August 31, 2025 • 47 mins
Dive deep into the profound wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita with Kamala Rose and Nischala Joy Devi as they explore the hidden truths of personal dharma. This transformative podcast unravels the complex layers of spiritual calling, individual purpose, and conscious action through a unique women's perspective.
Key Topics:
- The interconnection of karma and dharma
- Discovering one's authentic life path
- Breaking free from patriarchal limitations
- Spiritual growth and personal transformation
- Conscious decision-making and intentional living
- The role of meditation in understanding personal purpose
- Balancing individual needs with collective responsibility
Join these experienced yoginis as they decode ancient wisdom, sharing personal insights and practical guidance for navigating life's most challenging choices. Whether you're seeking spiritual understanding or practical life direction, "The Cave of the Heart" offers a compassionate, enlightening journey into self-discovery.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kamala Rose (00:00):
Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast. This is
Kamala rose, and this isnischala Joy. Davey, thanks for
joining us today. We arecontinuing our discussion of the
Bhagavad Gita from a women'sperspective. Right now, we're at
the beginning of chapter three,and we're going to talk about
(00:23):
some of the main ideas thatwe're bringing with us from
Chapter Two as we encounter thisthird dialog between Krishna and
the warrior Arjuna. As we leftoff in chapter two, we were
presented the beginning, notonly with the opening battle
(00:45):
scene and Arjuna confusion anddespair at what the right thing
to do is right. We also metKrishna and began the dialog on
what we can simply call the thenature of reality, right? The
nature of the real self andeverything that is impermanent,
(01:12):
right? So as we enter chapterthree, we're bringing with us
some important philosophy, someimportant ideas. And so this is
where nishtula And I would liketo continue to explore this
liminal space between chapters,to dig in a little more deeply
to some of the key terms andideas that we're bringing with
(01:35):
us into our reading of ChapterThree. First of all, this
chapter is called karma yoga,and so we bring the idea of
karma with us. And also comingfrom chapter two is the
important idea of dharma and howDharma and karma relate to each
(01:59):
other. You might remember thatthe very first word of the
Bhagavad Gita is dharma, and itstates the intention of this
text to answer a question forus, what is dharma? What is it
to live in Dharma? And how canwe understand that and live in
(02:21):
Dharma in the midst of karma,right? This, that isn't that the
question. So just to, just toreview a little bit karma is
that repetitive cycle of causeand effect, right? Dharma is a
(02:42):
principle of, let's say, aprinciple of right action, that,
you know it's like, it's like,almost like gravity. It's a law
of nature. In terms of theBhagavad Gita, it's, it's not
something that is belongs to aperson. It's a divine or a
(03:06):
universal quality that reallybelongs more to the, you know,
the larger metaphysical world,the dimensions of you know, we
might think of that as, youknow, the divine of God of
(03:27):
angels, right, in the Vedicworldview, we're looking at the
original story of Prajapati, theoriginal person, a great act of
sacrifice that births the worldwhere the one becomes many. So
here, in chapter three, we'regoing to be talking a little bit
(03:48):
more about that creation mythand what it has to do with
dharma. This is, this is oneprinciple of how Dharma is
infused into the creation ofreality through this original
sacrifice, right? There is aprinciple that there is a right
(04:09):
thing to do in every moment,just as in that original act of
sacrifice, where the one becomesmany. So that idea of letting go
of the personal in in order thatthe welfare of the whole, yes,
(04:34):
everyone could be upheld, right?
So karma and dharma, one'sindividual action, cause and
effect, right? We could almostreduce it, although I hate to
reduce these big, beautifulideas into too simple of terms,
but we can almost say that karmais the individual action, and
dharma has more to do with thecollective. Of the welfare of
(04:59):
everyone and everything, beyondjust human beings, right into
the welfare of the Earth, theanimals and our relationship
with the divine. So coming intochapter three, we're bringing
these big ideas to discuss and
Nischala Joy Devi (05:24):
I think we also have this idea of karma. We
talked about this being good orbad, whereas Dharma, I'm not
sure people think about it inthe same way as good or bad. And
there is an individual Dharma,the Swa Dharma that that comes
into it too. So I think tryingto disengage one from the other
(05:50):
is very difficult. They'rereally melded into each other.
Your your dharma affects yourkarma and vice versa. Excuse me.
So when we start to talk aboutthis, I think that the most
important thing is not to worryabout what happened. We can't
(06:14):
change that. We talked aboutthat different kind of a karma
that comes. But when you're whenyou're in your dharma, and
that's a conscious thing, it'snot something that you
unconsciously follow. There's acertain amount of enlightenment
(06:38):
to use, a word that we have tohave to understand why this next
step is happening, what is goingon next, and yet, there are
people that just follow anddon't understand it. I saw an
amazing clip the other day of a10 year old boy playing the
(06:59):
violin like most virtuosos couldnever do, and he just got up,
and his hands were flying, thebow was flying, and people had
their jaws slacked because hewas so extraordinary. And from
our vantage point right now, wewould say that's his Dharma,
(07:23):
something he did before broughthim to that. So Dharma doesn't
have to be only in the spiritualrealm, but also, we hear of
young doctors, even that are sobrilliant. So this so it's it's
connected with karma, it'sconnected with reincarnation.
(07:44):
It's all fixed in together. AndI think it's hard to pluck one
out and say, This is the leader,because it all comes together.
And you know, sometimes you evensay to yourself, Why am I doing
this? I don't really want to bea whatever it is. And then
(08:05):
someone may who's knows aboutthis, may even say it seems to
be your Dharma to do that. So tounderstand what does that mean,
then it means that thesecollective energies came
together, karma, past lives,drawing people to you now who
support that? Imagine if youwere a genius, but your parents
(08:30):
didn't support it. Either theycouldn't afford it, or they
didn't believe in it. They wouldrather you be do something else
that makes reasonable amount ofmoney, but you can't get away
from it. And that, to me, is thestrength of Dharma that you you
really can't get away from it.
No matter what you do. It keepscoming to you. So
Kamala Rose (08:56):
this is this right to point this out.
Nischala Joy Devi (08:59):
This is the Gita, you know, and it's trying
to explain to us, because it'sreally not, and I hope this is
coming through that it's not astrict philosophy. It's more of
a living book. It's more ofsomething that the teachings are
(09:19):
given so we could live this wayin our lives,
Kamala Rose (09:24):
and sometimes, again, you're so right to point
out it's a little messy. Yeah,it's really hard. It's a lot
messy. Yeah, I'm just gonna behonest. The Gita is there's a
lot going on at the same time.
It's not easy to reduce it toone thing and say, Okay, I
totally understand this textnow. Yeah, because continually,
we're dealing with these, thesecomplicated ideas and how they
(09:48):
interact with each other. It'slike, it's a lot and you know
what you're describing. I thinka lot of our listeners will be
able to. Relate to very much asa calling, right? The things in
life you felt were imperatives
Nischala Joy Devi (10:07):
exactly, good, right? Good, good way of
describing it, yeah, that's whatwe say. It's a calling. Yes,
exactly. Yeah,
Kamala Rose (10:16):
right. We, you and I have in common a calling to
each and it's, it's as much asyou might try to turn away from
it, right? I know I've wrestledwith it my whole life, right? As
much as you might want to dosomething else, it keeps coming
around, and you feel that it'san imperative, that somehow
(10:38):
there is an ethical oughtinvolved with Dharma in finding,
discovering your Swadharma?
Nischala Joy Devi (10:46):
Yeah, I think going even a step further with
the two of us Kamala, we bothbecame monks. And people always
say to me, why did you decide tobecome a monk? And my answer is
always the same, I never decidedit. I didn't grow up thinking,
oh, what I want to do is becomea monk. First of all, I was
never raised in a traditionwhere they even had them. So I
(11:10):
was actually raised without anytradition at all, and to
suddenly want to do that. It hasto be dharma. It has to be it.
And I always tell people I didnot decide. It decided and
pulled me into it. It was neverreally a great decision. So I
(11:31):
think that if we really look andeverybody's lives, not monk or
no monk, why do you fall in lovewith a particular person. One of
my pet scientific experiments, Ican say, or studies, more of a
study is, I love to observecouples. What brought those two
(11:55):
people together? There was somany other people that you could
have been with. What drew you tothat person? What was it and
then, if it was really right, 60years later, you're still with
that person. I mean, that's anamazing thing. It's not like
your brother or sister that youwere born with. You chose this
(12:19):
person, that person chose youwhy? So I think all that is in
the Dharma, all that is, youknow, and and some, some of us
would not choose someone unlessthey were also walking in that
same dharma. I know a lot of myfriends have partners that are
(12:41):
not interested, and howdifficult that makes it,
Kamala Rose (12:50):
this idea of our deepest impulses, right? Our our
deepest senses of identity.
Right? It's we can, we can thinkof this in terms of our personal
Dharma, the things that you areso drawn to, and there's no real
explanation. I think the Gitafamously says, you know this.
(13:13):
This is your nature. Choose, youknow why? Avoid it? Right?
Everyone is compelled to act outof their nature this way. And
when we look at the choices andwho we fall in love with, or the
professions that we choose, thepaths that we choose, both you
(13:36):
and I choosing that monasticpath, I think, I think something
that we've found very much incommon is that we were just very
intensely fell in love withyoga. And that kind of awakening
that comes when you find this,this philosophy, this way of
(13:57):
seeing the world, of living, ofpractice, of meaningfulness, of
belonging to a higher calling,right? Where now your personal
action, all your personalactions, are being dedicated to
the welfare of everyone, right?
This is monasticism. This is thepurpose of it, and what called
(14:21):
the two of us to this. And Ithink in time, knowing that that
original calling, that originalDharma, came to take different
forms, right, and called us outof the monastery to continue
that dharma and continue toserve a greater good. One of my
(14:43):
deep impulses that finally justbecame so much is that I've all
I'm an artist, and, you know,I've always been an artist, but
you know, the life in themonastery is a busy working hard
kind of. Life, there's no, youknow, personal expression.
(15:03):
Nobody's pausing to paint apicture or make a collage or
anything like this, right towrite a book or to express
themselves in that way. In fact,I think you and I also agree
that there's a certain part ofmonasticism that you know there
is quite patriarchal in thesuppression of the individual.
(15:27):
Yes, it doesn't have to be thatway, right? There could be a
much softer way to dedicate allof your actions to the welfare
of others without having tosuppress gifts and things like
this. So you know, in holdingtrue to one's personal Dharma,
(15:48):
it does require an adaptation tothe conditions of your life, to
time and space and what ispresented now in this idea of
karma and this collective causeand effect, this repetitive
cycle of of one's own individuallife course, and then how that
(16:16):
relates to other people and howit relates to the systems in our
world. Are you and I are alsohave a lot in common in that we
feel very responsible, in a way,to, you know, to help with this
very changing, turbulent time inour world, and right to help
(16:39):
with the all of the insightsthat this beautiful yoga
philosophy gives us thatBhagavad Gita gives us about
understanding cycles of time andunderstanding one's personal
responsibility to the collectivesociety right, and exploring
ideas that there's no one rightanswer for everybody. There is
(17:04):
only the balance in one's ownheart. I wanted to share this
quote from the MahabharataYudhishthira says the truth
about Dharma and duty is hiddenin the Cave of the Heart.
(17:27):
Therefore, that alone is thepath along which the great have
trod.
Nischala Joy Devi (17:34):
Wow, that's beautiful. That's beautiful,
Kamala Rose (17:38):
right? So yudhishtira, the son of Dharma,
right? Always doing the rightthing, always balancing action
with a feather in that way,yeah, looking for the right
thing.
Nischala Joy Devi (17:54):
What this is so important to understand, and
we really don't have anequivalent. I don't think in our
society, maybe saying it's acalling, but if we say that,
most people think it's elitist,it's only a few people that are
(18:15):
called. And we're told that. Ithink it's the Bible that says
many are called, fewer chosen. Idon't really agree with that. I
think we choose ourselves. Ithink we make our own decisions.
And how do we know if we're inour dharma? I think that's
(18:36):
probably a question people askme so much, how do we know we're
in our dharma? And I alwaysanswer it Similarly, similarly
in that if you're in yourdharma, your life is easier.
There's an ease that comes evenif it's difficult physically,
even if it's difficult in someways, like monasticism was very
(19:00):
difficult physically on thephysical body. You didn't get a
lot of the creature comforts,but you knew internally that
this was the right thing. Sowhatever happened, the mind
overrode anything that was goingon with the body. I'm not saying
it's right or wrong. It's justthe way we were trained to do
(19:22):
that. And even to this day, Iwas telling someone the other
day about during the pandemic,what I was doing, that I made
all these online courses andwrote two books and all that.
And they looked at me and theysaid, You must have an
incredibly strong mind. So Ithink this is something that the
(19:42):
mind can override the body if itneeds to. And for dharma, it
seems like that's what happens.
It's like it pushes obstaclesout of the way. Like, why would.
I meet an Indian guru and takemonastic vows. You know? How
(20:03):
would that happen? Living in SanFrancisco, you know, I should be
an Indian Rishikesh or in theGanges or somewhere in the
mountains, but because it was mydharma, it drew it to me. And I
was Drew, drawn to it whereverit appeared. So I think this is
something, if we start to lookat it as Dharma, we start to see
(20:26):
patterns that maybe we didn'tsee before. Why did I walk into
that restaurant at thatparticular time and the only
table that was empty was to theman I was going to marry, right?
What? How did that all happen?
Karma that then led to thedharma of being his wife and him
(20:50):
being my husband, or whateverpartnership we've formed. So I
think that it's, it's morecommon that than we really think
of and I think it's somethingthat's, it's pretty
extraordinary, and it's, itseparates us a lot from that
(21:13):
needing to make these decisionsthat I see people agonizing
over, should I do this? Should Ido that? I think one of the
things that the Gita is teachingus is don't try to make a
decision right away. Pull back.
Take all these things intoconsideration, your dharma, your
(21:34):
karma, your your situation, andalso by meditating, the Dharma
becomes clearer. We begin toknow this is our dharma, whereas
someone else was just dosomething and didn't understand
why they were doing it. So Ithink what the Gita does it
(21:56):
makes it a conscious movementtoward Dharma, instead of an
unconscious, which a lot ofpeople have,
Kamala Rose (22:06):
but or expect it to be a sort of unconscious,
spontaneous out of nowhere,something happening to you,
Revelation like, oh My gosh, Ifinally have found my bliss.
Yes, exactly and truly. I think,you know, one of the things I
was thinking when you weretelling the story about how you
(22:29):
met your husband, and we'retalking about very natural flow
of life, yeah, right, it's, it'snot like some horrible thing
you're avoiding and right? Or,you know you're you're busy,
right, having a fun life, andyou've put off doing the
responsible thing, nothing likethat. Yeah, right. It's
(22:51):
accepting the patterns in yourlife, the things that you've
been called to do, as the storythat's hidden in the cave of
your heart, yes, unravelingitself. And I think we come to
points in our lives where we'reable to be more reflective of
that. I think your your pointabout taking the time to think
(23:14):
if we can take one thing fromthis, you know, this battle
scene is that these, thesepeople, have taken the time to
stop and discuss, to contemplatethe nature of reality, the
nature of the authentic self,how they work together, and only
then do they resume action,yeah, yeah. And I there's, a way
(23:41):
that we're given permission. Ithink as women, it's important
to recognize that we seldom feelthat we can give ourselves that
time for introspection, becauseso many people depend on us,
right? So I think sometimes whenwe think about karma, it's as an
individual, right? We can seethat in the Gita, this battle of
(24:04):
krushetra is obviously Arjunaand the Pandavas karma, right?
This and it's with their family.
This is a all these people, allof this intermingling of people
has come together on thisbattlefield. Right? We are also
inter dependent on others, andespecially as women, we've
(24:25):
rarely actually been able tochoose our own path. Right? Our
path has been, yeah, someone'swife or someone's mother, always
someone's daughter, supportiveroles, playing supportive roles
in a larger story. So when wesay, stop and think and meditate
(24:45):
and sink in and question thenature of reality, right, doubt
what you thought about yourself,give yourself the freedom to
explore. To reinvent yourthoughts. This is, I think, what
both of us take from the Gitaand what we're so eager to share
(25:06):
with our our colleagues in theyoga community, the women who
you know, have to change all thepronouns in this text, and they
have to try to recontextualizesome of these very patriarchal
ideas. And when we look at karmaand we look at Dharma, these are
(25:27):
main areas where women have, interms of karma, not had the the
freedom, the human rights tochoose one's own path in the
world, we've played thosesupportive roles. Yes, the
women's movement around theworld, women's movements around
(25:51):
the world have enabled us tohave a different freedom of
choice in this time, and as faras Dharma is concerned, in the
world of the Gita, there was oneDharma for women and it Yeah,
and it's called wife and mother,yep, period the end and
(26:12):
daughter,
Nischala Joy Devi (26:15):
yep, yep. And if men had their way, it would
Kamala Rose (26:20):
still be that way?
Yes, yes.
Nischala Joy Devi (26:24):
You know, see this? I think the brilliance of
this, too is the very firstchapter, actually before the
first chapter, still in theMahabharata, we're told stop.
We're in the middle of abattlefield and everything
(26:44):
stops. To me, that's such astrong teaching, because can you
do that in your life? You're inthe middle of a situation that
you have no clue which way togo, or you don't want to go in
the way it's moving. Can youpull out and stop and just
(27:07):
observe all your choices. Put itout there without that, all that
emotionalism. Can you look atand say, Okay, these are my
choices which way fulfills moreof my dharma, which way will be
something that will elevate meafterwards, rather than take me
(27:30):
back to that same place where Iam. So I think the brilliance of
it, that it's right in thebeginning, he stops everything
right in the center of the twoarmies tells us right away what
to do. Stop. I always say topeople, don't just do something.
(27:50):
Stand there, right instead ofthe opposite, which we're always
told, don't just stand there, dosomething. No, take that time.
Take that time to stand thereand look around. How will look
at the different outcomes. How,if I do fight in this war, what
will happen if I don't fight inthis war? What will happen if I
(28:12):
take my child to daycare todayand drop them off for the whole
day? How will I feel at the endof the day? How will the child
feel? So you start to use atechnique or a path of yoga, the
Yani yoga, more you incorporateinto your life. So it's not a
(28:32):
foreign body. It's somethingthat you use, along with loving
your family and your child andyour whoever else you're with,
that's the bhakti. But also themind has to be in it. The mental
capacity has to really look whatare we doing here, and how are
(28:54):
we doing this. So I think thateach time we move to a different
sloka, it's helping us inward tomake these choices, both for our
spiritual growth anddevelopment, and then to take
(29:14):
that spiritual growth anddevelopment and bring it into
the world. I think that's theonly way the world is really
going to be transformed,certainly not by wars, certainly
not by trade agreements,certainly not by putting people
down and sending them back towhere they belong. We have to
learn that this, this person, isno other than my own self.
(29:42):
Everything changes, and thecriticism of not being engaged
enough in the world that I oftenget I said, You don't
understand. I'm engaging in theworld in a different way. I'm
trying to help people raise theconsciousness that. Living in,
to embrace the world in atotally different level, and
(30:04):
then that changes the world. Sohere we are back in the karma
chapter. We're back in KarmaYoga, because when you get that
spiritual energy, what do you dowith it, you have to help make
the world a better place.
Otherwise, what's the point?
Kamala Rose (30:28):
And as you brought up the gyana yoga and the bhakti
yoga, these are the yogas of theBhagavad Gita, right? We're
going to talk about a lot ofdifferent yogas. And again, like
we said, it's a right? It's acouple balls we're juggling at
the same time when we read theGita. But I think one, one thing
(30:50):
it's important to consider inour understanding of karma is
from a Guyana point of view, amore theoretical point of view,
because, because because we'regoing to be talking about that,
we've been talking about it inchapter two. Right? This sort
of, what is the theory of howthis works? Right? With karma,
(31:10):
we have this really importantidea of motive, right, the why?
Right, we can't really uncoverwhat our Why is unless we have a
time to pause and investigatenow, what caused this action,
right? Why? Why am I why? Why,and How will I act this out?
(31:31):
Right? So all of our, all of ourkarmas, come back to an original
point of intention, and the Gitain Krishnas dialog with Arjuna,
we're going to be at we'll askourselves over and over again,
why? Why do I put my willpowerinto X, Y or Z, right? And this
(31:55):
is what Arjuna questions is Isthis? Is this the right
exertion? Is this the rightmotive for for this exertion of
effort or energy, right? So fromthis idea of intention or
sankalpa, we now it's out ofthis that karma action is
(32:17):
generated by personal willpowerinto action. It can take time
for that action to come all theway full circle and to turn into
results, right? It doesn'thappen in a day. It takes time,
right? So we can have anunderstanding of the way these
(32:39):
the nature of action, theseideas that are handed down to us
by wise meditators, right,authenticated generation after
generation of Soul Searchers wholook to understand, you know,
why are you doing that? Right? Ithink a great example is, you
know, having the idea to take atrip, right? Someday you get it
(33:04):
in your brain, right? I have togo to Italy. I must. Or you get
it in your mind. I had one lastyear where I just absolutely had
to go see that Yoko Ono show inLondon before it closed and I oh
my gosh, to the best of me, Icouldn't let that go, right? I
(33:25):
love Yoko Ono. I love conceptualart and getting to go see this
retrospective. Wow. It ticked alot of boxes for me, right? So I
have, I have a why, andeventually it turns into an
action. I make a decision to buya ticket, right? And it's really
(33:47):
buying that ticket that we cansay is the action, and it's not
going to be for, you know, sixweeks later, until I get on the
plane and go and take the tripand then fly home and come back
home and we can say that thefruits of that action are, I'm
continuing to discover thatright. So this chapter asks us
(34:11):
to dig deep and understand whywe act. Right? What's the
premise of action, why we choosethese things? Right? Is it? Is
this a deep, deep soulmotivation to do this? Right? I
know for myself as an artist,seeing art like that absolutely
a dharmic thing, absolutelyimportant to me. But it's that
(34:37):
theoretical understanding of theway action works, and the way we
relate to the world, how we makedecisions. One of the great
teachings of the Upanishads asksus to watch your thoughts for
they become your words. Watchyour words because they. Become
(35:00):
your actions. Watch youractions. They become your
habits, your Sam scaras, or yourhabits become your character,
right? That's swell. Bahava,your who you are, and your
character then becomes yourdestiny. It's your contribution
(35:21):
to the world. It's the way youspent your time in this
lifetime, right? Sounderstanding karma is so
important, understanding Dharmais so important. And these are
the gifts that the Gita has fora patient heart.
Nischala Joy Devi (35:39):
I think that's patience of the heart is
something that's so important.
And you know, I think one of thequestions to ask yourself when
you're going through thatprocess is, who will this
benefit? And the answer, Ithink, that you really want to
(36:00):
come to is that it will benefitmore than you. Because even if
you think it's going to benefitonly you, if you are a person
who allows their light to tomove past their own being to
share that with others. Anytimeyour light is strengthened,
(36:25):
anytime it is given what itneeds for food, then life goes
then, then it continues anddifferent places in the Gita, it
talks about definitions of yoga,but one of the places that it
really talks about the idea thatit should that a perfect action,
(36:47):
which we're talking about nowwith karma, Yoga should bring
benefit to some and harm to noone. And I think this is
probably one of the things thatI've lived my life following and
anytime I have to make adecision, I always take this
because sometimes it doesn'tbring benefit to everyone. And
(37:11):
you have to really understandthat some decisions just don't
even the simplest one of notletting your child go on where
they want to go at thatparticular time, they may get
very angry at you, but you knowthe reason? Because hopefully
you have a little more wisdom.
So when we look at this, we andask ourselves the question, Does
(37:35):
this bring benefit? And if itdoes, does, then you have to ask
the second one, does it bringharm to anyone? So because
everything we do, even if itseems like it's good karma, and
I'm not saying there's somebodyup there with a clipboard every
time we do something, and thenmake a little slash on their
(37:58):
their clipboard, if you want tobelieve that that's fine, but
what happens is there's anenergetic accrued accruement of
these karmas, and you you wantto have a little bit more on the
altruistic side than you want todo on the selfish side. And then
(38:19):
eventually the altruistic sidegrows and grows and grows, and
you are committing a perfect actthat brings benefit to some. It
doesn't say everyone and harm tono one. So really, having that
in mind, and I think we wouldprobably act a lot less have
(38:42):
actions, because if we reallythought about all of our actions
first, you know, one of thethings that that comes first to
my mind are sports games. Youknow, we talk about
sportsmanship, and, you know, weshake hands in the beginning and
we shake hands at the end and dothat, but really we want to win,
(39:04):
that's, that's the main thing.
And instead, and we, we evensay, oh, it's not if you win or
lose, but who play, how you playthe game. Most people really
don't believe that, because yousee them out there and they get
really upset if their teamdoesn't win, but what about
looking at the other people whohave lost? Do you really want to
(39:24):
make someone feel like that?
Wouldn't it be better to havethem smiling and laughing and
being happy so the world we havecreated with without the benefit
of hearing the teachings of theGita, can be really enhanced if,
(39:49):
when we add the teachings of theGita,
Kamala Rose (39:53):
the insights into the nature of action make us so.
It give us a definite wisdom inaction, this intention of doing
the greatest good right, helpingthe most and hurting the least.
We live in this time where wehave access to so much
(40:17):
information and something likean example of taking that flight
to London, right, the the costto the environment every flight
we take, right? I think it canbe, it can be hard to balance
that out. It's almost like, youknow, if you're a neurotic
recycler, like I am, you take itso personally you don't want to
(40:39):
do anything because you don'twant to hurt anybody, right? But
right, it has to be a balance.
That idea of punya karma,meritorious karma, things that
lead towards good actions, punyakarma and a punya karma, right?
Like you could use an example,like gambling on those sports
games, right? Taking, trying toget more than what you put in.
(41:01):
Those are ideas. You know, whereyou're you're trying to cheat
the system somehow, right?
These, this is a constant themehere. You know who's punya,
who's meritorious are thosePandavas and who's a punya doing
terrible things, or thoseKauravas, right? So we have this
(41:24):
dichotomy of the, you know, thechoices that we make. We have it
illustrated in this story, andit brings us around to this, you
know, this important idea that,you know, it's not so much the
action itself, it's the why,right? All of these warriors are
on the battlefield the same way.
They're all armed. They're allready to fight to the end. But
(41:45):
we have some that are therebecause they're trying to do the
right thing, and we have othersthat are there and they're
trying to rip someone off. Yep,right. So we have corruption,
and we have the ideal of servinga greater good, upholding
humanity. It really drives homethe point that the personal is
(42:08):
political, yep, right the way,the intention, the why of how
you act, and the you know, thethings that you choose to do out
of that intention, they expressthat. They express dharma. They
express who you are and what youmean. So I, you know, I'm
(42:30):
thinking about that question youbrought up earlier that how
people ask you, how can I besure I'm doing my dharma? And I
think it's, I think there's noone right thing to do. It's a
matter of balancing what's rightright now and continuing to
balance what is right right now.
(42:54):
What action can I do out of myintention to serve the better?
Yeah, right. I'm a Pandava. I'mwith the good guys, right? We
want to uplift the world. Andagain, this is something I
actually am only realizing rightnow that came together from my
trip to see Yoko Ono, was reallyrealizing the personal is
(43:18):
political, right? The way weexpress ourselves, the art we
make, the statements we make,the podcasts we do, we're
expressing what is the ourcalling in that way. And
anything you do, whether it'smaking lunch for somebody or
(43:38):
it's, you know, buying thepeople behind you a coffee in
line. You know, whatever it isthat you're doing, it's the
meaning that is in the cave ofyour heart, that is the Dharma
that's the right thing to do.
Yeah,
Nischala Joy Devi (43:54):
I so, so true. And what you what you were
just saying about how it changesbecause it's, it's it's a
situation, and the situationsare different at different
times. Let me just tell thisreally quick little story that's
that's just so funny. A friendof mine, her daughter, went as
(44:17):
an exchange student to India,and she was living with a
family, and she came one day,and they gave her a room. She
spent the night, and she camedown for breakfast the next
morning, and the mother came upand she said, Are you okay? She
said, Yes, I'm fine. Why? Andshe said, I was so worried about
you. She said, why? She said,Because you were sleeping all by
(44:40):
yourself, and they just couldn'timagine somebody would be
comfortable. She said, Tonight,why don't you sleep with my son?
And my friend looked at her andshe said, in my country, I would
be arrested for doing somethinglike that. So here's a situation
where. One person, it was normaland actually comforting to
(45:05):
another person, it washorrifying in a way. So
everything has to be reassessed,and that's why the time out is
so important. Is this situationlike the last one? Is my dharma
going to take me into this? Oris this something that is not
really for me right now? So it'sthat constant assessing, which I
(45:29):
think, I think tires people out,and that's why they just say,
forget it. I'm just going to dowhatever feels right at the
moment, which is a good thing,but you have to have the
consciousness expansion tounderstand what is good at that
moment and at this moment, Ithink it's a good place to stop.
Kamala Rose (45:55):
Thank you.
Nischala, important points toconsider, yes, yes, yes, and
we'll look forward to seeing youall next time on a woman's Gita
podcast. Bye for now. Namaste.
Nischala Joy Devi (46:09):
Namaste. You.
Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast. This is
Kamala rose, and this isnischala Joy. Davey, thanks for
joining us today. We arecontinuing our discussion of the
Bhagavad Gita from a women'sperspective. Right now, we're at
the beginning of chapter three,and we're going to talk about
(00:23):
some of the main ideas thatwe're bringing with us from
Chapter Two as we encounter thisthird dialog between Krishna and
the warrior Arjuna. As we leftoff in chapter two, we were
presented the beginning, notonly with the opening battle
(00:45):
scene and Arjuna confusion anddespair at what the right thing
to do is right. We also metKrishna and began the dialog on
what we can simply call the thenature of reality, right? The
nature of the real self andeverything that is impermanent,
(01:12):
right? So as we enter chapterthree, we're bringing with us
some important philosophy, someimportant ideas. And so this is
where nishtula And I would liketo continue to explore this
liminal space between chapters,to dig in a little more deeply
to some of the key terms andideas that we're bringing with
(01:35):
us into our reading of ChapterThree. First of all, this
chapter is called karma yoga,and so we bring the idea of
karma with us. And also comingfrom chapter two is the
important idea of dharma and howDharma and karma relate to each
(01:59):
other. You might remember thatthe very first word of the
Bhagavad Gita is dharma, and itstates the intention of this
text to answer a question forus, what is dharma? What is it
to live in Dharma? And how canwe understand that and live in
(02:21):
Dharma in the midst of karma,right? This, that isn't that the
question. So just to, just toreview a little bit karma is
that repetitive cycle of causeand effect, right? Dharma is a
(02:42):
principle of, let's say, aprinciple of right action, that,
you know it's like, it's like,almost like gravity. It's a law
of nature. In terms of theBhagavad Gita, it's, it's not
something that is belongs to aperson. It's a divine or a
(03:06):
universal quality that reallybelongs more to the, you know,
the larger metaphysical world,the dimensions of you know, we
might think of that as, youknow, the divine of God of
(03:27):
angels, right, in the Vedicworldview, we're looking at the
original story of Prajapati, theoriginal person, a great act of
sacrifice that births the worldwhere the one becomes many. So
here, in chapter three, we'regoing to be talking a little bit
(03:48):
more about that creation mythand what it has to do with
dharma. This is, this is oneprinciple of how Dharma is
infused into the creation ofreality through this original
sacrifice, right? There is aprinciple that there is a right
(04:09):
thing to do in every moment,just as in that original act of
sacrifice, where the one becomesmany. So that idea of letting go
of the personal in in order thatthe welfare of the whole, yes,
(04:34):
everyone could be upheld, right?
So karma and dharma, one'sindividual action, cause and
effect, right? We could almostreduce it, although I hate to
reduce these big, beautifulideas into too simple of terms,
but we can almost say that karmais the individual action, and
dharma has more to do with thecollective. Of the welfare of
(04:59):
everyone and everything, beyondjust human beings, right into
the welfare of the Earth, theanimals and our relationship
with the divine. So coming intochapter three, we're bringing
these big ideas to discuss and
Nischala Joy Devi (05:24):
I think we also have this idea of karma. We
talked about this being good orbad, whereas Dharma, I'm not
sure people think about it inthe same way as good or bad. And
there is an individual Dharma,the Swa Dharma that that comes
into it too. So I think tryingto disengage one from the other
(05:50):
is very difficult. They'rereally melded into each other.
Your your dharma affects yourkarma and vice versa. Excuse me.
So when we start to talk aboutthis, I think that the most
important thing is not to worryabout what happened. We can't
(06:14):
change that. We talked aboutthat different kind of a karma
that comes. But when you're whenyou're in your dharma, and
that's a conscious thing, it'snot something that you
unconsciously follow. There's acertain amount of enlightenment
(06:38):
to use, a word that we have tohave to understand why this next
step is happening, what is goingon next, and yet, there are
people that just follow anddon't understand it. I saw an
amazing clip the other day of a10 year old boy playing the
(06:59):
violin like most virtuosos couldnever do, and he just got up,
and his hands were flying, thebow was flying, and people had
their jaws slacked because hewas so extraordinary. And from
our vantage point right now, wewould say that's his Dharma,
(07:23):
something he did before broughthim to that. So Dharma doesn't
have to be only in the spiritualrealm, but also, we hear of
young doctors, even that are sobrilliant. So this so it's it's
connected with karma, it'sconnected with reincarnation.
(07:44):
It's all fixed in together. AndI think it's hard to pluck one
out and say, This is the leader,because it all comes together.
And you know, sometimes you evensay to yourself, Why am I doing
this? I don't really want to bea whatever it is. And then
(08:05):
someone may who's knows aboutthis, may even say it seems to
be your Dharma to do that. So tounderstand what does that mean,
then it means that thesecollective energies came
together, karma, past lives,drawing people to you now who
support that? Imagine if youwere a genius, but your parents
(08:30):
didn't support it. Either theycouldn't afford it, or they
didn't believe in it. They wouldrather you be do something else
that makes reasonable amount ofmoney, but you can't get away
from it. And that, to me, is thestrength of Dharma that you you
really can't get away from it.
No matter what you do. It keepscoming to you. So
Kamala Rose (08:56):
this is this right to point this out.
Nischala Joy Devi (08:59):
This is the Gita, you know, and it's trying
to explain to us, because it'sreally not, and I hope this is
coming through that it's not astrict philosophy. It's more of
a living book. It's more ofsomething that the teachings are
(09:19):
given so we could live this wayin our lives,
Kamala Rose (09:24):
and sometimes, again, you're so right to point
out it's a little messy. Yeah,it's really hard. It's a lot
messy. Yeah, I'm just gonna behonest. The Gita is there's a
lot going on at the same time.
It's not easy to reduce it toone thing and say, Okay, I
totally understand this textnow. Yeah, because continually,
we're dealing with these, thesecomplicated ideas and how they
(09:48):
interact with each other. It'slike, it's a lot and you know
what you're describing. I thinka lot of our listeners will be
able to. Relate to very much asa calling, right? The things in
life you felt were imperatives
Nischala Joy Devi (10:07):
exactly, good, right? Good, good way of
describing it, yeah, that's whatwe say. It's a calling. Yes,
exactly. Yeah,
Kamala Rose (10:16):
right. We, you and I have in common a calling to
each and it's, it's as much asyou might try to turn away from
it, right? I know I've wrestledwith it my whole life, right? As
much as you might want to dosomething else, it keeps coming
around, and you feel that it'san imperative, that somehow
(10:38):
there is an ethical oughtinvolved with Dharma in finding,
discovering your Swadharma?
Nischala Joy Devi (10:46):
Yeah, I think going even a step further with
the two of us Kamala, we bothbecame monks. And people always
say to me, why did you decide tobecome a monk? And my answer is
always the same, I never decidedit. I didn't grow up thinking,
oh, what I want to do is becomea monk. First of all, I was
never raised in a traditionwhere they even had them. So I
(11:10):
was actually raised without anytradition at all, and to
suddenly want to do that. It hasto be dharma. It has to be it.
And I always tell people I didnot decide. It decided and
pulled me into it. It was neverreally a great decision. So I
(11:31):
think that if we really look andeverybody's lives, not monk or
no monk, why do you fall in lovewith a particular person. One of
my pet scientific experiments, Ican say, or studies, more of a
study is, I love to observecouples. What brought those two
(11:55):
people together? There was somany other people that you could
have been with. What drew you tothat person? What was it and
then, if it was really right, 60years later, you're still with
that person. I mean, that's anamazing thing. It's not like
your brother or sister that youwere born with. You chose this
(12:19):
person, that person chose youwhy? So I think all that is in
the Dharma, all that is, youknow, and and some, some of us
would not choose someone unlessthey were also walking in that
same dharma. I know a lot of myfriends have partners that are
(12:41):
not interested, and howdifficult that makes it,
Kamala Rose (12:50):
this idea of our deepest impulses, right? Our our
deepest senses of identity.
Right? It's we can, we can thinkof this in terms of our personal
Dharma, the things that you areso drawn to, and there's no real
explanation. I think the Gitafamously says, you know this.
(13:13):
This is your nature. Choose, youknow why? Avoid it? Right?
Everyone is compelled to act outof their nature this way. And
when we look at the choices andwho we fall in love with, or the
professions that we choose, thepaths that we choose, both you
(13:36):
and I choosing that monasticpath, I think, I think something
that we've found very much incommon is that we were just very
intensely fell in love withyoga. And that kind of awakening
that comes when you find this,this philosophy, this way of
(13:57):
seeing the world, of living, ofpractice, of meaningfulness, of
belonging to a higher calling,right? Where now your personal
action, all your personalactions, are being dedicated to
the welfare of everyone, right?
This is monasticism. This is thepurpose of it, and what called
(14:21):
the two of us to this. And Ithink in time, knowing that that
original calling, that originalDharma, came to take different
forms, right, and called us outof the monastery to continue
that dharma and continue toserve a greater good. One of my
(14:43):
deep impulses that finally justbecame so much is that I've all
I'm an artist, and, you know,I've always been an artist, but
you know, the life in themonastery is a busy working hard
kind of. Life, there's no, youknow, personal expression.
(15:03):
Nobody's pausing to paint apicture or make a collage or
anything like this, right towrite a book or to express
themselves in that way. In fact,I think you and I also agree
that there's a certain part ofmonasticism that you know there
is quite patriarchal in thesuppression of the individual.
(15:27):
Yes, it doesn't have to be thatway, right? There could be a
much softer way to dedicate allof your actions to the welfare
of others without having tosuppress gifts and things like
this. So you know, in holdingtrue to one's personal Dharma,
(15:48):
it does require an adaptation tothe conditions of your life, to
time and space and what ispresented now in this idea of
karma and this collective causeand effect, this repetitive
cycle of of one's own individuallife course, and then how that
(16:16):
relates to other people and howit relates to the systems in our
world. Are you and I are alsohave a lot in common in that we
feel very responsible, in a way,to, you know, to help with this
very changing, turbulent time inour world, and right to help
(16:39):
with the all of the insightsthat this beautiful yoga
philosophy gives us thatBhagavad Gita gives us about
understanding cycles of time andunderstanding one's personal
responsibility to the collectivesociety right, and exploring
ideas that there's no one rightanswer for everybody. There is
(17:04):
only the balance in one's ownheart. I wanted to share this
quote from the MahabharataYudhishthira says the truth
about Dharma and duty is hiddenin the Cave of the Heart.
(17:27):
Therefore, that alone is thepath along which the great have
trod.
Nischala Joy Devi (17:34):
Wow, that's beautiful. That's beautiful,
Kamala Rose (17:38):
right? So yudhishtira, the son of Dharma,
right? Always doing the rightthing, always balancing action
with a feather in that way,yeah, looking for the right
thing.
Nischala Joy Devi (17:54):
What this is so important to understand, and
we really don't have anequivalent. I don't think in our
society, maybe saying it's acalling, but if we say that,
most people think it's elitist,it's only a few people that are
(18:15):
called. And we're told that. Ithink it's the Bible that says
many are called, fewer chosen. Idon't really agree with that. I
think we choose ourselves. Ithink we make our own decisions.
And how do we know if we're inour dharma? I think that's
(18:36):
probably a question people askme so much, how do we know we're
in our dharma? And I alwaysanswer it Similarly, similarly
in that if you're in yourdharma, your life is easier.
There's an ease that comes evenif it's difficult physically,
even if it's difficult in someways, like monasticism was very
(19:00):
difficult physically on thephysical body. You didn't get a
lot of the creature comforts,but you knew internally that
this was the right thing. Sowhatever happened, the mind
overrode anything that was goingon with the body. I'm not saying
it's right or wrong. It's justthe way we were trained to do
(19:22):
that. And even to this day, Iwas telling someone the other
day about during the pandemic,what I was doing, that I made
all these online courses andwrote two books and all that.
And they looked at me and theysaid, You must have an
incredibly strong mind. So Ithink this is something that the
(19:42):
mind can override the body if itneeds to. And for dharma, it
seems like that's what happens.
It's like it pushes obstaclesout of the way. Like, why would.
I meet an Indian guru and takemonastic vows. You know? How
(20:03):
would that happen? Living in SanFrancisco, you know, I should be
an Indian Rishikesh or in theGanges or somewhere in the
mountains, but because it was mydharma, it drew it to me. And I
was Drew, drawn to it whereverit appeared. So I think this is
something, if we start to lookat it as Dharma, we start to see
(20:26):
patterns that maybe we didn'tsee before. Why did I walk into
that restaurant at thatparticular time and the only
table that was empty was to theman I was going to marry, right?
What? How did that all happen?
Karma that then led to thedharma of being his wife and him
(20:50):
being my husband, or whateverpartnership we've formed. So I
think that it's, it's morecommon that than we really think
of and I think it's somethingthat's, it's pretty
extraordinary, and it's, itseparates us a lot from that
(21:13):
needing to make these decisionsthat I see people agonizing
over, should I do this? Should Ido that? I think one of the
things that the Gita is teachingus is don't try to make a
decision right away. Pull back.
Take all these things intoconsideration, your dharma, your
(21:34):
karma, your your situation, andalso by meditating, the Dharma
becomes clearer. We begin toknow this is our dharma, whereas
someone else was just dosomething and didn't understand
why they were doing it. So Ithink what the Gita does it
(21:56):
makes it a conscious movementtoward Dharma, instead of an
unconscious, which a lot ofpeople have,
Kamala Rose (22:06):
but or expect it to be a sort of unconscious,
spontaneous out of nowhere,something happening to you,
Revelation like, oh My gosh, Ifinally have found my bliss.
Yes, exactly and truly. I think,you know, one of the things I
was thinking when you weretelling the story about how you
(22:29):
met your husband, and we'retalking about very natural flow
of life, yeah, right, it's, it'snot like some horrible thing
you're avoiding and right? Or,you know you're you're busy,
right, having a fun life, andyou've put off doing the
responsible thing, nothing likethat. Yeah, right. It's
(22:51):
accepting the patterns in yourlife, the things that you've
been called to do, as the storythat's hidden in the cave of
your heart, yes, unravelingitself. And I think we come to
points in our lives where we'reable to be more reflective of
that. I think your your pointabout taking the time to think
(23:14):
if we can take one thing fromthis, you know, this battle
scene is that these, thesepeople, have taken the time to
stop and discuss, to contemplatethe nature of reality, the
nature of the authentic self,how they work together, and only
then do they resume action,yeah, yeah. And I there's, a way
(23:41):
that we're given permission. Ithink as women, it's important
to recognize that we seldom feelthat we can give ourselves that
time for introspection, becauseso many people depend on us,
right? So I think sometimes whenwe think about karma, it's as an
individual, right? We can seethat in the Gita, this battle of
(24:04):
krushetra is obviously Arjunaand the Pandavas karma, right?
This and it's with their family.
This is a all these people, allof this intermingling of people
has come together on thisbattlefield. Right? We are also
inter dependent on others, andespecially as women, we've
(24:25):
rarely actually been able tochoose our own path. Right? Our
path has been, yeah, someone'swife or someone's mother, always
someone's daughter, supportiveroles, playing supportive roles
in a larger story. So when wesay, stop and think and meditate
(24:45):
and sink in and question thenature of reality, right, doubt
what you thought about yourself,give yourself the freedom to
explore. To reinvent yourthoughts. This is, I think, what
both of us take from the Gitaand what we're so eager to share
(25:06):
with our our colleagues in theyoga community, the women who
you know, have to change all thepronouns in this text, and they
have to try to recontextualizesome of these very patriarchal
ideas. And when we look at karmaand we look at Dharma, these are
(25:27):
main areas where women have, interms of karma, not had the the
freedom, the human rights tochoose one's own path in the
world, we've played thosesupportive roles. Yes, the
women's movement around theworld, women's movements around
(25:51):
the world have enabled us tohave a different freedom of
choice in this time, and as faras Dharma is concerned, in the
world of the Gita, there was oneDharma for women and it Yeah,
and it's called wife and mother,yep, period the end and
(26:12):
daughter,
Nischala Joy Devi (26:15):
yep, yep. And if men had their way, it would
Kamala Rose (26:20):
still be that way?
Yes, yes.
Nischala Joy Devi (26:24):
You know, see this? I think the brilliance of
this, too is the very firstchapter, actually before the
first chapter, still in theMahabharata, we're told stop.
We're in the middle of abattlefield and everything
(26:44):
stops. To me, that's such astrong teaching, because can you
do that in your life? You're inthe middle of a situation that
you have no clue which way togo, or you don't want to go in
the way it's moving. Can youpull out and stop and just
(27:07):
observe all your choices. Put itout there without that, all that
emotionalism. Can you look atand say, Okay, these are my
choices which way fulfills moreof my dharma, which way will be
something that will elevate meafterwards, rather than take me
(27:30):
back to that same place where Iam. So I think the brilliance of
it, that it's right in thebeginning, he stops everything
right in the center of the twoarmies tells us right away what
to do. Stop. I always say topeople, don't just do something.
(27:50):
Stand there, right instead ofthe opposite, which we're always
told, don't just stand there, dosomething. No, take that time.
Take that time to stand thereand look around. How will look
at the different outcomes. How,if I do fight in this war, what
will happen if I don't fight inthis war? What will happen if I
(28:12):
take my child to daycare todayand drop them off for the whole
day? How will I feel at the endof the day? How will the child
feel? So you start to use atechnique or a path of yoga, the
Yani yoga, more you incorporateinto your life. So it's not a
(28:32):
foreign body. It's somethingthat you use, along with loving
your family and your child andyour whoever else you're with,
that's the bhakti. But also themind has to be in it. The mental
capacity has to really look whatare we doing here, and how are
(28:54):
we doing this. So I think thateach time we move to a different
sloka, it's helping us inward tomake these choices, both for our
spiritual growth anddevelopment, and then to take
(29:14):
that spiritual growth anddevelopment and bring it into
the world. I think that's theonly way the world is really
going to be transformed,certainly not by wars, certainly
not by trade agreements,certainly not by putting people
down and sending them back towhere they belong. We have to
learn that this, this person, isno other than my own self.
(29:42):
Everything changes, and thecriticism of not being engaged
enough in the world that I oftenget I said, You don't
understand. I'm engaging in theworld in a different way. I'm
trying to help people raise theconsciousness that. Living in,
to embrace the world in atotally different level, and
(30:04):
then that changes the world. Sohere we are back in the karma
chapter. We're back in KarmaYoga, because when you get that
spiritual energy, what do you dowith it, you have to help make
the world a better place.
Otherwise, what's the point?
Kamala Rose (30:28):
And as you brought up the gyana yoga and the bhakti
yoga, these are the yogas of theBhagavad Gita, right? We're
going to talk about a lot ofdifferent yogas. And again, like
we said, it's a right? It's acouple balls we're juggling at
the same time when we read theGita. But I think one, one thing
(30:50):
it's important to consider inour understanding of karma is
from a Guyana point of view, amore theoretical point of view,
because, because because we'regoing to be talking about that,
we've been talking about it inchapter two. Right? This sort
of, what is the theory of howthis works? Right? With karma,
(31:10):
we have this really importantidea of motive, right, the why?
Right, we can't really uncoverwhat our Why is unless we have a
time to pause and investigatenow, what caused this action,
right? Why? Why am I why? Why,and How will I act this out?
(31:31):
Right? So all of our, all of ourkarmas, come back to an original
point of intention, and the Gitain Krishnas dialog with Arjuna,
we're going to be at we'll askourselves over and over again,
why? Why do I put my willpowerinto X, Y or Z, right? And this
(31:55):
is what Arjuna questions is Isthis? Is this the right
exertion? Is this the rightmotive for for this exertion of
effort or energy, right? So fromthis idea of intention or
sankalpa, we now it's out ofthis that karma action is
(32:17):
generated by personal willpowerinto action. It can take time
for that action to come all theway full circle and to turn into
results, right? It doesn'thappen in a day. It takes time,
right? So we can have anunderstanding of the way these
(32:39):
the nature of action, theseideas that are handed down to us
by wise meditators, right,authenticated generation after
generation of Soul Searchers wholook to understand, you know,
why are you doing that? Right? Ithink a great example is, you
know, having the idea to take atrip, right? Someday you get it
(33:04):
in your brain, right? I have togo to Italy. I must. Or you get
it in your mind. I had one lastyear where I just absolutely had
to go see that Yoko Ono show inLondon before it closed and I oh
my gosh, to the best of me, Icouldn't let that go, right? I
(33:25):
love Yoko Ono. I love conceptualart and getting to go see this
retrospective. Wow. It ticked alot of boxes for me, right? So I
have, I have a why, andeventually it turns into an
action. I make a decision to buya ticket, right? And it's really
(33:47):
buying that ticket that we cansay is the action, and it's not
going to be for, you know, sixweeks later, until I get on the
plane and go and take the tripand then fly home and come back
home and we can say that thefruits of that action are, I'm
continuing to discover thatright. So this chapter asks us
(34:11):
to dig deep and understand whywe act. Right? What's the
premise of action, why we choosethese things? Right? Is it? Is
this a deep, deep soulmotivation to do this? Right? I
know for myself as an artist,seeing art like that absolutely
a dharmic thing, absolutelyimportant to me. But it's that
(34:37):
theoretical understanding of theway action works, and the way we
relate to the world, how we makedecisions. One of the great
teachings of the Upanishads asksus to watch your thoughts for
they become your words. Watchyour words because they. Become
(35:00):
your actions. Watch youractions. They become your
habits, your Sam scaras, or yourhabits become your character,
right? That's swell. Bahava,your who you are, and your
character then becomes yourdestiny. It's your contribution
(35:21):
to the world. It's the way youspent your time in this
lifetime, right? Sounderstanding karma is so
important, understanding Dharmais so important. And these are
the gifts that the Gita has fora patient heart.
Nischala Joy Devi (35:39):
I think that's patience of the heart is
something that's so important.
And you know, I think one of thequestions to ask yourself when
you're going through thatprocess is, who will this
benefit? And the answer, Ithink, that you really want to
(36:00):
come to is that it will benefitmore than you. Because even if
you think it's going to benefitonly you, if you are a person
who allows their light to tomove past their own being to
share that with others. Anytimeyour light is strengthened,
(36:25):
anytime it is given what itneeds for food, then life goes
then, then it continues anddifferent places in the Gita, it
talks about definitions of yoga,but one of the places that it
really talks about the idea thatit should that a perfect action,
(36:47):
which we're talking about nowwith karma, Yoga should bring
benefit to some and harm to noone. And I think this is
probably one of the things thatI've lived my life following and
anytime I have to make adecision, I always take this
because sometimes it doesn'tbring benefit to everyone. And
(37:11):
you have to really understandthat some decisions just don't
even the simplest one of notletting your child go on where
they want to go at thatparticular time, they may get
very angry at you, but you knowthe reason? Because hopefully
you have a little more wisdom.
So when we look at this, we andask ourselves the question, Does
(37:35):
this bring benefit? And if itdoes, does, then you have to ask
the second one, does it bringharm to anyone? So because
everything we do, even if itseems like it's good karma, and
I'm not saying there's somebodyup there with a clipboard every
time we do something, and thenmake a little slash on their
(37:58):
their clipboard, if you want tobelieve that that's fine, but
what happens is there's anenergetic accrued accruement of
these karmas, and you you wantto have a little bit more on the
altruistic side than you want todo on the selfish side. And then
(38:19):
eventually the altruistic sidegrows and grows and grows, and
you are committing a perfect actthat brings benefit to some. It
doesn't say everyone and harm tono one. So really, having that
in mind, and I think we wouldprobably act a lot less have
(38:42):
actions, because if we reallythought about all of our actions
first, you know, one of thethings that that comes first to
my mind are sports games. Youknow, we talk about
sportsmanship, and, you know, weshake hands in the beginning and
we shake hands at the end and dothat, but really we want to win,
(39:04):
that's, that's the main thing.
And instead, and we, we evensay, oh, it's not if you win or
lose, but who play, how you playthe game. Most people really
don't believe that, because yousee them out there and they get
really upset if their teamdoesn't win, but what about
looking at the other people whohave lost? Do you really want to
(39:24):
make someone feel like that?
Wouldn't it be better to havethem smiling and laughing and
being happy so the world we havecreated with without the benefit
of hearing the teachings of theGita, can be really enhanced if,
(39:49):
when we add the teachings of theGita,
Kamala Rose (39:53):
the insights into the nature of action make us so.
It give us a definite wisdom inaction, this intention of doing
the greatest good right, helpingthe most and hurting the least.
We live in this time where wehave access to so much
(40:17):
information and something likean example of taking that flight
to London, right, the the costto the environment every flight
we take, right? I think it canbe, it can be hard to balance
that out. It's almost like, youknow, if you're a neurotic
recycler, like I am, you take itso personally you don't want to
(40:39):
do anything because you don'twant to hurt anybody, right? But
right, it has to be a balance.
That idea of punya karma,meritorious karma, things that
lead towards good actions, punyakarma and a punya karma, right?
Like you could use an example,like gambling on those sports
games, right? Taking, trying toget more than what you put in.
(41:01):
Those are ideas. You know, whereyou're you're trying to cheat
the system somehow, right?
These, this is a constant themehere. You know who's punya,
who's meritorious are thosePandavas and who's a punya doing
terrible things, or thoseKauravas, right? So we have this
(41:24):
dichotomy of the, you know, thechoices that we make. We have it
illustrated in this story, andit brings us around to this, you
know, this important idea that,you know, it's not so much the
action itself, it's the why,right? All of these warriors are
on the battlefield the same way.
They're all armed. They're allready to fight to the end. But
(41:45):
we have some that are therebecause they're trying to do the
right thing, and we have othersthat are there and they're
trying to rip someone off. Yep,right. So we have corruption,
and we have the ideal of servinga greater good, upholding
humanity. It really drives homethe point that the personal is
(42:08):
political, yep, right the way,the intention, the why of how
you act, and the you know, thethings that you choose to do out
of that intention, they expressthat. They express dharma. They
express who you are and what youmean. So I, you know, I'm
(42:30):
thinking about that question youbrought up earlier that how
people ask you, how can I besure I'm doing my dharma? And I
think it's, I think there's noone right thing to do. It's a
matter of balancing what's rightright now and continuing to
balance what is right right now.
(42:54):
What action can I do out of myintention to serve the better?
Yeah, right. I'm a Pandava. I'mwith the good guys, right? We
want to uplift the world. Andagain, this is something I
actually am only realizing rightnow that came together from my
trip to see Yoko Ono, was reallyrealizing the personal is
(43:18):
political, right? The way weexpress ourselves, the art we
make, the statements we make,the podcasts we do, we're
expressing what is the ourcalling in that way. And
anything you do, whether it'smaking lunch for somebody or
(43:38):
it's, you know, buying thepeople behind you a coffee in
line. You know, whatever it isthat you're doing, it's the
meaning that is in the cave ofyour heart, that is the Dharma
that's the right thing to do.
Yeah,
Nischala Joy Devi (43:54):
I so, so true. And what you what you were
just saying about how it changesbecause it's, it's it's a
situation, and the situationsare different at different
times. Let me just tell thisreally quick little story that's
that's just so funny. A friendof mine, her daughter, went as
(44:17):
an exchange student to India,and she was living with a
family, and she came one day,and they gave her a room. She
spent the night, and she camedown for breakfast the next
morning, and the mother came upand she said, Are you okay? She
said, Yes, I'm fine. Why? Andshe said, I was so worried about
you. She said, why? She said,Because you were sleeping all by
(44:40):
yourself, and they just couldn'timagine somebody would be
comfortable. She said, Tonight,why don't you sleep with my son?
And my friend looked at her andshe said, in my country, I would
be arrested for doing somethinglike that. So here's a situation
where. One person, it was normaland actually comforting to
(45:05):
another person, it washorrifying in a way. So
everything has to be reassessed,and that's why the time out is
so important. Is this situationlike the last one? Is my dharma
going to take me into this? Oris this something that is not
really for me right now? So it'sthat constant assessing, which I
(45:29):
think, I think tires people out,and that's why they just say,
forget it. I'm just going to dowhatever feels right at the
moment, which is a good thing,but you have to have the
consciousness expansion tounderstand what is good at that
moment and at this moment, Ithink it's a good place to stop.
Kamala Rose (45:55):
Thank you.
Nischala, important points toconsider, yes, yes, yes, and
we'll look forward to seeing youall next time on a woman's Gita
podcast. Bye for now. Namaste.
Nischala Joy Devi (46:09):
Namaste. You.
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