October 12, 2025 • 46 mins
Join hosts Kamala Rose and Nischala Joy Devi as they explore Chapter 3 of the Bhagavad Gita through a feminine lens. In this episode, they delve into the often-overlooked themes of devotion, the ethic of care, and the unique wisdom women bring to spiritual practice. Through personal stories and thoughtful analysis, Kamala and Nischala reframe traditional interpretations of karma yoga, highlighting the importance of heart, compassion, and purposeful action in both ancient and modern contexts.
Key topics covered:
- The distinction between the paths of knowledge (jnana yoga) and action (karma yoga)
- The missing element of devotion (bhakti) in traditional interpretations
- The ethic of care versus the ethic of justice in women’s lives
- The role of women as nurturers and spiritual teachers
- Understanding Samadhi (perfection) in everyday life
- The interplay between spirit and nature, and honoring both
- The importance of non-attachment without losing compassion
- Ahimsa (non-harm) as a foundational principle for action
- Reimagining karma yoga for modern women and communities
Tune in for a heartfelt and insightful conversation that brings new depth to the timeless teachings of the Gita.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Namaste. Thank you for joiningus today for a woman's Gita
Podcast. I'm Kamala rose and I'mnishilla Joy Devi today, we're
picking up our discussion at thebeginning of chapter three,
karma yoga, and we're going tostart on these first two shlokas
today. If you believe thatknowledge is superior to action,
(00:29):
Arjuna asks, then why do youengage me in this dreadful act
of battle? I think many of uswho read the Bhagavad Gita come
up to this question over andover and over again, how is it
that we can be reading thisrefined knowledge of yoga, this,
(00:52):
this game changing philosophy,and at the same time be dealing
with this horrendous War sonishthala Davie and I are going
to dive into verse chapterthree. Verse one, I know she has
a lot to say about it too.
(01:13):
The thing that makes me curiousis here we are already in
chapter three. Chapter Two, aswe know, was a big chapter, and
Arjuna still has doubts. Hestill is questioning what's
going on, even with all thiswonderful explanation and wisdom
(01:33):
that Sri Krishna has given him,he still, he still doesn't
understand and how difficult itis to practice these things that
he's asking them for. So when hesays, If you believe that
knowledge is superior to action,why do you engage me in this
dreadful act of battle? I thinkprobably many of us are feeling
(01:59):
that, how is this inrelationship to that peaceful
quietness that we think of whenwe practice yoga, or our goal is
to go to yoga. The other thingthat that struck me very strong
is he's mentioning two he'smentioning the wisdom, or what
(02:21):
we call Jnana yoga and theaction or Karma Yoga. And in my
life, I know that there has tobe more than two, and I think
we've talked about this before,but it probably is okay to
mention it again, that withoutthe devotional aspect, without
(02:44):
the love, without therecognizing that the compassion
to someone who may be in need,that the Karma Yoga, to me, is
not as effective. It justdoesn't have the power of of if
you really cared, if you reallyyour heart was involved in it.
(03:06):
And I always go back to the oneof the scenes that I've seen in
a movie of Mother Teresa andscraping this man who was stuck
to the road because of hisbody's excreting certain blood
and mucus, and you can use yourimagination for the rest. And
(03:29):
she doesn't just take him to aplace where he can be helped.
She literally takes him in herarms and holds him. And he dies
within the next couple ofminutes, and someone said to
her, why? Why did you evenbother? You knew he was going to
be dead very soon, and she said,at least for those last few
(03:52):
moments of his life, you knowthat someone cared. And to me,
that has to be added to it, andthis is where we get back to the
head, heart and hand, all of it.
What a beautiful combinationwe've been given in the yoga
sutras. They call it Kriya Yoga,the union of the three yogas
that make us so strong and sopowerful. So to me, what about
(04:17):
the bhakti? That's what I wouldsay. What about the bhakti? And
then the other part of me says,Well, maybe he was afraid to
open his heart, because if youopen your heart and you see that
you're doing harm to others, ithurts even more. So this first
sloka really stirred me and gotme stuck in one place, in a way,
(04:41):
because I felt this very, verystrong need for devotion, for
honoring the person. For, youknow, it goes back also to the
native. People of our lands,when they talk about even
(05:02):
killing an animal, they pray forthe animal's soul first. So
that's what I would add. If Iwas rewriting this, I would
definitely put the bhakti inhere,
and you really bring our focusto the state of mind of Arjuna,
(05:24):
where this question is comingfrom, and I, I think, coming
from the highly philosophicalchapter two, which is a sort of
a layout, a roadmap of theBhagavad gitas philosophy and
discourse on reality, right? Sowe we sort of end in a
(05:46):
theoretical, intellectual sortof place. What we cover in
chapter two. So I think that'sreally important to remember
that in this narrative, in thistext, we are still standing on a
battlefield, and our character,who's meant to represent all of
us is, you know, is superconfused now, like, here I am
(06:08):
melting on the floor because Iam afraid to, you know, kill
these worthy people. I think Imight break the world if I do
it. Right? That's what Arjunasaying. I have a con. My Dharma
says that I'm should never dowhat I'm being asked to do.
Right my my family dharma. Butthen, you know, then there's
(06:29):
this personal Dharma that I feelright. I want to uphold the
good. I want to make sure goodpeople are in charge of this
kingdom, but I cannot reconcileit with killing my grandfather,
who is to be revered, right? Sowe're back to this very
subjective world of Arjunahaving a, you know, complete
(06:53):
crisis of identity, everyone whoall the people that he's been up
until now in his life as amighty warrior just melted away.
Right he is. He's in a differentplace right now, and he's asking
a very real question that, look,Krishna, all this theoretical
(07:16):
knowledge that you just gave meabout the self, about how action
works, about meditation, right?
The importance of seeing thingswith objectivity. What does this
have to do with this war? Whatabout this situation? Why are
you, if all of this is true andthe Self exists in all people in
(07:38):
the same way, why are youengaging me to act in this
battle? Right, in this veryvisceral experience where blood
will be shed and, you know, verystrongly, decisive action will
be taken. Right? Arjun issaying, if you want me to go for
this goal of the self, thisrefined, you know, very quiet,
subtle part of my being. Thenlet's talk about going to the
(08:02):
monastery. Exactly, yeah, let'sget the hell out of here and go
and walk this other path thatleads to that goal. So you know
that that real world conflict,and I think the need for heart
in understanding the the wayeach of us comes to this
(08:24):
conflict on our own right, itmight not be, I think it would
be rare for the listeners hereto have had this crisis of
conscience happen on a on abattlefield, right, right,
especially this kind of abattlefield in real life,
although it very well could havehappened, right? Some of our
(08:46):
listeners could have beensoldiers and been in this
situation, right? But for manyof us, these, this sort of
doubting of our reality, feelingin conflict with our roles. And
identities versus ourphilosophies. The kind of thing
that makes you say Enough ofthis philosophy. Just tell me
(09:10):
what's the right thing to dowhen those moments come to us,
especially as women, they theywere going to look a little bit
different. You know, it mightcome at that 4am feeding, or
that one last diaper, or thatstudent in class who didn't want
to go home, right? We come intoconflict with our values, our
(09:33):
ethics and our philosophies indifferent ways at different
times in our lives. So I thinkrecognizing the core of this
first shloka as just a very realquestion that we've all asked in
different ways in our ownlanguages is a good way to
(09:54):
start.
And then we see also in three.
Too, with these contradictorywords, you were confusing me. I
think that's that's that to me,that right there is humility,
that he's only saying that he'sconfusing him. I think he's
doing more than confusing him,but he's trying to be respectful
(10:15):
and and have a little bit ofcontrol of his emotions at this
more moment. Tell me what is theone thing I need to do to reach
the highest goal. He's stillasking for this. Okay, I
understand all this, but let'sget to this, this higher goal.
And, you know, I can't evenimagine, although, I think even
(10:39):
though none of us, many of us,have not been in a realistic war
situation, we've certainly beenon battlefields. I know, having
worked in medicine, I was in thebattlefield almost every day,
there's always somethinghappening that you have to be
alert to and you have to be ableto act immediately without
(11:04):
really thinking. That's wherethe training comes in the
military or medicine or whateverwe're doing and but you know, if
you go back and you really lookat the wisdom that comes out of
some of these battles and someof these wars that we've been
in, I have to go back to theRevolutionary War, which in the
(11:30):
United States, which was a very,very difficult war, war in a lot
of ways, Because the troops werenot able to have a lot of the
equipment and the clothing toprotect them that they would
have needed. It was sort of aput together at the last minute
(11:50):
kind of war that, okay, let's,let's get into this. But the one
thing that that, that they didthere that really stayed with
me, and here again, I see feelit on the battlefield here,
there was a saying that came andsaid, don't shoot until you see
the whites of their eyes. Andever since I heard this as a
(12:14):
child, I've been cogitating andthinking about this. What? Why
would they say something likethat? What? What could that
possibly mean? And I realizedthat it brings the whole idea of
war back to a level of humanitythat you're actually seeing who
(12:34):
you're fighting. And I thinkwhat happened here with Arjuna,
that's exactly what happened. Ifhe had just gone out and started
shooting arrows in any way or atpeople, he may not have had the
emotional impact that he hadwhen he looked not just at the
(12:55):
whites of their eyes, but if whothey are, this is my grandsire,
this is my uncle, this is mycousin, and you it's very
difficult to shut that off. AndI think we talked about this
before in medicine, we're taughtnever to treat our family
(13:17):
because there's too muchattachment to it. There's too
much feelings, whether goodfeelings or not good feelings.
And I think this is what Arjunis coming up against, again, uh,
he's he's looking, he's seeing.
This is not, these are not theenemy as depicted. This is the
(13:42):
enemy that's also my kith andkin. This is also part of me. So
what do I do? And that's why hesays it in such frustration,
tell me what the one thing Ineed to do to reach the highest
goal is this? It that I have tokill my my family. So I think
(14:04):
this is something that'sperpetuated too. I know in
Christianity and Catholicism,especially, a lot of the saints
that were picked did some awfulthings. You know, King
wenceslaw, for instance, hekilled his whole family to get
in his position, and he wassainted because he brought more
(14:27):
people into the fold. So I thinkthere's this nothing is purely
good or purely bad in this kindof situation. And I think this
is what Arjun is going for, atleast, this is what I'm going
through. I read it, so I'massuming that he went through a
similar kind of thing.
And I want to get to that ideaof the kind of awakening that
(14:51):
comes out of war times in just amoment. Because, you know, we're
looking at some specific idea.
As in the Sanskrit verses here,which are fascinating, Krishna
is referring to this idea ofintelligence and knowledge by
using the word buddhi, right?
(15:13):
You may be familiar with this asthe intelligence, the wisdom
faculty, the buddhi that weutilize in meditation, right? So
in chapter two, Krishna spokevery specifically about the use
of the buddhi directing that ina way that one would be able to
(15:34):
see a higher good, right? Thisis kind of the internal work of
karma yoga that was outlined inchapter two. So when Arjuna says
that is that knowledge, is thisknowledge through the buddhi
better than karma, right actingin the world this way, he uses
(15:56):
the epithet for for Krishna,that is janar Dana, which says,
I am. It calls him the agitatorof men. You the agitator of men?
Tell me which one is better, orkarma, right? Then he goes on to
(16:17):
say, the why this terribleaction? Do you urge? Oh,
handsome haired one Keshava, oneof my favorite epithets of
Krishna, the one with thebeautiful hair, then picking up
in in verse two, he says, Yourspeech sounds equivocal, right?
(16:41):
You these words arecontradictory. You're confusing
me. What are you confusing?
You're confusing my buddhi Icannot make heads or tails of
what you're talking about. It'sgiving Moha confusion, right? We
know this idea of Moha confusionas being a pretty core obstacle
on the path of yoga, right? Whenthe mind is cloudy, I can't I
(17:03):
can't sort it out too muchinformation. I'm overwhelmed,
right? We might call this anoverwhelm. Surely tell me what
is the the highest good. And heuses the word here, Shreya
Shreyas is a higher good, asupreme good as which is a, I
(17:25):
think, a foreign idea toWesterners, that there's some
sort of higher standard thatthat our society is measured
against. Yeah, right. I think, Ithink, you know, Westerners, we
come from a place where we're,you know, we're certainly guided
(17:46):
by some sense of a manifestdestiny, like you said in the,
you know, looking at Americanhistory, which is so interesting
and so recent and so wellrecorded, to kind of give us a
sense of ideas in motion, in aspiritual sense, but this idea
of a higher good, a place whereall people are cared for, I
(18:12):
think we have to ask a couplequestions. What does Arjuna mean
by the Shreyas that he'sspeaking about, show me what is
the higher good, right? Becausehe's framing this in his own
terms, as a Kshatriya warrior interms of the Vedic Varna system,
right? That's where hisquestions coming from and where
(18:32):
his conflict is coming from.
Right? As modern readers, we'renot really measuring against a
standard of society laid out bythe Vedas. We're coming from a
different place when we look atthe idea of a higher good, what
does what would that mean?
Right? We, you know, we thinkabout ideas of universal
(18:56):
freedom, equality for all peopleright, our civil rights
movements, our women's rightsmovements are built on the idea
of striving for a higher good.
But I think it's a good time toacknowledge that the culture of
the Gita and the culture of ustoday, there is a disparity. So
(19:20):
another place where our we couldexperience Moha in the buddhi in
reading these verses. But Ithink it's, I think, as you
said, Nishtha, this core ideathat out of the confusion, out
of everything being tossed up inthe air, in a sense of
(19:41):
reconsideration, wars andcultural shifts that lead to
wars can often bring this abouton a personal level for
individuals and beget largermovements like wars. There's
like religious revivals, right,that lead to people questioning
(20:06):
their sense of values andbelonging in a in a more
spiritual sense, it's it'sfollowing the Vietnam War that
we have the growth of yoga inthe West, kind of explosion
where yoga Swamis and teachersand vocabulary and ideas and
(20:30):
postures, and, you know, it was,you know, following the Vietnam
War. So wars and cultural shiftsis another dimension. I think
that's very interesting toexplore here.
You know, I think if we didn'thave the emotional attachment
(20:51):
and looked at war from adistance and a maybe that's why
they're not including the bhaktiin here, I don't know, but we
could see really what you'resaying, and just moving that
even further in, it becomesalmost a purge. And from an
(21:14):
emotional and a humanitarianpoint of view, what I'm saying
is not so, but if you look at itfrom a different level, and like
a little bit like a moderate andnot, not a devastating, but a
moderate forest fire, it's thesame kind of thing. It happens
(21:34):
by itself. It gets all theunderbrush burned away so the
trees can then grow better andsustain and for a society, it
takes a long time to overcomeand to come back from a
situation like that, especiallysince historically, this is the
(21:58):
time when the men were wiped outof societies. They were not
left. It was only women, and wesee this in the end of the Gita
too, that it's the women thatare left, the women and children
to rebuild and to make a countrythat's hopefully better than the
one that they had before. Nowsometimes that doesn't happen.
(22:23):
Sometimes it's rebuilt in theway of the the conquerors. And
it's not a pleasant experience,but it's always a big change,
like you're talking about,sometimes a cultural shift that
comes in, a physical shift thatcomes in, something happens, and
even to the land itself. Youhave to understand that by
(22:47):
putting these land mines in, bybombing we're destroying Earth
itself in this so it's a verydestructive force from the
nature of the earth all the wayto nature of us and as a human
race. Yet it seems to have comefrom millenniums and millennials
(23:12):
and millenniums before this,1000s and 1000s of years it's
been going on. So there must besome purpose to it in the
evolutionary process, as webecome more and I would like to
air quote this, if I may,civilized, because that's always
(23:33):
a question in my mind. Are webecoming more civilized? But
some of us are moving away fromthis idea that we can actually
benefit by harming someone else,and once we get the concept that
all we're harming is ourselves,you know, I was thinking the
(23:54):
other day. I was I was lookingat a group of people that
monetarily, have very little.
And they were all sittingtogether, and they were telling
stories and joking and pattingeach other on the back and doing
all kinds of things. And then Ilooked over to group people that
were very affluent, and theywere very still and serious, and
(24:14):
I thought, what happens to us,all the the praying and the
hoping that we get monetarystability, and then we get
unhappy. We're not happy withit. So it's the same thing like
this with this war. How much canwe get? How much can we take?
Let me put it that way, andstill feel fulfilled, because
(24:37):
taking is not what makes usfulfilled, it's giving. So we're
in a big dungeon here,and this is, I think, an
important question to ask in ourrelationship with karma, is
giving and. And taking one, oneof the ways Mr. Ramaswamy
(25:03):
explained karma that sticks withme forever is, you know, our
relationship with naturePrakriti is, you know, explored
in depth in all yogaphilosophies. But he sort of
summarized that there's a pointwhere you're taking more than
your share. You're taking toomuch from nature, right? We all
(25:27):
this is a core idea in the Gita.
We're entitled to our work andto our labors and to this. And I
think what you're sayingreflected in the people who
don't have so much, there's anunderstanding that I'm not going
to get anything out of this. Butlook at this western culture
(25:49):
that, you know, many people arecoming to this idea for the
first time when they'reintroduced to yoga philosophy
and Buddhist philosophy. And,you know, Eastern thought that
there is some place of takingtoo much, of taking beyond your
share. It goes completelyagainst everything that the
(26:10):
American Dream is built on, andthe sort of Western ideal this,
you know, underlying myth ofperpetual growth that we've been
fed by our our culturalparadigm, right? We we can
understand intellectually thatit's not sustainable. You can't
(26:31):
just keep growing and, you know,bubbling and leaps and bounds,
like what we see in our globalbusiness world. We see companies
that you never heard of, and allof a sudden it's a gazillion
dollar business. Yeah, right. Ijust saw that the documentary on
Twitter. So interesting, rightout of an idea spawns a giant
(26:56):
cultural change, and, you know,the the money, right? But at the
same time, you know what, what'swhere? Where's the balance in
any of this like this is whatwe're accustomed to seeing,
ginormous explosions of growthand wealth, and often lose sight
(27:21):
of the quality of life that isreally what we're looking for,
you know, to be happy andhealthy and feel safe and loved,
feel a sense of respect and thatour contributions are valuable,
right Not to make a milliondollars or to become famous,
(27:43):
like so many children aregrowing up today, with the goal
of becoming famous on socialmedia, which is, again, it's
about a million miles away Fromthis battlefield in antiquity.
But the same ideas of learningto balance one's self in the
(28:07):
world one's contribution withthe reciprocation with what
we're receiving back. I alsowanted to pick up that idea that
you know, often out of these wartimes like you, like you
(28:28):
mentioned at the end of thiswar, it whose left is women and
children and men you know, torebuild a society. And I think
if we look at religious orspiritual thought in terms of
its relationship to wars, we canbuild a kind of interesting
(28:49):
story that new ideas spreadingamong women post war, taking
lots of many seeds sproutingover time, right? Becoming more
institutionalized, moreconservative, growing into
(29:11):
greater patriarchal structures,right? But just look at you
brought up the RevolutionaryWar. I mean, before that, the
United States was largely madeof Calvinists, very conservative
religious sects. And after theRevolutionary War, a whole new
diversity starts to grow. Andthen after the subsequent wars
(29:35):
in the Civil War, in particular,a huge explosion in Quakers the
Theosophists, started makingtheir way to the West Coast. I
don't know if you've ever heardof a wonderful woman named
Catherine Tingley. I've alwaysbeen a huge fan. She writes very
(29:59):
much from the heart. Heart, andshe had her spiritual awakening
on the battlefield in the CivilWar as a nurse, caring for
caring for all of the wounded.
And she was a daughter of awealthy family, and out of her
experience on the battlefield,she made her way west to
(30:19):
California. She followed thatAmerican sense of hopefulness
and utopianism to the WestCoast, and became a very
integral part of the founding ofthe Point Loma branch of the
Theosophical Society, and she'ssometimes credited as bringing
(30:41):
the avocado to California.
Oh, interesting, interesting.
Yes, where did she bring it fromMexico? Oh, okay, okay, that's,
that's great. That's a greatstory. Yeah, you know, I think
that sometimes we confuse. Andif we look at you, mentioned two
(31:05):
different, very different wars,mentioned a revolutionary in the
civil and I think that thereasons for each were very
different, why they were fought,and because of the morality
issue and the humanity issue ofthe Civil War, that, to me, is
(31:29):
why all these others grew up,the Philosophical Society, et
cetera, whereas theRevolutionary War was A very
different war. It was breakingoff from England and for our
independence. So the flavor ofthe war lasts till afterwards,
so that so when we start toreconstruct after something has
(31:54):
been destroyed, hopefully, thereason that that was fought is
part of the reconstruction. Sothis was because everybody
should be seen as a human. Nohuman should be seen as partial
as it was during the Civil War.
(32:19):
And so to me, it would be verylogical for these very
humanistic, spiritual paths andgroups to come forward like what
went on during the Civil War,the the underground railroads
and the All the getting slavesout, etc, etc. It almost forced
(32:43):
people into a morality that theyin everyday life they may not
have appreciated, but because itwas such a catastrophic
experience, fought in on theland where people actually
lived. I think there was a bigchange in it from that. And so I
(33:07):
have to I those are the ones I'mfamiliar with. And you talk
about heroes like the CrimeanWar, my hero was Florence
Nightingale, being a medicalperson that, and through that,
the what she saw was broughtnightmares, but in it, she had
(33:27):
the ability, and I think this iswhat we're getting at here in
the Gita. I'm hoping that's whatwe're getting at through this
awfulness of men screaming inpain, rotting in their own beds,
etc. She just took the simplestthings and she said, How can I
(33:49):
make them a little morecomfortable? How can I make this
a little more human? Maybe byputting a bell beside their bed
so they don't have to screamout. They can ring it if they
need us, washing them just thesimplest thing she thought of
(34:10):
that changed everything stilltoday. This is what used, not
the little bell anymore. Theyhave much sophisticated bells to
ring, but this was her way ofmaking this war, this horrendous
experience, human. And I thinkthat's what the spirituality is,
(34:34):
to find some kind of humannessand spirituality in even the
worst,strong, strong image and strong
reality of the gitas teachings.
Because really, in each chapter,we are brought back to the
battlefield and have to confrontthe you know, the setting of the
(34:59):
story. As we encounter everincreasingly refined spiritual
philosophy that's also containedright next to a very violent
situation. So I think the timeto reframe the situation and
(35:19):
consider what does that mean toyou today? What does that mean
to us today, to serve a highergood? The idea of Shreya, right?
We're talking about a way that aserving serving a higher good,
(35:41):
something that's beyond apersonal need. It's to help keep
society healthy. And you know, IIt's one of the things I really
love about reading theespecially the the ancient
Sanskrit prayers on peace. And Isee this addressing of the
(36:07):
higher good all the time. Andthat idea that May all beings be
well, may loka samasta, sukinobhavantu, May everyone
everywhere be happy and free. Imean, what a beautiful statement
of the higher good, right? It'sit goes the Upanishads speak of
(36:30):
this, the kata Upanishadbeautifully speaks of Shreya,
the higher good, in terms of acontrast, what is good and what
is prayer, what is gratifying tothe individual? Right? Yama, the
god of death, asks the studentto contemplate knowing the
(36:52):
difference between Shreya, thehighest good, and prayer, the
personal want, right, right?
Something that's gratifying tothe ego. These are important.
This is where the discernmentlies. This is where we are able
to tell whether you're takingmore than your share, whether
you're taking too much fromproperty. And the scales become
(37:15):
unbalanced. And I asked myselfthis question all the time, is
this good, or is it gratifying?
Is it Shreya, or is it Praya?
And so the tradition asks usthis and gives us these
examples, these beautifulprayers, and you know, to think
(37:36):
of something like the Mangalamantra that speaks of, you know,
a time far before our currenthistory, where the this very
honest wish for the welfare ofall says, may our leaders not be
corrupt. May they please followthe path that's best for all of
(37:59):
the people, right? We get thisidea that the struggles that we
are struggling with today arethe same struggles that our
spiritual ancestors east andwest have struggled with, right?
The all of the people on theprecipice of war, whether that's
the Civil War, the RevolutionaryWar, the Crimean War, or this
(38:21):
battle of kruschettra in ancienthistory. Throughout history,
these wars, seemingly werefought because of maintaining
the higher good, right? That'sbeen a rationalization for war,
exactly, yeah, and at the sametime the rationalization for the
(38:42):
rebuilding afterward. So I thinkthis just really invites us to
to think about these ideas, notas like just one single answer
or one single way ofunderstanding the concept of
Shreya, or that word, we can't Ithink that's what I love so much
(39:06):
about Sanskrit, is you can't putit in a tiny box and say that
you just understand it. Itrequires going over it and
taking it up in your mind andthinking about the way you think
about it. And how do you picturethat higher good? Nishthala, how
do you serve that higher good?
(39:29):
I do my best, you know? I try totake a step back when something
happens. I think I was talkingto someone yesterday, the other
day, and this is don't just dosomething. Stand there. Observe
First, take a moment to look atthe whole situation and even the
(39:52):
teacher I know, having beenunder the tutelage of a yoga
master for so long. Most, I haveto say, most of what I felt, how
he taught was irrational attimes, and did I always do it?
No, because sometimes my minddidn't agree with it, and and
(40:20):
then sometimes I did, because Icould go, I stopped enough like
just what you're saying, Kamala,I stopped enough to to look at
it and say, My I feel like hehas the greater good in his
consciousness. And I'm going togo with it, even if I don't
(40:40):
understand it. But I think wehave to be very careful, because
we have to purify ourselvesenough to know if this is
something that's going toelevate us and it is for the
greater good or not, and untilthat purification happens.
(41:02):
Sometimes we have to trust ateacher that they know. So we
have to be very careful how wechoose a teacher. And when you
were talking about these ancientprayers and slokas, one of my
favorite that that I've doneevery morning for no matter how
many years ends in MA, VID,Visha, vahaee. And this is
(41:29):
translated in a very fewdifferent ways, but one of the
ways it was translated is you'retalking to the teacher. This is,
this is a dialog between you andyour teacher, it can be an
external teacher. It can be aninternal teacher. But what
you're saying is, may we harborno ill feelings toward each
(41:53):
other. And I could never figureout why this would be there. But
when I read the Gita, it makessense the teacher is pushing you
to do something that you can'tsee the bigger picture of, and
you may start to resent it. Iknow people do, and they get
(42:16):
angry then at the teacher who'strying to move us forward. So
this chant is saying to us, thissloka is saying to us, don't
cherish any ill feelings towardeach other. There's a high like
you're talking about. There's ahigher purpose for all of this.
(42:37):
Have trust, a matter of fact,and then it could also mean your
fellow UPA gurus, your littlegurus that are all around you.
Actually, when we did this, wechanted that last line three
times for emphasis, to make surethat we knew what it was about
(42:59):
and to develop more of thistrust that they are taking us in
the direction, and it could beour own heart that's taking us
in the direction that we don'teven follow. It's a way to trust
and what a what a great thoughtto end on. Sahana vavatu,
sahanau, bhunaku, sahavir,yankar, may we cherish
(43:38):
no ill feelings toward anyoneI'll just, I just want to say
before I turn on my computerevery morning, I chant this,
right? I I have a I see mycomputer screen and the zoom as
a way of being together withother people, and, you know,
really connecting throughthrough through the internet,
(44:00):
with people I've never metbefore. And to me, that's,
that's where I've got thattogetherness, that it's very,
it's a very hopeful thing. AndI, you know, I've, I've prayed
this prayer for so many yearsalso, and taken so much meaning,
and I feel like you know it atthis stage in my life, and it's
(44:22):
you know, it has a specialmeaning that I meet people like
you and like our listeners bycoming together here in podcast
land. So thanks for joining ustoday, everybody. That was a
nice way for me to wrap it up.
And we thank you all so much formaking time to listen to our
(44:44):
dialogs. We'll look forward toseeing you next time.
Namaste. Namaste. You.
Namaste. Thank you for joiningus today for a woman's Gita
Podcast. I'm Kamala rose and I'mnishilla Joy Devi today, we're
picking up our discussion at thebeginning of chapter three,
karma yoga, and we're going tostart on these first two shlokas
today. If you believe thatknowledge is superior to action,
(00:29):
Arjuna asks, then why do youengage me in this dreadful act
of battle? I think many of uswho read the Bhagavad Gita come
up to this question over andover and over again, how is it
that we can be reading thisrefined knowledge of yoga, this,
(00:52):
this game changing philosophy,and at the same time be dealing
with this horrendous War sonishthala Davie and I are going
to dive into verse chapterthree. Verse one, I know she has
a lot to say about it too.
(01:13):
The thing that makes me curiousis here we are already in
chapter three. Chapter Two, aswe know, was a big chapter, and
Arjuna still has doubts. Hestill is questioning what's
going on, even with all thiswonderful explanation and wisdom
(01:33):
that Sri Krishna has given him,he still, he still doesn't
understand and how difficult itis to practice these things that
he's asking them for. So when hesays, If you believe that
knowledge is superior to action,why do you engage me in this
dreadful act of battle? I thinkprobably many of us are feeling
(01:59):
that, how is this inrelationship to that peaceful
quietness that we think of whenwe practice yoga, or our goal is
to go to yoga. The other thingthat that struck me very strong
is he's mentioning two he'smentioning the wisdom, or what
(02:21):
we call Jnana yoga and theaction or Karma Yoga. And in my
life, I know that there has tobe more than two, and I think
we've talked about this before,but it probably is okay to
mention it again, that withoutthe devotional aspect, without
(02:44):
the love, without therecognizing that the compassion
to someone who may be in need,that the Karma Yoga, to me, is
not as effective. It justdoesn't have the power of of if
you really cared, if you reallyyour heart was involved in it.
(03:06):
And I always go back to the oneof the scenes that I've seen in
a movie of Mother Teresa andscraping this man who was stuck
to the road because of hisbody's excreting certain blood
and mucus, and you can use yourimagination for the rest. And
(03:29):
she doesn't just take him to aplace where he can be helped.
She literally takes him in herarms and holds him. And he dies
within the next couple ofminutes, and someone said to
her, why? Why did you evenbother? You knew he was going to
be dead very soon, and she said,at least for those last few
(03:52):
moments of his life, you knowthat someone cared. And to me,
that has to be added to it, andthis is where we get back to the
head, heart and hand, all of it.
What a beautiful combinationwe've been given in the yoga
sutras. They call it Kriya Yoga,the union of the three yogas
that make us so strong and sopowerful. So to me, what about
(04:17):
the bhakti? That's what I wouldsay. What about the bhakti? And
then the other part of me says,Well, maybe he was afraid to
open his heart, because if youopen your heart and you see that
you're doing harm to others, ithurts even more. So this first
sloka really stirred me and gotme stuck in one place, in a way,
(04:41):
because I felt this very, verystrong need for devotion, for
honoring the person. For, youknow, it goes back also to the
native. People of our lands,when they talk about even
(05:02):
killing an animal, they pray forthe animal's soul first. So
that's what I would add. If Iwas rewriting this, I would
definitely put the bhakti inhere,
and you really bring our focusto the state of mind of Arjuna,
(05:24):
where this question is comingfrom, and I, I think, coming
from the highly philosophicalchapter two, which is a sort of
a layout, a roadmap of theBhagavad gitas philosophy and
discourse on reality, right? Sowe we sort of end in a
(05:46):
theoretical, intellectual sortof place. What we cover in
chapter two. So I think that'sreally important to remember
that in this narrative, in thistext, we are still standing on a
battlefield, and our character,who's meant to represent all of
us is, you know, is superconfused now, like, here I am
(06:08):
melting on the floor because Iam afraid to, you know, kill
these worthy people. I think Imight break the world if I do
it. Right? That's what Arjunasaying. I have a con. My Dharma
says that I'm should never dowhat I'm being asked to do.
Right my my family dharma. Butthen, you know, then there's
(06:29):
this personal Dharma that I feelright. I want to uphold the
good. I want to make sure goodpeople are in charge of this
kingdom, but I cannot reconcileit with killing my grandfather,
who is to be revered, right? Sowe're back to this very
subjective world of Arjunahaving a, you know, complete
(06:53):
crisis of identity, everyone whoall the people that he's been up
until now in his life as amighty warrior just melted away.
Right he is. He's in a differentplace right now, and he's asking
a very real question that, look,Krishna, all this theoretical
(07:16):
knowledge that you just gave meabout the self, about how action
works, about meditation, right?
The importance of seeing thingswith objectivity. What does this
have to do with this war? Whatabout this situation? Why are
you, if all of this is true andthe Self exists in all people in
(07:38):
the same way, why are youengaging me to act in this
battle? Right, in this veryvisceral experience where blood
will be shed and, you know, verystrongly, decisive action will
be taken. Right? Arjun issaying, if you want me to go for
this goal of the self, thisrefined, you know, very quiet,
subtle part of my being. Thenlet's talk about going to the
(08:02):
monastery. Exactly, yeah, let'sget the hell out of here and go
and walk this other path thatleads to that goal. So you know
that that real world conflict,and I think the need for heart
in understanding the the wayeach of us comes to this
(08:24):
conflict on our own right, itmight not be, I think it would
be rare for the listeners hereto have had this crisis of
conscience happen on a on abattlefield, right, right,
especially this kind of abattlefield in real life,
although it very well could havehappened, right? Some of our
(08:46):
listeners could have beensoldiers and been in this
situation, right? But for manyof us, these, this sort of
doubting of our reality, feelingin conflict with our roles. And
identities versus ourphilosophies. The kind of thing
that makes you say Enough ofthis philosophy. Just tell me
(09:10):
what's the right thing to dowhen those moments come to us,
especially as women, they theywere going to look a little bit
different. You know, it mightcome at that 4am feeding, or
that one last diaper, or thatstudent in class who didn't want
to go home, right? We come intoconflict with our values, our
(09:33):
ethics and our philosophies indifferent ways at different
times in our lives. So I thinkrecognizing the core of this
first shloka as just a very realquestion that we've all asked in
different ways in our ownlanguages is a good way to
(09:54):
start.
And then we see also in three.
Too, with these contradictorywords, you were confusing me. I
think that's that's that to me,that right there is humility,
that he's only saying that he'sconfusing him. I think he's
doing more than confusing him,but he's trying to be respectful
(10:15):
and and have a little bit ofcontrol of his emotions at this
more moment. Tell me what is theone thing I need to do to reach
the highest goal. He's stillasking for this. Okay, I
understand all this, but let'sget to this, this higher goal.
And, you know, I can't evenimagine, although, I think even
(10:39):
though none of us, many of us,have not been in a realistic war
situation, we've certainly beenon battlefields. I know, having
worked in medicine, I was in thebattlefield almost every day,
there's always somethinghappening that you have to be
alert to and you have to be ableto act immediately without
(11:04):
really thinking. That's wherethe training comes in the
military or medicine or whateverwe're doing and but you know, if
you go back and you really lookat the wisdom that comes out of
some of these battles and someof these wars that we've been
in, I have to go back to theRevolutionary War, which in the
(11:30):
United States, which was a very,very difficult war, war in a lot
of ways, Because the troops werenot able to have a lot of the
equipment and the clothing toprotect them that they would
have needed. It was sort of aput together at the last minute
(11:50):
kind of war that, okay, let's,let's get into this. But the one
thing that that, that they didthere that really stayed with
me, and here again, I see feelit on the battlefield here,
there was a saying that came andsaid, don't shoot until you see
the whites of their eyes. Andever since I heard this as a
(12:14):
child, I've been cogitating andthinking about this. What? Why
would they say something likethat? What? What could that
possibly mean? And I realizedthat it brings the whole idea of
war back to a level of humanitythat you're actually seeing who
(12:34):
you're fighting. And I thinkwhat happened here with Arjuna,
that's exactly what happened. Ifhe had just gone out and started
shooting arrows in any way or atpeople, he may not have had the
emotional impact that he hadwhen he looked not just at the
(12:55):
whites of their eyes, but if whothey are, this is my grandsire,
this is my uncle, this is mycousin, and you it's very
difficult to shut that off. AndI think we talked about this
before in medicine, we're taughtnever to treat our family
(13:17):
because there's too muchattachment to it. There's too
much feelings, whether goodfeelings or not good feelings.
And I think this is what Arjunis coming up against, again, uh,
he's he's looking, he's seeing.
This is not, these are not theenemy as depicted. This is the
(13:42):
enemy that's also my kith andkin. This is also part of me. So
what do I do? And that's why hesays it in such frustration,
tell me what the one thing Ineed to do to reach the highest
goal is this? It that I have tokill my my family. So I think
(14:04):
this is something that'sperpetuated too. I know in
Christianity and Catholicism,especially, a lot of the saints
that were picked did some awfulthings. You know, King
wenceslaw, for instance, hekilled his whole family to get
in his position, and he wassainted because he brought more
(14:27):
people into the fold. So I thinkthere's this nothing is purely
good or purely bad in this kindof situation. And I think this
is what Arjun is going for, atleast, this is what I'm going
through. I read it, so I'massuming that he went through a
similar kind of thing.
And I want to get to that ideaof the kind of awakening that
(14:51):
comes out of war times in just amoment. Because, you know, we're
looking at some specific idea.
As in the Sanskrit verses here,which are fascinating, Krishna
is referring to this idea ofintelligence and knowledge by
using the word buddhi, right?
(15:13):
You may be familiar with this asthe intelligence, the wisdom
faculty, the buddhi that weutilize in meditation, right? So
in chapter two, Krishna spokevery specifically about the use
of the buddhi directing that ina way that one would be able to
(15:34):
see a higher good, right? Thisis kind of the internal work of
karma yoga that was outlined inchapter two. So when Arjuna says
that is that knowledge, is thisknowledge through the buddhi
better than karma, right actingin the world this way, he uses
(15:56):
the epithet for for Krishna,that is janar Dana, which says,
I am. It calls him the agitatorof men. You the agitator of men?
Tell me which one is better, orkarma, right? Then he goes on to
(16:17):
say, the why this terribleaction? Do you urge? Oh,
handsome haired one Keshava, oneof my favorite epithets of
Krishna, the one with thebeautiful hair, then picking up
in in verse two, he says, Yourspeech sounds equivocal, right?
(16:41):
You these words arecontradictory. You're confusing
me. What are you confusing?
You're confusing my buddhi Icannot make heads or tails of
what you're talking about. It'sgiving Moha confusion, right? We
know this idea of Moha confusionas being a pretty core obstacle
on the path of yoga, right? Whenthe mind is cloudy, I can't I
(17:03):
can't sort it out too muchinformation. I'm overwhelmed,
right? We might call this anoverwhelm. Surely tell me what
is the the highest good. And heuses the word here, Shreya
Shreyas is a higher good, asupreme good as which is a, I
(17:25):
think, a foreign idea toWesterners, that there's some
sort of higher standard thatthat our society is measured
against. Yeah, right. I think, Ithink, you know, Westerners, we
come from a place where we're,you know, we're certainly guided
(17:46):
by some sense of a manifestdestiny, like you said in the,
you know, looking at Americanhistory, which is so interesting
and so recent and so wellrecorded, to kind of give us a
sense of ideas in motion, in aspiritual sense, but this idea
of a higher good, a place whereall people are cared for, I
(18:12):
think we have to ask a couplequestions. What does Arjuna mean
by the Shreyas that he'sspeaking about, show me what is
the higher good, right? Becausehe's framing this in his own
terms, as a Kshatriya warrior interms of the Vedic Varna system,
right? That's where hisquestions coming from and where
(18:32):
his conflict is coming from.
Right? As modern readers, we'renot really measuring against a
standard of society laid out bythe Vedas. We're coming from a
different place when we look atthe idea of a higher good, what
does what would that mean?
Right? We, you know, we thinkabout ideas of universal
(18:56):
freedom, equality for all peopleright, our civil rights
movements, our women's rightsmovements are built on the idea
of striving for a higher good.
But I think it's a good time toacknowledge that the culture of
the Gita and the culture of ustoday, there is a disparity. So
(19:20):
another place where our we couldexperience Moha in the buddhi in
reading these verses. But Ithink it's, I think, as you
said, Nishtha, this core ideathat out of the confusion, out
of everything being tossed up inthe air, in a sense of
(19:41):
reconsideration, wars andcultural shifts that lead to
wars can often bring this abouton a personal level for
individuals and beget largermovements like wars. There's
like religious revivals, right,that lead to people questioning
(20:06):
their sense of values andbelonging in a in a more
spiritual sense, it's it'sfollowing the Vietnam War that
we have the growth of yoga inthe West, kind of explosion
where yoga Swamis and teachersand vocabulary and ideas and
(20:30):
postures, and, you know, it was,you know, following the Vietnam
War. So wars and cultural shiftsis another dimension. I think
that's very interesting toexplore here.
You know, I think if we didn'thave the emotional attachment
(20:51):
and looked at war from adistance and a maybe that's why
they're not including the bhaktiin here, I don't know, but we
could see really what you'resaying, and just moving that
even further in, it becomesalmost a purge. And from an
(21:14):
emotional and a humanitarianpoint of view, what I'm saying
is not so, but if you look at itfrom a different level, and like
a little bit like a moderate andnot, not a devastating, but a
moderate forest fire, it's thesame kind of thing. It happens
(21:34):
by itself. It gets all theunderbrush burned away so the
trees can then grow better andsustain and for a society, it
takes a long time to overcomeand to come back from a
situation like that, especiallysince historically, this is the
(21:58):
time when the men were wiped outof societies. They were not
left. It was only women, and wesee this in the end of the Gita
too, that it's the women thatare left, the women and children
to rebuild and to make a countrythat's hopefully better than the
one that they had before. Nowsometimes that doesn't happen.
(22:23):
Sometimes it's rebuilt in theway of the the conquerors. And
it's not a pleasant experience,but it's always a big change,
like you're talking about,sometimes a cultural shift that
comes in, a physical shift thatcomes in, something happens, and
even to the land itself. Youhave to understand that by
(22:47):
putting these land mines in, bybombing we're destroying Earth
itself in this so it's a verydestructive force from the
nature of the earth all the wayto nature of us and as a human
race. Yet it seems to have comefrom millenniums and millennials
(23:12):
and millenniums before this,1000s and 1000s of years it's
been going on. So there must besome purpose to it in the
evolutionary process, as webecome more and I would like to
air quote this, if I may,civilized, because that's always
(23:33):
a question in my mind. Are webecoming more civilized? But
some of us are moving away fromthis idea that we can actually
benefit by harming someone else,and once we get the concept that
all we're harming is ourselves,you know, I was thinking the
(23:54):
other day. I was I was lookingat a group of people that
monetarily, have very little.
And they were all sittingtogether, and they were telling
stories and joking and pattingeach other on the back and doing
all kinds of things. And then Ilooked over to group people that
were very affluent, and theywere very still and serious, and
(24:14):
I thought, what happens to us,all the the praying and the
hoping that we get monetarystability, and then we get
unhappy. We're not happy withit. So it's the same thing like
this with this war. How much canwe get? How much can we take?
Let me put it that way, andstill feel fulfilled, because
(24:37):
taking is not what makes usfulfilled, it's giving. So we're
in a big dungeon here,and this is, I think, an
important question to ask in ourrelationship with karma, is
giving and. And taking one, oneof the ways Mr. Ramaswamy
(25:03):
explained karma that sticks withme forever is, you know, our
relationship with naturePrakriti is, you know, explored
in depth in all yogaphilosophies. But he sort of
summarized that there's a pointwhere you're taking more than
your share. You're taking toomuch from nature, right? We all
(25:27):
this is a core idea in the Gita.
We're entitled to our work andto our labors and to this. And I
think what you're sayingreflected in the people who
don't have so much, there's anunderstanding that I'm not going
to get anything out of this. Butlook at this western culture
(25:49):
that, you know, many people arecoming to this idea for the
first time when they'reintroduced to yoga philosophy
and Buddhist philosophy. And,you know, Eastern thought that
there is some place of takingtoo much, of taking beyond your
share. It goes completelyagainst everything that the
(26:10):
American Dream is built on, andthe sort of Western ideal this,
you know, underlying myth ofperpetual growth that we've been
fed by our our culturalparadigm, right? We we can
understand intellectually thatit's not sustainable. You can't
(26:31):
just keep growing and, you know,bubbling and leaps and bounds,
like what we see in our globalbusiness world. We see companies
that you never heard of, and allof a sudden it's a gazillion
dollar business. Yeah, right. Ijust saw that the documentary on
Twitter. So interesting, rightout of an idea spawns a giant
(26:56):
cultural change, and, you know,the the money, right? But at the
same time, you know what, what'swhere? Where's the balance in
any of this like this is whatwe're accustomed to seeing,
ginormous explosions of growthand wealth, and often lose sight
(27:21):
of the quality of life that isreally what we're looking for,
you know, to be happy andhealthy and feel safe and loved,
feel a sense of respect and thatour contributions are valuable,
right Not to make a milliondollars or to become famous,
(27:43):
like so many children aregrowing up today, with the goal
of becoming famous on socialmedia, which is, again, it's
about a million miles away Fromthis battlefield in antiquity.
But the same ideas of learningto balance one's self in the
(28:07):
world one's contribution withthe reciprocation with what
we're receiving back. I alsowanted to pick up that idea that
you know, often out of these wartimes like you, like you
(28:28):
mentioned at the end of thiswar, it whose left is women and
children and men you know, torebuild a society. And I think
if we look at religious orspiritual thought in terms of
its relationship to wars, we canbuild a kind of interesting
(28:49):
story that new ideas spreadingamong women post war, taking
lots of many seeds sproutingover time, right? Becoming more
institutionalized, moreconservative, growing into
(29:11):
greater patriarchal structures,right? But just look at you
brought up the RevolutionaryWar. I mean, before that, the
United States was largely madeof Calvinists, very conservative
religious sects. And after theRevolutionary War, a whole new
diversity starts to grow. Andthen after the subsequent wars
(29:35):
in the Civil War, in particular,a huge explosion in Quakers the
Theosophists, started makingtheir way to the West Coast. I
don't know if you've ever heardof a wonderful woman named
Catherine Tingley. I've alwaysbeen a huge fan. She writes very
(29:59):
much from the heart. Heart, andshe had her spiritual awakening
on the battlefield in the CivilWar as a nurse, caring for
caring for all of the wounded.
And she was a daughter of awealthy family, and out of her
experience on the battlefield,she made her way west to
(30:19):
California. She followed thatAmerican sense of hopefulness
and utopianism to the WestCoast, and became a very
integral part of the founding ofthe Point Loma branch of the
Theosophical Society, and she'ssometimes credited as bringing
(30:41):
the avocado to California.
Oh, interesting, interesting.
Yes, where did she bring it fromMexico? Oh, okay, okay, that's,
that's great. That's a greatstory. Yeah, you know, I think
that sometimes we confuse. Andif we look at you, mentioned two
(31:05):
different, very different wars,mentioned a revolutionary in the
civil and I think that thereasons for each were very
different, why they were fought,and because of the morality
issue and the humanity issue ofthe Civil War, that, to me, is
(31:29):
why all these others grew up,the Philosophical Society, et
cetera, whereas theRevolutionary War was A very
different war. It was breakingoff from England and for our
independence. So the flavor ofthe war lasts till afterwards,
so that so when we start toreconstruct after something has
(31:54):
been destroyed, hopefully, thereason that that was fought is
part of the reconstruction. Sothis was because everybody
should be seen as a human. Nohuman should be seen as partial
as it was during the Civil War.
(32:19):
And so to me, it would be verylogical for these very
humanistic, spiritual paths andgroups to come forward like what
went on during the Civil War,the the underground railroads
and the All the getting slavesout, etc, etc. It almost forced
(32:43):
people into a morality that theyin everyday life they may not
have appreciated, but because itwas such a catastrophic
experience, fought in on theland where people actually
lived. I think there was a bigchange in it from that. And so I
(33:07):
have to I those are the ones I'mfamiliar with. And you talk
about heroes like the CrimeanWar, my hero was Florence
Nightingale, being a medicalperson that, and through that,
the what she saw was broughtnightmares, but in it, she had
(33:27):
the ability, and I think this iswhat we're getting at here in
the Gita. I'm hoping that's whatwe're getting at through this
awfulness of men screaming inpain, rotting in their own beds,
etc. She just took the simplestthings and she said, How can I
(33:49):
make them a little morecomfortable? How can I make this
a little more human? Maybe byputting a bell beside their bed
so they don't have to screamout. They can ring it if they
need us, washing them just thesimplest thing she thought of
(34:10):
that changed everything stilltoday. This is what used, not
the little bell anymore. Theyhave much sophisticated bells to
ring, but this was her way ofmaking this war, this horrendous
experience, human. And I thinkthat's what the spirituality is,
(34:34):
to find some kind of humannessand spirituality in even the
worst,strong, strong image and strong
reality of the gitas teachings.
Because really, in each chapter,we are brought back to the
battlefield and have to confrontthe you know, the setting of the
(34:59):
story. As we encounter everincreasingly refined spiritual
philosophy that's also containedright next to a very violent
situation. So I think the timeto reframe the situation and
(35:19):
consider what does that mean toyou today? What does that mean
to us today, to serve a highergood? The idea of Shreya, right?
We're talking about a way that aserving serving a higher good,
(35:41):
something that's beyond apersonal need. It's to help keep
society healthy. And you know, IIt's one of the things I really
love about reading theespecially the the ancient
Sanskrit prayers on peace. And Isee this addressing of the
(36:07):
higher good all the time. Andthat idea that May all beings be
well, may loka samasta, sukinobhavantu, May everyone
everywhere be happy and free. Imean, what a beautiful statement
of the higher good, right? It'sit goes the Upanishads speak of
(36:30):
this, the kata Upanishadbeautifully speaks of Shreya,
the higher good, in terms of acontrast, what is good and what
is prayer, what is gratifying tothe individual? Right? Yama, the
god of death, asks the studentto contemplate knowing the
(36:52):
difference between Shreya, thehighest good, and prayer, the
personal want, right, right?
Something that's gratifying tothe ego. These are important.
This is where the discernmentlies. This is where we are able
to tell whether you're takingmore than your share, whether
you're taking too much fromproperty. And the scales become
(37:15):
unbalanced. And I asked myselfthis question all the time, is
this good, or is it gratifying?
Is it Shreya, or is it Praya?
And so the tradition asks usthis and gives us these
examples, these beautifulprayers, and you know, to think
(37:36):
of something like the Mangalamantra that speaks of, you know,
a time far before our currenthistory, where the this very
honest wish for the welfare ofall says, may our leaders not be
corrupt. May they please followthe path that's best for all of
(37:59):
the people, right? We get thisidea that the struggles that we
are struggling with today arethe same struggles that our
spiritual ancestors east andwest have struggled with, right?
The all of the people on theprecipice of war, whether that's
the Civil War, the RevolutionaryWar, the Crimean War, or this
(38:21):
battle of kruschettra in ancienthistory. Throughout history,
these wars, seemingly werefought because of maintaining
the higher good, right? That'sbeen a rationalization for war,
exactly, yeah, and at the sametime the rationalization for the
(38:42):
rebuilding afterward. So I thinkthis just really invites us to
to think about these ideas, notas like just one single answer
or one single way ofunderstanding the concept of
Shreya, or that word, we can't Ithink that's what I love so much
(39:06):
about Sanskrit, is you can't putit in a tiny box and say that
you just understand it. Itrequires going over it and
taking it up in your mind andthinking about the way you think
about it. And how do you picturethat higher good? Nishthala, how
do you serve that higher good?
(39:29):
I do my best, you know? I try totake a step back when something
happens. I think I was talkingto someone yesterday, the other
day, and this is don't just dosomething. Stand there. Observe
First, take a moment to look atthe whole situation and even the
(39:52):
teacher I know, having beenunder the tutelage of a yoga
master for so long. Most, I haveto say, most of what I felt, how
he taught was irrational attimes, and did I always do it?
No, because sometimes my minddidn't agree with it, and and
(40:20):
then sometimes I did, because Icould go, I stopped enough like
just what you're saying, Kamala,I stopped enough to to look at
it and say, My I feel like hehas the greater good in his
consciousness. And I'm going togo with it, even if I don't
(40:40):
understand it. But I think wehave to be very careful, because
we have to purify ourselvesenough to know if this is
something that's going toelevate us and it is for the
greater good or not, and untilthat purification happens.
(41:02):
Sometimes we have to trust ateacher that they know. So we
have to be very careful how wechoose a teacher. And when you
were talking about these ancientprayers and slokas, one of my
favorite that that I've doneevery morning for no matter how
many years ends in MA, VID,Visha, vahaee. And this is
(41:29):
translated in a very fewdifferent ways, but one of the
ways it was translated is you'retalking to the teacher. This is,
this is a dialog between you andyour teacher, it can be an
external teacher. It can be aninternal teacher. But what
you're saying is, may we harborno ill feelings toward each
(41:53):
other. And I could never figureout why this would be there. But
when I read the Gita, it makessense the teacher is pushing you
to do something that you can'tsee the bigger picture of, and
you may start to resent it. Iknow people do, and they get
(42:16):
angry then at the teacher who'strying to move us forward. So
this chant is saying to us, thissloka is saying to us, don't
cherish any ill feelings towardeach other. There's a high like
you're talking about. There's ahigher purpose for all of this.
(42:37):
Have trust, a matter of fact,and then it could also mean your
fellow UPA gurus, your littlegurus that are all around you.
Actually, when we did this, wechanted that last line three
times for emphasis, to make surethat we knew what it was about
(42:59):
and to develop more of thistrust that they are taking us in
the direction, and it could beour own heart that's taking us
in the direction that we don'teven follow. It's a way to trust
and what a what a great thoughtto end on. Sahana vavatu,
sahanau, bhunaku, sahavir,yankar, may we cherish
(43:38):
no ill feelings toward anyoneI'll just, I just want to say
before I turn on my computerevery morning, I chant this,
right? I I have a I see mycomputer screen and the zoom as
a way of being together withother people, and, you know,
really connecting throughthrough through the internet,
(44:00):
with people I've never metbefore. And to me, that's,
that's where I've got thattogetherness, that it's very,
it's a very hopeful thing. AndI, you know, I've, I've prayed
this prayer for so many yearsalso, and taken so much meaning,
and I feel like you know it atthis stage in my life, and it's
(44:22):
you know, it has a specialmeaning that I meet people like
you and like our listeners bycoming together here in podcast
land. So thanks for joining ustoday, everybody. That was a
nice way for me to wrap it up.
And we thank you all so much formaking time to listen to our
(44:44):
dialogs. We'll look forward toseeing you next time.
Namaste. Namaste. You.
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