Neutrality in a Fiery World: Yoga, Desire & the Power of Detachment

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In this deep and heartfelt episode of A Women’s Gita, Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose take us into the heart of Chapter 2 of the Bhagavad Gita, exploring verses 62–64—a section rich with psychological insight and practical wisdom.

Together, they examine how desire leads to attachment, how attachment breeds anger and delusion, and how yogic practices—especially the cultivation of neutrality and tapas—help us navigate our inner and outer worlds with grace.

Key topics in this episode include:

• The chain reaction from desire to suffering in the Gita
• The modern relevance of sense objects and attachment
• Neutrality vs. detachment—what’s the difference?
• The concept of tapas as inner heat and transformation
• Practical ways to stay centered in an overstimulated world
• Navigating female competition through yogic sisterhood
• The cost of anger—from heart health to spiritual clarity

Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or new to these teachings, this episode offers timely reflections on how to be in the world, but not of it.

Episode Transcript

Lilavati Eberle (00:02):
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy Devi and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to

(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.

Kamala Rose (00:42):
Namaste. Thanks for joining us for our episode today
of a woman's Gita Podcast. I'mKamala rose

Nischala Joy Devi (00:51):
and I'm Nischala Joy Devi today, we

Kamala Rose (00:55):
are continuing our discussion with in chapter two,
with one of the most practicalparts of Krishnas philosophical
advice on the battlefield ofKurukshetra to the Prince
Arjuna. Right today we arepicking up on chapter two, verse

(01:16):
62, desiring sense objectscauses attachment. From that
attachment, personal desire isborn. From personal desire
arises anger. And thiscontinues, right? So we're going

(01:37):
to get into the discussion ofthis here with nischala, and
we're continuing this, thisdiscussion of, how is the yogi
to be in the world, right? Howis one to steady their wisdom
and live in the world? AndKrishna offers us this, this
idea that when we desire senseobjects, this causes attachment.

(02:01):
We become stuck to them. Andfrom that attachment, personal
desire is born, and it's frompersonal desire that anger
arises. Nishala, we're no we'reno strangers to this verse, No,

Nischala Joy Devi (02:18):
not at all.

Kamala Rose (02:20):
Is anyone, is anyone?

Nischala Joy Devi (02:24):
And then we get to 263, from anger comes
delusion. So we're, I alwaysthink of this as a spiral, one
happens, and then the nexthappens, and then the next
happens. And we don't evenrealize we kind of tumble down
into this abyss. Almost fromanger comes delusion. From

(02:46):
delusion comes loss of memory.
From loss of memory comesdestruction of discrimination.
And from destruction ofdiscrimination, one loses the
their ability to find peace. Youknow, I think if you read that
enough times, like even using itas a meditation, you start to
realize the pattern. And thenperhaps the next time you see

(03:11):
something that you start to getattached to it, it may just
cause you to stop for a momentand think, Is this something
that I want to do? And it can beanything from a piece of cake or
pie or a latte or whatever, to aperson that you're attached to,

(03:33):
or a plant or an animal or a waythat you look, or whatever it
is. So this attachment seems tobe the seed that creates all the
other aspects. And the effect isit keeps us from knowing who we

(03:56):
are. And I think we have to keepgetting back to that to remember
all this is just for one thing.
All. Everything we're talkingabout here go stems back to one
thing, and that's, do you wantto know yourself? And if you do,

(04:16):
the attachment has to beacknowledged, and as much as
possible, a detachment has tohappen from it, or at least a
neutrality. Sometimes we can'treally detach from it, but we
can become more neutral to it.
And I think this is really whatwe're talking about here, and

(04:37):
why you spend so much time onit, because it's such an
important aspect. And then 264gives us a but it's always nice
to have a butt in there, but theyogi who has the senses under
control. So here they'rerelating this whole i. Idea of

(04:57):
non attachment back to thesenses, because this is, this is
the the heading or the topicwe're talking about. It says,
but the yogi who has the sensesunder control can move among
sense objects, so we can stillenjoy them. And I think this is,

(05:20):
this is something that peopleget confused about. They think
the yogi doesn't enjoy life orfood or sense objects. Sometimes
they can enjoy it even morebecause there's no attachment to
it. I always think of the theincident, and we, I think we've
all had this you go to yourfavorite restaurant and you have

(05:43):
in mind already the dish thatyou love that the most, that
they have there. And you sitdown and you don't even need the
menu. You just say to them, Idon't need the menu. And they
say, Okay, what would you like?
And you say, whatever that is,and then they get this look on
their face and they're sorry,I'm sorry we don't have that

(06:06):
tonight, and we're so attachedto the idea of having that
particular dish that even whenthey hand us a menu with
hundreds of items on it, wecan't find anything that we want
because we're still attached towhat we can't have. Now that's a

(06:26):
very simple example, but I thinkit happens to us over and over,
every day, and it also happensin our spiritual practice.

Kamala Rose (06:38):
A couple points that you brought up, first of
all, the importance ofneutrality, and I think that's
really important when we'reunderstanding these shlokas and
and I think the way you'redescribing here with this
example of not getting what youwant or not getting what You
expect, is, you know, this isone of the ways that it's

(07:03):
revealed to us that even thoughso many have the, you know, you
think I'm a I'm a yoga person,I'm such a good person, I'm not
attached. You know, sure, Imight like one thing on the
menu, but I don't haveattachments. And yet you're
upset when something happens itdoesn't go your way. I think we

(07:24):
can look at this idea of senseobjects and the attachment that
arises from this as being a wayof describing ways that we
become fixed mentally and expectthings right to be your way,
right? We love the comfort ofour own homes because they are,

(07:46):
you know, they're your way. Somepeople have a hard time even
going out because their ownhabits, you know, their own
foods, their own things are. Youknow, these are ways we're
attached not not that. I expectthat all you know, you know, I
want that pair of shoes. I'vegot to have them. Yeah, right,

(08:08):
I'm sure this is one part. But Ithink the internal part of being
attached is about opinions,right areas where, oh yeah, we
can become very self righteousabout us. This is the right way.
This is a the language ofattachment. You're stuck to.

(08:29):
You're fixed on the way thingsshould be. And what you can feel
that sort of inflammation in thechest, that kind of puffing up
of the feeling of personaldesire, and not necessarily for
acquisitions, right, just forthings being my way, yeah. And,

Nischala Joy Devi (08:52):
you know, there's anybody like that, huh?

Kamala Rose (08:55):
Who would, who would be like that? I know,
certainly not these two firesigns, no, right? But here we
have this, this acknowledgementof myself as a person, and the
desire to have things the way Iwant them to be my way, right?
And it's when that is not met,whether you know, situations

(09:19):
arise that make that feeluncomfortable, right? Anger
arises. This is the recipe foranger, and this is such a
practical way of seeing thisthat, like every single living
being on planet earth today, ifyou do not get what you want,

(09:40):
you will deal with a flaring ofrajas internally. You'll, you'll
feel the heat, right? And Ithink, just to tie in what you
said about neutrality, I thinkthis is an important time to
talk about tapas, right? So. Sothe yogi really is acknowledging

(10:03):
the personal desire butwithholding from it, right? This
causes a rub or a tension, andthis friction of what you want
and what you are abstaining fromhaving, is the heat of tapas,
and this is really the remedy.
Is we have to withdraw. We haveto see clearly from the buddhi,
the higher mind, that you justcan't have everything you want.

(10:28):
You cannot change conditions tobe the way you want them to be.
This is the root of suffering.
This is why all beings on planetEarth suffer as a natural state
of being, when we acknowledgethat, when we acknowledge the
way we always step in tosuffering and despair and

(10:52):
disappointment, we can take somecontrol and responsibility for
it. And I think this is whatthese verses really show us that
there's a very practical degreeof responsibility that we can
take once we understandourselves. And this is the core
of yoga practice, learning howto work with the body, mind,

(11:16):
feelings, thoughts, emotions,cloudy days, sunny days, as a
form of tapas, as heating up thesystem, burning out the
impurities. And so this is whywe practice. This is why we show
up on in our practice is to totransform this very natural part

(11:38):
of every human being into into adifferent type of perspective,
coming back to neutrality, Ithink you again so rightly
brought this up that we don'tfight desire just by, you know,
we abstain from that, but we'vegot To do something with that

(12:01):
fire, right? And you can't just,right? How do we put out a fire
with Earth, right? With sand,right? We've got to find a way
to neutralize it. You can't blowit out. That feeds it, right?
We're not going to do acounteraction, right? We're
going to just neutralize it andlearn to find a less inflamed

(12:27):
feeling inside yourself. And Ithink, I think that's the way to
deal with anger, is by puttingthe fire out just with Earth,
with neutrality.

Nischala Joy Devi (12:45):
So you mean throwing a tantrum doesn't help?
Oh, darn. You know, I guess Ilearn a lot by looking at
children. And I think this is areally perfect one to look at,
say, a two or three year old whohas developed, at that point a
desire, but not the ability toreckon with the desire if it is

(13:11):
not fulfilled, and that's whyyou would you'll see two and
three year olds on the floor ofa department store with their
horrified mothers looking overthem throwing a major tantrum
because they can't get it. Well,picture us some years later.
Maybe we're not laying on thefloor of the department store,

(13:34):
but in our minds, we may bethrowing a tantrum because of
something, and anytime thathappens, and bringing in tapas,
I think was is really soimportant for us to understand
that as a human being, both inbody and mind, we are constantly

(13:57):
purifying so things are comingout of us. That's the constant
tapas that we have, that thecells are rejuvenating. They're
dying, they're being sloughedoff the mind. Also, we start
having things come out of ourmind, especially in sleep, that
we have no idea where it camefrom. And the idea is to just

(14:20):
let it go, not to try to holdonto it. And this is where I
think, again, in the sutras,when it talks about tapas, it
really explains to us it's apurification process, and in
that purification, what we'releft with is is purity, because

(14:46):
that's from purification. Andeven giving the the example of a
silversmith, which I thinkreally brings it back to my
mind, when they take silver andthey hold it over a flame. Them,
and it starts to purify. Howdoes the silversmith know that
the silver is now pure? And whatthey say, which is so Bhagavad

(15:11):
Gita, it says very clearly thatthey know it's pure when they
can see their own reflection init. And to me, that's just such
a perfect example of tapas,because, and I think it's become
almost a common word that we usein yoga. Oh, I'm going through

(15:33):
this tapas now. I'm I'm havingthis tapas. And even the
practices bring us that heat,that tapas of purification. But
if we don't remember that we'reaccepting the purification,
we're accepting the tapas,sorry, as a means for
purification, we start to thinkthat the world is against us. We

(15:57):
don't remember that we're we'regoing through this for a reason,
because as we come out of it,we're going to be glowing. We're
going to be more beautiful. It'salmost like a woman in labor,
you know, she goes through thisunbelievable pain, but what she

(16:19):
gets at the end that's thereward, and I think it's like
that with us. We're a lotcalmer, we're a lot kinder. You
start to look at the littlethings, not necessarily the big
things, and also, and I'm notagain sure here, but the word

(16:40):
that we use for attachment in inthe sutras is really, it's, it's
really not attachment. Sorry,not attachment. Non attachment
is really a vida, yeah, andvairagya is not just detaching,
but it's actually not seeingcolor, not seeing the

(17:02):
difference, actually havingsomething colorless that we take
and we hold, and that means thatwe don't put a value on it, we
just go back to that neutralpoint. And if we can return
there after every event, we havemore of a chance of staying in

(17:23):
that place and understandingthat this too shall pass it, but
it depends on how we judge itand how we live with it. So the
more that we accept it as ameans for purification, I think
the more we're able to keep oursenses under control, like

(17:44):
they're talking about in theGita, and then we can move 264,
says, but the yogi who has thesenses under control can move
among sense objects free fromattachment or aversion. So I
think we have to bring that backinto the aversion, because

(18:04):
people think if they're averseto something, then they're not
attached to it. But it'sactually the opposite. When I
was in the living in themonastery, public display of
affection was not encouraged ifI can. That's a mild way of
putting it, and but some of usare just naturally friendly

(18:27):
people, and we just like to hugpeople. It doesn't have anything
to do with anything sexual orgender related, or it's just we
love people. And there was onemonk that she was so afraid to
get involved in any way. Shewould wear a button that said,
Don't hug me. And what this did,and I watched people go up to

(18:50):
her and start to hug her and seethe button and immediately back
off. It almost caused a fear inthem that, to me, is the
aversion side. You're going toofar with it. So what if you
don't want to hug, put someonesay, I'm sorry. I just don't,
I'm not a hugger. That's allsomething like that. Or you hug

(19:12):
them and then you leave them,it's gone, it's finished. So
this is such a crucial part forus to analyze. What are we
attached to? How minute is ourattachment that we like this
kind of sugar in our coffee ornot that kind of sugar? I've

(19:33):
seen people throw tantrumsbecause they have the wrong
sugar or the wrong milk. It'snot oat milk, it's almond milk
instead. So all this is all inthere,

Kamala Rose (19:46):
in talking about our personal preferences. And
you know this rarely, rarely dopeople examine the interior
space of one's personality in anobject. Of way. And I think this
is really what the Gita isasking us to do in chapter two,
is to to hold space for a placeof examination. You know, as

(20:12):
nice of a person as you are, we,we all have preferences and
attachments. It's not that,it's, it's a this, a
psychological, spiritual depthdive, looking under the hood to
see, how does it work, right?
How does it work between you andthe world and other people and
the greater sense of mysterythat we're all a part of, that

(20:36):
we in this chapter concentrateon as the soul, as the self,
right? As you said, this is whatit's all about. This is the
subject we're exploring, is howto know that, how to know that
self, how to realize that selfin daily life, right? I you know
when you were speaking this Julywas really it was very

(20:59):
outstanding. How you know thismessage in the Gita, you know,
as contrasted with the YogaSutras, right? This Krishna is
giving us this image, that of ayogi who has their senses under
control and is moving amongstsense objects, right, is moving
in the world, right, with sensesunder control, and is able to be

(21:22):
free from pre preferences orright attachments by way of
desire, right? Gotta have it oraversion. Gotta stay away from
it. Yeah, exactly. This is howwe can live in the world, in
peace. And I think this is oneof those really important verses

(21:44):
that says the yogi is able to bein the world, but not of the
world, right? And those, and Ithink you're so right to focus
on this just a little bit longerthat I I think that aversion is
one of the more powerful waysthat we are attached to the

(22:04):
world. And, you know, we caninternalize that so much that,
you know, the way I read theworld, the way I see the world,
the situations I encounter, whatI see on television, what I
learn of about the world, right?
That can trigger. We call ittriggering. This is an aversion,

(22:29):
right? Triggering would go intofear too. Fear causing that the
outside world cause such aninterior response that what
happens? The cycle starts right,the that anger arises, and out
of anger comes delusion. Andthis very important part, that

(22:50):
out of this delusion, what isthe delusion about, is you
forgot who you were, and youthought you were that anger, and
you went all in to the drama andthe and the hormones and the hot
chemistry in your body, andyou're ready to step up on a
soapbox, right? You've got a lotto say about that thing. Yes,

(23:15):
right? So then what happens? Youlose your memory. You forget,
yeah, I forgot. What I forgot Iwas doing tapas and purifying
right and discrimination, theability to even tell this is
lost right. We lose the abilityto find peace.

Nischala Joy Devi (23:36):
We think we're right is the other thing.
And I think what I see a lot issomeone will come to me with an
issue, and they'll say, this isreally disturbing my peace. And
okay, let's let's take aconcrete thing, like the news.

(23:58):
Let's take the news. So at timesit gets better or gets worse or
worse, or let's put it likethat, it's really never better,
but worse or worser. Now we havea choice. Every television I've
ever seen, every computer I'veever seen, every radio I've ever

(24:19):
seen has an off switch. Theydon't just stay on all the time.
It's our decision whether welisten, etc. So the attachment
comes at least a lot of what I'mseeing when people feel I should
listen to it, because I shouldbe informed. Here's that should

(24:43):
again, I should be informedabout what's going on. The
problem is if you take inanything, especially news that
may not be so uplifting with amind that has not been purified.
Right? It makes it worse. So theability to have a clear mind and

(25:09):
to understand what's going onfrom all sides is not something
that's available to most people.
So what happens? They listen toit, they make it into something.
And then it goes right throughwhat you were just talking
about, the the loss of memory,the delusions so that, and then
the fear this is going tohappen. This is going to happen.

(25:32):
When you listen to a newsprogram, I would say there's
probably a huge percentage, andI'm not going to give you a
number, because I don't wantpeople to say, oh, it's not that
high. But there's a percentageof it that is a projection. It
has nothing to do with what isactually happening or happened.

(25:53):
And the we take this then and itcauses fear. So when I say to
somebody, is it disturbing yourmeditation? And they say, Oh, I
can't meditate with this goingon at that moment coming out of
our own mouths. Stop, listen towhat we just said, and then look

(26:16):
what is your priority? Can youlisten to that and still do
practices and still be a kind,loving person? Or if it stops
you from meditating, you've justlost the ground that you've
already gained. You You just,you just gave up the greatest

(26:37):
gift in your life that you couldhave had. And this is why, I
think traditionally, monks havealways withdrawn from the world,
because it's very difficult totake that in at the same time,
especially now with 24 hour newscycles, you can turn on the

(26:57):
computer or your phone anytimeand get the news. So this is
all, I think, with it, eventhough, 1000s of years ago, when
this Gita was written, there wasno computer, there was no cell
phones, etc, etc. But what ifwe're taking that idea of
realization of the true self,and that's what we want to do.

(27:21):
We've have to stop the outsideworld from intruding. We have to
let it be there for invitationonly when we're inviting the
world into our life, not thatit's bombard us.

Kamala Rose (27:39):
And I think you make a good distinction there
between what it sounds like whenit's when it's taking your
practice away, when it when itis when it's gone to the point
of obscuration of the self, andall you can see is the anger and
frustration, right? That's athat's a that's a way of being

(28:02):
honest. It doesn't have, itdoesn't say, like my spiritual
life is costing me engagement inthe world. No, we're talking
about mental states, right? Andas a yogi, be monitoring those,
knowing what kind of an effectit has on me. Mean, it doesn't
mean that we don't engage in theworld. In fact, that's what the

(28:22):
Gita is all about. Is now takeup your bow, Arjuna and fight
right? We stay engaged. We haveto learn how we can stay engaged
even when outer situations causeconfusion like this and right?

(28:45):
So we, you know, we can. We canlook at the, you know, the
cultural situations that we allshare, right? We can also see
that we have personal situationslike this. We have crazy makers
in our lives that, no, no, youcan't pay you can't get involved
in that. It makes you crazy,takes up all your time. You

(29:05):
forget about your practices, andyou self righteously march into
the fray of the dramas of life,battles of the dramas of life,
in a way that's the Duryodhanapart of ourselves who is just
stubborn and kind of enjoysbeing angry and is not

(29:27):
interested in doing anypractices that lead to the self,
right? But we are, if we're tounderstand ourselves as a yogi,
we can look through the eyes ofArjuna, who's trying to be
better, right? Trying to he is.
He's trying so hard to bebetter. And I think this where
it's so appropriate, what yousaid, Nisha, that you know, we

(29:47):
you can be in the world, and youcan be engaged, and you can come
to the point where this doesn'tderail you. Yeah, the same way
we, if we look at that on theleft. Level of attachment of
raga, right? So we're theduality of raga and Deva SHA
here, attachment and aversion,right? We could say the same,

(30:07):
you know, a wise person couldwalk through, you know, an ice
cream store with, you know,fancy clothes and jewelry and
all the stuff you want with AFistful of Dollars. You know,
could walk with equipoisethrough that and just be like,
look at all the beautiful thingshere. I can enjoy them, but I

(30:30):
don't have to hoard it. Allright, this is a state of mind
where we can handle being in theworld, but we've got to know
what our triggers are. You know,don't, don't go to a food court
at a mall when you're hungry andyou're you're sad, you know
things like this. Don't, don'tknow yourself. It's the basic

(30:51):
message here and know ourselvesin relating to an ever changing
outer world that is reallypresenting us every day with
with aversive situations, andthat the Gita is message here,

(31:12):
chapter two focuses on Thisimportant message that what
happens on the outside, calledsenses and sense objects, right?
Called the world on the outside,it absolutely creates your
internal state of mind,absolutely. You know, these two

(31:33):
are symbiotically linked, andvery rarely does one consider
the relationship between theouter world and the inner states
of mind. And if we can takenothing else away from chapter
two, in this kind of big picturediscourse on reality,

(31:54):
understanding the mind and theyogi who's in it, but not of it,
right? If we can take one thing,it's Krishna proposes that we
live in the world in a way wherewe engage in self inquiry, and
if we know the self, if we if wehave the self as the goal, as

(32:17):
the reality that's already here.
Just sometimes you're, most ofthe time, you're thinking about
something else, right? We'rebuilding new habits to realize
the Self. That's what yoga is,right? This is why we practice.

(32:37):
Is to purify. Yoga is tapas.
It's a method of heating up thesystem with practices so that we
can see clearly who you reallyare without the self. Why would
you? You wouldn't need to dopractices? Yeah, other than to
know the self, it right so,

Nischala Joy Devi (33:00):
and most people don't. I think that's the
other thing, what what we'redoing, what we're talking about,
is something that most of theworld does not engage in, and if
you try to entice them, it comesto mind when I was in the
cardiac study, because we had toconvince these people that had

(33:23):
no interest in yoga at all. Tothem, it was something you ate
with cereal in the morning. Itwas as a white cream yogurt was
the same as yoga. That's that'swhere we started. And these were
mostly men, and they really hadno interest in this at all, so
trying to show this to them ishow when they get angry, it

(33:47):
affected their heart be and whydid they get angry? Because
there were a tape attached to anidea or an object. That's why
people get angry. You think it'syour right to be right, or your
team should win, or whatever itis, how trite and insignificant

(34:08):
we make these huge things intobig deals, and we try to show
them that this has An effect onyour heart, even as simple as
taking your pulse after deeprelaxation to see how it's
changed. So I think it'simportant for those of us who

(34:31):
practice to really practice onevery level, to be able to bring
in the idea that let me look atthis before I do this. How is it
going to affect me if I go outfor pizza at 11 o'clock at
night, how is that going toaffect my sadhana the next

(34:52):
morning? If you say I don'tcare, then great, you've made a
decision. But if you do care,you. Have to adjust when you
have the pizza, so maybe you'dhave it at six o'clock instead
of 11 o'clock, and see how thatgoes. But we're always like you
were saying that Yani yoga, thatthat ability to observe

(35:15):
ourselves and to see cause andeffect, it's so basic, it's an
all of nature, cause and effect.
Here we are looking, if I takethis, how does it affect if I
just had a fight with my friendand I sit beside in the altar?
Matter of fact, it's in theBible, Jesus even says that
don't come to the altar to prayto Me until you've made friends

(35:40):
with your brother. Why would hesay something like that? He says
it because he knows if you sitdown and even in front of a
beautiful altar, no matter howbeautiful you make it, your
mind's gonna sing. He said this.
He said that he wasn't rightabout that, I was right, your

(36:02):
mind is already disturbed. So tocalm the mind, and I think this
is behind everything thatKrishna is saying, if the mind
is not clear, if it's not pure,everything that comes in will be
caught in this snare ofattachment, it will be caught in

(36:23):
this snare of aversion, becausethat's the way it's been doing
it all along. What we're tryingto do is the hardest thing you
can do to control the mind likethat. Or I won't even use the
word control. I would use moreof a term direct the mind,
because people have a hard timewith the word control, and I

(36:43):
understand why. But if we'redirecting it, put it in a
positive place, change it. Andthat's where a lot of the
practices come in. So and theother thing I would say, while
you're doing practice. If any ofthis comes in, don't let it

(37:05):
close the door. Don't allow itto come in to your meditation,
to your asana practice, to yourpranayama, because what it will
do if you bring the negativethought in the practices enhance
everything, even the negative.
So I think we have to be reallycareful where our mind is, and
that's why, I thinktraditionally, they say, get out

(37:27):
of bed, don't talk to anyone,get washed, do your cleansing,
and go right into the meditationroom, because otherwise, if you
start looking at your phone ifyou, of course, they didn't say
that 5000 years ago, but now, ifyou look at your phone or you
start to talk, then that's whatyou're going to be meditating

(37:48):
on.

Kamala Rose (37:51):
Really, really important right away, when the
mind is clear. And inparticularly, I know, in regards
to pranayama, I think that's oneof the reasons that pranayama is
not taught so much, is becauseit is so powerful, and ordinary
people really struggle with, youknow, you it's hard to come in,

(38:13):
out of work to a yoga class andget ready to do a period of
pranayama, because it's so hardto keep that, to keep those
attachments at bay, right? Thethings that just keep rolling
through your mind, you can'tstop thinking about it. You take
the past into the present momentwith you, right? And, you know,

(38:39):
I think, I think reading some ofthese verses from, you know,
from that feminine perspective,I think you're so right to bring
in heart health, right? How,how? What is the cost of anger
and self righteousness? Oh, wecan see it. You can see it's
measurable. Yeah, you know, so,so this really practical part of

(39:05):
the Bhagavad Gita, you know, aswomen, these are the places
where we're petty and we'recompetitive with each other, and
we can, I think there's a levelwhere we can, in our self
examination, identify how weinternalize patriarchy in a way

(39:26):
that, you know, the competitionbetween women is always notable,
right? I think, I think one ofmy big takeaways from the Gita
is that we are supportive toeach other. We once we realize
that this is the sort of habitthat's formed over generation

(39:49):
after generation aftergeneration of women being
oppressed through patriarchy, iswe fall into a competition.
Mission for resources with otherwomen. And you know, today we
live in a modern world. We don'tthink about such primitive
things. But you know, in in manylifetimes, if we believe in

(40:13):
reincarnation, we it would havecome down to the prettier women
would have been fed, right? Andso on and so on and schooled.
And we see this across theworld, that girls are often not
vaccinated, they're not sent toschool. They're the competition

(40:34):
for resources is fierce, and aswomen reading the Gita today, I
think this is notable in thisthat we have a way to do
pratipaksha Bhavana to reversethat, and instead of feeling
competitive with each other, wecan consciously support each

(40:55):
other, right? We can say no tothe patriarchy. We can outsmart
the patriarchy by being kinderto each other and supportive of
other women. And I found formyself that, you know, you you
brought up the idea of this kindof core idea, how this is always

(41:18):
translated, that the senses arebrought under control, right?
You know, I would say the thesenses are trained, right?
They're just, they're trained tonew patterns, to new habits. You
You know me as a dog person, andI've had the opportunity to
train many dogs, many stubborndogs, and you get into this

(41:42):
world of habits and making newhabits, and the way we make new
habits, and you know, for a dog,this is learning to teach them
how to be in the midst of aworld that's full of sense,
objects that they want all thetime they can smell 10,000 times
stronger than you can they canhear, you know, miles away,

(42:06):
their senses are so acute. Youknow, you don't smell what's
underneath that rock, but theydo and right? And you are when
you're walking, I'm you're verymuch like the buddhi the higher
mind, who's got to keep thebigger picture and say, Keep
walking, keep walking. Leave itright and tell those senses,

(42:31):
let's keep walking. Let's notstop let's not roll in it, let's
not pick it up. Let's just keepgoing. Keep moving. And you
know, this is how I get a senseof this. And for women, you
know, to do something different,to stick it to the man, let's
help each other. Yeah,

Nischala Joy Devi (42:51):
I agree 100% I mean, what you're saying is so
true. And I never understoodthat, because if there's not a
sisterhood, then why are wewhat? Why are we doing all this?
There has to be some connectionwith hearts and understanding,

(43:14):
understanding how we're done. Ijust wanted to make one analogy,
because I was smiling when youwere talking about women. And
again, being in the medicalfield all these years, I saw how
women are dissed in the medicalfield. Anything that that they

(43:35):
can come in that's not obvious,is considered their mind and
recent, well, fairly recently,within the last so many years,
they actually found that whenthere was there's something
called Broken heart syndrome,and it was always poo pooed,

(43:55):
because the women came in withit, and they said, or sometimes
they were found actually deadfrom it. And they said, Oh, it's
just an emotional thing. And adoctor in Japan actually found
that the heart change changesshape. When it's in distress, or
even in happiness and joy, itchanges, literally changes

(44:19):
shape. And so if the heart doesthat physiologically, can change
shape. Imagine what it does on asubtle level to have these
encounters and have things thatdon't don't work well for us. So
I think that we're reallyhitting something important

(44:41):
here, each person has to maketheir own decision. How much do
you want to be in the world andin the world, not of the world?
And how much do you want to beof the world? Do you think that
you have enough power? Or atthis stage of your life, to

(45:03):
change things. If you do goahead, the world could use some
changing, but if it's just goingto aggravate you, cause you to
have aversion or attachment andkeep you from the sacredness of
your own practice, you reallyneed to ask yourself, why?

Kamala Rose (45:29):
And that's how the world needs many Yep, right. As
someone who's entering, kind ofre entering the world, is this a
delicate balance of knowing howmuch you can take right what is
what is right effort, what isright participation for you, and
I think so right to to bringthat up and ask us as Yogis to

(45:52):
just be honest with ourselves,there's no right and wrong,

Nischala Joy Devi (45:56):
no right or wrong. It's just what do you
want. And then when you decidewhat you want, don't criticize
others for what they arechoosing. Because again, and I
keep bringing this up becausechit didha, very few are
courageous enough to really wantto embrace this path completely.

Kamala Rose (46:20):
That's a great place to end. Nishchala Devi,
thank you so much for yourwisdom today.

Nischala Joy Devi (46:26):
Thank you.
Kamala rose, this was fun,always

Kamala Rose (46:31):
delightful to discuss. Bhagavad Gita from a
woman's perspective. Thanks toall of our listeners, thanks for
being here, and we'll talk toyou next time. Namaste. Namaste.

Lilavati Eberle (46:47):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nishla Joy Devi and Kamalarose. We would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a woman's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.

(47:11):
Namaste. You.