December 8, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode of A Woman's Gita Podcast, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose delve into the profound teachings of the Bhagavad Gita as Krishna responds to Arjuna's overwhelming grief and confusion.
Key topics include:
- Arjuna's emotional state and Krishna's compassionate guidance
- The symbolism of the banyan tree and its significance in the Upanishadic tradition
- The role of silence, meditation, and the teacher-student relationship
- The concept of the eternal nature of the self, transcending temporary physical existence
- The cyclical nature of life and death, and the importance of understanding this process
- Personal experiences and reflections on aging, grief, and the essence that remains constant
As Nischala and Kamala unpack these profound teachings, listeners will be captivated by the feminine perspective that illuminates the wisdom at the heart of this revered scripture. Whether you are new to the Bhagavad Gita or a seasoned practitioner, this episode offers insights that can deepen your understanding of the eternal essence within us all.
Join us as we continue our journey through the Bhagavad Gita, discovering the timeless spiritual truths that can guide us through life's challenges and transitions.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:02):
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
nistula Joy Davie and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:42):
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gita.
Today, we're going to movefurther into chapter two and
just go back a little bit to thelast chapter and just to
remember what was happening, wefind our dear friend Arjuna,
(01:08):
overwhelmed, overwhelmed, and hehad this very strong,
sympathetic nervous systemreaction that We talked about in
depth, and we move now into twoseven in the slokas, chapter
(01:29):
two, sloka seven, my very beingis overwhelmed with sorrow and
is confused about what is theright thing to do, which is the
better choice, I beg you, willyou be my teacher? So we see now
he's becoming a little bit morehumble. He realizes that he
(01:51):
doesn't actually know exactlywhat to do, and he, in fact, did
choose Krishna to come and helphim and advise him. But up to
this point, it's almost like heforgot that Christian was there,
and he suddenly looked up andsaw there he was, and he said,
oh, probably in his mindsomewhere, he thought, Oh,
(02:15):
here's someone that can help me.
Will you be my teacher? He said,I can find no means to drive
away this grief which overcomesme. I will not be able to dispel
it, even if I win a prosperous,unrivaled kingdom on earth or in
heaven. And then we come tosloka two nine, having Arjuna,
(02:36):
having expressed his fears, saidto his teacher. Now, remember
just a minute ago, he said, bemy teacher, which means I will
take your advice. But now hesays to his teacher, I will not
fight. And becomes silent. Wheredoes he go from here? Where can
(03:02):
you go from here? He has madehis decision. The question is,
Can Krishna help him change hismind? Do
Kamala Rose (03:23):
in the following verse, in 210 our narrator,
Sanjaya, tells us that Krishnagives a slight smile, which
tells us he's speaking fromcompassion at heart, and He
speaks to our Juna. And this iswhere we begin, really the
teachings of the Bhagavad Gita,where Krishna begins to teach in
(03:45):
210 he takes on the role of ateacher to Arjuna. As nishala
said, we have Arjuna in a totalmeltdown. He's realized that he
has Krishna on his side. Turnsand asks him, will he teach now
this is often considered to beone of the most important parts
(04:07):
of the Bhagavad Gita that theWarriors are headed into battle.
And Arjuna has asked Krishna todrive his chariot, his war
chariot, in between the twoarmies, where he can see the
faces of those in front of him.
And part of this image that isso compelling is that when
Krishna stops the chariot inbetween the two armies, facing
(04:31):
Bhishma and Drona, very belovedto Arjuna, he's also under a
banyan tree. And I think thiscomes from a popular retelling
of the story that they've parkedunder a banyan tree. And the
banyan tree is full ofextraordinary imagery and
(04:54):
meaning. And I. One hand, thebanyan tree is a symbol of the
kshetra class. And so when wehave this image of the chariot
parked underneath the banyantree, one part of it says that
Krishna is going to instruct himon the best way to behave as a
(05:16):
kshetra in this situation, howto apply Kshatriya Dharma to his
crisis of conscience. And sowhen we read the Gita, this is
why we continually hear,therefore you must fight,
therefore you must take arms,take up arms and participate in
(05:36):
this battle, right? So this isone level of teaching that's
going on, but on another levelof teaching, the banyan tree is
a strong symbol that representsa teaching environment. It's a
symbol of the teacher and thestudent, and what is known as
(05:57):
the the setting of theUpanishads, or a symbol of the
Upanishads. Upanishad means,literally, to to shod or to sit
near, to sit with a teacher. Andwhether this is an image from
mythology or this is really howthis happened. I'm sure it was
(06:21):
really how it happened thatsitting under these
extraordinary banyan trees iswhere the teachings of the
Upanishads were given betweenteacher and student in a dialog.
And this is really what we havein the Bhagavad Gita is a dialog
between Krishna and Arjunaunderneath the this banyan tree.
(06:41):
And for those of you who'venever seen a banyan tree or a
picture of this, it's It'sextraordinary. It has so much
meaning to it. Well, I'm surewe'll continue to talk about it
throughout our writing andpodcasts here. But the Ficus
bengalensis, so it's known asthe Indian Ficus, actually, out
(07:05):
of its branches, it's the kindof tree that takes over another
tree. In the first place, itcompletely takes over that other
tree, and out of the branches,it starts to drop roots down
from the branches. So it reallymakes this incredible natural
(07:26):
environment where it's not justone tree, it's becomes hundreds
of trees that live together.
It's an it's an extraordinaryimage of, I think, the goal of
all of this philosophy is thatwe're able to live harmoniously
(07:46):
together with respect and asense of gracefulness for the
world that we live in.
Nischala Joy Devi (07:54):
I just want to add something also, a little
bit how I see that is that theyhave the banyan tree always has
the central core, and to me,that would be representing the
teacher. And then each time thebranches put down true roots,
(08:15):
and those roots then becometheir own tree. It's, it's that
natural order that we've beentalking about that the teacher
gives the knowledge to thestudent, the student then
becomes the teacher, and thengives that knowledge to the next
student, etc. And it keepshappening. And to me, the banyan
tree is exactly that you see thecentral but then you after a
(08:42):
while, you can't see what's themain part, because the other
trunks become so strong and theroots become so strong. So it's
very typical. Also, there wassomething a little mystical.
There was these big fires inHawaii, and this particular area
has this amazing banyan tree init. And for some reason, the
(09:05):
banyan tree was left unharmed.
And I think that's sosignificant of the power of the
banyan tree and and it doesshelter. It literally does what
we talked about before that itdoesn't need a fence around it,
but now it's shelters, animals,humans, anything that wants to
(09:28):
come under it. So it's, it's apretty remarkable tree in that
particular way.
Kamala Rose (09:36):
Sometimes it's called a one tree forest.
Nischala Joy Devi (09:39):
Uh huh, that's great. I like that, yeah.
I like that, yes.
Kamala Rose (09:44):
And in the you know, every tree and every
flower has a light, a meaning, amystical meaning, yeah, and an
energy to it, yeah, yeah. TheBanyan tree represents the
process of becoming self awaremeditation. Space and the the
tradition of silence, andnishila and I have we've talked
(10:09):
about this, the importance ofsilence, the importance of
meditation, and really theunique aspect of the yoga
tradition that asks us to besilent daily, to take time and
devote a certain amount of timeevery day to the inner space and
(10:30):
to the inner process. And thisis where the Gita picks up. And
sometimes when we're reading,it'll it's almost a little bit
abrupt that we're changingsubjects from the war now to
silence and to the innerprocess. So when Krishna begins
to speak and to teach Arjuna, hehe says in verse 11, you grieve
(10:55):
for those who do not deserveyour grief, yet you speak words
of wisdom, be like the wise. Donot grieve for the dead or for
the living. And in 12, never wasthere a time when I did not
exist, nor you, nor any being.
Never will there be a timehereafter when any of us shall
(11:18):
cease to be so he's respondingwith almost a completely
different subject. And why is heresponding with this other
subject? Is because he'sanswering the grief, the sorrow
the vashata, the giving upnessof Arjuna with the idea of
(11:41):
something that is beyond thetemporary situation,
Nischala Joy Devi (11:51):
I think this is a really important aspect we
need to bring into our lives. Wetend to think that what's
happening at the moment willnever change. And this is where,
when we talk about a banyantree, I think about the image
that was depicted in a differentscripture, where it talks about
(12:12):
the that we are more like anupside down tree, and those of
our listeners that are involvedat all in asana practice. I
think we can understand this,because if you go into any of
the inverted poses, it not onlybrings a wonderful circulation
(12:35):
to the body and all thewonderful health benefits, but
it also does something else. Itgives us a very different
perspective of life. Andsometimes I will even suggest
that to people, that if they'rehaving a hard time, go up into
shoulder stand and look at itfrom a different view, or go
into headstand and look at itfrom the bottom up, instead of
(12:58):
the top down. So I think thisimage where the roots are in the
heavens and the branches arebelow, is is a wonderful image,
and something that I keepbringing back into my life all
the time, because to me, itsignifies look at this
differently. You may not be inthe belief system of
(13:24):
reincarnation. You may notunderstand this at all, but give
it a chance. Give it a chance.
There's a lot of people thatunderstand this. Go with them
for a little bit if then it itdoesn't make sense, back up. But
the idea that we can look at itfrom a different angle, from a
different place than we'venormally been, I think this is
(13:45):
one of the aspects of spiritualpractice, to never stay where
you are. There's a lot that'ssaid these days, especially in a
yoga therapy setting with a talkabout meeting the student where
they are, which I totally agreewith, but I always add the next
(14:06):
part. Don't leave them there.
Meet them where they are, butthen take them further. And to
me, this is what this thesethese passages are right now he
sees his despondency and to getinto it with him would only make
it worse. Instead, elevate himto another level and show him
(14:31):
that there's more in this worldthan what he's facing at this
moment.
Kamala Rose (14:38):
And he's speaking about the eternal, an eternal
aspect of being that is beyondthe temporary sense of being,
which is a foundation of allEastern thought and philosophy
and really something that wedon't find so much in our
exposure from the West, where I.
The world of spirit is madedistinct from the world of
(15:02):
substance, right? So whenKrishna says you grieve for
those who do not deserve yourgrief, yet you speak words of
wisdom, he is acknowledging asituation and saying, Well, you
have a few you got some pointsthere, my friend, but be like
the wise. Don't grieve foranyone who is living or dead,
(15:25):
right? And this is a very clearview that some things expire,
some things decay, some thingsare in constant change. Yet, as
he says in verse 12, thatthere's also something that
lives on. Never was there a timewhen I did not exist, nor you,
nor any being. So as Arjun islooking at the battlefield, he
(15:49):
changes his perspective entirelyand says, don't look at these as
people who are going to die.
Look at the eternal essence ineveryone. He says, Never will
there be a time hereafter whenany of us will cease to be
which, as nishala said, this isan upside down. This is looking
(16:10):
at it almost as the fool from acompletely different
perspective. I'd just like
Nischala Joy Devi (16:17):
to go back to that word grief for a moment.
I'm not sure. I think it's alittle bit confusing, because it
says the wise do not grieve forthe dead or the living. When we
grieve, it really has nothing todo with anyone else. It's a
(16:37):
situation that has triggered anemotion within us, grieving for
the dead or the living reallybrings no benefit to the dead or
the living, celebrating them,understanding them, having
compassion for them, yes, butgrieving is, in A way, something
(16:59):
that we do to soothe ourselves.
It really doesn't affect otherpeople. And I always feel grief
is so personal. It's such apersonal thing. No one can tell
us how long or how much orAren't you done yet. It's been a
couple of years, and then itcomes in spurts after it has
(17:21):
survived that long period, itnow comes in little drips and
drabs and spurts you seesomething and it triggers you.
So maybe for Arjuna, he would besitting down at a holiday feast
and notice that his family ismissing. His relatives aren't
(17:45):
there. Perhaps even theirfamilies have not come because
their ill feelings. So the griefis not just pure grief. It's
mixed. It's mixed with Did I dothe right thing? Is this right?
(18:05):
Who are these people, the onesthat are dead? I can't make up
for it again. So it's a verycomplicated issue, and that's
why we keep saying, look at itfrom a different angle. Look at
it for a different side. Ifyou're counseling a person who's
grieving, it's much less emotionthan the person that's doing it.
(18:28):
Step back. Look at yourself froma distance. That's really one of
the things he's trying to sayhere.
Kamala Rose (18:39):
You're so right to bring that up. In the last
several years, we've all dealtwith a process of grief, and the
world's changed during covidextraordinarily, I know I've had
a lot of loss, and that whengrief comes to visit, your best
to invite her into your guesthouse for the period that she's
going to stay and let her gowhen it's time. Don't make
Nischala Joy Devi (19:03):
it too comfortable.
Kamala Rose (19:04):
Don't make her too comfortable.
Nischala Joy Devi (19:06):
People always tell me, don't make your guest
room too comfortable. You don'twant them to stay too full.
Kamala Rose (19:11):
That's it. That's it. It'll, it'll. She'll eat you
up. She'll eat you out of houseand home, for sure.
Nischala Joy Devi (19:17):
Yet, grief is an important part of healing.
Yes, we have to grieve. And somepeople grieve immediately, and
some people wait longer becauseit hasn't really sunk in. It
hasn't really happened. And Ithink one of the the agonies of
people when they can't find theremains of their loved ones is
(19:37):
it puts off their grief. Theydon't have the ability, and we
are talking about thepossibility of war here, so we
have to look at all that. Butgrieving, that word grief, is so
important in this text thatsomething to even pull out and
think about, how do you grieve?
What do you. Do? How do youbring solace into that grief? Or
(20:01):
can you speak to someone aboutit, whether it's a small grief
or a major one, it all has to beresolved. Otherwise it will come
back and it will affect usmentally, emotionally and
physically.
Kamala Rose (20:20):
Yes, a complicated and very non linear emotion. So
Krishna here is bringing ourattention with Arjuna to the
part that is eternal, the partthat does live on. To think that
there is a part of who we'velost that lives on, there's a
part of ourselves that lives on.
There's a part of every livingbeing, everything that is alive.
(20:45):
There is an essence that willlive on, that will never cease
to be, regardless of whathappens here in our lives,
whether the body expires from anatural life cycle we passed for
mold age, or in this situation,we're faced with an
(21:07):
extraordinary situation ofviolence and disruption that
threatens to cause an enormouschange to everything we know and
threatens the threatens thelives of those around us.
Unfortunately, in the world welive in, this is so true for so
(21:27):
many people are dealing with warright now, and so this is, you
know, this is meant to be verycomforting to us. And these are
insights that what Krishna isteaching. Are these? Are these
insights about the eternalnature of the self are are best
attributed to the body, that ofof text that we call the
(21:53):
Upanishads, the mystical insightthat is really beyond an
intellectual knowing, a mysticalinsight that comes from knowing,
directly from throughmeditation, through spiritual
awakening, through the theinterior silence, that leads to
(22:13):
a mystical insight that there'sa part of us that lives on,
whether we call that the spiritor the soul or the the eternal
nature of a living being, andthat we are looking at this as
an answer to his sorrow and hitto his despair.
Nischala Joy Devi (22:39):
Let's go back to 212 for just a moment,
because I think there's so muchto said in that small sloka, and
there's a little bit that'sbeing taken for granted. I think
when he says, Never was there atime when I did not exist, nor
you, nor any being, and neverwill there be a time hereafter
(23:02):
when any of us shall cease to beI think that that could a little
bit shake the Western mind,because we don't really think of
things like that. We, we haveour parameters. We understand
birth, or we think we do. Idon't understand how we think we
(23:26):
know birth, because all of asudden you watch a woman
blossom, and next thing youknow, another human being is
coming out of her body. I thinkwe've been a little complacent
about that, the miracle of that,and the sheer awe in seeing this
little head pop out of anotherperson's body. So we think we
(23:50):
understand that, and we leapthrough and we cruise through
life, whatever that is, and atthe end, we watch this person
that we thought was a personsuddenly become an empty shell,
but we don't understand it. Ourminds cannot grasp it, let alone
(24:15):
what happened to make that anempty shell? Where did it go?
Where did my mother go? Wheredid my sister go? Where did my
father? Where are they? Are theystill somewhere where I know so
I think this mystery, this wholething that's been going on, and
(24:35):
when he says it like that to me,I want to go in headstand. I
want to look up and I want tosay, Wow, I never I'll always
exist. Where is that? That meanseveryone will always exist. So
it really shakes up. I thinkthat concept that we have of
(24:55):
birth and death, rather than thecontinuum that. Get into in
further slokas,
Kamala Rose (25:03):
you're reminding me, nishla of several years ago,
I was I was doing some researchon this and getting a lecture
together, and I learned aboutone of the very first, the very
earliest grave sites thatanthropologists found in a cave
(25:25):
called Shanidar. And Shanidarcave is in Iraq, in the Kurdish
territories, and it's one of thelongest, continuously inhabited
places in the world, right? Sothey what made this
Nischala Joy Devi (25:44):
habit, you have to say, what inhabited.
Inhabited
Kamala Rose (25:48):
it was they found, uh, they found it inhabited by
Neanderthals. Oh, okay. What wassignificant about this is, you
know, for so long inanthropology, no one has given
Neanderthals the credit forbeing intelligent, and I feel
found that CRO magnons that wecome from were had all of the
intelligence. But anyway,looking at this grave site, they
(26:10):
found around around the body andthe bones, herbs and flowers,
and this was the first time thatthey found that some sort of
right or ritual had been done tohonor the life of the living
these herbs and flowers were notdidn't just fall into that hole.
(26:32):
They were gathered from the areaand brought there and the
sentiment of using trees andflowers as forms of meaning for
almost unspeakable things suchas life and death found in the
shanadark cave. So this wasabout, this goes back 60,000
(26:53):
years. Wow, wow. Yeah. So Ithink matters of life and death
are things that have caused us.
This has been the impetus forthe search for us to ask these,
the mystery of life and death,to ask these questions, where do
you go? Where did this persongo? What happened? And this is
(27:14):
where these, these beliefsystems were born.
Nischala Joy Devi (27:23):
That's fascinating, because we see
that. We see it in paintings, incaves, we see the expression,
and this is how I see it, as anexpression of their grief, and
the ability to be able toexpress it through flowers,
through drawings. Maybe theydidn't have words in those days,
(27:48):
like we had to talk it through,but they had other ways of
expressing their grief and theirlove for whoever has departed.
But also there's you can't pushaway the fear when we see that
happening. It's I remember when,when my mother died, I was very
(28:11):
much an adult by then, not achild at all. And one day I woke
up and I thought to myself, Wow,now I'm an orphan. And I thought
to myself, What a bizarre thingto think at your age, but the
image came to me that I have nowstepped up to the edge of the
cliff. There's no one in frontof me anymore. It's my turn.
(28:36):
Next, when that will be, wedon't know, but at a certain
point I will jump like everybodyelse does. So all this when it's
brought out in a scripture likethis, I think really, and as far
as I know, the Gita is reallyone of the few that talks about
(28:57):
it in this particular way, soboldly and tied to the war
experience, of course, becausewhen you go to war, you don't
know what's going to happen, howyou will come back. We spoke of
that before, so all this is tiedup with it, and the grief, the
(29:18):
fear, the compassion, the thankGod they're free. That's what
people would ask me. They say,Well, how do you feel about your
mother going and I said, well,she's now free, and so am I.
There's a relief in not watchingher suffer, not watching that on
a day to day basis. But itdoesn't mean you don't feel
(29:42):
grief for it. So I understand alittle bit what Arjun is going
through this push, push me, pullme. I feel this, but I also feel
that because we're multidimensional beings, we just
don't feel one thing
Kamala Rose (29:59):
we start. Feel all of the feelings, especially, as
you said, We're looking here ata fear of death. It opens
Krishna teachings Open With,let's talk about the main issue,
which is the fear of death,which all beings. It's one of
the things that we can say isbelongs to everyone. Sarva,
(30:20):
bhuta Shu in all beings, thereis breath when we are alive,
there's a heartbeat when we arealive, and we all universally
experience a fear of death. Andso addressing this from the very
beginning, I think it's one ofthe reasons that we're drawn to
(30:41):
spiritual teachings and to whatthe religions, the world's
religions, hope to answer for usis what happens. I love verse 13
here, which takes it now a stepfarther, just as one who is
embodied passes through thevarious stages of childhood,
(31:01):
youth and old age, they acquireanother body after death, a calm
mind is not disturbed by this.
Nischala Joy Devi (31:11):
Isn't that the the catch at the end, a calm
mind is not disturbed by this,yes, but a tumultuous mind, it
causes great
Unknown (31:22):
fear. Yeah, great fear.
Yes.
Nischala Joy Devi (31:25):
I also love this, this particular sloka, and
there's a wonderful, what I callDisneyland for adults in in Los
Angeles, as the Hare Krishnacenter there. And they made a
huge diorama of this particularsloka. And if anyone's ever in
(31:49):
the Los Angeles area, I reallysuggest that you go see it,
because it explains it in such aclear way that the mind does not
even have a problem with it,because it's so clear. And what
it shows it's a scene out innature, and it shows a plot of
(32:11):
land covered by grass, and inthat grass you see these little
particles start to come up, andnext thing you see is a little
fetus, and the fetus starts togrow and grow and grow is being
nurtured and fed. And then thenext thing you see is a little
baby being born, and then yousee a toddler, and then a
(32:35):
preteen, and then a teen, and itkeeps lighting up as it goes.
And then you see a full adult,and then you start to see which
is so amazing, this adult startto age and curl up in the same
fetal position that the babycame out. And you show it. It
(32:55):
shows him getting very old, old,old, going into the ground,
being buried and then coming outagain as this beautiful baby.
And it shows the continualcycle, unbroken of this cycle of
life. And when you look at it,there's an awe to look at the
(33:17):
two sides and see a baby curledin fetal position and an old
person in fetal position. Iremember once, I was in a
shopping mall at that point withmy husband's grandmother and his
small niece, who was about twoor three, maybe four at the
(33:37):
time, and we were pushinggrandma in a wheelchair, and we
were pushing the little baby ina in a carriage, and at one
point she was actually verbal.
She was able to speak at thatpoint. And she looked over and
she said, You know, I'm justlike grandma. She said, how? So?
She said, Well, she wearsdiapers, so do I? She doesn't
(33:59):
have any teeth. I don't have anyteeth. It was so innocent. She
rides around in a carriage. Iride around in a carriage. It
was like she she understood theBhagavad Gita at that moment,
that this is what happens. Westart out in a particular way,
(34:19):
and we seem to end up in thatparticular way. So what we're
being told here is, don't have afear of it. This is a natural
flow. This is how life goes.
This is life and death and thenlife and then death.
Kamala Rose (34:39):
The verse here in 13, dehino, Yata de heumaram,
yauvanam, Jara, Tata de Haan,Tara prapatir, deera, statra na
muyati. It's so beautiful. Hetalks about. About the this idea
(35:02):
of the day in which means thebody wearer,
Nischala Joy Devi (35:06):
haha, that's great. I like that. So
Kamala Rose (35:11):
I love this idea that he doesn't say the Atman,
he doesn't say the soul, he saysthe one, the embodied one who is
wearing the body goes throughchildhood, youth and old age,
and then acquires another body.
The wise are not deluded, or acalm mind is not disturbed by
(35:32):
this. So to think that there's apart of ourselves that's
actually wearing this body, theone that you have right now. And
for those of us who have spentsome time studying yoga
philosophy, and you know, thewhole world of yoga this this
idea that there's a part of usthat will live on, that this
(35:56):
body is only temporary, and thatit's not about the body, right?
That our practice is not aboutthe body. Sometimes, with all of
the heavy asana practice, we canbe deluded about that, and we
can think it is about the body.
It can be about, you know,trying to get those great arm
(36:18):
balances, or, you know, we thinkthat that's what yoga is for.
Yet, in reality, we're we'reunderstanding that this body
that is capable of doingextraordinary things is like a
time capsule that we live in fora short period, and we'll have
(36:39):
to give it up, if you havefriends or parents who are in
their twilight years, you know,you've seen this kind of
struggle of, you know, losingcapabilities, you know, becoming
more like a child as you getolder. And I think this insight
can help us so much as we learnto not only gain inabilities
(37:05):
through our lives, build onabilities, gain get good at
things, but also be ready to letgo as we're not so good at it.
If any of you are like me, asyou've gotten older, maybe you
just can't do those arm balancesanymore, or it's not worth it on
your wrists to you know, feellike you've got to practice yoga
(37:29):
in that way, and we come tounderstand yoga differently. I
think as we get older, that thepurpose of those asanas is to
get the mind and body ready forthe more subtle practices, so
that we can sit for a moreprolonged period of time, and we
can come to terms with theseideas about what does happen at
(37:53):
the end of life, and even if Webecome very, very wise and very
knowledgeable on this, we canproactively approach those
twilight years of our lives andknow that we're getting ready to
pass and hopefully have somegrace with letting go of
(38:15):
capabilities as we lose them.
Although I think that's a tallorder,
Nischala Joy Devi (38:21):
it's almost like we have a hidden zipper
that doesn't show until we getto get ready, get near that
point of death, and suddenly wesee a zipper. It reminded me of
a movie. There was a movie aboutthat, about old people being
taken to another planet, orsomething, by people who just
unzipped themselves, andsuddenly, what was it? Cocoon,
(38:45):
cocoon. And you suddenly sawthis light being come out of
this unzipped body. And thatimage just stayed with me,
because it seemed to me almostreal, like that's the way it
actually happens. And havingbeen in medicine for so many
years, I had the privilege ofwatching people transition, and
(39:13):
there's a certain feeling thatyou cannot describe, and some
people actually see lightemanating from their bodies. So
let's just think of this beforediscarding it, even if it
doesn't fit in with your beliefsystem, just think about it for
(39:36):
a while. Notice how it feels andyou may just want to experience
it upside down, even if youcan't go into headstand, just
hang off the bed. Look at itfrom another angle, something.
But don't discard that whichmillions and millions and
millions of people have believedfor 1000s of years. There must
(40:00):
be something to it.
Kamala Rose (40:03):
This idea of reincarnation is a has been a
core belief, I know, for me, forthroughout my life, and for for
many. But as nishala said, itcould be very foreign to you
thinking about the idea of anindwelling part of ourselves
(40:26):
that is present from a smallchild I know as a mother,
bringing a person into the worldand meeting that person as a
baby and watching him grow upand really stay the same on the
inside, through childhood,through adolescence, and now as
(40:47):
an adult, you realize that thereis the same essence in that
person that has grown and becomedeveloped and has manifested in
This world, and it's sobeautiful and mysterious, and
like you watching watchingpeople I love pass away as
(41:08):
equally as mysterious. Yes,through the last breath, from
the first breath entering formand the last breath exiting
form, it's a mystery. And youknow, we really are there many
times. Women are there at thosetimes of transition and are
(41:30):
Usher usher in life and usher itout.
Nischala Joy Devi (41:34):
Sure it out when you're talking about not
the same essence existing. Imean, I love that's why I love
to talk to people who are longtime residents on this planet,
because they have the wisdom.
And I remember once my mother, Ithink, was 92 at the time, and
(41:56):
she called me into her room withI thought something had
happened. That's how excited shewas. And I walked in, and she
said, come here. And I wentover, and she was standing in
front of the mirror, and shepointed to the mirror, and she
said, Who is that old lady inthere? And I looked, and I said,
I don't see an old lady inthere. What were they going to
(42:19):
say? And she said to me, that'snot me, is it? And she said, It
couldn't be. I can't be thatold. I don't feel that inside,
right? And again, I talked toanother friend who was 96 and
she said, I don't know who thisbody belongs to anymore. I don't
feel that so we do get to apoint where we start to realize
(42:43):
that we're not the body, becausethat essence within us is still
strong and powerful. It's justthrough meditation, through
deeper practices, we can realizeit before we're ready to let it
go. We can live in the worldwith the body, but still know
the truths through meditation.
Kamala Rose (43:10):
That sounds like a great place to wrap up. These
are such important verses in theBhagavad Gita krishna's First
teachings, 211, 12 and 13,talking about the eternal nature
of spirit, of the soul in theBhagavad Gita called the Atman.
(43:30):
We'll look forward to picking uphere on our next podcast. We
thank everyone so much forjoining. We're so encouraged to
see all of our listeners andsubscribers and thank you so
much for all of your positivefeedback and for supporting our
podcast. We love gettingtogether and talking about the
Bhagavad Gita, both of us suchdedicated yoga teachers and
(43:54):
dedicated to helping to expandthe insight of the tradition
into the practices of meditationand into the greater philosophy
of yoga. So thanks to ourlisteners for being a part. Make
sure to subscribe on yourfavorite podcast platforms.
Nischala Joy Devi (44:13):
Namaste.
Unknown (44:17):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with
nistula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a women's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(44:41):
Namaste. You.
Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern
discussion of the Bhagavad Gitaby and for Western women. A
women's Gita featuresdiscussions on the Bhagavad
Gita, the timeless classic ofEastern wisdom, reinterpreted
from the perspective of twofemale teachers, your hosts are
(00:24):
nistula Joy Davie and KamalaRose, who have dedicated their
lives to the yoga tradition at atime when women's voices are
finally emerging, a feminineperspective of the wartime
treatise could not be moretimely.
Nischala Joy Devi (00:42):
Namaste.
Welcome to a woman's Gita.
Today, we're going to movefurther into chapter two and
just go back a little bit to thelast chapter and just to
remember what was happening, wefind our dear friend Arjuna,
(01:08):
overwhelmed, overwhelmed, and hehad this very strong,
sympathetic nervous systemreaction that We talked about in
depth, and we move now into twoseven in the slokas, chapter
(01:29):
two, sloka seven, my very beingis overwhelmed with sorrow and
is confused about what is theright thing to do, which is the
better choice, I beg you, willyou be my teacher? So we see now
he's becoming a little bit morehumble. He realizes that he
(01:51):
doesn't actually know exactlywhat to do, and he, in fact, did
choose Krishna to come and helphim and advise him. But up to
this point, it's almost like heforgot that Christian was there,
and he suddenly looked up andsaw there he was, and he said,
oh, probably in his mindsomewhere, he thought, Oh,
(02:15):
here's someone that can help me.
Will you be my teacher? He said,I can find no means to drive
away this grief which overcomesme. I will not be able to dispel
it, even if I win a prosperous,unrivaled kingdom on earth or in
heaven. And then we come tosloka two nine, having Arjuna,
(02:36):
having expressed his fears, saidto his teacher. Now, remember
just a minute ago, he said, bemy teacher, which means I will
take your advice. But now hesays to his teacher, I will not
fight. And becomes silent. Wheredoes he go from here? Where can
(03:02):
you go from here? He has madehis decision. The question is,
Can Krishna help him change hismind? Do
Kamala Rose (03:23):
in the following verse, in 210 our narrator,
Sanjaya, tells us that Krishnagives a slight smile, which
tells us he's speaking fromcompassion at heart, and He
speaks to our Juna. And this iswhere we begin, really the
teachings of the Bhagavad Gita,where Krishna begins to teach in
(03:45):
210 he takes on the role of ateacher to Arjuna. As nishala
said, we have Arjuna in a totalmeltdown. He's realized that he
has Krishna on his side. Turnsand asks him, will he teach now
this is often considered to beone of the most important parts
(04:07):
of the Bhagavad Gita that theWarriors are headed into battle.
And Arjuna has asked Krishna todrive his chariot, his war
chariot, in between the twoarmies, where he can see the
faces of those in front of him.
And part of this image that isso compelling is that when
Krishna stops the chariot inbetween the two armies, facing
(04:31):
Bhishma and Drona, very belovedto Arjuna, he's also under a
banyan tree. And I think thiscomes from a popular retelling
of the story that they've parkedunder a banyan tree. And the
banyan tree is full ofextraordinary imagery and
(04:54):
meaning. And I. One hand, thebanyan tree is a symbol of the
kshetra class. And so when wehave this image of the chariot
parked underneath the banyantree, one part of it says that
Krishna is going to instruct himon the best way to behave as a
(05:16):
kshetra in this situation, howto apply Kshatriya Dharma to his
crisis of conscience. And sowhen we read the Gita, this is
why we continually hear,therefore you must fight,
therefore you must take arms,take up arms and participate in
(05:36):
this battle, right? So this isone level of teaching that's
going on, but on another levelof teaching, the banyan tree is
a strong symbol that representsa teaching environment. It's a
symbol of the teacher and thestudent, and what is known as
(05:57):
the the setting of theUpanishads, or a symbol of the
Upanishads. Upanishad means,literally, to to shod or to sit
near, to sit with a teacher. Andwhether this is an image from
mythology or this is really howthis happened. I'm sure it was
(06:21):
really how it happened thatsitting under these
extraordinary banyan trees iswhere the teachings of the
Upanishads were given betweenteacher and student in a dialog.
And this is really what we havein the Bhagavad Gita is a dialog
between Krishna and Arjunaunderneath the this banyan tree.
(06:41):
And for those of you who'venever seen a banyan tree or a
picture of this, it's It'sextraordinary. It has so much
meaning to it. Well, I'm surewe'll continue to talk about it
throughout our writing andpodcasts here. But the Ficus
bengalensis, so it's known asthe Indian Ficus, actually, out
(07:05):
of its branches, it's the kindof tree that takes over another
tree. In the first place, itcompletely takes over that other
tree, and out of the branches,it starts to drop roots down
from the branches. So it reallymakes this incredible natural
(07:26):
environment where it's not justone tree, it's becomes hundreds
of trees that live together.
It's an it's an extraordinaryimage of, I think, the goal of
all of this philosophy is thatwe're able to live harmoniously
(07:46):
together with respect and asense of gracefulness for the
world that we live in.
Nischala Joy Devi (07:54):
I just want to add something also, a little
bit how I see that is that theyhave the banyan tree always has
the central core, and to me,that would be representing the
teacher. And then each time thebranches put down true roots,
(08:15):
and those roots then becometheir own tree. It's, it's that
natural order that we've beentalking about that the teacher
gives the knowledge to thestudent, the student then
becomes the teacher, and thengives that knowledge to the next
student, etc. And it keepshappening. And to me, the banyan
tree is exactly that you see thecentral but then you after a
(08:42):
while, you can't see what's themain part, because the other
trunks become so strong and theroots become so strong. So it's
very typical. Also, there wassomething a little mystical.
There was these big fires inHawaii, and this particular area
has this amazing banyan tree init. And for some reason, the
(09:05):
banyan tree was left unharmed.
And I think that's sosignificant of the power of the
banyan tree and and it doesshelter. It literally does what
we talked about before that itdoesn't need a fence around it,
but now it's shelters, animals,humans, anything that wants to
(09:28):
come under it. So it's, it's apretty remarkable tree in that
particular way.
Kamala Rose (09:36):
Sometimes it's called a one tree forest.
Nischala Joy Devi (09:39):
Uh huh, that's great. I like that, yeah.
I like that, yes.
Kamala Rose (09:44):
And in the you know, every tree and every
flower has a light, a meaning, amystical meaning, yeah, and an
energy to it, yeah, yeah. TheBanyan tree represents the
process of becoming self awaremeditation. Space and the the
tradition of silence, andnishila and I have we've talked
(10:09):
about this, the importance ofsilence, the importance of
meditation, and really theunique aspect of the yoga
tradition that asks us to besilent daily, to take time and
devote a certain amount of timeevery day to the inner space and
(10:30):
to the inner process. And thisis where the Gita picks up. And
sometimes when we're reading,it'll it's almost a little bit
abrupt that we're changingsubjects from the war now to
silence and to the innerprocess. So when Krishna begins
to speak and to teach Arjuna, hehe says in verse 11, you grieve
(10:55):
for those who do not deserveyour grief, yet you speak words
of wisdom, be like the wise. Donot grieve for the dead or for
the living. And in 12, never wasthere a time when I did not
exist, nor you, nor any being.
Never will there be a timehereafter when any of us shall
(11:18):
cease to be so he's respondingwith almost a completely
different subject. And why is heresponding with this other
subject? Is because he'sanswering the grief, the sorrow
the vashata, the giving upnessof Arjuna with the idea of
(11:41):
something that is beyond thetemporary situation,
Nischala Joy Devi (11:51):
I think this is a really important aspect we
need to bring into our lives. Wetend to think that what's
happening at the moment willnever change. And this is where,
when we talk about a banyantree, I think about the image
that was depicted in a differentscripture, where it talks about
(12:12):
the that we are more like anupside down tree, and those of
our listeners that are involvedat all in asana practice. I
think we can understand this,because if you go into any of
the inverted poses, it not onlybrings a wonderful circulation
(12:35):
to the body and all thewonderful health benefits, but
it also does something else. Itgives us a very different
perspective of life. Andsometimes I will even suggest
that to people, that if they'rehaving a hard time, go up into
shoulder stand and look at itfrom a different view, or go
into headstand and look at itfrom the bottom up, instead of
(12:58):
the top down. So I think thisimage where the roots are in the
heavens and the branches arebelow, is is a wonderful image,
and something that I keepbringing back into my life all
the time, because to me, itsignifies look at this
differently. You may not be inthe belief system of
(13:24):
reincarnation. You may notunderstand this at all, but give
it a chance. Give it a chance.
There's a lot of people thatunderstand this. Go with them
for a little bit if then it itdoesn't make sense, back up. But
the idea that we can look at itfrom a different angle, from a
different place than we'venormally been, I think this is
(13:45):
one of the aspects of spiritualpractice, to never stay where
you are. There's a lot that'ssaid these days, especially in a
yoga therapy setting with a talkabout meeting the student where
they are, which I totally agreewith, but I always add the next
(14:06):
part. Don't leave them there.
Meet them where they are, butthen take them further. And to
me, this is what this thesethese passages are right now he
sees his despondency and to getinto it with him would only make
it worse. Instead, elevate himto another level and show him
(14:31):
that there's more in this worldthan what he's facing at this
moment.
Kamala Rose (14:38):
And he's speaking about the eternal, an eternal
aspect of being that is beyondthe temporary sense of being,
which is a foundation of allEastern thought and philosophy
and really something that wedon't find so much in our
exposure from the West, where I.
The world of spirit is madedistinct from the world of
(15:02):
substance, right? So whenKrishna says you grieve for
those who do not deserve yourgrief, yet you speak words of
wisdom, he is acknowledging asituation and saying, Well, you
have a few you got some pointsthere, my friend, but be like
the wise. Don't grieve foranyone who is living or dead,
(15:25):
right? And this is a very clearview that some things expire,
some things decay, some thingsare in constant change. Yet, as
he says in verse 12, thatthere's also something that
lives on. Never was there a timewhen I did not exist, nor you,
nor any being. So as Arjun islooking at the battlefield, he
(15:49):
changes his perspective entirelyand says, don't look at these as
people who are going to die.
Look at the eternal essence ineveryone. He says, Never will
there be a time hereafter whenany of us will cease to be
which, as nishala said, this isan upside down. This is looking
(16:10):
at it almost as the fool from acompletely different
perspective. I'd just like
Nischala Joy Devi (16:17):
to go back to that word grief for a moment.
I'm not sure. I think it's alittle bit confusing, because it
says the wise do not grieve forthe dead or the living. When we
grieve, it really has nothing todo with anyone else. It's a
(16:37):
situation that has triggered anemotion within us, grieving for
the dead or the living reallybrings no benefit to the dead or
the living, celebrating them,understanding them, having
compassion for them, yes, butgrieving is, in A way, something
(16:59):
that we do to soothe ourselves.
It really doesn't affect otherpeople. And I always feel grief
is so personal. It's such apersonal thing. No one can tell
us how long or how much orAren't you done yet. It's been a
couple of years, and then itcomes in spurts after it has
(17:21):
survived that long period, itnow comes in little drips and
drabs and spurts you seesomething and it triggers you.
So maybe for Arjuna, he would besitting down at a holiday feast
and notice that his family ismissing. His relatives aren't
(17:45):
there. Perhaps even theirfamilies have not come because
their ill feelings. So the griefis not just pure grief. It's
mixed. It's mixed with Did I dothe right thing? Is this right?
(18:05):
Who are these people, the onesthat are dead? I can't make up
for it again. So it's a verycomplicated issue, and that's
why we keep saying, look at itfrom a different angle. Look at
it for a different side. Ifyou're counseling a person who's
grieving, it's much less emotionthan the person that's doing it.
(18:28):
Step back. Look at yourself froma distance. That's really one of
the things he's trying to sayhere.
Kamala Rose (18:39):
You're so right to bring that up. In the last
several years, we've all dealtwith a process of grief, and the
world's changed during covidextraordinarily, I know I've had
a lot of loss, and that whengrief comes to visit, your best
to invite her into your guesthouse for the period that she's
going to stay and let her gowhen it's time. Don't make
Nischala Joy Devi (19:03):
it too comfortable.
Kamala Rose (19:04):
Don't make her too comfortable.
Nischala Joy Devi (19:06):
People always tell me, don't make your guest
room too comfortable. You don'twant them to stay too full.
Kamala Rose (19:11):
That's it. That's it. It'll, it'll. She'll eat you
up. She'll eat you out of houseand home, for sure.
Nischala Joy Devi (19:17):
Yet, grief is an important part of healing.
Yes, we have to grieve. And somepeople grieve immediately, and
some people wait longer becauseit hasn't really sunk in. It
hasn't really happened. And Ithink one of the the agonies of
people when they can't find theremains of their loved ones is
(19:37):
it puts off their grief. Theydon't have the ability, and we
are talking about thepossibility of war here, so we
have to look at all that. Butgrieving, that word grief, is so
important in this text thatsomething to even pull out and
think about, how do you grieve?
What do you. Do? How do youbring solace into that grief? Or
(20:01):
can you speak to someone aboutit, whether it's a small grief
or a major one, it all has to beresolved. Otherwise it will come
back and it will affect usmentally, emotionally and
physically.
Kamala Rose (20:20):
Yes, a complicated and very non linear emotion. So
Krishna here is bringing ourattention with Arjuna to the
part that is eternal, the partthat does live on. To think that
there is a part of who we'velost that lives on, there's a
part of ourselves that lives on.
There's a part of every livingbeing, everything that is alive.
(20:45):
There is an essence that willlive on, that will never cease
to be, regardless of whathappens here in our lives,
whether the body expires from anatural life cycle we passed for
mold age, or in this situation,we're faced with an
(21:07):
extraordinary situation ofviolence and disruption that
threatens to cause an enormouschange to everything we know and
threatens the threatens thelives of those around us.
Unfortunately, in the world welive in, this is so true for so
(21:27):
many people are dealing with warright now, and so this is, you
know, this is meant to be verycomforting to us. And these are
insights that what Krishna isteaching. Are these? Are these
insights about the eternalnature of the self are are best
attributed to the body, that ofof text that we call the
(21:53):
Upanishads, the mystical insightthat is really beyond an
intellectual knowing, a mysticalinsight that comes from knowing,
directly from throughmeditation, through spiritual
awakening, through the theinterior silence, that leads to
(22:13):
a mystical insight that there'sa part of us that lives on,
whether we call that the spiritor the soul or the the eternal
nature of a living being, andthat we are looking at this as
an answer to his sorrow and hitto his despair.
Nischala Joy Devi (22:39):
Let's go back to 212 for just a moment,
because I think there's so muchto said in that small sloka, and
there's a little bit that'sbeing taken for granted. I think
when he says, Never was there atime when I did not exist, nor
you, nor any being, and neverwill there be a time hereafter
(23:02):
when any of us shall cease to beI think that that could a little
bit shake the Western mind,because we don't really think of
things like that. We, we haveour parameters. We understand
birth, or we think we do. Idon't understand how we think we
(23:26):
know birth, because all of asudden you watch a woman
blossom, and next thing youknow, another human being is
coming out of her body. I thinkwe've been a little complacent
about that, the miracle of that,and the sheer awe in seeing this
little head pop out of anotherperson's body. So we think we
(23:50):
understand that, and we leapthrough and we cruise through
life, whatever that is, and atthe end, we watch this person
that we thought was a personsuddenly become an empty shell,
but we don't understand it. Ourminds cannot grasp it, let alone
(24:15):
what happened to make that anempty shell? Where did it go?
Where did my mother go? Wheredid my sister go? Where did my
father? Where are they? Are theystill somewhere where I know so
I think this mystery, this wholething that's been going on, and
(24:35):
when he says it like that to me,I want to go in headstand. I
want to look up and I want tosay, Wow, I never I'll always
exist. Where is that? That meanseveryone will always exist. So
it really shakes up. I thinkthat concept that we have of
(24:55):
birth and death, rather than thecontinuum that. Get into in
further slokas,
Kamala Rose (25:03):
you're reminding me, nishla of several years ago,
I was I was doing some researchon this and getting a lecture
together, and I learned aboutone of the very first, the very
earliest grave sites thatanthropologists found in a cave
(25:25):
called Shanidar. And Shanidarcave is in Iraq, in the Kurdish
territories, and it's one of thelongest, continuously inhabited
places in the world, right? Sothey what made this
Nischala Joy Devi (25:44):
habit, you have to say, what inhabited.
Inhabited
Kamala Rose (25:48):
it was they found, uh, they found it inhabited by
Neanderthals. Oh, okay. What wassignificant about this is, you
know, for so long inanthropology, no one has given
Neanderthals the credit forbeing intelligent, and I feel
found that CRO magnons that wecome from were had all of the
intelligence. But anyway,looking at this grave site, they
(26:10):
found around around the body andthe bones, herbs and flowers,
and this was the first time thatthey found that some sort of
right or ritual had been done tohonor the life of the living
these herbs and flowers were notdidn't just fall into that hole.
(26:32):
They were gathered from the areaand brought there and the
sentiment of using trees andflowers as forms of meaning for
almost unspeakable things suchas life and death found in the
shanadark cave. So this wasabout, this goes back 60,000
(26:53):
years. Wow, wow. Yeah. So Ithink matters of life and death
are things that have caused us.
This has been the impetus forthe search for us to ask these,
the mystery of life and death,to ask these questions, where do
you go? Where did this persongo? What happened? And this is
(27:14):
where these, these beliefsystems were born.
Nischala Joy Devi (27:23):
That's fascinating, because we see
that. We see it in paintings, incaves, we see the expression,
and this is how I see it, as anexpression of their grief, and
the ability to be able toexpress it through flowers,
through drawings. Maybe theydidn't have words in those days,
(27:48):
like we had to talk it through,but they had other ways of
expressing their grief and theirlove for whoever has departed.
But also there's you can't pushaway the fear when we see that
happening. It's I remember when,when my mother died, I was very
(28:11):
much an adult by then, not achild at all. And one day I woke
up and I thought to myself, Wow,now I'm an orphan. And I thought
to myself, What a bizarre thingto think at your age, but the
image came to me that I have nowstepped up to the edge of the
cliff. There's no one in frontof me anymore. It's my turn.
(28:36):
Next, when that will be, wedon't know, but at a certain
point I will jump like everybodyelse does. So all this when it's
brought out in a scripture likethis, I think really, and as far
as I know, the Gita is reallyone of the few that talks about
(28:57):
it in this particular way, soboldly and tied to the war
experience, of course, becausewhen you go to war, you don't
know what's going to happen, howyou will come back. We spoke of
that before, so all this is tiedup with it, and the grief, the
(29:18):
fear, the compassion, the thankGod they're free. That's what
people would ask me. They say,Well, how do you feel about your
mother going and I said, well,she's now free, and so am I.
There's a relief in not watchingher suffer, not watching that on
a day to day basis. But itdoesn't mean you don't feel
(29:42):
grief for it. So I understand alittle bit what Arjun is going
through this push, push me, pullme. I feel this, but I also feel
that because we're multidimensional beings, we just
don't feel one thing
Kamala Rose (29:59):
we start. Feel all of the feelings, especially, as
you said, We're looking here ata fear of death. It opens
Krishna teachings Open With,let's talk about the main issue,
which is the fear of death,which all beings. It's one of
the things that we can say isbelongs to everyone. Sarva,
(30:20):
bhuta Shu in all beings, thereis breath when we are alive,
there's a heartbeat when we arealive, and we all universally
experience a fear of death. Andso addressing this from the very
beginning, I think it's one ofthe reasons that we're drawn to
(30:41):
spiritual teachings and to whatthe religions, the world's
religions, hope to answer for usis what happens. I love verse 13
here, which takes it now a stepfarther, just as one who is
embodied passes through thevarious stages of childhood,
(31:01):
youth and old age, they acquireanother body after death, a calm
mind is not disturbed by this.
Nischala Joy Devi (31:11):
Isn't that the the catch at the end, a calm
mind is not disturbed by this,yes, but a tumultuous mind, it
causes great
Unknown (31:22):
fear. Yeah, great fear.
Yes.
Nischala Joy Devi (31:25):
I also love this, this particular sloka, and
there's a wonderful, what I callDisneyland for adults in in Los
Angeles, as the Hare Krishnacenter there. And they made a
huge diorama of this particularsloka. And if anyone's ever in
(31:49):
the Los Angeles area, I reallysuggest that you go see it,
because it explains it in such aclear way that the mind does not
even have a problem with it,because it's so clear. And what
it shows it's a scene out innature, and it shows a plot of
(32:11):
land covered by grass, and inthat grass you see these little
particles start to come up, andnext thing you see is a little
fetus, and the fetus starts togrow and grow and grow is being
nurtured and fed. And then thenext thing you see is a little
baby being born, and then yousee a toddler, and then a
(32:35):
preteen, and then a teen, and itkeeps lighting up as it goes.
And then you see a full adult,and then you start to see which
is so amazing, this adult startto age and curl up in the same
fetal position that the babycame out. And you show it. It
(32:55):
shows him getting very old, old,old, going into the ground,
being buried and then coming outagain as this beautiful baby.
And it shows the continualcycle, unbroken of this cycle of
life. And when you look at it,there's an awe to look at the
(33:17):
two sides and see a baby curledin fetal position and an old
person in fetal position. Iremember once, I was in a
shopping mall at that point withmy husband's grandmother and his
small niece, who was about twoor three, maybe four at the
(33:37):
time, and we were pushinggrandma in a wheelchair, and we
were pushing the little baby ina in a carriage, and at one
point she was actually verbal.
She was able to speak at thatpoint. And she looked over and
she said, You know, I'm justlike grandma. She said, how? So?
She said, Well, she wearsdiapers, so do I? She doesn't
(33:59):
have any teeth. I don't have anyteeth. It was so innocent. She
rides around in a carriage. Iride around in a carriage. It
was like she she understood theBhagavad Gita at that moment,
that this is what happens. Westart out in a particular way,
(34:19):
and we seem to end up in thatparticular way. So what we're
being told here is, don't have afear of it. This is a natural
flow. This is how life goes.
This is life and death and thenlife and then death.
Kamala Rose (34:39):
The verse here in 13, dehino, Yata de heumaram,
yauvanam, Jara, Tata de Haan,Tara prapatir, deera, statra na
muyati. It's so beautiful. Hetalks about. About the this idea
(35:02):
of the day in which means thebody wearer,
Nischala Joy Devi (35:06):
haha, that's great. I like that. So
Kamala Rose (35:11):
I love this idea that he doesn't say the Atman,
he doesn't say the soul, he saysthe one, the embodied one who is
wearing the body goes throughchildhood, youth and old age,
and then acquires another body.
The wise are not deluded, or acalm mind is not disturbed by
(35:32):
this. So to think that there's apart of ourselves that's
actually wearing this body, theone that you have right now. And
for those of us who have spentsome time studying yoga
philosophy, and you know, thewhole world of yoga this this
idea that there's a part of usthat will live on, that this
(35:56):
body is only temporary, and thatit's not about the body, right?
That our practice is not aboutthe body. Sometimes, with all of
the heavy asana practice, we canbe deluded about that, and we
can think it is about the body.
It can be about, you know,trying to get those great arm
(36:18):
balances, or, you know, we thinkthat that's what yoga is for.
Yet, in reality, we're we'reunderstanding that this body
that is capable of doingextraordinary things is like a
time capsule that we live in fora short period, and we'll have
(36:39):
to give it up, if you havefriends or parents who are in
their twilight years, you know,you've seen this kind of
struggle of, you know, losingcapabilities, you know, becoming
more like a child as you getolder. And I think this insight
can help us so much as we learnto not only gain inabilities
(37:05):
through our lives, build onabilities, gain get good at
things, but also be ready to letgo as we're not so good at it.
If any of you are like me, asyou've gotten older, maybe you
just can't do those arm balancesanymore, or it's not worth it on
your wrists to you know, feellike you've got to practice yoga
(37:29):
in that way, and we come tounderstand yoga differently. I
think as we get older, that thepurpose of those asanas is to
get the mind and body ready forthe more subtle practices, so
that we can sit for a moreprolonged period of time, and we
can come to terms with theseideas about what does happen at
(37:53):
the end of life, and even if Webecome very, very wise and very
knowledgeable on this, we canproactively approach those
twilight years of our lives andknow that we're getting ready to
pass and hopefully have somegrace with letting go of
(38:15):
capabilities as we lose them.
Although I think that's a tallorder,
Nischala Joy Devi (38:21):
it's almost like we have a hidden zipper
that doesn't show until we getto get ready, get near that
point of death, and suddenly wesee a zipper. It reminded me of
a movie. There was a movie aboutthat, about old people being
taken to another planet, orsomething, by people who just
unzipped themselves, andsuddenly, what was it? Cocoon,
(38:45):
cocoon. And you suddenly sawthis light being come out of
this unzipped body. And thatimage just stayed with me,
because it seemed to me almostreal, like that's the way it
actually happens. And havingbeen in medicine for so many
years, I had the privilege ofwatching people transition, and
(39:13):
there's a certain feeling thatyou cannot describe, and some
people actually see lightemanating from their bodies. So
let's just think of this beforediscarding it, even if it
doesn't fit in with your beliefsystem, just think about it for
(39:36):
a while. Notice how it feels andyou may just want to experience
it upside down, even if youcan't go into headstand, just
hang off the bed. Look at itfrom another angle, something.
But don't discard that whichmillions and millions and
millions of people have believedfor 1000s of years. There must
(40:00):
be something to it.
Kamala Rose (40:03):
This idea of reincarnation is a has been a
core belief, I know, for me, forthroughout my life, and for for
many. But as nishala said, itcould be very foreign to you
thinking about the idea of anindwelling part of ourselves
(40:26):
that is present from a smallchild I know as a mother,
bringing a person into the worldand meeting that person as a
baby and watching him grow upand really stay the same on the
inside, through childhood,through adolescence, and now as
(40:47):
an adult, you realize that thereis the same essence in that
person that has grown and becomedeveloped and has manifested in
This world, and it's sobeautiful and mysterious, and
like you watching watchingpeople I love pass away as
(41:08):
equally as mysterious. Yes,through the last breath, from
the first breath entering formand the last breath exiting
form, it's a mystery. And youknow, we really are there many
times. Women are there at thosetimes of transition and are
(41:30):
Usher usher in life and usher itout.
Nischala Joy Devi (41:34):
Sure it out when you're talking about not
the same essence existing. Imean, I love that's why I love
to talk to people who are longtime residents on this planet,
because they have the wisdom.
And I remember once my mother, Ithink, was 92 at the time, and
(41:56):
she called me into her room withI thought something had
happened. That's how excited shewas. And I walked in, and she
said, come here. And I wentover, and she was standing in
front of the mirror, and shepointed to the mirror, and she
said, Who is that old lady inthere? And I looked, and I said,
I don't see an old lady inthere. What were they going to
(42:19):
say? And she said to me, that'snot me, is it? And she said, It
couldn't be. I can't be thatold. I don't feel that inside,
right? And again, I talked toanother friend who was 96 and
she said, I don't know who thisbody belongs to anymore. I don't
feel that so we do get to apoint where we start to realize
(42:43):
that we're not the body, becausethat essence within us is still
strong and powerful. It's justthrough meditation, through
deeper practices, we can realizeit before we're ready to let it
go. We can live in the worldwith the body, but still know
the truths through meditation.
Kamala Rose (43:10):
That sounds like a great place to wrap up. These
are such important verses in theBhagavad Gita krishna's First
teachings, 211, 12 and 13,talking about the eternal nature
of spirit, of the soul in theBhagavad Gita called the Atman.
(43:30):
We'll look forward to picking uphere on our next podcast. We
thank everyone so much forjoining. We're so encouraged to
see all of our listeners andsubscribers and thank you so
much for all of your positivefeedback and for supporting our
podcast. We love gettingtogether and talking about the
Bhagavad Gita, both of us suchdedicated yoga teachers and
(43:54):
dedicated to helping to expandthe insight of the tradition
into the practices of meditationand into the greater philosophy
of yoga. So thanks to ourlisteners for being a part. Make
sure to subscribe on yourfavorite podcast platforms.
Nischala Joy Devi (44:13):
Namaste.
Unknown (44:17):
Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with
nistula Joy Devi and Kamalarose, we would like to express
our gratitude for the ongoingsupport for a women's Gita
podcast and book from yoga givesback a non profit organization
dedicated to the underservedwomen and children of India.
Please join us again for ournext episode coming soon.
(44:41):
Namaste. You.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.