April 6, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of A Woman's Gita Podcast, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose engage in a radical dialogue exploring the mystical dimensions of the Bhagavad Gita. They delve into:
- The transformative and transcendental nature of yoga, beyond material benefits
- The reformist spirit of the Gita in challenging religious authority and hierarchy
- The importance of personal discernment and inner guidance in spiritual practice
- The role of women in accessing the mystical realms of the teachings
- Addressing the issue of spiritual abuse and the need for discernment in choosing teachers
- Empowering women to trust their own inner voice and experience the Gita's wisdom directly
Join Nischala and Kamala as they guide listeners on a journey beyond the rituals and dogmas, uncovering the profound mystical heart at the core of this timeless classic.
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Episode Transcript
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Lilavati Eberle (00:02):
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy, Davey and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Hi, friends, thanks for joining us today in for a
woman's Gita podcast. In today'sepisode, Nishchala Devi and I
discuss a portion of theBhagavad Gita that our dialog
goes in the direction ofspiritual abuse. And so we
wanted to provide a triggerwarning for anyone who may be
(01:04):
sensitive to those type ofstories and this sort of dialog.
If you are a survivor ofspiritual abuse, know that there
are resources available.
Namaste. Thank you for joiningus on a woman's Gita Podcast.
I'm Kamala rose
Nischala Joy Devi (01:26):
and I'm Nischala Joy Devi.
Kamala Rose (01:29):
Today we are continuing in our slow burn
through chapter two, theoverview of the Bhagavad Gita.
We have we've been introduced tosome of the first definitions of
yoga that Krishna gives us inthe Gita, where he says that
those who follow this path of aninner awareness and attunement
(01:56):
to the Atman, to the higher mindthrough that most subtle layer
of the mind called the buddhiright. When we can find this
state of mind, we come to aplace of equipoise, of balance,
of an interior balance and aknowing. Right. In modern terms,
(02:17):
we might call this being in thezone, or feeling very, very
present and centered and in inyour own being, right? So as
we're going through chapter two,we've got sort of some
subsections, and so we've beenfollowing this nuanced dialog
(02:39):
between Krishna and Arjuna, andwe've made it here to the
beautiful verse 41
Nischala Joy Devi (02:49):
to 41 tells us, those who follow the path of
yoga attain singleness ofpurpose, while the minds of
others are filled with endlessthoughts and choices. Ah, yes.
(03:10):
242, the uneducated, utter,utter, flowery speech, toting
the scriptures in literal form,saying that pleasure and
enjoyment are available to us,both here and in heaven. 243,
(03:30):
they were full of desire withheaven as their highest goal,
only engaging themselves for thepurpose of acquiring enjoyment
and power. 244, the minds ofsuch people who are drawn to
pleasure and power are unlikelyto attain Samadhi. Wow, that
(03:54):
says a lot, doesn't it? Itreally does. It really does. And
you know, this is something thatI've thought about, maybe not in
this particular terms, but formany, many years. Because to me,
yoga, in the way of practice, isreally something that's not only
(04:15):
transformative, but mystical, issomething that you do something
and you're not getting amaterial advantage, although a
lot of yoga today is practicedfor that purpose. People want a
nice body. People want a betterback. People want their neck to
(04:35):
stop hurting. But the realpurpose of yoga is this
transcendental state, thisability to move away from the
ordinary into the extraordinary.
And what we're saying here isthat there's also some that
believe that it has onlypractical it's only something
that we study. It's notsomething that we experience.
(04:58):
And experience will outweigh anykind of learning in that way,
once you have an experience ofthe Divine, of your own self, of
your compassionate melding withother people, whatever else it
is changes us, and that's thetranscendental quality, that's
(05:20):
the mystical quality that nevercomes from just studying.
Studying is a part, isn't a partof it, the swadhyaya. It's
important. But at certain pointyou have to let go, and you have
to transform into somethingother, even I would use the word
beyond the scriptures. Thescriptures can only explain so
(05:45):
much because it's words. Butwhen we take it beyond words,
it's a very differentexperience.
Kamala Rose (05:53):
It's like the difference between organized
religion and spirituality. Whatwe read in our, you know, in
text, even like the BhagavadGita as a theoretical
description of spiritualexperience, and as you so
(06:13):
appropriately remind us thatthis is a mystical experience to
actually be in, that that, thatthe scriptures describe, right?
Always trying to encourage us toknow about something that is
beyond all ordinary experience,right? We use the word mystical
(06:34):
for that, and in these verses,it's, it's so interesting
because, you know, we've Krishnahas been leading us through this
discussion of the self that isreally exemplified in so many of
the early Upanishads, a peoplewho literally went beyond the
(06:57):
theory, went beyond the ritualof the Veda into the direct
experience of knowing thisAtman, and knowing this atman to
be the same as the spirit ofeverything, right? The the
universal soul, the UniversalSpirit, or Brahman, right? So
the Gita is coming along at thistime, when many are having this
(07:22):
exalted experience andcommunicating it. And it's, you
know, it's changing the waypeople think about religion and
think about the priests and thenecessity for priests, if, in
fact, the Atman is right here.
Why do I need someone to mediatethat? And, you know, this is a
question that is asked here inthe Gita, pointing out that
(07:50):
there are many people who are,you know, the the priestly
class, that are sort of have thejob of facilitating that for
ordinary people, whether inIndia or in Rome or in many of
the faiths around the world,right? Some patriarch
facilitates the spiritualexperience for the people. Yes,
(08:11):
right? The groundbreaking thingthat we've been talking about in
the Gita is something that'sbeyond the priests. It's within
us. It does. It's already there.
No one has to give it to you.
You just need to be quiet andlisten and find what's already
in you, right? A completelydifferent approach to this
(08:34):
religious or spiritualbeyondness experience, right?
So, in a way, these verses are,we see Krishna almost as a
reformist saying. Those priestsare kind of talking about the
letter of the law. Yeah, right.
(08:55):
They're talking about the theoryof religion and the rules and
the doctrines and the dogmas tofollow, but truly the self, as
he's been, as he's beenteaching, is within all of us,
and within all of us meanswithin all of us, of all castes
and creeds and genders, right?
So I you know this part of theGita is a little confusing,
(09:20):
because he's jumping aroundsubjects, in a way, but I think
we can see that this is areformist spirit and saying the
Divine is for all.
Nischala Joy Devi (09:34):
I think that the confusion seems to come, at
least for me, as he moves todifferent parts in the Gita, and
he talks about, now he's talkingabout that you can actually find
that divine without all thisexcess in the rituals, etc. But
(09:54):
then later on, he'll say, youcan't get to the Divine except
through me. So I think. That weit really puts it back on the
individual to be able todiscern. This is where the
discernment comes back into it,to be able to discern which is
right for me at this moment,which is the truth now. Because
(10:19):
if we take the wrong truth atthe wrong time. It's too
confusing, and we don'tunderstand it. I think also,
what I read in this is thepersonal responsibility that
he's now putting back on us. Orif you see it as Arjuna, I see
(10:39):
him as a representation, and Iit comes to mind. I just was
visiting the main center forMother Teresa in Calcutta, and
reading about her story again,hearing her her own words. She
was faced with this at a certainpoint, she was under obligation
(11:04):
of vows. She had taken vows,including the vow of obedience,
which most monastics take. Andfor some of us, I won't mention
any particular names, that wasthe hardest part of the vow, the
obedience, because I alwaysbelieved, and it seemed that
others also is that the onlyperson you're really obedient to
(11:29):
is your own conscience and yourown inner self. If you have not
found that yet, then you choosesomeone on the outside that has
those same moral values andspiritual heights to be able to
guide you in that way. That'swhat we call a guru, one who
dispels our darkness. So was acase with mother like Mother
(11:53):
Teresa. Here, she was being toldwithin that this is a very
powerful aspect, and this is nowher her way forward to take care
of the poorest of the poor. Butwhen she went back to the
authorities, the Churchauthorities, they wouldn't give
(12:13):
her permission. So she finallyhad to just really leave on her
own and and go and talk to thePope at the time. But the story
itself really speaks to me,because it says that when that
voice comes, that mysticalvoice, that alcohol voice, that
(12:34):
hidden voice, however you wantto describe it, that becomes the
guide that becomes the guru thatbecomes the clarity. Now, what I
also see in this is that if yougo to someone, or you pick up a
(12:56):
book, and you're not yet able tounderstand it, you're going to
interpret it that it gives youpleasure, it brings you the
pleasure. And it not to sayspirituality doesn't give you
pleasure, because it's probablythe greatest pleasure you could
ever experience. But if youcompare it to worldly pleasure,
(13:19):
it doesn't exist. So it's a verycomplicated these slokas are
very, very profound to me inthat it's really telling you
here you have to trust yourself,but there's a caveat, you have
to be far enough advanced on thespiritual path to be able to
(13:43):
understand where you are. And Ithink that's the issue there's
there's a expression in the Zentradition, tradition when
someone experiences some kind ofenlightenment, but they they
want to let everybody know, andit's not quite as much as they
had hoped. And they call itstinking of enlightenment. And I
(14:05):
just love that phrase, because Iit doesn't say that you're not
it just says you don't have thediscrimination yet to make that
discernment. So I think, to me,this is what this is about to
getting getting us ready to moveinto deep spiritual teachings,
(14:26):
knowing that there has to be asense of purity to be able to
understand them, and then thecommitment to practice,
Kamala Rose (14:36):
which produces that state of equipoise between
pleasure and pain, between thedualities where we are able to
rest the self is able to rest inits own nature. And as you were
saying and looking at verse 45transcending the three gunas.
(15:00):
One is free from the pairs ofopposites and centers only on
the self, right? Such afoundational yogic teaching,
drawing from the language ofSankhya, the three gunas,
sattva, rajas and tamas, andbeing free from the pairs of
(15:20):
opposites, the van de VA andcentered only on the self, on
the Atman, right? So, as you'redescribing this idea of stinking
of enlightenment, right? We can,that's still in the Gunas,
right, where you can be soblissful you're almost silly,
right? It's kind of an airhead,right? We can, we were still in
(15:43):
the goonas, right? There's somany, you know, in the in the
spiritual world to, you know, wecan have so many experiences
that that change us and alterus, but we have to remember that
this real experience is beyondthe Gunas, right? And that is
this moving actually beyond thegunas. We can only do
(16:06):
internally, while we're alive,right? We have to move right. We
need our rajas to wake up right.
We We need our sattva to haveclarity, to understand what's
going on, right? Sort out what'sgoing on. And we certainly need
our Thomas to be able to restand relax. I taught a
(16:28):
restorative class this morning,and right? So all by resourcing
that grounding and yeah, learnlearning the learned skill of
relaxing that's so importantthat we learn in yoga, but right
again, this, this experiencethat Krishna is defining as
yoga, is it transcends the threegunas,
Nischala Joy Devi (16:51):
yes, right,
Kamala Rose (16:55):
beyond mystical, right? It's free from pleasure
pain. It's not motivated byanything, and it is centered on
the self, the soul, theauthentic nature of every
person. And now, after we'vetaken this side trip into or an
(17:17):
explanation into motive, rightunderstanding that people are
coming from somewhere in theirspiritual pursuits, often,
right? They're coming from somemotive. I want to have peace of
mind. I want to have a blissfulexperience. I want to have a
religious experience, right? Iwant to alleviate my pain, and I
(17:39):
want to gain riches. That was alot of the reason that people
approached the priestly caste inthat time, the time of the Gita,
was, you know, to accrueblessings. We see the same kind
of thing happening in theCatholic Church, to accrue
blessings, to have that priestpray for you, right? So, going
(18:00):
beyond this is a state that isreally being described here as
being beyond any type of motive,of getting anything out of it,
of gaining anything. I think,like you said, it is its own
reward, right? Yeah,
Nischala Joy Devi (18:19):
I think one thing that's a little bit
probably, if I was rewriting thewhole thing, I would have 245,
2.45 a, two point 40 5b putbecause I think it's a little
bit of a rough transitionbetween the minds of such people
(18:42):
who are drawn to pleasure andpower are unlikely to attain
Samadhi. And then we saytranscending the three gunas. So
where is that in there? Becausewhen you talk about transcending
the Gunas, this is a very highlevel of experience with the
(19:02):
spiritual Seeker. So I think itcould be a little bit confusing,
and I'd like to dial it back alittle bit in that for as you
beautifully describe the Gunasthe three. Gunas the three Guna,
the sattva, has to become moredominant the other three have to
(19:23):
be there as supportive. But ifwe stay with Thomas, we will
never do practice, because it's,it's inactivity leading to
inertia. So, and that's, Ithink, where a lot of this comes
in, and this Thomas, we don'twant to do it ourselves, so we
go to someone who we think ismore elevated than we are, and
(19:47):
in actuality, it may or may notbe the case, but we put our
confidence in that person andbelieve them, whereas they may
not even know themselves. So, sogetting that Thomas under
control, and using it when weneed it, for rest, for
(20:07):
rejuvenation, etc, and then thenext is moving and calming down
the rajas, this is somethingI've seen for years and years
and years. I remember I wasasked to teach a meditation
retreat at one point, and I wentin just expecting to do just
that and realize that none ofthem could sit still. They had
(20:30):
been practicing Asana for yearsand years and years, but they
weren't able to sit still. Soafter the Thomas, after the
ability to want to either not dothings or to sleep too much, or
whatever, we have to calm thatrajas down. And that's what I
think the asanas do, the hathayoga and the pranayama, they
(20:53):
calm it down, because then wemove into sattva. And when we
move into sattva, it's so mucheasier to transcend the Gunas
from that point, from the pointof everything is in balance.
Okay, now we can let go of it. Ihad a very interesting thing
happen. I was just recently inIndia, and we went into this
(21:15):
beautiful, magnificent RadhaKrishna temple, and we didn't
have enough coins. We smallbills or coins to put in to give
to each of the priests as theygive you. And there was a big
sign on the door that said, putin the in the boxes. Don't give
(21:36):
it to the priests, right? So itsaid very clearly there. So we
managed to get a small billready, and I went up to this
small altar on the side, I can'tremember, I think was Kali or
Durga, and the priest wassitting there getting ready to
apply the powders on my head.
And I put it in the big box, andhe put down his hand, crossed
(22:01):
his arms, and wouldn't give meanything because I didn't give
it to him directly. This to me,talks exactly to this. Exactly
to this. His job is to sit thereand give out the prasad from the
deity to anyone, whether theygive him money or not, but he
(22:23):
didn't, he chose to go for thematerial. So I think we start to
see this in the life and howreligion has adapted itself to
our greed, or has our greed beenthe place of religion? And I
(22:46):
think we have to be very carefulto take away there was a book
written many years ago. I didn'tread the book, but the title was
fantastic, and it was calledspiritual materialism. And I
think we have to be very carefulnot to confuse the ritual with
the actual spirituality. And ifyou don't give enough in the
(23:13):
basket on a Sunday or a Fridayor a Saturday or wherever,
whatever day you're going, thatyou won't get that spiritual
enlightenment, which, again, isridiculous because it's, it's,
it's spirituality has nothing todo with materialism, the
simplest, the simplest people.
(23:35):
So I think that these slogansare very, very powerful at this
moment. And start again,starting slow, try to do things
that are not so tamasic, oreating food that's so tamasic or
then move to the rajas, eatingthings simpler, less spiced, and
(23:57):
doing, starting to do thingsthat make other people feel good
instead of just yourself,
Kamala Rose (24:04):
you're reminding me of a wonderful film I saw
recently I wanted to recommendto our listeners. It's called
Fire brand, the life ofCatherine Parr the last, the
final, sixth and final wife ofHenry the Eighth, who is it's a
(24:25):
remarkable story. AliciaVikander plays her. And this is
a study of us, a woman who issurviving right after all of her
predecessors had their heads cutoff, right? So this is right,
the new Church of Englandopposing the Catholic Church.
It's the time of theReformation, and we have this
(24:47):
right in the middle of all this,the story of Catherine Parr, who
is a deeply spiritual woman, andin fact, is so bold as to write
her own thoughts on. Thespiritual experience, unmediated
by priests, and the this genuineinterior experience available to
(25:13):
all right, at this time, the bigtopic was translating the Bible
into English so people couldactually read and understand the
teachings of this Jesus thatthey are expected to
unconditionally follow. So, youknow, we see echoes of this same
subject through and throughhistory. And I think there is
(25:36):
something there about about howwomen, because of the sphere of
life that we deal in, right asmothers and caregivers and end
of life officiants, right? We,we, I think we're very we come
(25:57):
and go out of thesetranscendental states very
naturally. And we've talkedabout this a lot that you know,
it's the mystical. Is our homerealm, right? So I do find
something very almostsubversively feminist about
these verses to challengereligious authority, to allow us
(26:18):
to challenge religiousauthority, and like our you know
four sisters before us, likeCatherine Parr and you know
subsequent women through the youknow East and West, who have
shown us a very, a verybeautiful expression of the
(26:38):
spiritual life outside of anyreligious confines that seems to
come to us as a song or anatural rhythm, you know,
tapping into the land and asense of belonging to the earth,
that this is one another areawhere I, you know, have my own,
(27:05):
you know, dialog with the Gitaon this issue of justice, right?
I don't necessarily feel like Ineed to save the world and, you
know, conquer this way. Rather,I feel aligned to care for
what's good, and, you know, tohelp and to support and taking
more of a nurturing or caringtype of dialog, right? I think,
(27:32):
I think when we look at this, Ithink just what we're talking
about here with the Gunas that,you know, we we should
understand this, but I think oneway that we often think we
understand subjects like theGunas is they have to be subdued
and conquered and overcome. AndI just I don't. That certainly
(27:53):
hasn't worked for me in my pathand my interiorization of the
spiritual the yoga teachings,right? We can't really free
ourselves from the pairs ofopposites. We're always there,
but we have to have the wisdomand the insight that is able to
see beyond, to more, to aninherent unity that is maybe
(28:19):
bigger than dualities, ratherthan the sort of nihilism that
often accompanies these, thissort of yoga teachings and a
feminine, a feminine taking ofthe the Gunas would say that,
(28:41):
you know, we are in the realm ofnature, but at all times, are
aware of what's more than thethree gunas, and because we're
alive, right, that we can'treally get beyond it just how
you said, sattva has To take thepredominance. This is what our
(29:02):
yoga practices are about, right?
Our practice of Asana, as yousaid, is going to help us to
mediate the rajas, but we haveto accompany that with
pranayama, and that will help uswith the Thomas help us to bring
get some of that residuallaziness and apathy, and you
know, the world is certainlyagitating a level of inertia in
(29:25):
us, in a way think, you know,choosing clarity and A voluntary
peace is a good path to go.
Nischala Joy Devi (29:44):
The next thing that comes up, which is
very interesting for me, isthese Gunas that we are now
being asked to transcend. Weneed to. Look for this in our
teachers and our leaders too.
Where are they in this? Becausewhat has to come up in this
(30:06):
natural day and age is thiswhole abuse cycle that you put
your faith in someone or aninstitution, and then you find
out at some point that there wasmajor abuses of different kinds
of nature, financial nature,sexual nature, physical nature,
etc. What do we do with that,and how do we reconcile that
(30:32):
with the religion that's, Ithink we're drives people into
the mysticism of it, because ifwe continue to allow this level
of abuse without stopping it, itwill take over, and it will
(30:55):
poison even the spiritual aspectof any known religion. And I see
this over and over again,people, especially women, also
giving an excuse. Oh, well, it'sbecause of this. It's because
they're celibate. Is becausethey're asked to do this. It's
(31:16):
because that see, what it saysto me is the person has not
tuned in to this mysticalaspect, whether it's in yoga,
whether it's in Catholicism,Christianity, Judaism, Bucha,
people going anywhere. If wedon't get to that mystical
aspect which all the traditionshave, then the confusion comes,
(31:39):
why am I doing this? And why amI doing this comes, and then
they start doing things that areinappropriate, without that
backing, without that theunderstanding of who we are.
This keeps getting perpetuatedover and over, and what people
(32:04):
are doing, instead of drawingaway from the religion into
spirituality, they're letting goof the whole baby with the bath
water. And I think this is tome, the sadness of what's
happening. If people come to meand they say, my teacher has
done this, my rabbi has donethis, my priest has done this,
(32:25):
and I say, then let them go, butdon't let go of the sacred
teachings that comes from 1000sof years ago, not from these
people. Because what people aredoing is they're branding now
these ancient teachings to belike their own. And it's not all
these have come from 1000s and1000s of years. Do we put a
(32:48):
little personality on it? Yes,but not to change it. And I
think this is what we're tryingto do Kamala, is really explain
it from a different way, notchange anything, but say, okay,
you can look at it this way, butmystically. If you go in and
really meditate on this, you'regoing to find something
(33:11):
completely different. So I thinkthat this has to be looked at
also this. Who? Who are wegetting the knowledge from which
gun are they in, and have theytranscended
Kamala Rose (33:30):
issues with who our teachers are, and developing the
discernment to tell a goodteacher is very sagely advice,
something I think needs to beheard as often as possible in
the spiritual landscape today. Iyou know you're such a
(33:51):
forerunner in this. You haveheard stories of spiritual abuse
for decades. Yeah, right. You,you're the one of the
forerunners of this, right?
There's a lot of dialogs goingon where, where people are
discovering that things havehappened to them physically,
right? Maybe they even blockedit out and they couldn't even
(34:12):
remember that somethinghappened. I just saw another
film that was show it was astory of a local guru in India
who had had the whole town, allof the young women, uh,
ritually, came and did sex pujawith him. Sex sex seva with him.
(34:34):
Every, every day, all day. Andthen there were places to watch,
from a gallery where the menwould come and watch seva. It
was unbelievable, true story.
And you know, was, was heeventually, uh, dealt with, not
(34:55):
harshly enough. Yeah, right. Butthese kinds of stories and these
sort of things that. Go on underthe cloak of religion. And I
think there's a part of takingthe mystical and kind of
shrouding in mystery, anythingthat deals with spirituality
(35:15):
that says to people you're toocommon to understand, right? So
there's Oh, there's a there's areason for this. There's a
reason for this. And you know,as the you know, 1000s of
Catholic priests have, you know,have shown Oh no, no, they they
clearly have something, some waythat they've framed this, that
(35:38):
they all share, all of theseabusers share, and this is the
spiritual climate that we livein and what modern women are
dealing with in reading theBhagavad Gita and other
spiritual texts, right? Thetexts on on yoga are very you
(36:00):
know, all of the teachers aremen. It was handed down by men
to men, copied by men. All ofthe examples were given to men,
and we now as Western women whohave been been brought up or
been part of the women'smovement east and west, we find
(36:23):
ourselves finding these veryancient teachings filled with
the very patriarchy that we arerebelling against, right? And so
I think it's very appropriate tonote this in this part of
chapter two that I think we'rewe have so much. We've got a lot
(36:44):
to work with just to questionthat and and I think that's our
attitude towards the BhagavadGita, is that it's an ancient
Sanskrit work that's handed downto us today. But I don't think
we want to bring those moralswith no with it. We're not
trying to emulate the lifestyle.
We're trying to take themystical teachings that apply to
(37:04):
us as modern women, inheritorsof a movement of empowerment
that like Catherine Parr andQueen Elizabeth after her right
these women of power andintelligence who really said,
you know, and so many others whoreally tried to show that you
(37:29):
don't need a media women, youhave the direct spiritual
experience happening yourself,my gurus and teachers, so many
Women who have taught me overthe years that you are entitled
to your experience. You areentitled to yourself the way
everyone else is. And I thinkthe more we empower each other
(37:51):
and support each other in ourawakening, the diversity of
voices of what it sounds likefor female embodied people you
know, and even you know all allof our gender identities, having
the freedom to speak openlyabout what it feels Like to be
(38:14):
awakening without the rigidityof patriarchy?
Nischala Joy Devi (38:24):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. The
question that comes to my mindis, how, if we are indoctrinated
from small children, how do wegrow that discernment to be able
to know who is leading us on theright way and who isn't. I've
(38:44):
heard countless case historiesof abuse from spiritual
teachers, from the disciples ofspiritual teachers who were
convinced, at least initially,that the things that were being
done to them was for theirspiritual growth and
(39:05):
development. And even thoughthere was a voice inside of them
that said, No, this is not true.
This is not right. The thecontinuation from the voice at
the external voice saying, No,this is the way it should be.
Become stronger than your innervoice, and that's how the people
are taken advantage of. Becausewe all know, even small children
(39:29):
know when something is notright, but they don't have the
power to do anything about it.
So I think, along with thistranscendence of the Gunas, we
have to be very careful to placethe spiritual teachers that we
have not on a pedestal, butinstead, in the eyes of the
(39:54):
Gunas, where are they? And isthis someone that you may need
to learn? Something from for aperiod of time, and then move
on, because there's, there'sdifferent kinds of gurus.
There's something that we callthe Sat Guru, which is the guru
beyond any kind of these issuesthat we're talking about, sat
(40:18):
the truth, the absolute, theprimary that will take us as far
as we need to go, maybe in form,most of the time, not in form.
And then there's the upagurus,the gurus of the everyday life
that we can find to help us. Canyou teach me how to do mantra?
(40:38):
Can you teach me how to change aflat tire. Can you do that?
There are upper gurus, andthere's somebody, if there's
somebody to emulate. We dootherwise. We just learn that,
and then we pull back thisgiving of our complete power to
another human being has to stop.
It has to stop, whether it's aguru, whether it's a sports
(41:01):
hero. Very interesting. I wentin to get some supplies the
other day to a food store righthere, and it was the day before
the Super Bowl, and they theywere two young men behind the
counter, and they said to me,Oh, you're going to watch the
(41:21):
big game. You know, they werekind of perky like that. And I
just shook my head, no. I didn'twant to get into it. And they
pushed and they said, Not a fan.
And I said, No, not exactly. Isaid, I just, I don't approve of
that, the way that they act. AndI said, and you know, it's the
(41:44):
biggest day for domesticviolence of the year. And one of
the young men said, Oh, I guessif the team loses. I said, No,
either way, they're so pumped upon testosterone that they go
home and they beat their wifeand children. So he was shocked,
and what I realized is I couldsee at that moment, his whole
(42:08):
world took a quarter of a turn,and he started to look at this a
little bit different. I wasn'tangry, I wasn't pushy, I just
stated a fact, and I said, youcan look it up if you don't
under if you don't believe me.
And he said, Wow, I never eventhought of that. I think I'll
just watch the commercials, hesaid. And off I went. But I feel
(42:30):
like it's the Gita, theScriptures, the Bible, all these
books give us a spiritualblueprint, but not just for our
spiritual growth. It's all foralso for our human growth and to
become better people. Not justfollow the crowd, not just do
(42:52):
something because someone says,this is the big game of the
year, but everything, because ifyou follow in one thing, will
you follow in the next? Whenwill you start empowering
yourself to make your owndecisions? And this is the
caveat when it's not popular.
Unknown (43:15):
That's the hard part.
Kamala Rose (43:19):
Learning discernment is one of the most
important lessons that yogateaches us. And recurring theme
in the Bhagavad Gita being ableto discern those very things,
what, where? Where do I need tolearn from someone else? What do
I need to learn from someonesomeone else? When have I
(43:41):
learned enough, and the abilityto discern the quality of
teacher that we haveencountered? You know, I think
this is a huge area in the yogaworld today, and I feel like
there's a there's a part of manyWesterners who are encountering
(44:04):
the sort of exotic Easterntradition of yoga and
spirituality and come to theguru question with quite a
romanticism, right, right? Whenyou know, when you're in love
like that, you are not on your Agame of discernment, right? How
many have walked into somestupid situations on that?
(44:29):
Right? So we have to, we've haveto give ourselves permission to
trust ourselves and what weknow. And when it's time to
change, it's time to change,right? Right? Something we've
both learned it's time tochange. And there was a period
that it was very important tohave the specific guidance and
(44:50):
the monastic training and all ofthis. So I think our words are
coming from, you know, certainkind of experience of. Living
with our gurus, and, you know,being very involved in Ashram
life and having to make thedifficult decision to step away
and begin to make thosedecisions independently about
(45:14):
our spiritual future anddevelopment. And I hope that our
words and experience can empowerother women to give yourself
permission to you know, to trustyourself and believe that you
have the capacity to learn andgrow, sometimes with the help of
(45:36):
others, but also by practice.
And this is what we love so muchabout yoga, as it gives us
practices and things that we cando with the body and mind to to
literally change and to growourselves and to someone who has
a different level of emotionalmaturity. And it that's very
(45:58):
real and very tangible. And I'dlike to add that, you know, we
did go into a lot in thisepisode today. So if you have
experienced any spiritual abuse,there are resources that you can
reach out to and connect with. Iknow they're doing a lot of work
(46:19):
on this at so as in London, andthey could connect you with some
of the researchers who areworking in that. I think one
thing that academia gives us isa sort of objective, neutral
place that's not pro religiousright? It's not, it's sort of
neutral, does tries not to feelone way or the other about these
(46:43):
sort of things. And you know, wehope that you'll feel supported.
And you know, as as the as theyoga community evolves, and we
start to hear these threads andthese narratives emerging, and
we and our, you know, and wewant to help and support each
(47:04):
other. I think nishtel is soright that coming to a reckoning
over, let's say some of the waysthat we, you know, we fell head
over heels in love with yogaand, you know jumped in head
first, and maybe, you know, justgiving ourselves permission to
(47:26):
adapt and grow and change and totrust yourself and your
conscience as that inner guru to
Nischala Joy Devi (47:38):
think One of the difficulties is the Sangha,
at least in my experience,because if you have that
clarity, that's that you've beengraced with. And then you start
talking to other people and theysay, Oh no, no, that's not true,
that's not right, that's not theway it's supposed to be, or way
(47:59):
it is. And then you start tohave doubt. That's that's where
we have to go back to thepractices. You have to really go
in and listen, as we talkedabout with Mother Teresa, to
that voice within. And you haveto start trusting it when it
says, This isn't right. Thisisn't right because it will pull
(48:23):
you down too. It's not just theteacher, it's it's those that
condone what the teacher isdoing. And we saw this, there
was a group going to aparticular ashram in India, and
I said, I'm sorry. I won't gobecause that teacher has been
(48:44):
abusive to women, and I don't goplaces where I knowingly know
that. And people said, Oh, wedon't care. He's a good teacher.
And that kind of thing, thatkind of experience always stops
me in my tracks, because to me,the first thing is the moral the
(49:12):
moral aptitude. From there, thespirituality grows. It's like
the soil with which you'replanting the spiritual seeds. If
you plant them in bad soil,you're not going to get good
plants. So it's this kind ofthing that I think we all have
(49:33):
to look at. And if someone inyour community who has a little
bit more of that light to beable to see clearly, listen to
them, talk to them before youmake any kind of decision. And
ask yourself, Is this somethingthat most yoga teachers will
(49:54):
teach you? Most gurus will do?
Where does it say this in theScripture? Yeah, where is that?
So be careful, because it's, itseems to be growing in
popularity, this abuse, and it'sbeing shoved to the side. And I
think this is one of the biggestmistakes, because you can't
(50:15):
possibly get to that point ofknowing yourself as a yogi and
condone physical, sexual ormental abuse. So be careful. Be
careful when you choose someone,don't give everything. Just hold
(50:37):
back a little bit. See who thatperson is. Watch them. What did
they do? How did they act? Itsays it right here in the
Bhagavad Gita. How does someoneof steady wisdom Act? Read it.
Do they act like that? Yeah.
Kamala Rose (50:57):
So well. Thank you so much for joining us today on
a woman's Gita podcast, we'vecovered a lot today on some
important verses in the Gita. Wethank you so much for listening,
and hope that you will share ourpodcast with others who might
enjoy this, this radical dialogand and hit subscribe and maybe
(51:23):
leave us a review. We would loveit. We'd love to hear from you.
And anything you'd love for usto talk about, we'd love to hear
from you. Thank you so much forlistening. Namaste. Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (51:38):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nistula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a women's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(52:02):
Namaste. You.
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy, Davey and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Hi, friends, thanks for joining us today in for a
woman's Gita podcast. In today'sepisode, Nishchala Devi and I
discuss a portion of theBhagavad Gita that our dialog
goes in the direction ofspiritual abuse. And so we
wanted to provide a triggerwarning for anyone who may be
(01:04):
sensitive to those type ofstories and this sort of dialog.
If you are a survivor ofspiritual abuse, know that there
are resources available.
Namaste. Thank you for joiningus on a woman's Gita Podcast.
I'm Kamala rose
Nischala Joy Devi (01:26):
and I'm Nischala Joy Devi.
Kamala Rose (01:29):
Today we are continuing in our slow burn
through chapter two, theoverview of the Bhagavad Gita.
We have we've been introduced tosome of the first definitions of
yoga that Krishna gives us inthe Gita, where he says that
those who follow this path of aninner awareness and attunement
(01:56):
to the Atman, to the higher mindthrough that most subtle layer
of the mind called the buddhiright. When we can find this
state of mind, we come to aplace of equipoise, of balance,
of an interior balance and aknowing. Right. In modern terms,
(02:17):
we might call this being in thezone, or feeling very, very
present and centered and in inyour own being, right? So as
we're going through chapter two,we've got sort of some
subsections, and so we've beenfollowing this nuanced dialog
(02:39):
between Krishna and Arjuna, andwe've made it here to the
beautiful verse 41
Nischala Joy Devi (02:49):
to 41 tells us, those who follow the path of
yoga attain singleness ofpurpose, while the minds of
others are filled with endlessthoughts and choices. Ah, yes.
(03:10):
242, the uneducated, utter,utter, flowery speech, toting
the scriptures in literal form,saying that pleasure and
enjoyment are available to us,both here and in heaven. 243,
(03:30):
they were full of desire withheaven as their highest goal,
only engaging themselves for thepurpose of acquiring enjoyment
and power. 244, the minds ofsuch people who are drawn to
pleasure and power are unlikelyto attain Samadhi. Wow, that
(03:54):
says a lot, doesn't it? Itreally does. It really does. And
you know, this is something thatI've thought about, maybe not in
this particular terms, but formany, many years. Because to me,
yoga, in the way of practice, isreally something that's not only
(04:15):
transformative, but mystical, issomething that you do something
and you're not getting amaterial advantage, although a
lot of yoga today is practicedfor that purpose. People want a
nice body. People want a betterback. People want their neck to
(04:35):
stop hurting. But the realpurpose of yoga is this
transcendental state, thisability to move away from the
ordinary into the extraordinary.
And what we're saying here isthat there's also some that
believe that it has onlypractical it's only something
that we study. It's notsomething that we experience.
(04:58):
And experience will outweigh anykind of learning in that way,
once you have an experience ofthe Divine, of your own self, of
your compassionate melding withother people, whatever else it
is changes us, and that's thetranscendental quality, that's
(05:20):
the mystical quality that nevercomes from just studying.
Studying is a part, isn't a partof it, the swadhyaya. It's
important. But at certain pointyou have to let go, and you have
to transform into somethingother, even I would use the word
beyond the scriptures. Thescriptures can only explain so
(05:45):
much because it's words. Butwhen we take it beyond words,
it's a very differentexperience.
Kamala Rose (05:53):
It's like the difference between organized
religion and spirituality. Whatwe read in our, you know, in
text, even like the BhagavadGita as a theoretical
description of spiritualexperience, and as you so
(06:13):
appropriately remind us thatthis is a mystical experience to
actually be in, that that, thatthe scriptures describe, right?
Always trying to encourage us toknow about something that is
beyond all ordinary experience,right? We use the word mystical
(06:34):
for that, and in these verses,it's, it's so interesting
because, you know, we've Krishnahas been leading us through this
discussion of the self that isreally exemplified in so many of
the early Upanishads, a peoplewho literally went beyond the
(06:57):
theory, went beyond the ritualof the Veda into the direct
experience of knowing thisAtman, and knowing this atman to
be the same as the spirit ofeverything, right? The the
universal soul, the UniversalSpirit, or Brahman, right? So
the Gita is coming along at thistime, when many are having this
(07:22):
exalted experience andcommunicating it. And it's, you
know, it's changing the waypeople think about religion and
think about the priests and thenecessity for priests, if, in
fact, the Atman is right here.
Why do I need someone to mediatethat? And, you know, this is a
question that is asked here inthe Gita, pointing out that
(07:50):
there are many people who are,you know, the the priestly
class, that are sort of have thejob of facilitating that for
ordinary people, whether inIndia or in Rome or in many of
the faiths around the world,right? Some patriarch
facilitates the spiritualexperience for the people. Yes,
(08:11):
right? The groundbreaking thingthat we've been talking about in
the Gita is something that'sbeyond the priests. It's within
us. It does. It's already there.
No one has to give it to you.
You just need to be quiet andlisten and find what's already
in you, right? A completelydifferent approach to this
(08:34):
religious or spiritualbeyondness experience, right?
So, in a way, these verses are,we see Krishna almost as a
reformist saying. Those priestsare kind of talking about the
letter of the law. Yeah, right.
(08:55):
They're talking about the theoryof religion and the rules and
the doctrines and the dogmas tofollow, but truly the self, as
he's been, as he's beenteaching, is within all of us,
and within all of us meanswithin all of us, of all castes
and creeds and genders, right?
So I you know this part of theGita is a little confusing,
(09:20):
because he's jumping aroundsubjects, in a way, but I think
we can see that this is areformist spirit and saying the
Divine is for all.
Nischala Joy Devi (09:34):
I think that the confusion seems to come, at
least for me, as he moves todifferent parts in the Gita, and
he talks about, now he's talkingabout that you can actually find
that divine without all thisexcess in the rituals, etc. But
(09:54):
then later on, he'll say, youcan't get to the Divine except
through me. So I think. That weit really puts it back on the
individual to be able todiscern. This is where the
discernment comes back into it,to be able to discern which is
right for me at this moment,which is the truth now. Because
(10:19):
if we take the wrong truth atthe wrong time. It's too
confusing, and we don'tunderstand it. I think also,
what I read in this is thepersonal responsibility that
he's now putting back on us. Orif you see it as Arjuna, I see
(10:39):
him as a representation, and Iit comes to mind. I just was
visiting the main center forMother Teresa in Calcutta, and
reading about her story again,hearing her her own words. She
was faced with this at a certainpoint, she was under obligation
(11:04):
of vows. She had taken vows,including the vow of obedience,
which most monastics take. Andfor some of us, I won't mention
any particular names, that wasthe hardest part of the vow, the
obedience, because I alwaysbelieved, and it seemed that
others also is that the onlyperson you're really obedient to
(11:29):
is your own conscience and yourown inner self. If you have not
found that yet, then you choosesomeone on the outside that has
those same moral values andspiritual heights to be able to
guide you in that way. That'swhat we call a guru, one who
dispels our darkness. So was acase with mother like Mother
(11:53):
Teresa. Here, she was being toldwithin that this is a very
powerful aspect, and this is nowher her way forward to take care
of the poorest of the poor. Butwhen she went back to the
authorities, the Churchauthorities, they wouldn't give
(12:13):
her permission. So she finallyhad to just really leave on her
own and and go and talk to thePope at the time. But the story
itself really speaks to me,because it says that when that
voice comes, that mysticalvoice, that alcohol voice, that
(12:34):
hidden voice, however you wantto describe it, that becomes the
guide that becomes the guru thatbecomes the clarity. Now, what I
also see in this is that if yougo to someone, or you pick up a
(12:56):
book, and you're not yet able tounderstand it, you're going to
interpret it that it gives youpleasure, it brings you the
pleasure. And it not to sayspirituality doesn't give you
pleasure, because it's probablythe greatest pleasure you could
ever experience. But if youcompare it to worldly pleasure,
(13:19):
it doesn't exist. So it's a verycomplicated these slokas are
very, very profound to me inthat it's really telling you
here you have to trust yourself,but there's a caveat, you have
to be far enough advanced on thespiritual path to be able to
(13:43):
understand where you are. And Ithink that's the issue there's
there's a expression in the Zentradition, tradition when
someone experiences some kind ofenlightenment, but they they
want to let everybody know, andit's not quite as much as they
had hoped. And they call itstinking of enlightenment. And I
(14:05):
just love that phrase, because Iit doesn't say that you're not
it just says you don't have thediscrimination yet to make that
discernment. So I think, to me,this is what this is about to
getting getting us ready to moveinto deep spiritual teachings,
(14:26):
knowing that there has to be asense of purity to be able to
understand them, and then thecommitment to practice,
Kamala Rose (14:36):
which produces that state of equipoise between
pleasure and pain, between thedualities where we are able to
rest the self is able to rest inits own nature. And as you were
saying and looking at verse 45transcending the three gunas.
(15:00):
One is free from the pairs ofopposites and centers only on
the self, right? Such afoundational yogic teaching,
drawing from the language ofSankhya, the three gunas,
sattva, rajas and tamas, andbeing free from the pairs of
(15:20):
opposites, the van de VA andcentered only on the self, on
the Atman, right? So, as you'redescribing this idea of stinking
of enlightenment, right? We can,that's still in the Gunas,
right, where you can be soblissful you're almost silly,
right? It's kind of an airhead,right? We can, we were still in
(15:43):
the goonas, right? There's somany, you know, in the in the
spiritual world to, you know, wecan have so many experiences
that that change us and alterus, but we have to remember that
this real experience is beyondthe Gunas, right? And that is
this moving actually beyond thegunas. We can only do
(16:06):
internally, while we're alive,right? We have to move right. We
need our rajas to wake up right.
We We need our sattva to haveclarity, to understand what's
going on, right? Sort out what'sgoing on. And we certainly need
our Thomas to be able to restand relax. I taught a
(16:28):
restorative class this morning,and right? So all by resourcing
that grounding and yeah, learnlearning the learned skill of
relaxing that's so importantthat we learn in yoga, but right
again, this, this experiencethat Krishna is defining as
yoga, is it transcends the threegunas,
Nischala Joy Devi (16:51):
yes, right,
Kamala Rose (16:55):
beyond mystical, right? It's free from pleasure
pain. It's not motivated byanything, and it is centered on
the self, the soul, theauthentic nature of every
person. And now, after we'vetaken this side trip into or an
(17:17):
explanation into motive, rightunderstanding that people are
coming from somewhere in theirspiritual pursuits, often,
right? They're coming from somemotive. I want to have peace of
mind. I want to have a blissfulexperience. I want to have a
religious experience, right? Iwant to alleviate my pain, and I
(17:39):
want to gain riches. That was alot of the reason that people
approached the priestly caste inthat time, the time of the Gita,
was, you know, to accrueblessings. We see the same kind
of thing happening in theCatholic Church, to accrue
blessings, to have that priestpray for you, right? So, going
(18:00):
beyond this is a state that isreally being described here as
being beyond any type of motive,of getting anything out of it,
of gaining anything. I think,like you said, it is its own
reward, right? Yeah,
Nischala Joy Devi (18:19):
I think one thing that's a little bit
probably, if I was rewriting thewhole thing, I would have 245,
2.45 a, two point 40 5b putbecause I think it's a little
bit of a rough transitionbetween the minds of such people
(18:42):
who are drawn to pleasure andpower are unlikely to attain
Samadhi. And then we saytranscending the three gunas. So
where is that in there? Becausewhen you talk about transcending
the Gunas, this is a very highlevel of experience with the
(19:02):
spiritual Seeker. So I think itcould be a little bit confusing,
and I'd like to dial it back alittle bit in that for as you
beautifully describe the Gunasthe three. Gunas the three Guna,
the sattva, has to become moredominant the other three have to
(19:23):
be there as supportive. But ifwe stay with Thomas, we will
never do practice, because it's,it's inactivity leading to
inertia. So, and that's, Ithink, where a lot of this comes
in, and this Thomas, we don'twant to do it ourselves, so we
go to someone who we think ismore elevated than we are, and
(19:47):
in actuality, it may or may notbe the case, but we put our
confidence in that person andbelieve them, whereas they may
not even know themselves. So, sogetting that Thomas under
control, and using it when weneed it, for rest, for
(20:07):
rejuvenation, etc, and then thenext is moving and calming down
the rajas, this is somethingI've seen for years and years
and years. I remember I wasasked to teach a meditation
retreat at one point, and I wentin just expecting to do just
that and realize that none ofthem could sit still. They had
(20:30):
been practicing Asana for yearsand years and years, but they
weren't able to sit still. Soafter the Thomas, after the
ability to want to either not dothings or to sleep too much, or
whatever, we have to calm thatrajas down. And that's what I
think the asanas do, the hathayoga and the pranayama, they
(20:53):
calm it down, because then wemove into sattva. And when we
move into sattva, it's so mucheasier to transcend the Gunas
from that point, from the pointof everything is in balance.
Okay, now we can let go of it. Ihad a very interesting thing
happen. I was just recently inIndia, and we went into this
(21:15):
beautiful, magnificent RadhaKrishna temple, and we didn't
have enough coins. We smallbills or coins to put in to give
to each of the priests as theygive you. And there was a big
sign on the door that said, putin the in the boxes. Don't give
(21:36):
it to the priests, right? So itsaid very clearly there. So we
managed to get a small billready, and I went up to this
small altar on the side, I can'tremember, I think was Kali or
Durga, and the priest wassitting there getting ready to
apply the powders on my head.
And I put it in the big box, andhe put down his hand, crossed
(22:01):
his arms, and wouldn't give meanything because I didn't give
it to him directly. This to me,talks exactly to this. Exactly
to this. His job is to sit thereand give out the prasad from the
deity to anyone, whether theygive him money or not, but he
(22:23):
didn't, he chose to go for thematerial. So I think we start to
see this in the life and howreligion has adapted itself to
our greed, or has our greed beenthe place of religion? And I
(22:46):
think we have to be very carefulto take away there was a book
written many years ago. I didn'tread the book, but the title was
fantastic, and it was calledspiritual materialism. And I
think we have to be very carefulnot to confuse the ritual with
the actual spirituality. And ifyou don't give enough in the
(23:13):
basket on a Sunday or a Fridayor a Saturday or wherever,
whatever day you're going, thatyou won't get that spiritual
enlightenment, which, again, isridiculous because it's, it's,
it's spirituality has nothing todo with materialism, the
simplest, the simplest people.
(23:35):
So I think that these slogansare very, very powerful at this
moment. And start again,starting slow, try to do things
that are not so tamasic, oreating food that's so tamasic or
then move to the rajas, eatingthings simpler, less spiced, and
(23:57):
doing, starting to do thingsthat make other people feel good
instead of just yourself,
Kamala Rose (24:04):
you're reminding me of a wonderful film I saw
recently I wanted to recommendto our listeners. It's called
Fire brand, the life ofCatherine Parr the last, the
final, sixth and final wife ofHenry the Eighth, who is it's a
(24:25):
remarkable story. AliciaVikander plays her. And this is
a study of us, a woman who issurviving right after all of her
predecessors had their heads cutoff, right? So this is right,
the new Church of Englandopposing the Catholic Church.
It's the time of theReformation, and we have this
(24:47):
right in the middle of all this,the story of Catherine Parr, who
is a deeply spiritual woman, andin fact, is so bold as to write
her own thoughts on. Thespiritual experience, unmediated
by priests, and the this genuineinterior experience available to
(25:13):
all right, at this time, the bigtopic was translating the Bible
into English so people couldactually read and understand the
teachings of this Jesus thatthey are expected to
unconditionally follow. So, youknow, we see echoes of this same
subject through and throughhistory. And I think there is
(25:36):
something there about about howwomen, because of the sphere of
life that we deal in, right asmothers and caregivers and end
of life officiants, right? We,we, I think we're very we come
(25:57):
and go out of thesetranscendental states very
naturally. And we've talkedabout this a lot that you know,
it's the mystical. Is our homerealm, right? So I do find
something very almostsubversively feminist about
these verses to challengereligious authority, to allow us
(26:18):
to challenge religiousauthority, and like our you know
four sisters before us, likeCatherine Parr and you know
subsequent women through the youknow East and West, who have
shown us a very, a verybeautiful expression of the
(26:38):
spiritual life outside of anyreligious confines that seems to
come to us as a song or anatural rhythm, you know,
tapping into the land and asense of belonging to the earth,
that this is one another areawhere I, you know, have my own,
(27:05):
you know, dialog with the Gitaon this issue of justice, right?
I don't necessarily feel like Ineed to save the world and, you
know, conquer this way. Rather,I feel aligned to care for
what's good, and, you know, tohelp and to support and taking
more of a nurturing or caringtype of dialog, right? I think,
(27:32):
I think when we look at this, Ithink just what we're talking
about here with the Gunas that,you know, we we should
understand this, but I think oneway that we often think we
understand subjects like theGunas is they have to be subdued
and conquered and overcome. AndI just I don't. That certainly
(27:53):
hasn't worked for me in my pathand my interiorization of the
spiritual the yoga teachings,right? We can't really free
ourselves from the pairs ofopposites. We're always there,
but we have to have the wisdomand the insight that is able to
see beyond, to more, to aninherent unity that is maybe
(28:19):
bigger than dualities, ratherthan the sort of nihilism that
often accompanies these, thissort of yoga teachings and a
feminine, a feminine taking ofthe the Gunas would say that,
(28:41):
you know, we are in the realm ofnature, but at all times, are
aware of what's more than thethree gunas, and because we're
alive, right, that we can'treally get beyond it just how
you said, sattva has To take thepredominance. This is what our
(29:02):
yoga practices are about, right?
Our practice of Asana, as yousaid, is going to help us to
mediate the rajas, but we haveto accompany that with
pranayama, and that will help uswith the Thomas help us to bring
get some of that residuallaziness and apathy, and you
know, the world is certainlyagitating a level of inertia in
(29:25):
us, in a way think, you know,choosing clarity and A voluntary
peace is a good path to go.
Nischala Joy Devi (29:44):
The next thing that comes up, which is
very interesting for me, isthese Gunas that we are now
being asked to transcend. Weneed to. Look for this in our
teachers and our leaders too.
Where are they in this? Becausewhat has to come up in this
(30:06):
natural day and age is thiswhole abuse cycle that you put
your faith in someone or aninstitution, and then you find
out at some point that there wasmajor abuses of different kinds
of nature, financial nature,sexual nature, physical nature,
etc. What do we do with that,and how do we reconcile that
(30:32):
with the religion that's, Ithink we're drives people into
the mysticism of it, because ifwe continue to allow this level
of abuse without stopping it, itwill take over, and it will
(30:55):
poison even the spiritual aspectof any known religion. And I see
this over and over again,people, especially women, also
giving an excuse. Oh, well, it'sbecause of this. It's because
they're celibate. Is becausethey're asked to do this. It's
(31:16):
because that see, what it saysto me is the person has not
tuned in to this mysticalaspect, whether it's in yoga,
whether it's in Catholicism,Christianity, Judaism, Bucha,
people going anywhere. If wedon't get to that mystical
aspect which all the traditionshave, then the confusion comes,
(31:39):
why am I doing this? And why amI doing this comes, and then
they start doing things that areinappropriate, without that
backing, without that theunderstanding of who we are.
This keeps getting perpetuatedover and over, and what people
(32:04):
are doing, instead of drawingaway from the religion into
spirituality, they're letting goof the whole baby with the bath
water. And I think this is tome, the sadness of what's
happening. If people come to meand they say, my teacher has
done this, my rabbi has donethis, my priest has done this,
(32:25):
and I say, then let them go, butdon't let go of the sacred
teachings that comes from 1000sof years ago, not from these
people. Because what people aredoing is they're branding now
these ancient teachings to belike their own. And it's not all
these have come from 1000s and1000s of years. Do we put a
(32:48):
little personality on it? Yes,but not to change it. And I
think this is what we're tryingto do Kamala, is really explain
it from a different way, notchange anything, but say, okay,
you can look at it this way, butmystically. If you go in and
really meditate on this, you'regoing to find something
(33:11):
completely different. So I thinkthat this has to be looked at
also this. Who? Who are wegetting the knowledge from which
gun are they in, and have theytranscended
Kamala Rose (33:30):
issues with who our teachers are, and developing the
discernment to tell a goodteacher is very sagely advice,
something I think needs to beheard as often as possible in
the spiritual landscape today. Iyou know you're such a
(33:51):
forerunner in this. You haveheard stories of spiritual abuse
for decades. Yeah, right. You,you're the one of the
forerunners of this, right?
There's a lot of dialogs goingon where, where people are
discovering that things havehappened to them physically,
right? Maybe they even blockedit out and they couldn't even
(34:12):
remember that somethinghappened. I just saw another
film that was show it was astory of a local guru in India
who had had the whole town, allof the young women, uh,
ritually, came and did sex pujawith him. Sex sex seva with him.
(34:34):
Every, every day, all day. Andthen there were places to watch,
from a gallery where the menwould come and watch seva. It
was unbelievable, true story.
And you know, was, was heeventually, uh, dealt with, not
(34:55):
harshly enough. Yeah, right. Butthese kinds of stories and these
sort of things that. Go on underthe cloak of religion. And I
think there's a part of takingthe mystical and kind of
shrouding in mystery, anythingthat deals with spirituality
(35:15):
that says to people you're toocommon to understand, right? So
there's Oh, there's a there's areason for this. There's a
reason for this. And you know,as the you know, 1000s of
Catholic priests have, you know,have shown Oh no, no, they they
clearly have something, some waythat they've framed this, that
(35:38):
they all share, all of theseabusers share, and this is the
spiritual climate that we livein and what modern women are
dealing with in reading theBhagavad Gita and other
spiritual texts, right? Thetexts on on yoga are very you
(36:00):
know, all of the teachers aremen. It was handed down by men
to men, copied by men. All ofthe examples were given to men,
and we now as Western women whohave been been brought up or
been part of the women'smovement east and west, we find
(36:23):
ourselves finding these veryancient teachings filled with
the very patriarchy that we arerebelling against, right? And so
I think it's very appropriate tonote this in this part of
chapter two that I think we'rewe have so much. We've got a lot
(36:44):
to work with just to questionthat and and I think that's our
attitude towards the BhagavadGita, is that it's an ancient
Sanskrit work that's handed downto us today. But I don't think
we want to bring those moralswith no with it. We're not
trying to emulate the lifestyle.
We're trying to take themystical teachings that apply to
(37:04):
us as modern women, inheritorsof a movement of empowerment
that like Catherine Parr andQueen Elizabeth after her right
these women of power andintelligence who really said,
you know, and so many others whoreally tried to show that you
(37:29):
don't need a media women, youhave the direct spiritual
experience happening yourself,my gurus and teachers, so many
Women who have taught me overthe years that you are entitled
to your experience. You areentitled to yourself the way
everyone else is. And I thinkthe more we empower each other
(37:51):
and support each other in ourawakening, the diversity of
voices of what it sounds likefor female embodied people you
know, and even you know all allof our gender identities, having
the freedom to speak openlyabout what it feels Like to be
(38:14):
awakening without the rigidityof patriarchy?
Nischala Joy Devi (38:24):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. The
question that comes to my mindis, how, if we are indoctrinated
from small children, how do wegrow that discernment to be able
to know who is leading us on theright way and who isn't. I've
(38:44):
heard countless case historiesof abuse from spiritual
teachers, from the disciples ofspiritual teachers who were
convinced, at least initially,that the things that were being
done to them was for theirspiritual growth and
(39:05):
development. And even thoughthere was a voice inside of them
that said, No, this is not true.
This is not right. The thecontinuation from the voice at
the external voice saying, No,this is the way it should be.
Become stronger than your innervoice, and that's how the people
are taken advantage of. Becausewe all know, even small children
(39:29):
know when something is notright, but they don't have the
power to do anything about it.
So I think, along with thistranscendence of the Gunas, we
have to be very careful to placethe spiritual teachers that we
have not on a pedestal, butinstead, in the eyes of the
(39:54):
Gunas, where are they? And isthis someone that you may need
to learn? Something from for aperiod of time, and then move
on, because there's, there'sdifferent kinds of gurus.
There's something that we callthe Sat Guru, which is the guru
beyond any kind of these issuesthat we're talking about, sat
(40:18):
the truth, the absolute, theprimary that will take us as far
as we need to go, maybe in form,most of the time, not in form.
And then there's the upagurus,the gurus of the everyday life
that we can find to help us. Canyou teach me how to do mantra?
(40:38):
Can you teach me how to change aflat tire. Can you do that?
There are upper gurus, andthere's somebody, if there's
somebody to emulate. We dootherwise. We just learn that,
and then we pull back thisgiving of our complete power to
another human being has to stop.
It has to stop, whether it's aguru, whether it's a sports
(41:01):
hero. Very interesting. I wentin to get some supplies the
other day to a food store righthere, and it was the day before
the Super Bowl, and they theywere two young men behind the
counter, and they said to me,Oh, you're going to watch the
(41:21):
big game. You know, they werekind of perky like that. And I
just shook my head, no. I didn'twant to get into it. And they
pushed and they said, Not a fan.
And I said, No, not exactly. Isaid, I just, I don't approve of
that, the way that they act. AndI said, and you know, it's the
(41:44):
biggest day for domesticviolence of the year. And one of
the young men said, Oh, I guessif the team loses. I said, No,
either way, they're so pumped upon testosterone that they go
home and they beat their wifeand children. So he was shocked,
and what I realized is I couldsee at that moment, his whole
(42:08):
world took a quarter of a turn,and he started to look at this a
little bit different. I wasn'tangry, I wasn't pushy, I just
stated a fact, and I said, youcan look it up if you don't
under if you don't believe me.
And he said, Wow, I never eventhought of that. I think I'll
just watch the commercials, hesaid. And off I went. But I feel
(42:30):
like it's the Gita, theScriptures, the Bible, all these
books give us a spiritualblueprint, but not just for our
spiritual growth. It's all foralso for our human growth and to
become better people. Not justfollow the crowd, not just do
(42:52):
something because someone says,this is the big game of the
year, but everything, because ifyou follow in one thing, will
you follow in the next? Whenwill you start empowering
yourself to make your owndecisions? And this is the
caveat when it's not popular.
Unknown (43:15):
That's the hard part.
Kamala Rose (43:19):
Learning discernment is one of the most
important lessons that yogateaches us. And recurring theme
in the Bhagavad Gita being ableto discern those very things,
what, where? Where do I need tolearn from someone else? What do
I need to learn from someonesomeone else? When have I
(43:41):
learned enough, and the abilityto discern the quality of
teacher that we haveencountered? You know, I think
this is a huge area in the yogaworld today, and I feel like
there's a there's a part of manyWesterners who are encountering
(44:04):
the sort of exotic Easterntradition of yoga and
spirituality and come to theguru question with quite a
romanticism, right, right? Whenyou know, when you're in love
like that, you are not on your Agame of discernment, right? How
many have walked into somestupid situations on that?
(44:29):
Right? So we have to, we've haveto give ourselves permission to
trust ourselves and what weknow. And when it's time to
change, it's time to change,right? Right? Something we've
both learned it's time tochange. And there was a period
that it was very important tohave the specific guidance and
(44:50):
the monastic training and all ofthis. So I think our words are
coming from, you know, certainkind of experience of. Living
with our gurus, and, you know,being very involved in Ashram
life and having to make thedifficult decision to step away
and begin to make thosedecisions independently about
(45:14):
our spiritual future anddevelopment. And I hope that our
words and experience can empowerother women to give yourself
permission to you know, to trustyourself and believe that you
have the capacity to learn andgrow, sometimes with the help of
(45:36):
others, but also by practice.
And this is what we love so muchabout yoga, as it gives us
practices and things that we cando with the body and mind to to
literally change and to growourselves and to someone who has
a different level of emotionalmaturity. And it that's very
(45:58):
real and very tangible. And I'dlike to add that, you know, we
did go into a lot in thisepisode today. So if you have
experienced any spiritual abuse,there are resources that you can
reach out to and connect with. Iknow they're doing a lot of work
(46:19):
on this at so as in London, andthey could connect you with some
of the researchers who areworking in that. I think one
thing that academia gives us isa sort of objective, neutral
place that's not pro religiousright? It's not, it's sort of
neutral, does tries not to feelone way or the other about these
(46:43):
sort of things. And you know, wehope that you'll feel supported.
And you know, as as the as theyoga community evolves, and we
start to hear these threads andthese narratives emerging, and
we and our, you know, and wewant to help and support each
(47:04):
other. I think nishtel is soright that coming to a reckoning
over, let's say some of the waysthat we, you know, we fell head
over heels in love with yogaand, you know jumped in head
first, and maybe, you know, justgiving ourselves permission to
(47:26):
adapt and grow and change and totrust yourself and your
conscience as that inner guru to
Nischala Joy Devi (47:38):
think One of the difficulties is the Sangha,
at least in my experience,because if you have that
clarity, that's that you've beengraced with. And then you start
talking to other people and theysay, Oh no, no, that's not true,
that's not right, that's not theway it's supposed to be, or way
(47:59):
it is. And then you start tohave doubt. That's that's where
we have to go back to thepractices. You have to really go
in and listen, as we talkedabout with Mother Teresa, to
that voice within. And you haveto start trusting it when it
says, This isn't right. Thisisn't right because it will pull
(48:23):
you down too. It's not just theteacher, it's it's those that
condone what the teacher isdoing. And we saw this, there
was a group going to aparticular ashram in India, and
I said, I'm sorry. I won't gobecause that teacher has been
(48:44):
abusive to women, and I don't goplaces where I knowingly know
that. And people said, Oh, wedon't care. He's a good teacher.
And that kind of thing, thatkind of experience always stops
me in my tracks, because to me,the first thing is the moral the
(49:12):
moral aptitude. From there, thespirituality grows. It's like
the soil with which you'replanting the spiritual seeds. If
you plant them in bad soil,you're not going to get good
plants. So it's this kind ofthing that I think we all have
(49:33):
to look at. And if someone inyour community who has a little
bit more of that light to beable to see clearly, listen to
them, talk to them before youmake any kind of decision. And
ask yourself, Is this somethingthat most yoga teachers will
(49:54):
teach you? Most gurus will do?
Where does it say this in theScripture? Yeah, where is that?
So be careful, because it's, itseems to be growing in
popularity, this abuse, and it'sbeing shoved to the side. And I
think this is one of the biggestmistakes, because you can't
(50:15):
possibly get to that point ofknowing yourself as a yogi and
condone physical, sexual ormental abuse. So be careful. Be
careful when you choose someone,don't give everything. Just hold
(50:37):
back a little bit. See who thatperson is. Watch them. What did
they do? How did they act? Itsays it right here in the
Bhagavad Gita. How does someoneof steady wisdom Act? Read it.
Do they act like that? Yeah.
Kamala Rose (50:57):
So well. Thank you so much for joining us today on
a woman's Gita podcast, we'vecovered a lot today on some
important verses in the Gita. Wethank you so much for listening,
and hope that you will share ourpodcast with others who might
enjoy this, this radical dialogand and hit subscribe and maybe
(51:23):
leave us a review. We would loveit. We'd love to hear from you.
And anything you'd love for usto talk about, we'd love to hear
from you. Thank you so much forlistening. Namaste. Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (51:38):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nistula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a women's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(52:02):
Namaste. You.
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