September 21, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode, Kamala Rose and Nischala Joy Devi dive into the profound dilemmas faced by Arjuna at the start of Chapter 3 of the Bhagavad Gita. Together, they explore how the ancient text’s teachings on knowledge, action, and devotion remain deeply relevant to our modern lives. Through personal stories, historical parallels, and spiritual insights, the hosts examine how we can reconcile the wisdom of philosophy with the realities of conflict—both on the battlefield and in everyday life.
Key topics covered:
- Arjuna’s crisis: The struggle between knowledge (Jnana Yoga) and action (Karma Yoga)
- The importance of devotion (Bhakti) and compassion in spiritual practice
- The concept of the higher good (Shreya) versus personal gratification (Preya)
- Parallels between ancient battles and modern-day moral dilemmas
- The impact of war on women and the role of rebuilding after conflict
- Trusting teachers and the process of spiritual growth
- Reflections on historical wars and their influence on spiritual movements
- The enduring relevance of the Gita’s teachings in contemporary society
Join us as we unpack the timeless wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita and consider what it means to serve a higher good in today’s world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:43):
Namaste. Thank you for joiningus today for a woman's Gita
Podcast. I'm Kamala rose and I'mnishilla Joy Devi today, we're
picking up our discussion at thebeginning of chapter three,
karma yoga, and we're going tostart on these first two shlokas
today.
(01:04):
If you believe that knowledge issuperior to action, Arjuna asks,
then why do you engage me inthis dreadful act of battle?
I think many of us who read theBhagavad Gita come up to this
question over and over and overagain, how is it that we can be
(01:26):
reading this refined knowledgeof yoga, this, this game
changing philosophy, and at thesame time be dealing with this
horrendous War so nishthalaDavie and I are going to dive
intoverse chapter three. Verse one,
I know she has a lot to sayabout it too.
(01:52):
The thing that makes me curiousis here we are already in
chapter three. Chapter Two, aswe know, was a big chapter, and
Arjuna still has doubts. Hestill is questioning what's
going on, even with all thiswonderful explanation and wisdom
(02:12):
that Sri Krishna has given him,he still, he still doesn't
understand and how difficult itis to practice these things that
he's asking them for. So when hesays,
If you believe that knowledge issuperior to action, why do you
engage me in this dreadful actof battle? I think probably many
(02:37):
of us are feeling that, how isthis
in relationship to that peacefulquietness that we think of when
we practice yoga, or our goal isto go to yoga. The other thing
that that struck me very strongis he's mentioning two he's
(02:58):
mentioning the wisdom, or whatwe call Jnana yoga and the
action or Karma Yoga. And in mylife, I know that there has to
be more than two,and I think we've talked about
this before, but it probably isokay to mention it again,
(03:19):
that without the devotionalaspect, without the love,
without the recognizing that thecompassion to someone who may be
in need, that the Karma Yoga, tome, is not as effective. It just
doesn't have the power ofof if you really cared, if you
(03:40):
really your heart was involvedin it. And I always go back to
the one of the scenes that I'veseen in a movie of Mother Teresa
and scraping this man who wasstuck to the road because of his
body's excreting certain bloodand mucus, and you can use your
(04:04):
imagination for the rest. Andshe doesn't just take him to a
place where he can be helped.
She literally takes him in herarms and holds him. And he dies
within the next couple ofminutes, and someone said to
her, why? Why did you evenbother? You knew he was going to
(04:27):
be dead very soon, and she said,at least for those last few
moments of his life, you knowthat someone cared. And to me,
that has to be added to it, andthis is where we get back to the
head, heart and hand, all of it.
What a beautiful combinationwe've been given in the yoga
sutras. They call it Kriya Yoga,the union of the three yogas
(04:51):
that make us so strong and sopowerful. So to me,
what about the bhakti? That'swhat I would say. What about the
bhakti? And then the other partof me says, Well, maybe he was
afraid to open his heart,because if you open your heart
and you see that you're doingharm to others, it hurts even
(05:14):
more. So this first sloka reallystirred me and got me stuck in
one place, in a way, because Ifelt this very, very strong
need for devotion, for honoringthe person. For, you know, it
(05:37):
goes back also to the native.
People of our lands, when theytalk about even killing an
animal, they pray for theanimal's soul first.
So that's what I would add. If Iwas rewriting this, I would
definitely put the bhakti inhere,
(05:57):
and you really bring our focusto the state of mind of Arjuna,
where this question is comingfrom, and I, I think, coming
from the highly philosophicalchapter two, which is a sort of
a layout, a roadmap of theBhagavad gitas philosophy and
(06:21):
discourse on reality, right? Sowe we sort of end in a
theoretical, intellectual sortof place. What we cover in
chapter two. So I think that'sreally important to remember
that in this narrative, in thistext, we are still standing on a
battlefield, and our character,who's meant to represent all of
(06:42):
us is, you know, is superconfused now, like, here I am
melting on the floor because Iam afraid to, you know, kill
these worthy people. I think Imight break the world if I do
it. Right? That's what Arjunasaying. I have a con. My Dharma
says that I'm should never dowhat I'm being asked to do.
(07:05):
Right my my family dharma. Butthen, you know, then there's
this personal Dharma that I feelright. I want to uphold the
good. I want to make sure goodpeople are in charge of this
kingdom, but I cannot reconcileit with killing my grandfather,
who is to be revered, right? Sowe're back to this very
(07:27):
subjective world of Arjunahaving a, you know, complete
crisis of identity,everyone who all the people that
he's been up until now in hislife as a mighty warrior just
melted away. Right he is. He'sin a different place right now,
and he's asking a very realquestion that, look, Krishna,
(07:51):
all this theoretical knowledgethat you just gave me about the
self, about how action works,about meditation, right? The
importance of seeing things withobjectivity. What does this have
to do with this war?
(08:12):
What about this situation? Whyare you, if all of this is true
and the Self exists in allpeople in the same way, why are
you engaging me to act in thisbattle? Right, in this very
visceral experience where bloodwill be shed and, you know, very
strongly, decisive action willbe taken. Right? Arjun is
(08:33):
saying, if you want me to go forthis goal of the self, this
refined, you know, very quiet,subtle part of my being. Then
let's talk about going to themonastery. Exactly, yeah, let's
get the hell out of here and goand walk this other path that
leads to that goal.
So you know that that real worldconflict, and I think the need
(08:59):
for heart in understanding thethe way each of us comes to this
conflict on our own right, itmight not be, I think it would
be rare for the listeners hereto have had this crisis of
conscience happenon a on a battlefield, right,
right, especially this kind of abattlefield in real life,
(09:20):
although it very well could havehappened, right? Some of our
listeners could have beensoldiers and been in this
situation, right? But for manyof us, these, this sort of
doubting of our reality, feelingin conflict with our roles. And
identities versus ourphilosophies.
(09:47):
The kind of thing that makes yousay Enough of this philosophy.
Just tell me what's the rightthing to do
when those moments come to us,especially as women, they they
were going to look a little bitdifferent. You know, it might
come at that 4am feeding, orthat one last diaper, or that
(10:07):
student in class who didn't wantto go home,
right? We come into conflictwith our values, our ethics and
our philosophies in differentways at different times in our
lives. SoI think recognizing the core of
this first shloka as just a veryreal question that we've all
askedin different ways in our own
(10:31):
languages is a good way tostart.
And then we see also in three.
Too, with these contradictorywords, you were confusing me. I
think that's that's that to me,that right there is humility,
that he's only saying that he'sconfusing him. I think he's
(10:52):
doing more than confusing him,but he's trying to be respectful
and and have a little bit ofcontrol of his emotions at this
more moment. Tell me what is theone thing I need to do to reach
the highest goal. He's stillasking for this. Okay, I
understand all this, but let'sget to this, this higher goal.
(11:15):
And, you know,I can't even imagine, although,
I think even though none of us,many of us, have not been in a
realistic war situation, we'vecertainly been on battlefields.
I know, having worked inmedicine, I was in the
battlefield almost every day,there's always something
(11:38):
happening that you have to bealert to and you have to be able
to act immediately withoutreally thinking. That's where
the training comes in themilitary or medicine or whatever
we're doing andbut you know, if you go back and
you really look at the wisdomthat comes out of some of these
(11:59):
battles and some of these warsthat we've been in,
I have to go back to theRevolutionary War, which in the
United States, which was a very,very difficult war, war in a lot
of ways, Becausethe troops were not able to have
a lot of the equipment and theclothing to protect them that
(12:25):
they would have needed. It wassort of a put together at the
last minute kind of war that,okay, let's, let's get into
this. But the one thing thatthat, that they did there that
really stayed with me, and hereagain, I see feel it on the
battlefield here, there was asaying that came and said, don't
(12:45):
shoot until you see the whitesof their eyes. And ever since I
heard this as a child, I've beencogitating and thinking about
this. What? Why would they saysomething like that? What? What
could that possibly mean? And Irealized that it brings the
whole idea of war back to alevel of humanity that you're
(13:10):
actually seeing who you'refighting. And I think what
happened here with Arjuna,that's exactly what happened. If
he had just gone out and startedshooting arrows in any way or at
people, he may not have had theemotional impact that he had
(13:31):
when he lookednot just at the whites of their
eyes, but if who they are, thisis my grandsire, this is my
uncle, this is my cousin, andyou it's very difficult to shut
that off. And I think we talkedabout this before in medicine,
(13:51):
we're taught never to treat ourfamily because there's too much
attachment to it. There's toomuch
feelings, whether good feelingsor not good feelings. And I
think this is what Arjun iscoming up against, again,
(14:12):
uh, he's he's looking, he'sseeing. This is not, these are
not the enemy as depicted. Thisis the enemy that's also my kith
and kin.
This is also part of me. So whatdo I do? And that's why he says
it in such frustration, tell mewhat the one thing I need to do
(14:34):
to reach the highest goal isthis? It that I have to kill my
my family.
So I think this is somethingthat's perpetuated too. I know
in Christianity and Catholicism,especially, a lot of the saints
that were pickeddid some awful things.
(14:57):
You know, King wenceslaw, forinstance, he killed his whole
family to get in his position,and he was sainted because he
brought more people into thefold. So I think there's this
nothing is purely good or purelybad in this kind of situation.
And I think this is what Arjunis going for, at least, this is
what I'm going through. I readit, so I'm assuming that he went
(15:21):
through a similar kind of thing.
And I want to get to that ideaof the kind of awakening that
comes out of war times in just amoment. Because, you know, we're
looking at some specific idea.
As in the Sanskrit verses here,which are fascinating,
(15:45):
Krishna is referring to thisidea of intelligence and
knowledge by using the wordbuddhi, right? You may be
familiar with this as theintelligence, the wisdom
faculty, the buddhi that weutilize in meditation, right? So
in chapter two, Krishna spokevery specifically about the use
(16:08):
of the buddhi directing that ina way that one would be able to
see a higher good, right? Thisis kind of the internal work of
karma yoga that was outlined inchapter two. So when Arjuna says
that is that knowledge, is thisknowledge through the buddhi
(16:30):
better than karma, right actingin the world this way, he uses
the epithet forfor Krishna, that is janar Dana,
which says, I am. It calls himthe agitator of men. You the
agitator of men? Tell me whichone is better, or karma, right?
(16:51):
Then he goes on to say, the whythis terrible action? Do you
urge? Oh, handsome haired oneKeshava, one of my favorite
epithets of Krishna, the onewith the beautiful hair,
then picking up in in verse two,he says, Your speech sounds
(17:18):
equivocal, right? You thesewords are contradictory. You're
confusing me.
What are you confusing? You'reconfusing my buddhi I cannot
make heads or tails of whatyou're talking about. It's
giving Moha confusion, right? Weknow this idea of Moha confusion
as being a pretty core obstacleon the path of yoga, right? When
(17:43):
the mind is cloudy, I can't Ican't sort it out too much
information. I'm overwhelmed,right? We might call this an
overwhelm.
Surely tell me what is the thehighest good. And he uses the
word here, Shreya Shreyas is ahigher good, a supreme good
(18:06):
as which is a, I think, aforeign idea to Westerners, that
there's some sort of higherstandard that that our society
is measured against. Yeah,right. I think, I think, you
know, Westerners, we come from aplace where we're, you know,
we're certainly guided by somesense of a manifest destiny,
(18:30):
like you said in the, you know,looking at American history,
which is so interesting and sorecent and so well recorded, to
kind of give usa sense of ideas in motion, in a
spiritual sense,but this idea of a higher good,
a place where all people arecared for, I think we have to
(18:52):
ask a couple questions. Whatdoes Arjuna mean by the Shreyas
that he's speaking about, showme what is the higher good,
right? Because he's framing thisin his own terms, as a Kshatriya
warrior in terms of the VedicVarna system, right? That's
where his questions coming fromand where his conflict is coming
(19:12):
from. Right? As modern readers,we're not really measuring
against a standard of societylaid out by the Vedas. We're
coming from a different placewhen we look at the idea of a
higher good, what does whatwould that mean? Right? We,
(19:34):
you know, we think about ideasof universal freedom, equality
for all people right, our civilrights movements, our women's
rights movements are built onthe idea of striving for a
higher good. But I think it's agood time to acknowledge that
the culture of the Gita and theculture of us today, there is a
(19:58):
disparity. So another placewhere our we could experience
Moha in the buddhi in readingthese verses. But
I think it's, I think, as yousaid, Nishtha, this core idea
that out of the confusion, outof everything being tossed up in
(20:19):
the air, in a sense ofreconsideration,
wars and cultural shifts thatlead to wars can often bring
this about on a personal levelfor individuals
and beget larger movements likewars.
(20:39):
There's like religious revivals,right, that lead to people
questioning their sense ofvalues and belonging in a in a
more spiritual sense,it's it's following the Vietnam
War that we have the growth ofyoga in the West, kind of
explosion where yogaSwamis and teachers and
(21:03):
vocabulary and ideas andpostures, and, you know, it was,
you know, following the VietnamWar. So wars and cultural shifts
is another dimension. I thinkthat's very interesting to
explore here.
(21:25):
You know, I think if we didn'thave the emotional attachment
and looked at war from adistance and a maybe that's why
they're not including the bhaktiin here, I don't know, but we
could see really what you'resaying, and just moving that
even further in, it becomesalmost a purge.
(21:51):
And from an emotional and ahumanitarian point of view, what
I'm saying is not so, but if youlook at it from a different
level, and like a little bitlike a moderate and not, not a
devastating, but a moderateforest fire, it's the same kind
(22:12):
of thing. It happens by itself.
It gets all the underbrushburned away so the trees can
then grow better and sustain andfor a society,
it takes a long time to overcomeand to come back from a
situation like that, especiallysince historically, this is the
(22:37):
time when the men were wiped outof societies. They were not
left. It was only women, and wesee this in the end of the Gita
too, that it's the women thatare left, the women and children
to rebuild and to make a countrythat's hopefully better than the
one that they had before. Nowsometimes that doesn't happen.
(23:02):
Sometimes it's rebuilt in theway of the the
conquerors. And it's not apleasant experience, but it's
always a big change, like you'retalking about, sometimes a
cultural shift that comes in, aphysical shift that comes in,
something happens, and even tothe land itself. You have to
(23:24):
understand that by putting theseland mines in, by bombing we're
destroying Earth itself in thisso it's a very destructive force
from the nature of the earth allthe way to nature of us and as a
human race. Yet it seems to havecome from
(23:50):
millenniums and millennials andmillenniums before this, 1000s
and 1000s of years it's beengoing on. So there must be some
purpose to itin the evolutionary process, as
we become more and I would liketo air quote this, if I may,
civilized,because that's always a question
(24:12):
in my mind. Are we becoming morecivilized? But some of us are
moving away from this idea thatwe can actually benefit by
harming someone else,and once we get the concept that
all we're harming is ourselves,you know, I was thinking the
other day. I was I was lookingat a group of people that
(24:39):
monetarily, have very little.
And they were all sittingtogether, and they were telling
stories and joking and pattingeach other on the back and doing
all kinds of things. And then Ilooked over to group people that
were very affluent,and they were very still and
serious, and I thought, whathappens to us, all the the
praying and the hoping that weget monetary stability, and then
(25:02):
we get unhappy. We're not happywith it. So it's the same thing
like this with this war. Howmuch can we get? How much can we
take? Let me put it that way,and still feel fulfilled,
because taking is not what makesus fulfilled, it's giving.
(25:24):
So we're in a big dungeon here,and this is, I think, an
important question to ask in ourrelationship with karma,
is giving and.
And takingone, one of the ways Mr.
Ramaswamy explained karma thatsticks with me forever is,
(25:51):
you know, our relationship withnature Prakriti is, you know,
explored in depth in all yogaphilosophies. But he sort of
summarized that there's a pointwhere you're taking more than
your share.
You're taking too much fromnature, right? We all this is a
core idea in the Gita. We'reentitled to our work and to our
(26:14):
labors and to this. And I thinkwhat you're saying reflected in
the people who don't have somuch, there's an understanding
that I'm not going to getanything out of this. But look
at this western culture that,you know, many people are coming
to this idea for the first timewhen they're introduced to yoga
(26:35):
philosophy and Buddhistphilosophy. And, you know,
Eastern thought that there issome place of taking too much,
of taking beyond your share. Itgoes completely against
everything that the AmericanDream is built on, and the sort
of Western ideal this, you know,underlying myth of perpetual
(26:58):
growth that we've been fed byour
our cultural paradigm, right? Wewe can understand intellectually
that it's not sustainable. Youcan't just keep growing and, you
know, bubbling and leaps andbounds, like what we see in our
global business world. We seecompanies that you never heard
(27:21):
of, and all of a sudden it's agazillion dollar business. Yeah,
right. I just saw that thedocumentary on Twitter. So
interesting, right out of anidea spawns a giant cultural
change, and, you know, the themoney, right? But at the same
(27:41):
time, you know what, what'swhere? Where's the balance in
any of this like this is whatwe're accustomed to seeing,
ginormous explosions of growthand wealth, and
often lose sight of the qualityof life that is really what
(28:04):
we're looking for, you know, tobe happy and healthy and feel
safe and loved,feel a sense of respect and that
our contributions are valuable,right Not to make a million
dollars or to become famous,like so many children are
growing up today, with the goalof becoming famous on social
(28:25):
media, which is,again, it's about a million
miles away From this battlefieldin antiquity. But the same ideas
oflearning to balance one's self
in the world one's contributionwith the
(28:51):
reciprocation with what we'rereceiving back.
I also wanted to pick up thatidea that you know, often out of
these war timeslike you, like you mentioned at
the end of this war, it whoseleft is women and children and
men you know, to rebuild asociety.
(29:16):
And I think if we look atreligious or spiritual thought
in terms of its relationship towars, we can build a kind of
interesting story thatnew ideas spreading among women
(29:37):
post war, taking lots of manyseeds sprouting
over time, right? Becoming moreinstitutionalized, more
conservative, growing intogreater patriarchal structures,
right? But just look at youbrought up the Revolutionary
War. I mean, before that, theUnited States was largely made
(30:01):
of Calvinists, very conservativereligious sects. And after the
Revolutionary War, a whole newdiversity starts to grow. And
then after the subsequent warsin the Civil War, in particular,
a huge explosion in Quakers theTheosophists, started making
(30:24):
their way to the West Coast. Idon't know if you've ever heard
of a wonderful woman namedCatherine Tingley.
I've always been a huge fan. Shewrites very much from the heart.
Heart, and she had her spiritualawakening on the battlefield in
the Civil War as a nurse, caringfor caring for all of the
(30:48):
wounded. And she was a daughterof a wealthy family, and out of
her experience on thebattlefield, she made her way
west to California. She followedthat American sense of
hopefulness and utopianism tothe West Coast, and became a
(31:12):
very integral part of thefounding of the Point Loma
branch of the TheosophicalSociety, and she's sometimes
credited as bringing the avocadoto California. Oh, interesting,
interesting. Yes, where did shebring it from Mexico? Oh, okay,
(31:36):
okay, that's, that's great.
That's a great story. Yeah, youknow, I think that sometimes we
confuse. And if we look at you,mentioned two different, very
different wars, mentioned arevolutionary in the civil and I
think thatthe reasons for each were very
different, why they were fought,and
(32:00):
because of the morality issueand the humanity issue of the
Civil War, that, to me, is whyall these others grew up, the
Philosophical Society, etcetera, whereas the
Revolutionary War was A verydifferent war. It was breaking
(32:20):
off from England and for ourindependence.
So the flavor of the warlasts till afterwards, so that
so when we start to reconstructafter something has been
destroyed,hopefully, the reason that that
was foughtis part of the reconstruction.
(32:44):
So this was because everybodyshould be seen as a human. No
human should be seen as partialas it was during the Civil War.
And so to me, it would be verylogical for these very
humanistic, spiritual paths andgroups to come forward
(33:10):
like what went on during theCivil War, the the underground
railroads andthe All the getting slaves out,
etc, etc. Italmost forced people into a
morality that they in everydaylife they may not have
appreciated, but because it wassuch a
(33:35):
catastrophic experience, foughtin on the land where people
actually lived. I think therewas a big change in it from
that. And so I have to I thoseare the ones I'm familiar with.
And you talk about heroes likethe Crimean War, my hero was
Florence Nightingale, being amedical person that, and through
(33:58):
that, the what she saw wasbrought nightmares, but in it,
she had the ability, and I thinkthis is what we're getting at
here in the Gita. I'm hopingthat's what we're getting at
through thisawfulness of men screaming in
pain, rotting in their own beds,etc. She just took the simplest
(34:23):
things and she said, How can Imake them a little more
comfortable? How can I make thisa little more human? Maybe by
putting a bell beside their bedso they don't have to scream
out. They can ring it if theyneed us, washing them just the
simplest thing she thought ofthat changed everything still
(34:49):
today. This is what used, notthe little bell anymore. They
have much sophisticated bells toring, but this was her way of
making this war, this horrendousexperience, human.
(35:10):
And I think that's what thespirituality is, to find some
kind of humanness andspirituality in even the worst,
strong, strong image and strongreality of the gitas teachings.
(35:30):
Because really, in each chapter,we are brought back to the
battlefield and have to confrontthe you know, the setting of the
story.
As weencounter ever increasingly
refined spiritual philosophythat's also contained right next
toa very violent situation. So I
(35:51):
think the time to reframe thesituation and consider what does
that mean to you today? Whatdoes that mean to us today, to
serve a higher good?
The idea of Shreya,right? We're talking about a way
(36:13):
thata serving serving a higher good,
something that's beyond apersonal need.
It's to help keep societyhealthy. And
you know, I It's one of thethings I really love about
(36:35):
reading the especially the theancient Sanskrit prayers on
peace. And I see this addressingof the higher good all the time.
And that idea that May allbeings be well, may loka
(36:55):
samasta, sukino bhavantu, Mayeveryone everywhere be happy and
free. I mean, what a beautifulstatement of the higher good,
right? It's it goes theUpanishads speak of this, the
kata Upanishad beautifullyspeaks of Shreya, the higher
good, in terms of a contrast,what is good and what is prayer,
(37:21):
what is gratifying to theindividual? Right?
Yama, the god of death, asks thestudent to contemplate knowing
the difference between Shreya,the highest good, and prayer,
the personal want, right, right?
Something that's gratifying tothe ego. These are important.
(37:41):
This is where the discernmentlies. This is where we are able
to tell whether you're takingmore than your share, whether
you're taking too much fromproperty. And the scales become
unbalanced. And I asked myselfthis question all the time, is
this good, or is it gratifying?
(38:06):
Is it Shreya,or is it Praya? And so the
tradition asks us this and givesus these examples, these
beautiful prayers, andyou know, to think of something
like the Mangala mantra thatspeaks of,
you know, a time far before ourcurrent history, where the this
(38:31):
very honest wish for the welfareof all says, may our leaders not
be corrupt. May they pleasefollow the path that's best for
all of the people, right? We getthis idea that the struggles
that we are struggling withtoday are the same struggles
that our spiritual ancestorseast and west have struggled
(38:53):
with, right? The all of thepeople on the precipice of war,
whether that's the Civil War,the Revolutionary War, the
Crimean War, or this battle ofkruschettra in ancient history.
Throughout history, these wars,seemingly were fought because of
(39:14):
maintaining the higher good,right? That's been a
rationalization for war,exactly, yeah, and at the same
time the rationalization for therebuilding afterward. So I think
this just really invites us toto think about these ideas, not
(39:34):
as like just one single answeror one single way of
understanding the concept ofShreya, or that word, we can't I
think that's what I love so muchabout Sanskrit, is you can't put
it in a tiny box and say thatyou just understand it. It
requires going over it andtaking it up in your mind and
(39:56):
thinking about the way you thinkabout it. And
how do you picture that highergood? Nishthala, how do you
serve that higher good? I do mybest,
you know? I try to take a stepback when something happens. I
think I was talking to someoneyesterday, the other day, and
(40:20):
this is don't just do something.
Stand there.
Observe First, take a moment tolook at the whole situation and
even the teacher I know, havingbeen under the tutelage of a
yoga master for so long.
Most, I have to say, most ofwhat I felt, how he taught was
(40:44):
irrational at times, anddid I always do it? No, because
sometimes my mind didn't agreewith it, and
and then sometimes I did,because I could go, I stopped
enough like just what you'resaying, Kamala, I stopped enough
(41:06):
to to look at it and say, My Ifeel like he has the greater
good in his consciousness. AndI'm going to go with it, even if
I don't understand it.
But I think we have to be verycareful, because we have to
purify ourselves enough to knowif this is something that's
(41:32):
going to elevate us and it isfor the greater good or not, and
until that purification happens.
Sometimes we have to trust ateacher that they know. So we
have to be very careful how wechoose a teacher. And when you
were talking about these ancientprayers and slokas,
(41:55):
one of my favorite that thatI've done every morning for
no matter how many years ends inMA, VID, Visha, vahaee. And this
is translated in a very fewdifferent ways, but one of the
ways it was translated is you'retalking to the teacher. This is,
(42:17):
this is a dialog between you andyour teacher, it can be an
external teacher. It can be aninternal teacher.
But what you're saying is, maywe harbor no ill feelings toward
each other.
And I could never figure out whythis would be there.
(42:39):
But when I read the Gita, itmakes sense
the teacher is pushing you to dosomething that you can't see the
bigger picture of, and you maystart to resent it. I know
people do, and they get angrythen at the teacher who's trying
to move us forward. So thischant is saying to us, this
(43:03):
sloka is saying to us,don't cherish any ill feelings
toward each other.
There's a high like you'retalking about. There's a higher
purpose for all of this. Havetrust, a matter of fact, and
then it could also mean yourfellow
(43:24):
UPA gurus, your little gurusthat are all around you.
Actually, when we did this, wechanted that last line three
times for emphasis, to make surethat we knew what it was about
and to develop more of thistrust that they are taking us in
the direction, and it could beour own heart that's taking us
(43:46):
in the direction that we don'teven follow. It's a way to trust
and what a what a great thoughtto end on. Sahana vavatu,
sahanau, bhunaku, sahavir,yankar, may we cherish
(44:17):
no ill feelings toward anyoneI'll just, I just want to say
before I turn on my computerevery morning, I chant this,
right? I I have a I see mycomputer screen and the zoom as
a way of being together withother people, and, you know,
really connecting throughthrough through the internet,
(44:39):
with people I've never metbefore. And to me, that's,
that's where I've got thattogetherness, that
it's very, it's a very hopefulthing. And I, you know, I've,
I've prayed this prayer for somany years also, and taken so
much meaning, and I feel likeyou know it at this stage in my
(45:02):
life, and it's you know, it hasa special meaning that I meet
people like you and like ourlisteners by coming together
here in podcast land. So thanksfor joining us today, everybody.
That was a nice way for me towrap it up.
And we thank you all so much formaking time to listen to our
(45:23):
dialogs. We'll look forward toseeing you next time. Namaste.
Namaste. You.
Namaste. Thank you for joiningus today for a woman's Gita
Podcast. I'm Kamala rose and I'mnishilla Joy Devi today, we're
picking up our discussion at thebeginning of chapter three,
karma yoga, and we're going tostart on these first two shlokas
today.
(01:04):
If you believe that knowledge issuperior to action, Arjuna asks,
then why do you engage me inthis dreadful act of battle?
I think many of us who read theBhagavad Gita come up to this
question over and over and overagain, how is it that we can be
(01:26):
reading this refined knowledgeof yoga, this, this game
changing philosophy, and at thesame time be dealing with this
horrendous War so nishthalaDavie and I are going to dive
intoverse chapter three. Verse one,
I know she has a lot to sayabout it too.
(01:52):
The thing that makes me curiousis here we are already in
chapter three. Chapter Two, aswe know, was a big chapter, and
Arjuna still has doubts. Hestill is questioning what's
going on, even with all thiswonderful explanation and wisdom
(02:12):
that Sri Krishna has given him,he still, he still doesn't
understand and how difficult itis to practice these things that
he's asking them for. So when hesays,
If you believe that knowledge issuperior to action, why do you
engage me in this dreadful actof battle? I think probably many
(02:37):
of us are feeling that, how isthis
in relationship to that peacefulquietness that we think of when
we practice yoga, or our goal isto go to yoga. The other thing
that that struck me very strongis he's mentioning two he's
(02:58):
mentioning the wisdom, or whatwe call Jnana yoga and the
action or Karma Yoga. And in mylife, I know that there has to
be more than two,and I think we've talked about
this before, but it probably isokay to mention it again,
(03:19):
that without the devotionalaspect, without the love,
without the recognizing that thecompassion to someone who may be
in need, that the Karma Yoga, tome, is not as effective. It just
doesn't have the power ofof if you really cared, if you
(03:40):
really your heart was involvedin it. And I always go back to
the one of the scenes that I'veseen in a movie of Mother Teresa
and scraping this man who wasstuck to the road because of his
body's excreting certain bloodand mucus, and you can use your
(04:04):
imagination for the rest. Andshe doesn't just take him to a
place where he can be helped.
She literally takes him in herarms and holds him. And he dies
within the next couple ofminutes, and someone said to
her, why? Why did you evenbother? You knew he was going to
(04:27):
be dead very soon, and she said,at least for those last few
moments of his life, you knowthat someone cared. And to me,
that has to be added to it, andthis is where we get back to the
head, heart and hand, all of it.
What a beautiful combinationwe've been given in the yoga
sutras. They call it Kriya Yoga,the union of the three yogas
(04:51):
that make us so strong and sopowerful. So to me,
what about the bhakti? That'swhat I would say. What about the
bhakti? And then the other partof me says, Well, maybe he was
afraid to open his heart,because if you open your heart
and you see that you're doingharm to others, it hurts even
(05:14):
more. So this first sloka reallystirred me and got me stuck in
one place, in a way, because Ifelt this very, very strong
need for devotion, for honoringthe person. For, you know, it
(05:37):
goes back also to the native.
People of our lands, when theytalk about even killing an
animal, they pray for theanimal's soul first.
So that's what I would add. If Iwas rewriting this, I would
definitely put the bhakti inhere,
(05:57):
and you really bring our focusto the state of mind of Arjuna,
where this question is comingfrom, and I, I think, coming
from the highly philosophicalchapter two, which is a sort of
a layout, a roadmap of theBhagavad gitas philosophy and
(06:21):
discourse on reality, right? Sowe we sort of end in a
theoretical, intellectual sortof place. What we cover in
chapter two. So I think that'sreally important to remember
that in this narrative, in thistext, we are still standing on a
battlefield, and our character,who's meant to represent all of
(06:42):
us is, you know, is superconfused now, like, here I am
melting on the floor because Iam afraid to, you know, kill
these worthy people. I think Imight break the world if I do
it. Right? That's what Arjunasaying. I have a con. My Dharma
says that I'm should never dowhat I'm being asked to do.
(07:05):
Right my my family dharma. Butthen, you know, then there's
this personal Dharma that I feelright. I want to uphold the
good. I want to make sure goodpeople are in charge of this
kingdom, but I cannot reconcileit with killing my grandfather,
who is to be revered, right? Sowe're back to this very
(07:27):
subjective world of Arjunahaving a, you know, complete
crisis of identity,everyone who all the people that
he's been up until now in hislife as a mighty warrior just
melted away. Right he is. He'sin a different place right now,
and he's asking a very realquestion that, look, Krishna,
(07:51):
all this theoretical knowledgethat you just gave me about the
self, about how action works,about meditation, right? The
importance of seeing things withobjectivity. What does this have
to do with this war?
(08:12):
What about this situation? Whyare you, if all of this is true
and the Self exists in allpeople in the same way, why are
you engaging me to act in thisbattle? Right, in this very
visceral experience where bloodwill be shed and, you know, very
strongly, decisive action willbe taken. Right? Arjun is
(08:33):
saying, if you want me to go forthis goal of the self, this
refined, you know, very quiet,subtle part of my being. Then
let's talk about going to themonastery. Exactly, yeah, let's
get the hell out of here and goand walk this other path that
leads to that goal.
So you know that that real worldconflict, and I think the need
(08:59):
for heart in understanding thethe way each of us comes to this
conflict on our own right, itmight not be, I think it would
be rare for the listeners hereto have had this crisis of
conscience happenon a on a battlefield, right,
right, especially this kind of abattlefield in real life,
(09:20):
although it very well could havehappened, right? Some of our
listeners could have beensoldiers and been in this
situation, right? But for manyof us, these, this sort of
doubting of our reality, feelingin conflict with our roles. And
identities versus ourphilosophies.
(09:47):
The kind of thing that makes yousay Enough of this philosophy.
Just tell me what's the rightthing to do
when those moments come to us,especially as women, they they
were going to look a little bitdifferent. You know, it might
come at that 4am feeding, orthat one last diaper, or that
(10:07):
student in class who didn't wantto go home,
right? We come into conflictwith our values, our ethics and
our philosophies in differentways at different times in our
lives. SoI think recognizing the core of
this first shloka as just a veryreal question that we've all
askedin different ways in our own
(10:31):
languages is a good way tostart.
And then we see also in three.
Too, with these contradictorywords, you were confusing me. I
think that's that's that to me,that right there is humility,
that he's only saying that he'sconfusing him. I think he's
(10:52):
doing more than confusing him,but he's trying to be respectful
and and have a little bit ofcontrol of his emotions at this
more moment. Tell me what is theone thing I need to do to reach
the highest goal. He's stillasking for this. Okay, I
understand all this, but let'sget to this, this higher goal.
(11:15):
And, you know,I can't even imagine, although,
I think even though none of us,many of us, have not been in a
realistic war situation, we'vecertainly been on battlefields.
I know, having worked inmedicine, I was in the
battlefield almost every day,there's always something
(11:38):
happening that you have to bealert to and you have to be able
to act immediately withoutreally thinking. That's where
the training comes in themilitary or medicine or whatever
we're doing andbut you know, if you go back and
you really look at the wisdomthat comes out of some of these
(11:59):
battles and some of these warsthat we've been in,
I have to go back to theRevolutionary War, which in the
United States, which was a very,very difficult war, war in a lot
of ways, Becausethe troops were not able to have
a lot of the equipment and theclothing to protect them that
(12:25):
they would have needed. It wassort of a put together at the
last minute kind of war that,okay, let's, let's get into
this. But the one thing thatthat, that they did there that
really stayed with me, and hereagain, I see feel it on the
battlefield here, there was asaying that came and said, don't
(12:45):
shoot until you see the whitesof their eyes. And ever since I
heard this as a child, I've beencogitating and thinking about
this. What? Why would they saysomething like that? What? What
could that possibly mean? And Irealized that it brings the
whole idea of war back to alevel of humanity that you're
(13:10):
actually seeing who you'refighting. And I think what
happened here with Arjuna,that's exactly what happened. If
he had just gone out and startedshooting arrows in any way or at
people, he may not have had theemotional impact that he had
(13:31):
when he lookednot just at the whites of their
eyes, but if who they are, thisis my grandsire, this is my
uncle, this is my cousin, andyou it's very difficult to shut
that off. And I think we talkedabout this before in medicine,
(13:51):
we're taught never to treat ourfamily because there's too much
attachment to it. There's toomuch
feelings, whether good feelingsor not good feelings. And I
think this is what Arjun iscoming up against, again,
(14:12):
uh, he's he's looking, he'sseeing. This is not, these are
not the enemy as depicted. Thisis the enemy that's also my kith
and kin.
This is also part of me. So whatdo I do? And that's why he says
it in such frustration, tell mewhat the one thing I need to do
(14:34):
to reach the highest goal isthis? It that I have to kill my
my family.
So I think this is somethingthat's perpetuated too. I know
in Christianity and Catholicism,especially, a lot of the saints
that were pickeddid some awful things.
(14:57):
You know, King wenceslaw, forinstance, he killed his whole
family to get in his position,and he was sainted because he
brought more people into thefold. So I think there's this
nothing is purely good or purelybad in this kind of situation.
And I think this is what Arjunis going for, at least, this is
what I'm going through. I readit, so I'm assuming that he went
(15:21):
through a similar kind of thing.
And I want to get to that ideaof the kind of awakening that
comes out of war times in just amoment. Because, you know, we're
looking at some specific idea.
As in the Sanskrit verses here,which are fascinating,
(15:45):
Krishna is referring to thisidea of intelligence and
knowledge by using the wordbuddhi, right? You may be
familiar with this as theintelligence, the wisdom
faculty, the buddhi that weutilize in meditation, right? So
in chapter two, Krishna spokevery specifically about the use
(16:08):
of the buddhi directing that ina way that one would be able to
see a higher good, right? Thisis kind of the internal work of
karma yoga that was outlined inchapter two. So when Arjuna says
that is that knowledge, is thisknowledge through the buddhi
(16:30):
better than karma, right actingin the world this way, he uses
the epithet forfor Krishna, that is janar Dana,
which says, I am. It calls himthe agitator of men. You the
agitator of men? Tell me whichone is better, or karma, right?
(16:51):
Then he goes on to say, the whythis terrible action? Do you
urge? Oh, handsome haired oneKeshava, one of my favorite
epithets of Krishna, the onewith the beautiful hair,
then picking up in in verse two,he says, Your speech sounds
(17:18):
equivocal, right? You thesewords are contradictory. You're
confusing me.
What are you confusing? You'reconfusing my buddhi I cannot
make heads or tails of whatyou're talking about. It's
giving Moha confusion, right? Weknow this idea of Moha confusion
as being a pretty core obstacleon the path of yoga, right? When
(17:43):
the mind is cloudy, I can't Ican't sort it out too much
information. I'm overwhelmed,right? We might call this an
overwhelm.
Surely tell me what is the thehighest good. And he uses the
word here, Shreya Shreyas is ahigher good, a supreme good
(18:06):
as which is a, I think, aforeign idea to Westerners, that
there's some sort of higherstandard that that our society
is measured against. Yeah,right. I think, I think, you
know, Westerners, we come from aplace where we're, you know,
we're certainly guided by somesense of a manifest destiny,
(18:30):
like you said in the, you know,looking at American history,
which is so interesting and sorecent and so well recorded, to
kind of give usa sense of ideas in motion, in a
spiritual sense,but this idea of a higher good,
a place where all people arecared for, I think we have to
(18:52):
ask a couple questions. Whatdoes Arjuna mean by the Shreyas
that he's speaking about, showme what is the higher good,
right? Because he's framing thisin his own terms, as a Kshatriya
warrior in terms of the VedicVarna system, right? That's
where his questions coming fromand where his conflict is coming
(19:12):
from. Right? As modern readers,we're not really measuring
against a standard of societylaid out by the Vedas. We're
coming from a different placewhen we look at the idea of a
higher good, what does whatwould that mean? Right? We,
(19:34):
you know, we think about ideasof universal freedom, equality
for all people right, our civilrights movements, our women's
rights movements are built onthe idea of striving for a
higher good. But I think it's agood time to acknowledge that
the culture of the Gita and theculture of us today, there is a
(19:58):
disparity. So another placewhere our we could experience
Moha in the buddhi in readingthese verses. But
I think it's, I think, as yousaid, Nishtha, this core idea
that out of the confusion, outof everything being tossed up in
(20:19):
the air, in a sense ofreconsideration,
wars and cultural shifts thatlead to wars can often bring
this about on a personal levelfor individuals
and beget larger movements likewars.
(20:39):
There's like religious revivals,right, that lead to people
questioning their sense ofvalues and belonging in a in a
more spiritual sense,it's it's following the Vietnam
War that we have the growth ofyoga in the West, kind of
explosion where yogaSwamis and teachers and
(21:03):
vocabulary and ideas andpostures, and, you know, it was,
you know, following the VietnamWar. So wars and cultural shifts
is another dimension. I thinkthat's very interesting to
explore here.
(21:25):
You know, I think if we didn'thave the emotional attachment
and looked at war from adistance and a maybe that's why
they're not including the bhaktiin here, I don't know, but we
could see really what you'resaying, and just moving that
even further in, it becomesalmost a purge.
(21:51):
And from an emotional and ahumanitarian point of view, what
I'm saying is not so, but if youlook at it from a different
level, and like a little bitlike a moderate and not, not a
devastating, but a moderateforest fire, it's the same kind
(22:12):
of thing. It happens by itself.
It gets all the underbrushburned away so the trees can
then grow better and sustain andfor a society,
it takes a long time to overcomeand to come back from a
situation like that, especiallysince historically, this is the
(22:37):
time when the men were wiped outof societies. They were not
left. It was only women, and wesee this in the end of the Gita
too, that it's the women thatare left, the women and children
to rebuild and to make a countrythat's hopefully better than the
one that they had before. Nowsometimes that doesn't happen.
(23:02):
Sometimes it's rebuilt in theway of the the
conquerors. And it's not apleasant experience, but it's
always a big change, like you'retalking about, sometimes a
cultural shift that comes in, aphysical shift that comes in,
something happens, and even tothe land itself. You have to
(23:24):
understand that by putting theseland mines in, by bombing we're
destroying Earth itself in thisso it's a very destructive force
from the nature of the earth allthe way to nature of us and as a
human race. Yet it seems to havecome from
(23:50):
millenniums and millennials andmillenniums before this, 1000s
and 1000s of years it's beengoing on. So there must be some
purpose to itin the evolutionary process, as
we become more and I would liketo air quote this, if I may,
civilized,because that's always a question
(24:12):
in my mind. Are we becoming morecivilized? But some of us are
moving away from this idea thatwe can actually benefit by
harming someone else,and once we get the concept that
all we're harming is ourselves,you know, I was thinking the
other day. I was I was lookingat a group of people that
(24:39):
monetarily, have very little.
And they were all sittingtogether, and they were telling
stories and joking and pattingeach other on the back and doing
all kinds of things. And then Ilooked over to group people that
were very affluent,and they were very still and
serious, and I thought, whathappens to us, all the the
praying and the hoping that weget monetary stability, and then
(25:02):
we get unhappy. We're not happywith it. So it's the same thing
like this with this war. Howmuch can we get? How much can we
take? Let me put it that way,and still feel fulfilled,
because taking is not what makesus fulfilled, it's giving.
(25:24):
So we're in a big dungeon here,and this is, I think, an
important question to ask in ourrelationship with karma,
is giving and.
And takingone, one of the ways Mr.
Ramaswamy explained karma thatsticks with me forever is,
(25:51):
you know, our relationship withnature Prakriti is, you know,
explored in depth in all yogaphilosophies. But he sort of
summarized that there's a pointwhere you're taking more than
your share.
You're taking too much fromnature, right? We all this is a
core idea in the Gita. We'reentitled to our work and to our
(26:14):
labors and to this. And I thinkwhat you're saying reflected in
the people who don't have somuch, there's an understanding
that I'm not going to getanything out of this. But look
at this western culture that,you know, many people are coming
to this idea for the first timewhen they're introduced to yoga
(26:35):
philosophy and Buddhistphilosophy. And, you know,
Eastern thought that there issome place of taking too much,
of taking beyond your share. Itgoes completely against
everything that the AmericanDream is built on, and the sort
of Western ideal this, you know,underlying myth of perpetual
(26:58):
growth that we've been fed byour
our cultural paradigm, right? Wewe can understand intellectually
that it's not sustainable. Youcan't just keep growing and, you
know, bubbling and leaps andbounds, like what we see in our
global business world. We seecompanies that you never heard
(27:21):
of, and all of a sudden it's agazillion dollar business. Yeah,
right. I just saw that thedocumentary on Twitter. So
interesting, right out of anidea spawns a giant cultural
change, and, you know, the themoney, right? But at the same
(27:41):
time, you know what, what'swhere? Where's the balance in
any of this like this is whatwe're accustomed to seeing,
ginormous explosions of growthand wealth, and
often lose sight of the qualityof life that is really what
(28:04):
we're looking for, you know, tobe happy and healthy and feel
safe and loved,feel a sense of respect and that
our contributions are valuable,right Not to make a million
dollars or to become famous,like so many children are
growing up today, with the goalof becoming famous on social
(28:25):
media, which is,again, it's about a million
miles away From this battlefieldin antiquity. But the same ideas
oflearning to balance one's self
in the world one's contributionwith the
(28:51):
reciprocation with what we'rereceiving back.
I also wanted to pick up thatidea that you know, often out of
these war timeslike you, like you mentioned at
the end of this war, it whoseleft is women and children and
men you know, to rebuild asociety.
(29:16):
And I think if we look atreligious or spiritual thought
in terms of its relationship towars, we can build a kind of
interesting story thatnew ideas spreading among women
(29:37):
post war, taking lots of manyseeds sprouting
over time, right? Becoming moreinstitutionalized, more
conservative, growing intogreater patriarchal structures,
right? But just look at youbrought up the Revolutionary
War. I mean, before that, theUnited States was largely made
(30:01):
of Calvinists, very conservativereligious sects. And after the
Revolutionary War, a whole newdiversity starts to grow. And
then after the subsequent warsin the Civil War, in particular,
a huge explosion in Quakers theTheosophists, started making
(30:24):
their way to the West Coast. Idon't know if you've ever heard
of a wonderful woman namedCatherine Tingley.
I've always been a huge fan. Shewrites very much from the heart.
Heart, and she had her spiritualawakening on the battlefield in
the Civil War as a nurse, caringfor caring for all of the
(30:48):
wounded. And she was a daughterof a wealthy family, and out of
her experience on thebattlefield, she made her way
west to California. She followedthat American sense of
hopefulness and utopianism tothe West Coast, and became a
(31:12):
very integral part of thefounding of the Point Loma
branch of the TheosophicalSociety, and she's sometimes
credited as bringing the avocadoto California. Oh, interesting,
interesting. Yes, where did shebring it from Mexico? Oh, okay,
(31:36):
okay, that's, that's great.
That's a great story. Yeah, youknow, I think that sometimes we
confuse. And if we look at you,mentioned two different, very
different wars, mentioned arevolutionary in the civil and I
think thatthe reasons for each were very
different, why they were fought,and
(32:00):
because of the morality issueand the humanity issue of the
Civil War, that, to me, is whyall these others grew up, the
Philosophical Society, etcetera, whereas the
Revolutionary War was A verydifferent war. It was breaking
(32:20):
off from England and for ourindependence.
So the flavor of the warlasts till afterwards, so that
so when we start to reconstructafter something has been
destroyed,hopefully, the reason that that
was foughtis part of the reconstruction.
(32:44):
So this was because everybodyshould be seen as a human. No
human should be seen as partialas it was during the Civil War.
And so to me, it would be verylogical for these very
humanistic, spiritual paths andgroups to come forward
(33:10):
like what went on during theCivil War, the the underground
railroads andthe All the getting slaves out,
etc, etc. Italmost forced people into a
morality that they in everydaylife they may not have
appreciated, but because it wassuch a
(33:35):
catastrophic experience, foughtin on the land where people
actually lived. I think therewas a big change in it from
that. And so I have to I thoseare the ones I'm familiar with.
And you talk about heroes likethe Crimean War, my hero was
Florence Nightingale, being amedical person that, and through
(33:58):
that, the what she saw wasbrought nightmares, but in it,
she had the ability, and I thinkthis is what we're getting at
here in the Gita. I'm hopingthat's what we're getting at
through thisawfulness of men screaming in
pain, rotting in their own beds,etc. She just took the simplest
(34:23):
things and she said, How can Imake them a little more
comfortable? How can I make thisa little more human? Maybe by
putting a bell beside their bedso they don't have to scream
out. They can ring it if theyneed us, washing them just the
simplest thing she thought ofthat changed everything still
(34:49):
today. This is what used, notthe little bell anymore. They
have much sophisticated bells toring, but this was her way of
making this war, this horrendousexperience, human.
(35:10):
And I think that's what thespirituality is, to find some
kind of humanness andspirituality in even the worst,
strong, strong image and strongreality of the gitas teachings.
(35:30):
Because really, in each chapter,we are brought back to the
battlefield and have to confrontthe you know, the setting of the
story.
As weencounter ever increasingly
refined spiritual philosophythat's also contained right next
toa very violent situation. So I
(35:51):
think the time to reframe thesituation and consider what does
that mean to you today? Whatdoes that mean to us today, to
serve a higher good?
The idea of Shreya,right? We're talking about a way
(36:13):
thata serving serving a higher good,
something that's beyond apersonal need.
It's to help keep societyhealthy. And
you know, I It's one of thethings I really love about
(36:35):
reading the especially the theancient Sanskrit prayers on
peace. And I see this addressingof the higher good all the time.
And that idea that May allbeings be well, may loka
(36:55):
samasta, sukino bhavantu, Mayeveryone everywhere be happy and
free. I mean, what a beautifulstatement of the higher good,
right? It's it goes theUpanishads speak of this, the
kata Upanishad beautifullyspeaks of Shreya, the higher
good, in terms of a contrast,what is good and what is prayer,
(37:21):
what is gratifying to theindividual? Right?
Yama, the god of death, asks thestudent to contemplate knowing
the difference between Shreya,the highest good, and prayer,
the personal want, right, right?
Something that's gratifying tothe ego. These are important.
(37:41):
This is where the discernmentlies. This is where we are able
to tell whether you're takingmore than your share, whether
you're taking too much fromproperty. And the scales become
unbalanced. And I asked myselfthis question all the time, is
this good, or is it gratifying?
(38:06):
Is it Shreya,or is it Praya? And so the
tradition asks us this and givesus these examples, these
beautiful prayers, andyou know, to think of something
like the Mangala mantra thatspeaks of,
you know, a time far before ourcurrent history, where the this
(38:31):
very honest wish for the welfareof all says, may our leaders not
be corrupt. May they pleasefollow the path that's best for
all of the people, right? We getthis idea that the struggles
that we are struggling withtoday are the same struggles
that our spiritual ancestorseast and west have struggled
(38:53):
with, right? The all of thepeople on the precipice of war,
whether that's the Civil War,the Revolutionary War, the
Crimean War, or this battle ofkruschettra in ancient history.
Throughout history, these wars,seemingly were fought because of
(39:14):
maintaining the higher good,right? That's been a
rationalization for war,exactly, yeah, and at the same
time the rationalization for therebuilding afterward. So I think
this just really invites us toto think about these ideas, not
(39:34):
as like just one single answeror one single way of
understanding the concept ofShreya, or that word, we can't I
think that's what I love so muchabout Sanskrit, is you can't put
it in a tiny box and say thatyou just understand it. It
requires going over it andtaking it up in your mind and
(39:56):
thinking about the way you thinkabout it. And
how do you picture that highergood? Nishthala, how do you
serve that higher good? I do mybest,
you know? I try to take a stepback when something happens. I
think I was talking to someoneyesterday, the other day, and
(40:20):
this is don't just do something.
Stand there.
Observe First, take a moment tolook at the whole situation and
even the teacher I know, havingbeen under the tutelage of a
yoga master for so long.
Most, I have to say, most ofwhat I felt, how he taught was
(40:44):
irrational at times, anddid I always do it? No, because
sometimes my mind didn't agreewith it, and
and then sometimes I did,because I could go, I stopped
enough like just what you'resaying, Kamala, I stopped enough
(41:06):
to to look at it and say, My Ifeel like he has the greater
good in his consciousness. AndI'm going to go with it, even if
I don't understand it.
But I think we have to be verycareful, because we have to
purify ourselves enough to knowif this is something that's
(41:32):
going to elevate us and it isfor the greater good or not, and
until that purification happens.
Sometimes we have to trust ateacher that they know. So we
have to be very careful how wechoose a teacher. And when you
were talking about these ancientprayers and slokas,
(41:55):
one of my favorite that thatI've done every morning for
no matter how many years ends inMA, VID, Visha, vahaee. And this
is translated in a very fewdifferent ways, but one of the
ways it was translated is you'retalking to the teacher. This is,
(42:17):
this is a dialog between you andyour teacher, it can be an
external teacher. It can be aninternal teacher.
But what you're saying is, maywe harbor no ill feelings toward
each other.
And I could never figure out whythis would be there.
(42:39):
But when I read the Gita, itmakes sense
the teacher is pushing you to dosomething that you can't see the
bigger picture of, and you maystart to resent it. I know
people do, and they get angrythen at the teacher who's trying
to move us forward. So thischant is saying to us, this
(43:03):
sloka is saying to us,don't cherish any ill feelings
toward each other.
There's a high like you'retalking about. There's a higher
purpose for all of this. Havetrust, a matter of fact, and
then it could also mean yourfellow
(43:24):
UPA gurus, your little gurusthat are all around you.
Actually, when we did this, wechanted that last line three
times for emphasis, to make surethat we knew what it was about
and to develop more of thistrust that they are taking us in
the direction, and it could beour own heart that's taking us
(43:46):
in the direction that we don'teven follow. It's a way to trust
and what a what a great thoughtto end on. Sahana vavatu,
sahanau, bhunaku, sahavir,yankar, may we cherish
(44:17):
no ill feelings toward anyoneI'll just, I just want to say
before I turn on my computerevery morning, I chant this,
right? I I have a I see mycomputer screen and the zoom as
a way of being together withother people, and, you know,
really connecting throughthrough through the internet,
(44:39):
with people I've never metbefore. And to me, that's,
that's where I've got thattogetherness, that
it's very, it's a very hopefulthing. And I, you know, I've,
I've prayed this prayer for somany years also, and taken so
much meaning, and I feel likeyou know it at this stage in my
(45:02):
life, and it's you know, it hasa special meaning that I meet
people like you and like ourlisteners by coming together
here in podcast land. So thanksfor joining us today, everybody.
That was a nice way for me towrap it up.
And we thank you all so much formaking time to listen to our
(45:23):
dialogs. We'll look forward toseeing you next time. Namaste.
Namaste. You.
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