February 16, 2025 • 54 mins
In this thought-provoking episode of A Woman's Gita Podcast, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose delve into the profound teachings of the Bhagavad Gita, exploring the nature of the self and the role of duty and dharma from a feminine perspective.
Topics discussed include:
- The elusive nature of understanding the self and the transformative power of deep meditation
- The mystical experience and its transcendence of traditional religious boundaries
- The four ashramas (stages of life) and the journey towards self-realization
- The ethical dilemmas of war and the concept of Kshatriya dharma (the duty of the warrior class)
- The feminine approach to ethics, emphasizing caregiving and nurturing over strict notions of justice
- Expanding the definition of motherhood and civic duty to include all women who care for others
- The broader implications of Kshatriya dharma, including the role of peacekeepers and emergency responders in modern society
- The importance of ethical reflection and the duty to contribute to the moral and ethical good in the world
Through their insightful dialogue, Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose offer a fresh and empowering perspective on the timeless wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita. They invite listeners to explore their own sense of purpose and responsibility in shaping a more compassionate world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:02):
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
nistula Joy, Davey and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:42):
Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita. I'm
nischay Joy Devi
Kamala Rose (00:48):
and I'm Kamala rose. Thank you for joining us
today.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:53):
Today we're going to begin with sloka 229 if
you remember, we've been talkingabout the various ways that we
see the world, and here we'rewe're moving back into the idea
(01:13):
of who is this self, what isthis Self, and how do we see it?
And 229 says. Some look on theself as a wonder. Some speak of
it as a wonder. Some hear of itas a wonder. Still others,
though hearing, do notunderstand it at all. To me, it
(01:38):
puts a smile on my face when Iread that because I think that
last part is really accurate, asmuch as we've tried over the
millennials to try tounderstand, what is the self?
What is God? What is the spirit?
What is any of it? I don't thinkmost of us have gotten very
(02:00):
close to it. So when they say,you don't, we don't understand
it at all. I think there's areal truth in that.
Kamala Rose (02:09):
I would agree with that mischla, I think, I think
this shloka, also taken from theUpanishads, is a is really a
remarkable summary of the wayhuman beings have encountered
this transcendent experiencethat we call self, we call soul.
(02:30):
We call divine, transcendentnature, innermost, whatever word
we have for this, we know thatwe look at it as a wonder,
something beyond ordinary,something that inspires awe in
us, right? So we can look atthat experience as something
(02:54):
marvelous and beyond theordinary. Sometimes we hear
people speak about it, and ourgreatest teachers have spoken
about it with eloquence.
Hopefully, we've we've done awe've taken our taken some good
words on it in the last couplepodcasts, to speak about this
wonder of the transcendent partof ourselves, right? Others hear
(03:18):
about it, from those who haveseen it, and still others, and
anyone who's ever dragged afriend to yoga class saying, you
just gotta try it. It's sogreat, even though hearing they
don't understand it at all.
Right, not everyone isinterested in this transcendent
(03:40):
goal. They can hear about it.
They don't care. They don't wantto know about it. Others say,
What are you talking about?
What's the big deal? What? Whatall of this attention in the
great beyond different ways ofexperiencing something that it's
difficult to put into words andsummarize succinctly,
Nischala Joy Devi (04:03):
I think that's one of the reasons that
we keep encouraging people asyoga, as yoga teachers, we keep
encouraging our students to gofor the deeper practices.
Because even if you touch thisplace for just a moment, you
will be forever changed. Youwill never doubt it again,
(04:24):
because you have had thatexperience of it, and it only
happens through deep meditation,and that's where we get our
awakening. So the craving forthe direct knowledge. And I
think Kamala, what you weresaying was so true. Most people
don't, aren't interested, andthis was such a shock to me,
(04:45):
because I've always beeninterested. And I would say to
someone, they say, Well, why doyou sit for so long? Why do you
do so much pranayama? Why do youdo this? Why do you do that? I
said, because I want thatexperience of the Self. I want
that realization. Yes. Andthey'd look at me, and they'd
say, why you have this wholephenomenon world available to
(05:07):
you with all this greatness? Whywould you want to do something
like that? And I would look atthem, and I think, Wow. I
thought everybody wanted this.
So when you when we see it likethis, and that's why it made me
laugh, because 5000 years ago,they knew that some don't care.
(05:28):
It took me a long, lot longer tofigure that out. But when you
see someone, when you meetsomeone, or even you experience
it yourself that really wantsthis like their hair is on fire.
They want it so much. This iswhere we get that. This is where
(05:48):
it comes from, that thatyearning, that that craving to
know and here we have it.
Kamala Rose (06:00):
I remember my first experience in what I could call
cosmic consciousness, or that,that that place of just ultimate
spaciousness where, you know, Ihad just a tremendous awakening
experience where it felt like Ihad at the disposal all of the
(06:24):
all of the answers to things,and it was so wonderful. And I
felt like it was what I hadalways been chasing, and all the
things that I had done, extremeexperiences and psychedelics
and, you know, risk takingthings like that. I had found
what I was looking for. And itis shocking when you realize
(06:48):
that everyone is not only arethey not consciously looking for
it, even when you tell themabout it, they don't seem to
care. They just say, That's sonice for you that you've had
that great sometimes it's almostthe opposite.
Nischala Joy Devi (07:04):
It's like, I don't want that. I don't want to
be have any part of that,because they realize that they
have to give up something to getthat. And most people don't want
to give up anything. So goingfor something that's so elusive,
so hard to catch and hold inyour hand, and yet they're
(07:26):
giving up other things. So Ithink the fact that they put
that in is just so brilliant,because many don't care. There's
many that don't care, and youum, I wonder why. That's what I
(07:46):
wonder, why? Why don't peoplecare? Why don't they want this?
It's them. It's not something onthe outside. But that's what
then they do, to make toplacate, to make them feel
better. They create something onthe outside that is not them,
and that's easier to understandas a high being, like the saints
(08:11):
and sages, etc. But they're justlike us. The only thing is, they
remember who they are, and wedon't. That's it again.
Kamala Rose (08:21):
We're on the mystical which is another
octave. It's another octave fromreligion, not the same as being
a devout participant in anyreligious faith. Mystical
experience transcends religion.
It can happen spontaneously. Itcan happen through practice, and
it does not fit into the rules,especially of religion. This
(08:45):
idea of a self as an eternalnature is, I think, being really
emphasized here at the beginningof Krishnas dialog with Arjuna,
because, you know, we're gettingthe idea of a an ultimate goal,
a place or a space that is ourtrue identity, that is beyond
(09:09):
anything that we currently know.
Like you said, nishilla, peoplereally do put up constructs
around them that you know,whether that's personality and
career and the roles that weplay in the world, and that can
be our religious participationas well, right where we just
(09:32):
find a way of of living a good,comfortable life. But again,
this is, I think the idea herein the Gita is of a jivan Mukta,
of someone who is who isexperiencing this while alive.
So generally, in Christianity,we think about this type of
(09:54):
mystical experience as happeningwhen you die. Yes, right, and
this is very much the subject.
That we're talking about whetheror not to kill these warriors on
the battlefield, and thateveryone present will will pass
away. So we're dealing a lotwith the reality of life and
death. So this idea of the theself that is very much the
(10:15):
subject of the those very thoseesoteric Upanishads, again, the
Gita is bringing this forwardand saying, This is the goal.
This is the thing to be known.
And this can be done while youare here, while you are alive.
You can become someone who isliterally freed alive, and live
(10:38):
your life in that awareness,which makes this pretty
groundbreaking theology, alittle a little, I think, some,
some important shades differentthan Christianity. And
Nischala Joy Devi (10:55):
you're saying, Yeah, I was gonna say
it's definitely more empowering.
Yes, up to us now throughpractice. Yeah, it's not someone
that's judging us and decidingwhether we deserve it. This is
something that we weaccomplished through practice as
we're sloughing off thedifferent layers, getting to
that true self. Sorry, that's so
Kamala Rose (11:20):
important that just emphasizing that, as we have
been today, about the importanceof practice and the purpose of
this and is to is to realize theSelf, and yoga brings us that
direct experience which reallysets it apart.
Nischala Joy Devi (11:39):
You know, I think it's also interesting, and
you probably have experiencedthis also having been a
monastic, that when people foundout that I was a monastic, they
would say, oh, that's what Iwant to do. I just want to I
just want to leave everythingbehind and go into a an ashram
or a monastery for a couple ofyears and just meditate. And
(12:03):
then they start talking to meabout it, and they realize what
it is, what that means. Thatmeans renouncing your whole life
that you have put together formany, many years, your family,
your what, who you think youare, and you're donning a
another personality, anotherpersona that now only wants one
(12:29):
thing, and that's realization ofthe Self. Everything else is
around it to help, the KarmaYoga, the meditation, the
asanas, the anything else it butthat's the goal. And when I say
that to them, they say, Oh, Idon't think I'm ready for that,
right? They always say that, andit makes me smile again like
(12:54):
this, because what's it going totake to get ready? Paramahamsa
Yogananda had a beautiful quote.
He said to me, he said, Don'tcome to me in the winter of your
life if you haven't been therein the springtime. And at first,
I thought that was a littleharsh, you know, what does that
(13:16):
mean? He doesn't care. Hedoesn't want to take people and
as disciples, has nothing to dowith that. It's the length of
time, of practice, thededication over years, and your
life is changing when maybe whenyou started, you had small
children now they're in highschool. Your things on the
outside have changed, but youhaven't changed, and your
(13:40):
practice has to change. And Ithink this is really what
they're trying to say. Here isstay focused on that which never
changes, because everything elsewill change. Bring heartache or
joy, but something will change.
Kamala Rose (14:03):
We're lucky if we have experienced this when we're
young, because then it even if,even if, one does not become a
monastic. I was 23 when I becamea novice, and spent many years
as a few years as a novice, andthen, right? Just, you know,
dealing with, dealing withletting go of so many of the
(14:26):
outer things, right? It takestime you don't just, you know,
walk out, you know, you have tohandle that. And it's lucky if
we find this insight early,because it can inform the
choices that we make throughoutour lives, whether, whether we
become a monastic or we take upa dedicated daily practice, and,
(14:52):
you know, the inspiration, thecause, the the why of of so many
of the choice. Choices that wemake again in the monastery or
out of the monastery were we'replacing a priority on a rare,
rarefied experience, yes, andthen by the time we're into the
(15:14):
later parts of our lives, we maybe very ready. You know, the the
four ashrama system in in Indiareally speaks of that of having
a time in your life where youare gaining and you're creating
and you're making, you're makingfamily and career, right? How
(15:35):
wonderful to have that insightinto who you really are as
you're doing that as you'rebuilding a life here in the
world, and then when you'reolder and time to stop making
things and start letting go ofthings. We're ready and we can
let go and continue to let gountil only the self remains
(15:59):
absolutely what a wonderfulgoal.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:02):
It Well, it is. It makes sense. It makes
sense. I think the other thingthat I always have to remind
people is going into a conventor a Ashram is not an escape.
Another quote by ParamahamsaYogananda, he said, the ashram
(16:23):
will protect you from the world.
But who will protect you fromthe ashram? Because they're not
saints in there. They're justpeople trying to do their best
to get themselves a little bitof a higher consciousness. So
it's a very different kind ofthing. It's not an escape, and
(16:43):
that's for sure. I think alsowhen we talk about the four
ashramas, I just like to namethem for people, in case they're
not familiar. But the first isBrahmacharya. And Brahmacharya
is what we consider the studentphase. And this is the phase
where you're gatheringinformation. You're in school,
(17:03):
you're gathering, you haveteachers, you're gathering
information to figure out whatyou want to do in your life. And
then you enter into andgenerally, there are 25 year
cycles, so zero to 25 and then25 to 50, you would take a
partner, you'd have a career ora job, and you'd start making
(17:24):
money, raising a family, etc,etc. And then you enter into the
vanaprastha stage, where thechildren are older. You then
turn more towards spiritual sosay you do 5050, your 50% work,
50% spirituality, and then youfinally come to sannyas, which
(17:45):
is total renunciation of theworld. To me, there's a very
there's a lot of similaritiesbetween the first, the
Brahmacharya and the Sannyas.
Matter of fact, when we tookvows, my first vow was
Brahmacharya vows. We took vowsas it became became brahmachari
(18:09):
and and then we took our finalvows. We took Sannyas. So it's
almost like the brahmacharistages. I'm going to try this
and see what it's like todedicate my life to my spiritual
growth and development. But I'malso internally smiling because
it looks, it seems like Kamalaand you and I did it a little
(18:33):
bit out of order too, and whichhappens in the in the more
modern times, we don't followquite the same and we're also in
a very different culture. Butvery few have that real monastic
opportunity, because we don'thave to think about what we eat,
(18:55):
what we wear, where we're goingto sleep, what we're going to
do, everything is decided, whichtakes the pressure away and
allows us to focus on ourmeditation people. Someone who
has three children and iskeeping down two jobs doesn't
have that luxury, and I thinkthis is what we have to let them
(19:16):
know, is you can focus on thatpart even in the midst of your
job, you don't have to renouncethe world for it.
Kamala Rose (19:26):
This is the Gita strength, yeah, speaking to,
speaking to Arjuna here on anobviously a very important day
for him, but nonetheless, he'sspeaking to him in his capacity
at work, essentially in theworld. Yeah, this is work. He's
(19:46):
teaching him about yoga at hisjob. And he's telling him as we
as he started the dialog. Hesaid, change the way you see,
right? Change the way you see.
This. You. Seeing a bunch ofpeople that you believe are in
this drama as it's unfolding. Imean, what if we talk to
(20:06):
ourselves when we're at worklike this, and just said, you
know, we see this like greatbattle between, you know, the
cool people and, you know, tempwork, or whatever it is that
whatever the dynamic is. But thepoint is that we believe it to
be so real that drama, webelieve every bit of it, and
have a hard time taking a stepback and seeing that these
(20:31):
people will go home at the endof the day to their lives and
interact with their families andthe places where they live. And
you know all of this willchange. These people will live
their lives, and when theirlives are over, they'll pass
away. That person is temporary,that body is temporary. Yet all
of us have the self as theindweller. In verse 30, the self
(20:57):
is the indweller of all beings,and it never dies. Therefore,
it's not necessary to grieve foranyone. If we brought this
awareness into all of thecorners of our lives and saw
that each person, whether we seethem as a mentor or someone who
(21:18):
should be respected or veneratedin some way you know, a close
peer, a friend that we have aloving relationship with, the
countless strangers that weinteract with every day, and
even people that get on ournerves we find irritating
difficult to work with, and evenpeople who we find find no love
(21:41):
whatsoever for the self is theindweller in all beings. This is
really the basis of the metaprayer to look on all beings
with the eyes of an inherentequality and equanimity. And
(22:02):
when we do this, I think itteaches our hearts to expand, to
include those who we would wemight shut out of our hearts,
but it requires a shift inperspective, and that's really,
I think, what Krishna isteaching here is change the way
(22:24):
you see it, whatever you are,whatever scenario, whatever
drama is unfolding in your life,just like this drama for Arjuna
to see with The eyes ofspiritual vision is to see the
inherent unity in all things andthe temporary nature that
(22:46):
clothes it as the dramas that weexperience as everyday life.
Nischala Joy Devi (22:55):
Swami Vivekananda being a both a great
Yani and a great bhakti. At thesame time, he was a poet, and he
wrote many extraordinary poems,and the line from one of them
fits right in here. He says tothose that lowly creep, I am the
(23:19):
self and all. And I think everytime I see a bug crawling, I
think of that because we tend tocompartmentalize, and we think
only those with two legs orthree legs or whatever it is,
are the best. And we have torealize that that spirit is
(23:40):
everywhere, everywhere. It's alittle bit sometimes, and I
think this happens probably morewhen we're younger, but to a
certain extent, also, you have ateacher in school, say, you're
in third grade, and you see thatteacher only in the classroom.
(24:01):
That's that's your whole view ofthat teacher. And then on
Saturday, your mother took youto the supermarket, and in walks
that teacher, and you'reshocked. How can you be here?
You belong in the classroom.
This isn't the place for you.
And I think this is what alsohappens with the spirit and the
divine, we think it only belongsin church or temple or synagogue
(24:26):
or wherever, and that once wewalk out, it has nothing to do
with us. Whereas every grocerystore we go into, every gas
station, every clothing store,everywhere we walk in and
there's the divine right infront of us, whether it's at the
cashier, whether it's it'sgetting stocking or cutting some
(24:51):
tofu for us, or whatever it is.
So we tend to be verycompartmentalized and very
small. In our thinking, and whatthe Gita is asking us to do is
expand past those boundaries. Gobeyond that. Don't just see them
in a place that's a good start.
(25:16):
They're in this this deity,they're in this form. That's a
good start, but don't leave itthere. Keep it going. See it
everywhere that you look. Thenwhen we go back to that same
sloka, it becomes verydifferent. We suddenly
understand it. We may not beable to articulate it, because
(25:40):
it's not really in words, but wehave the feeling this is someone
who also has a divine in them,and then it starts to go out
exponentially. So it startssimple, and it goes out from
there, and also the power ofother people around you that
remind you, and that's why, tome, I love what we're doing with
(26:04):
this, because it really helpspeople to understand there's
other ways of looking at theBhagavad Gita and taking it into
your life,
Kamala Rose (26:14):
absolutely, especially this next section.
We're at 231 now for you being awarrior from the kshetra class,
Arjuna, this is your duty, forthere is nothing higher than a
righteous war. Happy indeed arethe Kshatriyas being called to
battle. It is their way. Oh, itis their way to open the gate to
(26:39):
heaven, right? So we're gettingthis. We've been having this
wonderful dialog about theeternal nature of the self, and
we're back to this, this dialogon the battle of krushetra and
how important it is that Arjunadoes his duty. And I know in
(27:02):
reading the Gita over the years,it always kind of comes as a
shock when we've been we've beenkind of out in the stratosphere,
considering the transcendent,and we're back to the
battlefield.
Nischala Joy Devi (27:22):
Go ahead. In a way, it's not unusual, because
I think of that expression thatsays, The Hand That Rocks the
Cradle rules the world. So it'salmost like he gave him this
very high ideal of the self andthe expansion of it, and that's
(27:45):
being held in one hand, and thenhe's moving back to the kshatri
Dharma on the other hand. So Ithink he's sort of doing a push
me, pull me, because,
Kamala Rose (27:59):
and I think as teachers, we sometimes do this
when it seems to be getting toodeep for a student, or you start
to see their eyes go in circles,you switch to something. Okay,
let's stand up and stretchright, or let's take a deep
breath, or something. So that,to me, is what he's doing here.
He got them to one point, andnow he's back to this is your
(28:22):
dharma. Maybe it's not right,but that's how I see it. No, I
think you're I think you'reabsolutely right. And think he's
reminding him that, you know,we've paused this battle, and
here we are on we are here inthe battlefield, and Arjuna, I
think it's very much associated,right? He's showing them. Now
(28:42):
for you, how you would realizethis eternal nature is by doing
your duty. Yes, this is exactly.
This is an Indian idea. We justthis is not, this is not a
component of Christianity, thesame way it is as as it is here
in the Gita. By doing his duty,by being a warrior of the
(29:03):
kshetra class. He says, There'snothing higher than a righteous
war, right? For any warriorwho's called into such a
righteous battle, it's the theheavens are opening wide, right?
So this is like. This is likethe Vikings in their quest for
Valhalla. This is the kshetrawarriors and the promise of the
(29:27):
svarga loka of going to thishighest heaven. This, this
wonderful happy place wheretheir ancestors live, right? A
place where they are rewardedfor their efforts, right? So
(29:49):
it's it's making this battle ofkrushetra into that kind of
scenario for this kind of. Aperson, Krishna is saying that
this Dharma that you're doingright now actually has the
potential to produce the resultsthat I'm talking about with this
eternal self, right? So I thinkwhile there certainly is a
(30:16):
connection, I think it'simportant as modern students to
recognize that there's aconnection here. I think it's
also appropriate for us to, youknow, to feel a little distance
from the language and a littledifferent difficulty and
understanding. If you're not asoldier. How would that apply to
(30:37):
me? Right? How does that applyin current times? Because
reconciling a righteous war withthe path of yoga is one of the
conundrums that we come to withthe Gita that we've talked about
so much. I'll just read the restof this, and we can just discuss
(31:00):
it all together. He says, If youabandon your duty, you will lose
honor, name and fame. All peoplewill speak of your dishonor, and
to one who's honored, dishonoris worse than mortality.
Moreover, those from whom youreceived honor would think that
(31:22):
you turned away from the battleout of fear and regard you with
little respect hereafter, right?
So he's talking about hislegacy. Your enemies belittle
your ability in various waysspeak words of ill fame and
shame about you. What is morepainful than this? If you're
(31:45):
killed in the battle, you'll goto heaven. If you win, you'll
enjoy the earth. Thereforearise. Resolve to fight, having
an equal mind in pain andpleasure, gain and loss, victory
and defeat engage in battle, andthereby you will not incur
(32:06):
karma, right? So we've got awhole section here that is
really speaking to this sense ofduty.
Nischala Joy Devi (32:19):
But I'm looking at this and I'm feeling
a little bit of the Trickster inKrishna, in that he he's pulling
away from the original reasonfor this battle, and the the
(32:41):
land dispute, etc. And what he'sdoing, at least in my
estimation, he's moving him intoa whole other aspect of knowing
himself, the self. So he's usingthe battle, which was originally
done because of this war, ofthis sorry land dispute. And now
(33:05):
he's saying, if you do this, youwill now know yourself. So I
think it's kind of a bait andswitch, because I think if he
offered this to Arjuna, ifKrishna offered this to Arjuna
in the beginning, like that, hemight have said, No. He said,
This is a land dispute. This hasnothing to do with this. But I
(33:28):
see that if Krishna allows himto know him, allows Arjuna to
know himself, then all thisbecomes superfluous. In a way,
he knows what his duty is. Heknows what he's supposed to do.
So to me, that's how I see it isa little bit of a trick, and
trying to get him to do thebattle knowing that he's going
(33:52):
to realize himself when he doesthat.
Kamala Rose (33:55):
So the path to realize himself?
Nischala Joy Devi (33:57):
Yeah, exactly. So to me, that's it's I
smile when I read it, because tome, it's a little bit of a humor
in it. Yeah, here do this andyeah, you'll get your land back,
but you're going to get muchmore than your land back. You're
going to get knowing to knowyourself. So that's how I see
(34:18):
this, as a little bit off thethe main path in that way, and
it makes me laugh. One otherthing I wanted to say, I think
Christianity did have this. Theyhad the Crusades, yes, and we, I
(34:39):
don't want to get into thehistory of the Crusades, because
our time is limited. But I thinkthere's, there's a certain way
when a religion is being builtor being sustained that that
people feel that you need. Toprotect it in some way. So to
(35:03):
me, it's it's it's along thoselines. And again, because it
started out with a land dispute,and now it's traversing into
something that's a spiritualpractice, a spiritual path, a
spiritual realization,
Kamala Rose (35:23):
yeah, yes. And all that we're reading here are,
it's a it's like a condensedversion of kshetra dharma. And
as you said, Arjuna knows whathis duty is. He knows that he is
there, as you know, first andforemost for kshetra warrior
(35:46):
would be to keep the peace willbe, and every effort was made to
keep the peace in thissituation, it was only at the
very last moment that war becameinevitable, and that was because
the Coronavirus were going tofight regardless if the Pandavas
showed up, right? They weregoing to take them down. So
(36:08):
we're again, we're seeing this,this dialog about the ethics of
warfare when it would beappropriate for kings and such
people who are in that whofunction that way in society, as
rulers, as managers, asgovernors, as police, as
(36:28):
military. I get a chance to seewhere I live in the mountains.
We all. We have firefighters. Wehave Forest Service who are
around we, I've met a lot offemale workers, right? There's
so many of these, theseessential emergency services and
(36:52):
peacekeeping services that arethe Army Corps of Engineers and
maintaining infrastructure,right, right? Right? And this
is, you know, I see the duty inthis, and the the pride in this
type of work to, you know, keepkeep the people safe. And this
is really what the kshetraDharma centers around, keeping
(37:16):
the people safe, protecting theland, keeping safety so that
people can thrive and live. Theywere also concerned with the
administration of justice, rightwhen decisions were made,
mediations were done, and Ithink this plays a lot into the
(37:39):
story of the Bhagavad Gita iswe're continually coming back to
the idea that this is that it'sthe right thing justice as a,
you know, as a cultural andcivic imperative, that things
remain balanced when wrongdoinghappens, there has to be
(38:03):
appropriate punishment for thatright, and that falls on someone
to do that, and that was theKshatriya war warriors and or
this whole class, which is a lotmore than warriors, as we have
talked about before, it's notjust military people. There's a
lot of jobs in this, but any waythat there is, decisions have to
(38:30):
be made for the welfare ofeveryone. I think this is,
again, what we're what we'relooking at. You know, in that
honor is the most importantthing, right? So Krishna is
addressing that by saying, Ifyou abandon your duty, you will
lose honor. You'll lose your thestanding of your good name to
(38:51):
all these people who respect youand who doesn't feel that, who
doesn't feel you know the fearof losing your good name, being
ostracized, right, losing yourreputation. I mean, who doesn't
feel that that would be a hugeloss for one who's honored
(39:15):
dishonor, to lose one'sreputation and to be thought of
as contrary to who you are. Ican't think I agree. I think
that would be a worse than deathto be, you know, to be
(39:36):
considered a poser or youweren't. You weren't real, you
lied, you were dishonorable, youwent against your word. And I
think that's what he's what he'sbringing up here.
Nischala Joy Devi (39:49):
I think that happens on a regular basis, and
I'm not sure that can bestopped. The only thing that can
stop it is. If you know who youare. And I think it all goes
back to that people can call youwhatever they want, but if you
really know and you knowyourself, it doesn't affect you
(40:13):
in the same way. And this soagain, I think there's two
there's at least two layersprobably more going through
whatever he's saying. It alsohas another meaning here. And so
this is something that, when Ithink of the honor and that
(40:36):
whole idea, I really I think ofa courtroom, because in the
courtroom, there has to be that.
There's that honor the the judgeis plays God in a certain way in
the courtroom, and we have tostand up when they come into the
room. We stand up when theyleave the room. Their word is
law. You go against them, youget put in jail. So here we are
(41:00):
again looking at this idea ofhonor and looking at this idea
of justice, because they can'tbe fighting the whole time.
There's not wars going onconstantly, at least in this
stage of history. So after thewar, they do become what you
(41:20):
were talking about, thepeacekeepers, the ones that if
something happens to you, who doyou call? Well, we all know we
call a number, and when we callthat number, someone comes to
help us. Well, who are thosepeople? They've given their life
to the service of helping otherpeople. So this K shotra Dharma
(41:41):
that we're talking about, Ithink we have to get off the
idea that it's only soldiers andonly war, and see them as living
among us and helping,protecting, yeah, and and
protecting against fire andpolice and and firefighters and
(42:01):
all these services that we wereally take for granted until
you need that, and when you needit, you really want someone
there. So I think it's helpfulto really expand that, that idea
of what they do, because we'relooking at a sliver of what they
(42:23):
do, and this is because we'refocusing on this war that comes
from the Mahabharata. But inactuality, it's a very small
time, and the war will be over.
What do they do then? Then theyhave to keep their honor, and
(42:44):
they have to keep theirintegrity to then do
peacekeeping. So it all makessense when you look at it
bigger, when you stay small, itdoesn't always make sense, but
to go bigger, it makes sense,
Kamala Rose (43:01):
truly. And I think it's also worth mentioning here
that justice and the performanceof Justice, the you know, the
the fight, the Preserve,preservation of justice. These
are, let's see how to say it,right? When, when we, when we
(43:25):
look at big stories like this,right? That are teaching stories
we have in this story justice iswhy it's the pinnacle, it's what
we're fighting for, right? Butthere have been many, there have
been many feminist philosopherswho have you have taken a look
(43:47):
at some of these, these storiesthat have been used to teach us
culturally, and have found thatjustice is not necessarily the
the ethical measurement forwomen, right? We but as women,
we may feel that we may verymuch resonate with justice. May
(44:12):
say, you know, I know exactlythe right thing to do, and it's
important for me to do that. Butsome feminist philosophers like
Carol Gilligan really questionedwhether women resonated with
justice as our like in in thepurposeful sense of ourselves.
(44:32):
She found that among women andfor women, our highest ethical
metric was our ability to carejust to take care of right? So
it's almost like, if we rereadthis from a feminist a feminine
lens, we would be looking at itand saying, if you choose not to
(44:57):
help, and. And and help thosepeople who need you, it would be
like walking away from, youknow, the good feelings that
people have towards you, therespect that you've earned from
a hard the hard work that you'vedone throughout your life,
right? I think if we reframe itfor ourselves with, I don't want
(45:22):
to put all women into a box andsay that, you know, men, men
are, men are the Justice Leagueand women are the caregivers. I
think that's too binary for us.
I think, yeah, I think we're allin shades in between. And I
don't want to reduce women tojust being the caregivers and
the cooks and the baby makers?
Unknown (45:44):
No, I don't think they are. I think when, but I
Kamala Rose (45:47):
think it's, it does bring a little light in there
that, yeah, we do have a metric.
And I think as as women, it'snot, it's, it's not, uh, you
know, it's not subjugating usculturally by acknowledging that
we are caregivers, and I thinkby nature, if we can lean into
(46:08):
that part of who we are and seethe validity of it, and see that
this is So much of how weexpress our ethical framework.
Nischala Joy Devi (46:23):
Yeah. So a couple things that you said that
I just wanted to comment on,because I think you're
absolutely right on in thesepoints when we look at what we
as women do. And one of thethings where we raise children,
we raise children, and that'swhere I think our justice comes
(46:46):
in, because your your childcomes home with a black eye.
What do you do? Right? So youyou get the other person that
may look better or worse thanyour son and perhaps even their
parents and you, you havejustice. You act as a judge at
(47:07):
that point, you say, whathappened? Who did this? Can you
apologize to her? Can you he?
You apologize to him? So I thinkmothers have that role. We have
to, we have to be neutral andteach the children. And that's
where this comes in. Again, thisthis idea of kshatra Dharma also
(47:30):
probably, and it's changed now,but nursing, which came about in
the 1800s with FlorenceNightingale basically comes from
the word nurture. So when wenurture, when we nurse, someone,
which is has always,traditionally, up till recently,
(47:52):
been a woman's role, you don'tdiscriminate. I remember when I
worked in the hospital, if acriminal came in, even in
handcuffs, you treated themexactly the same as if a
millionaire came in paying allkinds of money. And I to me, it
(48:12):
goes back to this same we don'tcall it kshatra Dharma, but this
is the idea of it, that we'rehere to do justice. We're here
to be caring. That's our nature.
And when we look at someone andmaybe they're a rapist, and I
(48:36):
still have to go in there andtake their blood pressure and
give them something to get themout of their pain, where what I
would maybe like to do is letthem sit with their pain,
because they cause some otherpeople pain. But we can't do
that as health professionals. Wehave to put that aside and walk
in there and serve them, andhopefully with an open heart,
(49:00):
because what we're looking at isnot them as a criminal. We're
looking them as an aspect of theDivine Self. So all this comes
together, and then again, I feellike that. The war, the idea is
just a jump off place for goingto this. This depth of knowing
(49:21):
who we are is one way to getthere, one path to get there.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, withouthatred. So it's not simple. It's
not simple. And I think, andthat's what the idea of a
scripture is. You don't justpick it up and start on page one
and reach page 470 and say, Oh,that was a great book. And you
(49:42):
close it and put it back on theshelf. This is something that we
use to live our lives by. Andeach time you go to it, you read
it, you understand it in alittle bit deeper level, because
you have changed. You havemeditated or even. Taking a
sloka and use that as the objectof your meditation.
Kamala Rose (50:05):
And I think these, these ones, are asking us to
look at our ethical matrix.
Yeah, and even if it's a littleforeign to us as Westerners, I
think it's important that we areable to investigate and ask
ourselves, especially as women,where do you feel a sense of
duty in the world? I mean,certainly if we've been blessed
(50:30):
with children and always have aresponsibility over our
children, but many of us are notcalled to be mothers, and that
is, again, it would be a shameto reduce all women to a single
role. Right? We find our senseof duty and our sense of
belonging in the world in somany ways, and I know as a yoga
(50:52):
teacher, I feel an incrediblesense of caring about the
tradition, and I feel atremendous sense of caring about
my students and and and thatkeeps me going in the way I
think these verses are beingaddressed to Arjuna that I have
(51:14):
a duty to do this. I have I knowin my small town, I'm, that's my
niche that I fit into. I'm, I'mthat person people can rely on
me for that job, and I get upevery day without, with no
reservation. I love going to myjob and and sharing yoga with
people, right? So I think aswomen, we have to, we have to
(51:41):
dig a little deeper toreinterpret these verses for
ourselves and discover what is.
What is my dharma as a modernwestern woman? Where do I feel a
sense of duty towards my civicsociety, towards my town, my
city, my state, my country, myworld. You know the people
(52:05):
around me, how am I making theworld a better place? How am I
helping to uplift others andpreserve a sense of moral and
ethical good in the world?
Nischala Joy Devi (52:20):
I think also we need to expand our vision of
what a mother is. I think aswomen, whether we have
physically given birth or not,we are engineered for that, and
in that engineering, that'sthat's how we become the
caregivers. That's how we becomethe nurses and now the doctors
(52:43):
and the fire fighters and thepolice and all that, expanding
and knowing that no one is astranger to us. Every child is
our child, and we're everybody'smother at the same time, in the
in the the expanded sense of theword, I'm not talking about
(53:06):
wiping their noses and makingsure they're wearing a coat, but
really helping them to movethrough the world with wisdom
and integrity. I think that's aduty, that's a duty.
Kamala Rose (53:20):
And I think there's a great duty to see more women
carrying caring forcorporations, yes and world,
caring for the world, and caringas leaders in our government,
and caring in academia withtheir PhDs, and bringing a
feminine perspective into all ofthe spheres of life.
Nischala Joy Devi (53:42):
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I think we've
come to the end of a veryinteresting session today. I
Kamala Rose (53:50):
thought, I am you all for joining us today?
Nischala Joy Devi (53:53):
Just for everyone. Just be aware of your
role in the world. How do youmove through how do you act in
the world? Who are you? Justthink about it until next time
this has been a woman's Gita,
Kamala Rose (54:10):
Namaste. Namaste.
Unknown (54:14):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with
nishtula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a woman's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(54:38):
Namaste. You.
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
nistula Joy, Davey and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:42):
Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita. I'm
nischay Joy Devi
Kamala Rose (00:48):
and I'm Kamala rose. Thank you for joining us
today.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:53):
Today we're going to begin with sloka 229 if
you remember, we've been talkingabout the various ways that we
see the world, and here we'rewe're moving back into the idea
(01:13):
of who is this self, what isthis Self, and how do we see it?
And 229 says. Some look on theself as a wonder. Some speak of
it as a wonder. Some hear of itas a wonder. Still others,
though hearing, do notunderstand it at all. To me, it
(01:38):
puts a smile on my face when Iread that because I think that
last part is really accurate, asmuch as we've tried over the
millennials to try tounderstand, what is the self?
What is God? What is the spirit?
What is any of it? I don't thinkmost of us have gotten very
(02:00):
close to it. So when they say,you don't, we don't understand
it at all. I think there's areal truth in that.
Kamala Rose (02:09):
I would agree with that mischla, I think, I think
this shloka, also taken from theUpanishads, is a is really a
remarkable summary of the wayhuman beings have encountered
this transcendent experiencethat we call self, we call soul.
(02:30):
We call divine, transcendentnature, innermost, whatever word
we have for this, we know thatwe look at it as a wonder,
something beyond ordinary,something that inspires awe in
us, right? So we can look atthat experience as something
(02:54):
marvelous and beyond theordinary. Sometimes we hear
people speak about it, and ourgreatest teachers have spoken
about it with eloquence.
Hopefully, we've we've done awe've taken our taken some good
words on it in the last couplepodcasts, to speak about this
wonder of the transcendent partof ourselves, right? Others hear
(03:18):
about it, from those who haveseen it, and still others, and
anyone who's ever dragged afriend to yoga class saying, you
just gotta try it. It's sogreat, even though hearing they
don't understand it at all.
Right, not everyone isinterested in this transcendent
(03:40):
goal. They can hear about it.
They don't care. They don't wantto know about it. Others say,
What are you talking about?
What's the big deal? What? Whatall of this attention in the
great beyond different ways ofexperiencing something that it's
difficult to put into words andsummarize succinctly,
Nischala Joy Devi (04:03):
I think that's one of the reasons that
we keep encouraging people asyoga, as yoga teachers, we keep
encouraging our students to gofor the deeper practices.
Because even if you touch thisplace for just a moment, you
will be forever changed. Youwill never doubt it again,
(04:24):
because you have had thatexperience of it, and it only
happens through deep meditation,and that's where we get our
awakening. So the craving forthe direct knowledge. And I
think Kamala, what you weresaying was so true. Most people
don't, aren't interested, andthis was such a shock to me,
(04:45):
because I've always beeninterested. And I would say to
someone, they say, Well, why doyou sit for so long? Why do you
do so much pranayama? Why do youdo this? Why do you do that? I
said, because I want thatexperience of the Self. I want
that realization. Yes. Andthey'd look at me, and they'd
say, why you have this wholephenomenon world available to
(05:07):
you with all this greatness? Whywould you want to do something
like that? And I would look atthem, and I think, Wow. I
thought everybody wanted this.
So when you when we see it likethis, and that's why it made me
laugh, because 5000 years ago,they knew that some don't care.
(05:28):
It took me a long, lot longer tofigure that out. But when you
see someone, when you meetsomeone, or even you experience
it yourself that really wantsthis like their hair is on fire.
They want it so much. This iswhere we get that. This is where
(05:48):
it comes from, that thatyearning, that that craving to
know and here we have it.
Kamala Rose (06:00):
I remember my first experience in what I could call
cosmic consciousness, or that,that that place of just ultimate
spaciousness where, you know, Ihad just a tremendous awakening
experience where it felt like Ihad at the disposal all of the
(06:24):
all of the answers to things,and it was so wonderful. And I
felt like it was what I hadalways been chasing, and all the
things that I had done, extremeexperiences and psychedelics
and, you know, risk takingthings like that. I had found
what I was looking for. And itis shocking when you realize
(06:48):
that everyone is not only arethey not consciously looking for
it, even when you tell themabout it, they don't seem to
care. They just say, That's sonice for you that you've had
that great sometimes it's almostthe opposite.
Nischala Joy Devi (07:04):
It's like, I don't want that. I don't want to
be have any part of that,because they realize that they
have to give up something to getthat. And most people don't want
to give up anything. So goingfor something that's so elusive,
so hard to catch and hold inyour hand, and yet they're
(07:26):
giving up other things. So Ithink the fact that they put
that in is just so brilliant,because many don't care. There's
many that don't care, and youum, I wonder why. That's what I
(07:46):
wonder, why? Why don't peoplecare? Why don't they want this?
It's them. It's not something onthe outside. But that's what
then they do, to make toplacate, to make them feel
better. They create something onthe outside that is not them,
and that's easier to understandas a high being, like the saints
(08:11):
and sages, etc. But they're justlike us. The only thing is, they
remember who they are, and wedon't. That's it again.
Kamala Rose (08:21):
We're on the mystical which is another
octave. It's another octave fromreligion, not the same as being
a devout participant in anyreligious faith. Mystical
experience transcends religion.
It can happen spontaneously. Itcan happen through practice, and
it does not fit into the rules,especially of religion. This
(08:45):
idea of a self as an eternalnature is, I think, being really
emphasized here at the beginningof Krishnas dialog with Arjuna,
because, you know, we're gettingthe idea of a an ultimate goal,
a place or a space that is ourtrue identity, that is beyond
(09:09):
anything that we currently know.
Like you said, nishilla, peoplereally do put up constructs
around them that you know,whether that's personality and
career and the roles that weplay in the world, and that can
be our religious participationas well, right where we just
(09:32):
find a way of of living a good,comfortable life. But again,
this is, I think the idea herein the Gita is of a jivan Mukta,
of someone who is who isexperiencing this while alive.
So generally, in Christianity,we think about this type of
(09:54):
mystical experience as happeningwhen you die. Yes, right, and
this is very much the subject.
That we're talking about whetheror not to kill these warriors on
the battlefield, and thateveryone present will will pass
away. So we're dealing a lotwith the reality of life and
death. So this idea of the theself that is very much the
(10:15):
subject of the those very thoseesoteric Upanishads, again, the
Gita is bringing this forwardand saying, This is the goal.
This is the thing to be known.
And this can be done while youare here, while you are alive.
You can become someone who isliterally freed alive, and live
(10:38):
your life in that awareness,which makes this pretty
groundbreaking theology, alittle a little, I think, some,
some important shades differentthan Christianity. And
Nischala Joy Devi (10:55):
you're saying, Yeah, I was gonna say
it's definitely more empowering.
Yes, up to us now throughpractice. Yeah, it's not someone
that's judging us and decidingwhether we deserve it. This is
something that we weaccomplished through practice as
we're sloughing off thedifferent layers, getting to
that true self. Sorry, that's so
Kamala Rose (11:20):
important that just emphasizing that, as we have
been today, about the importanceof practice and the purpose of
this and is to is to realize theSelf, and yoga brings us that
direct experience which reallysets it apart.
Nischala Joy Devi (11:39):
You know, I think it's also interesting, and
you probably have experiencedthis also having been a
monastic, that when people foundout that I was a monastic, they
would say, oh, that's what Iwant to do. I just want to I
just want to leave everythingbehind and go into a an ashram
or a monastery for a couple ofyears and just meditate. And
(12:03):
then they start talking to meabout it, and they realize what
it is, what that means. Thatmeans renouncing your whole life
that you have put together formany, many years, your family,
your what, who you think youare, and you're donning a
another personality, anotherpersona that now only wants one
(12:29):
thing, and that's realization ofthe Self. Everything else is
around it to help, the KarmaYoga, the meditation, the
asanas, the anything else it butthat's the goal. And when I say
that to them, they say, Oh, Idon't think I'm ready for that,
right? They always say that, andit makes me smile again like
(12:54):
this, because what's it going totake to get ready? Paramahamsa
Yogananda had a beautiful quote.
He said to me, he said, Don'tcome to me in the winter of your
life if you haven't been therein the springtime. And at first,
I thought that was a littleharsh, you know, what does that
(13:16):
mean? He doesn't care. Hedoesn't want to take people and
as disciples, has nothing to dowith that. It's the length of
time, of practice, thededication over years, and your
life is changing when maybe whenyou started, you had small
children now they're in highschool. Your things on the
outside have changed, but youhaven't changed, and your
(13:40):
practice has to change. And Ithink this is really what
they're trying to say. Here isstay focused on that which never
changes, because everything elsewill change. Bring heartache or
joy, but something will change.
Kamala Rose (14:03):
We're lucky if we have experienced this when we're
young, because then it even if,even if, one does not become a
monastic. I was 23 when I becamea novice, and spent many years
as a few years as a novice, andthen, right? Just, you know,
dealing with, dealing withletting go of so many of the
(14:26):
outer things, right? It takestime you don't just, you know,
walk out, you know, you have tohandle that. And it's lucky if
we find this insight early,because it can inform the
choices that we make throughoutour lives, whether, whether we
become a monastic or we take upa dedicated daily practice, and,
(14:52):
you know, the inspiration, thecause, the the why of of so many
of the choice. Choices that wemake again in the monastery or
out of the monastery were we'replacing a priority on a rare,
rarefied experience, yes, andthen by the time we're into the
(15:14):
later parts of our lives, we maybe very ready. You know, the the
four ashrama system in in Indiareally speaks of that of having
a time in your life where youare gaining and you're creating
and you're making, you're makingfamily and career, right? How
(15:35):
wonderful to have that insightinto who you really are as
you're doing that as you'rebuilding a life here in the
world, and then when you'reolder and time to stop making
things and start letting go ofthings. We're ready and we can
let go and continue to let gountil only the self remains
(15:59):
absolutely what a wonderfulgoal.
Nischala Joy Devi (16:02):
It Well, it is. It makes sense. It makes
sense. I think the other thingthat I always have to remind
people is going into a conventor a Ashram is not an escape.
Another quote by ParamahamsaYogananda, he said, the ashram
(16:23):
will protect you from the world.
But who will protect you fromthe ashram? Because they're not
saints in there. They're justpeople trying to do their best
to get themselves a little bitof a higher consciousness. So
it's a very different kind ofthing. It's not an escape, and
(16:43):
that's for sure. I think alsowhen we talk about the four
ashramas, I just like to namethem for people, in case they're
not familiar. But the first isBrahmacharya. And Brahmacharya
is what we consider the studentphase. And this is the phase
where you're gatheringinformation. You're in school,
(17:03):
you're gathering, you haveteachers, you're gathering
information to figure out whatyou want to do in your life. And
then you enter into andgenerally, there are 25 year
cycles, so zero to 25 and then25 to 50, you would take a
partner, you'd have a career ora job, and you'd start making
(17:24):
money, raising a family, etc,etc. And then you enter into the
vanaprastha stage, where thechildren are older. You then
turn more towards spiritual sosay you do 5050, your 50% work,
50% spirituality, and then youfinally come to sannyas, which
(17:45):
is total renunciation of theworld. To me, there's a very
there's a lot of similaritiesbetween the first, the
Brahmacharya and the Sannyas.
Matter of fact, when we tookvows, my first vow was
Brahmacharya vows. We took vowsas it became became brahmachari
(18:09):
and and then we took our finalvows. We took Sannyas. So it's
almost like the brahmacharistages. I'm going to try this
and see what it's like todedicate my life to my spiritual
growth and development. But I'malso internally smiling because
it looks, it seems like Kamalaand you and I did it a little
(18:33):
bit out of order too, and whichhappens in the in the more
modern times, we don't followquite the same and we're also in
a very different culture. Butvery few have that real monastic
opportunity, because we don'thave to think about what we eat,
(18:55):
what we wear, where we're goingto sleep, what we're going to
do, everything is decided, whichtakes the pressure away and
allows us to focus on ourmeditation people. Someone who
has three children and iskeeping down two jobs doesn't
have that luxury, and I thinkthis is what we have to let them
(19:16):
know, is you can focus on thatpart even in the midst of your
job, you don't have to renouncethe world for it.
Kamala Rose (19:26):
This is the Gita strength, yeah, speaking to,
speaking to Arjuna here on anobviously a very important day
for him, but nonetheless, he'sspeaking to him in his capacity
at work, essentially in theworld. Yeah, this is work. He's
(19:46):
teaching him about yoga at hisjob. And he's telling him as we
as he started the dialog. Hesaid, change the way you see,
right? Change the way you see.
This. You. Seeing a bunch ofpeople that you believe are in
this drama as it's unfolding. Imean, what if we talk to
(20:06):
ourselves when we're at worklike this, and just said, you
know, we see this like greatbattle between, you know, the
cool people and, you know, tempwork, or whatever it is that
whatever the dynamic is. But thepoint is that we believe it to
be so real that drama, webelieve every bit of it, and
have a hard time taking a stepback and seeing that these
(20:31):
people will go home at the endof the day to their lives and
interact with their families andthe places where they live. And
you know all of this willchange. These people will live
their lives, and when theirlives are over, they'll pass
away. That person is temporary,that body is temporary. Yet all
of us have the self as theindweller. In verse 30, the self
(20:57):
is the indweller of all beings,and it never dies. Therefore,
it's not necessary to grieve foranyone. If we brought this
awareness into all of thecorners of our lives and saw
that each person, whether we seethem as a mentor or someone who
(21:18):
should be respected or veneratedin some way you know, a close
peer, a friend that we have aloving relationship with, the
countless strangers that weinteract with every day, and
even people that get on ournerves we find irritating
difficult to work with, and evenpeople who we find find no love
(21:41):
whatsoever for the self is theindweller in all beings. This is
really the basis of the metaprayer to look on all beings
with the eyes of an inherentequality and equanimity. And
(22:02):
when we do this, I think itteaches our hearts to expand, to
include those who we would wemight shut out of our hearts,
but it requires a shift inperspective, and that's really,
I think, what Krishna isteaching here is change the way
(22:24):
you see it, whatever you are,whatever scenario, whatever
drama is unfolding in your life,just like this drama for Arjuna
to see with The eyes ofspiritual vision is to see the
inherent unity in all things andthe temporary nature that
(22:46):
clothes it as the dramas that weexperience as everyday life.
Nischala Joy Devi (22:55):
Swami Vivekananda being a both a great
Yani and a great bhakti. At thesame time, he was a poet, and he
wrote many extraordinary poems,and the line from one of them
fits right in here. He says tothose that lowly creep, I am the
(23:19):
self and all. And I think everytime I see a bug crawling, I
think of that because we tend tocompartmentalize, and we think
only those with two legs orthree legs or whatever it is,
are the best. And we have torealize that that spirit is
(23:40):
everywhere, everywhere. It's alittle bit sometimes, and I
think this happens probably morewhen we're younger, but to a
certain extent, also, you have ateacher in school, say, you're
in third grade, and you see thatteacher only in the classroom.
(24:01):
That's that's your whole view ofthat teacher. And then on
Saturday, your mother took youto the supermarket, and in walks
that teacher, and you'reshocked. How can you be here?
You belong in the classroom.
This isn't the place for you.
And I think this is what alsohappens with the spirit and the
divine, we think it only belongsin church or temple or synagogue
(24:26):
or wherever, and that once wewalk out, it has nothing to do
with us. Whereas every grocerystore we go into, every gas
station, every clothing store,everywhere we walk in and
there's the divine right infront of us, whether it's at the
cashier, whether it's it'sgetting stocking or cutting some
(24:51):
tofu for us, or whatever it is.
So we tend to be verycompartmentalized and very
small. In our thinking, and whatthe Gita is asking us to do is
expand past those boundaries. Gobeyond that. Don't just see them
in a place that's a good start.
(25:16):
They're in this this deity,they're in this form. That's a
good start, but don't leave itthere. Keep it going. See it
everywhere that you look. Thenwhen we go back to that same
sloka, it becomes verydifferent. We suddenly
understand it. We may not beable to articulate it, because
(25:40):
it's not really in words, but wehave the feeling this is someone
who also has a divine in them,and then it starts to go out
exponentially. So it startssimple, and it goes out from
there, and also the power ofother people around you that
remind you, and that's why, tome, I love what we're doing with
(26:04):
this, because it really helpspeople to understand there's
other ways of looking at theBhagavad Gita and taking it into
your life,
Kamala Rose (26:14):
absolutely, especially this next section.
We're at 231 now for you being awarrior from the kshetra class,
Arjuna, this is your duty, forthere is nothing higher than a
righteous war. Happy indeed arethe Kshatriyas being called to
battle. It is their way. Oh, itis their way to open the gate to
(26:39):
heaven, right? So we're gettingthis. We've been having this
wonderful dialog about theeternal nature of the self, and
we're back to this, this dialogon the battle of krushetra and
how important it is that Arjunadoes his duty. And I know in
(27:02):
reading the Gita over the years,it always kind of comes as a
shock when we've been we've beenkind of out in the stratosphere,
considering the transcendent,and we're back to the
battlefield.
Nischala Joy Devi (27:22):
Go ahead. In a way, it's not unusual, because
I think of that expression thatsays, The Hand That Rocks the
Cradle rules the world. So it'salmost like he gave him this
very high ideal of the self andthe expansion of it, and that's
(27:45):
being held in one hand, and thenhe's moving back to the kshatri
Dharma on the other hand. So Ithink he's sort of doing a push
me, pull me, because,
Kamala Rose (27:59):
and I think as teachers, we sometimes do this
when it seems to be getting toodeep for a student, or you start
to see their eyes go in circles,you switch to something. Okay,
let's stand up and stretchright, or let's take a deep
breath, or something. So that,to me, is what he's doing here.
He got them to one point, andnow he's back to this is your
(28:22):
dharma. Maybe it's not right,but that's how I see it. No, I
think you're I think you'reabsolutely right. And think he's
reminding him that, you know,we've paused this battle, and
here we are on we are here inthe battlefield, and Arjuna, I
think it's very much associated,right? He's showing them. Now
(28:42):
for you, how you would realizethis eternal nature is by doing
your duty. Yes, this is exactly.
This is an Indian idea. We justthis is not, this is not a
component of Christianity, thesame way it is as as it is here
in the Gita. By doing his duty,by being a warrior of the
(29:03):
kshetra class. He says, There'snothing higher than a righteous
war, right? For any warriorwho's called into such a
righteous battle, it's the theheavens are opening wide, right?
So this is like. This is likethe Vikings in their quest for
Valhalla. This is the kshetrawarriors and the promise of the
(29:27):
svarga loka of going to thishighest heaven. This, this
wonderful happy place wheretheir ancestors live, right? A
place where they are rewardedfor their efforts, right? So
(29:49):
it's it's making this battle ofkrushetra into that kind of
scenario for this kind of. Aperson, Krishna is saying that
this Dharma that you're doingright now actually has the
potential to produce the resultsthat I'm talking about with this
eternal self, right? So I thinkwhile there certainly is a
(30:16):
connection, I think it'simportant as modern students to
recognize that there's aconnection here. I think it's
also appropriate for us to, youknow, to feel a little distance
from the language and a littledifferent difficulty and
understanding. If you're not asoldier. How would that apply to
(30:37):
me? Right? How does that applyin current times? Because
reconciling a righteous war withthe path of yoga is one of the
conundrums that we come to withthe Gita that we've talked about
so much. I'll just read the restof this, and we can just discuss
(31:00):
it all together. He says, If youabandon your duty, you will lose
honor, name and fame. All peoplewill speak of your dishonor, and
to one who's honored, dishonoris worse than mortality.
Moreover, those from whom youreceived honor would think that
(31:22):
you turned away from the battleout of fear and regard you with
little respect hereafter, right?
So he's talking about hislegacy. Your enemies belittle
your ability in various waysspeak words of ill fame and
shame about you. What is morepainful than this? If you're
(31:45):
killed in the battle, you'll goto heaven. If you win, you'll
enjoy the earth. Thereforearise. Resolve to fight, having
an equal mind in pain andpleasure, gain and loss, victory
and defeat engage in battle, andthereby you will not incur
(32:06):
karma, right? So we've got awhole section here that is
really speaking to this sense ofduty.
Nischala Joy Devi (32:19):
But I'm looking at this and I'm feeling
a little bit of the Trickster inKrishna, in that he he's pulling
away from the original reasonfor this battle, and the the
(32:41):
land dispute, etc. And what he'sdoing, at least in my
estimation, he's moving him intoa whole other aspect of knowing
himself, the self. So he's usingthe battle, which was originally
done because of this war, ofthis sorry land dispute. And now
(33:05):
he's saying, if you do this, youwill now know yourself. So I
think it's kind of a bait andswitch, because I think if he
offered this to Arjuna, ifKrishna offered this to Arjuna
in the beginning, like that, hemight have said, No. He said,
This is a land dispute. This hasnothing to do with this. But I
(33:28):
see that if Krishna allows himto know him, allows Arjuna to
know himself, then all thisbecomes superfluous. In a way,
he knows what his duty is. Heknows what he's supposed to do.
So to me, that's how I see it isa little bit of a trick, and
trying to get him to do thebattle knowing that he's going
(33:52):
to realize himself when he doesthat.
Kamala Rose (33:55):
So the path to realize himself?
Nischala Joy Devi (33:57):
Yeah, exactly. So to me, that's it's I
smile when I read it, because tome, it's a little bit of a humor
in it. Yeah, here do this andyeah, you'll get your land back,
but you're going to get muchmore than your land back. You're
going to get knowing to knowyourself. So that's how I see
(34:18):
this, as a little bit off thethe main path in that way, and
it makes me laugh. One otherthing I wanted to say, I think
Christianity did have this. Theyhad the Crusades, yes, and we, I
(34:39):
don't want to get into thehistory of the Crusades, because
our time is limited. But I thinkthere's, there's a certain way
when a religion is being builtor being sustained that that
people feel that you need. Toprotect it in some way. So to
(35:03):
me, it's it's it's along thoselines. And again, because it
started out with a land dispute,and now it's traversing into
something that's a spiritualpractice, a spiritual path, a
spiritual realization,
Kamala Rose (35:23):
yeah, yes. And all that we're reading here are,
it's a it's like a condensedversion of kshetra dharma. And
as you said, Arjuna knows whathis duty is. He knows that he is
there, as you know, first andforemost for kshetra warrior
(35:46):
would be to keep the peace willbe, and every effort was made to
keep the peace in thissituation, it was only at the
very last moment that war becameinevitable, and that was because
the Coronavirus were going tofight regardless if the Pandavas
showed up, right? They weregoing to take them down. So
(36:08):
we're again, we're seeing this,this dialog about the ethics of
warfare when it would beappropriate for kings and such
people who are in that whofunction that way in society, as
rulers, as managers, asgovernors, as police, as
(36:28):
military. I get a chance to seewhere I live in the mountains.
We all. We have firefighters. Wehave Forest Service who are
around we, I've met a lot offemale workers, right? There's
so many of these, theseessential emergency services and
(36:52):
peacekeeping services that arethe Army Corps of Engineers and
maintaining infrastructure,right, right? Right? And this
is, you know, I see the duty inthis, and the the pride in this
type of work to, you know, keepkeep the people safe. And this
is really what the kshetraDharma centers around, keeping
(37:16):
the people safe, protecting theland, keeping safety so that
people can thrive and live. Theywere also concerned with the
administration of justice, rightwhen decisions were made,
mediations were done, and Ithink this plays a lot into the
(37:39):
story of the Bhagavad Gita iswe're continually coming back to
the idea that this is that it'sthe right thing justice as a,
you know, as a cultural andcivic imperative, that things
remain balanced when wrongdoinghappens, there has to be
(38:03):
appropriate punishment for thatright, and that falls on someone
to do that, and that was theKshatriya war warriors and or
this whole class, which is a lotmore than warriors, as we have
talked about before, it's notjust military people. There's a
lot of jobs in this, but any waythat there is, decisions have to
(38:30):
be made for the welfare ofeveryone. I think this is,
again, what we're what we'relooking at. You know, in that
honor is the most importantthing, right? So Krishna is
addressing that by saying, Ifyou abandon your duty, you will
lose honor. You'll lose your thestanding of your good name to
(38:51):
all these people who respect youand who doesn't feel that, who
doesn't feel you know the fearof losing your good name, being
ostracized, right, losing yourreputation. I mean, who doesn't
feel that that would be a hugeloss for one who's honored
(39:15):
dishonor, to lose one'sreputation and to be thought of
as contrary to who you are. Ican't think I agree. I think
that would be a worse than deathto be, you know, to be
(39:36):
considered a poser or youweren't. You weren't real, you
lied, you were dishonorable, youwent against your word. And I
think that's what he's what he'sbringing up here.
Nischala Joy Devi (39:49):
I think that happens on a regular basis, and
I'm not sure that can bestopped. The only thing that can
stop it is. If you know who youare. And I think it all goes
back to that people can call youwhatever they want, but if you
really know and you knowyourself, it doesn't affect you
(40:13):
in the same way. And this soagain, I think there's two
there's at least two layersprobably more going through
whatever he's saying. It alsohas another meaning here. And so
this is something that, when Ithink of the honor and that
(40:36):
whole idea, I really I think ofa courtroom, because in the
courtroom, there has to be that.
There's that honor the the judgeis plays God in a certain way in
the courtroom, and we have tostand up when they come into the
room. We stand up when theyleave the room. Their word is
law. You go against them, youget put in jail. So here we are
(41:00):
again looking at this idea ofhonor and looking at this idea
of justice, because they can'tbe fighting the whole time.
There's not wars going onconstantly, at least in this
stage of history. So after thewar, they do become what you
(41:20):
were talking about, thepeacekeepers, the ones that if
something happens to you, who doyou call? Well, we all know we
call a number, and when we callthat number, someone comes to
help us. Well, who are thosepeople? They've given their life
to the service of helping otherpeople. So this K shotra Dharma
(41:41):
that we're talking about, Ithink we have to get off the
idea that it's only soldiers andonly war, and see them as living
among us and helping,protecting, yeah, and and
protecting against fire andpolice and and firefighters and
(42:01):
all these services that we wereally take for granted until
you need that, and when you needit, you really want someone
there. So I think it's helpfulto really expand that, that idea
of what they do, because we'relooking at a sliver of what they
(42:23):
do, and this is because we'refocusing on this war that comes
from the Mahabharata. But inactuality, it's a very small
time, and the war will be over.
What do they do then? Then theyhave to keep their honor, and
(42:44):
they have to keep theirintegrity to then do
peacekeeping. So it all makessense when you look at it
bigger, when you stay small, itdoesn't always make sense, but
to go bigger, it makes sense,
Kamala Rose (43:01):
truly. And I think it's also worth mentioning here
that justice and the performanceof Justice, the you know, the
the fight, the Preserve,preservation of justice. These
are, let's see how to say it,right? When, when we, when we
(43:25):
look at big stories like this,right? That are teaching stories
we have in this story justice iswhy it's the pinnacle, it's what
we're fighting for, right? Butthere have been many, there have
been many feminist philosopherswho have you have taken a look
(43:47):
at some of these, these storiesthat have been used to teach us
culturally, and have found thatjustice is not necessarily the
the ethical measurement forwomen, right? We but as women,
we may feel that we may verymuch resonate with justice. May
(44:12):
say, you know, I know exactlythe right thing to do, and it's
important for me to do that. Butsome feminist philosophers like
Carol Gilligan really questionedwhether women resonated with
justice as our like in in thepurposeful sense of ourselves.
(44:32):
She found that among women andfor women, our highest ethical
metric was our ability to carejust to take care of right? So
it's almost like, if we rereadthis from a feminist a feminine
lens, we would be looking at itand saying, if you choose not to
(44:57):
help, and. And and help thosepeople who need you, it would be
like walking away from, youknow, the good feelings that
people have towards you, therespect that you've earned from
a hard the hard work that you'vedone throughout your life,
right? I think if we reframe itfor ourselves with, I don't want
(45:22):
to put all women into a box andsay that, you know, men, men
are, men are the Justice Leagueand women are the caregivers. I
think that's too binary for us.
I think, yeah, I think we're allin shades in between. And I
don't want to reduce women tojust being the caregivers and
the cooks and the baby makers?
Unknown (45:44):
No, I don't think they are. I think when, but I
Kamala Rose (45:47):
think it's, it does bring a little light in there
that, yeah, we do have a metric.
And I think as as women, it'snot, it's, it's not, uh, you
know, it's not subjugating usculturally by acknowledging that
we are caregivers, and I thinkby nature, if we can lean into
(46:08):
that part of who we are and seethe validity of it, and see that
this is So much of how weexpress our ethical framework.
Nischala Joy Devi (46:23):
Yeah. So a couple things that you said that
I just wanted to comment on,because I think you're
absolutely right on in thesepoints when we look at what we
as women do. And one of thethings where we raise children,
we raise children, and that'swhere I think our justice comes
(46:46):
in, because your your childcomes home with a black eye.
What do you do? Right? So youyou get the other person that
may look better or worse thanyour son and perhaps even their
parents and you, you havejustice. You act as a judge at
(47:07):
that point, you say, whathappened? Who did this? Can you
apologize to her? Can you he?
You apologize to him? So I thinkmothers have that role. We have
to, we have to be neutral andteach the children. And that's
where this comes in. Again, thisthis idea of kshatra Dharma also
(47:30):
probably, and it's changed now,but nursing, which came about in
the 1800s with FlorenceNightingale basically comes from
the word nurture. So when wenurture, when we nurse, someone,
which is has always,traditionally, up till recently,
(47:52):
been a woman's role, you don'tdiscriminate. I remember when I
worked in the hospital, if acriminal came in, even in
handcuffs, you treated themexactly the same as if a
millionaire came in paying allkinds of money. And I to me, it
(48:12):
goes back to this same we don'tcall it kshatra Dharma, but this
is the idea of it, that we'rehere to do justice. We're here
to be caring. That's our nature.
And when we look at someone andmaybe they're a rapist, and I
(48:36):
still have to go in there andtake their blood pressure and
give them something to get themout of their pain, where what I
would maybe like to do is letthem sit with their pain,
because they cause some otherpeople pain. But we can't do
that as health professionals. Wehave to put that aside and walk
in there and serve them, andhopefully with an open heart,
(49:00):
because what we're looking at isnot them as a criminal. We're
looking them as an aspect of theDivine Self. So all this comes
together, and then again, I feellike that. The war, the idea is
just a jump off place for goingto this. This depth of knowing
(49:21):
who we are is one way to getthere, one path to get there.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, withouthatred. So it's not simple. It's
not simple. And I think, andthat's what the idea of a
scripture is. You don't justpick it up and start on page one
and reach page 470 and say, Oh,that was a great book. And you
(49:42):
close it and put it back on theshelf. This is something that we
use to live our lives by. Andeach time you go to it, you read
it, you understand it in alittle bit deeper level, because
you have changed. You havemeditated or even. Taking a
sloka and use that as the objectof your meditation.
Kamala Rose (50:05):
And I think these, these ones, are asking us to
look at our ethical matrix.
Yeah, and even if it's a littleforeign to us as Westerners, I
think it's important that we areable to investigate and ask
ourselves, especially as women,where do you feel a sense of
duty in the world? I mean,certainly if we've been blessed
(50:30):
with children and always have aresponsibility over our
children, but many of us are notcalled to be mothers, and that
is, again, it would be a shameto reduce all women to a single
role. Right? We find our senseof duty and our sense of
belonging in the world in somany ways, and I know as a yoga
(50:52):
teacher, I feel an incrediblesense of caring about the
tradition, and I feel atremendous sense of caring about
my students and and and thatkeeps me going in the way I
think these verses are beingaddressed to Arjuna that I have
(51:14):
a duty to do this. I have I knowin my small town, I'm, that's my
niche that I fit into. I'm, I'mthat person people can rely on
me for that job, and I get upevery day without, with no
reservation. I love going to myjob and and sharing yoga with
people, right? So I think aswomen, we have to, we have to
(51:41):
dig a little deeper toreinterpret these verses for
ourselves and discover what is.
What is my dharma as a modernwestern woman? Where do I feel a
sense of duty towards my civicsociety, towards my town, my
city, my state, my country, myworld. You know the people
(52:05):
around me, how am I making theworld a better place? How am I
helping to uplift others andpreserve a sense of moral and
ethical good in the world?
Nischala Joy Devi (52:20):
I think also we need to expand our vision of
what a mother is. I think aswomen, whether we have
physically given birth or not,we are engineered for that, and
in that engineering, that'sthat's how we become the
caregivers. That's how we becomethe nurses and now the doctors
(52:43):
and the fire fighters and thepolice and all that, expanding
and knowing that no one is astranger to us. Every child is
our child, and we're everybody'smother at the same time, in the
in the the expanded sense of theword, I'm not talking about
(53:06):
wiping their noses and makingsure they're wearing a coat, but
really helping them to movethrough the world with wisdom
and integrity. I think that's aduty, that's a duty.
Kamala Rose (53:20):
And I think there's a great duty to see more women
carrying caring forcorporations, yes and world,
caring for the world, and caringas leaders in our government,
and caring in academia withtheir PhDs, and bringing a
feminine perspective into all ofthe spheres of life.
Nischala Joy Devi (53:42):
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I think we've
come to the end of a veryinteresting session today. I
Kamala Rose (53:50):
thought, I am you all for joining us today?
Nischala Joy Devi (53:53):
Just for everyone. Just be aware of your
role in the world. How do youmove through how do you act in
the world? Who are you? Justthink about it until next time
this has been a woman's Gita,
Kamala Rose (54:10):
Namaste. Namaste.
Unknown (54:14):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with
nishtula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a woman's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(54:38):
Namaste. You.
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