March 16, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of A Woman's Gita, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose delve into the profound concepts of dharma and karma as presented in the Bhagavad Gita. They explore how these ancient yogic principles can guide us on a transformative journey of spiritual growth and self-realization.
Through an insightful discussion of key verses from the Gita, the hosts shed light on the importance of consistent spiritual practice, overcoming fear and doubt, and cultivating humility on the path of yoga. They also address the unique challenges faced by modern yoga practitioners, including navigating the evolving landscape of the yoga community.
Topics in this episode:
- The power of consistent spiritual practice and its transformative effects
- Overcoming fear and doubt on the spiritual path
- The role of humility and avoiding the pitfall of spiritual pride
- Navigating the modern yoga community and its evolving landscape
- The significance of dharma and karma in the Bhagavad Gita
Whether you are a seasoned practitioner or new to the Gita, this episode offers valuable insights that can deepen your understanding of the timeless wisdom contained within this revered text. Join Nischala and Kamala as they guide you through the transformative journey of the Gita.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lilavati Eberle (00:02):
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy Devi and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:42):
Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita. I'm
Nishchala Joy Devi, and I'mKamala rose, and we'd like to
welcome you back, or if this isyour first time, welcome today,
we're going to move into sloka240 we're still in the second
(01:02):
chapter, and we're moving alittle bit into a different
aspect today. So let's beginwith 240 no effort in practice
is ever lost, nor are thereoutcomes negative, even a little
(01:23):
spiritual practice protects onefrom fear.
Kamala Rose (01:29):
Yes, a very important shloka for yogis and
for all who read the Gita in theoriginal Sanskrit Neha B karma,
st, pratya, pratya, vayo na,videota, svalpam, apyasya,
(01:50):
dharmasya, triath, Mahato,bhayata, right? There's again,
there's so much to unpack here.
You heard the word dharma,dharmasya. You heard the word
karma, right? Which we know thisis, this is the idea of
undertaking an effort, right? Sono effort is lost in the
(02:13):
practice of yoga, and never arethe outcomes negative. There's
no going back right. We mighteven call this backsliding
right. In a in a religiouscontext, there's no going back
right. Any effort that's made isalways going to have a positive
(02:34):
result, right? Even a little bitof this discipline. Krishna uses
the word dharmasya to describethis discipline when he says we
would read it as even a littlebit of the practice of yoga. He
uses the word dharma for yogahere protects one from fear or
(02:55):
danger. Bhaya. So lots to unpackhere, lots to talk about in
truly what is one of the mostinspiring verses for all of us
as yogis who come to practiceevery day, roll out our mats or
(03:16):
meditation cushions, and we showup for ourselves, it's inspiring
to know that this effort isnever wasted, right? Even if,
even if there are interruptionsin practice, that effort is
never wasted, and any effortthat we put into the practice of
(03:37):
yoga will always come to a goodresult, because it is for
because its aim, its goal, isthe realization of the
transcendent aspect of oneself,the Atman. All roads lead to the
Atman.
Nischala Joy Devi (03:57):
I think this is particularly poignant in
that, in the beginning ofpractice, at least, and
sometimes in the middle andtowards wherever we're going.
But people have doubt, and Ithink this is something that
really helps. And they say, youknow, all I can do is five
(04:19):
minutes a day of meditation, andthey'll come up to you and
they'll say, is that enough? Andas teachers, I think we're put
in a very interesting positionwith that, because is it enough
for what right? Is it enough toget realize Self Realization?
Probably not. But is it enoughto calm down a fearful or
(04:44):
tumultuous mind that it may helpso I think when we we look at
this and we see that nothing islost, that everything that you
do, every effort that you make,you. Gets, gets you some some
level of the peace that we'reseeking, some level, even if
(05:07):
it's a little bit or justtransient, is something that
comes so I think this issomething that's that's very
important, and some of thequestions I get asked a lot, and
then we look at this word fear,if anything stops us from our
own realization, or even in theworldly sense, from getting that
(05:31):
job that you want, from gettinginto the school you want, from
doing whatever you're thinking,what stops most people is Fear,
which is the most primal of allemotions, and to have a way to
quell this, this fear, or herethey, even, you say, protects us
(05:53):
from the fear, is somethingthat, in my Mind, we would all
be rushing to do, if anythingcan help that. And there's
probably one of my favoritesayings that I use all the time,
and those of people who know meknow that and that. When I
(06:15):
remember when we were littlenovices, and our teacher was
talking to us about fear, hesaid, The only thing that will
stop you, the only real obstaclebetween you and what your desire
of self realization is, is fear.
It will stop you because themind will show you parts of it
(06:36):
that you don't want to see, butyou have to face those parts,
because it's also part of themind's expression. So this is
something you could use, even asa mantra, and that is Kas chit
dirajas Chit dira. It means veryfew are that courageous, and
(06:59):
what it says, what it doesn'tsay, but it's underlined to move
into a spiritual practice, tomove on to a spiritual path that
very few tread, and as we'retold, very few continue because
of this fear. So here we'rebeing promised
Unknown (07:26):
that the fear can be at least calmed to a certain point.
Kamala Rose (07:33):
Well, I think you're very right to zoom in on
that word bahaya and addressthis idea of of what is the this
fear that we're talking about?
Certainly, when we engage inspiritual practice, we're moving
into the unknown and to theunknown parts of ourselves. We,
you know, especially early on,we have no idea, and can be very
(07:58):
pessimistic and think that I'mgonna find horrible things in my
subconscious that I'll have todeal with in the process of
meditation and purification. Andnot to say that there, you know,
there aren't some skeletons inthe closet for all of us, but I
think, I think the fear issimply of what's unknown, the
(08:19):
unknown of who you are and theresponsibility that comes from
becoming who you are can bescary. I mean, you and I both
know as monastics, there's anawful lot we gave up to focus on
the realization of this realself, you know. But I think for
(08:40):
many of our readers, many of thepeople who are listening to this
podcast who would never become amonastic and are aren't really
looking at the fear of leavingsomething behind to start
something that they don't fullyunderstand as as we did, um, I
think the idea of of who youare, it can be, it can be, you
(09:07):
know, cast a certain doubt. Andit does take, as you so rightly,
brought in that teaching fromthe katha, Upanishad, kachit
diraha, that very few are thatcourageous to follow the path
that leads them to who theyreally are, to that very
(09:27):
authentic sense of dharma,right? Because we are talking
about a Dharma that is in theworld, a way of living one's
yoga. And I think that sometimesthat's, you know, we're going to
confront the parts of ourselvesthat are yet unpurified Or that
you don't know yet you've you'venot really confronted. I spoke
(09:50):
to a yoga teacher earlier thisweek who is terrified of
standing in front of the classand. Speaking in front of
people, and it keeps her fromteaching yoga. This might be
true with some of our listeners,that they're, you know, there's,
there's some of the skillsinvolved in being a yoga teacher
(10:10):
that they feel are way outsideof their skill set. You know, I
can speak personally that evendoing this podcast, is filled
with a lot of anxiety and fearabout being so public, from
being in such a shelteredenvironment as the monastery.
Right teaching publicly is, youknow, is a new territory. So I
(10:35):
think we're talking about thatfear of what you haven't done
yet, and the fear of of becomingoneself, right, expressing
oneself and expressing thosedharmic impulses that live in
each of our hearts, I think thisis extremely relevant To the
subject here of karma yoga,right? And you know, just to
(11:01):
link that into the practice ofmeditation and the realization
of the Atman and everything thatwe're really talking about here
in the Gita, that what, what isthe practice? It is the practice
of meditation, of buddhi, of ofyoking, the buddhi or, let's
say, seeing through one's wisdomfaculty a bigger picture serve,
(11:26):
serving a greater whole thanone's solely personal right,
wants and desires, And movinginto a larger sphere, which is
full of unknowns. So this ideaof practice protecting us from
that those fears, I think, is soempowering because it because we
(11:53):
gain experience in doing it. Wegain experience to learn that,
that the things that we had tobe afraid of are not real,
right? They're just doubts madeinto something maybe larger than
what they are. And to rememberthat very few are so courageous
as to walk the path of, let'ssay, a radical authenticity,
(12:19):
right, a radical expression ofwho you are. Very few are that
brave in the world to put otherthings aside, cultural
expectations, friends andfamily's expectations of you to
do what you feel to be authenticso a very empowering shloka
(12:41):
indeed.
Nischala Joy Devi (12:47):
Sometimes people come to me and they they
say, I love what? I love thesepractices. I love the
meditation. But I'm so afraidthat if I continue this, I won't
want to be with my familyanymore. This is something that
I hear over and over and overagain, and it said, I think it's
(13:11):
a lot of the integration that wespoke about last time, that the
ability to be in the world, butnot of it, and when the world is
pulling so strongly in thatdirection, many people find it
difficult, and they say the fearof it being in meditation and
(13:34):
getting lost, that's somethingelse people talk about. And I
say there's nowhere to get lost.
There's only one path. There'sno lost you're just going into
this higher consciousness. So Ithink, I think the society that
we live in also has aresponsibility. It seems to be
causing a lot of fear forpeople, and if we can just begin
(13:55):
to name it and eliminate some ofthe obvious ones, that when we
get to this deep spiritual well,that instead of feeling any
fear, there's awe, there's Wow.
(14:17):
Let's go for this and well, letme see how it transforms me. Let
me see what I do. I mean, a lotof women will come to me and
they'll say, I don't want sexanymore, and my husband's very
upset, or my partner is veryupset. And this is just the
normal moving away from thephysical. It's not an intent.
(14:41):
It's not something that we say,Oh, this is what I'm going to
do, unless you're following thatparticular path. So this whole
idea is really of fear. I cansee how it stops people from
doing something. You need tofeel it and just go for it
anyway, because it's. Otherwiseyou'll be staying in one place.
(15:03):
A very funny incident happenedto me on an airplane some years
ago that refers exactly to this,and this man was sitting next to
me, and it was still the dayswhen they served meals, and they
would yell out on the plane, whogot the vegetarian meal, you
(15:23):
know? And I would kind of cowera little bit and raise my hand,
and it's me. And so he looks atme, and he says, Oh, you're a
vegetarian, huh? And he said, Isaid, Yes. He said, Oh, I used
to be a vegetarian. I said, Oh,that's interesting. And try to
eat my meal. And then he reachesunder his seat, and he pulls out
(15:43):
a brown paper bag, pull pulls itback a little bit, unscrews
something, takes a drink, anddoes the reverse and puts it
back under his seat. And Ididn't say anything, and it just
looked and he said, Yep, I used,I used to do all those spiritual
practices. I said, whathappened? And he said, I got
(16:06):
scared. And he said, instead ofgoing toward the spirit, I now
have spirit in a bottle. Hesaid, But you're inspiring me to
go back. He said, I was afraidthat I would lose everything,
and I'm thinking to myself,actually, you gain everything.
(16:26):
You don't lose anything you'readding. In the Bible doesn't
this say that seek ye first thekingdom of heaven, and then all
else will be added unto you,right? I mean, that's a promise,
isn't it?
Kamala Rose (16:45):
Absolutely, yeah.
And I remember the story of how,how terrified many of those
fishermen were when Jesus calledthem to follow him. Leave this
he said, leave this behind.
Follow me. I am the Way, theTruth in the light and but
those, I mean, those traditionalgenerational fishermen were
(17:07):
terrified to leave the securityof the boat and the net and what
they knew their whole life so
Nischala Joy Devi (17:13):
Exactly. And that's and I think that we need
to listen to some of the thecolonels, the the kernels of
teaching that probably we don'tneed all of the rest of it, but
to hear something like that,Seek ye first the kingdom, and
then everything will be addedunto you. Yogananda said
(17:34):
something similar. He said,Don't come in the winter of your
life. If you haven't come in thespringtime. And what he was
trying to say is it's so muchharder to come in the winter,
because you're already set inyour ways. You already have this
huge life. So this this fear, isa big thing. It's a big thing in
(17:58):
medicine, it was a big thing. Iwould say to somebody, why
didn't you come in before? Whydid you let it get to this
point? And what would they say?
I was afraid. I was afraid tohear what it might be. I was
afraid of the pain. So this fearis really something that I think
the yoga practices addressdirectly, and that's the power
(18:23):
of them.
Kamala Rose (18:29):
I We can read it on so many levels too. We have the
personal fears that are commonto every human being we've
talked I think these are allgreat examples that we've been
discussing. I think thattraditionally, in terms of those
(18:49):
early yoga practitioners, whichyou know, are at this time of
the Gita, we're looking also atthe the idea of of samsara, or
the the wheel of being bound toour karma eternally, yes, right?
(19:10):
This idea of of no escape fromthe wheel of reincarnation,
right? And this is, this isreally the purpose of yoga is to
free us from that wheel ofreincarnation, of samsara. And
so, you know, in this context,we can also read into those
(19:31):
spiritual dangers, right? Thatare we? We hear very commonly in
in religion, the spiritualdanger of pride, right? The
spiritual danger of wrong views,of misplaced efforts, right?
These things can really get inour way. We can misperceive the
(19:54):
spiritual. I think again, evenon this level, we're looking
that Yoga itself. Is a Mokshapractice, a liberatory practice
aimed at releasing us from thewheel of reincarnation. And it
is the practice by showing up,doing practice, by meditating
(20:17):
and looking deeply into our eachof us, our personal nature, we
can buy this path overcome whatare the spiritual dangers, such
as pride, wrong effort, wrongviews, right, misperceptions of
the goal that are inevitable onthe path, right? We like to make
(20:41):
it so much easier, or so muchmore self serving than what it
really is in truth, we on the onthis path of knowing who we are,
we will overcome thesesignificant, let's say,
brigands, that block the paththese misunderstandings of wrong
(21:03):
perception. And we come back tothe first part of the shloka
that no effort in thesepractices is ever lost and never
are their outcomes. NegativeYoga itself is in the tradition,
is, is seen as a non bindingaction, right? So when we come
(21:26):
to practice, whether we'recoming to practice and
practicing Asana meditation,there's these are non binding
actions, right? They're they'renot going to attach us to the
wheel of reincarnation anymore.
In fact, they're going to helpliberate us. So even if there is
an interruption in practice fora period of time, and you come
(21:47):
back and you sit down and yousay, Wow, that last two weeks
was crazy. I did not have timeto meditate once. And now, here
I am. It's difficult, but it theeffort is not lost, right? You
very quickly come back to aremembered, almost physical and
mental sense of the practice ofconcentration, of meditation,
(22:13):
and that sense of being calledthe self.
Nischala Joy Devi (22:23):
I think time also plays a part in this. If
it's two weeks, you may be ableto regain it, because if you
have had a steady practicebefore, but if you meditated
once two years ago, and you sitdown again, chances are not a
(22:45):
whole lot is going to happenwith it. The we talked about
this, the the water needs tosink into the roots of the plant
before you move it. So I thinkon one hand, we have to be
encouraging, but on the otherhand, there has to be also some
realism in this. There's acertain level of practice to get
(23:08):
to and a certain depth of levelto practice to get to before we
can take take it to the nextlevel, or play it forward, or
however you want to say it. Andso again, how? What do you want
out of this? I think this is animportant question we have to
(23:30):
keep asking ourselves, why arewe doing this? Are we doing this
because our back hurt and wewant to make it feel better, and
that's a totally valid reasonfor doing something, but if you
really want to go to that, takeyourself to that place that's
beyond the comprehension of thehuman mind, to a place of
(23:54):
absolute peace. It's a verydifferent level of practice that
we're talking about here, one ofthe ops, one of the issues when
you were talking Kamala,especially about pride, I always
go back to and also in the YogaSutras, I see this a lot too.
(24:17):
They keep warning us not tothink you're more evolved than
you actually are. And I think wesee this a lot. We have kind of
the yoga teacher aura, or ideaof how you walk in a room and
you're there's a certain way youare, which is fine, that's just,
(24:40):
that's just part of thepeacefulness. But when you start
to think that you're moreevolved than everybody else, I
think that's where we get into alittle bit of issue. And I this
is where it's talking here theprotection, the word it protects
us. I think, I'm not sure mostpeople think about it like that,
(25:04):
but this is a power. Ifsomething can protect us like
that, that's that's a power, butwe can't fight it with thinking
that we're more evolved than weare. The same tradition has a
wonderful phrase for this. Isone of my another one of my
favorite things, if someone actslike that, they call it, they
(25:25):
stink of enlightenment. To me,that's just so powerful,
stinking of enlightenment, ifyou just stop and listen to the
words put together. But the ideais that the more evolved you
get, the more humble you get,because you're seeing the awe of
(25:49):
the Divine Spirit, and thatmakes you humble. It's like
standing in in Montana or aplace where the sky is so big
and you feel so insignificant,yet a part of the whole and a
part of the greatness. To me,that's really what this is
saying here. No effort inpractice is law is ever lost,
(26:14):
nor are the outcomes negative.
That's the other thing peoplecome and worry about. Well,
suppose I'm doing it wrong, andit's gonna, instead of bringing
me peace, it'll bring me moretumult. No, no, it only it's a
one way street. It doesn't gotwo ways with with spiritual
practice. It only takes you inthe positive. And that's why I
(26:36):
think we can need a continuationof teachers, and I know there's
a lot of teachers out there thatwe're speaking to, it's our
responsibility to help peopleunderstand what it really means.
And the longer you've beenpracticing, the longer each of
us understands it, and then wecan then pass it on to the next,
(26:58):
who then understand it andcontinue the tradition,
Kamala Rose (27:05):
I think you're so right to emphasize that that
important obstacle of pride andthinking yourself far beyond
where you are, and I Think Ithink that humility is certainly
so important, but difficult. Youknow, it's difficult to, you
(27:28):
know, not congratulate yourselffor the great job you're doing.
And doesn't that just enable youto bypass so many things? Right?
You lose so much of the of thegrit and the grist for the mill
when you see yourself above andbeyond the you know the things
(27:48):
that every ordinary human beingdeals with right when we are
able to see through our ownsense of pride, we're better
able to help people andunderstand everyone has at some
point that sense of seeingthemselves beyond where they are
for 100 different reasons. Andyou know, this is a serious
(28:11):
obstacle, especially in the yogaworld today, right? We we've
seen so many teachers take anincredible fall because they've
positioned themselves to be farbeyond, almost inaccessible, so
self realized that they'rebeyond any fault whatsoever. And
(28:33):
so when someone raises anargument to say, except my
experience was this way I felthurt and offended and excluded.
All of these very realexperiences of students calling
on someone who's presentingthemselves as spiritually
(28:56):
evolved, right? There can be areal disconnect. And you know,
this is something that'scharacterized the last decade in
the yoga community. Is a kind ofreckoning of what kinds of
teachers are we looking for,what kinds of students do we
want to be, and how can we carefor these yogic teachings in the
(29:19):
modern world, when we are we areheld in the container of
capitalism, right? And everyonehas to make $1 off of it. And
right, there's, there's a lotof, there's a lot of discussion,
I believe, to be had here in ourcommunities, about about proper
(29:42):
relationships, proper mentoring,a right student's attitude and
space to be able to honestlydiscuss without the traditional
hierarchies that have kept usbound. Right, right? Capitalism
itself is its own hierarchybetween, you know, from the rich
(30:05):
at the top to the poor on thebottom. And truly, patriarchy
itself is that ultimatehierarchy where we place some
men on a high pedestal while,you know, often the rest of us
are, you know, left wanting atthe bottom, I see that the yoga
(30:26):
community is in that kind of areckoning today where we, you
know, enough people, haveseriously studied the yogic
teachings to the degree that Ithink we can unravel some of
these power dynamics. I think wecan, we can discuss them
together. I think we can holdeach other accountable for, you
(30:51):
know, for our teaching, for ourchoices, and we can better learn
how to work with our students ina way that doesn't always you
don't always have to be in thatsort of a dominant and
submissive power dynamic. Ithink Westerners in all of our
(31:13):
capitalist societies arenaturals at that right. We fall
right into a submissive role inthe teaching relationship and
for 100 different reasons, rightfor women who have been under
patriarchy for so manycenturies, so many millennia,
(31:33):
you know, not knowing how to actAs an individual, empowered,
mentally alert human being with,you know, who? Who gives
themself the respect of havingher own agency? Yeah, right, so,
Nischala Joy Devi (31:49):
but how does it come in? Because I, and I
agree with everything you justsaid. It's just, I'm also
looking at the other side as ateacher, because what is
happening also as the like,there was no question for me as
a student with a guru, he wasthe last word that was it,
(32:11):
period, and being who I was, Ikind of questioned, which got me
in a lot of trouble. But I guessthe question that comes to me as
a teacher in this time and inthis modern time is there also
has to be a respect for theteacher, which I'm seeing is not
(32:37):
happening. There's either anadoration or who do you think
you are teaching me this? Whatdo you know? And I think there
has to, because we're not taughtto respect teachers as a whole
in our society, as we as manyother cultures are, then it
(32:58):
bleeds in, and if the yogateacher just acts like a friend
or a pal, which some of them, doyou miss that student, teacher
relationship? So I think this isvery tricky right now, as we're
switching paradigms, we have tobe careful to not get that
(33:21):
teacher student relationshipthrown out with it, because if
we do, everything is lost.
Because if we don't learn fromthose who have been practicing
longer, and we think we caninvent everything, that's a
whole other obstacle that we'retalking of pride. People say,
Oh, why? I just changed thisasana. I said, after this many
(33:44):
1000s of years, you're changingthe asana. Tell me, why? What?
What is it? Is it because ourmodern bodies can't do what they
did 5000 years ago? So there's,there's a, it's as usual. Here
we go again. It's the razor'sedge. It's the ability to make
(34:04):
that determination and havesomeone as your student. And can
they also be your friend? Ithink this is the the part. And
can you can wreck somebodywithout them being offended,
because that's your job. If yousee someone hunched over in
(34:26):
meditation and you go over andcorrect their posture, that's
what you're supposed to bedoing. There's no offense in
that. Do you? So I think it's itgets muddy, is what I'm saying.
There's a muddiness thathappens. I
Kamala Rose (34:41):
completely agree, and I think that's why dialog is
the best option. Dialog withinthose within the community, of
those who are very serious aboutthis, I think that, you know,
we've seen, we've seen the way,let's say traditional lineages.
Have been received in the UnitedStates. It's almost like, you
(35:05):
know, the worship and thereverence is so it's just almost
over the top religious rightand, and I don't know if that
was well thought out in advance,to say I respect this asana
teacher, for example, as anembodiment of the Divine. I
(35:25):
don't know if that studentnecessarily processed it that
way, but that respect just getskind of it goes from respect, as
you said, to adoration. It'slarger than life. And when
something happens and thatteacher acts like a human being,
the student is shocked. Howcould it be that they're how do
they eat? They you know, theyget grumpy when they're hungry.
(35:48):
I don't understand. They'resupposed to be perfect. I think
we're missing a lot of nuance inthere. And you know, this is
exactly the point of discussionis, how can we hold our teachers
ourselves being teachers? Whowould, you know, who aspire to
be taken seriously in the workwe do? You know, we're serious
(36:09):
people. We're teaching a serioussubject. There's not many people
who can, right? So we're, we'rein that position, but you know
also to to not be so, you know,to help our students not build
pedestals all the time. And itis, it is a razor's edge, and I
(36:35):
think it's one of the importantdialogs that we're having in the
yoga community. Today I'll justread that verse from the
Upanishads that you referenced.
This is from the also from thekata Upanishad. I'm in chapter
three, verse 14, arise, awake.
Pay attention when you'veobtained your wishes. A razor's
(37:00):
edge is hard to cross, that thepoets say is the difficulty of
the path,
Nischala Joy Devi (37:07):
yeah. And if you look at what a razor is,
it's actually fascinating. Ifyou look at it under a
magnification, there is a flatedge to it, and then it slopes
down on either side, but thatflat edge is so narrow a little
slip one way or another, anyonewho's ever shaved with one would
(37:28):
know that you cut yourself, andthat's what happens, and that's
what happens with this whenpeople go off or a little bit
this way or a little bit thisway, and I think that's why, As
monks, there's no, there's not alot of variation. I wore the
same thing every day. I ate thesame thing every day. I did the
same prayers. Every day I didthe same mass, and as every day,
(37:51):
everything was the same. It waslike Groundhogs Day. If you ever
saw that movie where you get upevery day is the same thing and
you get to do it over again, isthe good news, and you get to
make it better. And I think so,that's the thing. It just takes
away all the distractions. Butmost people don't have that.
(38:14):
They have the distractions, theconstant distractions. There was
one of our monks, he would sayabout distractions. He was very
funny. He say, I love to havedistractions like noise or
something like that during mymeditation. He said it gives me
something to meditate against.
And I thought that was a veryinteresting observation that he
had like that. So there's that,there's knowing who you are. So
(38:41):
when the student says to you,you are the most wonderful
person, I can't believe howextraordinary you are. You think
to yourself, yeah, I'm that too,but I'm also this, and I'm also
this, and I think to just acceptit, or look at them and say,
(39:04):
we're both like that. The lightis in both of us, but then you
get the other side too. I havestudents to say, Well, how do
you know? What do you what doyou know about this? I said,
Well, I've just been studyingfor a long time, also getting
the direct knowledge. But weshouldn't have to go through
that. We're there. We'representing something. Take it or
(39:28):
not. It's like a buffet. Theydon't stand over you in a buffet
and say, try some of this. Trysome of that. You just take what
you like, and if you don't likeit, don't go back for seconds.
But the respect, I think, for ateacher, is very important from
the student, but the teachershould know where, where that
(39:49):
energy is coming from.
Kamala Rose (39:54):
Yeah, yes, from and from and from. The experience
with all of our teachers. Whohave shared that and that those
like those similarly don't haveto be perfect to be to be able
to teach the inspired wisdom ofyoga
Nischala Joy Devi (40:13):
if you wish for yourself to be perfect, we
wouldn't have any teachers.
Nothing's
Kamala Rose (40:17):
gonna it might never happen, right? The world
might just continue to getnuttier and nuttier. How about
if we conclude with this withone more shloka on 241, those
who follow the path of yogaattain a singleness and purpose
while the minds of others arefilled with endless thoughts and
(40:40):
choices. Here we are. Here weare talking about that interior,
that interior equanimity of theBU of the wisdom of faculty the
higher mind. Those who followthe path of yoga are yoked to
(41:00):
the booty, right? They're seeingthings from a different
perspective, right? They've donethe work to see things from a
different perspective, and indoing this, attain a singleness
of purpose, yeah, right. What acontrast to the, you know, to
the endless thoughts and choicesof the people of the world.
Nischala Joy Devi (41:25):
So when we look at this, the first thing I
think, Boy, if you thought theother one was difficult, this is
really difficult. So if you dohave the grace, and I'm going to
use that word, even though we'retalking about booty, I like to
combine all the yogas together.
I don't like them separate. Ijust, I feel, that's why I call
(41:46):
it intuitive wisdom, right? Isit's just that way. So here we
have singleness of purpose, andthis at least, what I've
experienced is that when you getlike that, and the others have
(42:06):
the endless thoughts, andsometimes you talk to somebody,
it's always fascinating to me. Ifeel like I'm on a wild mouse.
They start one way, and thenthey go off to the right, and
then they go off to the left,and then they go off to this,
and then they go off to that,and they keep going into
different places, because thatsingleness of purpose escapes
(42:29):
them. And this, to me, is whatmeditation does for us. It
allows us to bring thatsingleness of purpose. So when
one experiences that, that'swhat they see in us a lot, as a
teacher, that we're up there andthis is all we're doing. We're
(42:50):
not making a shopping list,we're not doing anything else.
We're just single this ofpurpose. And they can feel that
we had this very interestingincident happened at one of the
cardiac retreats. A specialguest who, if I mentioned a
name, you would know, veryfamous, decided it was coming
(43:10):
and wanted to share deeprelaxation with the group. And
so we, of course, made thatpossible, and brought everybody
into one room, and I decided totake the relaxation. I thought
this could be a wonderfulopportunity. So I laid down, and
I was feeling very restless, andI couldn't figure out why. And I
(43:33):
thought, well, maybe I feelresponsible for the rest of the
group, because they're, youknow, I was teaching them
before. Couldn't figure out whatit was, but I couldn't relax to
save my life. And finally, Ijust said, Okay, I'm going to
open my eyes and look around andsee if anyone's in distress.
Again, it was a cardiac group,so people could have been in
(43:54):
distress or something. And Iopened my eyes and I saw the
teacher fumbling. His his eyeswere open. He was fixing his his
shirt, he was his pants. He wasmoving some papers around. And I
realized he was not in thatplace of single one pointedness
that he was trying to bring usto. And the lesson is, which I
(44:18):
think many of us know, is thatwhen they we can only take the
students as far as we can go. Ifwe go into that place, they can
come with us. They may go beyondus, which is always the hope of
a teacher, but that's what I'mtalking about, at least having
(44:45):
that that single mindedness sothey can then feel that sense
when you're leading them throughtheir practices.
Kamala Rose (44:57):
That's a great example for me. I like. To take
the yogas apart, to look atthem, each individually. And I
think the idea here of Buddyoga, of a concentration, an
interior mental concentration,you know, as a as a distinct
action that or an interioraction or effort that one is
(45:19):
making in practice, right? Ithink I just love to explore
that as the, you know, of of asingleness and purpose, a
focused and resolute mind,single in purpose, right? And I,
I mean, it's a great example,because when, when one has that
(45:40):
singleness of purpose and someteaching and guiding others will
be very directed, right? Andthat's an that that is a skill
worth a certain degree ofadmiration and respect to you
know, take a subject like theBhagavad Gita or like a yoga
(46:00):
nidra, deep relaxation, and beable to follow that to not get
distracted by our phones and thethings that are going on in the
teacher's personal life, right?
The respect for that timetogether, right? And I think the
shloka is making an importantpoint, that without that
interior working toward thatstate of equanimity and interior
(46:24):
wisdom, right? The mind isdistracted. It's vikship, but
it's, it's all over the place,right? It's distracted. It can
be it'll jump to the phone. It'smessing with its tie. It's all
over the place. Who doesn't knowthis distracted state of mind in
our modern world? And it'sreally the yogi who those who
(46:49):
follow the practices of yoga whoare able to focus and bring
one's effort into that sort ofsingle, pointed goal and
purpose.
Nischala Joy Devi (47:06):
I think that's a great place to stop
Kamala Rose (47:09):
at this point. I agree. I think we've had a
wonderful discussion today.
Thank you so much for all ofyour insights, nishilla, Davey,
and
Nischala Joy Devi (47:17):
you also, gamma rose, thank you. And I
think just leaving off with thatphrase, singleness of purpose
may give you the listenerssomething to think about until
the next podcast. Notice. Justnotice when you have that
singleness of purpose, when youdon't I
Kamala Rose (47:40):
need absolutely thank you so much for listening,
friends. Namaste. Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (47:50):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nystula Joy Davie andKamala rose. We would like to
express our gratitude for theongoing support for a woman's
Gita podcast and book from yogagives back a non profit
organization dedicated to theunderserved women and children
of India. Please join us againfor our next episode coming
(48:13):
soon. Namaste. You.
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy Devi and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:42):
Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita. I'm
Nishchala Joy Devi, and I'mKamala rose, and we'd like to
welcome you back, or if this isyour first time, welcome today,
we're going to move into sloka240 we're still in the second
(01:02):
chapter, and we're moving alittle bit into a different
aspect today. So let's beginwith 240 no effort in practice
is ever lost, nor are thereoutcomes negative, even a little
(01:23):
spiritual practice protects onefrom fear.
Kamala Rose (01:29):
Yes, a very important shloka for yogis and
for all who read the Gita in theoriginal Sanskrit Neha B karma,
st, pratya, pratya, vayo na,videota, svalpam, apyasya,
(01:50):
dharmasya, triath, Mahato,bhayata, right? There's again,
there's so much to unpack here.
You heard the word dharma,dharmasya. You heard the word
karma, right? Which we know thisis, this is the idea of
undertaking an effort, right? Sono effort is lost in the
(02:13):
practice of yoga, and never arethe outcomes negative. There's
no going back right. We mighteven call this backsliding
right. In a in a religiouscontext, there's no going back
right. Any effort that's made isalways going to have a positive
(02:34):
result, right? Even a little bitof this discipline. Krishna uses
the word dharmasya to describethis discipline when he says we
would read it as even a littlebit of the practice of yoga. He
uses the word dharma for yogahere protects one from fear or
(02:55):
danger. Bhaya. So lots to unpackhere, lots to talk about in
truly what is one of the mostinspiring verses for all of us
as yogis who come to practiceevery day, roll out our mats or
(03:16):
meditation cushions, and we showup for ourselves, it's inspiring
to know that this effort isnever wasted, right? Even if,
even if there are interruptionsin practice, that effort is
never wasted, and any effortthat we put into the practice of
(03:37):
yoga will always come to a goodresult, because it is for
because its aim, its goal, isthe realization of the
transcendent aspect of oneself,the Atman. All roads lead to the
Atman.
Nischala Joy Devi (03:57):
I think this is particularly poignant in
that, in the beginning ofpractice, at least, and
sometimes in the middle andtowards wherever we're going.
But people have doubt, and Ithink this is something that
really helps. And they say, youknow, all I can do is five
(04:19):
minutes a day of meditation, andthey'll come up to you and
they'll say, is that enough? Andas teachers, I think we're put
in a very interesting positionwith that, because is it enough
for what right? Is it enough toget realize Self Realization?
Probably not. But is it enoughto calm down a fearful or
(04:44):
tumultuous mind that it may helpso I think when we we look at
this and we see that nothing islost, that everything that you
do, every effort that you make,you. Gets, gets you some some
level of the peace that we'reseeking, some level, even if
(05:07):
it's a little bit or justtransient, is something that
comes so I think this issomething that's that's very
important, and some of thequestions I get asked a lot, and
then we look at this word fear,if anything stops us from our
own realization, or even in theworldly sense, from getting that
(05:31):
job that you want, from gettinginto the school you want, from
doing whatever you're thinking,what stops most people is Fear,
which is the most primal of allemotions, and to have a way to
quell this, this fear, or herethey, even, you say, protects us
(05:53):
from the fear, is somethingthat, in my Mind, we would all
be rushing to do, if anythingcan help that. And there's
probably one of my favoritesayings that I use all the time,
and those of people who know meknow that and that. When I
(06:15):
remember when we were littlenovices, and our teacher was
talking to us about fear, hesaid, The only thing that will
stop you, the only real obstaclebetween you and what your desire
of self realization is, is fear.
It will stop you because themind will show you parts of it
(06:36):
that you don't want to see, butyou have to face those parts,
because it's also part of themind's expression. So this is
something you could use, even asa mantra, and that is Kas chit
dirajas Chit dira. It means veryfew are that courageous, and
(06:59):
what it says, what it doesn'tsay, but it's underlined to move
into a spiritual practice, tomove on to a spiritual path that
very few tread, and as we'retold, very few continue because
of this fear. So here we'rebeing promised
Unknown (07:26):
that the fear can be at least calmed to a certain point.
Kamala Rose (07:33):
Well, I think you're very right to zoom in on
that word bahaya and addressthis idea of of what is the this
fear that we're talking about?
Certainly, when we engage inspiritual practice, we're moving
into the unknown and to theunknown parts of ourselves. We,
you know, especially early on,we have no idea, and can be very
(07:58):
pessimistic and think that I'mgonna find horrible things in my
subconscious that I'll have todeal with in the process of
meditation and purification. Andnot to say that there, you know,
there aren't some skeletons inthe closet for all of us, but I
think, I think the fear issimply of what's unknown, the
(08:19):
unknown of who you are and theresponsibility that comes from
becoming who you are can bescary. I mean, you and I both
know as monastics, there's anawful lot we gave up to focus on
the realization of this realself, you know. But I think for
(08:40):
many of our readers, many of thepeople who are listening to this
podcast who would never become amonastic and are aren't really
looking at the fear of leavingsomething behind to start
something that they don't fullyunderstand as as we did, um, I
think the idea of of who youare, it can be, it can be, you
(09:07):
know, cast a certain doubt. Andit does take, as you so rightly,
brought in that teaching fromthe katha, Upanishad, kachit
diraha, that very few are thatcourageous to follow the path
that leads them to who theyreally are, to that very
(09:27):
authentic sense of dharma,right? Because we are talking
about a Dharma that is in theworld, a way of living one's
yoga. And I think that sometimesthat's, you know, we're going to
confront the parts of ourselvesthat are yet unpurified Or that
you don't know yet you've you'venot really confronted. I spoke
(09:50):
to a yoga teacher earlier thisweek who is terrified of
standing in front of the classand. Speaking in front of
people, and it keeps her fromteaching yoga. This might be
true with some of our listeners,that they're, you know, there's,
there's some of the skillsinvolved in being a yoga teacher
(10:10):
that they feel are way outsideof their skill set. You know, I
can speak personally that evendoing this podcast, is filled
with a lot of anxiety and fearabout being so public, from
being in such a shelteredenvironment as the monastery.
Right teaching publicly is, youknow, is a new territory. So I
(10:35):
think we're talking about thatfear of what you haven't done
yet, and the fear of of becomingoneself, right, expressing
oneself and expressing thosedharmic impulses that live in
each of our hearts, I think thisis extremely relevant To the
subject here of karma yoga,right? And you know, just to
(11:01):
link that into the practice ofmeditation and the realization
of the Atman and everything thatwe're really talking about here
in the Gita, that what, what isthe practice? It is the practice
of meditation, of buddhi, of ofyoking, the buddhi or, let's
say, seeing through one's wisdomfaculty a bigger picture serve,
(11:26):
serving a greater whole thanone's solely personal right,
wants and desires, And movinginto a larger sphere, which is
full of unknowns. So this ideaof practice protecting us from
that those fears, I think, is soempowering because it because we
(11:53):
gain experience in doing it. Wegain experience to learn that,
that the things that we had tobe afraid of are not real,
right? They're just doubts madeinto something maybe larger than
what they are. And to rememberthat very few are so courageous
as to walk the path of, let'ssay, a radical authenticity,
(12:19):
right, a radical expression ofwho you are. Very few are that
brave in the world to put otherthings aside, cultural
expectations, friends andfamily's expectations of you to
do what you feel to be authenticso a very empowering shloka
(12:41):
indeed.
Nischala Joy Devi (12:47):
Sometimes people come to me and they they
say, I love what? I love thesepractices. I love the
meditation. But I'm so afraidthat if I continue this, I won't
want to be with my familyanymore. This is something that
I hear over and over and overagain, and it said, I think it's
(13:11):
a lot of the integration that wespoke about last time, that the
ability to be in the world, butnot of it, and when the world is
pulling so strongly in thatdirection, many people find it
difficult, and they say the fearof it being in meditation and
(13:34):
getting lost, that's somethingelse people talk about. And I
say there's nowhere to get lost.
There's only one path. There'sno lost you're just going into
this higher consciousness. So Ithink, I think the society that
we live in also has aresponsibility. It seems to be
causing a lot of fear forpeople, and if we can just begin
(13:55):
to name it and eliminate some ofthe obvious ones, that when we
get to this deep spiritual well,that instead of feeling any
fear, there's awe, there's Wow.
(14:17):
Let's go for this and well, letme see how it transforms me. Let
me see what I do. I mean, a lotof women will come to me and
they'll say, I don't want sexanymore, and my husband's very
upset, or my partner is veryupset. And this is just the
normal moving away from thephysical. It's not an intent.
(14:41):
It's not something that we say,Oh, this is what I'm going to
do, unless you're following thatparticular path. So this whole
idea is really of fear. I cansee how it stops people from
doing something. You need tofeel it and just go for it
anyway, because it's. Otherwiseyou'll be staying in one place.
(15:03):
A very funny incident happenedto me on an airplane some years
ago that refers exactly to this,and this man was sitting next to
me, and it was still the dayswhen they served meals, and they
would yell out on the plane, whogot the vegetarian meal, you
(15:23):
know? And I would kind of cowera little bit and raise my hand,
and it's me. And so he looks atme, and he says, Oh, you're a
vegetarian, huh? And he said, Isaid, Yes. He said, Oh, I used
to be a vegetarian. I said, Oh,that's interesting. And try to
eat my meal. And then he reachesunder his seat, and he pulls out
(15:43):
a brown paper bag, pull pulls itback a little bit, unscrews
something, takes a drink, anddoes the reverse and puts it
back under his seat. And Ididn't say anything, and it just
looked and he said, Yep, I used,I used to do all those spiritual
practices. I said, whathappened? And he said, I got
(16:06):
scared. And he said, instead ofgoing toward the spirit, I now
have spirit in a bottle. Hesaid, But you're inspiring me to
go back. He said, I was afraidthat I would lose everything,
and I'm thinking to myself,actually, you gain everything.
(16:26):
You don't lose anything you'readding. In the Bible doesn't
this say that seek ye first thekingdom of heaven, and then all
else will be added unto you,right? I mean, that's a promise,
isn't it?
Kamala Rose (16:45):
Absolutely, yeah.
And I remember the story of how,how terrified many of those
fishermen were when Jesus calledthem to follow him. Leave this
he said, leave this behind.
Follow me. I am the Way, theTruth in the light and but
those, I mean, those traditionalgenerational fishermen were
(17:07):
terrified to leave the securityof the boat and the net and what
they knew their whole life so
Nischala Joy Devi (17:13):
Exactly. And that's and I think that we need
to listen to some of the thecolonels, the the kernels of
teaching that probably we don'tneed all of the rest of it, but
to hear something like that,Seek ye first the kingdom, and
then everything will be addedunto you. Yogananda said
(17:34):
something similar. He said,Don't come in the winter of your
life. If you haven't come in thespringtime. And what he was
trying to say is it's so muchharder to come in the winter,
because you're already set inyour ways. You already have this
huge life. So this this fear, isa big thing. It's a big thing in
(17:58):
medicine, it was a big thing. Iwould say to somebody, why
didn't you come in before? Whydid you let it get to this
point? And what would they say?
I was afraid. I was afraid tohear what it might be. I was
afraid of the pain. So this fearis really something that I think
the yoga practices addressdirectly, and that's the power
(18:23):
of them.
Kamala Rose (18:29):
I We can read it on so many levels too. We have the
personal fears that are commonto every human being we've
talked I think these are allgreat examples that we've been
discussing. I think thattraditionally, in terms of those
(18:49):
early yoga practitioners, whichyou know, are at this time of
the Gita, we're looking also atthe the idea of of samsara, or
the the wheel of being bound toour karma eternally, yes, right?
(19:10):
This idea of of no escape fromthe wheel of reincarnation,
right? And this is, this isreally the purpose of yoga is to
free us from that wheel ofreincarnation, of samsara. And
so, you know, in this context,we can also read into those
(19:31):
spiritual dangers, right? Thatare we? We hear very commonly in
in religion, the spiritualdanger of pride, right? The
spiritual danger of wrong views,of misplaced efforts, right?
These things can really get inour way. We can misperceive the
(19:54):
spiritual. I think again, evenon this level, we're looking
that Yoga itself. Is a Mokshapractice, a liberatory practice
aimed at releasing us from thewheel of reincarnation. And it
is the practice by showing up,doing practice, by meditating
(20:17):
and looking deeply into our eachof us, our personal nature, we
can buy this path overcome whatare the spiritual dangers, such
as pride, wrong effort, wrongviews, right, misperceptions of
the goal that are inevitable onthe path, right? We like to make
(20:41):
it so much easier, or so muchmore self serving than what it
really is in truth, we on the onthis path of knowing who we are,
we will overcome thesesignificant, let's say,
brigands, that block the paththese misunderstandings of wrong
(21:03):
perception. And we come back tothe first part of the shloka
that no effort in thesepractices is ever lost and never
are their outcomes. NegativeYoga itself is in the tradition,
is, is seen as a non bindingaction, right? So when we come
(21:26):
to practice, whether we'recoming to practice and
practicing Asana meditation,there's these are non binding
actions, right? They're they'renot going to attach us to the
wheel of reincarnation anymore.
In fact, they're going to helpliberate us. So even if there is
an interruption in practice fora period of time, and you come
(21:47):
back and you sit down and yousay, Wow, that last two weeks
was crazy. I did not have timeto meditate once. And now, here
I am. It's difficult, but it theeffort is not lost, right? You
very quickly come back to aremembered, almost physical and
mental sense of the practice ofconcentration, of meditation,
(22:13):
and that sense of being calledthe self.
Nischala Joy Devi (22:23):
I think time also plays a part in this. If
it's two weeks, you may be ableto regain it, because if you
have had a steady practicebefore, but if you meditated
once two years ago, and you sitdown again, chances are not a
(22:45):
whole lot is going to happenwith it. The we talked about
this, the the water needs tosink into the roots of the plant
before you move it. So I thinkon one hand, we have to be
encouraging, but on the otherhand, there has to be also some
realism in this. There's acertain level of practice to get
(23:08):
to and a certain depth of levelto practice to get to before we
can take take it to the nextlevel, or play it forward, or
however you want to say it. Andso again, how? What do you want
out of this? I think this is animportant question we have to
(23:30):
keep asking ourselves, why arewe doing this? Are we doing this
because our back hurt and wewant to make it feel better, and
that's a totally valid reasonfor doing something, but if you
really want to go to that, takeyourself to that place that's
beyond the comprehension of thehuman mind, to a place of
(23:54):
absolute peace. It's a verydifferent level of practice that
we're talking about here, one ofthe ops, one of the issues when
you were talking Kamala,especially about pride, I always
go back to and also in the YogaSutras, I see this a lot too.
(24:17):
They keep warning us not tothink you're more evolved than
you actually are. And I think wesee this a lot. We have kind of
the yoga teacher aura, or ideaof how you walk in a room and
you're there's a certain way youare, which is fine, that's just,
(24:40):
that's just part of thepeacefulness. But when you start
to think that you're moreevolved than everybody else, I
think that's where we get into alittle bit of issue. And I this
is where it's talking here theprotection, the word it protects
us. I think, I'm not sure mostpeople think about it like that,
(25:04):
but this is a power. Ifsomething can protect us like
that, that's that's a power, butwe can't fight it with thinking
that we're more evolved than weare. The same tradition has a
wonderful phrase for this. Isone of my another one of my
favorite things, if someone actslike that, they call it, they
(25:25):
stink of enlightenment. To me,that's just so powerful,
stinking of enlightenment, ifyou just stop and listen to the
words put together. But the ideais that the more evolved you
get, the more humble you get,because you're seeing the awe of
(25:49):
the Divine Spirit, and thatmakes you humble. It's like
standing in in Montana or aplace where the sky is so big
and you feel so insignificant,yet a part of the whole and a
part of the greatness. To me,that's really what this is
saying here. No effort inpractice is law is ever lost,
(26:14):
nor are the outcomes negative.
That's the other thing peoplecome and worry about. Well,
suppose I'm doing it wrong, andit's gonna, instead of bringing
me peace, it'll bring me moretumult. No, no, it only it's a
one way street. It doesn't gotwo ways with with spiritual
practice. It only takes you inthe positive. And that's why I
(26:36):
think we can need a continuationof teachers, and I know there's
a lot of teachers out there thatwe're speaking to, it's our
responsibility to help peopleunderstand what it really means.
And the longer you've beenpracticing, the longer each of
us understands it, and then wecan then pass it on to the next,
(26:58):
who then understand it andcontinue the tradition,
Kamala Rose (27:05):
I think you're so right to emphasize that that
important obstacle of pride andthinking yourself far beyond
where you are, and I Think Ithink that humility is certainly
so important, but difficult. Youknow, it's difficult to, you
(27:28):
know, not congratulate yourselffor the great job you're doing.
And doesn't that just enable youto bypass so many things? Right?
You lose so much of the of thegrit and the grist for the mill
when you see yourself above andbeyond the you know the things
(27:48):
that every ordinary human beingdeals with right when we are
able to see through our ownsense of pride, we're better
able to help people andunderstand everyone has at some
point that sense of seeingthemselves beyond where they are
for 100 different reasons. Andyou know, this is a serious
(28:11):
obstacle, especially in the yogaworld today, right? We we've
seen so many teachers take anincredible fall because they've
positioned themselves to be farbeyond, almost inaccessible, so
self realized that they'rebeyond any fault whatsoever. And
(28:33):
so when someone raises anargument to say, except my
experience was this way I felthurt and offended and excluded.
All of these very realexperiences of students calling
on someone who's presentingthemselves as spiritually
(28:56):
evolved, right? There can be areal disconnect. And you know,
this is something that'scharacterized the last decade in
the yoga community. Is a kind ofreckoning of what kinds of
teachers are we looking for,what kinds of students do we
want to be, and how can we carefor these yogic teachings in the
(29:19):
modern world, when we are we areheld in the container of
capitalism, right? And everyonehas to make $1 off of it. And
right, there's, there's a lotof, there's a lot of discussion,
I believe, to be had here in ourcommunities, about about proper
(29:42):
relationships, proper mentoring,a right student's attitude and
space to be able to honestlydiscuss without the traditional
hierarchies that have kept usbound. Right, right? Capitalism
itself is its own hierarchybetween, you know, from the rich
(30:05):
at the top to the poor on thebottom. And truly, patriarchy
itself is that ultimatehierarchy where we place some
men on a high pedestal while,you know, often the rest of us
are, you know, left wanting atthe bottom, I see that the yoga
(30:26):
community is in that kind of areckoning today where we, you
know, enough people, haveseriously studied the yogic
teachings to the degree that Ithink we can unravel some of
these power dynamics. I think wecan, we can discuss them
together. I think we can holdeach other accountable for, you
(30:51):
know, for our teaching, for ourchoices, and we can better learn
how to work with our students ina way that doesn't always you
don't always have to be in thatsort of a dominant and
submissive power dynamic. Ithink Westerners in all of our
(31:13):
capitalist societies arenaturals at that right. We fall
right into a submissive role inthe teaching relationship and
for 100 different reasons, rightfor women who have been under
patriarchy for so manycenturies, so many millennia,
(31:33):
you know, not knowing how to actAs an individual, empowered,
mentally alert human being with,you know, who? Who gives
themself the respect of havingher own agency? Yeah, right, so,
Nischala Joy Devi (31:49):
but how does it come in? Because I, and I
agree with everything you justsaid. It's just, I'm also
looking at the other side as ateacher, because what is
happening also as the like,there was no question for me as
a student with a guru, he wasthe last word that was it,
(32:11):
period, and being who I was, Ikind of questioned, which got me
in a lot of trouble. But I guessthe question that comes to me as
a teacher in this time and inthis modern time is there also
has to be a respect for theteacher, which I'm seeing is not
(32:37):
happening. There's either anadoration or who do you think
you are teaching me this? Whatdo you know? And I think there
has to, because we're not taughtto respect teachers as a whole
in our society, as we as manyother cultures are, then it
(32:58):
bleeds in, and if the yogateacher just acts like a friend
or a pal, which some of them, doyou miss that student, teacher
relationship? So I think this isvery tricky right now, as we're
switching paradigms, we have tobe careful to not get that
(33:21):
teacher student relationshipthrown out with it, because if
we do, everything is lost.
Because if we don't learn fromthose who have been practicing
longer, and we think we caninvent everything, that's a
whole other obstacle that we'retalking of pride. People say,
Oh, why? I just changed thisasana. I said, after this many
(33:44):
1000s of years, you're changingthe asana. Tell me, why? What?
What is it? Is it because ourmodern bodies can't do what they
did 5000 years ago? So there's,there's a, it's as usual. Here
we go again. It's the razor'sedge. It's the ability to make
(34:04):
that determination and havesomeone as your student. And can
they also be your friend? Ithink this is the the part. And
can you can wreck somebodywithout them being offended,
because that's your job. If yousee someone hunched over in
(34:26):
meditation and you go over andcorrect their posture, that's
what you're supposed to bedoing. There's no offense in
that. Do you? So I think it's itgets muddy, is what I'm saying.
There's a muddiness thathappens. I
Kamala Rose (34:41):
completely agree, and I think that's why dialog is
the best option. Dialog withinthose within the community, of
those who are very serious aboutthis, I think that, you know,
we've seen, we've seen the way,let's say traditional lineages.
Have been received in the UnitedStates. It's almost like, you
(35:05):
know, the worship and thereverence is so it's just almost
over the top religious rightand, and I don't know if that
was well thought out in advance,to say I respect this asana
teacher, for example, as anembodiment of the Divine. I
(35:25):
don't know if that studentnecessarily processed it that
way, but that respect just getskind of it goes from respect, as
you said, to adoration. It'slarger than life. And when
something happens and thatteacher acts like a human being,
the student is shocked. Howcould it be that they're how do
they eat? They you know, theyget grumpy when they're hungry.
(35:48):
I don't understand. They'resupposed to be perfect. I think
we're missing a lot of nuance inthere. And you know, this is
exactly the point of discussionis, how can we hold our teachers
ourselves being teachers? Whowould, you know, who aspire to
be taken seriously in the workwe do? You know, we're serious
(36:09):
people. We're teaching a serioussubject. There's not many people
who can, right? So we're, we'rein that position, but you know
also to to not be so, you know,to help our students not build
pedestals all the time. And itis, it is a razor's edge, and I
(36:35):
think it's one of the importantdialogs that we're having in the
yoga community. Today I'll justread that verse from the
Upanishads that you referenced.
This is from the also from thekata Upanishad. I'm in chapter
three, verse 14, arise, awake.
Pay attention when you'veobtained your wishes. A razor's
(37:00):
edge is hard to cross, that thepoets say is the difficulty of
the path,
Nischala Joy Devi (37:07):
yeah. And if you look at what a razor is,
it's actually fascinating. Ifyou look at it under a
magnification, there is a flatedge to it, and then it slopes
down on either side, but thatflat edge is so narrow a little
slip one way or another, anyonewho's ever shaved with one would
(37:28):
know that you cut yourself, andthat's what happens, and that's
what happens with this whenpeople go off or a little bit
this way or a little bit thisway, and I think that's why, As
monks, there's no, there's not alot of variation. I wore the
same thing every day. I ate thesame thing every day. I did the
same prayers. Every day I didthe same mass, and as every day,
(37:51):
everything was the same. It waslike Groundhogs Day. If you ever
saw that movie where you get upevery day is the same thing and
you get to do it over again, isthe good news, and you get to
make it better. And I think so,that's the thing. It just takes
away all the distractions. Butmost people don't have that.
(38:14):
They have the distractions, theconstant distractions. There was
one of our monks, he would sayabout distractions. He was very
funny. He say, I love to havedistractions like noise or
something like that during mymeditation. He said it gives me
something to meditate against.
And I thought that was a veryinteresting observation that he
had like that. So there's that,there's knowing who you are. So
(38:41):
when the student says to you,you are the most wonderful
person, I can't believe howextraordinary you are. You think
to yourself, yeah, I'm that too,but I'm also this, and I'm also
this, and I think to just acceptit, or look at them and say,
(39:04):
we're both like that. The lightis in both of us, but then you
get the other side too. I havestudents to say, Well, how do
you know? What do you what doyou know about this? I said,
Well, I've just been studyingfor a long time, also getting
the direct knowledge. But weshouldn't have to go through
that. We're there. We'representing something. Take it or
(39:28):
not. It's like a buffet. Theydon't stand over you in a buffet
and say, try some of this. Trysome of that. You just take what
you like, and if you don't likeit, don't go back for seconds.
But the respect, I think, for ateacher, is very important from
the student, but the teachershould know where, where that
(39:49):
energy is coming from.
Kamala Rose (39:54):
Yeah, yes, from and from and from. The experience
with all of our teachers. Whohave shared that and that those
like those similarly don't haveto be perfect to be to be able
to teach the inspired wisdom ofyoga
Nischala Joy Devi (40:13):
if you wish for yourself to be perfect, we
wouldn't have any teachers.
Nothing's
Kamala Rose (40:17):
gonna it might never happen, right? The world
might just continue to getnuttier and nuttier. How about
if we conclude with this withone more shloka on 241, those
who follow the path of yogaattain a singleness and purpose
while the minds of others arefilled with endless thoughts and
(40:40):
choices. Here we are. Here weare talking about that interior,
that interior equanimity of theBU of the wisdom of faculty the
higher mind. Those who followthe path of yoga are yoked to
(41:00):
the booty, right? They're seeingthings from a different
perspective, right? They've donethe work to see things from a
different perspective, and indoing this, attain a singleness
of purpose, yeah, right. What acontrast to the, you know, to
the endless thoughts and choicesof the people of the world.
Nischala Joy Devi (41:25):
So when we look at this, the first thing I
think, Boy, if you thought theother one was difficult, this is
really difficult. So if you dohave the grace, and I'm going to
use that word, even though we'retalking about booty, I like to
combine all the yogas together.
I don't like them separate. Ijust, I feel, that's why I call
(41:46):
it intuitive wisdom, right? Isit's just that way. So here we
have singleness of purpose, andthis at least, what I've
experienced is that when you getlike that, and the others have
(42:06):
the endless thoughts, andsometimes you talk to somebody,
it's always fascinating to me. Ifeel like I'm on a wild mouse.
They start one way, and thenthey go off to the right, and
then they go off to the left,and then they go off to this,
and then they go off to that,and they keep going into
different places, because thatsingleness of purpose escapes
(42:29):
them. And this, to me, is whatmeditation does for us. It
allows us to bring thatsingleness of purpose. So when
one experiences that, that'swhat they see in us a lot, as a
teacher, that we're up there andthis is all we're doing. We're
(42:50):
not making a shopping list,we're not doing anything else.
We're just single this ofpurpose. And they can feel that
we had this very interestingincident happened at one of the
cardiac retreats. A specialguest who, if I mentioned a
name, you would know, veryfamous, decided it was coming
(43:10):
and wanted to share deeprelaxation with the group. And
so we, of course, made thatpossible, and brought everybody
into one room, and I decided totake the relaxation. I thought
this could be a wonderfulopportunity. So I laid down, and
I was feeling very restless, andI couldn't figure out why. And I
(43:33):
thought, well, maybe I feelresponsible for the rest of the
group, because they're, youknow, I was teaching them
before. Couldn't figure out whatit was, but I couldn't relax to
save my life. And finally, Ijust said, Okay, I'm going to
open my eyes and look around andsee if anyone's in distress.
Again, it was a cardiac group,so people could have been in
(43:54):
distress or something. And Iopened my eyes and I saw the
teacher fumbling. His his eyeswere open. He was fixing his his
shirt, he was his pants. He wasmoving some papers around. And I
realized he was not in thatplace of single one pointedness
that he was trying to bring usto. And the lesson is, which I
(44:18):
think many of us know, is thatwhen they we can only take the
students as far as we can go. Ifwe go into that place, they can
come with us. They may go beyondus, which is always the hope of
a teacher, but that's what I'mtalking about, at least having
(44:45):
that that single mindedness sothey can then feel that sense
when you're leading them throughtheir practices.
Kamala Rose (44:57):
That's a great example for me. I like. To take
the yogas apart, to look atthem, each individually. And I
think the idea here of Buddyoga, of a concentration, an
interior mental concentration,you know, as a as a distinct
action that or an interioraction or effort that one is
(45:19):
making in practice, right? Ithink I just love to explore
that as the, you know, of of asingleness and purpose, a
focused and resolute mind,single in purpose, right? And I,
I mean, it's a great example,because when, when one has that
(45:40):
singleness of purpose and someteaching and guiding others will
be very directed, right? Andthat's an that that is a skill
worth a certain degree ofadmiration and respect to you
know, take a subject like theBhagavad Gita or like a yoga
(46:00):
nidra, deep relaxation, and beable to follow that to not get
distracted by our phones and thethings that are going on in the
teacher's personal life, right?
The respect for that timetogether, right? And I think the
shloka is making an importantpoint, that without that
interior working toward thatstate of equanimity and interior
(46:24):
wisdom, right? The mind isdistracted. It's vikship, but
it's, it's all over the place,right? It's distracted. It can
be it'll jump to the phone. It'smessing with its tie. It's all
over the place. Who doesn't knowthis distracted state of mind in
our modern world? And it'sreally the yogi who those who
(46:49):
follow the practices of yoga whoare able to focus and bring
one's effort into that sort ofsingle, pointed goal and
purpose.
Nischala Joy Devi (47:06):
I think that's a great place to stop
Kamala Rose (47:09):
at this point. I agree. I think we've had a
wonderful discussion today.
Thank you so much for all ofyour insights, nishilla, Davey,
and
Nischala Joy Devi (47:17):
you also, gamma rose, thank you. And I
think just leaving off with thatphrase, singleness of purpose
may give you the listenerssomething to think about until
the next podcast. Notice. Justnotice when you have that
singleness of purpose, when youdon't I
Kamala Rose (47:40):
need absolutely thank you so much for listening,
friends. Namaste. Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (47:50):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nystula Joy Davie andKamala rose. We would like to
express our gratitude for theongoing support for a woman's
Gita podcast and book from yogagives back a non profit
organization dedicated to theunderserved women and children
of India. Please join us againfor our next episode coming
(48:13):
soon. Namaste. You.
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