, we gofor pleasure, even though we
know that the pain may actuallycause more harm. So for
instance, if we're upset, one ofthe things that people like to
do is eat right? So they it's afulfillment. We feel empty in
(05:39):
some way, so we choose to fillit with food. But generally, the
food that we go to when we're inthis suka Duca phase, which, by
the way, I always call the sukaDuca twins. I really like them,
because they're one side of thecoin, the other side of the coin
is the same. It all leads to thesame place. So when we have this
(06:00):
suka Duka, what we generally dois choose things that aren't
good for us. So instead, if youfelt like eating something and
you sat down and you had anapple, maybe a pear, or
something like that, it's goodfor you. So even though you may
not be hungry or you may notneed it. It's good for you, but
(06:22):
when you turn it into somethingthat's very sugary and fatty, we
tend to eat so much more of it,and then it produces more of the
dukkha, the unhappiness, becausethen you don't feel well
afterwards. So this is somethingthat the mind does to the body.
The mind, does to social. Ifyou're unhappy, you may yell at
(06:45):
a friend. It's not their fault,but something they said just
bothered you in a littledifferent way, little wrong way,
and you yell at them now youhave to go back and apologize
and make up with your friend. Soall this is being caused because
we're out of balance. That's theonly reason. It's because we've
(07:07):
chosen things that aren't goodfor us rather than are good for
us. And you say, Well, this isthe Bhagavad Gita talking about
all these higher teachings andeverything, yes, but the higher
teachings are only reflected inour daily life. That's the only
way we can see them. You can'ttell if a person is elevated
(07:29):
until you see how they act, andespecially act toward themselves
and others. So this is a veryimportant point, this suka Duka,
and we see it everywhere. Yousee it everywhere. It's just,
it's it's even how you do anAsana. If you do an Asana in a
certain way, it could be sukha,or it could be Dukkha. Maybe it
(07:50):
feels good at the moment toreally, really stretch and
really, really pull it. But whathappens in an hour or two hours
or the next day when you can'tget out of bed because your back
hurts. So the initial sukhaturned to Dukkha.
Kamala Rose (08:08):
And this is a recurring theme throughout the
Gita, this idea of Sukkah Dukkhaas being the grounds of our
human experience, how we relateto property, how we relate to
nature, the phenomenal world,right? Sometimes we see it as
favorable, sometimes it'sunfavorable, but this is the
(08:30):
experience that we're having inthe next verse in 16 Krishna now
continues the dialog by saying,what is unmanifested can never
be what is will always be. Theknowledge of the real and the
unreal is held by seers. I mean,we this is, this? Is that gem of
(08:57):
Indian yogic philosophy thatsays spirit is one thing. Nature
is another element. We havethese two elements that coexist
as the world around us and asourselves, as a person, as a
locus of personality. And Ithink as he's as Krishna is
(09:20):
making his argument with ourJudah. He's saying, remember,
this phenomena is temporary.
This phenomena where you'reexperiencing dukkha, this is
temporary. What is not temporaryis what is numinous, or what is
the source? What is spirit? TheAtman? Yes. And here we begin
the teachings on the atman
Nischala Joy Devi (09:44):
this to me, one of my teachers is Ramana
Maharshi, and I think he reallytakes this one sloka and makes
it his entire. Sadhana, and heuses a practice that some of you
(10:06):
may have heard of. It's verysimple practice. It's called
neti, neti and not this, notthis. So basically, what he's
doing is he's adding a practiceto this wonderful sloka. Because
what we're seeing is, is thisreal? No, this isn't real. Is
this real? No, this also isn'treal. So instead of using those
(10:29):
words, he's just saying, Notthis, not that. So when, how can
we apply this to our own lives?
When we look at something wewant to know, is this going to
be here forever? Is thispermanent? One of the things
that just happened, which waskind of funny in a way, is I
just had, I was away, and I gota cold, and you can probably
(10:53):
still hear a little bit in myvoice, and we all know when
you're in the midst of a cold,it seems like it's never going
to end. You feel like you'regoing to die from it. You can't
breathe, you feel achy, you feelawful, and then somehow,
miraculously, within a week to10 days, you feel good again. If
(11:15):
we could remember this Netty,Netty right in the middle of it?
No, it's not this. It's notthis. It's not going to be
permanent. It's just here forsomething to slow us down, to
clean our bodies, for whateverreason you see it. It's not
permanent. And this goes formost of the things. The only
(11:40):
thing that's unchanging andpermanent Is that true self
within us. That's the only thingthat never changes. Once we can
understand that. It goes back tothe sloka before that, which
talks about we're always inbalance, because we know, no
matter how good it is, no matterhow bad it is, this too shall
(12:03):
pass.
Kamala Rose (12:09):
Well, you're speaking here about avidya, and
that idea that it is themisunderstanding, that original
misunderstanding of who, who Iam, who you are, who one is,
believing that I am this coldand that I am not forgetting
(12:32):
that I am the Atman. And thisoriginal misunderstanding is now
what drives us into thedualities now to try to fix
through raga and vaisha, exactlythe clay have that sense of
individuation asmita that tellsus this person is having a bad
(12:54):
experience, and we somehowbelieve that what is temporary
is eternal. Yes, our mindsconvince us of this, and this is
the cause of our suffering, andwhy we have come to rely on the
path of yoga to alleviate thatsuffering.
Nischala Joy Devi (13:13):
That's the initial seed planted the AVID in
the clashes. It's the first one,because that gives birth to all
the other ones. So if we don'tunderstand in the beginning, or
as I put it in the sutras, we'reinnocent of our nature. We don't
(13:34):
even know it exists. We don'teven think of it. It's not even
an option until we understandthat we have that part of us,
all the other classes will taketake root, including the one
that we're getting to on thisone. So the kleshas just to go
(13:54):
over them, avidya, in the senseof our divine nature, a Smitha,
undue trust in the individualself. This is what's happening
here. We're trusting theindividual self over the
knowledge that we know issupreme raga and divesha. You
were just talking about those,the excess fondness for fleeting
(14:17):
pleasure and the excessavoidance of unpleasant
experiences. They're part of us.
We have the pleasant and theunpleasant. Bear them equally,
is what we're being taught. Bearthem equally. Don't go to the
pleasure and push away the pain,because the pain will come back
stronger. Look at them. Andthen, if you can, like Ramana
(14:41):
Maharshi, analyze them. What didI do to get in this situation?
And more importantly, how do Iget out of it?
Kamala Rose (14:53):
And that final clay show of abini vaish fear, yes,
this, these things keep us. In.
And I love the picture that Mr.
Rama Swami, when I read thesutras with him, presented that
a video is like a Petri dishthat all the rest of the clashes
(15:13):
grow in. And we exactly we have,you know, quite a culture, a
personality culture, Psych ofour psyches going on and the
path to understanding is exactlywhat you're teaching and
reminding us of nishala is selfinquiry. Who is experiencing Who
(15:36):
is this that's experiencingpain, pleasure, fear, who
believes themselves to be anindividual. This is really the
basis, continuing basis for thefor the yogic path and the
ongoing dialog here in the GitaI'm going to go to the next Oh,
(15:59):
you go ahead.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:00):
I just wanted to when you were saying that
what it what it triggered in mymind, was people saying, well, I
don't, I don't really understandthat. I How could it not be? How
could it be there? And we don'tknow. Well, let's go to a very
simple example of havingsomething taken off your arm by
a physician, right? So what dothey do? The very first thing?
(16:24):
Well, the very first thing theydo is clean it, but this next
thing they do is numb it. Sothey'll take and they'll put
local anesthesia in your arm,right? And then they begin to
take it off, whether by burningor cutting or however they do
stop next time that happens, andthink to yourself, why don't I
(16:46):
feel pain? Now, where did thepain go? Right? Because if he
would, if he or she would, thephysician would do the same
thing. On the other arm, you'dbe screaming in pain. So that
little bit of anesthesiadetached us from any pain that
(17:08):
we may feel in the arm, justlike we have practices that
detach us from any pain we mayfeel in the mind, and that helps
us keep our balance, becausewe're not screaming in pain from
the cutting of our arm, becausewe don't feel it. We're detached
(17:29):
from it. It's the same thinghere.
Kamala Rose (17:32):
Anyone who's been through any type of ongoing
medical treatment knows aconstant mantra that rolls
through, this too will pass,right? This too will pass. And I
think just that, just that basicunderstanding that we learn from
the yoga Vidya is by nature,property nature. It is
(17:59):
temporary. Its nature is tochange once we have that
understanding and thatconsciousness within us, the
soul, the spirit, however weconsider the Atman. What is?
What is essential to oneselfbeing alive, this is permanent,
and is this is the one who'shaving the experience of
(18:23):
something temporary, but beingable to have that, that
objectivity, where we canclearly view, as we're always
saying, as the witness, right?
The Atman is the witness, theone who's just observing, who's
not involved in the drama of itthis. This is really a great way
of seeing that kind of numbingthat we can we can give
(18:48):
ourselves a little space fromthe suffering of everyday life
and the things that we all haveto endure, and find solace in
the self. Krishna says in verse17, the indwelling one is
eternal and immeasurable. Thewhole universe is
(19:11):
indestructible. The body ismortal, but the indwelling one
is immortal. It cannot bedestroyed. That's 17 and 18.
Here's 18 in the Sanskritantavanta e may De ha nityas
yoke, daha sharirana, anashi noprameya, tasmad, yud yasva
(19:37):
Bharata, having an end thesebodies, these day has the body
the that's one of the ways theAtman is referred to as the body
wearer, one who's wearing thebody. These are nityas. They are
uh. They're temporary. They comeand go. The Eternal One who is
(20:01):
embodied inside of the body,inside of the sharira, is
indestructible. Anashino, it isimmeasurable, and he gives the
imperative. Therefore, carry on.
Arjuna, don't be, don't bedisturbed by this suffering.
(20:23):
Carry on. Now that youunderstand this, carry on.
Nischala Joy Devi (20:29):
There's another aspect also when you say
this, that comes to me becausehaving been in medicine for so
many years and seen people inthe operating room, under under
anesthesia. One of the thingsthat I found is you could
actually talk to the people, andthey couldn't talk back, of
(20:50):
course, but they could followinstructions. For instance, if
we would say, withdraw the bloodfrom this area because they're
cutting at this point, we wouldsuddenly see the blood being
withdrawn from the area, and weand I would stand there, and I
would wonder, Who am I talkingto, and who is listening, and
(21:15):
who was the doer, in this case,who's actually Moving the blood
away from the site. So when wewhen I read this, and when I
really go into the Gita, it'sexplaining to me who I'm talking
to, who is in there, who'slistening, and who has the power
(21:37):
over the body to help it heal.
And this, I think, is a wholeidea of holistic medicine that
we've now brought into the worldwith the help of these ancient
scriptures, because we're seeingthat we don't have to succumb to
all the things that were said tosuccumb to and we do have
(22:00):
certain amount of control overit. So the indweller is eternal,
and it wants to use this body aslong as it possibly can for its
mission here on Earth. So ourjob is just to listen and keep
it healthy in that way. Sothat's that's my experience of
(22:21):
this, even though it may not bein a strict spiritual sense, but
when someone is undergoing amedical procedure, it is a
spiritual experience in a lot ofways.
Kamala Rose (22:38):
It's one of the times that we are so detached
from the body in this way andliterally, literally, I know the
medieval alchemists did a lot ofthought in this area, trying to
understand, how is it that youcould be immobile and yet still
(23:02):
alive. And it we're talkingabout a mystery here, and I
think it's important to kind ofhold it in the place of a
mystery, right? And not be soanalytical like I am sometimes
about about how all of thisworks together. We're Krishna is
really bringing up this idea ofthe mystery of the spirit, the
(23:26):
the part that animates the body,but is not the personality, is
the the indwelling one. Nowthese verses are, are really
taken from inspired by also theKatha Upanishad and we know that
the seers of the Upanishadsdelve deeply into the subject
(23:50):
of, what is it that ispermanent, what is it that is
temporary? You know, they werethe and it was their revelations
that we find in the Upanishadsabout the transcendence of the
self. From the Katha Upanishadwe're looking at some, you know,
(24:11):
some, some beautiful versesbetween a dialog, again, a
dialog here, between the studentand death is teaching him. This
is how it works, death. Yamasays the primeval one is hard to
perceive, wrapped in mystery,hidden in a cave, residing
(24:35):
within an impenetrable depth.
This is the insight to be known.
And here in the Bhagavad Gita,these great insights from the
Upanishads are put, put beforeus as the goal to strive to this
mysterious knowledge of the selfof spirit of. The numinous is
(25:03):
what is to be known and yet hardto perceive and known through
the heart.
Nischala Joy Devi (25:11):
I think we have to remember also that we're
reading the Gita now throughit's not a book that you read
through and put back on theshelf. It's something that you
constantly read because you'reevolving. And every time we
evolve, the slokas that we read,or if you're reading the Sutras,
(25:33):
the sutures that we read, ifyou're reading the Bible, the
lines that you read, speak to usdifferently because we have
matured, we understand things.
There's even the beautiful partin the Bible. I think it's in
the Old Testament, it says, WhenI was a child, I spoke as a
child, I understood as a child,right? Because that's how a
(25:54):
child thinks. But then when Igrew up, I put aside these
childish things, and Iunderstood things in a different
way, and this is what'shappening. So if this
immediately doesn't speak toyou, and you say, wait a minute,
I don't know all this real andunreal thing, don't throw it
away. Just put it aside and say,Okay, maybe in another year,
(26:19):
maybe six months, maybe twoyears. Who knows? There's no
time on it. I'll pick it upagain. Maybe then it will make
more sense to me.
Kamala Rose (26:32):
This is such important advice, because
sometimes people are they findit difficult to, you know, to
grasp this sort of mysteriousnature, especially since we're
going between verses that say,therefore, fight, stand up like
a man exactly, then the self istranscendent. These are
(26:56):
juxtaposed in the Gita. It makesit, makes it a little difficult
to penetrate. So I know that forboth of us, this is a purpose of
doing this podcast is to try tohelp this, help make this a
little more accessible to somany of our friends and
(27:17):
colleagues in the yoga communitywho who would love to love the
Gita. But find some of thislanguage a bit arcane. The these
verses that are that are takenfrom the Upanishads and we find
(27:39):
here in chapter two, are reallymeant to be an incredible
inspiration to us, meant tostate something as simply as
possible, that there is a statebeyond the ordinary mundane
life. There's a state beyondsuffering. And this is the
(27:59):
purpose of yoga practice is toachieve this.
Nischala Joy Devi (28:04):
I think one of the things that we've tried
to do in our translation is makeit palatable for everyone,
because when we talk about theindwelling one, you can name it
anything you want or not. That'sthe beauty of it. No one has the
monopoly on the name or theform. It's just, it's this
(28:28):
essence, this spirit, whatfinding word is so difficult,
but it's, it's that which wewere just speaking about, that
motivates the body, thatmotivates the mind, that
motivates the intellect, thatkeeps us moving in this world,
that we have no idea why we'rehere, but it keeps us going
(28:50):
because it knows why we're here.
It's but it's not telling. Sothere's this constant movement.
You say, Why did I even do that?
I don't even think about why Idid that. You did it because
there was something in you thatwas moving that forward. So find
it in your heart. It's there.
Look for it. It's thatindwelling Spirit that we each
(29:14):
have. And the other thing thatshould not be a secret. It's the
same in all of us, no matterwhat you call it, no matter what
it looks like, it's still theessence of the same, and that
makes us all one. So when weread this and it says we're all
one, you say, Yeah, well, shelooks different than me, and he
(29:35):
looks different than her, and hetalks a different language.
That's not what they're talkingabout. They're talking about
this essence, and they describeit so exquisitely and
eloquently. Let's read more ofwhat they have to say about it.
Kamala Rose (29:55):
The self is not born, nor does it ever die after
having. Been, does it cease notto be unborn, eternal,
changeless and ancient. It doesnot die. When the body dies.
Nischala Joy Devi (30:11):
Isn't that beautiful?
Kamala Rose (30:12):
I just it's beautiful. Yes, it
Nischala Joy Devi (30:16):
goes back and forth. It's so poetic this.
There's some places to me in theGita that are more poetic, and
this is definitely one of them.
It's not born, nor does it everdie. So immediately you stop,
then that's enough for alifetime meditation. Just, let
me just say that first part youcould meditate on that for the
(30:36):
rest of your life and try tounderstand, but not with the
mind, with that essential partof us. What does that mean?
After having been it does notcease to be unborn, eternal,
changeless and ancient. It doesnot die when the body dies. So
(30:57):
this is a lot of what has beentold to us in so many different
ways, whether we talk about itas dust to dust, ashes to ashes,
they're talking about the body.
They're not talking about thespirit, and we they the Spirit,
will have eternal peace. So eachtradition has tried to describe
(31:22):
this in a particular way. And I,personally, I think one of the
most eloquent ways is here inthe Gita. It's just very simply
put and and also poeticunderstanding the 20
understanding that itself isbirthless, deathless, real and
(31:44):
imperishable. How would itperish when the body dies?
Getting back to the teacher,Ramana Maharshi, those of you
who don't know about him, pleaselook him up. He was pretty
extraordinary in who he was, andat the end of his toward the end
of his life, he had a cancer onhis arm, and they begged him to
(32:10):
have the cancer removed. And hehe said, No, it's It's supposed
to be there. That's why it'sthere. There's a reason for it.
And even there were littlemaggots that would come and eat
the dead cells, and they wouldfall and he would pick them up
and put them back on the sorewell, people thought he was
crazy, and we probably wouldtoo, but most people called him
(32:33):
a saint. So here we have againthis and he would always say,
and they said him, Oh Master,please don't leave us. Don't go
anywhere. And he would look atthem and say, Where would I go?
There's no place to go. This isit. There's I have no place to
go. Even when the body dies, thespirit still remains. Don't
(32:59):
Don't mourn for me, because I'mnot going anywhere. So again,
taking this and putting it backinto the everyday teachings is
so powerful,
Kamala Rose (33:13):
truly, and what we're talking about a different
kind of insight, a mysticalinsight, sometimes called a
Gnostic insight, an insight thattranscends the ordinary world.
The knowledge of mystics likeRamana Maharshi are exceptional.
(33:33):
We read about those who haveknown this in such a an
uncompromising way. And I knowin my life with my guru, I saw
this in 100 different ways, ofjust an acceptance of conditions
the way they are, withoutfighting against it, without
(33:58):
constantly trying to change theworld to make you happy, exactly
fighting against conditions theway they are. But you know, when
you were saying that nishila, Iwas also reminded of, I'll say,
the role of conventionalreligion, of almost trying to
(34:19):
keep this secret. I think it'sone of the things I love so much
about the Gita is that it'sstated right up front. Here's
the here's the knowledge thatyou are the divine. Yeah, that
that, that tattva must see thatmystical insight of the
Upanishads. You are, thateveryone is that we are all
(34:42):
that. And I'm reminded that atat many different times
throughout history, this wasthere was a Sufi saint called
Hafiz who openly declared, I amthe divine. He realized this,
and I. He was he was killed forhaving this knowledge, this
(35:03):
mystical insight, is rare, andin order, if everyone knew this,
the world would be an entirelydifferent place, and our
religious organizations wouldn'thave so much control of people
if everyone knew themselves tobe the divine. So mystical
(35:24):
insight throughout history hasit's a controversial subject in
the livingness of it, and peoplewho have this don't live in
ordinary society. Can't, youcan't to maintain this really
requires, it's saying no tocraving, saying no to avoiding
(35:47):
the things that we dislike, aradical acceptance of the way
things are.
Nischala Joy Devi (35:54):
Can I tell you a really fun fact about
Romano a harshi, please? When hestarted to have these
revelations, he moved into acave. He started living in a
cave, and he invited his motherto come live with him in the
cave. And she did, and the twoof them sat there and went into
(36:15):
deep states of consciousnesstogether, apart and together,
which I think is amazing. Herealized the source from which
he came in both aspects, in themystical aspect and also in the
human aspect, by inviting hisphysical mother to come there
(36:36):
with him. So I think to me this,the sorrow that I see today with
a lot of incoming yoga students,is they're not they're not
seeing the saints, they're notlistening to the mystics. And it
has become, Yoga has become avery much a physical or a
(36:57):
material practice, rather thanwhat it is intended for as this
very esoteric and mysticalpractice, and I think defining
it for me at least, what thatmeans is something that is
mystical cannot really beexplained by Physical
characteristics and physicalways, is something that trans
(37:22):
transcends all that and becomessomething, another entity in
itself, and that's the mystical,and it's something that can't be
proven, and it really most ofthe time, cannot be spoken, most
of the time. What you'll see ifsomeone has a mystical
revelation is just this verysimple smile on their face of
(37:46):
inner contentment. Sentosa withthat. So read about these
people. They they they'll giveyou insight into what you're
experiencing now too. They werevery generous with their
explanations and their teachingsand take advantage of it, is
what I would say,
Kamala Rose (38:06):
Julie, it's really, it's really great advice,
because we are finding such atrend of the heavy emphasis on
the physical and understandinghow, how how Hatha Yoga has come
to us at this point in history.
Where did it come from? How didit develop all of this? And you
know, it's, it's, it's wonderfulto understand, but we have to
(38:30):
remember that there's a muchbigger picture with the purpose
of yoga. There's a there's areason that these practices of
standing on one leg, forexample, were passed down to us
today, and it doesn't haveanything to do with performance
or competition in the classroom,and we certainly could benefit a
(38:53):
lot from this today. Theseverses, again, are taken right
from the Kathu Upanishad chaptertwo, the wise one is not born
and does not die. Has come from,has not come from anywhere, has
not become anyone. This one isunborn, eternal, primeval and
(39:17):
everlasting and is not killedwhen the body is killed, simple
ways of expressing a mysticalinsight that transcends really
what we know and how we operatein our ordinary lives. This is
the main argument for for thenext chapters, for the rest of
(39:46):
the Gita, is this initialdistinction that consciousness
is not matter. Matter is whatconsciousness is observing. Mm.
Yeah, having a sense ofdetachment or witnessing of
nature as we experience itsubjectively is what the tools
of yoga enable us to do. This isreally the purpose of our asana
(40:13):
practice, is to help to quietdown, help to eliminate some of
that systemic rajas,changeability and irritability
and inflammation and passions inthe body, pranayama to help to
eliminate some of that systemicTamas of tiredness and apathy in
(40:35):
the body, so that we can trainourselves to have a lighter,
more transparent inner space, towitness more clearly.
Nischala Joy Devi (40:52):
The next part, I think, is something I've
used quite a bit. And how have Iused it well as a swami and as a
minister, I was called upon todo memorial services. And being
of a yoga lineage, and havingpracticed for so long, it was
(41:18):
natural for me to go to a yogicbook instead of one of the other
great books that there are. AndI must say that when I read
these passages, at first, Ireally wondered how these people
would react to it, because itwasn't the person that I knew
(41:39):
that I was talking to, becausethey were already on their way
to another dimension. But it wasthe families, it was the
friends, it was the community ofthat person. And how would they
react to this? And when I wouldread something as the next
couple slokas, I don't we didn'tdo 21 yet.
Kamala Rose (42:06):
No, if the soul, we sort of lumped that into the
last one. So
Nischala Joy Devi (42:11):
let me just read that again, because it goes
with the other it's a question,is the soul indestructible,
eternal? If I'm sorry, if thesoul is indestructible, eternal,
unborn and unchanging, how thencould it be destroyed? Well, it
can't be and then the 22 goesinto probably one of the famous
(42:36):
slokas of the Gita. You may haveheard this one before, just as
one casts off worn out clothesand puts on new ones, so also
the self throws away its wornout bodies and takes on new
ones. Weapons cannot cut, firecannot burn, water cannot wet,
(43:00):
wind cannot dry it. And thenthey go on again. It cannot be
cut, burnt, wetted or dried up.
It is eternal, all pervading,firm, immovable and ancient. So
when we look at these threeslokas, when I look at them, it
gives me of sense that there issomething more that we did take
(43:22):
in these clothes. And, you know,there's many movies that have
shown this. Now, we zip off ourphysical bodies, and we have
we're a body of lightunderneath. There have been many
books. There was a book manyyears ago, I think was Ken Keyes
at the time, and he wrote thetitle, remember, was something
(43:44):
that got to me, and it said,it's a crack in the cosmic egg.
And to me, that just showed methat the inside the egg there's
that's where the life is. It'snot in the shell that cracks,
that goes away, same with us,this body. And look at yourself.
(44:06):
Remember how you look 10 yearsago. Remember how you look now.
Look at your children. How didthey look two years ago? How do
they look now? It's not thesame. And as soon as we're born,
the body starts to decay anddie. That's the nature of it.
It's like a fruit. The minuteyou pick it. It may be ripe, but
(44:27):
keep it for a few days. Keep itfor a few weeks. It starts to
decay, but what's inside thebody? That's what we're talking
about this is just another wayof describing it. So when you
say this to the the family ofsomeone who has just been lost
to them that's so loving anddear that they think that they
(44:52):
may have gone to oblivion,letting them know, no they've
cast. Off their worn out body,and now they've gone on. You
know, the most extraordinarything I ever heard after doing a
service like this is my friend'sfather. She was a great yogi.
(45:13):
Her father was not and he cameup to me after the memorial, and
he looked at me, and I was alittle nervous to tell you the
truth, because I didn't know howhe'd react very middle of the
road person. And he looked at meand he said, You know, I never
(45:34):
thought I'd feel joy at mydaughter's Memorial, but you
have made that and I said, it'sthe Bhagavata. It explained it
in a way that your heart couldhear it. So I think that this is
not just wisdom, but it'spractical wisdom also that we
(45:55):
can live our lives each day,
Kamala Rose (46:01):
answering the profound questions of the human
condition, and right here, inchapter two, we're addressing
some of these big ones. That's abeautiful story. Nisha, thank
you for sharing that with us. Ialso find it life affirming in a
(46:22):
way that that death can be verylife affirming, teaching us that
this is not everything, however,it is everything to you right
now, and these verses describingreincarnation. Give us a sense
(46:44):
of the ancient nature of thespirit that we have been here
before and we will be hereagain. This is why we practice
yoga. Is so that we canhopefully make our completions,
and when it's time to pass, ourminds are no longer attached to
(47:08):
this world. I think it's a goodtime for us to wrap up this
episode of our podcast. We'll becontinuing through addressing
some of the main themes ofchapter two as we continue, and
we just want to thank everyonefor subscribing and listening to
(47:31):
our podcast. It gives us a lotof happiness and hope for the
Gita and for the understandingof yoga when we see how many of
you have listened to our podcastand and shared it with others.
So we are so grateful to all ofour friends and colleagues in
(47:52):
the yoga community for makingthis podcast what it is.
Nischala Joy Devi (47:57):
Remember Knowledge is power. Thank you,
namaste. Thank.
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