February 2, 2025 • 47 mins
Join hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose as they explore the timeless wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita from a modern, feminine perspective. In this thought-provoking podcast, "A Woman's Gita," they delve into the ancient text's profound insights on the nature of the self, the relationship between spirit and matter, and the path to inner peace and liberation. Through engaging discussions and personal reflections, they offer a fresh interpretation that resonates with the unique experiences and challenges faced by women in the Western world today.
In this episode, Nischala and Kamala cover:
- The Chariot Metaphor and Philosophical Worldview
- Understanding the Self and Modern Society
- The Role of Superhuman Deities and Krishna Consciousness
- Experiences with Life-Threatening Diseases and Reincarnation
- The Art of Dying and Yoga Practice
- The Eternal Self and Suffering
- The Role of Women in Spirituality and Intuition
- The Interconnectedness of Nature and Spirit
- The Power of Meditation and Introspection
- Empowerment and the Teachings of the Bhagavad Gita
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:02):
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
nistula Joy, Davey and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita Podcast. I'm
Kamala rose and I'm nischalaJoy. Davey, thank you so much
for joining us today on awoman's Gita we are picking up
where we left off from ourdialog on the chariot metaphor.
(01:03):
The Chariot metaphor is apassage of it's taken from the
Katha Upanishad that is used inthe Bhagavad Gita beginning in
chapter two, as a sort of anoverview of the the
philosophical world view thatKrishna is using and teaching
(01:23):
from, right? This is theworldview that speaks of the the
self, right, the ultimate selfthat each one of us is the
indwelling the innermost, asbeing the Lord of the chariot
and the chariot being the bodythat takes us through life.
(01:46):
Right? We move around the worldby the wheels of the chariot,
and we are propelled around bythe the horses that represent
the senses, right, the fivehorses that represent the five
senses carrying on down theroads of our sense experiences,
(02:09):
controlled hopefully by therains, by that represent the
mind, the attention or theManas. These reins are held
skillfully by the highest aspectof the mind, called the buddhi,
that is represented as what isrepresented by the charioteer.
(02:32):
In this case, Krishna is thecharioteer, and he's teaching
Arjuna how to drive his chariot.
So here in chapter two, we'repicking up on the discourse of
how to frame the situation ofthe Battle of krushetra for
Arjuna, the soldier, and how hecan gain control of the sense
(02:54):
experience that he's having thatis causing him tremendous pain,
confusion and angst. As we pickup here in chapter two, Krishna
is teaching about the self, thereal identity. He's told Arjuna,
(03:14):
you're having it's the wayyou're perceiving this present
moment that's the problem. Liftup, understand the truth of the
real self, and things willbecome clear.
Nischala Joy Devi (03:34):
220 the understanding that the self is
birthless, deathless, real andimperishable. How could it
perish when the body dies? 221,if the soul is indestructible,
eternal, unborn and unchanging,how then could it be destroyed?
(03:58):
So we're asking two questionshere that are very, very
important, because in our modernsociety, we don't do this much
introspection. We don't lookinto how who we really are, who
is there? Questioning,constantly looking. Instead, we
(04:21):
try to use the things on theoutside to define us. We we get
an education, and then we callourselves a professor, a doctor,
a nurse, whatever it is that wehave studied, we put on then as
that's who we are. What's beingtold to us here is so
extraordinary, because there'ssomething within us that is
(04:47):
never, never dies. It's neverborn, but it's real, and it is
like Kamala. You were justsaying, This is what drives us.
If. We can tune into it. Theproblem is we're so influenced
by anything on the outside thatsways us one way or another, it
(05:11):
elates us, depresses us,depending on our nature and who
we are. So here we get somewonderful news, but what do we
do with it? How do we work withthis? How do we find it? How do
we know that what he's tellingus is true? And I think it goes
(05:32):
back to that same thing, theonly way we know is to go within
and not be influenced by theoutside, even if it's a half
hour a day, to remind us who wereally are, all this would then
make perfect sense to us.
Kamala Rose (05:53):
It's only through experience that we can know the
self, and I find this a lot, andmaybe many of you will agree
with this, that when you'rereading the Gita or some of the
other beautiful works of Indianphilosophy, we're presented with
this idea of a part of ourselvesthat is eternal. It is beyond
(06:17):
the comings and goings ofeveryday life, something that is
indestructible, eternal, unbornand unchanging, while everything
else around us is destructible,temporary, born and then dying
and changing all of the time.
Right? So we have these twoprinciples that are in
(06:39):
relationship all the time. Beingable to discern the difference
is here what's key. And as Nishais so appropriately reminding us
that this is not an intellectualconcept. We don't just hold
these kind of binaries as as asconcepts we're meant to
(07:00):
experience. We're meant to knowourselves as something other
than the changeable body, thechanging emotions, right? The
body that is aging, the bodythat is eventually will die the
body that's very destructible,right? We're meant to know a
(07:25):
part of ourselves that's beyondthat. And how can we know this?
As you say, through meditation,if it's only 1020, 30 minutes a
day that we are able to remindourselves who we really are,
beyond the comings and goings ofthe world around us.
Nischala Joy Devi (07:48):
I think also, the other thing that he's trying
to say here is that this is whowe are. You may not understand
it. You may not conceive of ityet. And to me, this small part
here is one of the reasons in mymind, anyway that we have
(08:12):
created, or has been created orhas been given to us, however
you want to put it, thesesuperhuman deities were suddenly
given to us and all thedifferent traditions, the one
that parts the sea, the one thatmakes fishes and loaves, the one
that turns wine into water, intowine, all these fantastic things
(08:38):
to Let us know that there issomething special. There is
something in there that you maynot see, but you may be able to
see it in this person, in thispersona of someone who is doing
it. And then what we do, then ifwe worship that person, which
(08:58):
many, many millions and evenbillions of people do eventually
that will then be turned overand come back to us that it's
not something that's external,that is something that's within
us always, and that's why theyuse The expression Krishna
consciousness rather thanKrishna or Christ consciousness,
(09:23):
rather than just the Christ,it's the essence of who they are
that resonates completely withwho we are,
Kamala Rose (09:34):
this eternal self.
The kaupanishad says that thisprimeval one is difficult to
perceive. Yeah, it's wrapped inmystery, hidden in the Cave of
the Heart. Yes, residing withinan impenetrable depth. We regard
this as a god. We regard. Thisas an insight gained by inner
(10:00):
contemplation. This is beyondsorrow. It is beyond joy. It is
beyond everything that weordinarily measure by a part of
ourselves that is deep within.
(10:20):
In verse 22 we're coming to oneof the most famous verses from
the Gita. Yeah, just as onecasts off worn out clothes and
puts on new ones, so also thiseternal self throws away worn
out bodies and takes on newones, right? What a wonderful
(10:45):
image of an eternal nature, aspiritual nature that never
dies, picking up the materialnature of a body, wearing that
for a period of time, alifetime, and then putting it
down, yep, later to pick upanother one. I wonder how often
(11:06):
we question or look at ourselvesthat way, as someone who is
consciousness that is wearingthis body, that this is a
temporary expression, this bodythat I am wearing, you are
wearing. And all people who areembodied today are wearing a
body that will be cast off atthe time of death only to pick
(11:32):
up another one at a later time.
This, of course, is the doctrineof reincarnation, fundamental to
the Bhagavad Gita world view.
You
Nischala Joy Devi (11:45):
know, I have had some very interesting
experiences working with peoplewith life threatening diseases,
because this is something thatwhen you are diagnosed, it's not
the first thing that is thoughtabout what we do is we want to
preserve the body at all costs,and some of those costs are very
(12:09):
high. So what we begin to see isthe the nature and the way our
society has become. It's reallyto save the body at all costs.
Instead of going inward to seewhat's in the body, what moves
the body like we we just heardthe beautiful metaphor of it
(12:32):
driving the chariot. Well, whodrives our chariot? Who drives
us? Who drives our body? Andthere's something inside that
does this, and that's this iswhat they're talking about, to
be able to get to that place, toget to that point, and realize
(12:52):
also when we're there, we're allthe same, we're not different.
What makes us different is thebody. What makes this difference
is the color. You have thiscolor here, I have that color
here. This one has this, thatone has that that's all
physical. Once we get to thisplace, we're all one. We're all
(13:16):
one, and we know what to do. Weknow what to do there. So this
can be very frightening topeople. What I then saw is as
they got closer to this removalof these worn off clothes and
the body, it was now not someplace they want to live anymore,
(13:36):
they start understanding andthey start talking about what's
next, etc. And you know, when wetalk about reincarnation, I have
to bring in one of my greatteachers, and I think many
people, was Elizabeth KublerRoss. She was really a pioneer
in this area. And when she wasasked, do they does she believe
(13:59):
in reincarnation, she steppedback. She was a little, tiny
thing. She stepped back, and shelooked at them, and she said,
No, I don't believe in it. Iknow it to be true. And I think
that once you have had anexperience, whether in deep
meditation, whether in neardeath, whatever it may be, we
(14:23):
realize, because if we reallythought that this was it, and we
watch it age, we watch it getsick, we watch it change, we
would be horrified, as manypeople are. How many people
spend millions and billions ofdollars. I just talked to
someone this morning, and theysaid she doesn't want to get
(14:46):
old. Well, who does, but it'sgoing to happen, so you might as
well find something that doesn'tget old. And that's the spirit.
It's always young. You.
Kamala Rose (15:02):
I think as yoga practitioners, it's it this. I
mean, this is so vital, ofcourse. This is a cornerstone of
yoga philosophy, understandingthe relationship of spirit and
body. These are such wise wordscoming from those who have seen
(15:22):
so many stages, I know beingthere at the time of birth and
at the time of death, like wesee a new body being taken on
and we see a new body being letgo. I think one of the things
(15:42):
I'm thinking about what you werejust we were just saying
nishchala was just about howmuch wisdom has been gained from
the influence of Easternphilosophy into the art of
dying, right, The Art of LettingGo, learning to consciously let
go to prepare for letting go ofthe body. And I think this is as
(16:05):
yoga practitioners, this is oneof the most important things we
can gain, especially if we'redoing physical practice and and
work with the breath. Right? Weknow that it's through the
breath that the Spirit enters,and it's through the breath that
the spirit leaves. And you knowwhen we when we work with yoga
(16:27):
as a system of coming to a peaceand a harmony within the body,
right here, right now, whetherthat's in postures, in
pranayama, in meditation, right,through the application of
ethics, through our yamas andniyamas, right? And in our our
(16:49):
deepening meditation ultimatelyleading towards Samadhi, which
is that state where we are,where the self is in its own
state, right? The self is in itsown nature. We find that in the
Yoga Sutras, sutra one three,that in Samadhi, the self is
(17:09):
finally able to be in its ownnature and its own you know,
almost like returning to thewater in a way in you know,
everything else being foreign tothat eternal nature, right? So
this idea of reincarnation,accepting the idea of
(17:29):
reincarnation, I think, less inthe way of thinking about who I
was in past lives, and moreabout who can, who can I become
and how to let go well at theend of life, one of my favorite
quotes on this is, is the DalaiLama saying that every day I
(17:53):
prepare for death. And I thinkthis is a very life affirming
way to live, to appreciate everyday and know that everything is
not going to last forever as wecontinue this self, just just,
(18:13):
just to enunciate the point.
Krishna says that this self,weapons cannot cut it, fire
cannot burn it, water cannot wetit and wind cannot dry it cannot
be cut, burnt, wetted or driedup. Thus, right through the
process of elimination, aclassic reasoning, thus, it is
eternal. It's all pervading.
(18:35):
It's firm, it's immovable, andit is ancient.
Nischala Joy Devi (18:41):
So what he's doing, he's, he's, he's taking
us through each of the elementsI this. This is the part where I
really see some compassioncoming out of Krishna. He
realizes, and my guess is, Iwasn't there. But my guess is,
when he proclaimed this in 222Arjun was kind of stunned, and
(19:07):
had that expression on his faceas many as of us get. And we
talk about wearing our thoughtson our face, and that's why he
then comes in and he talks abouteach element. He's talking about
fire, he's talking about water,he's talking about wind. He's
saying none of this affects itbecause it is not physical. It
(19:33):
is not part of the materialworld. The body is made up of
the material world, and the bodyreturns to the material world,
whether it is buried, whether itis burnt, whether it is put up
on a roof like the Zoroastriansand the birds come and eat it.
Whatever it is, it is not of theSpirit. And I think this is if,
(19:58):
if somehow. We could be taughthand in hand, right hand and
left hand. One side is spirit,one side is nature, and we could
walk through life understandingthat each one has their place in
our lives, and they workintertwined together, that we
(20:20):
listen to what the Spirit has tosay to us when we can get in
contact with it. And that's whyI go back to again, to the
people who are very ill they getand I use the expression, it's
not a physical but I see theyget very thin. And what I mean
by that is not the physical bodygets thin, but they're the veil
(20:43):
between the worlds gets verythin, and they start to be able
to see, wait a second, that'snot me. I had a one experience.
This was very interesting. Itwas a woman, she was getting
close to death, and herreligion, again, taught her that
basically, when you die, that'sit. You're done. End of
(21:06):
everything finished, nothingelse. You don't go on, etc. She
was scared to death, to die,because she thought there was
nothing else. So she came and Iwas working with her, and I saw
the fear in her. I could, Icould feel it palpable. So I
took her through a deeprelaxation with some imagery,
(21:27):
and she got very, very still.
And with a person like that, youhave to worry a little bit, are
they still here? And she wasstill breathing, I was happy.
And so I just went over and Isat with her. I didn't touch
her, but I sat right beside her.
And eventually she came back.
And when she came back, she cameback laughing, hysterically,
(21:48):
laughing. Now this was a veryserious woman. She came in very
serious. Barely said hello, andjust said, let's get down to it.
She was laughing so hard thather whole body was shaky, and
finally, and I just startedlaughing, because it's
contagious. And I was laughing.
And finally, I looked at her, Isaid, What are we laughing
(22:09):
about? And she pointed to thebody, and she said, This poor,
decrepit body. I thought it wasme, and now I see because I was
sitting up on the ceiling,looking down on this body, and I
see this is not me. She did die,but she died with a smile on her
(22:35):
face, knowing who she was. Sothis was a gift, not just for
her, but for me too, because westart to see and understand and
know that we are so much morethan the physical body,
Kamala Rose (22:54):
and this is the knowledge that liberates us.
This is a special kind ofknowledge, and again, not not
just a concept, not just a youknow, philosophical binaries,
but this is a real mysticalexperience that when, when you
have it and when you know this,it changes everything. What a
(23:17):
great story to illustrate thatthat it's almost as though what
you were so worried about justis is gone, is removed. That's
why she was laughing. Yeah,yeah. Often this knowledge is
represented by a flame, right?
This the symbol of of insight,of jnana, is that eternal flame
(23:38):
of knowledge that illuminatesthe darkness. The darkness is a
way of saying the suffering thatcomes from thinking that you're
the body that's right, and thatyou will at some point end, and
that there should be fear inthis way, right? So this is
liberatory knowledge. It has thequality of moksha, of being able
(24:03):
to release us from suffering.
And I think it's worthmentioning that this is really
the issue that we're dealingwith. Here is an answer to the
suffering of Arjuna, state ofmind. I am not sure what I
should do. I'm not sure what'sreal, the answer to suffering or
(24:29):
this, this, this chapter iscalled Sankhya yoga, and this is
really where the first, youknow, one of the first times
it's formally acknowledged thatall is suffering, yeah, right,
everything. You're just happy,you're sad, you're achieving,
you're full of pride, you'redesolate, you're in despair,
(24:52):
you're all of the kinds ofthings that we experience in our
emotions. All of this is.
Suffering. It's because we graspit. We want to hold on to it. We
want it to last. We want to bebeautiful, like when we were
young for our whole lives andare disappointed when we grow
older. All of these are theseare the sufferings that we deal
(25:16):
with every single day, and sodoes every single human being in
the world deal with a feeling ofdiscontent with the present
moment? Therefore this knowledgehas the ability to free us from
that suffering by changingperspective, by giving us
another way to look at it, whichis like your friend from above,
(25:38):
yep. What's to worry about? WhoI really am, as will always be,
yeah, therefore you shall notgrieve, yeah.
Nischala Joy Devi (25:51):
And there, the self is unknowable by the
senses. This 225, I think thisis really important because, and
I'm going to get back to aconcept that we talked about a
long time ago when we started,uh, talking about this. We're
talking about the ability tostudy and understand from an
(26:13):
intellectual point, as opposedto what he's now describing as
very mystical. This is verymystical. What we're talking
about now. And the idea ofmysticism is to have a direct
knowledge that's really the theoverall understanding of what a
mystic is. A mystic is someonethat doesn't need to go
(26:35):
somewhere else for knowledge,but takes it themselves. And how
I read this particular aspect.
This is what he's saying. Youcannot learn this by the senses.
It's unthinkable by the mind,and is not subject to any kind
of change. Therefore, do notgrieve. So I think that what
(26:56):
happens is people strive tounderstand it with the mind, and
that's why it gets sobastardized. It gets so
convoluted because we're tryingto explain something that's
unexplainable, we can'texperience it with the senses.
(27:18):
If it can't be cut, burnt,wedded or dried, then that's all
we know. We're very limited inwhat we understand. And when we
see something mystical, whensomething mystical happens to
us, we either try to explain itaway, repress it because it's
(27:39):
too frightening. Instead, if weembrace it and say, Wow, another
part of myself is coming out. Iknew that phone was going to
ring before it rang. How wasthat? Where is that connection
that was not on the phone line,but was in someplace else? This,
this, to me is what he's tryingto say, go past what you know is
(28:01):
the physical. Go beyond that,and go to that place that is
beyond the senses, where theknowing comes, the real knowing,
the understanding of the self.
And to me, the most beautifulthing about all this is when we
(28:22):
understand it about ourselves.
We see it in everybody else. Sowe know that we are not the only
ones, but everyone is that. AndI just wanted to get back to
something you said also this,this idea of suffering, and I
think the Buddha used this asone of his main Noble Truths.
(28:43):
And how it's interpreted,though, is a little different.
So a lot of people say it's astatement, all life is
suffering, or it's aproclamation that means all life
is suffering. I think it was anobservation, that's how I see
it, that he came out of thisenlightened state that he was
(29:04):
in, and he came out enough tolook around and he said, Oh my
goodness, look at this. All lifeis suffering, and there's only
one way to get out of it, andthat's to know who you are,
because once you know you are,then there's no more suffering.
So that's how I I see. This isvery mystical. It's a very
(29:29):
mystical aspect to it that we'renow doing. Therefore do not
grieve because it's there. Yeah,
Kamala Rose (29:41):
I think mystical is the only way to really describe
what we're talking about here adirect experience. It transcends
ordinary consciousness. It's notsomething that as you've said,
as you said, it's we're it's notfrom this ordinary state of mind
that we're talking here rightnow. It's when we transcend
this. State of mind. And youknow, the Buddha's insights come
(30:07):
from the Indian traditions. Andyou know the philosophical
background of yoga really iscoming from answering this
question of dukkha. Why are whydo we suffer? How can we free
ourselves from this suffering solong before the Buddha, the the
(30:28):
yogis, the the pre yogis, therenunciates of the Upanishads
and the earliest traditionscoming from the Vedas,
understood this, this fact ofdukkha, of suffering, and all
that we do to get out of dukkha,all of the grasping and striving
(30:52):
to try to make ourselves happyagain with
Nischala Joy Devi (30:55):
the sukkah, the super with suit, yeah, with
sukkah. So we make our we bringin things that try to make us
happy, but it's a little likekids at Christmas. They get all
these presents and they rip themopen. They say, next, next,
next. What's next? What's nextis you have to go in and do the
work. That's the only way youcan do it.
Kamala Rose (31:17):
Absolutely, that's it. And and what you were saying
beyond the senses. I have a fewverses from the Cana Upanishad,
that which is the hearing beyondhearing, the thinking beyond
thinking, the speech behindspeech, the sight behind beyond
(31:41):
behind site. It is also thebreathing behind breathing freed
completely from these the wisebecome immortal when they depart
from this world, another kind ofinsight where we understand the
world to be phenomena that weare, the consciousness is
(32:05):
experiencing, and that self, theAtman, as what is often called
noumenon, or the source, theexperiencer, right? The only way
this atman can be known, theself can be known is through
direct experience, anything elseis phenomena,
Unknown (32:24):
yep, right? Or mental, mental, the mental, yeah,
Kamala Rose (32:29):
right. But what is, what is the thinking that is
behind beyond thinking, right?
What is the source of all thatwe know and experience as the
inner space of mind, emotionsand feelings and personality and
all of the things that weidentify ourselves as, what is
the source and what is be beyondthat?
Nischala Joy Devi (32:54):
And that's what we're trying to do.
However, the outside world is sostrong and it's taking us in the
opposite direction. It's tellingus that we can be beautiful
until we're 95 it's telling us,but it's telling us that we at
95 we should look like we're 25No, you should have a beauty at
(33:16):
95 that's a 95 beauty becausethe spirit is still coming
through it. The Spirit, what youlook at when you look at
someone's body is you are seeingspirit in matter, and we forget
that. So just going back andlooking at how you spend your
(33:37):
day, what do you spend it on,and how much time is spent on
the spirit compared to to thematerial most of us it's 99.9%
maybe we say a prayer before amural. Maybe we say a prayer
before we go to bed. Maybe wesay thank you to someone. But
(34:00):
most of us don't do that. Justthink what it would be the
opposite if we spent 99.9% onspirit and point 1%
Kamala Rose (34:14):
on the material. I think as women, we these are
some issues that you know thatyoga certainly introduces to us,
and it's so important to pauseand to think about that very
much, how much time we spend onour outer form and what's
expected of us in our outerform, right? As women, we have a
(34:39):
long, length, long, lengthy listof of roles that we are supposed
to fit into. Right, certainly,being tall and thin is on the
top of most women's subconsciouslist. Right, being thin.
(34:59):
Physically attractive. And, youknow, if we're not able to
perceive ourselves in that way,we often can feel like a
failure, right? I think, I thinkthese, I think this idea of the
body and identifying with thebody really, I think women wear
it in a certain way, and theliberatory insight of yoga can
(35:24):
be exactly the medicine that weneed.
Nischala Joy Devi (35:29):
Yeah, I think we have a incredible need to
have this physicality, becauseit seemed to have gotten
polarized at one point, and themen took on the thinking aspect.
So they're supposed to be theones that think, and they're the
(35:50):
ones that make all thesewonderful inventions, when
actually we look at them, and isa lot of it was from women, but
not from an intellectual wayfrom the intuitive, from coming
from that place within. So Ithink that we really missed an
opportunity as women to use ourintuition, to use our ability to
(36:18):
know things and to trace itback, where did it come from?
And go back to our hearts andrealize that it came from that
nameless, formless place, and wehave been given energy from
that. So I think that whatpeople feel sometimes is they
(36:40):
have to push the spirit, thematerial away. In order to get
the spirit, people think theyhave to go into a monastery or
convent or something like that,when in actuality, is best used
in everyday life. Bringing thatspirit in bringing in the form
of love, you can bring it in anyway you want, but I think the
(37:02):
most common is the form of love,caring, compassion, and you
brought up the Dalai Lama,kindness. Wouldn't it be nice to
just have that? To me, that'sone of the highest spiritual
practices we can do, but wedon't, because we're so fixated
when that which changes insteadof that which never changes. So
(37:27):
if this has been going on for1000s of years that they've been
talking about this in alltraditions, they took it out of
some of the traditions becausepeople got scared about
reincarnation. They took it outalso because they felt they
couldn't control people, becausethey thought they had another
chance at it next lifetime. Solet's just take it out. This is
(37:50):
what people did, and no oneprotested, because no one had
the experience of knowing, or ifit was very few, they didn't.
Instead, let's all do this. Wedon't need a formal process.
Just sit quietly, go into yourheart and feel that self that's
(38:15):
the same as everybody else's,that ray of sun that's in
everybody you
Kamala Rose (38:20):
and this is how the transcendent experience really
for most of us, right when wehave that experience of the Self
and are able to experienceourselves simply as being, as
essence, as Sat Chit Ananda,when we're able to experience
(38:45):
this, it's not just an isolated,personal experience. It, by
nature, expands. And we see thateverything is made of the same
thing, the essence in the air,the fire, the water and the
earth, the nature andintelligence of the animals that
we live with, of the trees andthe plants, we see an
(39:08):
interconnected system of life,right, of nature and spirit
interacting together. And I, Ithink for women, this is
something that we do knowintuitively. And we've we've
forgotten. We've forgotten. Andyou know, they say that you know
(39:29):
the, you know, some of thethings that we some of the
mindsets that we experiencetoday are, you know, are so much
a result of what patriarchy hasdone to us, right? It's told us
that we are not able to knowwithout the translation of men,
(39:51):
right? We are not able to dothis directly, only through a
priest or through a husband oror a. By Sam Mayon, yes, some
men, some way of men explainingto us and making it possible for
us. But we also know intuitivelythat women's spiritual
(40:13):
experience is very natural. Andin fact, before patriarchy, it
was our domain, right, the ritesand rituals and often the
spiritual leaders of villageswould be the women, because we
do walk into the mystic veryeasily. Right? We're able to
(40:34):
understand the comings andgoings and changings of nature
on
Nischala Joy Devi (40:41):
a very intuitive level, because of our
moon cycles and because ofchildbirth, right? You know,
bringing life into the world andwatching it leave, we're we're
often the ones who are presentfor these comings and goings,
especially if they're the onesgiving birth. You're definitely
there. Well, you know, that'sthe other thing, though, because
(41:03):
not only have they taken awaythe Scripture and the the idea
of that you're speaking of, butthey actually took our bodies
away from us too, and told us,after millions of years of
giving birth that we don't knowhow to do that anymore, so we
need to go into a hospital. Weneed to make it a medical
(41:24):
experience instead of aspiritual experience. Now,
rightly, there's some peoplethat need to do that, that have
a very difficult situation ormedical emergency or whatever,
but there's also a lot of womenthat can just give birth and
that's been taken away from usin the West, we need to get this
(41:50):
back. We need to go within andget the power that can't be
taken away from us. We have tolive with that power leading us.
We're walking with that power,because it's going to continue.
There's going to be continuoustrying to take it away. And I
(42:14):
don't think we want to fight. Idon't know. Maybe that's what
this is about. To me, again, I'mnot a fighter, so this is not
something that I would do, butquietly, without making a fuss,
bring that out from your heart.
Bring that out from yourintuition. Start living your
life that way, one at a time,not following the crowd,
(42:39):
listening to what your heart hasto say, and see if your life
changes. See if the BhagavadGita makes sense when you do
things like that. That's what Iwould say. Try it, because it's
going to keep getting takenaway. You know, they say the
best chefs in the world are men.
(42:59):
No, the best chefs in the worldare women, but there's no
acknowledgement of it, becausethey're cooking for their
families. They're not in a big,famous restaurant. All these
things that we've been told thatmen are better. It's not that
they're better. They just dothings in different ways than we
(43:21):
do. So all that is in here. Youknow, when I read this, I also
realize that a lot of thereligions I'm talking about,
definite religions now, notspirituality, discount women
completely. They can't go nearthe altar. They can't do certain
(43:43):
prayers. They can't do thingsthat are open to men. Why? What
is it who's controlling this?
It's not the ultimate spirit.
It's the minds of the smallminded people that are doing
this. So this is what we have toreally do. And I so I think
(44:04):
spirituality and getting this isnot just for realization, which
is main purpose, but also forliving a complete and full life
with the body, with the spiritand the nature, walking together
Kamala Rose (44:24):
wise words to wrap up on. We're certainly in a time
where we as women need to ownour empowerment, and there the
teachings of the Bhagavad Gitacan be so powerful for us at
these at these times of changeand challenge. I think one of
(44:48):
the big takeaways for me is thatthe self existing in all beings
establishes a universal humanvalue that is. Beyond gender,
beyond class, beyond station inlife, beyond east, beyond West.
Yes, all have the same value andall have the same potential to
(45:14):
realize this self within andthat's where our power comes
from. Is from that directrealization. And my friends as
women, as yoga, knees wereNaturals. So please join me in
nishchala in the space ofmeditation throughout your week,
(45:34):
where we ask, who is breathing,who is hearing, who is
experiencing this presentmoment,
Nischala Joy Devi (45:44):
who's offended by that comment? That's
a big one. Someone sayssomething and you get upset. Who
is it that's getting upset?
Think about that. Yeah, join usin meditation, because it's a
river. It all flows.
Kamala Rose (46:06):
Thank you so much for being with us for our
women's Gita podcast. Pleasesubscribe. Turn on your friends.
We'd love to hear from you, anyquestions. Anything you'd like
for us to discuss and cover?
Namaste.
Unknown (46:21):
Namaste. Have a wonderful month, week, life,
perfect. Thank you for joiningus for a women's Gita with
nystula Joy Devi and Kamalarose. We would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a woman's Gita
(46:41):
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
Namaste. You.
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
nistula Joy, Davey and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Kamala Rose (00:42):
Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita Podcast. I'm
Kamala rose and I'm nischalaJoy. Davey, thank you so much
for joining us today on awoman's Gita we are picking up
where we left off from ourdialog on the chariot metaphor.
(01:03):
The Chariot metaphor is apassage of it's taken from the
Katha Upanishad that is used inthe Bhagavad Gita beginning in
chapter two, as a sort of anoverview of the the
philosophical world view thatKrishna is using and teaching
(01:23):
from, right? This is theworldview that speaks of the the
self, right, the ultimate selfthat each one of us is the
indwelling the innermost, asbeing the Lord of the chariot
and the chariot being the bodythat takes us through life.
(01:46):
Right? We move around the worldby the wheels of the chariot,
and we are propelled around bythe the horses that represent
the senses, right, the fivehorses that represent the five
senses carrying on down theroads of our sense experiences,
(02:09):
controlled hopefully by therains, by that represent the
mind, the attention or theManas. These reins are held
skillfully by the highest aspectof the mind, called the buddhi,
that is represented as what isrepresented by the charioteer.
(02:32):
In this case, Krishna is thecharioteer, and he's teaching
Arjuna how to drive his chariot.
So here in chapter two, we'repicking up on the discourse of
how to frame the situation ofthe Battle of krushetra for
Arjuna, the soldier, and how hecan gain control of the sense
(02:54):
experience that he's having thatis causing him tremendous pain,
confusion and angst. As we pickup here in chapter two, Krishna
is teaching about the self, thereal identity. He's told Arjuna,
(03:14):
you're having it's the wayyou're perceiving this present
moment that's the problem. Liftup, understand the truth of the
real self, and things willbecome clear.
Nischala Joy Devi (03:34):
220 the understanding that the self is
birthless, deathless, real andimperishable. How could it
perish when the body dies? 221,if the soul is indestructible,
eternal, unborn and unchanging,how then could it be destroyed?
(03:58):
So we're asking two questionshere that are very, very
important, because in our modernsociety, we don't do this much
introspection. We don't lookinto how who we really are, who
is there? Questioning,constantly looking. Instead, we
(04:21):
try to use the things on theoutside to define us. We we get
an education, and then we callourselves a professor, a doctor,
a nurse, whatever it is that wehave studied, we put on then as
that's who we are. What's beingtold to us here is so
extraordinary, because there'ssomething within us that is
(04:47):
never, never dies. It's neverborn, but it's real, and it is
like Kamala. You were justsaying, This is what drives us.
If. We can tune into it. Theproblem is we're so influenced
by anything on the outside thatsways us one way or another, it
(05:11):
elates us, depresses us,depending on our nature and who
we are. So here we get somewonderful news, but what do we
do with it? How do we work withthis? How do we find it? How do
we know that what he's tellingus is true? And I think it goes
(05:32):
back to that same thing, theonly way we know is to go within
and not be influenced by theoutside, even if it's a half
hour a day, to remind us who wereally are, all this would then
make perfect sense to us.
Kamala Rose (05:53):
It's only through experience that we can know the
self, and I find this a lot, andmaybe many of you will agree
with this, that when you'rereading the Gita or some of the
other beautiful works of Indianphilosophy, we're presented with
this idea of a part of ourselvesthat is eternal. It is beyond
(06:17):
the comings and goings ofeveryday life, something that is
indestructible, eternal, unbornand unchanging, while everything
else around us is destructible,temporary, born and then dying
and changing all of the time.
Right? So we have these twoprinciples that are in
(06:39):
relationship all the time. Beingable to discern the difference
is here what's key. And as Nishais so appropriately reminding us
that this is not an intellectualconcept. We don't just hold
these kind of binaries as as asconcepts we're meant to
(07:00):
experience. We're meant to knowourselves as something other
than the changeable body, thechanging emotions, right? The
body that is aging, the bodythat is eventually will die the
body that's very destructible,right? We're meant to know a
(07:25):
part of ourselves that's beyondthat. And how can we know this?
As you say, through meditation,if it's only 1020, 30 minutes a
day that we are able to remindourselves who we really are,
beyond the comings and goings ofthe world around us.
Nischala Joy Devi (07:48):
I think also, the other thing that he's trying
to say here is that this is whowe are. You may not understand
it. You may not conceive of ityet. And to me, this small part
here is one of the reasons in mymind, anyway that we have
(08:12):
created, or has been created orhas been given to us, however
you want to put it, thesesuperhuman deities were suddenly
given to us and all thedifferent traditions, the one
that parts the sea, the one thatmakes fishes and loaves, the one
that turns wine into water, intowine, all these fantastic things
(08:38):
to Let us know that there issomething special. There is
something in there that you maynot see, but you may be able to
see it in this person, in thispersona of someone who is doing
it. And then what we do, then ifwe worship that person, which
(08:58):
many, many millions and evenbillions of people do eventually
that will then be turned overand come back to us that it's
not something that's external,that is something that's within
us always, and that's why theyuse The expression Krishna
consciousness rather thanKrishna or Christ consciousness,
(09:23):
rather than just the Christ,it's the essence of who they are
that resonates completely withwho we are,
Kamala Rose (09:34):
this eternal self.
The kaupanishad says that thisprimeval one is difficult to
perceive. Yeah, it's wrapped inmystery, hidden in the Cave of
the Heart. Yes, residing withinan impenetrable depth. We regard
this as a god. We regard. Thisas an insight gained by inner
(10:00):
contemplation. This is beyondsorrow. It is beyond joy. It is
beyond everything that weordinarily measure by a part of
ourselves that is deep within.
(10:20):
In verse 22 we're coming to oneof the most famous verses from
the Gita. Yeah, just as onecasts off worn out clothes and
puts on new ones, so also thiseternal self throws away worn
out bodies and takes on newones, right? What a wonderful
(10:45):
image of an eternal nature, aspiritual nature that never
dies, picking up the materialnature of a body, wearing that
for a period of time, alifetime, and then putting it
down, yep, later to pick upanother one. I wonder how often
(11:06):
we question or look at ourselvesthat way, as someone who is
consciousness that is wearingthis body, that this is a
temporary expression, this bodythat I am wearing, you are
wearing. And all people who areembodied today are wearing a
body that will be cast off atthe time of death only to pick
(11:32):
up another one at a later time.
This, of course, is the doctrineof reincarnation, fundamental to
the Bhagavad Gita world view.
You
Nischala Joy Devi (11:45):
know, I have had some very interesting
experiences working with peoplewith life threatening diseases,
because this is something thatwhen you are diagnosed, it's not
the first thing that is thoughtabout what we do is we want to
preserve the body at all costs,and some of those costs are very
(12:09):
high. So what we begin to see isthe the nature and the way our
society has become. It's reallyto save the body at all costs.
Instead of going inward to seewhat's in the body, what moves
the body like we we just heardthe beautiful metaphor of it
(12:32):
driving the chariot. Well, whodrives our chariot? Who drives
us? Who drives our body? Andthere's something inside that
does this, and that's this iswhat they're talking about, to
be able to get to that place, toget to that point, and realize
(12:52):
also when we're there, we're allthe same, we're not different.
What makes us different is thebody. What makes this difference
is the color. You have thiscolor here, I have that color
here. This one has this, thatone has that that's all
physical. Once we get to thisplace, we're all one. We're all
(13:16):
one, and we know what to do. Weknow what to do there. So this
can be very frightening topeople. What I then saw is as
they got closer to this removalof these worn off clothes and
the body, it was now not someplace they want to live anymore,
(13:36):
they start understanding andthey start talking about what's
next, etc. And you know, when wetalk about reincarnation, I have
to bring in one of my greatteachers, and I think many
people, was Elizabeth KublerRoss. She was really a pioneer
in this area. And when she wasasked, do they does she believe
(13:59):
in reincarnation, she steppedback. She was a little, tiny
thing. She stepped back, and shelooked at them, and she said,
No, I don't believe in it. Iknow it to be true. And I think
that once you have had anexperience, whether in deep
meditation, whether in neardeath, whatever it may be, we
(14:23):
realize, because if we reallythought that this was it, and we
watch it age, we watch it getsick, we watch it change, we
would be horrified, as manypeople are. How many people
spend millions and billions ofdollars. I just talked to
someone this morning, and theysaid she doesn't want to get
(14:46):
old. Well, who does, but it'sgoing to happen, so you might as
well find something that doesn'tget old. And that's the spirit.
It's always young. You.
Kamala Rose (15:02):
I think as yoga practitioners, it's it this. I
mean, this is so vital, ofcourse. This is a cornerstone of
yoga philosophy, understandingthe relationship of spirit and
body. These are such wise wordscoming from those who have seen
(15:22):
so many stages, I know beingthere at the time of birth and
at the time of death, like wesee a new body being taken on
and we see a new body being letgo. I think one of the things
(15:42):
I'm thinking about what you werejust we were just saying
nishchala was just about howmuch wisdom has been gained from
the influence of Easternphilosophy into the art of
dying, right, The Art of LettingGo, learning to consciously let
go to prepare for letting go ofthe body. And I think this is as
(16:05):
yoga practitioners, this is oneof the most important things we
can gain, especially if we'redoing physical practice and and
work with the breath. Right? Weknow that it's through the
breath that the Spirit enters,and it's through the breath that
the spirit leaves. And you knowwhen we when we work with yoga
(16:27):
as a system of coming to a peaceand a harmony within the body,
right here, right now, whetherthat's in postures, in
pranayama, in meditation, right,through the application of
ethics, through our yamas andniyamas, right? And in our our
(16:49):
deepening meditation ultimatelyleading towards Samadhi, which
is that state where we are,where the self is in its own
state, right? The self is in itsown nature. We find that in the
Yoga Sutras, sutra one three,that in Samadhi, the self is
(17:09):
finally able to be in its ownnature and its own you know,
almost like returning to thewater in a way in you know,
everything else being foreign tothat eternal nature, right? So
this idea of reincarnation,accepting the idea of
(17:29):
reincarnation, I think, less inthe way of thinking about who I
was in past lives, and moreabout who can, who can I become
and how to let go well at theend of life, one of my favorite
quotes on this is, is the DalaiLama saying that every day I
(17:53):
prepare for death. And I thinkthis is a very life affirming
way to live, to appreciate everyday and know that everything is
not going to last forever as wecontinue this self, just just,
(18:13):
just to enunciate the point.
Krishna says that this self,weapons cannot cut it, fire
cannot burn it, water cannot wetit and wind cannot dry it cannot
be cut, burnt, wetted or driedup. Thus, right through the
process of elimination, aclassic reasoning, thus, it is
eternal. It's all pervading.
(18:35):
It's firm, it's immovable, andit is ancient.
Nischala Joy Devi (18:41):
So what he's doing, he's, he's, he's taking
us through each of the elementsI this. This is the part where I
really see some compassioncoming out of Krishna. He
realizes, and my guess is, Iwasn't there. But my guess is,
when he proclaimed this in 222Arjun was kind of stunned, and
(19:07):
had that expression on his faceas many as of us get. And we
talk about wearing our thoughtson our face, and that's why he
then comes in and he talks abouteach element. He's talking about
fire, he's talking about water,he's talking about wind. He's
saying none of this affects itbecause it is not physical. It
(19:33):
is not part of the materialworld. The body is made up of
the material world, and the bodyreturns to the material world,
whether it is buried, whether itis burnt, whether it is put up
on a roof like the Zoroastriansand the birds come and eat it.
Whatever it is, it is not of theSpirit. And I think this is if,
(19:58):
if somehow. We could be taughthand in hand, right hand and
left hand. One side is spirit,one side is nature, and we could
walk through life understandingthat each one has their place in
our lives, and they workintertwined together, that we
(20:20):
listen to what the Spirit has tosay to us when we can get in
contact with it. And that's whyI go back to again, to the
people who are very ill they getand I use the expression, it's
not a physical but I see theyget very thin. And what I mean
by that is not the physical bodygets thin, but they're the veil
(20:43):
between the worlds gets verythin, and they start to be able
to see, wait a second, that'snot me. I had a one experience.
This was very interesting. Itwas a woman, she was getting
close to death, and herreligion, again, taught her that
basically, when you die, that'sit. You're done. End of
(21:06):
everything finished, nothingelse. You don't go on, etc. She
was scared to death, to die,because she thought there was
nothing else. So she came and Iwas working with her, and I saw
the fear in her. I could, Icould feel it palpable. So I
took her through a deeprelaxation with some imagery,
(21:27):
and she got very, very still.
And with a person like that, youhave to worry a little bit, are
they still here? And she wasstill breathing, I was happy.
And so I just went over and Isat with her. I didn't touch
her, but I sat right beside her.
And eventually she came back.
And when she came back, she cameback laughing, hysterically,
(21:48):
laughing. Now this was a veryserious woman. She came in very
serious. Barely said hello, andjust said, let's get down to it.
She was laughing so hard thather whole body was shaky, and
finally, and I just startedlaughing, because it's
contagious. And I was laughing.
And finally, I looked at her, Isaid, What are we laughing
(22:09):
about? And she pointed to thebody, and she said, This poor,
decrepit body. I thought it wasme, and now I see because I was
sitting up on the ceiling,looking down on this body, and I
see this is not me. She did die,but she died with a smile on her
(22:35):
face, knowing who she was. Sothis was a gift, not just for
her, but for me too, because westart to see and understand and
know that we are so much morethan the physical body,
Kamala Rose (22:54):
and this is the knowledge that liberates us.
This is a special kind ofknowledge, and again, not not
just a concept, not just a youknow, philosophical binaries,
but this is a real mysticalexperience that when, when you
have it and when you know this,it changes everything. What a
(23:17):
great story to illustrate thatthat it's almost as though what
you were so worried about justis is gone, is removed. That's
why she was laughing. Yeah,yeah. Often this knowledge is
represented by a flame, right?
This the symbol of of insight,of jnana, is that eternal flame
(23:38):
of knowledge that illuminatesthe darkness. The darkness is a
way of saying the suffering thatcomes from thinking that you're
the body that's right, and thatyou will at some point end, and
that there should be fear inthis way, right? So this is
liberatory knowledge. It has thequality of moksha, of being able
(24:03):
to release us from suffering.
And I think it's worthmentioning that this is really
the issue that we're dealingwith. Here is an answer to the
suffering of Arjuna, state ofmind. I am not sure what I
should do. I'm not sure what'sreal, the answer to suffering or
(24:29):
this, this, this chapter iscalled Sankhya yoga, and this is
really where the first, youknow, one of the first times
it's formally acknowledged thatall is suffering, yeah, right,
everything. You're just happy,you're sad, you're achieving,
you're full of pride, you'redesolate, you're in despair,
(24:52):
you're all of the kinds ofthings that we experience in our
emotions. All of this is.
Suffering. It's because we graspit. We want to hold on to it. We
want it to last. We want to bebeautiful, like when we were
young for our whole lives andare disappointed when we grow
older. All of these are theseare the sufferings that we deal
(25:16):
with every single day, and sodoes every single human being in
the world deal with a feeling ofdiscontent with the present
moment? Therefore this knowledgehas the ability to free us from
that suffering by changingperspective, by giving us
another way to look at it, whichis like your friend from above,
(25:38):
yep. What's to worry about? WhoI really am, as will always be,
yeah, therefore you shall notgrieve, yeah.
Nischala Joy Devi (25:51):
And there, the self is unknowable by the
senses. This 225, I think thisis really important because, and
I'm going to get back to aconcept that we talked about a
long time ago when we started,uh, talking about this. We're
talking about the ability tostudy and understand from an
(26:13):
intellectual point, as opposedto what he's now describing as
very mystical. This is verymystical. What we're talking
about now. And the idea ofmysticism is to have a direct
knowledge that's really the theoverall understanding of what a
mystic is. A mystic is someonethat doesn't need to go
(26:35):
somewhere else for knowledge,but takes it themselves. And how
I read this particular aspect.
This is what he's saying. Youcannot learn this by the senses.
It's unthinkable by the mind,and is not subject to any kind
of change. Therefore, do notgrieve. So I think that what
(26:56):
happens is people strive tounderstand it with the mind, and
that's why it gets sobastardized. It gets so
convoluted because we're tryingto explain something that's
unexplainable, we can'texperience it with the senses.
(27:18):
If it can't be cut, burnt,wedded or dried, then that's all
we know. We're very limited inwhat we understand. And when we
see something mystical, whensomething mystical happens to
us, we either try to explain itaway, repress it because it's
(27:39):
too frightening. Instead, if weembrace it and say, Wow, another
part of myself is coming out. Iknew that phone was going to
ring before it rang. How wasthat? Where is that connection
that was not on the phone line,but was in someplace else? This,
this, to me is what he's tryingto say, go past what you know is
(28:01):
the physical. Go beyond that,and go to that place that is
beyond the senses, where theknowing comes, the real knowing,
the understanding of the self.
And to me, the most beautifulthing about all this is when we
(28:22):
understand it about ourselves.
We see it in everybody else. Sowe know that we are not the only
ones, but everyone is that. AndI just wanted to get back to
something you said also this,this idea of suffering, and I
think the Buddha used this asone of his main Noble Truths.
(28:43):
And how it's interpreted,though, is a little different.
So a lot of people say it's astatement, all life is
suffering, or it's aproclamation that means all life
is suffering. I think it was anobservation, that's how I see
it, that he came out of thisenlightened state that he was
(29:04):
in, and he came out enough tolook around and he said, Oh my
goodness, look at this. All lifeis suffering, and there's only
one way to get out of it, andthat's to know who you are,
because once you know you are,then there's no more suffering.
So that's how I I see. This isvery mystical. It's a very
(29:29):
mystical aspect to it that we'renow doing. Therefore do not
grieve because it's there. Yeah,
Kamala Rose (29:41):
I think mystical is the only way to really describe
what we're talking about here adirect experience. It transcends
ordinary consciousness. It's notsomething that as you've said,
as you said, it's we're it's notfrom this ordinary state of mind
that we're talking here rightnow. It's when we transcend
this. State of mind. And youknow, the Buddha's insights come
(30:07):
from the Indian traditions. Andyou know the philosophical
background of yoga really iscoming from answering this
question of dukkha. Why are whydo we suffer? How can we free
ourselves from this suffering solong before the Buddha, the the
(30:28):
yogis, the the pre yogis, therenunciates of the Upanishads
and the earliest traditionscoming from the Vedas,
understood this, this fact ofdukkha, of suffering, and all
that we do to get out of dukkha,all of the grasping and striving
(30:52):
to try to make ourselves happyagain with
Nischala Joy Devi (30:55):
the sukkah, the super with suit, yeah, with
sukkah. So we make our we bringin things that try to make us
happy, but it's a little likekids at Christmas. They get all
these presents and they rip themopen. They say, next, next,
next. What's next? What's nextis you have to go in and do the
work. That's the only way youcan do it.
Kamala Rose (31:17):
Absolutely, that's it. And and what you were saying
beyond the senses. I have a fewverses from the Cana Upanishad,
that which is the hearing beyondhearing, the thinking beyond
thinking, the speech behindspeech, the sight behind beyond
(31:41):
behind site. It is also thebreathing behind breathing freed
completely from these the wisebecome immortal when they depart
from this world, another kind ofinsight where we understand the
world to be phenomena that weare, the consciousness is
(32:05):
experiencing, and that self, theAtman, as what is often called
noumenon, or the source, theexperiencer, right? The only way
this atman can be known, theself can be known is through
direct experience, anything elseis phenomena,
Unknown (32:24):
yep, right? Or mental, mental, the mental, yeah,
Kamala Rose (32:29):
right. But what is, what is the thinking that is
behind beyond thinking, right?
What is the source of all thatwe know and experience as the
inner space of mind, emotionsand feelings and personality and
all of the things that weidentify ourselves as, what is
the source and what is be beyondthat?
Nischala Joy Devi (32:54):
And that's what we're trying to do.
However, the outside world is sostrong and it's taking us in the
opposite direction. It's tellingus that we can be beautiful
until we're 95 it's telling us,but it's telling us that we at
95 we should look like we're 25No, you should have a beauty at
(33:16):
95 that's a 95 beauty becausethe spirit is still coming
through it. The Spirit, what youlook at when you look at
someone's body is you are seeingspirit in matter, and we forget
that. So just going back andlooking at how you spend your
(33:37):
day, what do you spend it on,and how much time is spent on
the spirit compared to to thematerial most of us it's 99.9%
maybe we say a prayer before amural. Maybe we say a prayer
before we go to bed. Maybe wesay thank you to someone. But
(34:00):
most of us don't do that. Justthink what it would be the
opposite if we spent 99.9% onspirit and point 1%
Kamala Rose (34:14):
on the material. I think as women, we these are
some issues that you know thatyoga certainly introduces to us,
and it's so important to pauseand to think about that very
much, how much time we spend onour outer form and what's
expected of us in our outerform, right? As women, we have a
(34:39):
long, length, long, lengthy listof of roles that we are supposed
to fit into. Right, certainly,being tall and thin is on the
top of most women's subconsciouslist. Right, being thin.
(34:59):
Physically attractive. And, youknow, if we're not able to
perceive ourselves in that way,we often can feel like a
failure, right? I think, I thinkthese, I think this idea of the
body and identifying with thebody really, I think women wear
it in a certain way, and theliberatory insight of yoga can
(35:24):
be exactly the medicine that weneed.
Nischala Joy Devi (35:29):
Yeah, I think we have a incredible need to
have this physicality, becauseit seemed to have gotten
polarized at one point, and themen took on the thinking aspect.
So they're supposed to be theones that think, and they're the
(35:50):
ones that make all thesewonderful inventions, when
actually we look at them, and isa lot of it was from women, but
not from an intellectual wayfrom the intuitive, from coming
from that place within. So Ithink that we really missed an
opportunity as women to use ourintuition, to use our ability to
(36:18):
know things and to trace itback, where did it come from?
And go back to our hearts andrealize that it came from that
nameless, formless place, and wehave been given energy from
that. So I think that whatpeople feel sometimes is they
(36:40):
have to push the spirit, thematerial away. In order to get
the spirit, people think theyhave to go into a monastery or
convent or something like that,when in actuality, is best used
in everyday life. Bringing thatspirit in bringing in the form
of love, you can bring it in anyway you want, but I think the
(37:02):
most common is the form of love,caring, compassion, and you
brought up the Dalai Lama,kindness. Wouldn't it be nice to
just have that? To me, that'sone of the highest spiritual
practices we can do, but wedon't, because we're so fixated
when that which changes insteadof that which never changes. So
(37:27):
if this has been going on for1000s of years that they've been
talking about this in alltraditions, they took it out of
some of the traditions becausepeople got scared about
reincarnation. They took it outalso because they felt they
couldn't control people, becausethey thought they had another
chance at it next lifetime. Solet's just take it out. This is
(37:50):
what people did, and no oneprotested, because no one had
the experience of knowing, or ifit was very few, they didn't.
Instead, let's all do this. Wedon't need a formal process.
Just sit quietly, go into yourheart and feel that self that's
(38:15):
the same as everybody else's,that ray of sun that's in
everybody you
Kamala Rose (38:20):
and this is how the transcendent experience really
for most of us, right when wehave that experience of the Self
and are able to experienceourselves simply as being, as
essence, as Sat Chit Ananda,when we're able to experience
(38:45):
this, it's not just an isolated,personal experience. It, by
nature, expands. And we see thateverything is made of the same
thing, the essence in the air,the fire, the water and the
earth, the nature andintelligence of the animals that
we live with, of the trees andthe plants, we see an
(39:08):
interconnected system of life,right, of nature and spirit
interacting together. And I, Ithink for women, this is
something that we do knowintuitively. And we've we've
forgotten. We've forgotten. Andyou know, they say that you know
(39:29):
the, you know, some of thethings that we some of the
mindsets that we experiencetoday are, you know, are so much
a result of what patriarchy hasdone to us, right? It's told us
that we are not able to knowwithout the translation of men,
(39:51):
right? We are not able to dothis directly, only through a
priest or through a husband oror a. By Sam Mayon, yes, some
men, some way of men explainingto us and making it possible for
us. But we also know intuitivelythat women's spiritual
(40:13):
experience is very natural. Andin fact, before patriarchy, it
was our domain, right, the ritesand rituals and often the
spiritual leaders of villageswould be the women, because we
do walk into the mystic veryeasily. Right? We're able to
(40:34):
understand the comings andgoings and changings of nature
on
Nischala Joy Devi (40:41):
a very intuitive level, because of our
moon cycles and because ofchildbirth, right? You know,
bringing life into the world andwatching it leave, we're we're
often the ones who are presentfor these comings and goings,
especially if they're the onesgiving birth. You're definitely
there. Well, you know, that'sthe other thing, though, because
(41:03):
not only have they taken awaythe Scripture and the the idea
of that you're speaking of, butthey actually took our bodies
away from us too, and told us,after millions of years of
giving birth that we don't knowhow to do that anymore, so we
need to go into a hospital. Weneed to make it a medical
(41:24):
experience instead of aspiritual experience. Now,
rightly, there's some peoplethat need to do that, that have
a very difficult situation ormedical emergency or whatever,
but there's also a lot of womenthat can just give birth and
that's been taken away from usin the West, we need to get this
(41:50):
back. We need to go within andget the power that can't be
taken away from us. We have tolive with that power leading us.
We're walking with that power,because it's going to continue.
There's going to be continuoustrying to take it away. And I
(42:14):
don't think we want to fight. Idon't know. Maybe that's what
this is about. To me, again, I'mnot a fighter, so this is not
something that I would do, butquietly, without making a fuss,
bring that out from your heart.
Bring that out from yourintuition. Start living your
life that way, one at a time,not following the crowd,
(42:39):
listening to what your heart hasto say, and see if your life
changes. See if the BhagavadGita makes sense when you do
things like that. That's what Iwould say. Try it, because it's
going to keep getting takenaway. You know, they say the
best chefs in the world are men.
(42:59):
No, the best chefs in the worldare women, but there's no
acknowledgement of it, becausethey're cooking for their
families. They're not in a big,famous restaurant. All these
things that we've been told thatmen are better. It's not that
they're better. They just dothings in different ways than we
(43:21):
do. So all that is in here. Youknow, when I read this, I also
realize that a lot of thereligions I'm talking about,
definite religions now, notspirituality, discount women
completely. They can't go nearthe altar. They can't do certain
(43:43):
prayers. They can't do thingsthat are open to men. Why? What
is it who's controlling this?
It's not the ultimate spirit.
It's the minds of the smallminded people that are doing
this. So this is what we have toreally do. And I so I think
(44:04):
spirituality and getting this isnot just for realization, which
is main purpose, but also forliving a complete and full life
with the body, with the spiritand the nature, walking together
Kamala Rose (44:24):
wise words to wrap up on. We're certainly in a time
where we as women need to ownour empowerment, and there the
teachings of the Bhagavad Gitacan be so powerful for us at
these at these times of changeand challenge. I think one of
(44:48):
the big takeaways for me is thatthe self existing in all beings
establishes a universal humanvalue that is. Beyond gender,
beyond class, beyond station inlife, beyond east, beyond West.
Yes, all have the same value andall have the same potential to
(45:14):
realize this self within andthat's where our power comes
from. Is from that directrealization. And my friends as
women, as yoga, knees wereNaturals. So please join me in
nishchala in the space ofmeditation throughout your week,
(45:34):
where we ask, who is breathing,who is hearing, who is
experiencing this presentmoment,
Nischala Joy Devi (45:44):
who's offended by that comment? That's
a big one. Someone sayssomething and you get upset. Who
is it that's getting upset?
Think about that. Yeah, join usin meditation, because it's a
river. It all flows.
Kamala Rose (46:06):
Thank you so much for being with us for our
women's Gita podcast. Pleasesubscribe. Turn on your friends.
We'd love to hear from you, anyquestions. Anything you'd like
for us to discuss and cover?
Namaste.
Unknown (46:21):
Namaste. Have a wonderful month, week, life,
perfect. Thank you for joiningus for a women's Gita with
nystula Joy Devi and Kamalarose. We would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a woman's Gita
(46:41):
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
Namaste. You.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.