March 2, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of A Women’s Gita Podcast, hosts Kamala Rose and Nischala Joy Devi dive into Krishna’s definition of yoga as presented in Bhagavad Gita 2.39. Exploring the concept of Buddhi Yoga, they discuss how to transcend self-interest and cultivate a deeper sense of interconnectedness in daily life. Through personal anecdotes, scriptural insights, and practical wisdom, they guide listeners in understanding how spiritual practice is not separate from the material world—but rather, an essential part of it.
Tune in to discover how yoga can transform not just your inner world, but also your engagement with others, helping to break the bonds of karma and live with greater purpose.
Key Talking Points:
- Krishna’s definition of yoga in Bhagavad Gita 2.39
- Understanding Buddhi Yoga—yoking oneself to wisdom and higher perspective
- How the Atman (eternal self) and Dharma (duty) are interconnected
- Debunking myths around "annihilating the ego" in spiritual practice
- The importance of balancing spiritual wisdom with action in the world
- The role of meditation in slowing down reactions and cultivating compassion
- Practical ways to integrate spiritual insight into daily responsibilities
- How retreats and spiritual immersion can help in re-entering the world with clarity
- Breaking the bonds of karma through selfless action and interconnected awareness
Join us as we explore how Buddhi Yoga offers a timeless and practical approach to living a more conscious, compassionate, and spiritually fulfilling life.
✨ Subscribe and share this episode with fellow seekers, and don’t forget to leave us a review! Namaste.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lilavati Eberle (00:02):
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy Devi and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Unknown (00:42):
Namaste, I'm Kamala rose
Nischala Joy Devi (00:46):
and I'm Nischala Devi. Thank
Kamala Rose (00:48):
you so much for joining us for this episode of a
woman's Gita today, we're goingto be picking up on such an
important verse shloka, we'repicking up where we left off.
And our last podcast discussingnow Krishnas definition of yoga.
(01:09):
Nishila, would you like to startwith reading us our translation
of 239
Nischala Joy Devi (01:15):
you have been given the essence of self
knowledge now here the practicalwisdom of yoga through which
bonds of karma can be broken.
Kamala Rose (01:28):
And I'll read this one in this original Sanskrit,
yesha te Bihi ta Sankey, Buchanu Buddh to ya, ya, Partha,
karma. Bandham prahasyasi,right? So we're working with,
(01:50):
we're working with a couple ofkey words here, and the essence
of self knowledge, which in theBhagavad Gita is called Sankhya.
Many of our yoga students aregoing to be familiar with that
word which is, which isimportant, as, let's say, the
theoretical framework of yogagives us, you know, the
(02:11):
vocabulary and the world view ofyoga. And Krishna says, Now hear
the practical wisdom of yoga.
And here he says, buddhir yoga,to be Mom, should renew, listen
carefully to the practicalinsight of yoga. I think it's
worth noting before we move onso much that this practical
(02:38):
wisdom of yoga that we'retalking about in the Gita is
we're going to be Krishna isgoing to weave together for us a
different definition, I think,than what we're used to, if
we're students of the yoga sutraand of this idea of theoretical
yoga philosophy, which is alsoknown as Sankhya, this karma
(03:01):
yoga that Krishna will bedescribing is really taking what
we've already covered in theGita, right the these main
subjects that have been woventogether through chapter two,
the transcendence of the Atman,the first subject, the higher
(03:23):
self, the spirit, the soul, theabsolute transcendence of the
self. And then right before thisverse, we had a dialog on
Dharma, where Krishna spoke toArjuna about his important role
to play in the world. Now thatwe get to verse 39 we're really
(03:46):
bringing those two threads withus, the thread of the
transcendent Atman and thethread of our role in the world,
our responsibility to the world,right? So when he says, You've
given us, we've been given theessence of self knowledge or
(04:07):
Sankhya, and he's given us atheoretical framework that there
is a transcendent self, andthere is a world of nature, of
the body, the personality, thepsyche, right? That we live
within we are both spirit andnature. Now we're going to hear
how to apply this the practicalwisdom of yoga, through which
(04:34):
the bonds of karma can bebroken. You. So this yoga that
Krishna is speaking about, hesays, here bud, here Yogi to be
Mom, should renew, listen to howto practice this yoga, which he
defines clearly in this verse asa. Yoking oneself to the buddhi,
(04:59):
which is one of the componentsin Santa, right? Buddhi is the
insightful mind. It's thereasoning mind, the intuitive
mind, the wisdom faculty that isable to have a greater
perspective than the ego or thesense of individuality, right?
(05:22):
So by yoking oneself to thispart of the mind, we're able to
get a bigger picture, right?
This is the yoga that'sdescribed here in verse 39
Nischala Joy Devi (05:39):
I think the other thing that it's doing to
to me, like on a mystical level,when I look at it from that
perspective, it's almost like weare from our small self. Once we
realize there's so much more, webegin to put this web out. And
(06:00):
there's a web that spiritualityand the practices make stronger.
And what I hear Krishna sayinghere is you have to go from the
inside and from the outside.
It's almost a simultaneousmovement. So as you move in,
you're also changing the way youaffect and are affected by the
(06:21):
world. And to me, this is very,a very important point, because
most of the time spirituality,or let's call it, religion, is
compartmentalized. So we do iton Sunday or Saturday or Friday,
whatever the holy bookprescribes, but the rest of the
(06:43):
time we're not really thinkingabout it. We're off somewhere
else. And it brings back to methe idea of cultivating the
spirituality that we were taughtas monastics, and one of the
things we were taught. And Iknow this is true also for
Christian monastics, becauseI've spent a lot of time also
(07:04):
with in that milieu that we arereminded constantly of this
connection, of this of who weare, both spiritually and
physically. For instance, we hadprayers for everything. So when
we took a shower, we had aspecific prayer that we said. So
(07:25):
we were taking care of the bodyat the same time, we were taking
care and reminding ourselves ofthe spirit and the essence the
same thing, before we ate afterwe ate, when we were washing the
dishes, every single thing had aconnection to it, not just as a
(07:45):
rote thing for us to memorize,but to remind us constantly that
we we step with two feet, one inthe spiritual world And one in
the physical world. And here, tome, this is what Christian is
really trying to bring togetherand saying, don't just think
(08:06):
it's only when you go andmeditate, or only when you do
this. This is all the time.
Everything that you do becomesspiritualized. Everything that
you do becomes part of not onlyyour dharma, but the way you
live every day in the world. Sothis, to me, is a very, very
(08:29):
important aspect of it for allof us to remember when it says
you have been given the essenceof self knowledge now hear the
practical wisdom of yoga. And tome, what it means is take that,
the essence of self knowledgethat you've been given, and
bring it into the practical ofeveryday life.
Kamala Rose (08:55):
I think the practical of everyday life the
way we live. I think there's,there's so much in this verse
that's so instructive. Thepractical wisdom, I think the
practical wisdom here that I amgleaning is the practical wisdom
that can only be discerned bythe higher mind, right, by a
(09:18):
higher perspective, right? Weknow from sankia those three
components of the mind, buddhi,the highest aspect of the mind,
we could say, the mind thatthinks in terms of we and us and
all right, this is the part ofthe mind that has the capacity
to glimpse or to behold thetranscendent Atman, right? It's
(09:45):
the, it's of the sattvic nature.
It's clear it's transcendent andinclusive. It's an inclusive of
all Exactly, yeah, right. Andthen we have ahamkara, which is
the eye maker, right, denser andmade of. Of personality and
individuality, the sense that Iexist separately than the other
things around me and the otherpeople around me, right? And the
(10:08):
densest yet is Manas, which wecan call the conscious mind, the
nervous system, the workings andcoordinator of the five senses,
right? So this verse really isspeaking to the inner work,
right? What we're doinginternally in karma yoga, and
(10:29):
that is the effort throughmeditation, to lift above what
is solely an individual and comeinto a greater sense of
belonging to a whole, right? Apractical wisdom, as you say,
where we're all connected, wherewe are all dependent on each
(10:50):
other. I think being able tolook at situations from this
point of view, right? We're ableto look more at what's good for
all of us? Yeah, what's theright thing to do for all of us,
not just for me, not just my ownpersonal self interest and
maintaining my own personalkarma, right? We can look beyond
(11:15):
that into a larger sense, wherewe are all connected and we are
all one, this practical internalwork, I think, is what is being
defined here, as Buddha yoga, aninternal union, or yoking. To
that perspective,
Nischala Joy Devi (11:41):
I agree with exactly what you're saying. I
think that. I think this iswhat's so unusual about yoga,
and why it's why people don'tunderstand it, because there's
nothing really like it in mosttraditions, the fact that you
are giving given a set ofpractices that lead you to a
(12:06):
certain point. It's not justprayer, it's not just
meditation. We're we're lookingat every all the three that
you've talked about, the booty.
There's practices for that,there's practices for the Aham
car. There's practices for themodes. Everything that we have
has, there's a practice to allowit to purify, and when it
(12:27):
purifies, then we can use it inits totality. There's none of
the the essential dichotomiesthere. And I guess I think
particularly when we're talkingabout the sense of, I the
ahamkara, the I think a lot ofpeople misunderstand it. And I
(12:50):
remember at one point I wassomewhere, and there was a
surgeon who was a neurologicalsurgeon, and he went in, he
started talking about the bootyand or the hunger, sorry. And he
said, you just have to go in andannihilate it, get rid of it
completely. And I remember beingthere, just being shocked and
(13:12):
saying something like that. Andobviously, from a surgeon's
point of view, that's what youdo, but from a Yogi's point of
view, it's a purification. Soyou're the personality that
comes out of that is not takenaway. One of the things that I
think people misunderstand iseven if you become realized, you
(13:32):
don't lose your personality.
Your personality is still there.
It's just now you have a senseof knowing that you didn't have
before. So the personality isit's refined, but we still
maintain it. Otherwise we'd allbe walking around like robots,
(13:53):
all the saints would all be thesame. And if you've ever read
about them, you know they're alldifferent, and they're all a
little bit according to ourvalues in this plane of
consciousness, a little bitnuts, because they just that's
just who they are. They just gooff a little bit. Ramakrishna
(14:13):
used to dress in all kinds ofclothes and sneak into the
women's baths and all kinds ofthings, because he wanted to
know what does a woman feellike, so he would do all these
things. So I think that when weget back to this, we have to
understand that it's apurification of the senses. It's
not a destruction of the senses.
(14:37):
It's not even an inhibition ofthe senses, but it's that
purification that then when welook at the sunset, it's a very
different sunset than we lookedat before.
Kamala Rose (14:49):
I think that's very much worth emphasizing,
especially in terms of this. Youknow, the beginning of this
verse speaking about Sankhya,which is. An old one of the six
darshanas of Indian philosophy,very old. Probably dates prior
to but copula wrote the Sankhyakaraka around 500 before the
(15:15):
Common Era, right? So it's,we're looking at something
that's very old. It's beeninterpreted by so many men over
so many 1000s of years, and it'salmost like we have a ranking
system like the Buddhist betterthan the ahamkara, that's just
better than the Manas, which isbetter than the senses. In fact,
(15:38):
the Katha Upanishad, where thatwe spoke of earlier with the
chariot metaphor, just flat out,says the booty is better than
the ahamkara is better than theManas. And right as Westerners,
we hear this in a in such a wayof ranking, and we think right
as as young spiritual aspirants,we can internalize that in a in
(16:01):
a way that can be not sohelpful, where it turns into
annihilating the ego, killingthe ego, eliminating the ego,
right? And for people who havebeen on the path for so many
years, I think it's worthdebunking this myth that there's
any way to kill the ego or toeliminate this. Or can we become
(16:23):
selfless? Yes, we can becomeselfless in our actions, but
losing the personality and theperson who you are is certainly
not what this means, right?
Really just means rising aboveand being not subtracting from
but adding to, right? We'readding everyone to our point of
(16:46):
view, instead of simply onlymyself, right? We're adding all
people into, really the motivefor our actions and we're
taking, we're taking that widerweb point of view, again, to to
remember these threads thatKrishna has been weaving for us,
(17:11):
the transcendence of the Atman,that transcendent Atman in all
beings, yes, and theresponsibility to act in the
world in a way that is authenticand and in line with our nature,
right? So I think you saidearlier, nishilla, so
(17:36):
accurately, that we're lookingat more of a blending. I think
we have to look at befriendingthe ahamkara, right, including
the ahamkara, which is notalways easy, right? Yes, it's
not always easy to get oneselfon board with a, with a you
know, especially when you wantsomething, right? You really
(17:58):
want it. You want it to work outthat way. You're very pushing
hard for that to happen, right?
To look up and think, but what'sbest for everyone? What's best
for what's best in the timing,right? What's best for all of
the multiple strands woventogether in time? It might be a
(18:20):
different answer than what youwant, and this is really where
we are acting out of a sense ofa greater good and a greater a
greater sense of identity andbelonging to the world.
Nischala Joy Devi (18:38):
I think that's so important to
understand what you just said,Because I two things can happen
simultaneously. And I think thisis we've come we're sort of
going to the physical world. Thetwo two objects can occupy the
(18:58):
same place, the same space atthe same time. That's not true
in the spiritual world. They canso we can be working with and
recognizing our inner self atthe same time recognizing how
we're acting in the world,whether to unite or to separate,
(19:18):
because it has to be done at thesame time. And I think this is
what happens, is we spend somany years in the material. We
go to school, we go to college,we go to university, we go to
specialty schools, and wehaven't thought about our
spirit. And then all of a suddensomething happens, and we say,
oh, I should probably startthinking about who I am, other
(19:42):
than being doctor, nurse,garbage collector, plumber,
whatever I am, we can't drop thematerial, although some people
do, they'll go into a monasteryfor a period of time. But those
are those days are pretty muchgone. Most people aren't doing
that. Anymore. So what we'redoing then is we're picking up
(20:03):
the spiritual after we have,well, developed the material,
but not giving as much energy tothe spiritual, because we just
don't have the time anymore.
We've given so much of it so andthen we say, well, I don't
really experience and not reallyexperience the aspect of
spirituality, because we haven'tstrengthened it enough. We
(20:24):
haven't made it as familiar asthe physical is. And I think
that's one of the things ofyoga, is to slowly draw us in.
We begin with the physical, andthen we slowly come in to the
place where you're comfortable,not only even more than
comfortable, you're yearning forthat quiet stillness within. And
(20:47):
you know at that point, when youstart yearning for that, that
the material has not encroachedin the spiritual. You know that
it has stayed where it belonged,and you can visit it anytime you
want, and now bring thespiritual into it. And I to me,
that's really the goal of livingin the world as a spiritual and
(21:10):
physical being at the same time.
And yoga seems to have the waysto do that.
Kamala Rose (21:18):
And this is why I think retreats are important,
yep, that we can have aprolonged period of time to
focus on meditation, leave theworld, leave your job behind,
leave thing, leave the the worldof everyday life behind for a
period of time, even to spendsome time in an ashram, right?
It gives a great perspective andteaches you the skills, right?
(21:43):
But so we're very clear here inthe Bhagavad Gita, the purpose
of this yoga, this buddhi yogathat Krishna is teaching, is to
live it in the world. Is tobring it into our sense of civic
responsibility and the role, theunique role that each of us has
to play in the world,
Nischala Joy Devi (22:04):
and the spiritual world has really
discouraged us up until veryrecently, even though it's
written 1000s of years ago,you're really discouraged from
bringing the spirit back in.
You're encouraged to stay inthose ashrams, to stay in those
monotonic convent to keep thatflow go. Flow going. I remember,
(22:25):
how many times have I told, beentold you can't have a foot in
two different boats, because ifyou do when they start to move
apart, you can guess whathappens. And I was told this
over and over and over again,but yet, in the world, you have
to live like that. If you don'tlive like that, you've lost
Kamala Rose (22:53):
and this is the great innovation of the Bhagavad
Gita, is bringing together thatworldly life with the inner
sense of monasticism. Icompletely agree with you that
we this should be emphasized atthe beginning of one's, you
know, one's experience in anashram is, you know, consider
this a, you know, a very semipermanent situation, right? And
(23:21):
a place where you can learn somethings that will teach you how
to find that authentic nature ofyourself so that you can live
your life. You can play thatpart. I completely agree that
this would be a greatcontribution on behalf of the
ashrams of the world, to tellpeople, to instruct them in the
(23:43):
ways of this Gita, that youryour role now is to help the
world to become a better place.
You know, this was, this was bigfor me that, you know, I saw
that I had helped the people inthe ashram as much as I could.
And these insights are reallyfor they're for the world.
They're to make the world a morespiritual place. And I think
(24:07):
that one of the reasons that ourwarriors in the battle of
kurushetra have gotten into thismess in the first place is so
much of that spiritualengagement and that spiritual
identity has been forgotten,right? It's been corrupted by
the the wants and the desires ofthe world, right, represented by
(24:30):
the cowrovas. Right, even inthis situation as the Pandavas
are looking to do the rightthing, it's look how difficult
it is for them to fight, to dothe right thing, when the when
the society, which I think isrepresented by the cowrovas, is
so corrupt, right, it'sdifficult to hold that spiritual
(24:52):
ideal. So retreat and guidance.
Right a time away can be veryhelpful, and then to re enter
with the spiritual perspective.
So we can make this world abetter place for everyone, and
bring that spiritual thoughtinto all parts of life. I think
(25:14):
this is the kind of practicethat we're all looking for
today, something that that doesreflect the world we live in,
and that we can alleviatesuffering in all in all parts of
our lives.
Nischala Joy Devi (25:33):
It seems a bit confusing sometimes, at
least if you read enough, Iguess this is why they tell you
to stick with one teacher andone scripture, because if you
read enough, it starts tocontradict itself, and you hear,
no, you have to stay. If youwant to be spiritual, you have
(25:54):
to stay at ashram or monasteryor convent or something like
that. And then the other says,This is not the time for that,
for spirituality. This is thetime for material and morals,
but not necessarilyspirituality. And we start
hearing all thesecontradictions. And then the
(26:15):
other thing is, we give a lot ofthe responsibility of our
spiritual development asindividuals, but also as the
world to top spiritual leaders,and they can't do it. They can't
do it for us. First of all, arethey of high moral character?
(26:37):
Well, that's alwaysquestionable, but even if they
are, they can't do it for us.
This is something that I thinkwe hear over and over again in
all the scriptures. You have todo it yourself. You have to
actually put the time in toconnect with those places that
weren't being connected before.
(27:00):
And I, most people, have a verydifficult time with this. I hear
it all the time. You know, I gointo people will say to me, I go
in to meditate. I come in out,and I'm feeling really in my
spiritual realm, and suddenly Ihave to deal with the dog pooped
(27:20):
on the carpet, or I have to dealwith the kids spilled the milk,
or whatever it is, and it takesthem out of it so abruptly that
they start to feel that theydon't want to go back. And I
think this whole idea of notmaking it different than your
everyday life, but letting itcoat your everyday life. Let it
(27:45):
be a part of it. Instead ofscreaming at the kid or rubbing
the dog's nose in it, just takea few deep breaths and maybe go
back into the meditation roomagain and figure out how you're
going to handle this, not likeyou always did, but as this new
form that's coming forward withthe balance of the spiritual and
(28:08):
the material, because thematerial and the spiritual are
really not separate, it was justwe have an illusion that they're
separate, but the spiritual andthe material reflect each other.
And I think this is somethingthat we forget. We forget we
think, Oh, the priest will takecare of it, the rabbi will take
care of it, the Amman will takecare of it, the Dalai Lama will
(28:31):
take care of it. No, they can't.
They can't. It's not. That's nothow it works. They can help you,
they can guide you, but theycan't do it for you, and that's
what we have to remember
Kamala Rose (28:47):
when I come out of meditation. I've taught this for
many years to treat that periodafter meditation as a very
liminal space, right? I love theI love the practice from what's
his name brother David thegratitude monk, who who teaches
(29:11):
so beautifully, as soon as youblink your eyes open, right, be
be surprised and grateful ateverything that your eyes fall
on. I think there's almost an inbetween practice that's needed
there to give the mind time toadjust right to not the, not
the, you know, the the ordinary,mundane that's so known and
(29:34):
right right to see that, thatthat that dog that's walking
across The floor and sniffing atsomething that might mean work
later, right to to come out ofthat space with gratitude. And I
think this is really a place forfor looking again at that union
with the booty, that higher mindthat we're all you know, to
(29:56):
bring this the idea ofinterconnection and gratitude.
Attitude into our world when weopen our eyes to consider the
ways that we're interconnected,right? To connect,
interconnected with the dogs,with the children, with the
plants, with the earth thatsupports us. And really make a
practice, right? That's a verymuch a practice of teaching the
(30:21):
buddhi right, teaching the mindto think from there and
contextualize everything interms of its interconnection to
oneself and oneself as beingdependent on others. Because
this is right. We're getting atsome very important ideas here.
(30:44):
The last part of the shloka saysthat by doing this, the bonds of
karma can be broken. And I thinkthat, I think that by elevating
the mind to the place where it'snot an intellectual concept that
we are all connected. We canteach ourselves to cease acting
(31:08):
out of self interest and act outof a higher principle of what's
best for all of us. And I thinkthis is for me. This is what
this shaloka really speaking tois this is how the bonds of
karma are broken, is we're ableto ascend mentally beyond
(31:29):
personal self interest into asense of selflessness in the
world.
Nischala Joy Devi (31:38):
So I think the other thing is, we have to
realize there's, there's lots ofoptions to every given
situation. So for instance, ifwe come out of meditation and we
see that our dog did somethingin the middle of the rug,
there's ways of looking at andyou say, there must be something
going on. She doesn't usually dothis. Maybe she's not feeling
(32:00):
well. Instead of going to shedid this against me, and now I
have to clean it up. We there'sto me, there's a synapse,
there's a timing that slowsdown. It was interesting that
we're doing a research on thisin Bangalore. I was visiting
there one one year, and theyactually found that when you do
(32:25):
deep meditation, that the motorskills actually slow down. You
walk slower, you speak slower,you eat slower. Everything
changes because you're givingspace in between the thoughts,
which normally we don't do. Wejust we just go, and it's like a
song or a beautiful piece ofmusic. The more space there is,
(32:49):
the slower and more relaxing itis, the less space, the more the
pace is fast. So what meditationhelps us to do is have that gap.
So we can have a little bit morecompassion for the dog in just
or whatever it is, I'm justkeeping on this dog metaphor,
(33:10):
but we can have more compassionfor the dog and realizing maybe
something's wrong. Same thinghappens if someone's rude to you
on the phone, instead of have aquick reaction. You pull back
and you say, Wait a minute.
Maybe they're having a reallybad day. Maybe this is something
that's not good for them. So tome, that's how it all
interweaves. The physicalityslows down when we do spiritual
(33:34):
practice, the material bodyactually slows down. So as we
continue it, we start to seethat everything's changing
around us. And one of the waysthat I've in the past described
this is if you take a plant andyou water it, you have to let it
(33:58):
sit there for a few minutes andlet the water seep down. If you
move it right away, it willspill out. And I think that's
the same with us. When we comeout. Try to have kamu, you were
describing it, have that periodof transition. There's a time of
transition between coming out,and that's where the chanting at
(34:20):
the end or sending prayers tothe world for peace or something
like that, helps us do thattransition. So we don't have
that abrupt reaction. Why do youdo that? We just have the
calming and saying, Okay, thishappened. It doesn't usually
happen. There's a reason for it.
(34:40):
Let me think about that'sbringing the booty back into it.
We're looking at the logicinstead of going with the
emotions. Yeah, I think, I thinkthat's what he's trying to say
here. And I think that's one ofthe most practical and useful
advices that we can get withyoga,
Kamala Rose (34:57):
because it's we're talking about our reactions,
right? Right, the minute tominute, the way we live in the
world. And I'll just be straightup with you. We're talking about
dogs, and I have three of them,and I've cried over a dog poop
on the floor, right? I've lostit first thing in the morning.
And so nobody's perfect. This isreally this is about learning
(35:20):
how to be in the world in a way,as you said, That's
compassionate understanding,like you said, some maybe
something's up. Maybe I didn'twake up early enough to let
everybody out. Maybe it's just,I think it highlights that
we're, not only are, you know,we're all connected, but our
karmas are intertwined, right?
We are dependent on each other.
(35:43):
They are dependent on me to takethem out and walk them and to
provide structure for them, justlike children. You know, we have
as women, especially, we havemany who depend on us. And this
is kind of, this is who we are.
So many of us in our world. Weare the people who so many
depend on. Right? So we, I thinkthis, I think for women, being
(36:08):
able to look beyond oneself is askill that we know how to do,
right? Transferring this intoseeing, seeing the spiritual
practice that it is might be,you know, a step. I hope that is
helpful to our sisters outthere, who do so much to help so
many people. And here, Krishnasays there's a huge virtue to
(36:33):
that, to be able to see beyondoneself and beyond one's own
personal interest,
Nischala Joy Devi (36:46):
and it grows, it develops, it continues. And I
think that's even if we come outand yell, it's a lesson, oops.
Look at this. One moment ago, Iwas peaceful. I was OMO mom. I
was in there in bliss, knowingwho I was, what happened. I
(37:08):
walked out and I lost it. Istarted screaming at the dogs
who I adore. Why did I do that?
Okay, this. I really need towork on this particular aspect
of my life right now. So it's agreat lesson. So next time we go
back in there that's in ourthoughts, I need to make sure
that where I go right now willhelp me when I walk out of this
(37:31):
room. So it's a really adaptedjust constantly, constantly
we're adjusting it,
Kamala Rose (37:42):
yeah, and as you said, learning, learning, as we
go, right? We didn't, we didn'tbreak any rules, right? Do
anything bad, right? It wasn't,uh, you know, didn't, you know,
come to physical violence. Itwas just, you know, it was a
right. And then I, I askedmyself, you know, who are you?
(38:04):
Who do you think you are? Thatnothing bad, you know, nothing
like this would happen. Ifthat's the worst thing that
happens to me today, then Iwould consider this day blessed,
right? If that's the worst thingI had to do, right? So we learn,
and we learn how to to be atpeace in our environments, which
(38:25):
are filled with people and petsand uncomfortable situations and
situations we don't like andagree with, right? We've got to.
And I think it's it we know toothat it's not one size fits all.
I mean, it's not just the samefor everybody we are all
mitigating stressful situations,right? Some that are uniquely
(38:47):
stressful to you, that wouldmake you blow up, lose it,
right? Some that would happen toa good friend and you say,
What's the big deal about that?
Who cares? Right? So this iswhere we're learning to work
with with who we are and makepeace with the present moment,
not expecting it to be anythingother than what it is. And this
(39:07):
is how the bonds of karma can bebroken, how we can release that,
that sticky stickiness to theway things should be, the way I
want things to be, the way Ibelieve them to be, falling out
(39:28):
as right. These are, these arewell, well worn habits in every
in every Yogi's mind and heart,right? And in yoga, we are
learning to examine those we'relearning to get over ourselves
and to to accept the presentmoment exactly as it is, knowing
(39:52):
that it's not for you tocontrol.
Nischala Joy Devi (39:59):
It's not to be. Sure it's for us to bring in
who we really are, and that'sthe only way we're ever going to
feel control on this. Becausethose of us have tried, and
believe me, I have many times,to control situations and that
you just can't, and after awhile, you get frustrated and
(40:20):
throw up your hands and say,Okay, but what about if you
could do that in the beginningand just say, you know, I can't
expect everything to go my way.
Maybe I don't see the bigpicture. Maybe this isn't the
right thing at this point. Butthat alone takes years of
practice, usually, to be able tosee that you can give it lip
service, but to really believeit, it could take a long time,
(40:44):
and I think that we have to becareful to not think of this as
something that people can justtake advantage of us and just
keep saying to us, oh, do this.
Do this. Because, oh, you're aspiritual being. You should be
doing this. We also have toconsider, how is this affecting
(41:06):
us? Who am I? And then we cansee when I go the next day or
that day into the meditationroom, am I still thinking about
that? If I am, then it affectedus more deeply, and we have to
do something about that. So it'sand I I'm laughing, because a
(41:27):
lot of people hear this, andthey'll say, too much work, too
much work. I want to just go outand have fun. I don't want to do
this, and I understand that. Butalso I say to them, this can be
fun. I know it doesn't seem likeit, but it can be, and because
the fun part comes that you cando what you really want to do
(41:50):
without experience theconsequences that you may have
before, because you understandit in a very different way. So
it's all growth in learning, ifwe want to go there, if we want
to do that.
Kamala Rose (42:04):
This is the path of yoga, an embodied accepting
engagement with the world aroundus. Right today, we've we've
spoken about verse 239 you'vebeen given the essence of self
knowledge. Sankhya now hear thepractical wisdom of yoga, buddhi
(42:27):
yoga, through which the bonds ofkarma can be broken, right? This
is, this is where the Gitabegins to develop this new
flower of karma yoga. And Ithink this is all we have time
for today, nishala. We'll haveto, we'll have to pick up on 240
(42:49):
next time. And I look forward tospeaking to you about
Nischala Joy Devi (42:53):
that. That will be fun. It's a fun one
coming up. Don't miss this one.
Kamala Rose (43:00):
Thank you all so much for joining us. Appreciate
all of our listeners and all ofyou who are subscribers to our
podcast. I hope you'll share itwith others, and we'll look
forward to seeing you next time.
Namaste.
Nischala Joy Devi (43:16):
Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (43:20):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nistula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a women's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(43:44):
Namaste. You.
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy Devi and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Unknown (00:42):
Namaste, I'm Kamala rose
Nischala Joy Devi (00:46):
and I'm Nischala Devi. Thank
Kamala Rose (00:48):
you so much for joining us for this episode of a
woman's Gita today, we're goingto be picking up on such an
important verse shloka, we'repicking up where we left off.
And our last podcast discussingnow Krishnas definition of yoga.
(01:09):
Nishila, would you like to startwith reading us our translation
of 239
Nischala Joy Devi (01:15):
you have been given the essence of self
knowledge now here the practicalwisdom of yoga through which
bonds of karma can be broken.
Kamala Rose (01:28):
And I'll read this one in this original Sanskrit,
yesha te Bihi ta Sankey, Buchanu Buddh to ya, ya, Partha,
karma. Bandham prahasyasi,right? So we're working with,
(01:50):
we're working with a couple ofkey words here, and the essence
of self knowledge, which in theBhagavad Gita is called Sankhya.
Many of our yoga students aregoing to be familiar with that
word which is, which isimportant, as, let's say, the
theoretical framework of yogagives us, you know, the
(02:11):
vocabulary and the world view ofyoga. And Krishna says, Now hear
the practical wisdom of yoga.
And here he says, buddhir yoga,to be Mom, should renew, listen
carefully to the practicalinsight of yoga. I think it's
worth noting before we move onso much that this practical
(02:38):
wisdom of yoga that we'retalking about in the Gita is
we're going to be Krishna isgoing to weave together for us a
different definition, I think,than what we're used to, if
we're students of the yoga sutraand of this idea of theoretical
yoga philosophy, which is alsoknown as Sankhya, this karma
(03:01):
yoga that Krishna will bedescribing is really taking what
we've already covered in theGita, right the these main
subjects that have been woventogether through chapter two,
the transcendence of the Atman,the first subject, the higher
(03:23):
self, the spirit, the soul, theabsolute transcendence of the
self. And then right before thisverse, we had a dialog on
Dharma, where Krishna spoke toArjuna about his important role
to play in the world. Now thatwe get to verse 39 we're really
(03:46):
bringing those two threads withus, the thread of the
transcendent Atman and thethread of our role in the world,
our responsibility to the world,right? So when he says, You've
given us, we've been given theessence of self knowledge or
(04:07):
Sankhya, and he's given us atheoretical framework that there
is a transcendent self, andthere is a world of nature, of
the body, the personality, thepsyche, right? That we live
within we are both spirit andnature. Now we're going to hear
how to apply this the practicalwisdom of yoga, through which
(04:34):
the bonds of karma can bebroken. You. So this yoga that
Krishna is speaking about, hesays, here bud, here Yogi to be
Mom, should renew, listen to howto practice this yoga, which he
defines clearly in this verse asa. Yoking oneself to the buddhi,
(04:59):
which is one of the componentsin Santa, right? Buddhi is the
insightful mind. It's thereasoning mind, the intuitive
mind, the wisdom faculty that isable to have a greater
perspective than the ego or thesense of individuality, right?
(05:22):
So by yoking oneself to thispart of the mind, we're able to
get a bigger picture, right?
This is the yoga that'sdescribed here in verse 39
Nischala Joy Devi (05:39):
I think the other thing that it's doing to
to me, like on a mystical level,when I look at it from that
perspective, it's almost like weare from our small self. Once we
realize there's so much more, webegin to put this web out. And
(06:00):
there's a web that spiritualityand the practices make stronger.
And what I hear Krishna sayinghere is you have to go from the
inside and from the outside.
It's almost a simultaneousmovement. So as you move in,
you're also changing the way youaffect and are affected by the
(06:21):
world. And to me, this is very,a very important point, because
most of the time spirituality,or let's call it, religion, is
compartmentalized. So we do iton Sunday or Saturday or Friday,
whatever the holy bookprescribes, but the rest of the
(06:43):
time we're not really thinkingabout it. We're off somewhere
else. And it brings back to methe idea of cultivating the
spirituality that we were taughtas monastics, and one of the
things we were taught. And Iknow this is true also for
Christian monastics, becauseI've spent a lot of time also
(07:04):
with in that milieu that we arereminded constantly of this
connection, of this of who weare, both spiritually and
physically. For instance, we hadprayers for everything. So when
we took a shower, we had aspecific prayer that we said. So
(07:25):
we were taking care of the bodyat the same time, we were taking
care and reminding ourselves ofthe spirit and the essence the
same thing, before we ate afterwe ate, when we were washing the
dishes, every single thing had aconnection to it, not just as a
(07:45):
rote thing for us to memorize,but to remind us constantly that
we we step with two feet, one inthe spiritual world And one in
the physical world. And here, tome, this is what Christian is
really trying to bring togetherand saying, don't just think
(08:06):
it's only when you go andmeditate, or only when you do
this. This is all the time.
Everything that you do becomesspiritualized. Everything that
you do becomes part of not onlyyour dharma, but the way you
live every day in the world. Sothis, to me, is a very, very
(08:29):
important aspect of it for allof us to remember when it says
you have been given the essenceof self knowledge now hear the
practical wisdom of yoga. And tome, what it means is take that,
the essence of self knowledgethat you've been given, and
bring it into the practical ofeveryday life.
Kamala Rose (08:55):
I think the practical of everyday life the
way we live. I think there's,there's so much in this verse
that's so instructive. Thepractical wisdom, I think the
practical wisdom here that I amgleaning is the practical wisdom
that can only be discerned bythe higher mind, right, by a
(09:18):
higher perspective, right? Weknow from sankia those three
components of the mind, buddhi,the highest aspect of the mind,
we could say, the mind thatthinks in terms of we and us and
all right, this is the part ofthe mind that has the capacity
to glimpse or to behold thetranscendent Atman, right? It's
(09:45):
the, it's of the sattvic nature.
It's clear it's transcendent andinclusive. It's an inclusive of
all Exactly, yeah, right. Andthen we have ahamkara, which is
the eye maker, right, denser andmade of. Of personality and
individuality, the sense that Iexist separately than the other
things around me and the otherpeople around me, right? And the
(10:08):
densest yet is Manas, which wecan call the conscious mind, the
nervous system, the workings andcoordinator of the five senses,
right? So this verse really isspeaking to the inner work,
right? What we're doinginternally in karma yoga, and
(10:29):
that is the effort throughmeditation, to lift above what
is solely an individual and comeinto a greater sense of
belonging to a whole, right? Apractical wisdom, as you say,
where we're all connected, wherewe are all dependent on each
(10:50):
other. I think being able tolook at situations from this
point of view, right? We're ableto look more at what's good for
all of us? Yeah, what's theright thing to do for all of us,
not just for me, not just my ownpersonal self interest and
maintaining my own personalkarma, right? We can look beyond
(11:15):
that into a larger sense, wherewe are all connected and we are
all one, this practical internalwork, I think, is what is being
defined here, as Buddha yoga, aninternal union, or yoking. To
that perspective,
Nischala Joy Devi (11:41):
I agree with exactly what you're saying. I
think that. I think this iswhat's so unusual about yoga,
and why it's why people don'tunderstand it, because there's
nothing really like it in mosttraditions, the fact that you
are giving given a set ofpractices that lead you to a
(12:06):
certain point. It's not justprayer, it's not just
meditation. We're we're lookingat every all the three that
you've talked about, the booty.
There's practices for that,there's practices for the Aham
car. There's practices for themodes. Everything that we have
has, there's a practice to allowit to purify, and when it
(12:27):
purifies, then we can use it inits totality. There's none of
the the essential dichotomiesthere. And I guess I think
particularly when we're talkingabout the sense of, I the
ahamkara, the I think a lot ofpeople misunderstand it. And I
(12:50):
remember at one point I wassomewhere, and there was a
surgeon who was a neurologicalsurgeon, and he went in, he
started talking about the bootyand or the hunger, sorry. And he
said, you just have to go in andannihilate it, get rid of it
completely. And I remember beingthere, just being shocked and
(13:12):
saying something like that. Andobviously, from a surgeon's
point of view, that's what youdo, but from a Yogi's point of
view, it's a purification. Soyou're the personality that
comes out of that is not takenaway. One of the things that I
think people misunderstand iseven if you become realized, you
(13:32):
don't lose your personality.
Your personality is still there.
It's just now you have a senseof knowing that you didn't have
before. So the personality isit's refined, but we still
maintain it. Otherwise we'd allbe walking around like robots,
(13:53):
all the saints would all be thesame. And if you've ever read
about them, you know they're alldifferent, and they're all a
little bit according to ourvalues in this plane of
consciousness, a little bitnuts, because they just that's
just who they are. They just gooff a little bit. Ramakrishna
(14:13):
used to dress in all kinds ofclothes and sneak into the
women's baths and all kinds ofthings, because he wanted to
know what does a woman feellike, so he would do all these
things. So I think that when weget back to this, we have to
understand that it's apurification of the senses. It's
not a destruction of the senses.
(14:37):
It's not even an inhibition ofthe senses, but it's that
purification that then when welook at the sunset, it's a very
different sunset than we lookedat before.
Kamala Rose (14:49):
I think that's very much worth emphasizing,
especially in terms of this. Youknow, the beginning of this
verse speaking about Sankhya,which is. An old one of the six
darshanas of Indian philosophy,very old. Probably dates prior
to but copula wrote the Sankhyakaraka around 500 before the
(15:15):
Common Era, right? So it's,we're looking at something
that's very old. It's beeninterpreted by so many men over
so many 1000s of years, and it'salmost like we have a ranking
system like the Buddhist betterthan the ahamkara, that's just
better than the Manas, which isbetter than the senses. In fact,
(15:38):
the Katha Upanishad, where thatwe spoke of earlier with the
chariot metaphor, just flat out,says the booty is better than
the ahamkara is better than theManas. And right as Westerners,
we hear this in a in such a wayof ranking, and we think right
as as young spiritual aspirants,we can internalize that in a in
(16:01):
a way that can be not sohelpful, where it turns into
annihilating the ego, killingthe ego, eliminating the ego,
right? And for people who havebeen on the path for so many
years, I think it's worthdebunking this myth that there's
any way to kill the ego or toeliminate this. Or can we become
(16:23):
selfless? Yes, we can becomeselfless in our actions, but
losing the personality and theperson who you are is certainly
not what this means, right?
Really just means rising aboveand being not subtracting from
but adding to, right? We'readding everyone to our point of
(16:46):
view, instead of simply onlymyself, right? We're adding all
people into, really the motivefor our actions and we're
taking, we're taking that widerweb point of view, again, to to
remember these threads thatKrishna has been weaving for us,
(17:11):
the transcendence of the Atman,that transcendent Atman in all
beings, yes, and theresponsibility to act in the
world in a way that is authenticand and in line with our nature,
right? So I think you saidearlier, nishilla, so
(17:36):
accurately, that we're lookingat more of a blending. I think
we have to look at befriendingthe ahamkara, right, including
the ahamkara, which is notalways easy, right? Yes, it's
not always easy to get oneselfon board with a, with a you
know, especially when you wantsomething, right? You really
(17:58):
want it. You want it to work outthat way. You're very pushing
hard for that to happen, right?
To look up and think, but what'sbest for everyone? What's best
for what's best in the timing,right? What's best for all of
the multiple strands woventogether in time? It might be a
(18:20):
different answer than what youwant, and this is really where
we are acting out of a sense ofa greater good and a greater a
greater sense of identity andbelonging to the world.
Nischala Joy Devi (18:38):
I think that's so important to
understand what you just said,Because I two things can happen
simultaneously. And I think thisis we've come we're sort of
going to the physical world. Thetwo two objects can occupy the
(18:58):
same place, the same space atthe same time. That's not true
in the spiritual world. They canso we can be working with and
recognizing our inner self atthe same time recognizing how
we're acting in the world,whether to unite or to separate,
(19:18):
because it has to be done at thesame time. And I think this is
what happens, is we spend somany years in the material. We
go to school, we go to college,we go to university, we go to
specialty schools, and wehaven't thought about our
spirit. And then all of a suddensomething happens, and we say,
oh, I should probably startthinking about who I am, other
(19:42):
than being doctor, nurse,garbage collector, plumber,
whatever I am, we can't drop thematerial, although some people
do, they'll go into a monasteryfor a period of time. But those
are those days are pretty muchgone. Most people aren't doing
that. Anymore. So what we'redoing then is we're picking up
(20:03):
the spiritual after we have,well, developed the material,
but not giving as much energy tothe spiritual, because we just
don't have the time anymore.
We've given so much of it so andthen we say, well, I don't
really experience and not reallyexperience the aspect of
spirituality, because we haven'tstrengthened it enough. We
(20:24):
haven't made it as familiar asthe physical is. And I think
that's one of the things ofyoga, is to slowly draw us in.
We begin with the physical, andthen we slowly come in to the
place where you're comfortable,not only even more than
comfortable, you're yearning forthat quiet stillness within. And
(20:47):
you know at that point, when youstart yearning for that, that
the material has not encroachedin the spiritual. You know that
it has stayed where it belonged,and you can visit it anytime you
want, and now bring thespiritual into it. And I to me,
that's really the goal of livingin the world as a spiritual and
(21:10):
physical being at the same time.
And yoga seems to have the waysto do that.
Kamala Rose (21:18):
And this is why I think retreats are important,
yep, that we can have aprolonged period of time to
focus on meditation, leave theworld, leave your job behind,
leave thing, leave the the worldof everyday life behind for a
period of time, even to spendsome time in an ashram, right?
It gives a great perspective andteaches you the skills, right?
(21:43):
But so we're very clear here inthe Bhagavad Gita, the purpose
of this yoga, this buddhi yogathat Krishna is teaching, is to
live it in the world. Is tobring it into our sense of civic
responsibility and the role, theunique role that each of us has
to play in the world,
Nischala Joy Devi (22:04):
and the spiritual world has really
discouraged us up until veryrecently, even though it's
written 1000s of years ago,you're really discouraged from
bringing the spirit back in.
You're encouraged to stay inthose ashrams, to stay in those
monotonic convent to keep thatflow go. Flow going. I remember,
(22:25):
how many times have I told, beentold you can't have a foot in
two different boats, because ifyou do when they start to move
apart, you can guess whathappens. And I was told this
over and over and over again,but yet, in the world, you have
to live like that. If you don'tlive like that, you've lost
Kamala Rose (22:53):
and this is the great innovation of the Bhagavad
Gita, is bringing together thatworldly life with the inner
sense of monasticism. Icompletely agree with you that
we this should be emphasized atthe beginning of one's, you
know, one's experience in anashram is, you know, consider
this a, you know, a very semipermanent situation, right? And
(23:21):
a place where you can learn somethings that will teach you how
to find that authentic nature ofyourself so that you can live
your life. You can play thatpart. I completely agree that
this would be a greatcontribution on behalf of the
ashrams of the world, to tellpeople, to instruct them in the
(23:43):
ways of this Gita, that youryour role now is to help the
world to become a better place.
You know, this was, this was bigfor me that, you know, I saw
that I had helped the people inthe ashram as much as I could.
And these insights are reallyfor they're for the world.
They're to make the world a morespiritual place. And I think
(24:07):
that one of the reasons that ourwarriors in the battle of
kurushetra have gotten into thismess in the first place is so
much of that spiritualengagement and that spiritual
identity has been forgotten,right? It's been corrupted by
the the wants and the desires ofthe world, right, represented by
(24:30):
the cowrovas. Right, even inthis situation as the Pandavas
are looking to do the rightthing, it's look how difficult
it is for them to fight, to dothe right thing, when the when
the society, which I think isrepresented by the cowrovas, is
so corrupt, right, it'sdifficult to hold that spiritual
(24:52):
ideal. So retreat and guidance.
Right a time away can be veryhelpful, and then to re enter
with the spiritual perspective.
So we can make this world abetter place for everyone, and
bring that spiritual thoughtinto all parts of life. I think
(25:14):
this is the kind of practicethat we're all looking for
today, something that that doesreflect the world we live in,
and that we can alleviatesuffering in all in all parts of
our lives.
Nischala Joy Devi (25:33):
It seems a bit confusing sometimes, at
least if you read enough, Iguess this is why they tell you
to stick with one teacher andone scripture, because if you
read enough, it starts tocontradict itself, and you hear,
no, you have to stay. If youwant to be spiritual, you have
(25:54):
to stay at ashram or monasteryor convent or something like
that. And then the other says,This is not the time for that,
for spirituality. This is thetime for material and morals,
but not necessarilyspirituality. And we start
hearing all thesecontradictions. And then the
(26:15):
other thing is, we give a lot ofthe responsibility of our
spiritual development asindividuals, but also as the
world to top spiritual leaders,and they can't do it. They can't
do it for us. First of all, arethey of high moral character?
(26:37):
Well, that's alwaysquestionable, but even if they
are, they can't do it for us.
This is something that I thinkwe hear over and over again in
all the scriptures. You have todo it yourself. You have to
actually put the time in toconnect with those places that
weren't being connected before.
(27:00):
And I, most people, have a verydifficult time with this. I hear
it all the time. You know, I gointo people will say to me, I go
in to meditate. I come in out,and I'm feeling really in my
spiritual realm, and suddenly Ihave to deal with the dog pooped
(27:20):
on the carpet, or I have to dealwith the kids spilled the milk,
or whatever it is, and it takesthem out of it so abruptly that
they start to feel that theydon't want to go back. And I
think this whole idea of notmaking it different than your
everyday life, but letting itcoat your everyday life. Let it
(27:45):
be a part of it. Instead ofscreaming at the kid or rubbing
the dog's nose in it, just takea few deep breaths and maybe go
back into the meditation roomagain and figure out how you're
going to handle this, not likeyou always did, but as this new
form that's coming forward withthe balance of the spiritual and
(28:08):
the material, because thematerial and the spiritual are
really not separate, it was justwe have an illusion that they're
separate, but the spiritual andthe material reflect each other.
And I think this is somethingthat we forget. We forget we
think, Oh, the priest will takecare of it, the rabbi will take
care of it, the Amman will takecare of it, the Dalai Lama will
(28:31):
take care of it. No, they can't.
They can't. It's not. That's nothow it works. They can help you,
they can guide you, but theycan't do it for you, and that's
what we have to remember
Kamala Rose (28:47):
when I come out of meditation. I've taught this for
many years to treat that periodafter meditation as a very
liminal space, right? I love theI love the practice from what's
his name brother David thegratitude monk, who who teaches
(29:11):
so beautifully, as soon as youblink your eyes open, right, be
be surprised and grateful ateverything that your eyes fall
on. I think there's almost an inbetween practice that's needed
there to give the mind time toadjust right to not the, not
the, you know, the the ordinary,mundane that's so known and
(29:34):
right right to see that, thatthat that dog that's walking
across The floor and sniffing atsomething that might mean work
later, right to to come out ofthat space with gratitude. And I
think this is really a place forfor looking again at that union
with the booty, that higher mindthat we're all you know, to
(29:56):
bring this the idea ofinterconnection and gratitude.
Attitude into our world when weopen our eyes to consider the
ways that we're interconnected,right? To connect,
interconnected with the dogs,with the children, with the
plants, with the earth thatsupports us. And really make a
practice, right? That's a verymuch a practice of teaching the
(30:21):
buddhi right, teaching the mindto think from there and
contextualize everything interms of its interconnection to
oneself and oneself as beingdependent on others. Because
this is right. We're getting atsome very important ideas here.
(30:44):
The last part of the shloka saysthat by doing this, the bonds of
karma can be broken. And I thinkthat, I think that by elevating
the mind to the place where it'snot an intellectual concept that
we are all connected. We canteach ourselves to cease acting
(31:08):
out of self interest and act outof a higher principle of what's
best for all of us. And I thinkthis is for me. This is what
this shaloka really speaking tois this is how the bonds of
karma are broken, is we're ableto ascend mentally beyond
(31:29):
personal self interest into asense of selflessness in the
world.
Nischala Joy Devi (31:38):
So I think the other thing is, we have to
realize there's, there's lots ofoptions to every given
situation. So for instance, ifwe come out of meditation and we
see that our dog did somethingin the middle of the rug,
there's ways of looking at andyou say, there must be something
going on. She doesn't usually dothis. Maybe she's not feeling
(32:00):
well. Instead of going to shedid this against me, and now I
have to clean it up. We there'sto me, there's a synapse,
there's a timing that slowsdown. It was interesting that
we're doing a research on thisin Bangalore. I was visiting
there one one year, and theyactually found that when you do
(32:25):
deep meditation, that the motorskills actually slow down. You
walk slower, you speak slower,you eat slower. Everything
changes because you're givingspace in between the thoughts,
which normally we don't do. Wejust we just go, and it's like a
song or a beautiful piece ofmusic. The more space there is,
(32:49):
the slower and more relaxing itis, the less space, the more the
pace is fast. So what meditationhelps us to do is have that gap.
So we can have a little bit morecompassion for the dog in just
or whatever it is, I'm justkeeping on this dog metaphor,
(33:10):
but we can have more compassionfor the dog and realizing maybe
something's wrong. Same thinghappens if someone's rude to you
on the phone, instead of have aquick reaction. You pull back
and you say, Wait a minute.
Maybe they're having a reallybad day. Maybe this is something
that's not good for them. So tome, that's how it all
interweaves. The physicalityslows down when we do spiritual
(33:34):
practice, the material bodyactually slows down. So as we
continue it, we start to seethat everything's changing
around us. And one of the waysthat I've in the past described
this is if you take a plant andyou water it, you have to let it
(33:58):
sit there for a few minutes andlet the water seep down. If you
move it right away, it willspill out. And I think that's
the same with us. When we comeout. Try to have kamu, you were
describing it, have that periodof transition. There's a time of
transition between coming out,and that's where the chanting at
(34:20):
the end or sending prayers tothe world for peace or something
like that, helps us do thattransition. So we don't have
that abrupt reaction. Why do youdo that? We just have the
calming and saying, Okay, thishappened. It doesn't usually
happen. There's a reason for it.
(34:40):
Let me think about that'sbringing the booty back into it.
We're looking at the logicinstead of going with the
emotions. Yeah, I think, I thinkthat's what he's trying to say
here. And I think that's one ofthe most practical and useful
advices that we can get withyoga,
Kamala Rose (34:57):
because it's we're talking about our reactions,
right? Right, the minute tominute, the way we live in the
world. And I'll just be straightup with you. We're talking about
dogs, and I have three of them,and I've cried over a dog poop
on the floor, right? I've lostit first thing in the morning.
And so nobody's perfect. This isreally this is about learning
(35:20):
how to be in the world in a way,as you said, That's
compassionate understanding,like you said, some maybe
something's up. Maybe I didn'twake up early enough to let
everybody out. Maybe it's just,I think it highlights that
we're, not only are, you know,we're all connected, but our
karmas are intertwined, right?
We are dependent on each other.
(35:43):
They are dependent on me to takethem out and walk them and to
provide structure for them, justlike children. You know, we have
as women, especially, we havemany who depend on us. And this
is kind of, this is who we are.
So many of us in our world. Weare the people who so many
depend on. Right? So we, I thinkthis, I think for women, being
(36:08):
able to look beyond oneself is askill that we know how to do,
right? Transferring this intoseeing, seeing the spiritual
practice that it is might be,you know, a step. I hope that is
helpful to our sisters outthere, who do so much to help so
many people. And here, Krishnasays there's a huge virtue to
(36:33):
that, to be able to see beyondoneself and beyond one's own
personal interest,
Nischala Joy Devi (36:46):
and it grows, it develops, it continues. And I
think that's even if we come outand yell, it's a lesson, oops.
Look at this. One moment ago, Iwas peaceful. I was OMO mom. I
was in there in bliss, knowingwho I was, what happened. I
(37:08):
walked out and I lost it. Istarted screaming at the dogs
who I adore. Why did I do that?
Okay, this. I really need towork on this particular aspect
of my life right now. So it's agreat lesson. So next time we go
back in there that's in ourthoughts, I need to make sure
that where I go right now willhelp me when I walk out of this
(37:31):
room. So it's a really adaptedjust constantly, constantly
we're adjusting it,
Kamala Rose (37:42):
yeah, and as you said, learning, learning, as we
go, right? We didn't, we didn'tbreak any rules, right? Do
anything bad, right? It wasn't,uh, you know, didn't, you know,
come to physical violence. Itwas just, you know, it was a
right. And then I, I askedmyself, you know, who are you?
(38:04):
Who do you think you are? Thatnothing bad, you know, nothing
like this would happen. Ifthat's the worst thing that
happens to me today, then Iwould consider this day blessed,
right? If that's the worst thingI had to do, right? So we learn,
and we learn how to to be atpeace in our environments, which
(38:25):
are filled with people and petsand uncomfortable situations and
situations we don't like andagree with, right? We've got to.
And I think it's it we know toothat it's not one size fits all.
I mean, it's not just the samefor everybody we are all
mitigating stressful situations,right? Some that are uniquely
(38:47):
stressful to you, that wouldmake you blow up, lose it,
right? Some that would happen toa good friend and you say,
What's the big deal about that?
Who cares? Right? So this iswhere we're learning to work
with with who we are and makepeace with the present moment,
not expecting it to be anythingother than what it is. And this
(39:07):
is how the bonds of karma can bebroken, how we can release that,
that sticky stickiness to theway things should be, the way I
want things to be, the way Ibelieve them to be, falling out
(39:28):
as right. These are, these arewell, well worn habits in every
in every Yogi's mind and heart,right? And in yoga, we are
learning to examine those we'relearning to get over ourselves
and to to accept the presentmoment exactly as it is, knowing
(39:52):
that it's not for you tocontrol.
Nischala Joy Devi (39:59):
It's not to be. Sure it's for us to bring in
who we really are, and that'sthe only way we're ever going to
feel control on this. Becausethose of us have tried, and
believe me, I have many times,to control situations and that
you just can't, and after awhile, you get frustrated and
(40:20):
throw up your hands and say,Okay, but what about if you
could do that in the beginningand just say, you know, I can't
expect everything to go my way.
Maybe I don't see the bigpicture. Maybe this isn't the
right thing at this point. Butthat alone takes years of
practice, usually, to be able tosee that you can give it lip
service, but to really believeit, it could take a long time,
(40:44):
and I think that we have to becareful to not think of this as
something that people can justtake advantage of us and just
keep saying to us, oh, do this.
Do this. Because, oh, you're aspiritual being. You should be
doing this. We also have toconsider, how is this affecting
(41:06):
us? Who am I? And then we cansee when I go the next day or
that day into the meditationroom, am I still thinking about
that? If I am, then it affectedus more deeply, and we have to
do something about that. So it'sand I I'm laughing, because a
(41:27):
lot of people hear this, andthey'll say, too much work, too
much work. I want to just go outand have fun. I don't want to do
this, and I understand that. Butalso I say to them, this can be
fun. I know it doesn't seem likeit, but it can be, and because
the fun part comes that you cando what you really want to do
(41:50):
without experience theconsequences that you may have
before, because you understandit in a very different way. So
it's all growth in learning, ifwe want to go there, if we want
to do that.
Kamala Rose (42:04):
This is the path of yoga, an embodied accepting
engagement with the world aroundus. Right today, we've we've
spoken about verse 239 you'vebeen given the essence of self
knowledge. Sankhya now hear thepractical wisdom of yoga, buddhi
(42:27):
yoga, through which the bonds ofkarma can be broken, right? This
is, this is where the Gitabegins to develop this new
flower of karma yoga. And Ithink this is all we have time
for today, nishala. We'll haveto, we'll have to pick up on 240
(42:49):
next time. And I look forward tospeaking to you about
Nischala Joy Devi (42:53):
that. That will be fun. It's a fun one
coming up. Don't miss this one.
Kamala Rose (43:00):
Thank you all so much for joining us. Appreciate
all of our listeners and all ofyou who are subscribers to our
podcast. I hope you'll share itwith others, and we'll look
forward to seeing you next time.
Namaste.
Nischala Joy Devi (43:16):
Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (43:20):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nistula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a women's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(43:44):
Namaste. You.
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