April 27, 2025 • 54 mins
Dive deep into the transformative power of Karma Yoga in this enlightening episode of A Women's Gita Podcast. Hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose explore the profound art of selfless action, offering a modern, feminine interpretation of this timeless spiritual practice.
Key Topics Discussed:
- The true meaning of Karma Yoga: Skill in action
- Understanding karma as a neutral, interconnected energy
- Different types of karma: Agami, Parabda, and Sangita
- The importance of serving without expectation of reward
- Transforming personal experiences into meaningful service
- The role of meditation and equanimity in Karma Yoga
- Practical applications of Karma Yoga in daily life
- The interconnectedness of individual and collective actions
Join us as we unravel the spiritual wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita, exploring how everyday actions can become a path to personal growth, compassion, and universal connection. Whether you're a yoga practitioner, spiritual seeker, or simply curious about living a more meaningful life, this episode offers profound insights into the art of selfless service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lilavati Eberle (00:02):
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy, Davey and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Namaste, thanks for joining us today for a woman's
Gita Podcast. I'm Kamala rose
Nischala Joy Devi (00:48):
and I'm Nischala Joy Devi. Today we
Kamala Rose (00:51):
are continuing our dialog on Chapter Two, since
it's so packed, really anoverview of the whole Bhagavad
Gita. Today we're talking aboutkarma yoga, one of the yogas of
the Bhagavad Gita that dealswith our action in the world the
(01:12):
way we think about our action inthe world. And as we're starting
here on verse 50, really theinterior, the interior point of
equanimity in our minds thatenables us to approach our lives
(01:32):
in a way where we have anequanimity or an equality
towards All. Nishala, would youlike to start with verse 50?
Nischala Joy Devi (01:43):
Sure 250 the practice of yoga frees one from
karma. Therefore, devoteyourself to yoga. Yoga is skill
in action. I think this isprobably one of the famous
(02:04):
definitions of yoga from theBhagavad Gita. And it's
interesting that it's talkingabout action, karma, meaning
action. And sometimes I thinkpeople who practice these
different yogas think that karmayoga isn't as important as some
(02:28):
of the other ones, because youdon't see the great yogi sitting
cross legged, eyes turnedupward, seeking the Samadhi.
Instead, you may see someonestanding in a kitchen with
rubber gloves washing dishes,and you think to yourself, oh,
(02:48):
that's not real yoga. Actually.
That might be more real yogathan sitting cross legged and
gazing upward in that when weare in meditation, or attempting
to go into meditation, or atleast sitting in the position of
meditation, we may have anillusion, because no one's
(03:10):
challenging us. So we sit thereand we think, Oh, I'm getting
very spiritual. I'm feeling verycentered. I'm feeling very
happy. And then you can remainso, because no one's there to
challenge. However, if you'redoing service seva or Karma
Yoga, as we call it, that's notthe case. There may be someone
(03:32):
telling you you're not washingthe dishes the right way, or
you're being too rough with thedishes, or whatever it is, your
apron is tied wrong. So there'salways somebody to challenge
you. That's when you reallyunderstand what the practices
have done and how they have keptthe mind in a position that you
(03:52):
don't react instead of you mayact but not react to the person
that is criticizing or tellingyou how you need to do
something. So I it, it's alwaysa real acid test, in a way, to
see how far are we how how muchdid we progress? Are we able to
(04:15):
take on people's criticisms, ordo things that are sometimes
thought of as beneath us toreally do this in that
particular way. And it alwaysbrings me back to a quote from
Mother Teresa when she said, TheThe miracle is not that we do
(04:37):
this work, because she alwaysdid the the hardest, the poorest
of the poor, etc. The miracle isnot that we do this work. The
miracle is that we love to dothis work. And I think this is
where bhakti yoga melds withKarma Yoga, because if you love
what you're doing, or you lovethe peace. People, or the person
(04:59):
that you're serving, or theanimal you're serving, or the
tree you're serving. Everythingchanges. It's no longer just
service. It's now serviceinfused with love.
Kamala Rose (05:16):
And here in verse 50, this the final statement,
yoga karma, kausalam, yoga isskill in action really speaks to
that that applied equanimity,right? I think you're so right
to bring up the point thateverything is perfect when it is
(05:40):
when your eyes are closed andyou're sitting quietly in
meditation by yourself.
Everything is fine. Where theworld has no has no negative
stimulus, right? We are notinteracting with others. It's a
time of quiet reflection, andreally the time that we are
developing the skill of engagingthrough the buddhi, through the
(06:03):
higher mind, through the wisdomfaculty, through the higher
intellect, right where we are.
We're developing the skill ofseeing the world through the
lens, rather than of I seeingthe world through the lens of a
we right, while we need theinternal work to do that. Here
(06:25):
the Gita asks us to apply it ineveryday life and in the way we
live, and that doing this isskillful action, right? Seeing
the world in a higher way, in adifferent way, is skillful
action. So both of us aslifelong karma yogis, really, I
(06:47):
think we have a lot to say on onWhat is Karma Yoga. And I think
for me, the first part is tojust sort of enunciate that a
little a little more, thatthere's what happens inside your
personal mind, privately, andthen there's the work of taking
it into the world, whichinevitably confronts the reality
(07:08):
that there's other people there,right? There's often
inconvenient, you know, thingsthat you like, things that you
don't like, things that youwould like to do, things that
you would not like to do. And itreally, I think, as you said,
it's an acid test of, can youact in on behalf of a we or do
(07:31):
we allow our likes and dislikesof this individual person to get
in the way of who or how we'reable to serve. I think
understanding what Karma Yoga isas a means of subduing the ego,
(07:52):
or transforming the ego into asomeone who is serving humanity,
rather than someone who isexpecting to be served by
humanity, is, I think, a prettygood definition of what Karma
Yoga aims to do, that throughour action in the world, we are
(08:16):
able to transcend ourselves ortranscend the personal right,
taking action that doesn't justbenefit me alone, right, serving
self interest, action thatbenefits everyone, and in a very
practical, applied way, benefitsthe people who are right there
(08:37):
are close to you, the People theanimal, the plants, the trees,
the the earth that is that wecoexist with, that we're able to
think of our action in terms ofthe the life beyond ourselves
that surrounds US,
Nischala Joy Devi (08:59):
karma. Yoga is really asking us to serve
without receiving any benefit,and in actuality, it seems to be
the only way to serve. If youtry to make someone molded to
how you believe in the world,then that's not really karma
(09:19):
yoga. That's just influencing ina certain way. So we really look
at this that there's really noreward, but isn't there? I think
that's the little caveat for me,because we don't really get a
reward, but yet, the feeling ofsatisfaction, the feeling of our
(09:42):
heart being open, the feelingthat somehow, by our tiny
action, the world is somehowmade better. And so don't expect
the reward. But I think itusually comes. In that
particular way. It's not thatit's a monetary reward or
(10:04):
anything physical, but somethinghappens, and I really believe
that that then plays into yourmeditation, as your heart
expands, as you know thatsomehow you have contributed
even a little bit to raising theconsciousness of the world. When
you sit, you become part ofthat, and you become an integral
(10:28):
part of that. And everything isa little bit easier. It's it's
like the old expression, whenthe tide rises, the the row
boats rise at the same rate asthe yachts, and that's the same
kind of thing. We We don'texpect it, but yet we we find
that somehow our mind is alittle more peaceful after we've
(10:51):
fed someone who's hungry, afterwe've closed someone who doesn't
have after we help build a housefor someone or do some small act
we sit, and it's almost a senseof satisfaction, but that I
would put more in an ego place.
This is more of a a hum ratherthan a cheer. You just sit
(11:15):
there, and suddenly everythingin you, your whole nervous
system is humming becausesomething has changed and you're
taking part in it. So I thinkthat that's something to really
understand. A real karma yogidoesn't wait for a thank you.
They just leave. There was a TVshow many, many years ago, and
(11:37):
they've brought it backsomewhat, called The Lone
Ranger, and the Lone Ranger cameand did good things for people,
but never waited for a thankyou. He was the first Karma Yoga
in that way. I really meant andand He'd ride away on his horse,
and people would say, who wasthat masked man? We don't know,
but he did this good and hedidn't wait for a thank you. So
(12:01):
we're being seen in some placesthat this is the way to live our
lives. Stop thinking of onlyyourself, and start thinking of
others and what they need, andthat will also make you happy
Kamala Rose (12:22):
and part of that is to not expect the reward of our
actions, which gets to thisdeeper message that we've been
covering here in chapter two, isthat we have a right to our
actions, but not to the resultsof our actions. Right? We can
act. We can, you know, we can,we can be, we can give, we can
(12:44):
teach, right? Both of us are,are yoga teachers, and we've got
many yoga teachers listening. Wehave yoga practitioners
listening here, right? So, youknow, if we just use that as an
example, do do I teach so that Ihave reward from my students,
that they say thank you or thatI'm, you know, being paid,
(13:05):
right? We're really looking forwhat inspires us beyond the
transactional nature of life,which is one way that we can
define karma, is thetransactional relationship with
the world that I do, I act, Iperform action, and I receive
(13:26):
something back for that. Right?
There's a transaction for mytime, my energy and my output.
Right? In Karma Yoga, it's kindof throwing that on its end and
saying you have a right to youraction, but not to the results
of your action. And I thinkthere's a lot to unpack in that
(13:46):
when we're when we're when we'relooking for this idea of skill
in action, right? Because wedon't want to approach it that
we're giving everything away andnot thinking about any
consequences, right? That's notwhat it means, but it does mean
that we have to learn to to actfrom a deeper core. And I think
(14:10):
this is what you were justgetting into, is we're coming
from a deeper place, arelationship with our action
that is beyond transactional. Iwould do it anyway. I would do
it because it's what I was bornto do and what I must do, and is
a thank you. Nice. Isremuneration appreciated? Yes,
(14:32):
but we're not doing it solelyfor that motive. Yeah, right. So
Karma Yoga is far beyond justvolunteering or just pitching in
for an afternoon in an activity,that, although it could be that
for many people, right, youmight, you know, spending an
(14:52):
afternoon in an ashram or at afood kitchen, or maybe you
volunteered in the recent firesand. Los Angeles, right? There's
many ways we can volunteer for ashort period of time, but Karma
Yoga is really getting to a wayof being that's beyond that, a
way of thinking of being that'sapproaching action, not as just
(15:14):
a temporary transaction, but away of being in the world where
we are of service to others. Weare helpful in helping others,
and in doing that, we're gettingbeyond ourselves and beyond the
personal, self satisfyingmotives that motivate ordinary
(15:37):
individuals. Yeah, so the powerto transform through Karma Yoga
is extraordinary. We both knowthis, but right there's also,
there's also some things tounpack, I think, so we can make
this hopefully clear for ourstudents and for our listeners.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:04):
Also, I think we really need to look at what
karma is in our society. It's weoversimplify everything, and
karma has become a buzz word, acatch word, and I don't think
most people really understandit, because we don't think like
(16:25):
that, but what we look at karmais really a neutral energy. It's
a little bit like electricity.
When it comes into your home,it's, it's, it's electricity.
It's neither good nor bad, andneither is karma. Karmas is not
neutral energy. That's neithergood or bad. And people like to
say, Oh, that's my good karma,that's my bad karma. But karma
(16:47):
actually isn't it's just, youcan think of it like
electricity, like a lesson, likesomething that's just coming in,
in its neutral state. Thequestion is, how do we use it?
That's the question. So gettingback to electricity, if you plug
a lamp and it's dark, you say,oh, electricity is wonderful. It
(17:08):
gave me light. If you plug yourfinger and you get a shock, you
say, oh, there's electricity isbad. I just got a shock from it,
and it's the same thing here wehave something happened to us,
and we don't know what theramifications really are. We
just see the immediate we say,Oh, I hurt my leg, therefore I
(17:31):
can't run in the marathon. Well,suppose something happened, or
suppose something saved you onthe way to that. We don't really
know that. So when we talk aboutkarma, we have to think of it as
this ever spinning wheel, thisWheel of Karma that we keep
going through, and we keepcreating more and more karma by
(17:53):
our actions. When we talk aboutkarma yoga, it's a way to get
out of our own actions. It'salmost a way to get out of our
own way and allow ourselves todo things for the sake of others
or for the sake of the actitself, without looking for a
(18:14):
reward. What do I get out ofthis. If I feed this person,
what do I get out of it? Well,you get out of it that you fed a
person, that's what you got outof it. So this karma, this idea
that we have, all this karmathat we have to get rid of, is
(18:35):
really not the way to thinkabout it. What we want to do is
we want to neutralize everythingto the point where anything we
do helps our spiritual growthand development, nothing hinders
us. Everything is our wholelife, and this is real to me.
(18:55):
Really what yoga is. It's notsitting on a mat. It's not
sitting on a cushion. It's doesyour whole life go into that one
point that everything is takingyou to that? Because if you
start doing action that takesyou away from that, then your
trajectory is slowed to a pointit may even slow that you have
(19:18):
to go back even and do someother things to bring it So
Karma Yoga seems to be somethingthat's honored in every
tradition. We all know that themore we serve, the more pure we
become in mind and heart, andthen when we go to sit for
something as subtle asmeditation. It's available to us
(19:41):
because we have purified it inour everyday life. So this, this
whole idea of, oh, I have somuch bad karma. If you think you
have bad karma, go out and servesomeone, feed someone. Clothe
someone, talk to someone who'slonely. It doesn't even have to
(20:03):
be complicated or expensive,just talk to somebody. Smile at
somebody with all your heart andthat that gets us out of this
wheel that's constantlyspinning, constantly going of
karma, and then we're able tomove toward the source of really
(20:25):
who we are, into the light. Andthen the added benefit to this,
because I just said there's nobenefit, but there's one another
benefit. You start to see thatsame light in everyone you
serve, then that's real KarmaYoga. You and that person have
become almost one. You're notserving them anymore. You're
(20:47):
serving the greater, the whole,the complete.
Kamala Rose (20:57):
I'd like to just add a little bit to that view of
karma. Because really, we can'tunderstand karma yoga without
understanding what is karma?
What is it that we aretranscending? How is it that in
the midst of ordinary life, whenserving another, we can become
one? You know, does this? Howdoes this work? I think one of
my ideas of karma that's beenwith me for many years is that
(21:21):
we're talking about the therealm of time and space that we
move in, right? We can define itas as time, right? It takes a
day a month a year for Xexperience to happen, and it
happens in a space at locationsall over the earth, right? When
(21:43):
we're in karma, we're seeingjust ourselves in this, right,
my day, my week, my month, myplace that I belong to my
activities, right? But I thinkpart of understanding karma, for
me, has been knowing that it'snot just me in my actions, in
(22:05):
this space, this is made up byall of our actions. Right? Karma
is a place of collective action,where all of us are intertwined,
bound together by our actions,right? I can act in in this way.
I can, you know, rake the leavesin the yard, and it's seemingly
(22:26):
an individual activity, but intruth, that action affects my
neighbors, right, and how therushing waters outside will flow
through the yard whether or notI move the leaves out of the
way, right? I thinkunderstanding that our actions,
our individual karma, isactually related very closely,
(22:50):
especially to the people that welive with, to the people who are
our neighbors, to the people whowe interact with at work, to the
people who we form communitieswith, and to our larger world.
So often, when, when thinkingabout, what is the best action
(23:11):
right in Karma Yoga, what is theskill in action here, I always
ask myself, how, how does thisbenefit all of us, rather than
just me? What is the best thingto do for everyone, right? And
maybe that is sweet, you know,just raking the leaves so that
(23:32):
the rushing waters don't floodmy neighborhood, for example.
Or, you know what kinds ofactions will benefit all of us?
You use the example of feedingothers, of taking care of those
around us. And I firmly believethat this makes our community
(23:52):
stronger, more resilient, and wehelp to develop a spirit of
compassion in the places that welive, which is a very profound
way of of acting on the world,acting our ethics into the
(24:13):
world, right? So, seeing howkarma is where we're
interconnected with others,right? We can see that direct
relationship between service,serving others, helping others
as a means of getting beyondmyself, of seeing beyond just my
own actions and how it's goingto make my life better, rather
(24:36):
looking at what are the actionsthat will make this better for
all of us?
Nischala Joy Devi (24:46):
It's it's interesting to me that we don't
realize this on our daily lives,that we actually think that
we're individuals, and that'svery. Curious, because even if
you look at a grove of treesthat seem to be independent, if
you go to a little bit below thesurface, you see they're all
(25:08):
interconnected. And that's theway we are with our spirits.
We're all connected. And theother thing, I don't think that
most of us realize that we walkaround as gardeners every day,
and we're putting little seedseverywhere of of our actions and
how we've acted, and we burythose little seeds, and those
(25:32):
seeds then become our karma.
They germinate as karma, and itdepends on how many seeds in a
particular area you may have. Sofor instance, if someone does
something unhealthy for theirbody, and they're doing this for
year after year after year afteryear, and they've been told,
(25:52):
don't do this, because this canlead to this disease, etc, etc.
Well, every time that theyindulge in this habit, they're
planting another seed. And everytime that seed is planted, and
the seed is saying, this isharming the body. This is not
good for the body. This is doingdestruction, etc, etc, after a
(26:15):
certain amount of those seedsare accumulated, a full blown
disease could come. Maybe yes,maybe no. And then the person
says, Why did I get thisdisease? I shouldn't have gotten
this disease. And someone says,you but look, look what you did
to your body all these years. Sowe have to also see the cause
(26:39):
and effect of karma, what itdoes. Once we understand the
cause and effect, then weunderstand why Karma Yoga works.
Because if we do somethingwithout that attachment, without
that expectation, then it's aneutral energy, and it comes in
(26:59):
and the neutral energy we canuse however we want, so we use
it for our spiritual benefit. SoI just wanted to go over very
simply and quickly the differentkinds of karma, because I think
that might be a little link forpeople, first of all, to know
that there is a storehouse ofkarma that we carry around with
(27:22):
us, and often it's describedlike an archer. For some reason
this fits right in the examplewith the Bhagavad Gita, of
course, but we have this, thisstorehouse, the kamasala, where
we all the karmas are kept soand many without getting into
(27:43):
our incarnate reincarnationright now, but many believe we
take this with us from lifetimeto lifetime, the ones we don't
use. So we have this storehouseof of karma, and then it is
partitioned out in differentways. So the first is the Agami,
(28:03):
and that's the actions that havealready been determined. So this
is the one that they take thearrow out of the quiver and they
put it in the ready to shoot.
But this arrow has already beenshot. The Karma is already done,
and this is who your parentsare. As much as you would like
(28:25):
to change them or not, you can'twhere you were born, etc, etc.
And it used to be some otherthings, but now we've managed to
change some other aspects of thephysical but these are the
things that have already beendetermined, whether from past
lives or from early this life.
And that's called Agami. Andthen there's a parabta that the
(28:46):
arrow has taken. It's in thebow. It's ready to be shot. So
if you want to make any changes,this is the time, if you want to
make friends with your cousinSteven. This is the moment to do
it, because once that arrow isshot, you may not ever be able
(29:06):
to heal that relationship. Sothis is the one you do right
away. And then finally, there'sthe San Gita. And the San gitas
are really, this is the one thatreally we can work with it. It's
not come to fruition yet, but weknow somewhere it's in there. We
know that we have a fear ofsomething, or an anger towards
(29:30):
something, and this is wherepick your karma yoga, because,
say you have had a childhoodwhere you didn't have much food,
and you maybe here's a littleresentment and anger that some
people did use that to feedpeople. Go and feed people. Show
(29:51):
them this. I didn't have this,but this is what I want to give
to you. If it was clothing, dothe same. Find something that
helps you heal any wounds thatyou made he have, and then move
ahead with it. Move ahead withyour karma. Once you have fed
(30:11):
someone after you know whathunger is, there is a
satisfaction that can't benamed, and that will also help
your karma.
Kamala Rose (30:30):
So really understanding ourselves, really
taking I think this is one ofthe things we learn in
meditation, and where the thebeauty of buddhi, of Buddha yoga
is Krishna is outlining inchapter two, helps us to have a
clear view of ourselves andunderstand what we're working
with, with those different typesof karma, right? As you said,
(30:53):
the Agami, there's some thingsthat are predetermined in our
lives and the place that you'reborn, the time that we're born,
right, the body that you're borninto, and the social conditions
that come along with that,right? We're in a time of
investigating all of this in ourculture, and this is this right.
(31:16):
So I think the, I think the thepart in the Gita that is really
highlighting the internal worksays, Be realistic, be honest
with yourself about who you are,the conditions that you live in,
the conditions you were borninto, and what could you do?
What can you do in that secondoctave of karma, the parabda,
(31:42):
karma, seeing what we can do,what we can change right now,
the areas where we're notrestricted, but we can. We can
overcome incredible things. Wecan really change our lives, and
then finally, into the San Gitato really transform by our
service. But all of this, weneed a clear and insightful mind
(32:08):
to be honest with ourselves andto have an understanding about
that continuity of action,right? It didn't just start
right now. Today, we're comingfrom previous cause and effect
that creates this presentmoment. And I think there's
something so empowering aboutthat understanding of karma that
(32:31):
by my actions today, this couldbe very much change. And I think
this is what skill in action isteaching us that we have. You
know, we can take a sense ofempowerment from this
information and thisunderstanding of karma and to
(32:51):
really dig deep and understandwho am I and how can I genuinely
help people I loved what yousaid about the Sangeeta karma,
of those potential actions,where the things that we've
experienced in our lives, wehave something very genuine and
(33:16):
authentic to offer the world tomake it A better place that's
born out of personal experience,something that I know very
deeply and I can help to makebetter for others. I think this
is really a very essentialdefinition of karma. Yoga is a
deep seated desire to makethings better, and not that it's
(33:40):
easy, right? Not that it's easy.
You still have to go beyondyourself and face your, uh, face
your fears or your shortcomingsto transform that,
Nischala Joy Devi (33:53):
yeah, yeah.
And in the beginning, it may beforced, right? So we say, okay,
holidays are coming up. There'speople that are hungry. I'm
going to go down and feed them.
Oh, but it's a little rainy.
It's a little cold today. MaybeI'll do it next week, maybe
(34:14):
another time. But if youactually understand that people
are waiting for food. You getyourself out of bed, and then
the next time, it's a littleeasier, and by the third or
fourth time, you're seeing thefaces of the people and the
gratitude for giving them thesmall amount of food, and
(34:39):
there's no hesitation. That'swhen you really start seeing it,
when you're understanding itfrom their point of view, rather
than your point of view. Andthen eventually both of them go
and you're just doing theaction, but you. Try putting the
heart in it. The mind will willdo fine. But when the heart is
(35:05):
there, not are you only youhanding them some mashed
potatoes, but you're giving themlove with that, and probably
that's the most important partfor them. So mashed potatoes
plus love equals good karma.
Kamala Rose (35:28):
That's a good prescription, because there
really are so many opportunitiesto to make the world a better
place. I love the example thatyou gave earlier that we're all
gardeners, yeah, and one of mybiggest projects has been to to
(35:50):
learn permaculture gardening,and planted lots and lots of
trees and something when you'replanting a tree that is So you
know has just moved my heart somuch is that that tree that
you're planting, it's, it'sfulfilling in the moment, right?
You feel good about yourself.
You're helping the Earth. You'reserving the earth. But when you
(36:12):
really stop to think that thattree will outlive you, Yes, yep,
right? That tree is providinghappiness, probably sore
shoulders from digging, right?
You know, has provided a dirty,sweaty day for you that made you
(36:34):
happy, because the smell of soilalways makes us happy, right?
We've, we provided for theearth, we've offset global
warming, right? All in oneaction, amazing, right? But the
idea that that tree will outliveyou, yes, right? It's going to
go beyond your own personaltime, and even beyond your own
(36:58):
personal space. You will nolonger be there to enjoy that
tree, and it seems that shootingthat arrow into the future with
people who you'll never know.
You don't know if those aregoing to be good people or
corrupt people. You don't knowwho's going to enjoy the shade
of the tree. But there'ssomething in providing, you
(37:19):
know, or being a part of thisinteraction with the earth that
I think, for me, is a veryessential definition. I really
love the idea of gardening as away we can all do Karma Yoga,
right? We can serve the earth,that's it provides for us in in
(37:42):
every single bit of food thatyou eat, in every bit of water
that you drink, right, thatwe're we're able to make the
world a better place in thistiny little area. But that tiny
little area affects theatmosphere and it affects every
(38:02):
everything alive in the worldtoday. So I think it's a great
analogy for the way of thinkingthat is Karma Yoga right to be
able to use our intelligence todetermine actions that go beyond
a personal benefit. In doingthis, I'm transcending myself,
(38:27):
my own personal wants and needs,and I'm contributing something
that makes the world a betterplace, but in ways I'm not going
to see immediately, right? Imight derive some short term
benefit. I might not right, butthat's the point. Yeah, right.
(38:48):
We we have to come to therealization that you cannot
determine the results. Right?
Although we take action in theworld, you are not able to
change the world. You are notable to fix this or change this.
(39:08):
All you can do is your part,right? I think there's something
very self transcending aboutthis, obviously, right, that to
realize that I all I can do ismy part, and for my part, I hope
to make it as beneficial to asmany as possible. This is one of
(39:33):
the definitions that I've readfrom the Dalai Lama on a
positive intention, right, wherewe can think of our action in
terms of what causes the leastamount of harm to others and
benefits the most. Yeah, that'syoga sutras. Yes, yes. A very
(39:55):
simple definition, very
Nischala Joy Devi (39:57):
simple Yes.
Benefit to Sam. Harm and harm tono one. Yeah,
Kamala Rose (40:03):
in the complicated world we live in today, it's
hard, it's hard to track this.
It's hard to know that we'reconnected to so many things that
are that are bringing harm toothers, right? So I think the
choices we make about the thingswe buy, the things we interact
with in the world, right? Wehave a certain amount of choice,
(40:26):
but at a certain point, it's we,you don't know, right? We don't
really know. All we can do is doour best and have the intention
that our actions are harming theleast possible and benefiting
the most.
Nischala Joy Devi (40:45):
You know, I just want to go a little bit
further on something you said,because I think it's really an
important point that we may notknow what we do because we're
basing it on a limitedknowledge. As we begin to do
(41:06):
more karma yoga and expand moreour knowledge also becomes more
discriminating, and then we canmake a decision, no, I think
this action will help morepeople than this one will, and
therefore I now have the skillsto do it, and I'm going to do it
so we can, we can start to seewhat this does. And also,
(41:30):
something you said reminded me,and I the image of the game was
like one person that we're soconnected to the next person
that when we move four steps tothe right, we're pulling a whole
chain with us, and we're alsobeing pulled. We're not the set.
We don't know where the chainbegins and ends. We just know
(41:53):
we're all together in this so ifsomeone plants a tree, and then
500 years later, or 100 yearslater, I'm born, and I sit under
that tree. Do I think, well,somebody took the time to plant
this tree. Maybe their shouldersdid hurt afterwards. Maybe they
(42:17):
were exhausted, but now here amI enjoying it? Can I then thank
that person? Can we go back andthank that person? Or the real
question is, is it going back?
Well, we'll, we'll talk aboutthat in another session. But the
the whole idea comes then withgratitude from the person who
(42:38):
receives. So we're both, we'reon both sides of this karma yoga
scale. We give, but also peopleare giving to us at the same
time. How do we accept what'sgiven without accruing more
karma? Right? How do we? Andthen there's some yogic
(43:00):
principles that even say weshouldn't be accepting gifts
from anyone, because there'ssomething attached to it. But
then it breaks the chain,because if we don't accept, then
how can we give? Right? So therehas to be a graciousness in
giving and receiving. And whenthat happens, there's the
(43:22):
complete there's the completeKarma Yoga, I'm giving, I'm
receiving, I'm giving, I'mreceiving, and I'm grateful for
both. So it's a that's why Ievery time someone says
something about karma, or I seeit in the newspaper or
(43:42):
something, I laugh because it'sso complicated. There's nothing
simple about karma, but eachthing that we do has an effect
somewhere, another on us and onthe other people, also on who
else you serve. So you sayyou're so say, say you're
teaching a yoga class. It's aservice. If you think of it as a
(44:04):
service, you have a yoga class,and then it's a really good
class. So the next class thatcame in, you already have that
wonderful energy from theprevious class that you are now
passing through. So when you cansay, in a way, the students in
that first class generatedenough peaceful, loving energy,
(44:27):
and you as the conduit, take itand move it to the next one. And
I think that's what we become.
After a while, we become,instead of judging the Karma
Yoga, we just take the energyfrom it and we move it forward
(44:48):
to the next group, to ourmeditation, to healing, to
whatever else it is. Because Ithink it's such a powerful
energy, powerful energy, thatwe. Of this karma yoga
Kamala Rose (45:03):
becoming a generative force in that way,
yeah, right, responding topresent moment events in the
interconnected whole of time andspace called karma, cause and
effect, right? And watchingthose those fruits, right, the
the ripening of those karmas,right, affect other people,
(45:27):
right? I think for the karmayogi, I you know just what
you're saying, that we are, weare neutral in that way. We are
simply present and using our ourdiscernment, our higher capacity
developed through meditation todiscern what are the best
actions. I think that teachingyoga is a very powerful karma.
(45:51):
Yoga, I mean, can be a powerfulway of serving the world,
preserving a trend, a tradition,teaching practices that help to
make people's lives better,right? We also know that it can
be used to, you know, develop avery materialistic thing and
(46:12):
play a part in the capitalistmachine. But aside from that,
right, as yoga teachers, I knowwe really take a great deal of
meaning, great heartfelt meaningfrom sharing and teaching the
skills of yoga and bringing thepeace of a calm and centered
mind into our classrooms andenabling our students to
(46:36):
hopefully produce that on theirown without having to be
dependent on us all the time. Ithink it's a powerful intention,
much like planting a tree thatwe are, we're providing that
sort of a calm and centeredservice that for an hour and a
half, an hour hour and a half,everyone is breathing
(46:58):
peacefully, enjoying the calm ofof a yoga class, and that is
rewarding as an individual,although not something we can
necessarily certainly grasp foror try to claim, try to hang on
to and say, what a good yogateacher I am, what A good job I
(47:21):
did in the world today night totake that personal claim of the
results. So karma, yoga, Ithink, is a is a path of
learning. First and foremost, ishow I know it is a path of
learning, and just becauseyou're volunteering to do
(47:45):
something doesn't mean you'reletting go of your personal
needs and wants, right? It's notjust because you're volunteering
or just because you'revolunteering in an ashram, in a
spiritual place, right? Youcould be in a very different
situation. You could be beingpaid for your action, and it is
(48:07):
still pure karma yoga whenyou're letting go of the results
of your actions. And I thinkthis is something we should
emphasize for our listeners, isit doesn't really have anything
to do with being paid. No. Infact, as yoga teachers, I know
we're fighting to to make surethat we're compensated for the
unique work that we do. It's abig issue in our profession
(48:31):
today, right being recognizedfor the unique skills that we
have. It's they're rare. They'reunique skills, and many of us
have taken many, many years tolearn these skills and are
aspiring to give them to theworld in a way that is, that is
(48:51):
without restriction, right,without myself being in the way
serving our fellow Humans. Soit's a path, a path of learning,
a path of learning aboutyourself, a path of learning
about what it takes to serve.
And as we started today,sometimes the world doesn't, you
(49:12):
know, sometimes you get some youget some blowback, right? It's
not always a walk through thethrough a beautiful spring
garden, right? We're alwaysgoing to get the reaction of
others and learning to deal withthat and maintain equanimity.
This is Karma Yoga. You
Nischala Joy Devi (49:36):
just said some very interesting things,
and I had a smile when you said,one of the things that we're
doing is preserving thetradition, and I really believe
we are but I also believe we'retransforming it, and that's an
(49:58):
interesting karma in itself.
Just thinking about two Westernwomen sitting here talking about
the Bhagavad Gita and what itmeans to us in this time, what
karmas did we have to bringourselves to that? I kind of had
to chuckle about that a littlebit, you know, and when you were
(50:19):
talking about as a yoga teacher,I think it's a very confusing
thing in our time right nowbeing a yoga teacher, because
first of all, yoga is means somany different things to so many
people. And when I was doingbasic training to teach basic to
a yoga teacher. One of thethings I would always say to
(50:46):
them is, at the end of class, ifpeople just walk out and don't
say anything to you, that'sactually the best, right?
They're in themselves. They'renot thinking, Oh, this was a
great class, you know? They'rejust thinking, Wow, I feel
really good right now. I want tojust be quiet and walk out and
(51:08):
teachers get upset. Why didn'tthey say anything? Don't they
like it? Don't they? We have tounderstand that if we're if our
job is to help people feelpeaceful, and they finally do,
don't take them out of it, letthem be there in it. So, and
this whole idea of bringing themoney into it is very tricky.
(51:30):
It's very tricky because youhave a service, a spiritual
service, and then you bringmoney. So we have to be so
vigilant that we're taking whatwe need, but not for the greed.
That's what tips it. If you'retaking what you need to, to eat,
(51:53):
to to have your life the way youneed it is one thing, but
remember what we're doing, weare sparking this light of truth
within each person. So if you'recompensated, it's great, but you
also have to make time. Ifyou're not compensated, what can
(52:15):
you do? How can you live?
Because what I found is youstart compromising your values
for money. Oh, well, the yogastudio down the street teaches
this kind of yoga. It's notreally my kind of yoga, but look
at all the students they bringin. So we get into a whole other
(52:38):
aspect of karma. You uh, staysimple, is what I would say.
Stay simple with what you do andhow you use it, and make sure
that if someone comes to you whocan't afford it, that you take
them you let them come. And Iknow most teachers would do
(53:02):
this, but this is the how weperpetuate karma yoga. Even
though we're getting money fromit, our heart is still open in
it. So it's a very complex it'svery complicated. Nothing simple
about it. And I would say, ifyou have any doubt after you do
(53:23):
any action, sit quietly for acouple of moments and see where
it feels good and where itdoesn't feel good, and that will
determine if the act was what wecall as a perfect act, bringing
benefits to some and harm to noone.
Kamala Rose (53:45):
That's a great place to wrap up. What a
wonderful discussion. Nisha,thank you so much and great.
Thank you to our listeners. Ihope that you've already hit
subscribed and hopefully left usa review on our podcast, and if
there's anything else you'd liketo hear us discuss, please leave
it in the comments. Thank you somuch for joining us today.
(54:09):
Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (54:13):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nistula Joy, Davie andKamala rose. We would like to
express our gratitude for theongoing support for a woman's
Gita podcast and book from yogagives back a non profit
organization dedicated to theunderserved women and children
of India. Please join us againfor our next episode coming
(54:36):
soon. Namaste. You.
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gitapodcast, a modern discussion of
the Bhagavad Gita by and forWestern women. A women's Gita
features discussions on theBhagavad Gita, the timeless
classic of Eastern wisdom,reinterpreted from the
perspective of two femaleteachers, your hosts are nistula
Joy, Davey and Kamala Rose, whohave dedicated their lives to
(00:27):
the yoga tradition at a timewhen women's voices are finally
emerging, a feminine perspectiveof the wartime treatise could
not be more timely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Namaste, thanks for joining us today for a woman's
Gita Podcast. I'm Kamala rose
Nischala Joy Devi (00:48):
and I'm Nischala Joy Devi. Today we
Kamala Rose (00:51):
are continuing our dialog on Chapter Two, since
it's so packed, really anoverview of the whole Bhagavad
Gita. Today we're talking aboutkarma yoga, one of the yogas of
the Bhagavad Gita that dealswith our action in the world the
(01:12):
way we think about our action inthe world. And as we're starting
here on verse 50, really theinterior, the interior point of
equanimity in our minds thatenables us to approach our lives
(01:32):
in a way where we have anequanimity or an equality
towards All. Nishala, would youlike to start with verse 50?
Nischala Joy Devi (01:43):
Sure 250 the practice of yoga frees one from
karma. Therefore, devoteyourself to yoga. Yoga is skill
in action. I think this isprobably one of the famous
(02:04):
definitions of yoga from theBhagavad Gita. And it's
interesting that it's talkingabout action, karma, meaning
action. And sometimes I thinkpeople who practice these
different yogas think that karmayoga isn't as important as some
(02:28):
of the other ones, because youdon't see the great yogi sitting
cross legged, eyes turnedupward, seeking the Samadhi.
Instead, you may see someonestanding in a kitchen with
rubber gloves washing dishes,and you think to yourself, oh,
(02:48):
that's not real yoga. Actually.
That might be more real yogathan sitting cross legged and
gazing upward in that when weare in meditation, or attempting
to go into meditation, or atleast sitting in the position of
meditation, we may have anillusion, because no one's
(03:10):
challenging us. So we sit thereand we think, Oh, I'm getting
very spiritual. I'm feeling verycentered. I'm feeling very
happy. And then you can remainso, because no one's there to
challenge. However, if you'redoing service seva or Karma
Yoga, as we call it, that's notthe case. There may be someone
(03:32):
telling you you're not washingthe dishes the right way, or
you're being too rough with thedishes, or whatever it is, your
apron is tied wrong. So there'salways somebody to challenge
you. That's when you reallyunderstand what the practices
have done and how they have keptthe mind in a position that you
(03:52):
don't react instead of you mayact but not react to the person
that is criticizing or tellingyou how you need to do
something. So I it, it's alwaysa real acid test, in a way, to
see how far are we how how muchdid we progress? Are we able to
(04:15):
take on people's criticisms, ordo things that are sometimes
thought of as beneath us toreally do this in that
particular way. And it alwaysbrings me back to a quote from
Mother Teresa when she said, TheThe miracle is not that we do
(04:37):
this work, because she alwaysdid the the hardest, the poorest
of the poor, etc. The miracle isnot that we do this work. The
miracle is that we love to dothis work. And I think this is
where bhakti yoga melds withKarma Yoga, because if you love
what you're doing, or you lovethe peace. People, or the person
(04:59):
that you're serving, or theanimal you're serving, or the
tree you're serving. Everythingchanges. It's no longer just
service. It's now serviceinfused with love.
Kamala Rose (05:16):
And here in verse 50, this the final statement,
yoga karma, kausalam, yoga isskill in action really speaks to
that that applied equanimity,right? I think you're so right
to bring up the point thateverything is perfect when it is
(05:40):
when your eyes are closed andyou're sitting quietly in
meditation by yourself.
Everything is fine. Where theworld has no has no negative
stimulus, right? We are notinteracting with others. It's a
time of quiet reflection, andreally the time that we are
developing the skill of engagingthrough the buddhi, through the
(06:03):
higher mind, through the wisdomfaculty, through the higher
intellect, right where we are.
We're developing the skill ofseeing the world through the
lens, rather than of I seeingthe world through the lens of a
we right, while we need theinternal work to do that. Here
(06:25):
the Gita asks us to apply it ineveryday life and in the way we
live, and that doing this isskillful action, right? Seeing
the world in a higher way, in adifferent way, is skillful
action. So both of us aslifelong karma yogis, really, I
(06:47):
think we have a lot to say on onWhat is Karma Yoga. And I think
for me, the first part is tojust sort of enunciate that a
little a little more, thatthere's what happens inside your
personal mind, privately, andthen there's the work of taking
it into the world, whichinevitably confronts the reality
(07:08):
that there's other people there,right? There's often
inconvenient, you know, thingsthat you like, things that you
don't like, things that youwould like to do, things that
you would not like to do. And itreally, I think, as you said,
it's an acid test of, can youact in on behalf of a we or do
(07:31):
we allow our likes and dislikesof this individual person to get
in the way of who or how we'reable to serve. I think
understanding what Karma Yoga isas a means of subduing the ego,
(07:52):
or transforming the ego into asomeone who is serving humanity,
rather than someone who isexpecting to be served by
humanity, is, I think, a prettygood definition of what Karma
Yoga aims to do, that throughour action in the world, we are
(08:16):
able to transcend ourselves ortranscend the personal right,
taking action that doesn't justbenefit me alone, right, serving
self interest, action thatbenefits everyone, and in a very
practical, applied way, benefitsthe people who are right there
(08:37):
are close to you, the People theanimal, the plants, the trees,
the the earth that is that wecoexist with, that we're able to
think of our action in terms ofthe the life beyond ourselves
that surrounds US,
Nischala Joy Devi (08:59):
karma. Yoga is really asking us to serve
without receiving any benefit,and in actuality, it seems to be
the only way to serve. If youtry to make someone molded to
how you believe in the world,then that's not really karma
(09:19):
yoga. That's just influencing ina certain way. So we really look
at this that there's really noreward, but isn't there? I think
that's the little caveat for me,because we don't really get a
reward, but yet, the feeling ofsatisfaction, the feeling of our
(09:42):
heart being open, the feelingthat somehow, by our tiny
action, the world is somehowmade better. And so don't expect
the reward. But I think itusually comes. In that
particular way. It's not thatit's a monetary reward or
(10:04):
anything physical, but somethinghappens, and I really believe
that that then plays into yourmeditation, as your heart
expands, as you know thatsomehow you have contributed
even a little bit to raising theconsciousness of the world. When
you sit, you become part ofthat, and you become an integral
(10:28):
part of that. And everything isa little bit easier. It's it's
like the old expression, whenthe tide rises, the the row
boats rise at the same rate asthe yachts, and that's the same
kind of thing. We We don'texpect it, but yet we we find
that somehow our mind is alittle more peaceful after we've
(10:51):
fed someone who's hungry, afterwe've closed someone who doesn't
have after we help build a housefor someone or do some small act
we sit, and it's almost a senseof satisfaction, but that I
would put more in an ego place.
This is more of a a hum ratherthan a cheer. You just sit
(11:15):
there, and suddenly everythingin you, your whole nervous
system is humming becausesomething has changed and you're
taking part in it. So I thinkthat that's something to really
understand. A real karma yogidoesn't wait for a thank you.
They just leave. There was a TVshow many, many years ago, and
(11:37):
they've brought it backsomewhat, called The Lone
Ranger, and the Lone Ranger cameand did good things for people,
but never waited for a thankyou. He was the first Karma Yoga
in that way. I really meant andand He'd ride away on his horse,
and people would say, who wasthat masked man? We don't know,
but he did this good and hedidn't wait for a thank you. So
(12:01):
we're being seen in some placesthat this is the way to live our
lives. Stop thinking of onlyyourself, and start thinking of
others and what they need, andthat will also make you happy
Kamala Rose (12:22):
and part of that is to not expect the reward of our
actions, which gets to thisdeeper message that we've been
covering here in chapter two, isthat we have a right to our
actions, but not to the resultsof our actions. Right? We can
act. We can, you know, we can,we can be, we can give, we can
(12:44):
teach, right? Both of us are,are yoga teachers, and we've got
many yoga teachers listening. Wehave yoga practitioners
listening here, right? So, youknow, if we just use that as an
example, do do I teach so that Ihave reward from my students,
that they say thank you or thatI'm, you know, being paid,
(13:05):
right? We're really looking forwhat inspires us beyond the
transactional nature of life,which is one way that we can
define karma, is thetransactional relationship with
the world that I do, I act, Iperform action, and I receive
(13:26):
something back for that. Right?
There's a transaction for mytime, my energy and my output.
Right? In Karma Yoga, it's kindof throwing that on its end and
saying you have a right to youraction, but not to the results
of your action. And I thinkthere's a lot to unpack in that
(13:46):
when we're when we're when we'relooking for this idea of skill
in action, right? Because wedon't want to approach it that
we're giving everything away andnot thinking about any
consequences, right? That's notwhat it means, but it does mean
that we have to learn to to actfrom a deeper core. And I think
(14:10):
this is what you were justgetting into, is we're coming
from a deeper place, arelationship with our action
that is beyond transactional. Iwould do it anyway. I would do
it because it's what I was bornto do and what I must do, and is
a thank you. Nice. Isremuneration appreciated? Yes,
(14:32):
but we're not doing it solelyfor that motive. Yeah, right. So
Karma Yoga is far beyond justvolunteering or just pitching in
for an afternoon in an activity,that, although it could be that
for many people, right, youmight, you know, spending an
(14:52):
afternoon in an ashram or at afood kitchen, or maybe you
volunteered in the recent firesand. Los Angeles, right? There's
many ways we can volunteer for ashort period of time, but Karma
Yoga is really getting to a wayof being that's beyond that, a
way of thinking of being that'sapproaching action, not as just
(15:14):
a temporary transaction, but away of being in the world where
we are of service to others. Weare helpful in helping others,
and in doing that, we're gettingbeyond ourselves and beyond the
personal, self satisfyingmotives that motivate ordinary
(15:37):
individuals. Yeah, so the powerto transform through Karma Yoga
is extraordinary. We both knowthis, but right there's also,
there's also some things tounpack, I think, so we can make
this hopefully clear for ourstudents and for our listeners.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:04):
Also, I think we really need to look at what
karma is in our society. It's weoversimplify everything, and
karma has become a buzz word, acatch word, and I don't think
most people really understandit, because we don't think like
(16:25):
that, but what we look at karmais really a neutral energy. It's
a little bit like electricity.
When it comes into your home,it's, it's, it's electricity.
It's neither good nor bad, andneither is karma. Karmas is not
neutral energy. That's neithergood or bad. And people like to
say, Oh, that's my good karma,that's my bad karma. But karma
(16:47):
actually isn't it's just, youcan think of it like
electricity, like a lesson, likesomething that's just coming in,
in its neutral state. Thequestion is, how do we use it?
That's the question. So gettingback to electricity, if you plug
a lamp and it's dark, you say,oh, electricity is wonderful. It
(17:08):
gave me light. If you plug yourfinger and you get a shock, you
say, oh, there's electricity isbad. I just got a shock from it,
and it's the same thing here wehave something happened to us,
and we don't know what theramifications really are. We
just see the immediate we say,Oh, I hurt my leg, therefore I
(17:31):
can't run in the marathon. Well,suppose something happened, or
suppose something saved you onthe way to that. We don't really
know that. So when we talk aboutkarma, we have to think of it as
this ever spinning wheel, thisWheel of Karma that we keep
going through, and we keepcreating more and more karma by
(17:53):
our actions. When we talk aboutkarma yoga, it's a way to get
out of our own actions. It'salmost a way to get out of our
own way and allow ourselves todo things for the sake of others
or for the sake of the actitself, without looking for a
(18:14):
reward. What do I get out ofthis. If I feed this person,
what do I get out of it? Well,you get out of it that you fed a
person, that's what you got outof it. So this karma, this idea
that we have, all this karmathat we have to get rid of, is
(18:35):
really not the way to thinkabout it. What we want to do is
we want to neutralize everythingto the point where anything we
do helps our spiritual growthand development, nothing hinders
us. Everything is our wholelife, and this is real to me.
(18:55):
Really what yoga is. It's notsitting on a mat. It's not
sitting on a cushion. It's doesyour whole life go into that one
point that everything is takingyou to that? Because if you
start doing action that takesyou away from that, then your
trajectory is slowed to a pointit may even slow that you have
(19:18):
to go back even and do someother things to bring it So
Karma Yoga seems to be somethingthat's honored in every
tradition. We all know that themore we serve, the more pure we
become in mind and heart, andthen when we go to sit for
something as subtle asmeditation. It's available to us
(19:41):
because we have purified it inour everyday life. So this, this
whole idea of, oh, I have somuch bad karma. If you think you
have bad karma, go out and servesomeone, feed someone. Clothe
someone, talk to someone who'slonely. It doesn't even have to
(20:03):
be complicated or expensive,just talk to somebody. Smile at
somebody with all your heart andthat that gets us out of this
wheel that's constantlyspinning, constantly going of
karma, and then we're able tomove toward the source of really
(20:25):
who we are, into the light. Andthen the added benefit to this,
because I just said there's nobenefit, but there's one another
benefit. You start to see thatsame light in everyone you
serve, then that's real KarmaYoga. You and that person have
become almost one. You're notserving them anymore. You're
(20:47):
serving the greater, the whole,the complete.
Kamala Rose (20:57):
I'd like to just add a little bit to that view of
karma. Because really, we can'tunderstand karma yoga without
understanding what is karma?
What is it that we aretranscending? How is it that in
the midst of ordinary life, whenserving another, we can become
one? You know, does this? Howdoes this work? I think one of
my ideas of karma that's beenwith me for many years is that
(21:21):
we're talking about the therealm of time and space that we
move in, right? We can define itas as time, right? It takes a
day a month a year for Xexperience to happen, and it
happens in a space at locationsall over the earth, right? When
(21:43):
we're in karma, we're seeingjust ourselves in this, right,
my day, my week, my month, myplace that I belong to my
activities, right? But I thinkpart of understanding karma, for
me, has been knowing that it'snot just me in my actions, in
(22:05):
this space, this is made up byall of our actions. Right? Karma
is a place of collective action,where all of us are intertwined,
bound together by our actions,right? I can act in in this way.
I can, you know, rake the leavesin the yard, and it's seemingly
(22:26):
an individual activity, but intruth, that action affects my
neighbors, right, and how therushing waters outside will flow
through the yard whether or notI move the leaves out of the
way, right? I thinkunderstanding that our actions,
our individual karma, isactually related very closely,
(22:50):
especially to the people that welive with, to the people who are
our neighbors, to the people whowe interact with at work, to the
people who we form communitieswith, and to our larger world.
So often, when, when thinkingabout, what is the best action
(23:11):
right in Karma Yoga, what is theskill in action here, I always
ask myself, how, how does thisbenefit all of us, rather than
just me? What is the best thingto do for everyone, right? And
maybe that is sweet, you know,just raking the leaves so that
(23:32):
the rushing waters don't floodmy neighborhood, for example.
Or, you know what kinds ofactions will benefit all of us?
You use the example of feedingothers, of taking care of those
around us. And I firmly believethat this makes our community
(23:52):
stronger, more resilient, and wehelp to develop a spirit of
compassion in the places that welive, which is a very profound
way of of acting on the world,acting our ethics into the
(24:13):
world, right? So, seeing howkarma is where we're
interconnected with others,right? We can see that direct
relationship between service,serving others, helping others
as a means of getting beyondmyself, of seeing beyond just my
own actions and how it's goingto make my life better, rather
(24:36):
looking at what are the actionsthat will make this better for
all of us?
Nischala Joy Devi (24:46):
It's it's interesting to me that we don't
realize this on our daily lives,that we actually think that
we're individuals, and that'svery. Curious, because even if
you look at a grove of treesthat seem to be independent, if
you go to a little bit below thesurface, you see they're all
(25:08):
interconnected. And that's theway we are with our spirits.
We're all connected. And theother thing, I don't think that
most of us realize that we walkaround as gardeners every day,
and we're putting little seedseverywhere of of our actions and
how we've acted, and we burythose little seeds, and those
(25:32):
seeds then become our karma.
They germinate as karma, and itdepends on how many seeds in a
particular area you may have. Sofor instance, if someone does
something unhealthy for theirbody, and they're doing this for
year after year after year afteryear, and they've been told,
(25:52):
don't do this, because this canlead to this disease, etc, etc.
Well, every time that theyindulge in this habit, they're
planting another seed. And everytime that seed is planted, and
the seed is saying, this isharming the body. This is not
good for the body. This is doingdestruction, etc, etc, after a
(26:15):
certain amount of those seedsare accumulated, a full blown
disease could come. Maybe yes,maybe no. And then the person
says, Why did I get thisdisease? I shouldn't have gotten
this disease. And someone says,you but look, look what you did
to your body all these years. Sowe have to also see the cause
(26:39):
and effect of karma, what itdoes. Once we understand the
cause and effect, then weunderstand why Karma Yoga works.
Because if we do somethingwithout that attachment, without
that expectation, then it's aneutral energy, and it comes in
(26:59):
and the neutral energy we canuse however we want, so we use
it for our spiritual benefit. SoI just wanted to go over very
simply and quickly the differentkinds of karma, because I think
that might be a little link forpeople, first of all, to know
that there is a storehouse ofkarma that we carry around with
(27:22):
us, and often it's describedlike an archer. For some reason
this fits right in the examplewith the Bhagavad Gita, of
course, but we have this, thisstorehouse, the kamasala, where
we all the karmas are kept soand many without getting into
(27:43):
our incarnate reincarnationright now, but many believe we
take this with us from lifetimeto lifetime, the ones we don't
use. So we have this storehouseof of karma, and then it is
partitioned out in differentways. So the first is the Agami,
(28:03):
and that's the actions that havealready been determined. So this
is the one that they take thearrow out of the quiver and they
put it in the ready to shoot.
But this arrow has already beenshot. The Karma is already done,
and this is who your parentsare. As much as you would like
(28:25):
to change them or not, you can'twhere you were born, etc, etc.
And it used to be some otherthings, but now we've managed to
change some other aspects of thephysical but these are the
things that have already beendetermined, whether from past
lives or from early this life.
And that's called Agami. Andthen there's a parabta that the
(28:46):
arrow has taken. It's in thebow. It's ready to be shot. So
if you want to make any changes,this is the time, if you want to
make friends with your cousinSteven. This is the moment to do
it, because once that arrow isshot, you may not ever be able
(29:06):
to heal that relationship. Sothis is the one you do right
away. And then finally, there'sthe San Gita. And the San gitas
are really, this is the one thatreally we can work with it. It's
not come to fruition yet, but weknow somewhere it's in there. We
know that we have a fear ofsomething, or an anger towards
(29:30):
something, and this is wherepick your karma yoga, because,
say you have had a childhoodwhere you didn't have much food,
and you maybe here's a littleresentment and anger that some
people did use that to feedpeople. Go and feed people. Show
(29:51):
them this. I didn't have this,but this is what I want to give
to you. If it was clothing, dothe same. Find something that
helps you heal any wounds thatyou made he have, and then move
ahead with it. Move ahead withyour karma. Once you have fed
(30:11):
someone after you know whathunger is, there is a
satisfaction that can't benamed, and that will also help
your karma.
Kamala Rose (30:30):
So really understanding ourselves, really
taking I think this is one ofthe things we learn in
meditation, and where the thebeauty of buddhi, of Buddha yoga
is Krishna is outlining inchapter two, helps us to have a
clear view of ourselves andunderstand what we're working
with, with those different typesof karma, right? As you said,
(30:53):
the Agami, there's some thingsthat are predetermined in our
lives and the place that you'reborn, the time that we're born,
right, the body that you're borninto, and the social conditions
that come along with that,right? We're in a time of
investigating all of this in ourculture, and this is this right.
(31:16):
So I think the, I think the thepart in the Gita that is really
highlighting the internal worksays, Be realistic, be honest
with yourself about who you are,the conditions that you live in,
the conditions you were borninto, and what could you do?
What can you do in that secondoctave of karma, the parabda,
(31:42):
karma, seeing what we can do,what we can change right now,
the areas where we're notrestricted, but we can. We can
overcome incredible things. Wecan really change our lives, and
then finally, into the San Gitato really transform by our
service. But all of this, weneed a clear and insightful mind
(32:08):
to be honest with ourselves andto have an understanding about
that continuity of action,right? It didn't just start
right now. Today, we're comingfrom previous cause and effect
that creates this presentmoment. And I think there's
something so empowering aboutthat understanding of karma that
(32:31):
by my actions today, this couldbe very much change. And I think
this is what skill in action isteaching us that we have. You
know, we can take a sense ofempowerment from this
information and thisunderstanding of karma and to
(32:51):
really dig deep and understandwho am I and how can I genuinely
help people I loved what yousaid about the Sangeeta karma,
of those potential actions,where the things that we've
experienced in our lives, wehave something very genuine and
(33:16):
authentic to offer the world tomake it A better place that's
born out of personal experience,something that I know very
deeply and I can help to makebetter for others. I think this
is really a very essentialdefinition of karma. Yoga is a
deep seated desire to makethings better, and not that it's
(33:40):
easy, right? Not that it's easy.
You still have to go beyondyourself and face your, uh, face
your fears or your shortcomingsto transform that,
Nischala Joy Devi (33:53):
yeah, yeah.
And in the beginning, it may beforced, right? So we say, okay,
holidays are coming up. There'speople that are hungry. I'm
going to go down and feed them.
Oh, but it's a little rainy.
It's a little cold today. MaybeI'll do it next week, maybe
(34:14):
another time. But if youactually understand that people
are waiting for food. You getyourself out of bed, and then
the next time, it's a littleeasier, and by the third or
fourth time, you're seeing thefaces of the people and the
gratitude for giving them thesmall amount of food, and
(34:39):
there's no hesitation. That'swhen you really start seeing it,
when you're understanding itfrom their point of view, rather
than your point of view. Andthen eventually both of them go
and you're just doing theaction, but you. Try putting the
heart in it. The mind will willdo fine. But when the heart is
(35:05):
there, not are you only youhanding them some mashed
potatoes, but you're giving themlove with that, and probably
that's the most important partfor them. So mashed potatoes
plus love equals good karma.
Kamala Rose (35:28):
That's a good prescription, because there
really are so many opportunitiesto to make the world a better
place. I love the example thatyou gave earlier that we're all
gardeners, yeah, and one of mybiggest projects has been to to
(35:50):
learn permaculture gardening,and planted lots and lots of
trees and something when you'replanting a tree that is So you
know has just moved my heart somuch is that that tree that
you're planting, it's, it'sfulfilling in the moment, right?
You feel good about yourself.
You're helping the Earth. You'reserving the earth. But when you
(36:12):
really stop to think that thattree will outlive you, Yes, yep,
right? That tree is providinghappiness, probably sore
shoulders from digging, right?
You know, has provided a dirty,sweaty day for you that made you
(36:34):
happy, because the smell of soilalways makes us happy, right?
We've, we provided for theearth, we've offset global
warming, right? All in oneaction, amazing, right? But the
idea that that tree will outliveyou, yes, right? It's going to
go beyond your own personaltime, and even beyond your own
(36:58):
personal space. You will nolonger be there to enjoy that
tree, and it seems that shootingthat arrow into the future with
people who you'll never know.
You don't know if those aregoing to be good people or
corrupt people. You don't knowwho's going to enjoy the shade
of the tree. But there'ssomething in providing, you
(37:19):
know, or being a part of thisinteraction with the earth that
I think, for me, is a veryessential definition. I really
love the idea of gardening as away we can all do Karma Yoga,
right? We can serve the earth,that's it provides for us in in
(37:42):
every single bit of food thatyou eat, in every bit of water
that you drink, right, thatwe're we're able to make the
world a better place in thistiny little area. But that tiny
little area affects theatmosphere and it affects every
(38:02):
everything alive in the worldtoday. So I think it's a great
analogy for the way of thinkingthat is Karma Yoga right to be
able to use our intelligence todetermine actions that go beyond
a personal benefit. In doingthis, I'm transcending myself,
(38:27):
my own personal wants and needs,and I'm contributing something
that makes the world a betterplace, but in ways I'm not going
to see immediately, right? Imight derive some short term
benefit. I might not right, butthat's the point. Yeah, right.
(38:48):
We we have to come to therealization that you cannot
determine the results. Right?
Although we take action in theworld, you are not able to
change the world. You are notable to fix this or change this.
(39:08):
All you can do is your part,right? I think there's something
very self transcending aboutthis, obviously, right, that to
realize that I all I can do ismy part, and for my part, I hope
to make it as beneficial to asmany as possible. This is one of
(39:33):
the definitions that I've readfrom the Dalai Lama on a
positive intention, right, wherewe can think of our action in
terms of what causes the leastamount of harm to others and
benefits the most. Yeah, that'syoga sutras. Yes, yes. A very
(39:55):
simple definition, very
Nischala Joy Devi (39:57):
simple Yes.
Benefit to Sam. Harm and harm tono one. Yeah,
Kamala Rose (40:03):
in the complicated world we live in today, it's
hard, it's hard to track this.
It's hard to know that we'reconnected to so many things that
are that are bringing harm toothers, right? So I think the
choices we make about the thingswe buy, the things we interact
with in the world, right? Wehave a certain amount of choice,
(40:26):
but at a certain point, it's we,you don't know, right? We don't
really know. All we can do is doour best and have the intention
that our actions are harming theleast possible and benefiting
the most.
Nischala Joy Devi (40:45):
You know, I just want to go a little bit
further on something you said,because I think it's really an
important point that we may notknow what we do because we're
basing it on a limitedknowledge. As we begin to do
(41:06):
more karma yoga and expand moreour knowledge also becomes more
discriminating, and then we canmake a decision, no, I think
this action will help morepeople than this one will, and
therefore I now have the skillsto do it, and I'm going to do it
so we can, we can start to seewhat this does. And also,
(41:30):
something you said reminded me,and I the image of the game was
like one person that we're soconnected to the next person
that when we move four steps tothe right, we're pulling a whole
chain with us, and we're alsobeing pulled. We're not the set.
We don't know where the chainbegins and ends. We just know
(41:53):
we're all together in this so ifsomeone plants a tree, and then
500 years later, or 100 yearslater, I'm born, and I sit under
that tree. Do I think, well,somebody took the time to plant
this tree. Maybe their shouldersdid hurt afterwards. Maybe they
(42:17):
were exhausted, but now here amI enjoying it? Can I then thank
that person? Can we go back andthank that person? Or the real
question is, is it going back?
Well, we'll, we'll talk aboutthat in another session. But the
the whole idea comes then withgratitude from the person who
(42:38):
receives. So we're both, we'reon both sides of this karma yoga
scale. We give, but also peopleare giving to us at the same
time. How do we accept what'sgiven without accruing more
karma? Right? How do we? Andthen there's some yogic
(43:00):
principles that even say weshouldn't be accepting gifts
from anyone, because there'ssomething attached to it. But
then it breaks the chain,because if we don't accept, then
how can we give? Right? So therehas to be a graciousness in
giving and receiving. And whenthat happens, there's the
(43:22):
complete there's the completeKarma Yoga, I'm giving, I'm
receiving, I'm giving, I'mreceiving, and I'm grateful for
both. So it's a that's why Ievery time someone says
something about karma, or I seeit in the newspaper or
(43:42):
something, I laugh because it'sso complicated. There's nothing
simple about karma, but eachthing that we do has an effect
somewhere, another on us and onthe other people, also on who
else you serve. So you sayyou're so say, say you're
teaching a yoga class. It's aservice. If you think of it as a
(44:04):
service, you have a yoga class,and then it's a really good
class. So the next class thatcame in, you already have that
wonderful energy from theprevious class that you are now
passing through. So when you cansay, in a way, the students in
that first class generatedenough peaceful, loving energy,
(44:27):
and you as the conduit, take itand move it to the next one. And
I think that's what we become.
After a while, we become,instead of judging the Karma
Yoga, we just take the energyfrom it and we move it forward
(44:48):
to the next group, to ourmeditation, to healing, to
whatever else it is. Because Ithink it's such a powerful
energy, powerful energy, thatwe. Of this karma yoga
Kamala Rose (45:03):
becoming a generative force in that way,
yeah, right, responding topresent moment events in the
interconnected whole of time andspace called karma, cause and
effect, right? And watchingthose those fruits, right, the
the ripening of those karmas,right, affect other people,
(45:27):
right? I think for the karmayogi, I you know just what
you're saying, that we are, weare neutral in that way. We are
simply present and using our ourdiscernment, our higher capacity
developed through meditation todiscern what are the best
actions. I think that teachingyoga is a very powerful karma.
(45:51):
Yoga, I mean, can be a powerfulway of serving the world,
preserving a trend, a tradition,teaching practices that help to
make people's lives better,right? We also know that it can
be used to, you know, develop avery materialistic thing and
(46:12):
play a part in the capitalistmachine. But aside from that,
right, as yoga teachers, I knowwe really take a great deal of
meaning, great heartfelt meaningfrom sharing and teaching the
skills of yoga and bringing thepeace of a calm and centered
mind into our classrooms andenabling our students to
(46:36):
hopefully produce that on theirown without having to be
dependent on us all the time. Ithink it's a powerful intention,
much like planting a tree thatwe are, we're providing that
sort of a calm and centeredservice that for an hour and a
half, an hour hour and a half,everyone is breathing
(46:58):
peacefully, enjoying the calm ofof a yoga class, and that is
rewarding as an individual,although not something we can
necessarily certainly grasp foror try to claim, try to hang on
to and say, what a good yogateacher I am, what A good job I
(47:21):
did in the world today night totake that personal claim of the
results. So karma, yoga, Ithink, is a is a path of
learning. First and foremost, ishow I know it is a path of
learning, and just becauseyou're volunteering to do
(47:45):
something doesn't mean you'reletting go of your personal
needs and wants, right? It's notjust because you're volunteering
or just because you'revolunteering in an ashram, in a
spiritual place, right? Youcould be in a very different
situation. You could be beingpaid for your action, and it is
(48:07):
still pure karma yoga whenyou're letting go of the results
of your actions. And I thinkthis is something we should
emphasize for our listeners, isit doesn't really have anything
to do with being paid. No. Infact, as yoga teachers, I know
we're fighting to to make surethat we're compensated for the
unique work that we do. It's abig issue in our profession
(48:31):
today, right being recognizedfor the unique skills that we
have. It's they're rare. They'reunique skills, and many of us
have taken many, many years tolearn these skills and are
aspiring to give them to theworld in a way that is, that is
(48:51):
without restriction, right,without myself being in the way
serving our fellow Humans. Soit's a path, a path of learning,
a path of learning aboutyourself, a path of learning
about what it takes to serve.
And as we started today,sometimes the world doesn't, you
(49:12):
know, sometimes you get some youget some blowback, right? It's
not always a walk through thethrough a beautiful spring
garden, right? We're alwaysgoing to get the reaction of
others and learning to deal withthat and maintain equanimity.
This is Karma Yoga. You
Nischala Joy Devi (49:36):
just said some very interesting things,
and I had a smile when you said,one of the things that we're
doing is preserving thetradition, and I really believe
we are but I also believe we'retransforming it, and that's an
(49:58):
interesting karma in itself.
Just thinking about two Westernwomen sitting here talking about
the Bhagavad Gita and what itmeans to us in this time, what
karmas did we have to bringourselves to that? I kind of had
to chuckle about that a littlebit, you know, and when you were
(50:19):
talking about as a yoga teacher,I think it's a very confusing
thing in our time right nowbeing a yoga teacher, because
first of all, yoga is means somany different things to so many
people. And when I was doingbasic training to teach basic to
a yoga teacher. One of thethings I would always say to
(50:46):
them is, at the end of class, ifpeople just walk out and don't
say anything to you, that'sactually the best, right?
They're in themselves. They'renot thinking, Oh, this was a
great class, you know? They'rejust thinking, Wow, I feel
really good right now. I want tojust be quiet and walk out and
(51:08):
teachers get upset. Why didn'tthey say anything? Don't they
like it? Don't they? We have tounderstand that if we're if our
job is to help people feelpeaceful, and they finally do,
don't take them out of it, letthem be there in it. So, and
this whole idea of bringing themoney into it is very tricky.
(51:30):
It's very tricky because youhave a service, a spiritual
service, and then you bringmoney. So we have to be so
vigilant that we're taking whatwe need, but not for the greed.
That's what tips it. If you'retaking what you need to, to eat,
(51:53):
to to have your life the way youneed it is one thing, but
remember what we're doing, weare sparking this light of truth
within each person. So if you'recompensated, it's great, but you
also have to make time. Ifyou're not compensated, what can
(52:15):
you do? How can you live?
Because what I found is youstart compromising your values
for money. Oh, well, the yogastudio down the street teaches
this kind of yoga. It's notreally my kind of yoga, but look
at all the students they bringin. So we get into a whole other
(52:38):
aspect of karma. You uh, staysimple, is what I would say.
Stay simple with what you do andhow you use it, and make sure
that if someone comes to you whocan't afford it, that you take
them you let them come. And Iknow most teachers would do
(53:02):
this, but this is the how weperpetuate karma yoga. Even
though we're getting money fromit, our heart is still open in
it. So it's a very complex it'svery complicated. Nothing simple
about it. And I would say, ifyou have any doubt after you do
(53:23):
any action, sit quietly for acouple of moments and see where
it feels good and where itdoesn't feel good, and that will
determine if the act was what wecall as a perfect act, bringing
benefits to some and harm to noone.
Kamala Rose (53:45):
That's a great place to wrap up. What a
wonderful discussion. Nisha,thank you so much and great.
Thank you to our listeners. Ihope that you've already hit
subscribed and hopefully left usa review on our podcast, and if
there's anything else you'd liketo hear us discuss, please leave
it in the comments. Thank you somuch for joining us today.
(54:09):
Namaste.
Lilavati Eberle (54:13):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita
with nistula Joy, Davie andKamala rose. We would like to
express our gratitude for theongoing support for a woman's
Gita podcast and book from yogagives back a non profit
organization dedicated to theunderserved women and children
of India. Please join us againfor our next episode coming
(54:36):
soon. Namaste. You.
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