October 6, 2024 • 46 mins
In this thought-provoking episode of A Women's Gita, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose explore the profound opening chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, examining the intricate relationships between war, spirituality, and the feminine perspective.
Main topics in this episode:
- The challenge of reconciling the Gita's wartime setting with its spiritual teachings
- The "fight or flight" response that listeners may experience when confronting the Gita's themes
- Arjuna's personal crisis on the battlefield and its impact on his worldview
- The exploration of personal and existential fear, including Arjuna's "Dark Night of the Soul"
- Parallels between Arjuna's struggles and modern-day readers' inner conflicts
- The significance of cultivating compassion for oneself and those affected by conflict
- A fresh, feminine interpretation of the Gita's opening verses
- An invitation to approach the Gita with openness to its complexities and wisdom
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:02):
Namaste. Welcome to a Woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
Nischala Joy, Davey and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely. You
Nischala Joy Devi (00:43):
Namaste.
Welcome to a Women's Gita.
I'm Nischala Devi and I'm Kamalarose.
Kamala Rose (00:52):
I think it's a great contrast to what you said
about humility, Nischala that,that we have on one side, this
sort of macho posturing
Nischala Joy Devi (00:54):
Today we're going to go into Chapter One of
the Gita. And as we do that, Iwould like to just explore for a
few minutes the mystical aspectof it. I think most of us know
the war, and also we understandthat there's these incredible
(01:16):
teachings in the Gita. Themystical part is a little less
understood and even spoken of.
Firstly, let's point out thatthis is being narrated from a
distance away from thebattlefield. It is not someone
sitting at the battlefield.
(01:39):
Instead, they are far away. Andhis name is Sanjay, or Sanjaya,
however you choose. And he isnarrating what is happening in
the war scene for Josh trashtra,help me. Drishtra, vary
(02:00):
torashtra, and he's a visionary.
Sanjay is the visionary withpowers of clairvoyance and
clairaudience. Now I think thatwe really need to step back and
understand that even today, aswe are reading or talking about
the Gita, there is a certainamount of this clairvoyance and
(02:24):
this clear audience that we needto have. If we take the words
literally as they're written,it's one interpretation of the
Gita. If you take the power ofknowing that this has happened
(02:45):
1000s of years ago, yet is beingrecounted to us now, that in a
way, is very mystical, taking itin with your intellect is one
thing. If you can take it inwith your heart and your
(03:05):
intuition, you will understandthis book in a way that could
never be explained by anyone.
You know this. You know theseteachings. They've been with you
for 1000s and 1000s ofincarnations, yet now they're
(03:25):
coming to fruition. So bringingthe mystical aspect in is very,
very powerful. Also, I think ithelps us, at least it helps me
not to get into the dynamics ofthis war scene with its weapons
(03:46):
and its blood and gore, etcmore, taking it above, almost
hovering above the battlefield,And watching what happens, being
detached from it, beingable to not understand it, but
to experience the elation of theteachings in it. That's where
(04:10):
I'm going with it, and that'swhere, if you want to, you can
come with me, if not, chooseanother way and go from there.
There's other cast of characterstoo that we just like to point
out a few of them, to just makeit a little bit more
understandable who all thesepeople are. Kamala, can you take
care of that part? Absolutely.
(04:35):
Nischla, the opening verse ofthe Bhagavad, Gita, dharma.
Shaita, Kurukshetra, Sam aveta,yo yo. Saha, Mama ka Pandavas,
chaiva, Kim akur vata, Sanjaya.
What did they do? Sanjaya asks.
Dritara stra This is the openingline of the Gita and as.
Unknown (05:00):
So wisely pointed out, Sanjaya is observing the the
battle from two miles away, andhe's narrating to Dr Rashtra,
who is blind, right? Thesymbolism of drashtra being
blind is, of course, veryprofound. We know the ego is
(05:25):
blind. We know dirt torastralooked many looked away from
much of the malfeasance of his100 sons, the cowrivas that led
to precipitated this war, right?
So when we open up the Gita andwe read the very first verse, we
hear Dr Rashtra speak that whenthey were on the battlefield, my
(05:49):
sons and the Pandavas assembledtogether ready to fight. What
did they do? Sanjaya Tell mewhat happened. And sometimes
this last one that the last partof the verse, what did they do?
How did they behave? What wastheir behavior like on the
battlefield? And I think this ispart of framing this war. Is
(06:14):
there's an idea that there's aright way to have a war, and
there's a wrong way to have awar. We see an awful lot of this
today. A lot of wrong ways tohave war, a lot of disrespectful
ways that treat people verypoorly. This is really trying
to, in a way, say there's a wayto do this in a civilized
(06:39):
manner, is there? That's a greatquestion I'm reading from the
history books that told me,yeah.
Nischala Joy Devi (06:48):
And, you know, I just, and I asked this
question last time, and I'mgoing to repeat it. Is it
necessary to embed spiritualteachings in the story about a
war. And that really stays withme. It just sticks with me. It
(07:09):
is this amazing. Anotherscripture in South Indian Tamil,
Nadu. It's in Tamil, and mostpeople don't know of it, and
it's called the Charu girl. Andthe Charu girl was written by a
very humble Weaver. And thisWeaver was, it was of a class
(07:29):
that was not a Brahmin, and hesaw life from a weaver
standpoint. And one of thethings he said, he talked about
non injuring. It's a little bitarchaic language, but I want to
read it. He's and it also talksabout a man, so I'm going to
editorialize that also. I'mgoing to just say one who was
(07:53):
pure in the heart would notinjure others, even if they
could not obtain a princelyestate there, even if they
could, sorry, even if they couldobtain a princely estate
thereby. So here he's doing theopposite of what the Gita is
saying. He's saying, no matterhow much you're provoked, no
(08:16):
matter what you have to do, donot fight. That's not what we do
as spiritual people. And it goeson to say, even one another
injures you in hate, the personwho is pure in heart returneth
not the injury. So here again,brings in my doubt and my
(08:40):
confusion, because this bookalso written a long time ago and
but takes a little different, amore of a pacifist view, a more
of a person who has beenpracticing and holds Ahimsa At
the highest. So when I readthat, my heart is calm, when I
(09:04):
start hearing about war, myheart gets agitated, and I
really wonder. It makes mewonder, why can't we do this
without the war scene? And we'vestruggled with this. Kamala and
I, we've struggled with thisconstantly. What about the war?
(09:26):
How can we have war? So I'mgoing to leave it to the
listeners to figure this out forthemselves, because I think
every person has a little bit ofdifferent view. Some feel it's
necessary to be in a war,whether it's offensive or
defensive, and others feel, nomatter what, at no cost should
(09:50):
there ever be war. So I think wehave this within us. There's one
part of us that has a hard timewith the. Of killing. And
there's another part of us thatsays, well, they were wrong, and
people were wronged in this theytook their land. Nobody had the
(10:11):
freedoms they had before. Thatwas their job as princes to
fight in this way, even then,some of us still have doubt.
Unknown (10:21):
You reminded me of one of my favorite tellings of the
story of turn the other cheek.
This is the one told by therabbis and in the in the first
century, in the time of Jesus,it was customary that any Roman
slave could use their use theirright hand to backhand the left
(10:45):
side of any slaves face, righton their cheek, could walk up to
anyone and smack them. And sothe idea that you would turn the
other cheek says it's, it's likestanding up and saying, I'm not
your slave. Go ahead. Hit meagain with dignity. I call you
(11:07):
on your action, and I reject thevery premise that makes me a
slave and you a master. So Ithink we see examples of another
way of dealing with such typesof social inequities that lead
to war some have and some havenot, and this incredible fight
(11:34):
for resources that has dominatedhuman history. These are the
things that we've learned aboutsince you know about the history
of the world is one of war afterwar after war. I know you and I
are trying to imagine analternative scenario. And so I
(11:59):
think this idea of a third waywhere you can turn the other
cheek and retain dignity in anoppressive situation is a way of
winning, in a way, and saying,calling calling out violence for
exactly what it is. What do youthink
Nischala Joy Devi (12:19):
would have happened? If it was women
instead of men, would women havedone the same as always a
question I ask myself, and manyother people ask me, and then
when I say something, they'llalways bring up, well, did you
(12:40):
ever hear about this woman whodid violence, but it's, it's
it's less. You can't say it'sthe same. It's not the same. And
I question myself over and overand again, is it because we are
given the power to bring anotherhuman life into this world, and
(13:00):
we don't feel that we have theright to take one out, that our
DNA is geared toward survival,not toward destruction. I think
it's a rhetorical question thatwe can never answer yet, at the
(13:23):
same time, I have to keep it inthe background of my mind as we
go through this, because that'show I think. I don't think like
a warrior, because I'm not awarrior. I've never been a
warrior. I've always walked awayfrom fights. It's never been
(13:44):
something that I have wanted toengage in. So I can't help
wondering what would havehappened say, if the wives had
decided at a certain point we'renot letting you go back where,
if you come home, we're notgoing to be there. We're not
going to have dinner ready foryou. We're not going to wash
(14:06):
your clothes, unless you stopthis senseless battle. But yet,
where would they live? Becausetheir land was taken so nothing
is simple in this it's not asimple right or wrong, there's
too much inner woven in it, andI think that that's the real
(14:27):
conundrum. But because it'sbeing reinterpreted now, re
translated, if you like, by twoWestern women, we have to bring
who we are into it. We are notIndian men. 3000 years ago, it
was a very different world.
Then, you know, we have toremember, it's just been a
(14:49):
little over 100 years that womenhave actually had the right to
vote in this country.
Kamala Rose (14:57):
It's those are great points. Nischala.
Unknown (14:59):
We are looking at it in both the with the eyes of
modernity and technologicaladvance, and we are looking at
it through the eyes of women whohave both been raised in a world
where we were taught that wewould have certain opportunities
(15:21):
and rights given to us, theright to the right of choice, to
make our own decisions, theright to have an equal vote and
in politics that our votecounted, and that gives a
completely differentperspective. And I think this, I
(15:42):
think you're absolutely right,this has been one of the main
things that's kept the Gita awayfrom so many of the people that
I've spoken to. They just don'tunderstand the war narrative and
how it can coexist alongside thespiritual teachings.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:00):
So things. So this first chapter is a very
interesting chapter, and a lotof geeks that I've looked at
actually go over it. They don'teven, they don't even talk about
it, or they make a very simplesynopsis, and then they they
move on. But to me, it actuallysets the tone, and nothing is
(16:24):
put in there just because they,they didn't have any extra space
in those days, or their editordidn't say, Oh, wait, there's no
first chapter. They, they put itin because it was a reason for
it. And a lot of peoplecriticize it as being
superfluous. And I had the samething happen when I was writing
(16:46):
or compiling the the YogaSutras, the very first part, the
very first sutra, people said,Oh, they just just discarded it
doesn't mean anything, becausethey translate it in their mind
as now the exposition of yoga isabout to begin. Well, you know,
(17:06):
I agonized over that, and Ithought, why would you say if
someone walked into myclassroom, I wouldn't say, now
we're going to begin. It'sobvious. They're there and we
begin. So I really went throughit in my mind, what could they
possibly be saying here and howI translated it? Because I think
(17:28):
it's the most important thing weneed. And we're going to see
this in the first chapter of theGita. Also, there needs to be a
certain level of humility, ifthere's not a humility. And you
know, it's interesting. The rootof the word humility is very
interesting. It comes fromEarth. That means to be of the
(17:49):
earth, to be to be in the earthin that way. And I think, in our
terms, in a modern way of sayingit, we're grounded. We feel
grounded. And once you feelgrounded, there's a power to
that, that you can then move outinto the world from that
grounded place. If you're notgrounded, then the world bats
(18:12):
you around like a littlebeanbag, back and forth, back
and forth. So with humility,seemed to me to be the key to be
to learning it. And that goesback to a lot of the famous
stories you hear also inBuddhism, about going to the
master who's doing a teaceremony, and you hold out a
(18:35):
small cup for that master topour the the tea into. And you
see that the master is pouringit all over and it's running
down on the floor. And thestudent finally looks at the
master said, can't you see thiscup is full? And the master
goes, hmm, just like you arefilled. Go empty yourself and
(18:58):
come back, and I'll give you theteachings. That's the humility
that we're talking about. That'sthe idea that we're talking
about here, is having thathumility, not to get down and
have to bow at his feet, butknow that you don't know
everything. We don't know what'sgoing to happen. We project
(19:21):
what's going to happen. The onlything we know is what did happen
and what's happening at thismoment. None of us understand
the future in that way, yet wetry to project it. So here we
have, with humility, an openheart and mind, we embrace the
sacred study of yoga. And Ithink the same applies to here.
(19:44):
You have to have that humilityto open the Gita to be able to
say, teach me. I don't know I'mhere because I need to learn
you're not talking to theKrishna that we were talking
about. Last time you're talkingto a book, but that book has a
spirit. That book has an essenceto it. That book goes back 1000s
(20:10):
of years, and millions of peoplehave read it and experienced the
teachings and have lived theteachings. That's what you're
going into with that humility.
It's not just the book that youpicked up off the rack. This is
something very different. Sogoing in with that humility
makes everything different andsets the tone
Unknown (20:35):
so true. Nischala, without humility,
(22:20):
and statement of largesse, andyou know, meant to frighten the
opponent. And yet we're cominginto what we know to be
teachings on sublime states ofbeing so chapter one really
(22:45):
takes us from a transition fromthe Mahabharata into the
Bhagavad Gita. Chapter One isthat transitional chapter where
all of these characters from theMahabharata have now been
assembled on the battlefield.
We're wrapping up. We know theirstories from the Mahabharata. We
know about the blind king. We'veheard of Sanjaya. We certainly
(23:06):
know Duryodhana. We know whoArjuna is. We know who Christian
Krishna is. And many of these,many of these other warriors
have been included in the storyprior, which is the story of the
Mahabharata. So many of theopening verses are a listing of
(23:26):
who's who in ancient India,
Nischala Joy Devi (23:32):
the who's who of of the battle. That's it. So
I think I'm very curious. So 113says, Then conscious and kettle
drums, tabors and trumpets andcow horns suddenly blared forth,
and the sound was astounding. SoI picture this and all this
(24:00):
noise being made to us to apoint, and I'm just wondering,
what do you think thissignificance is of it, and why
did they put it in such clearterms? They could have just said
conscience were blown, or theycould have just said noise was
(24:21):
made to just at the start of thewar. You know, I think of
sometimes the horse racing, orthink car racing or thing, well,
car racing, they usually use aflag, but horse racing, they use
a bell, and then the horsesstart at that point. But here it
was much more than that. Itwasn't just a bell ringing or a
(24:43):
conch blowing. There was thisnoise that, this cacophony,
really, that started to comethrough, and I'm just wondering
what that did psychologically tothe Warriors.
Unknown (24:57):
Do you ever I agree? I i. Imagine it being dusty and
smelly, or you can smell thehorses. You can smell the
elephants. It's dusty in theair, the conch shells have
blown, which is the signal tobegin fighting. Right? The
kettle drums, yes, right. Ahuge, a huge cacophony of sounds
(25:20):
and animals and warriors beatingtheir shields. Well,
Nischala Joy Devi (25:26):
what's what was the purpose? Do you think of
that? What and why was it sosignificant that it's in the
first chapter having its ownspace in there,
Kamala Rose (25:40):
several verses of just naming the conch shell.
Yeah, and that's what
Nischala Joy Devi (25:44):
I'm wondering. And I'm thinking,
Could it be that they weretrying to puff get themselves
excited to do this? Becausethat's usually like when I think
of drumming, the drumming in thein the Army, Navy, or whatever
they're doing, because we don'tuse that anymore, except in
(26:04):
football games, but or parades.
But there must have beensomething to get these people
all excited.
Unknown (26:16):
So I think the idea that we are meant to have with
the sounding of the conch shellsis that the war has started. The
war has actually started. Andonce, once this whole hullabaloo
has has gotten rolling, the warhas actually begun. Now it's a
(26:42):
couple shlokas later that Arjunanow asks Krishna to drive my
chariot. Drive my chariot.
Chariot in between these twoarmies to the space in between
these two armies. I'm on verse21 Rishikesh Sam, tadam, Edom
(27:03):
Aha, mahipa te nayor, ubayormadye, that means in the armies
in between these two armies,right in the middle space in the
in between space of these twoarmies. Drive my chariot in
there, oh imperishable one.
(27:26):
Krishna, my drive my rata, mychariot in between these two
armies. Right? So the war hasstarted. Arjuna has asked
Krishna to drive the chariot inbetween the two armies, so he
can see, literally, the whitesof their eyes, to see the faces
(27:48):
of all of these soldiers, untilI behold these warriors battle,
hungry and arrayed with whom Imust fight in undertaking this
battle.
Nischala Joy Devi (28:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, there's a partthat says they're eager to
fight, and I always wonder aboutthat. I think people who are
eager to fight not may not bethe best people to fight. I
think it's better if people area little reluctant, because what
it says to me is they don'tunderstand that they're actually
taking lives, that peopleactually die here. And I think
(28:25):
it's a little too Cavalier, inmy opinion, that's that's how I
would feel about that thereneeds to be a little bit of a
reluctance in it in order forthat to happen. And maybe people
may disagree with thatcompletely, but it seems to me,
(28:45):
from a yogic standpoint, not tohave the rah rah and to say, you
know, this is something we haveto do. It's like it's, you know,
again, I have a very longhistory of being in medicine,
and it's the same kind of thing.
You really don't want a surgeonwalking into your room the night
(29:08):
before the surgery and actinglike a cheerleader. Go right, go
in there, and we're going to getthat cancer and we're going to
cut it out, and we're going todo you really don't want that.
You want someone calmer who'sready to do what they need to,
but not any more. And I thinkthis is, this is a problem that
(29:30):
begins to happen. People getoverzealous, and they they kill
even when they don't need to, orthey harm even when they don't
need to, and just doing onlywhat's necessary. And even, even
in medicine, I'll talk to topeople, and they'll say, oh,
yeah, I saw the surgeon, andthey want to do this. And I say,
(29:50):
it's a little radical. Can'tthey do a little less? Can't
they take less in what they'redoing? And then if you need to
take you do you do another.
Procedure. But once you takesomething out, once you kill
somebody, once you go on thebattlefield like that, you can't
take it back. It's finished.
It's gone. So even with thewording of it brings, brings
(30:16):
that kind of energy andawareness to make
Unknown (30:19):
I would agree so much Nisha, and one of the things
I've learned not in this recentperiod and studying the Gita
with you and really lookingcarefully at these questions,
one of the things I've learnedis that, you know, we're
presented with this war scenarioand all of the this idea that
(30:43):
the right, the right people needto sit on the throne, right?
This is a, I think this is acertain moral arc, or a certain
ethical consideration that youand I both find kind of foreign.
Right? We were in America, soit's not a monarchy. We don't
(31:03):
believe in that in the firstplace, right? But one of the
things I learned is that sometheorists argue that women have
a different ethical metric.
Women really see the worlddifferently. And so, you know,
this is presenting us with thestory of justice, right? The
(31:25):
right thing, what's the rightthing? The right people, the
right victors, the right personon the throne, right? And this
is where Arjuna is coming from.
This is where Duryodhana iscoming from. This is where all
of those battle, all of thewarriors on the battlefield are
coming from. They're fighting touphold something that's right.
(31:49):
And the whole setting of theMahabharata is is framed in this
way, what is the right thing todo for, you know, in varying
circumstances, and particularlyconcerning this war, there was a
theorist named Carol Gilliganwho who argued against some of
(32:11):
the moral measuring that hadbeen done. A sociologist named
Lawrence Kohlberg had determinedthat men seemed to have a higher
measurement of morality thanwomen, and they had given a wide
range of tests to men and womento say, to see, under these
(32:34):
circumstances, how do these boychildren, Girl children, young
adults, etc. How did theyrespond? And so Carol Gilligan
questioned this research bysaying, under what metric Are
you measuring? And it turns outthat kohlberg's theory was built
all around the upholding ofjustice, fairness, the right
(32:57):
thing happening, and that yes,men were much more aligned to
upholding what they determinedto be the right thing, but that
women, women came from an ethicof care, taking care of other
people, and the measurement ofthe, let's say the the
(33:21):
measurement of one's heart, orthe measurement of one's
morality, relationship toethics, could be seen in the way
they interact and take care ofother people. And I think that's
a lot of where we're coming fromthat we we're you know, both in
your experience in medicine, myexperience in working and, you
(33:46):
know, all doing an awful lot offeeding of people doing an awful
lot of work in the community,and, you know, just helping
people get something to Eat andsomething to drink and retain
their dignity. These are thingsthat are meaningful to us and to
(34:06):
a lot of the women that we know,where we find the the metric of
justice to be a little bitforeign.
Nischala Joy Devi (34:16):
I totally agree with that. And I think
there's one other thing thatcomes to me in this I'm not sure
it's gender related, but itseems to be more in that women
seem to look at the consequencesand what's going to happen
(34:36):
afterwards, Because when herfive year old comes home from
school and says, Johnny hit me,or Susie punched me, or whatever
it is. The role that she takesat that point is to say, Okay,
(34:56):
now what happens if I go to thiswell. Will happen if I go to the
principal? Will happen if I goto the person's child's mother
or father? What will happen? SoI think, I think that's sort of
built in in our DNA as women,because we understand
(35:16):
consequences when we'repregnant, if we do certain
things, we know that it dangersthe baby now. Now in modern
times, we know a lot more thanthey did. Then we know alcohol,
cigarettes, etc, does that, butalso fear, fright, all those
things can affect the unbornchild. So I think there's
(35:40):
something built in our DNA thatdoes that, and that does not
allow us to justify somethingthat we're trying to justify
here as a quote, righteous,unquote, bore because of the
consequences. That's where, youknow, and we we've put this
quote in the book because to me,it's very important, simple to
(36:04):
the victor, go the spoils.
Nobody wins in this nobody winsin war. There's always problems,
there's always destruction. Andin medicine, it's collateral
damage. And in war, it'scollateral damage. You go in
there and you cut something out,something else is going to be
affected. So this is, to me, alittle bit of, again, the
(36:26):
feminine coming in, in a waythat is not as obvious, but it's
the consequences. That's what Iwould look at. If someone came
to me and said they were goingto start a war, which they
wouldn't, but if be nice, ifthey did, I would that's the
first thing I would say to them,what are you going to gain? What
(36:49):
are you going to lose, and whatare the consequences of it?
Because to me, that's that youhave to look at the whole
picture, not just get excitedbecause the kettle drums are
banging or the consciousblowing. And I think that
particular aspect of it is whyit happened, why the conscious
(37:12):
blew and they blew for a longperiod of time. It wasn't short.
It was to get everybody psychedup for this war, get them ready
for that, that war, it's almostlike they what they do to a bull
before it goes into the BullRing. You know, they keep it
confined. And that's the lastthing a wild bull wants, is to
be confined. So when they openthat door, that bull shuts just
(37:36):
shoots out. And I think that'sreally what, and that's why I
brought up that sloka, becauseto me, it really feels like
they're trying to puff punt puffthese people up to do something
that is, I feel is against humannature, and really against
divine nature, to kill anotherhuman being. So we have to
(38:00):
override that for the for whatwe feel is a righteous reason in
order to do it.
Unknown (38:12):
And I think, too, in chapter one we, you know, we
have the posturing of the kettledrums, the big the big lead in
to the whole thing and justbeating the big chest, beating,
I know I'm beating my chest.
Here we have, we have thishappening, but it, I think we
should recognize too, this issomething that men experience
(38:35):
differently, a sense of, youknow, a sense of their own
violence differently than womenexperience that. I don't know
that I've ever been afraid of myown capacity in a dangerous
situation if someone insults me,we see it in the movies all the
time. You know, somebody justknocks into another man in a bar
(38:59):
and a whole fight escalates. Youknow, there, of course, there's
some women who would feel thesame way, but I think women in
general don't have to deal withtheir own inherent violence in
the same way that men do. And sowhen we read chapter one, we're
(39:20):
reading a listing of all ofthese men, Drupada and Chiquita,
all these great warriors fromthe the time period. But where
are the women? Where? Where'sthe rest of society? Yeah, of
where this is supposed to be arighteous war that is supposed
(39:42):
that needs to be fought. Butwhat, what I find interesting is
that as we follow the BhagavadGita, we're getting into this
very I this wonderful idea ofinterconnection and oneness. And
seeing this great big hole innature, but this very present
nature of women and lowerclasses that are not represented
(40:09):
here in the naming of the namingof those affected by this
Nischala Joy Devi (40:20):
action. Yeah, and also that they're killing
their kith and kin. These aren'tstrangers, like we can say,
Okay, this enemy, we're going tokill this enemy because they're
doing evil. We don't even knowwho they are, but that's what
we're doing. But these wereactually his relatives. And it's
(40:44):
much harder when you know them.
You know their family, you knowwhat they've done for you,
you've known who they were,you've you've had holiday meals
with them. It's a very differentkind of situation, and I'm
seeing killing a stranger mighthave passed the Dharma test, but
blood relatives and greatfriends caused another reaction,
(41:06):
and I think we have to keepremembering that too, that even
as children, we are taught todefer to our relatives that are
older and to have respect forthem, even if they're not of the
best moral standing. You know,we kind of forgive Uncle Fred
(41:30):
for doing what he did, or auntSusan for doing what she did,
because there are relatives andwe, we have that bond with them,
and now he's being sent out tokill them. So there's, there's
so much going on in this firstchapter that is not even being
(41:52):
spoken of.
Unknown (41:58):
He's seeing his he's seeing fathers and grandfathers
and gurus and maternal unclesand brothers and sons and
grandfathers and male friendsand father in laws and
companions, and as hecontemplates all of these
relatives arrayed on thebattlefield, filled with
(42:21):
infinite pity. He is, yeah, hehas a he has a change of heart.
It is. It's a differentsituation to be looking at those
who are our relations. You know,in these these last several
years, so many of us have foundthat our family, even our close
(42:44):
neighbors, are, wow. I thoughtwe were on the same page. Yeah,
we are not,
Nischala Joy Devi (42:53):
yeah. And I think when he looks at these
people, I mean, as anyone woulddo if I suddenly saw my uncle
come, I think, Oh, we hadThanksgiving together. Wasn't
that sweet? Or we had Christmastogether, or we had new year's
together, or we had Diwalitogether, whatever it was.
(43:13):
Because when you see someone,you remember the connection that
you have, and that connectionmakes it even more difficult to
do something like that. I mean,we have laws against it,
patricide, killing your father,you know. So there's, there's a
(43:33):
certain level that we're noteven touching yet of what's
going on here. And I think thekettle drums and all that are
just a distraction to take themind away from the fact that
they we are killing our kith andkin. And I don't think you can
(43:55):
get away with that. That'sthat's the reality of it. So it
is a despondency. It is adespair. He is going through
this because he does have atleast. What I'm seeing here is a
moral compass that he knows thatkilling isn't right, even though
(44:16):
he's a kshatri. Because, youknow, armies are used for other
things other than killing.
They're using in peace time tokeep things settled, to do
things, to go in and helppeople. The Army Corps of
Engineers, goes in and buildsthings, helps with roads. So
there are good things that thearmy can do besides just
(44:36):
killing. Yet, none of that istalked about. No
Unknown (44:43):
that. And that's, that's something that we know
today. We know that there's alot of good, positive use for
that sort of manpower,
Nischala Joy Devi (44:55):
literally manpower, literal, literal
manpower. Say, when they wenthome, how many. People, did you
kill today? I don't think anywife would say that they would
instead look at their husbandsand their sons and look at their
arms. That they have their arms?
Do they have their hands? Dothey have all their fingers and
toes? That's probably what she'swaiting for to make sure that
(45:16):
her family is okay, her lovedones are okay not Oh, did you
kill this one and did youdecapitate that one? Did you do
this? They don't ask questionslike that. What can I do for
you? How can I make you feelmore comfortable? I cooked a
favorite meal for you. Can Imassage your feet? They must be
(45:38):
so sore after standing on thefor hours and hours. Yeah,
that's what we're talking about,bringing the humanness into it,
bringing the heart into it.
That's, I think, what we'retrying to say here.
Unknown (45:57):
This is exactly what we're trying to say, Bring the
heart into this opening chapter.
So thank you so much for joiningus in this episode of a woman's
Gita. We're just getting startedgoing through the shlokas. We
hope that you'll join us nexttime. Namaste. Namaste. You.
(46:17):
Namaste.
Thank you for joining us for awomen's Gita with Nischala Joy
Devi and Kamala rose, we wouldlike to express our gratitude
for the ongoing support for awomen's Gita podcast and book
from yoga gives back a nonprofit organization dedicated to
(46:40):
the underserved women andchildren of India, please join
us again for our next episodecoming soon. Namaste. You.
Namaste. Welcome to a Woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
Nischala Joy, Davey and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely. You
Nischala Joy Devi (00:43):
Namaste.
Welcome to a Women's Gita.
I'm Nischala Devi and I'm Kamalarose.
Kamala Rose (00:52):
I think it's a great contrast to what you said
about humility, Nischala that,that we have on one side, this
sort of macho posturing
Nischala Joy Devi (00:54):
Today we're going to go into Chapter One of
the Gita. And as we do that, Iwould like to just explore for a
few minutes the mystical aspectof it. I think most of us know
the war, and also we understandthat there's these incredible
(01:16):
teachings in the Gita. Themystical part is a little less
understood and even spoken of.
Firstly, let's point out thatthis is being narrated from a
distance away from thebattlefield. It is not someone
sitting at the battlefield.
(01:39):
Instead, they are far away. Andhis name is Sanjay, or Sanjaya,
however you choose. And he isnarrating what is happening in
the war scene for Josh trashtra,help me. Drishtra, vary
(02:00):
torashtra, and he's a visionary.
Sanjay is the visionary withpowers of clairvoyance and
clairaudience. Now I think thatwe really need to step back and
understand that even today, aswe are reading or talking about
the Gita, there is a certainamount of this clairvoyance and
(02:24):
this clear audience that we needto have. If we take the words
literally as they're written,it's one interpretation of the
Gita. If you take the power ofknowing that this has happened
(02:45):
1000s of years ago, yet is beingrecounted to us now, that in a
way, is very mystical, taking itin with your intellect is one
thing. If you can take it inwith your heart and your
(03:05):
intuition, you will understandthis book in a way that could
never be explained by anyone.
You know this. You know theseteachings. They've been with you
for 1000s and 1000s ofincarnations, yet now they're
(03:25):
coming to fruition. So bringingthe mystical aspect in is very,
very powerful. Also, I think ithelps us, at least it helps me
not to get into the dynamics ofthis war scene with its weapons
(03:46):
and its blood and gore, etcmore, taking it above, almost
hovering above the battlefield,And watching what happens, being
detached from it, beingable to not understand it, but
to experience the elation of theteachings in it. That's where
(04:10):
I'm going with it, and that'swhere, if you want to, you can
come with me, if not, chooseanother way and go from there.
There's other cast of characterstoo that we just like to point
out a few of them, to just makeit a little bit more
understandable who all thesepeople are. Kamala, can you take
care of that part? Absolutely.
(04:35):
Nischla, the opening verse ofthe Bhagavad, Gita, dharma.
Shaita, Kurukshetra, Sam aveta,yo yo. Saha, Mama ka Pandavas,
chaiva, Kim akur vata, Sanjaya.
What did they do? Sanjaya asks.
Dritara stra This is the openingline of the Gita and as.
Unknown (05:00):
So wisely pointed out, Sanjaya is observing the the
battle from two miles away, andhe's narrating to Dr Rashtra,
who is blind, right? Thesymbolism of drashtra being
blind is, of course, veryprofound. We know the ego is
(05:25):
blind. We know dirt torastralooked many looked away from
much of the malfeasance of his100 sons, the cowrivas that led
to precipitated this war, right?
So when we open up the Gita andwe read the very first verse, we
hear Dr Rashtra speak that whenthey were on the battlefield, my
(05:49):
sons and the Pandavas assembledtogether ready to fight. What
did they do? Sanjaya Tell mewhat happened. And sometimes
this last one that the last partof the verse, what did they do?
How did they behave? What wastheir behavior like on the
battlefield? And I think this ispart of framing this war. Is
(06:14):
there's an idea that there's aright way to have a war, and
there's a wrong way to have awar. We see an awful lot of this
today. A lot of wrong ways tohave war, a lot of disrespectful
ways that treat people verypoorly. This is really trying
to, in a way, say there's a wayto do this in a civilized
(06:39):
manner, is there? That's a greatquestion I'm reading from the
history books that told me,yeah.
Nischala Joy Devi (06:48):
And, you know, I just, and I asked this
question last time, and I'mgoing to repeat it. Is it
necessary to embed spiritualteachings in the story about a
war. And that really stays withme. It just sticks with me. It
(07:09):
is this amazing. Anotherscripture in South Indian Tamil,
Nadu. It's in Tamil, and mostpeople don't know of it, and
it's called the Charu girl. Andthe Charu girl was written by a
very humble Weaver. And thisWeaver was, it was of a class
(07:29):
that was not a Brahmin, and hesaw life from a weaver
standpoint. And one of thethings he said, he talked about
non injuring. It's a little bitarchaic language, but I want to
read it. He's and it also talksabout a man, so I'm going to
editorialize that also. I'mgoing to just say one who was
(07:53):
pure in the heart would notinjure others, even if they
could not obtain a princelyestate there, even if they
could, sorry, even if they couldobtain a princely estate
thereby. So here he's doing theopposite of what the Gita is
saying. He's saying, no matterhow much you're provoked, no
(08:16):
matter what you have to do, donot fight. That's not what we do
as spiritual people. And it goeson to say, even one another
injures you in hate, the personwho is pure in heart returneth
not the injury. So here again,brings in my doubt and my
(08:40):
confusion, because this bookalso written a long time ago and
but takes a little different, amore of a pacifist view, a more
of a person who has beenpracticing and holds Ahimsa At
the highest. So when I readthat, my heart is calm, when I
(09:04):
start hearing about war, myheart gets agitated, and I
really wonder. It makes mewonder, why can't we do this
without the war scene? And we'vestruggled with this. Kamala and
I, we've struggled with thisconstantly. What about the war?
(09:26):
How can we have war? So I'mgoing to leave it to the
listeners to figure this out forthemselves, because I think
every person has a little bit ofdifferent view. Some feel it's
necessary to be in a war,whether it's offensive or
defensive, and others feel, nomatter what, at no cost should
(09:50):
there ever be war. So I think wehave this within us. There's one
part of us that has a hard timewith the. Of killing. And
there's another part of us thatsays, well, they were wrong, and
people were wronged in this theytook their land. Nobody had the
(10:11):
freedoms they had before. Thatwas their job as princes to
fight in this way, even then,some of us still have doubt.
Unknown (10:21):
You reminded me of one of my favorite tellings of the
story of turn the other cheek.
This is the one told by therabbis and in the in the first
century, in the time of Jesus,it was customary that any Roman
slave could use their use theirright hand to backhand the left
(10:45):
side of any slaves face, righton their cheek, could walk up to
anyone and smack them. And sothe idea that you would turn the
other cheek says it's, it's likestanding up and saying, I'm not
your slave. Go ahead. Hit meagain with dignity. I call you
(11:07):
on your action, and I reject thevery premise that makes me a
slave and you a master. So Ithink we see examples of another
way of dealing with such typesof social inequities that lead
to war some have and some havenot, and this incredible fight
(11:34):
for resources that has dominatedhuman history. These are the
things that we've learned aboutsince you know about the history
of the world is one of war afterwar after war. I know you and I
are trying to imagine analternative scenario. And so I
(11:59):
think this idea of a third waywhere you can turn the other
cheek and retain dignity in anoppressive situation is a way of
winning, in a way, and saying,calling calling out violence for
exactly what it is. What do youthink
Nischala Joy Devi (12:19):
would have happened? If it was women
instead of men, would women havedone the same as always a
question I ask myself, and manyother people ask me, and then
when I say something, they'llalways bring up, well, did you
(12:40):
ever hear about this woman whodid violence, but it's, it's
it's less. You can't say it'sthe same. It's not the same. And
I question myself over and overand again, is it because we are
given the power to bring anotherhuman life into this world, and
(13:00):
we don't feel that we have theright to take one out, that our
DNA is geared toward survival,not toward destruction. I think
it's a rhetorical question thatwe can never answer yet, at the
(13:23):
same time, I have to keep it inthe background of my mind as we
go through this, because that'show I think. I don't think like
a warrior, because I'm not awarrior. I've never been a
warrior. I've always walked awayfrom fights. It's never been
(13:44):
something that I have wanted toengage in. So I can't help
wondering what would havehappened say, if the wives had
decided at a certain point we'renot letting you go back where,
if you come home, we're notgoing to be there. We're not
going to have dinner ready foryou. We're not going to wash
(14:06):
your clothes, unless you stopthis senseless battle. But yet,
where would they live? Becausetheir land was taken so nothing
is simple in this it's not asimple right or wrong, there's
too much inner woven in it, andI think that that's the real
(14:27):
conundrum. But because it'sbeing reinterpreted now, re
translated, if you like, by twoWestern women, we have to bring
who we are into it. We are notIndian men. 3000 years ago, it
was a very different world.
Then, you know, we have toremember, it's just been a
(14:49):
little over 100 years that womenhave actually had the right to
vote in this country.
Kamala Rose (14:57):
It's those are great points. Nischala.
Unknown (14:59):
We are looking at it in both the with the eyes of
modernity and technologicaladvance, and we are looking at
it through the eyes of women whohave both been raised in a world
where we were taught that wewould have certain opportunities
(15:21):
and rights given to us, theright to the right of choice, to
make our own decisions, theright to have an equal vote and
in politics that our votecounted, and that gives a
completely differentperspective. And I think this, I
(15:42):
think you're absolutely right,this has been one of the main
things that's kept the Gita awayfrom so many of the people that
I've spoken to. They just don'tunderstand the war narrative and
how it can coexist alongside thespiritual teachings.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:00):
So things. So this first chapter is a very
interesting chapter, and a lotof geeks that I've looked at
actually go over it. They don'teven, they don't even talk about
it, or they make a very simplesynopsis, and then they they
move on. But to me, it actuallysets the tone, and nothing is
(16:24):
put in there just because they,they didn't have any extra space
in those days, or their editordidn't say, Oh, wait, there's no
first chapter. They, they put itin because it was a reason for
it. And a lot of peoplecriticize it as being
superfluous. And I had the samething happen when I was writing
(16:46):
or compiling the the YogaSutras, the very first part, the
very first sutra, people said,Oh, they just just discarded it
doesn't mean anything, becausethey translate it in their mind
as now the exposition of yoga isabout to begin. Well, you know,
(17:06):
I agonized over that, and Ithought, why would you say if
someone walked into myclassroom, I wouldn't say, now
we're going to begin. It'sobvious. They're there and we
begin. So I really went throughit in my mind, what could they
possibly be saying here and howI translated it? Because I think
(17:28):
it's the most important thing weneed. And we're going to see
this in the first chapter of theGita. Also, there needs to be a
certain level of humility, ifthere's not a humility. And you
know, it's interesting. The rootof the word humility is very
interesting. It comes fromEarth. That means to be of the
(17:49):
earth, to be to be in the earthin that way. And I think, in our
terms, in a modern way of sayingit, we're grounded. We feel
grounded. And once you feelgrounded, there's a power to
that, that you can then move outinto the world from that
grounded place. If you're notgrounded, then the world bats
(18:12):
you around like a littlebeanbag, back and forth, back
and forth. So with humility,seemed to me to be the key to be
to learning it. And that goesback to a lot of the famous
stories you hear also inBuddhism, about going to the
master who's doing a teaceremony, and you hold out a
(18:35):
small cup for that master topour the the tea into. And you
see that the master is pouringit all over and it's running
down on the floor. And thestudent finally looks at the
master said, can't you see thiscup is full? And the master
goes, hmm, just like you arefilled. Go empty yourself and
(18:58):
come back, and I'll give you theteachings. That's the humility
that we're talking about. That'sthe idea that we're talking
about here, is having thathumility, not to get down and
have to bow at his feet, butknow that you don't know
everything. We don't know what'sgoing to happen. We project
(19:21):
what's going to happen. The onlything we know is what did happen
and what's happening at thismoment. None of us understand
the future in that way, yet wetry to project it. So here we
have, with humility, an openheart and mind, we embrace the
sacred study of yoga. And Ithink the same applies to here.
(19:44):
You have to have that humilityto open the Gita to be able to
say, teach me. I don't know I'mhere because I need to learn
you're not talking to theKrishna that we were talking
about. Last time you're talkingto a book, but that book has a
spirit. That book has an essenceto it. That book goes back 1000s
(20:10):
of years, and millions of peoplehave read it and experienced the
teachings and have lived theteachings. That's what you're
going into with that humility.
It's not just the book that youpicked up off the rack. This is
something very different. Sogoing in with that humility
makes everything different andsets the tone
Unknown (20:35):
so true. Nischala, without humility,
(22:20):
and statement of largesse, andyou know, meant to frighten the
opponent. And yet we're cominginto what we know to be
teachings on sublime states ofbeing so chapter one really
(22:45):
takes us from a transition fromthe Mahabharata into the
Bhagavad Gita. Chapter One isthat transitional chapter where
all of these characters from theMahabharata have now been
assembled on the battlefield.
We're wrapping up. We know theirstories from the Mahabharata. We
know about the blind king. We'veheard of Sanjaya. We certainly
(23:06):
know Duryodhana. We know whoArjuna is. We know who Christian
Krishna is. And many of these,many of these other warriors
have been included in the storyprior, which is the story of the
Mahabharata. So many of theopening verses are a listing of
(23:26):
who's who in ancient India,
Nischala Joy Devi (23:32):
the who's who of of the battle. That's it. So
I think I'm very curious. So 113says, Then conscious and kettle
drums, tabors and trumpets andcow horns suddenly blared forth,
and the sound was astounding. SoI picture this and all this
(24:00):
noise being made to us to apoint, and I'm just wondering,
what do you think thissignificance is of it, and why
did they put it in such clearterms? They could have just said
conscience were blown, or theycould have just said noise was
(24:21):
made to just at the start of thewar. You know, I think of
sometimes the horse racing, orthink car racing or thing, well,
car racing, they usually use aflag, but horse racing, they use
a bell, and then the horsesstart at that point. But here it
was much more than that. Itwasn't just a bell ringing or a
(24:43):
conch blowing. There was thisnoise that, this cacophony,
really, that started to comethrough, and I'm just wondering
what that did psychologically tothe Warriors.
Unknown (24:57):
Do you ever I agree? I i. Imagine it being dusty and
smelly, or you can smell thehorses. You can smell the
elephants. It's dusty in theair, the conch shells have
blown, which is the signal tobegin fighting. Right? The
kettle drums, yes, right. Ahuge, a huge cacophony of sounds
(25:20):
and animals and warriors beatingtheir shields. Well,
Nischala Joy Devi (25:26):
what's what was the purpose? Do you think of
that? What and why was it sosignificant that it's in the
first chapter having its ownspace in there,
Kamala Rose (25:40):
several verses of just naming the conch shell.
Yeah, and that's what
Nischala Joy Devi (25:44):
I'm wondering. And I'm thinking,
Could it be that they weretrying to puff get themselves
excited to do this? Becausethat's usually like when I think
of drumming, the drumming in thein the Army, Navy, or whatever
they're doing, because we don'tuse that anymore, except in
(26:04):
football games, but or parades.
But there must have beensomething to get these people
all excited.
Unknown (26:16):
So I think the idea that we are meant to have with
the sounding of the conch shellsis that the war has started. The
war has actually started. Andonce, once this whole hullabaloo
has has gotten rolling, the warhas actually begun. Now it's a
(26:42):
couple shlokas later that Arjunanow asks Krishna to drive my
chariot. Drive my chariot.
Chariot in between these twoarmies to the space in between
these two armies. I'm on verse21 Rishikesh Sam, tadam, Edom
(27:03):
Aha, mahipa te nayor, ubayormadye, that means in the armies
in between these two armies,right in the middle space in the
in between space of these twoarmies. Drive my chariot in
there, oh imperishable one.
(27:26):
Krishna, my drive my rata, mychariot in between these two
armies. Right? So the war hasstarted. Arjuna has asked
Krishna to drive the chariot inbetween the two armies, so he
can see, literally, the whitesof their eyes, to see the faces
(27:48):
of all of these soldiers, untilI behold these warriors battle,
hungry and arrayed with whom Imust fight in undertaking this
battle.
Nischala Joy Devi (28:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, there's a partthat says they're eager to
fight, and I always wonder aboutthat. I think people who are
eager to fight not may not bethe best people to fight. I
think it's better if people area little reluctant, because what
it says to me is they don'tunderstand that they're actually
taking lives, that peopleactually die here. And I think
(28:25):
it's a little too Cavalier, inmy opinion, that's that's how I
would feel about that thereneeds to be a little bit of a
reluctance in it in order forthat to happen. And maybe people
may disagree with thatcompletely, but it seems to me,
(28:45):
from a yogic standpoint, not tohave the rah rah and to say, you
know, this is something we haveto do. It's like it's, you know,
again, I have a very longhistory of being in medicine,
and it's the same kind of thing.
You really don't want a surgeonwalking into your room the night
(29:08):
before the surgery and actinglike a cheerleader. Go right, go
in there, and we're going to getthat cancer and we're going to
cut it out, and we're going todo you really don't want that.
You want someone calmer who'sready to do what they need to,
but not any more. And I thinkthis is, this is a problem that
(29:30):
begins to happen. People getoverzealous, and they they kill
even when they don't need to, orthey harm even when they don't
need to, and just doing onlywhat's necessary. And even, even
in medicine, I'll talk to topeople, and they'll say, oh,
yeah, I saw the surgeon, andthey want to do this. And I say,
(29:50):
it's a little radical. Can'tthey do a little less? Can't
they take less in what they'redoing? And then if you need to
take you do you do another.
Procedure. But once you takesomething out, once you kill
somebody, once you go on thebattlefield like that, you can't
take it back. It's finished.
It's gone. So even with thewording of it brings, brings
(30:16):
that kind of energy andawareness to make
Unknown (30:19):
I would agree so much Nisha, and one of the things
I've learned not in this recentperiod and studying the Gita
with you and really lookingcarefully at these questions,
one of the things I've learnedis that, you know, we're
presented with this war scenarioand all of the this idea that
(30:43):
the right, the right people needto sit on the throne, right?
This is a, I think this is acertain moral arc, or a certain
ethical consideration that youand I both find kind of foreign.
Right? We were in America, soit's not a monarchy. We don't
(31:03):
believe in that in the firstplace, right? But one of the
things I learned is that sometheorists argue that women have
a different ethical metric.
Women really see the worlddifferently. And so, you know,
this is presenting us with thestory of justice, right? The
(31:25):
right thing, what's the rightthing? The right people, the
right victors, the right personon the throne, right? And this
is where Arjuna is coming from.
This is where Duryodhana iscoming from. This is where all
of those battle, all of thewarriors on the battlefield are
coming from. They're fighting touphold something that's right.
(31:49):
And the whole setting of theMahabharata is is framed in this
way, what is the right thing todo for, you know, in varying
circumstances, and particularlyconcerning this war, there was a
theorist named Carol Gilliganwho who argued against some of
(32:11):
the moral measuring that hadbeen done. A sociologist named
Lawrence Kohlberg had determinedthat men seemed to have a higher
measurement of morality thanwomen, and they had given a wide
range of tests to men and womento say, to see, under these
(32:34):
circumstances, how do these boychildren, Girl children, young
adults, etc. How did theyrespond? And so Carol Gilligan
questioned this research bysaying, under what metric Are
you measuring? And it turns outthat kohlberg's theory was built
all around the upholding ofjustice, fairness, the right
(32:57):
thing happening, and that yes,men were much more aligned to
upholding what they determinedto be the right thing, but that
women, women came from an ethicof care, taking care of other
people, and the measurement ofthe, let's say the the
(33:21):
measurement of one's heart, orthe measurement of one's
morality, relationship toethics, could be seen in the way
they interact and take care ofother people. And I think that's
a lot of where we're coming fromthat we we're you know, both in
your experience in medicine, myexperience in working and, you
(33:46):
know, all doing an awful lot offeeding of people doing an awful
lot of work in the community,and, you know, just helping
people get something to Eat andsomething to drink and retain
their dignity. These are thingsthat are meaningful to us and to
(34:06):
a lot of the women that we know,where we find the the metric of
justice to be a little bitforeign.
Nischala Joy Devi (34:16):
I totally agree with that. And I think
there's one other thing thatcomes to me in this I'm not sure
it's gender related, but itseems to be more in that women
seem to look at the consequencesand what's going to happen
(34:36):
afterwards, Because when herfive year old comes home from
school and says, Johnny hit me,or Susie punched me, or whatever
it is. The role that she takesat that point is to say, Okay,
(34:56):
now what happens if I go to thiswell. Will happen if I go to the
principal? Will happen if I goto the person's child's mother
or father? What will happen? SoI think, I think that's sort of
built in in our DNA as women,because we understand
(35:16):
consequences when we'repregnant, if we do certain
things, we know that it dangersthe baby now. Now in modern
times, we know a lot more thanthey did. Then we know alcohol,
cigarettes, etc, does that, butalso fear, fright, all those
things can affect the unbornchild. So I think there's
(35:40):
something built in our DNA thatdoes that, and that does not
allow us to justify somethingthat we're trying to justify
here as a quote, righteous,unquote, bore because of the
consequences. That's where, youknow, and we we've put this
quote in the book because to me,it's very important, simple to
(36:04):
the victor, go the spoils.
Nobody wins in this nobody winsin war. There's always problems,
there's always destruction. Andin medicine, it's collateral
damage. And in war, it'scollateral damage. You go in
there and you cut something out,something else is going to be
affected. So this is, to me, alittle bit of, again, the
(36:26):
feminine coming in, in a waythat is not as obvious, but it's
the consequences. That's what Iwould look at. If someone came
to me and said they were goingto start a war, which they
wouldn't, but if be nice, ifthey did, I would that's the
first thing I would say to them,what are you going to gain? What
(36:49):
are you going to lose, and whatare the consequences of it?
Because to me, that's that youhave to look at the whole
picture, not just get excitedbecause the kettle drums are
banging or the consciousblowing. And I think that
particular aspect of it is whyit happened, why the conscious
(37:12):
blew and they blew for a longperiod of time. It wasn't short.
It was to get everybody psychedup for this war, get them ready
for that, that war, it's almostlike they what they do to a bull
before it goes into the BullRing. You know, they keep it
confined. And that's the lastthing a wild bull wants, is to
be confined. So when they openthat door, that bull shuts just
(37:36):
shoots out. And I think that'sreally what, and that's why I
brought up that sloka, becauseto me, it really feels like
they're trying to puff punt puffthese people up to do something
that is, I feel is against humannature, and really against
divine nature, to kill anotherhuman being. So we have to
(38:00):
override that for the for whatwe feel is a righteous reason in
order to do it.
Unknown (38:12):
And I think, too, in chapter one we, you know, we
have the posturing of the kettledrums, the big the big lead in
to the whole thing and justbeating the big chest, beating,
I know I'm beating my chest.
Here we have, we have thishappening, but it, I think we
should recognize too, this issomething that men experience
(38:35):
differently, a sense of, youknow, a sense of their own
violence differently than womenexperience that. I don't know
that I've ever been afraid of myown capacity in a dangerous
situation if someone insults me,we see it in the movies all the
time. You know, somebody justknocks into another man in a bar
(38:59):
and a whole fight escalates. Youknow, there, of course, there's
some women who would feel thesame way, but I think women in
general don't have to deal withtheir own inherent violence in
the same way that men do. And sowhen we read chapter one, we're
(39:20):
reading a listing of all ofthese men, Drupada and Chiquita,
all these great warriors fromthe the time period. But where
are the women? Where? Where'sthe rest of society? Yeah, of
where this is supposed to be arighteous war that is supposed
(39:42):
that needs to be fought. Butwhat, what I find interesting is
that as we follow the BhagavadGita, we're getting into this
very I this wonderful idea ofinterconnection and oneness. And
seeing this great big hole innature, but this very present
nature of women and lowerclasses that are not represented
(40:09):
here in the naming of the namingof those affected by this
Nischala Joy Devi (40:20):
action. Yeah, and also that they're killing
their kith and kin. These aren'tstrangers, like we can say,
Okay, this enemy, we're going tokill this enemy because they're
doing evil. We don't even knowwho they are, but that's what
we're doing. But these wereactually his relatives. And it's
(40:44):
much harder when you know them.
You know their family, you knowwhat they've done for you,
you've known who they were,you've you've had holiday meals
with them. It's a very differentkind of situation, and I'm
seeing killing a stranger mighthave passed the Dharma test, but
blood relatives and greatfriends caused another reaction,
(41:06):
and I think we have to keepremembering that too, that even
as children, we are taught todefer to our relatives that are
older and to have respect forthem, even if they're not of the
best moral standing. You know,we kind of forgive Uncle Fred
(41:30):
for doing what he did, or auntSusan for doing what she did,
because there are relatives andwe, we have that bond with them,
and now he's being sent out tokill them. So there's, there's
so much going on in this firstchapter that is not even being
(41:52):
spoken of.
Unknown (41:58):
He's seeing his he's seeing fathers and grandfathers
and gurus and maternal unclesand brothers and sons and
grandfathers and male friendsand father in laws and
companions, and as hecontemplates all of these
relatives arrayed on thebattlefield, filled with
(42:21):
infinite pity. He is, yeah, hehas a he has a change of heart.
It is. It's a differentsituation to be looking at those
who are our relations. You know,in these these last several
years, so many of us have foundthat our family, even our close
(42:44):
neighbors, are, wow. I thoughtwe were on the same page. Yeah,
we are not,
Nischala Joy Devi (42:53):
yeah. And I think when he looks at these
people, I mean, as anyone woulddo if I suddenly saw my uncle
come, I think, Oh, we hadThanksgiving together. Wasn't
that sweet? Or we had Christmastogether, or we had new year's
together, or we had Diwalitogether, whatever it was.
(43:13):
Because when you see someone,you remember the connection that
you have, and that connectionmakes it even more difficult to
do something like that. I mean,we have laws against it,
patricide, killing your father,you know. So there's, there's a
(43:33):
certain level that we're noteven touching yet of what's
going on here. And I think thekettle drums and all that are
just a distraction to take themind away from the fact that
they we are killing our kith andkin. And I don't think you can
(43:55):
get away with that. That'sthat's the reality of it. So it
is a despondency. It is adespair. He is going through
this because he does have atleast. What I'm seeing here is a
moral compass that he knows thatkilling isn't right, even though
(44:16):
he's a kshatri. Because, youknow, armies are used for other
things other than killing.
They're using in peace time tokeep things settled, to do
things, to go in and helppeople. The Army Corps of
Engineers, goes in and buildsthings, helps with roads. So
there are good things that thearmy can do besides just
(44:36):
killing. Yet, none of that istalked about. No
Unknown (44:43):
that. And that's, that's something that we know
today. We know that there's alot of good, positive use for
that sort of manpower,
Nischala Joy Devi (44:55):
literally manpower, literal, literal
manpower. Say, when they wenthome, how many. People, did you
kill today? I don't think anywife would say that they would
instead look at their husbandsand their sons and look at their
arms. That they have their arms?
Do they have their hands? Dothey have all their fingers and
toes? That's probably what she'swaiting for to make sure that
(45:16):
her family is okay, her lovedones are okay not Oh, did you
kill this one and did youdecapitate that one? Did you do
this? They don't ask questionslike that. What can I do for
you? How can I make you feelmore comfortable? I cooked a
favorite meal for you. Can Imassage your feet? They must be
(45:38):
so sore after standing on thefor hours and hours. Yeah,
that's what we're talking about,bringing the humanness into it,
bringing the heart into it.
That's, I think, what we'retrying to say here.
Unknown (45:57):
This is exactly what we're trying to say, Bring the
heart into this opening chapter.
So thank you so much for joiningus in this episode of a woman's
Gita. We're just getting startedgoing through the shlokas. We
hope that you'll join us nexttime. Namaste. Namaste. You.
(46:17):
Namaste.
Thank you for joining us for awomen's Gita with Nischala Joy
Devi and Kamala rose, we wouldlike to express our gratitude
for the ongoing support for awomen's Gita podcast and book
from yoga gives back a nonprofit organization dedicated to
(46:40):
the underserved women andchildren of India, please join
us again for our next episodecoming soon. Namaste. You.
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