November 17, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode of A Woman's Gita, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose dive into the opening verses of Chapter 2 of the Bhagavad Gita. As the dialogue between the warrior Arjuna and his charioteer Krishna unfolds, we witness Arjuna's profound crisis of conscience. Overwhelmed by despair and confusion, Arjuna expresses his unwillingness to fight against his own kinsmen.
The hosts explore how Krishna's initial harsh words of shaming and verbal beration towards Arjuna may not resonate with modern spiritual seekers. Instead, Nischala and Kamala reframe Krishna's teachings through a lens of compassion, seeking to understand Arjuna's deep-seated conflict between his duty as a warrior and his heart's aversion to violence.
The discussion also touches on the crucial role of the teacher, or guru, in the spiritual journey. The hosts share insights on discernment - what qualities to look for in a qualified teacher, and the importance of aligning one's state of mind and readiness with the guidance being offered.
Throughout the episode, listeners are invited to contemplate the universal themes of dharma, the gunas, and the complexities of the human experience as revealed in this timeless yogic text.
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Unknown (00:02):
Namaste. Welcome to A Woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
Women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
Nischala Joy Devi and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Namaste, friends.
Welcome to a woman's Gita.
Bhagavad. Gita, by and forWestern women. I'm Kamala rose
and I'm Nischala Joy Devi. Thankyou so much for joining us
on our last podcast. We left offat the end of chapter one with
(01:02):
arjunas declaration that I willnot fight, we discuss the state
of mind, the state of being thatArjuna is in called vashata, or
despondency, gloom, sorrow ordespair. Today, as we begin
Chapter Two, we pick up witharjunas feeling of not knowing
(01:27):
what is the right thing to do,and we are introduced to the
very first teachings of Krishnain chapter two, which is called
Sankhya yoga, we're presentedwith an overview of the entire
Bhagavad Gita. In chapter two,Krishna lays out many of the
(01:51):
main ideas that he'll becovering throughout the Gita.
And today we're going to takejust the very first part of
this. You the first verse inchapter two is spoken by
Sanjaya, our narrator, who says,who gives us the picture? Are
(02:13):
overwhelmed by despair at thechoice before him. Arjunas eyes
were filled with tears.
Nischala Joy Devi (02:21):
So let's go back to what we talked about at
the end of chapter one,when we saw that this was, in
fact, something that was verydeep for Arjuna, and he was
having what we were calling it asympathetic nervous system
reaction here, it seems thatthat is calming down, and what
(02:43):
is coming now is thisoverwhelming despair, this
hopelessness, this feeling of,what do I do next? I have these
horrible choices before me.
Which one do I choose? I justwanted to go back for a moment
and explain some of the changesthat we've done, especially here
(03:06):
in the beginning of chapter two,and it flows through the rest of
the Gita. Also, there's a lot ofname calling here. There's a lot
of shaming dejection, and wereally didn't feel that this was
life affirming or something thatis useful for a spiritual
(03:29):
aspirant. I think many of ushave learned that that old
saying Sticks and stones maybreak my bones, but names will
never hurt me is not trueanymore. We find that. So what
we're seeing here is we haveinstead decided to bring out the
(03:50):
compassionate side of Krishna tospur him on, a little more
compassion, a little moreunderstanding of the situation
that Arjuna is in as we begin tolisten to the teachings of Sri
Krishna.
Kamala Rose (04:09):
Krishna speaks in verse two, and the Sanskrit is
very famous. This opening verseof Krishna is teaching claibia
mass magama, Partha Na, toThea the Heart. Do not be weak
(04:34):
hearted. He says, and I think weI think Nischala and I agree
that for modern spiritualseeker, it really is a matter of
the heart that we're addressinghere. And as she said, name
calling really does not helpfor.
(04:59):
for. Although it's meant to spurhim on and, you know, to kind of
get him up and moving, it'sreally inappropriate for the
world we live in today.
Nischala Joy Devi (05:11):
The word for diet, to me is not just heart,
but it actually means thespiritual heart. There's a part
of that, I don't think whenthey're referring to it, they're
referring to the physical pump.
And I think that's what's soextraordinary about the heart,
because it's so many differentlevels. No other organ in our
body has these different levels.
(05:35):
We have the basic level that'sthe pump, that it does an
amazing job, by the way, amazingjob. It starts just shortly
after conception, and itcontinues to go until somewhere
near our last breath. It's anamazing organ that you know has
a spiritual component because ofthe way it functions. So the
(05:58):
physical heart pumps, and thenwe have the emotional heart, and
that's the one that feels, thathas the the the emotions in it,
the fear, the caring, the theunderstanding, all of those
things that the heart holds.
When you you see someonehurting, you feel pain for them,
(06:19):
etc. And then to me, the Fridais the next and the final level.
This is the spiritual heart.
This is the heart that holdscompassion. This is the heart
that understands we are all one.
So to me, this is very, verysignificant to hear that this is
(06:41):
the way they're describing. Itnot the function of the pump,
but the function of the heartthat beats the same beat and the
same rhythm as all other heartsin the universe. So this is a
very poignant part that we'rebeginning to move into this idea
(07:01):
of Gita and uncovering theknowledge of the self. Even
though this whole war is goingon, there's a whole other part
that's going on that reallybrings us to that spiritual
forefront, and then it's up tous, do we want to move forward
(07:24):
or not?
Kamala Rose (07:30):
Our translation?
Where does this fear andhopelessness come from? This is
Krishna speaking. You've strayedso far from your path that paves
the way to heaven. This is notthe time to give in to weakness,
right? So we're looking at theduty, the responsibility, that
(07:52):
Arjuna feels incapable ofcompleting. Right? He feels at
odds with in a crisis ofconscience with his very duty on
the battlefield. And as Nischalawas describing, we're really
talking about something deeperthan a physical just a merely
physical response. For Arjuna,this sense of duty is a
(08:17):
spiritual duty. The sense ofparticipation is a spiritual
participation, something ofbelonging, not only to society,
but a belonging to the universeand things making sense for him,
as far as his his given path. Itwasn't a chosen path, but a
(08:39):
given path. He feels thateverything that he's known
previously has failed him.
We're looking at the dharma of akshetra. Kshetra is our
warriors, police,administrators, rulers, and
(08:59):
they're expected to protect theland, protect the people, and
first and foremost, to upholdpeace and only when no other
solution is available, only thento fight. We have a big contrast
with the other group of cousinswho are not really following the
(09:24):
ethical code laid out forkshetra the kshetra class.
They're fighting because theywant to fight. They're fighting
because they are predominated byaggression. They want to have
more they it's personal forthem, and we have a really great
contrast with the cow, with thePandavas, who are not motivated
(09:47):
by having more, and are reallywrestling with their ethics in
this situation. Thus the theweakness of heart, the lack of
resolve. Yeah.
Nischala Joy Devi (10:02):
So when he says, this does not become this
behavior does not become awarrior of your status, arise
with a brave heart, do yourduty. It's specifically tied to
what Kamala was just sayingabout this warrior, this idea,
(10:25):
this but I guess my questionwould be, are the karavas
actually in Dharma, if they areusing this kshatra Dharma for
evil, isn't that is, isn't thatagainst the code of what they're
(10:47):
supposed to be doing?
Kamala Rose (10:49):
Yes, it absolutely is. And this, I think, is where
we get into that larger story ofthe Mahabharata, that these are
not just regular men, these aremen who have been corrupted by a
dark force, and so their theirpresence in the world as kshetra
(11:11):
are, is kind of offensive to thenorm, right? The the Pandavas
really are fighting a goodversus evil battle and trying to
stay the good guys, trying tomaintain that. The this, this
next verse, which is actuallymore of the what the Sanskrit is
(11:32):
that this behavior does notbecome a warrior of your status.
Krishna says, the the the factthat he's given up. He says,
arise, have a brave heart,right? Come with a brave heart
and do your duty. I think, formodern readers of the Gita, this
(11:52):
is, I hope, a good key tounderstanding why this is
happening and that we don't,especially as women, we don't
have to, we don't have to takethis all the way to hard, in a
way, it's not our duty to bewarriors and to police the
people in the land. That's notwho we are.
(12:16):
We're women, and they're womenare not part of the kshetra
Dharma doesn't really apply tous, but we do. I know you'll
agree, Nischala, we do have somany times when we have to say
to ourselves and to each other,arise. Come on with a brave
heart, do your duty.
Nischala Joy Devi (12:39):
Do your duty, but how you do your duty? Just
looking at something we'vewritten already for this,
Krishna berates Arjuna for beingcowardly, and is shamefully
trying to poke at his pride,trying to be a cheerleader to
Arjuna, but not in the way ofthe feminine. He's shaming him,
(13:00):
causing him to shrink more intohimself and bring on self pity.
So I think that we have tounderstand and maybe there's a
Dharma of women. Maybe there's awhole other way that women,
maybe all these casts, all theseseparate but is there a Dharma
(13:23):
that says about women that wehave our own creed that was
taken at birth without us evenknowing it, that this is
something that we are here toprotect and To nurture, not to
destroy so when even destroyingwith words doesn't have to be
(13:45):
necessarily with arrows or gunsor bombs, we can destroy
someone. We can take theirhappiness away just by saying
something to them that's that'snot kind. Again, we get back to
the simplicity of kindness, justsomething to be able to move
forward from Think of somethingnice about that person. You
(14:09):
know, it just doesn't make senseto berate someone and to push
them into to go to them, becausewhat you're doing is you're
bringing out a side of them thatthey don't even like there's not
even a comfort in it. So you'reallowing them to do that. And
then he goes into 1224, beforeme are teachers fit to be
(14:31):
worshiped. How can I shootarrows at those whom I venerate?
I'm not I. I understand that.
You're told your whole life,respect your elders, respect the
people who are your relatives,and all of a sudden, now fight
them, shoot them, kill them. Sothe confusion is just
(14:54):
overwhelming to him as it wouldbe, I think. To all of us, and
he says it would be better,indeed, to live on alms in the
world rather than to slay theseesteemed teachers. If I kill
them for worldly gain, all myearthly pleasure will be stained
with their blood. See, he'stalking now about them, but how
(15:20):
was he feel? How can he get upevery single morning and face
the day knowing that he's donethis? See, I think this, what
they're not looking at is longterm consequences. They're
looking at the immediate. And Ithink as women, we have no
(15:41):
choice but to look at somethingin the future. If we're even
doing something simple, likegoing to the park with our
children, right? It's not just,Oh, come on, let's go. And you
could jump in the car and go.
No, you have to plan on snacks.
You have to plan on drinks. Ifthey're little, you have to plan
(16:02):
on diaper or clothes chain. Youknow, you see some of these
mothers going to the park, theylook like Pack Mules because
there's so much that they haveto bring in preparation. They're
anticipating. And what I hearhere is there's no anticipation.
They're not seeing what happensat the end, when there's these
(16:22):
bloody bodies laying there, andyou have to go back and say to
the wives and the children andthe mothers and fathers, these
people are gone. For what? Forwhat? You can't replace that. So
this is what I'm experiencingwhen I read the first part of
(16:44):
this, and then he goes on and hebecomes a little bit Meeker.
See, there's a meekness thathappens because he's so confused
he doesn't know what to do, andhe's overwhelmed. I'm confused,
and don't know which way wouldbe better, that we should
conquer them or they shouldconquer us after slaying our
(17:06):
kin. What would we Why would wewish to live right? This is
exactly what I'm saying. You getup every morning. It never
leaves you. And I think on asmaller scale, many of us have
done something, maybe we saidsomething carelessly to someone
(17:28):
and hurt their feelings. Right?
This happens, and then what youwake up in the middle of the
night. Why did I say that toher? I saw her face. I saw the
way she looked. Why did I dothat? So if something that small
would stay with us, imagineslaughtering hundreds and
(17:51):
hundreds of people.
Kamala Rose (17:54):
And truly, for Arjuna, this is an incredible
conflict with what he knows tobe the right thing to do, that
you just don't kill family.
It's, it has, it has made it allnot work any longer. And you're
absolutely you brought up somany great points. Nishchala on
the consequences of this. Youknow, we're here with Arjuna on
(18:19):
the battlefield looking at hisgrandfather and at his teacher,
Drona. These two will have to bekilled in order for the war to
be over. And in fact, we knowfrom the Mahabharata that it's
not until Bhishma, thegrandfather of both the cowrivas
and the Pandavas until he dies,that the war is declared over,
(18:43):
and that lasts a long time. Hetakes this he takes his time in
passing. So this idea, I'mconfused and do not know which
would be better, that we shouldconquer them or that they would
conquer us. Which one is betterafter slaying our kin? Would we
(19:03):
wish to live after that? TheMahabharata makes, makes it very
clear that the Pandavas wrestledwith this for the rest of their
lives. Yeah, stayed with themlike, like you said. You said
before, it's like a posttraumatic stress, yeah, that
they'll carry with them for therest of their lives. Never
(19:27):
really certain whether it wasrighteous, yes,
Nischala Joy Devi (19:34):
exactly. If there is this even such a thing
as a righteous war, if that'seven a concept, you know, you
said something very interestingthat kind of stuck in my brain
for a moment, when you said, hethey can't kill their their
family. And so what I'mwondering we're at the beginning
(19:57):
of the Gita, when we get to theend, and. Do they start to see
everyone as their family? That'sto me, see that's, that's what
yoga is to me. Or one of thethings that it is that you begin
by saying, Oh yes, this is myblood relative. This is my blood
relative. And then you start torealize, as you go out, that who
(20:20):
isn't your relative, who isn'tyour your kith and kin,
everybody, the whole world,becomes that. So what? And I
really believe that Arjun isfeeling that on a certain level,
and maybe he has a difficultyexpressing it, but he's his
(20:41):
fear. And we know that that fearsyndrome too. It grabs us by the
neck sometimes, and we justcan't even speak. Our words
won't come out. We stutter.
We're so scared, and I reallyfeel that that's what's going on
with him, and what that does itclouds the mind. The mind can't
be clearer when that somethinglike that happens, my very being
(21:03):
is overwhelmed with sorrow andis confused about what is the
right thing to do, which is thebetter choice? I beg you. Will
you be my teacher? He's he'slaying down at the master's
feet. He's saying, I don't know,I surrender. Tell me, what do I
(21:24):
do?
Kamala Rose (21:31):
This verse is packed with meaning. We're on
two seven. My very being isoverwhelmed with sorrow and is
confused about what is the rightthing to do, this idea of my
very being, another beautiful,technical Sanskrit term called
(21:53):
swabhava. Arjuna says Myswabhava is overwhelmed, right?
And swabhava means one'sessential nature. So he's saying
at the very core of my being,the very core of who I am, and
part of who he is, is as awarrior who upholds this ethical
(22:17):
code, right? So he's saying it'snot working with who I know
myself to be, who I have learnedthat I am, who the world has
told me I am, and who Ipersonally feel myself to be.
Right the swabhava is, it'sone's own nature and who we are
(22:40):
as a unique combination of theGunas of sattva, rajas and
tamas, right? He's feelingoverwhelmed. Overwhelmed is a
tamasic feeling. Sorrow is atamasic feeling, confusion is a
tamasic feeling. It's heavy. Itbreeds inertia. So we find
(23:02):
Arjuna swabhava here as tamasic,heavy and unable to move, filled
with very heavy feelings.
And so he really, he doesn'tknow. So what you're saying
Nischala about is he even ableto make any type of decision
(23:22):
with this type of heavy mentalspace, heavy heart space, that
he's in. Could he make adecision,
Nischala Joy Devi (23:31):
and if he does, which he does, in this
case, makes a decision? Is itsomething that's going to be
going toward life, towardfulfillment, rather than keeping
him stuck where he is. And Ithink this is a really good time
to look at this, because itsays, I beg you, will you be my
(23:54):
teacher? And I think we reallyhave to look at this, because
what does that mean to be ateacher. And of course, the
Sanskrit word is guru. Guru,that which removes darkness is
really what we're talking abouthere, as a teacher, as a guru.
And if you choose a guru in astate like he's in, it's not
(24:19):
going to be the same teacherthat you're going to choose if
you're in a satwork state, and Ithink this is really something
that we have to look at, even inour modern society. Who are we
choosing, and are we choosingteachers that help us where we
are right now, or are wechoosing teachers that are going
(24:40):
to take us to the place that wewant to go. And this seems to be
a very interesting I hear a lotof people say, Oh yeah, my
teacher this. My teacher this.
And I wonder, what level are wetalking about with teacher. So
the question comes to me, is ateacher always a guru? And we
have now a plethora of teachersthat are claiming to be yoga
(25:04):
teachers. And I question that. Iquestion, are they really yoga
teachers, or have they reallyjust grasped a certain aspect of
yoga, and that's what they'regoing with, you know, I've
talked a lot about my time inmedicine, because it was a very
(25:25):
important time in my life, andalso it taught me a lot of
things, because, like the Gita,you're dealing with life and
death almost every day, and eventhe spaces in between that are
not maybe life and death willcan lead to that. So as we
(25:46):
choose to live in a particularway, we choose a mentor, we
choose a teacher that can teachus. So for instance, if you go
to a medical school, you get avery broad teaching, less
experience on how the bodyworks, how disease works, all
(26:12):
that. But then after that, youchoose a specialty. So I want to
go say, into ophthalmology. I'minterested in the diseases of
the eye and how to work with theeye. Then I specialize. I need a
different teacher. I need adifferent school. I need a
different guru to teach me thespecialty that I want to learn.
(26:34):
It's not general anymore. Sowhat I see here is the same kind
of thing, you ask someone to beyour teacher, and one of the
most important things aboutchoosing a teacher is making
sure that there is a certainlevel of integrity. Firstly, you
should make sure that theybelieve that you can even go
(26:57):
further than them, that's agreat teacher. A great teacher
wants the students to excel, notto say, Oh, well, I'm the
teacher. Stay behind me. That'snot a great teacher. I will.
There's a beautiful expressionthat some, most of you, probably
know, and it says, when thestudent is ready, the guru
(27:19):
appears. I've added a secondline to that, when the student
is ready, the guru disappears,because we can't have this
student relationship constantwithout making some changes for
advancement, and it could bewith the same teacher, but
(27:41):
sometimes you have to go toanother one who doesn't see you
as a beginning student anymore,who now sees you as someone they
can give the higher and betterteachings. So this is what that
line means to me. It's a verysimple line, but that's what it
means, and especially nowadays,when we're dealing with a lot of
Guru misrepresentation and evencriminal activities, we have to
(28:07):
be so careful who we're choosingas a guru. But the necessity of
having a teacher can't be saidstronger. We don't know the
path, we don't know the way. Weneed a guide.
Kamala Rose (28:24):
It certainly is a very important, one of the most
important questions that we askin the modern spiritual
landscape. I think the theadvice that you've given about
finding a teacher who respectsyou as a learner, respects your
inquiry is so important, and Iknow a lot of people have a
(28:49):
difficulty navigating this. Ithink one point I just wanted to
make is that it's because Arjunamakes this request, I beg you,
will you be my teacher, that theGita becomes possible, right? It
probably would have just goneon, and he would have said, Get
up, take up your arrow. Theywould have had the war. But
(29:11):
because Arjuna asks, Krishna,will you be my teacher? It takes
a turn, and the 18 chapters ofthe Bhagavad Gita are spoken, or
the we'll say, these, uh, theseend, 17 chapters are spoken for
the benefit of all of us. Butmore importantly, what do we
(29:32):
look for in a teacher, and whatstate of mind brings us to a
teacher? I know that for myself,I as a as a young mother, I was
very much that person with thebig diaper bags, carrying my
entire kitchen and nursery withme everywhere when I when I
(29:54):
first met my teacher, and so Iwas at a place where my life had
collapsed. Perhaps I didn't. Iwas not able to go out and have
fun like young women usually do.
I felt restricted by becoming anew mother and trying to
navigate that world. It was, itwas in that that I had a
spiritual awakening that led meto my Guru. And for many, many
(30:17):
years, and, you know, learned alot and but I think the idea
that we have to come to a pointto see, when is it time to
expand our learning, to expandour experience and to open up
our minds to maybe more ordifferent teachers is very
(30:40):
important for spiritual seekerstoday,
Nischala Joy Devi (30:48):
and be sure to look into them. Who are these
people that you're trustingyourself to? Where is their
integrity? There was one teacherthat I won't name who into the
90s publicly proclaimed that hestill gets very, very angry. And
(31:11):
I thought to myself, What a giftthat he just gave. Because if
that's what you want to be angryinto your 90s, follow this
person because that's how theyteach, if not, choose someone
who maybe has joy in their 90sor 80s or 70s or 60s or 50s or
(31:34):
whatever. Look for the qualitythat you want in a teacher and
then find that don't just takesomeone who claims something or
has wonderful writings, many ofthem have beautiful writings,
but in actuality, that's not howthey treat their disciples.
They're mean. They're physicallyviolent. They're verbally
(31:58):
violent, sexually violent. Thatdoes not bring us to that place
of peace and joy andrealization, run, is what I
would say, Run. But let's notleave too soon, right? He says,
this be my teacher. And then allof a sudden, what happens?
(32:24):
Arjuna, having expressed hisfears, said to his teacher, who
just a minute ago, said, be myteacher, and now he's saying, I
will not fight. And becomessilent. I
Kamala Rose (32:43):
what is in the heart of Arjuna here, he's
expressed his fears, and hisheart says, I will not fight. I
will not fight. It's up toKrishna to encourage him to
complete, to keep going in hiskshetra dharma. But I think all
of us as modern readers areunderstanding Arjuna. Very much.
(33:09):
We understand Arjuna, notwanting to fight in this war,
finding evil omens, feelingtransgression in this I think
understanding this about theGita is important that Krishnas
role is to encourage him to dohis Dharma, even in the midst of
(33:30):
this crisis of conscience. Yes,he's supposed to come out the
other side and say, no matterwhat, righteousness should be
upheld. And I'm going to goforward. But we see here by two
nine, where Arjuna expresses hisfears and says, I will not fight
that he's he's far fromconvinced. Yeah, he's far from
(33:53):
convinced. And,you know, and objectively, and
an overview of the Gita Krishnahas not really made his point
yet. He's not taught him adifferent way of thinking that
he would be able to reframe hisDharma and his action in right?
So he hasn't, he hasn't beentaught yet. All he said is, will
(34:15):
you be my teacher? And I justwant to return to that important
point you made, Nischala, thatwhat state of mind we have when
we are entering a situation ofteaching and learning, the state
of mind that we enter thespiritual path with. I I know
(34:35):
from my experience that acertain amount of
disillusionment is doesprecipitate a spiritual
awakening. So there's a certainamount of
complicated feelings and lack ofpersonal direction, that's part
(34:57):
of that. And I think. Think thisis something that the Gita can
teach us, and hopefully, you andI are hoping to get across to
our our audience of podcastlisteners that and those who
will read the book with us whenit's published, that there are,
there are many things to thinkabout, whether a teacher is
(35:19):
qualified to teach you whatyou're hoping to learn. What
does it look like? What do thestudents look like? Are you
able? Can you look at thestudents and see the people that
you would like to be? Can youlook at the teacher and see an
evolution of the path in a waythat you'd like to live at that
age? Sometimes we take a teacherfor a short period of time.
(35:44):
Sometimes we stay with theteacher for a long period of
time. I know that there's, youknow, on both sides. Sometimes
we grow complacent in a way, andfind comfort in in situations we
may have outgrown. On thestudents end, I think in all
(36:06):
ways, there's an attitude ofbravery here that we have to you
know, that we have to be braveto listen to our own hearts, and
we have to be brave to seebeyond the illusion of some sort
of perfect teacher.
Nischala Joy Devi (36:26):
I think we also come to a few of terms that
I know I've used and been taughtmany, many times, the different
kinds of gurus. And I think thisis very confusing to people,
they hear the word and you hearit now, you can pick up the Wall
Street Journal and see it alsothere, talking about financial
(36:49):
gurus, etc. So as I was taught,there's two kinds of gurus.
There's the Sat Guru, which is,I think, what most people think
of when they think of Guru. Theythink of this one sat, meaning
not just truth, but beyondtruth, the truth that cannot be
(37:09):
spoken, that that kind of truth.
This is the person who hasexperienced the realization that
we're hoping to get. They have.
They have moved through layersof consciousness to to bring
them to a place where they canunderstand the truths that we're
(37:30):
only hoping to evenintellectually grasp at this
point, so they can see us. Theycan see the color of our aura.
They can understand where we'regoing. They understand the
Dharma, they can lead us on thatpath. And this is the one that
you stay with for years, andmaybe it's for some people
lifetimes. I think the majorreligions that have a Godhead
(37:56):
this would be considered a SatGuru. Then there's the other
gurus that we were talking aboutbefore that, Gopi, that Kamala
was talking about, that allowsus to just pick up some some
tips, learn some things. And wecall those up a gurus. They're
not the Sat Gurus, they're theupper gurus. So say you want to
(38:19):
learn car mechanics, right? Yougo to an upper guru who's a
mechanic, and they can teachyou. If you want to learn some
asanas, you may go to an Asanateacher for something like that,
but don't expect those teachersto take you on to realization.
And people say, Well, do Ireally need a teacher. I think
(38:41):
everyone needs a teacher. Maybenot the whole time, but at least
in the beginning to get youstarted. You know, even now, the
internet is filled withtutorials. You can't buy a
toaster now without having ateacher teach you how to use it.
You can't get the car off thelot without someone coming and
showing you they're all upgurus. But what we're talking
(39:04):
here is a Sat Guru is someonewho who sees beyond all this.
And also, I just wanted to goback to another point that
Kamala was making about this,Thomas, I think this line here,
this 2.9 I will not fight andbecome silent. That is the
(39:27):
epitome of Thomas. He has nowshut down. It's almost like you
can see a flower. I actuallyhave some right outside my
office that during the day, theyare big, they are luscious, they
are beautiful. Come evening,they close up, it's the time of
(39:49):
Thomas, and it's the time theflowers draw in. And I see the
same thing happening here withArjuna. First he was shaking. So
that's outward. Signs, and thenfinally he closed down, I will
not fight, and becomes silent.
Kamala Rose (40:12):
That's a great place to wrap up. Thank you so
much for sharing all thatpractical knowledge with us. The
Sat Guru and the UPA guru. Iknow so many of us in the yoga
community have studied with somewonderful UPA gurus who have
passed on valuable informationon the methods of asana and
(40:35):
pranayama, but we shouldremember that this is only a
small part of the yoga practice,and that yoga aims to teach us
so much more about who we reallyare. So thank you for joining us
today for a woman's Gita in ournext podcast, we'll pick up here
(40:56):
in chapter two and continue toexplore the fascinating shlokas
of the Bhagavad Gita, Namaste,friends. Namaste,
Nischala Joy Devi (41:07):
thanks for joining.
Unknown (41:11):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with
Nischala Joy Devi and Kamalarose. We would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a woman's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(41:35):
Namaste. You.
Namaste. Welcome to A Woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
Women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
Nischala Joy Devi and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Namaste, friends.
Welcome to a woman's Gita.
Bhagavad. Gita, by and forWestern women. I'm Kamala rose
and I'm Nischala Joy Devi. Thankyou so much for joining us
on our last podcast. We left offat the end of chapter one with
(01:02):
arjunas declaration that I willnot fight, we discuss the state
of mind, the state of being thatArjuna is in called vashata, or
despondency, gloom, sorrow ordespair. Today, as we begin
Chapter Two, we pick up witharjunas feeling of not knowing
(01:27):
what is the right thing to do,and we are introduced to the
very first teachings of Krishnain chapter two, which is called
Sankhya yoga, we're presentedwith an overview of the entire
Bhagavad Gita. In chapter two,Krishna lays out many of the
(01:51):
main ideas that he'll becovering throughout the Gita.
And today we're going to takejust the very first part of
this. You the first verse inchapter two is spoken by
Sanjaya, our narrator, who says,who gives us the picture? Are
(02:13):
overwhelmed by despair at thechoice before him. Arjunas eyes
were filled with tears.
Nischala Joy Devi (02:21):
So let's go back to what we talked about at
the end of chapter one,when we saw that this was, in
fact, something that was verydeep for Arjuna, and he was
having what we were calling it asympathetic nervous system
reaction here, it seems thatthat is calming down, and what
(02:43):
is coming now is thisoverwhelming despair, this
hopelessness, this feeling of,what do I do next? I have these
horrible choices before me.
Which one do I choose? I justwanted to go back for a moment
and explain some of the changesthat we've done, especially here
(03:06):
in the beginning of chapter two,and it flows through the rest of
the Gita. Also, there's a lot ofname calling here. There's a lot
of shaming dejection, and wereally didn't feel that this was
life affirming or something thatis useful for a spiritual
(03:29):
aspirant. I think many of ushave learned that that old
saying Sticks and stones maybreak my bones, but names will
never hurt me is not trueanymore. We find that. So what
we're seeing here is we haveinstead decided to bring out the
(03:50):
compassionate side of Krishna tospur him on, a little more
compassion, a little moreunderstanding of the situation
that Arjuna is in as we begin tolisten to the teachings of Sri
Krishna.
Kamala Rose (04:09):
Krishna speaks in verse two, and the Sanskrit is
very famous. This opening verseof Krishna is teaching claibia
mass magama, Partha Na, toThea the Heart. Do not be weak
(04:34):
hearted. He says, and I think weI think Nischala and I agree
that for modern spiritualseeker, it really is a matter of
the heart that we're addressinghere. And as she said, name
calling really does not helpfor.
(04:59):
for. Although it's meant to spurhim on and, you know, to kind of
get him up and moving, it'sreally inappropriate for the
world we live in today.
Nischala Joy Devi (05:11):
The word for diet, to me is not just heart,
but it actually means thespiritual heart. There's a part
of that, I don't think whenthey're referring to it, they're
referring to the physical pump.
And I think that's what's soextraordinary about the heart,
because it's so many differentlevels. No other organ in our
body has these different levels.
(05:35):
We have the basic level that'sthe pump, that it does an
amazing job, by the way, amazingjob. It starts just shortly
after conception, and itcontinues to go until somewhere
near our last breath. It's anamazing organ that you know has
a spiritual component because ofthe way it functions. So the
(05:58):
physical heart pumps, and thenwe have the emotional heart, and
that's the one that feels, thathas the the the emotions in it,
the fear, the caring, the theunderstanding, all of those
things that the heart holds.
When you you see someonehurting, you feel pain for them,
(06:19):
etc. And then to me, the Fridais the next and the final level.
This is the spiritual heart.
This is the heart that holdscompassion. This is the heart
that understands we are all one.
So to me, this is very, verysignificant to hear that this is
(06:41):
the way they're describing. Itnot the function of the pump,
but the function of the heartthat beats the same beat and the
same rhythm as all other heartsin the universe. So this is a
very poignant part that we'rebeginning to move into this idea
(07:01):
of Gita and uncovering theknowledge of the self. Even
though this whole war is goingon, there's a whole other part
that's going on that reallybrings us to that spiritual
forefront, and then it's up tous, do we want to move forward
(07:24):
or not?
Kamala Rose (07:30):
Our translation?
Where does this fear andhopelessness come from? This is
Krishna speaking. You've strayedso far from your path that paves
the way to heaven. This is notthe time to give in to weakness,
right? So we're looking at theduty, the responsibility, that
(07:52):
Arjuna feels incapable ofcompleting. Right? He feels at
odds with in a crisis ofconscience with his very duty on
the battlefield. And as Nischalawas describing, we're really
talking about something deeperthan a physical just a merely
physical response. For Arjuna,this sense of duty is a
(08:17):
spiritual duty. The sense ofparticipation is a spiritual
participation, something ofbelonging, not only to society,
but a belonging to the universeand things making sense for him,
as far as his his given path. Itwasn't a chosen path, but a
(08:39):
given path. He feels thateverything that he's known
previously has failed him.
We're looking at the dharma of akshetra. Kshetra is our
warriors, police,administrators, rulers, and
(08:59):
they're expected to protect theland, protect the people, and
first and foremost, to upholdpeace and only when no other
solution is available, only thento fight. We have a big contrast
with the other group of cousinswho are not really following the
(09:24):
ethical code laid out forkshetra the kshetra class.
They're fighting because theywant to fight. They're fighting
because they are predominated byaggression. They want to have
more they it's personal forthem, and we have a really great
contrast with the cow, with thePandavas, who are not motivated
(09:47):
by having more, and are reallywrestling with their ethics in
this situation. Thus the theweakness of heart, the lack of
resolve. Yeah.
Nischala Joy Devi (10:02):
So when he says, this does not become this
behavior does not become awarrior of your status, arise
with a brave heart, do yourduty. It's specifically tied to
what Kamala was just sayingabout this warrior, this idea,
(10:25):
this but I guess my questionwould be, are the karavas
actually in Dharma, if they areusing this kshatra Dharma for
evil, isn't that is, isn't thatagainst the code of what they're
(10:47):
supposed to be doing?
Kamala Rose (10:49):
Yes, it absolutely is. And this, I think, is where
we get into that larger story ofthe Mahabharata, that these are
not just regular men, these aremen who have been corrupted by a
dark force, and so their theirpresence in the world as kshetra
(11:11):
are, is kind of offensive to thenorm, right? The the Pandavas
really are fighting a goodversus evil battle and trying to
stay the good guys, trying tomaintain that. The this, this
next verse, which is actuallymore of the what the Sanskrit is
(11:32):
that this behavior does notbecome a warrior of your status.
Krishna says, the the the factthat he's given up. He says,
arise, have a brave heart,right? Come with a brave heart
and do your duty. I think, formodern readers of the Gita, this
(11:52):
is, I hope, a good key tounderstanding why this is
happening and that we don't,especially as women, we don't
have to, we don't have to takethis all the way to hard, in a
way, it's not our duty to bewarriors and to police the
people in the land. That's notwho we are.
(12:16):
We're women, and they're womenare not part of the kshetra
Dharma doesn't really apply tous, but we do. I know you'll
agree, Nischala, we do have somany times when we have to say
to ourselves and to each other,arise. Come on with a brave
heart, do your duty.
Nischala Joy Devi (12:39):
Do your duty, but how you do your duty? Just
looking at something we'vewritten already for this,
Krishna berates Arjuna for beingcowardly, and is shamefully
trying to poke at his pride,trying to be a cheerleader to
Arjuna, but not in the way ofthe feminine. He's shaming him,
(13:00):
causing him to shrink more intohimself and bring on self pity.
So I think that we have tounderstand and maybe there's a
Dharma of women. Maybe there's awhole other way that women,
maybe all these casts, all theseseparate but is there a Dharma
(13:23):
that says about women that wehave our own creed that was
taken at birth without us evenknowing it, that this is
something that we are here toprotect and To nurture, not to
destroy so when even destroyingwith words doesn't have to be
(13:45):
necessarily with arrows or gunsor bombs, we can destroy
someone. We can take theirhappiness away just by saying
something to them that's that'snot kind. Again, we get back to
the simplicity of kindness, justsomething to be able to move
forward from Think of somethingnice about that person. You
(14:09):
know, it just doesn't make senseto berate someone and to push
them into to go to them, becausewhat you're doing is you're
bringing out a side of them thatthey don't even like there's not
even a comfort in it. So you'reallowing them to do that. And
then he goes into 1224, beforeme are teachers fit to be
(14:31):
worshiped. How can I shootarrows at those whom I venerate?
I'm not I. I understand that.
You're told your whole life,respect your elders, respect the
people who are your relatives,and all of a sudden, now fight
them, shoot them, kill them. Sothe confusion is just
(14:54):
overwhelming to him as it wouldbe, I think. To all of us, and
he says it would be better,indeed, to live on alms in the
world rather than to slay theseesteemed teachers. If I kill
them for worldly gain, all myearthly pleasure will be stained
with their blood. See, he'stalking now about them, but how
(15:20):
was he feel? How can he get upevery single morning and face
the day knowing that he's donethis? See, I think this, what
they're not looking at is longterm consequences. They're
looking at the immediate. And Ithink as women, we have no
(15:41):
choice but to look at somethingin the future. If we're even
doing something simple, likegoing to the park with our
children, right? It's not just,Oh, come on, let's go. And you
could jump in the car and go.
No, you have to plan on snacks.
You have to plan on drinks. Ifthey're little, you have to plan
(16:02):
on diaper or clothes chain. Youknow, you see some of these
mothers going to the park, theylook like Pack Mules because
there's so much that they haveto bring in preparation. They're
anticipating. And what I hearhere is there's no anticipation.
They're not seeing what happensat the end, when there's these
(16:22):
bloody bodies laying there, andyou have to go back and say to
the wives and the children andthe mothers and fathers, these
people are gone. For what? Forwhat? You can't replace that. So
this is what I'm experiencingwhen I read the first part of
(16:44):
this, and then he goes on and hebecomes a little bit Meeker.
See, there's a meekness thathappens because he's so confused
he doesn't know what to do, andhe's overwhelmed. I'm confused,
and don't know which way wouldbe better, that we should
conquer them or they shouldconquer us after slaying our
(17:06):
kin. What would we Why would wewish to live right? This is
exactly what I'm saying. You getup every morning. It never
leaves you. And I think on asmaller scale, many of us have
done something, maybe we saidsomething carelessly to someone
(17:28):
and hurt their feelings. Right?
This happens, and then what youwake up in the middle of the
night. Why did I say that toher? I saw her face. I saw the
way she looked. Why did I dothat? So if something that small
would stay with us, imagineslaughtering hundreds and
(17:51):
hundreds of people.
Kamala Rose (17:54):
And truly, for Arjuna, this is an incredible
conflict with what he knows tobe the right thing to do, that
you just don't kill family.
It's, it has, it has made it allnot work any longer. And you're
absolutely you brought up somany great points. Nishchala on
the consequences of this. Youknow, we're here with Arjuna on
(18:19):
the battlefield looking at hisgrandfather and at his teacher,
Drona. These two will have to bekilled in order for the war to
be over. And in fact, we knowfrom the Mahabharata that it's
not until Bhishma, thegrandfather of both the cowrivas
and the Pandavas until he dies,that the war is declared over,
(18:43):
and that lasts a long time. Hetakes this he takes his time in
passing. So this idea, I'mconfused and do not know which
would be better, that we shouldconquer them or that they would
conquer us. Which one is betterafter slaying our kin? Would we
(19:03):
wish to live after that? TheMahabharata makes, makes it very
clear that the Pandavas wrestledwith this for the rest of their
lives. Yeah, stayed with themlike, like you said. You said
before, it's like a posttraumatic stress, yeah, that
they'll carry with them for therest of their lives. Never
(19:27):
really certain whether it wasrighteous, yes,
Nischala Joy Devi (19:34):
exactly. If there is this even such a thing
as a righteous war, if that'seven a concept, you know, you
said something very interestingthat kind of stuck in my brain
for a moment, when you said, hethey can't kill their their
family. And so what I'mwondering we're at the beginning
(19:57):
of the Gita, when we get to theend, and. Do they start to see
everyone as their family? That'sto me, see that's, that's what
yoga is to me. Or one of thethings that it is that you begin
by saying, Oh yes, this is myblood relative. This is my blood
relative. And then you start torealize, as you go out, that who
(20:20):
isn't your relative, who isn'tyour your kith and kin,
everybody, the whole world,becomes that. So what? And I
really believe that Arjun isfeeling that on a certain level,
and maybe he has a difficultyexpressing it, but he's his
(20:41):
fear. And we know that that fearsyndrome too. It grabs us by the
neck sometimes, and we justcan't even speak. Our words
won't come out. We stutter.
We're so scared, and I reallyfeel that that's what's going on
with him, and what that does itclouds the mind. The mind can't
be clearer when that somethinglike that happens, my very being
(21:03):
is overwhelmed with sorrow andis confused about what is the
right thing to do, which is thebetter choice? I beg you. Will
you be my teacher? He's he'slaying down at the master's
feet. He's saying, I don't know,I surrender. Tell me, what do I
(21:24):
do?
Kamala Rose (21:31):
This verse is packed with meaning. We're on
two seven. My very being isoverwhelmed with sorrow and is
confused about what is the rightthing to do, this idea of my
very being, another beautiful,technical Sanskrit term called
(21:53):
swabhava. Arjuna says Myswabhava is overwhelmed, right?
And swabhava means one'sessential nature. So he's saying
at the very core of my being,the very core of who I am, and
part of who he is, is as awarrior who upholds this ethical
(22:17):
code, right? So he's saying it'snot working with who I know
myself to be, who I have learnedthat I am, who the world has
told me I am, and who Ipersonally feel myself to be.
Right the swabhava is, it'sone's own nature and who we are
(22:40):
as a unique combination of theGunas of sattva, rajas and
tamas, right? He's feelingoverwhelmed. Overwhelmed is a
tamasic feeling. Sorrow is atamasic feeling, confusion is a
tamasic feeling. It's heavy. Itbreeds inertia. So we find
(23:02):
Arjuna swabhava here as tamasic,heavy and unable to move, filled
with very heavy feelings.
And so he really, he doesn'tknow. So what you're saying
Nischala about is he even ableto make any type of decision
(23:22):
with this type of heavy mentalspace, heavy heart space, that
he's in. Could he make adecision,
Nischala Joy Devi (23:31):
and if he does, which he does, in this
case, makes a decision? Is itsomething that's going to be
going toward life, towardfulfillment, rather than keeping
him stuck where he is. And Ithink this is a really good time
to look at this, because itsays, I beg you, will you be my
(23:54):
teacher? And I think we reallyhave to look at this, because
what does that mean to be ateacher. And of course, the
Sanskrit word is guru. Guru,that which removes darkness is
really what we're talking abouthere, as a teacher, as a guru.
And if you choose a guru in astate like he's in, it's not
(24:19):
going to be the same teacherthat you're going to choose if
you're in a satwork state, and Ithink this is really something
that we have to look at, even inour modern society. Who are we
choosing, and are we choosingteachers that help us where we
are right now, or are wechoosing teachers that are going
(24:40):
to take us to the place that wewant to go. And this seems to be
a very interesting I hear a lotof people say, Oh yeah, my
teacher this. My teacher this.
And I wonder, what level are wetalking about with teacher. So
the question comes to me, is ateacher always a guru? And we
have now a plethora of teachersthat are claiming to be yoga
(25:04):
teachers. And I question that. Iquestion, are they really yoga
teachers, or have they reallyjust grasped a certain aspect of
yoga, and that's what they'regoing with, you know, I've
talked a lot about my time inmedicine, because it was a very
(25:25):
important time in my life, andalso it taught me a lot of
things, because, like the Gita,you're dealing with life and
death almost every day, and eventhe spaces in between that are
not maybe life and death willcan lead to that. So as we
(25:46):
choose to live in a particularway, we choose a mentor, we
choose a teacher that can teachus. So for instance, if you go
to a medical school, you get avery broad teaching, less
experience on how the bodyworks, how disease works, all
(26:12):
that. But then after that, youchoose a specialty. So I want to
go say, into ophthalmology. I'minterested in the diseases of
the eye and how to work with theeye. Then I specialize. I need a
different teacher. I need adifferent school. I need a
different guru to teach me thespecialty that I want to learn.
(26:34):
It's not general anymore. Sowhat I see here is the same kind
of thing, you ask someone to beyour teacher, and one of the
most important things aboutchoosing a teacher is making
sure that there is a certainlevel of integrity. Firstly, you
should make sure that theybelieve that you can even go
(26:57):
further than them, that's agreat teacher. A great teacher
wants the students to excel, notto say, Oh, well, I'm the
teacher. Stay behind me. That'snot a great teacher. I will.
There's a beautiful expressionthat some, most of you, probably
know, and it says, when thestudent is ready, the guru
(27:19):
appears. I've added a secondline to that, when the student
is ready, the guru disappears,because we can't have this
student relationship constantwithout making some changes for
advancement, and it could bewith the same teacher, but
(27:41):
sometimes you have to go toanother one who doesn't see you
as a beginning student anymore,who now sees you as someone they
can give the higher and betterteachings. So this is what that
line means to me. It's a verysimple line, but that's what it
means, and especially nowadays,when we're dealing with a lot of
Guru misrepresentation and evencriminal activities, we have to
(28:07):
be so careful who we're choosingas a guru. But the necessity of
having a teacher can't be saidstronger. We don't know the
path, we don't know the way. Weneed a guide.
Kamala Rose (28:24):
It certainly is a very important, one of the most
important questions that we askin the modern spiritual
landscape. I think the theadvice that you've given about
finding a teacher who respectsyou as a learner, respects your
inquiry is so important, and Iknow a lot of people have a
(28:49):
difficulty navigating this. Ithink one point I just wanted to
make is that it's because Arjunamakes this request, I beg you,
will you be my teacher, that theGita becomes possible, right? It
probably would have just goneon, and he would have said, Get
up, take up your arrow. Theywould have had the war. But
(29:11):
because Arjuna asks, Krishna,will you be my teacher? It takes
a turn, and the 18 chapters ofthe Bhagavad Gita are spoken, or
the we'll say, these, uh, theseend, 17 chapters are spoken for
the benefit of all of us. Butmore importantly, what do we
(29:32):
look for in a teacher, and whatstate of mind brings us to a
teacher? I know that for myself,I as a as a young mother, I was
very much that person with thebig diaper bags, carrying my
entire kitchen and nursery withme everywhere when I when I
(29:54):
first met my teacher, and so Iwas at a place where my life had
collapsed. Perhaps I didn't. Iwas not able to go out and have
fun like young women usually do.
I felt restricted by becoming anew mother and trying to
navigate that world. It was, itwas in that that I had a
spiritual awakening that led meto my Guru. And for many, many
(30:17):
years, and, you know, learned alot and but I think the idea
that we have to come to a pointto see, when is it time to
expand our learning, to expandour experience and to open up
our minds to maybe more ordifferent teachers is very
(30:40):
important for spiritual seekerstoday,
Nischala Joy Devi (30:48):
and be sure to look into them. Who are these
people that you're trustingyourself to? Where is their
integrity? There was one teacherthat I won't name who into the
90s publicly proclaimed that hestill gets very, very angry. And
(31:11):
I thought to myself, What a giftthat he just gave. Because if
that's what you want to be angryinto your 90s, follow this
person because that's how theyteach, if not, choose someone
who maybe has joy in their 90sor 80s or 70s or 60s or 50s or
(31:34):
whatever. Look for the qualitythat you want in a teacher and
then find that don't just takesomeone who claims something or
has wonderful writings, many ofthem have beautiful writings,
but in actuality, that's not howthey treat their disciples.
They're mean. They're physicallyviolent. They're verbally
(31:58):
violent, sexually violent. Thatdoes not bring us to that place
of peace and joy andrealization, run, is what I
would say, Run. But let's notleave too soon, right? He says,
this be my teacher. And then allof a sudden, what happens?
(32:24):
Arjuna, having expressed hisfears, said to his teacher, who
just a minute ago, said, be myteacher, and now he's saying, I
will not fight. And becomessilent. I
Kamala Rose (32:43):
what is in the heart of Arjuna here, he's
expressed his fears, and hisheart says, I will not fight. I
will not fight. It's up toKrishna to encourage him to
complete, to keep going in hiskshetra dharma. But I think all
of us as modern readers areunderstanding Arjuna. Very much.
(33:09):
We understand Arjuna, notwanting to fight in this war,
finding evil omens, feelingtransgression in this I think
understanding this about theGita is important that Krishnas
role is to encourage him to dohis Dharma, even in the midst of
(33:30):
this crisis of conscience. Yes,he's supposed to come out the
other side and say, no matterwhat, righteousness should be
upheld. And I'm going to goforward. But we see here by two
nine, where Arjuna expresses hisfears and says, I will not fight
that he's he's far fromconvinced. Yeah, he's far from
(33:53):
convinced. And,you know, and objectively, and
an overview of the Gita Krishnahas not really made his point
yet. He's not taught him adifferent way of thinking that
he would be able to reframe hisDharma and his action in right?
So he hasn't, he hasn't beentaught yet. All he said is, will
(34:15):
you be my teacher? And I justwant to return to that important
point you made, Nischala, thatwhat state of mind we have when
we are entering a situation ofteaching and learning, the state
of mind that we enter thespiritual path with. I I know
(34:35):
from my experience that acertain amount of
disillusionment is doesprecipitate a spiritual
awakening. So there's a certainamount of
complicated feelings and lack ofpersonal direction, that's part
(34:57):
of that. And I think. Think thisis something that the Gita can
teach us, and hopefully, you andI are hoping to get across to
our our audience of podcastlisteners that and those who
will read the book with us whenit's published, that there are,
there are many things to thinkabout, whether a teacher is
(35:19):
qualified to teach you whatyou're hoping to learn. What
does it look like? What do thestudents look like? Are you
able? Can you look at thestudents and see the people that
you would like to be? Can youlook at the teacher and see an
evolution of the path in a waythat you'd like to live at that
age? Sometimes we take a teacherfor a short period of time.
(35:44):
Sometimes we stay with theteacher for a long period of
time. I know that there's, youknow, on both sides. Sometimes
we grow complacent in a way, andfind comfort in in situations we
may have outgrown. On thestudents end, I think in all
(36:06):
ways, there's an attitude ofbravery here that we have to you
know, that we have to be braveto listen to our own hearts, and
we have to be brave to seebeyond the illusion of some sort
of perfect teacher.
Nischala Joy Devi (36:26):
I think we also come to a few of terms that
I know I've used and been taughtmany, many times, the different
kinds of gurus. And I think thisis very confusing to people,
they hear the word and you hearit now, you can pick up the Wall
Street Journal and see it alsothere, talking about financial
(36:49):
gurus, etc. So as I was taught,there's two kinds of gurus.
There's the Sat Guru, which is,I think, what most people think
of when they think of Guru. Theythink of this one sat, meaning
not just truth, but beyondtruth, the truth that cannot be
(37:09):
spoken, that that kind of truth.
This is the person who hasexperienced the realization that
we're hoping to get. They have.
They have moved through layersof consciousness to to bring
them to a place where they canunderstand the truths that we're
(37:30):
only hoping to evenintellectually grasp at this
point, so they can see us. Theycan see the color of our aura.
They can understand where we'regoing. They understand the
Dharma, they can lead us on thatpath. And this is the one that
you stay with for years, andmaybe it's for some people
lifetimes. I think the majorreligions that have a Godhead
(37:56):
this would be considered a SatGuru. Then there's the other
gurus that we were talking aboutbefore that, Gopi, that Kamala
was talking about, that allowsus to just pick up some some
tips, learn some things. And wecall those up a gurus. They're
not the Sat Gurus, they're theupper gurus. So say you want to
(38:19):
learn car mechanics, right? Yougo to an upper guru who's a
mechanic, and they can teachyou. If you want to learn some
asanas, you may go to an Asanateacher for something like that,
but don't expect those teachersto take you on to realization.
And people say, Well, do Ireally need a teacher. I think
(38:41):
everyone needs a teacher. Maybenot the whole time, but at least
in the beginning to get youstarted. You know, even now, the
internet is filled withtutorials. You can't buy a
toaster now without having ateacher teach you how to use it.
You can't get the car off thelot without someone coming and
showing you they're all upgurus. But what we're talking
(39:04):
here is a Sat Guru is someonewho who sees beyond all this.
And also, I just wanted to goback to another point that
Kamala was making about this,Thomas, I think this line here,
this 2.9 I will not fight andbecome silent. That is the
(39:27):
epitome of Thomas. He has nowshut down. It's almost like you
can see a flower. I actuallyhave some right outside my
office that during the day, theyare big, they are luscious, they
are beautiful. Come evening,they close up, it's the time of
(39:49):
Thomas, and it's the time theflowers draw in. And I see the
same thing happening here withArjuna. First he was shaking. So
that's outward. Signs, and thenfinally he closed down, I will
not fight, and becomes silent.
Kamala Rose (40:12):
That's a great place to wrap up. Thank you so
much for sharing all thatpractical knowledge with us. The
Sat Guru and the UPA guru. Iknow so many of us in the yoga
community have studied with somewonderful UPA gurus who have
passed on valuable informationon the methods of asana and
(40:35):
pranayama, but we shouldremember that this is only a
small part of the yoga practice,and that yoga aims to teach us
so much more about who we reallyare. So thank you for joining us
today for a woman's Gita in ournext podcast, we'll pick up here
(40:56):
in chapter two and continue toexplore the fascinating shlokas
of the Bhagavad Gita, Namaste,friends. Namaste,
Nischala Joy Devi (41:07):
thanks for joining.
Unknown (41:11):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with
Nischala Joy Devi and Kamalarose. We would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a woman's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(41:35):
Namaste. You.
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