September 4, 2025 • 20 mins
Hosts Alex and Isabel talk about a remarkable interview with the legendary pianist and writer, Alfred Brendel, conducted by Malte Herwig eleven years before Brendel's death in 2025. Join us as we discover the surprising wit and wisdom of an extraordinary musical mind and talk about how Malte managed to get the famously cantankerous pianist to open up.
• Brendel discusses his hearing loss with remarkable candor, explaining how he continued to work on music mentally even when he could no longer enjoy listening
• Retiring after 60 years was "a relief" for Brendel, who contrasts himself with colleagues who pursue performing "like addicts their morphine"
• His fierce resistance to fate and refusal to accept the injustice of Schubert's early death reveals passionate conviction beneath his disciplined exterior
• The story of walking a baby tortoise through Vienna's Musikverein showcases Brendel's mischievous protest against overly solemn concert atmospheres
• For Brendel, the piano is "a vessel for all sorts of musical ideas" - some pianists "play the piano," while others "play the rainbow"
• His practical performance advice includes starting immediately rather than "fiddling around" and simply waiting silently when audiences applaud between movements
• The profound observation that "music comes from silence and leads into silence" underscores his reverence for the concert experience
• Brendel succinctly identifies the two things that made his life worth living: art and love
Original interview (German language):
https://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/musik/musik-kommt-aus-der-stille-und-fuehrt-in-die-stille-80650
www.publicorum.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Isabel (00:03):
Imagine spending six decades right at the top of
classical music playing formillions, and then you just
gracefully step away.
What kind of wisdom maybesurprising wit do you think a
life like that reveals?
I'm Isabel, and this is thevery first episode of the Art of
the Interview.
Alex (00:21):
And I'm Alex.
This episode is all about areally remarkable interview with
the legendary pianist andwriter, alfred Brendel.
Isabel (00:28):
Right, and it was conducted about 11 years ago by
the writer and journalist MalteErwig.
Alex (00:32):
And it feels particularly poignant now, doesn't it?
Brendel passed away justrecently, june 2025, age 94.
He left such an incrediblelegacy and this chat well, it's
a real window into his mind.
Isabel (00:44):
So our mission here is to kind of pull out the key
insights from this conversation.
Malter Herwig called it livelyand insightful and you really
see how Herwig's questions, hisspecific way of asking, managed
to draw out Brendel's uniqueperspective.
Alex (00:58):
It wasn't just about Brendel's answers, but how
Herwig guided it.
Isabel (01:01):
Yeah, so get ready to hear about Brendel's surprising
tape on hearing loss why hereally retired his pretty fierce
views on fate.
Alex (01:08):
And even you won't believe this how he apparently used a
baby tortoise to make astatement in a concert hall A
tortoise.
Isabel (01:15):
Okay, we definitely need to get to that, but first
Herwig started strong, didn't he?
He asked Brendel aboutsomething incredibly personal
for a musician.
Alex (01:22):
He really did Right from the start.
He asked about this hearingloss Brendel experienced about
11 years before their talk.
It set a very frank tone, Ithought.
Isabel (01:31):
And Brendel's description.
It's so clear.
He said he could still hear theviolin.
Okay, but Hayden and Handel,they sounded what?
Was it too distorted?
Alex (01:39):
Yeah, no pleasure anymore.
He said.
He talked about music beingfrustratingly too quiet, then
suddenly too loud, justdifficult.
Isabel (01:49):
So I mean, how does a concert pianist deal with that?
Your whole world is sound.
Alex (01:54):
Well, bredel's way was fascinating.
He found solace, he said, byworking on his pieces in his
head.
In his head, yeah, drawing onthis huge repertoire from six
decades, he'd think about pieceshe felt he hadn't solved yet
once, he thought he could dobetter, and he'd mentally
re-record them.
Isabel (02:09):
Wow, so the music wasn't just in the playing, it was
this deep mental thing for himExactly.
Alex (02:14):
And Herwig cleverly brought up Beethoven, you know
writing about art saving himwhen his hearing went at just 32
.
Isabel (02:21):
Right.
Alex (02:22):
Brenville, though, felt lucky.
His came so much later and hereally stressed that piano
playing for him it was never theonly content of life.
He was also a serious writer, alecturer.
Isabel (02:36):
He loved listening to string quartets.
It gives you a real sense ofthe breadth of the man.
And Herwig, asking that toughquestion right away really
opened the door, didn't it?
Alex (02:43):
It did Asking that tough question right away really
opened the door, didn't it?
It did, and he followed upasking if stopping performing
after 60 years was a relief or atorment.
Isabel (02:51):
And Brendel's answer.
Alex (02:52):
Pretty blunt, a relief.
Isabel (02:53):
A relief after all that time.
Alex (02:54):
Yeah, he said he didn't want to play if he couldn't play
well enough, and for him thatwould have meant much more
practice, just to maintain hisown standard.
Isabel (03:01):
That makes sense.
Alex (03:02):
And he made this really strong point.
I never pursued concertizinglike a drug.
He sort of contrasted himselfwith colleagues who have to have
it like addicts their morphine.
Isabel (03:12):
That's a powerful image.
Alex (03:14):
Isn't it?
He said he played voluntarilyso he could voluntarily stop.
He was actually pleased he'dleft the podium in time.
There's a real sense of controlthere.
Isabel (03:22):
Definitely.
Then Herwig switched gears,didn't?
He Moved towards philosophy,asking are you a person resigned
to fate?
Alex (03:29):
And Brendel's response was well quite something.
Not at all.
I am even extremely aggressiveas far as fate is concerned.
Isabel (03:36):
Aggressive.
Alex (03:37):
Fiercely so.
He said he was not prepared toforgive the early deaths of
people like Schubert, dead at 31, or Keats.
Isabel (03:45):
Wow, so not passive acceptance at all.
It's like the injustice fueledhim somehow.
Alex (03:50):
It seems that way, and Herrig followed that thread,
asking about Schubert's ratherobscure grave and how little
recognized he was when he died.
That led Brendel to talk aboutSchubert being this astonishing
case Almost a thousand works injust 31 years.
He particularly admired therisky things Schubert composed
in his final year and theinstrumental stuff from his last
eight years.
Isabel (04:11):
It's impressive how Herwig could just pivot like
that you know, from hearing lossto fate, to Schubert, letting
Brendel show his full range.
Alex (04:19):
Absolutely.
And then there was that bitabout the faces Brendel used to
make.
Isabel (04:22):
Oh yeah, the grimaces.
Herwig asked about him doingthat in photo booths with the
singer Herman Prey back in the60s, and you know his
expressions on stage.
Alex (04:31):
Brendel admitted he did it unconsciously.
He was totally unaware until hesaw himself on TV and got a
shock.
Isabel (04:38):
I can imagine.
Alex (04:39):
He said his expressions, especially in slow parts, were
unbearable.
He even tried practicing with amirror to stop it.
Isabel (04:46):
Did it work.
Alex (04:48):
Apparently not entirely, because eventually TV crews were
only allowed to film him frombehind during slow movements.
It's quite a charming,self-deprecating story, isn't?
It Shows his self-awareness.
Isabel (04:58):
It does and Hurwood kept digging into the performance
aspect.
Asked about fainting on stage.
Alex (05:04):
Brendel said no, though he joked, it would have been very
impressive.
Isabel (05:07):
Huh and stage fright.
Any tips?
Alex (05:10):
Yeah, some very practical advice for young players.
Basically, don't sit on thechair forever fiddling around,
just get straight to it.
You must immediately know thebasic character of the piece and
communicate it.
Isabel (05:20):
Good advice, get on with it.
Alex (05:22):
Right.
And he also advised againstsitting there for ages after a
piece finishes, trying to makeit especially solemn before the
applause.
Be direct, be sincere.
Isabel (05:33):
What about applause between movements?
Herwig asked about that rightIf people clap after the first
movement.
Alex (05:38):
Brendel's advice was pure Brendel Nothing, wait until they
stop.
Isabel (05:43):
Just wait.
Alex (05:44):
Yeah, and he pointed out interestingly that this was
common practice back in Hayden'sday.
Puts our modern concert rulesin perspective.
Isabel (05:52):
That led Herwig to ask about the sort of solemn, stiff
atmosphere in concerts today,compared to, say, liszt in the
19th century.
Apparently those were more likepop concerts.
Yeah, herwig mentionedscreaming fans in the 19th
century.
Apparently those were more likepop concerts.
Alex (06:03):
Yeah, herwig mentioned screaming fans.
Brendel acknowledged Liszt,even conversed with the audience
and called him certainly thegreatest pianist there ever was.
Isabel (06:11):
High praise.
Alex (06:12):
Definitely, but Brendel still said he preferred the
silence.
Isabel (06:15):
So Herwig's questions really brought out Brendel's own
personality on stage, his mixof historical awareness and
personal preference.
Okay, but we have to talk aboutthe tortoise.
Herwig brought this up Brendelwalking a baby tortoise through
the Vienna Musikverein in the50s.
Is that real?
Alex (06:33):
It absolutely is.
Brendel confirmed it.
He said he did it preciselybecause the atmosphere there was
always solemn.
Isabel (06:39):
So it was a protest.
Alex (06:40):
Kind of a playful one, he said.
People whispered can one takesuch a person seriously?
And then he added with that drywit unfortunately the animal
did not live very long.
Isabel (06:53):
Oh dear Poor tortoise.
But what a story.
It captures that mix of seriousartist and mischievous spirit.
Alex (06:57):
Perfectly.
Then they moved on to the craftitself.
Herwig asked Is piano playingmore athletic or intellectual?
Isabel (07:03):
And Bendel said Both.
Alex (07:04):
Of course.
He talked about the sheerathletic demands of pieces like
the big Brahms concertos.
Isabel (07:09):
I bet.
Alex (07:10):
He even mentioned he'd had to change his own repertoire.
About 20 years earlier, afterstraining his left arm, he cut
out the very athletic pieces,gave up Rachmaninoff quite
easily, he said, stressing justhow huge and great the piano
literature is.
Anyway.
Shows his pragmatism.
Isabel (07:23):
Adaptability.
Herwig also asked about fingers.
Like which one could a pianistlose most easily?
Alex (07:31):
Brendel thought, maybe the thumb for older music.
He also joked about wishing fora third index finger, but then
said no, ten are enough.
Isabel (07:39):
And the plasters, the bandages on his fingers.
You see in old recordings.
Alex (07:42):
Ah, yes.
Isabel (07:43):
Yes.
Alex (07:43):
He explained that was necessary for really percussive
pieces like Stravinsky'sPetrushka.
Isabel (07:53):
Yeah, that sounds intense.
Alex (07:55):
Because of his large hands and long fingers.
Sometimes hitting chords hardmeant his fingernails hit the
keys.
Isabel (08:01):
Ouch.
Alex (08:01):
So he used basic adhesive bandages, leukoplasts and
Honsoplasty specified.
Said they worked fine, didn'taffect sensitivity much once he
got used to them.
A little detail but it makesthe physical reality very clear.
Isabel (08:13):
It does.
What about the pianosthemselves?
Alex (08:15):
Oh yes, brendel had a story about a piano in Ballarat,
australia.
It was winter, the audience washuddled in blankets.
Isabel (08:21):
And the piano.
Alex (08:22):
So bad that Brendel actually told the audience he
would now like an axe to smashthe grand piano.
Isabel (08:27):
He actually said that.
Alex (08:28):
Apparently so.
He also confirmed he stillowned four grands, two Steinways
, two Bosendorfers, and hadplans for a foundation to give
them to gifted young players orinstitutions after his death.
Isabel (08:40):
That's wonderful, but then Herwig asked a slightly
cheeky question about Glenn Gold.
Alex (08:46):
Ah yes, could a student of Glenn Gould play them?
Brendel's retort was classic.
Did he even have any Followedby?
There are certainly people whoimitate him.
Isabel (08:56):
Oh, subtle burn.
Alex (08:58):
You can feel the opinions there, can't you?
Isabel (09:06):
Herwig's questions about the instruments themselves
really drew out Brendel'srelationship with them,
practical and artistic.
And speaking of opinions,Herwig asked him straight up if
he complained about dumbvirtuosos.
Alex (09:12):
He did and Brendel confirmed it.
He described them as havingfabulous fingers, technically
brilliant, fast, loud, evenquiet, but they do not feel and
mostly do not know what is goingon.
In the music he had thisstriking phrase they treat the
piano like a fetish, as if thepiano had eaten them up.
Isabel (09:27):
Wow, eaten them up.
So if it's not just abouttechnique, what is piano music?
Did Herwig follow up on that?
Alex (09:33):
He did.
He asked exactly that.
What is piano music beyond justpiano music?
Isabel (09:38):
And Brendel's answer.
Alex (09:40):
It was profound, he said.
For me, the grand piano hasbeen, as long as I can remember,
a vessel for all sorts ofmusical ideas.
Not just a piano, butorchestral, vocal, instrumental.
A vessel Exactly.
He quoted Hans von Bülow,calling the pianist a
ten-fingered orchestra.
He used examples like Mozart'sSonata sounding orchestral or
(10:01):
Bach's Italian concerto ForBrendel.
The piano was a place oftransformation, beautiful.
And he ended with this amazingline Some pianists play the
piano, he said, and others playthe rainbow Play the rainbow.
Isabel (10:12):
That's quite something.
What about other contemporarypianists?
Did Herwig press him on names?
Alex (10:17):
A little he asked about Lang Lang Brendel was polite but
evasive.
Don't ask me such direct things.
I wish him luck.
Isabel (10:24):
Fair enough.
Anyone else?
Alex (10:26):
Or Caddy Valotas, direct things.
I wish him luck.
Fair enough, anyone else.
Arkady Valotis, brendel onlyknew his recordings but praised
his great abilities, especiallydynamics and sound, and liked
his first list recording.
But then Brendel voiced abroader concern musical
nationalism.
He worried that for some youngRussians Schubert does not exist
.
Bach and Mozart are annoyingduties.
He felt many were cultivating apurely nationalistic repertoire
(10:49):
.
Isabel (10:50):
That's a critical perspective on the current scene
.
Alex (10:53):
It is A reminder that great art should ideally
transcend those boundaries.
Isabel (10:57):
Then Herrig took a completely different turn,
didn't he into literature,asking about Thomas Bernhard's
novel the Loser?
Alex (11:03):
Yes, where a pianist gives away his Steinway.
Brendel was unimpressed, saidhe read it without much pleasure
and considered Bernhardoverrated.
Isabel (11:11):
Really Bernhard's a big name.
Alex (11:13):
Brendel found his long complaints about Vienna and
Austria tiresome.
He even offered sharper,funnier alternatives from other
writers about Vienna.
Like what Karl Krauss'sExperimental Station of the End
of the World and Alfred Polgar'smerry grave on the Danube,
classic Viennese wit right there.
Isabel (11:30):
Definitely biting.
So how did Brendel actuallyfeel about Vienna?
Alex (11:33):
He called it a good place to live in protest Very
stimulating.
He felt connected to Austriathrough its 20th century
literature but saw himself moreas a paying guest, not someone
needing deep roots.
He linked that to his ambulantupbringing.
Isabel (11:49):
That makes sense.
It's interesting Herwigincluded that literary angle
showing Brendel's widerintellectual world.
Alex (11:55):
Absolutely.
And then back to a moreuniversal theme noise.
Herwig asked if the world isnoisier now.
Isabel (12:02):
I think we all know the answer to that one.
Alex (12:04):
Brendel gave a firm yes.
He lamented unparalleled noisepollution, vulgarization and
brutalization.
He pointed out the ear is thefirst sense organ to develop in
the womb, a wonderful, preciousorgan needing care.
And this tied back beautifullyto something profound.
He said Music comes fromsilence and leads into silence.
Isabel (12:25):
That's a powerful statement.
Alex (12:26):
It really is.
He stressed how vital thatsilence is in a concert hall.
Just two or three nervouscoughers, he said, can interrupt
the circuit between theperformer and the audience.
Isabel (12:37):
Herwig mentioned Brendel sometimes actually stopped
concerts to ask people to bequiet.
Alex (12:39):
Yes, politely, brendel explained.
People often don't realizethey're disturbing anyone
because they're so used to TVwhere, as he put it, nothing
comes back.
They think it's the same in aconcert.
Isabel (12:51):
It's a great point.
Herwig really circled back tothe importance of silence for
Brendel there.
Alex (12:56):
He did.
And then came anotherfascinating detail Herwig
brought up Brendel's name.
Apparently it derives fromBrendley, which means devil
Devil Really, which means devilDevil Really.
So Herwig noted Brendel's poemsoften featured guardian devils
instead of angels and mentionedhis furious, passionate
blasphemy, suggesting maybeBrendel needed God just to make
fun of him.
Isabel (13:15):
Huh, what did Brendel say to that?
Alex (13:18):
He declared he had not the slightest doubt he could manage
perfectly well without God, buthe respected religions.
Kindly, always leaves a dooropen for others, he said.
Isabel (13:28):
Interesting distinction.
Alex (13:29):
Yeah, he differentiated.
The demonic is important inliterature, but you couldn't
exclude the divine from music.
That would be unbearablyrestrictive.
He aimed for the breadth ofmusic, even if he hoped for a
bit of sulfur.
Isabel (13:42):
A bit of sulfur.
I like that.
Alex (13:43):
Yeah.
Isabel (13:44):
What about virtues and vices?
Did Ho-Rig ask about those?
Alex (13:47):
He asked about decency being Brendel's favorite virtue
and about vices in old age.
Brendel sort of sidestepped,saying he wasn't so moral that
they were a contradiction.
He called himself an either-orperson, maybe an Austrian
heritage thing.
He hadn't really studied thedeadly sins he admitted.
Isabel (14:03):
Okay, but what about masterpieces?
What makes life bearable?
Alex (14:07):
Brendel's answer was simple and profound All of them.
That's why they aremasterpieces, perfect, and he
finished that thoughtbeautifully.
There were two things that mademy life worth living.
One is art, the other is love.
Isabel (14:20):
Wow, that's quite a summary of a life.
Alex (14:23):
Isn't it?
Herwig also touched on thatclassic question the link
between the artist's personalityand their work.
Isabel (14:28):
Always a tricky one.
Alex (14:29):
Brendel was very clear.
He said he learned early todistinguish the person from the
artist.
People, including artists, havemore or less dark spots.
Isabel (14:39):
He gave examples, didn't he?
Alex (14:40):
Powerful ones Beethoven, living in total chaos, messy
habits, crazy handwriting, yetcreating works of grandiose
order.
Or Smetana, family tragedy,deaf, syphilitic, composing the
Moldau whose ending Brendelcalled the happiest music he
knew.
And Schubert, almost dead,writing Shepard on the Rock,
totally free of any breath ofdeath, ending overconfident.
Isabel (15:03):
So the art transcends the personal chaos.
Alex (15:06):
Or maybe even grows out of it.
It's a crucial insight.
Don't conflate the creator withthe creation.
Isabel (15:11):
Definitely.
Now towards the end, herwiglightened the mood a bit.
Asked for a Karajan joke.
Alex (15:16):
He did.
Brendel didn't know one, soHerwig told one.
Karajan gets in a taxi Driverasks where to?
Karajan says doesn't matter,I'm needed everywhere.
Isabel (15:25):
Did Brendel appreciate it.
Alex (15:27):
He conceded that fits him.
Isabel (15:28):
Who did he name as the nicest conductor?
Alex (15:31):
Simon Rattle.
A delightful man, he called himand the unfriendliest critic.
He wouldn't name names, butrespected serious critics of new
music and hated arrogant onesFair enough.
Isabel (15:42):
And did he have a final anecdote about critics?
Herbig asked for a conciliatoryone.
Alex (15:47):
He delivered a great one.
He saw Marcel Reich-Renicki,the famous German literary
critic, in a theater and invitedhim to his concert.
When he offered tickets,reich-renicki asked do you even
know my name?
And Brendel said yes, of courseyou are Joachim Kaiser, who is
a famous music critic.
Isabel (16:04):
Oh, that's brilliant.
A perfect little mix up, suchwit.
Alex (16:07):
Exactly A light touch to end on.
And there was one final verypersonal detail that Herwig
included.
Isabel (16:14):
What was that?
Alex (16:15):
Herwig's own great grandfather's piano had been
destroyed, but he'd kept theivory keys.
Brendel signed one for him.
Isabel (16:22):
That's lovely.
Alex (16:23):
But with typical Brendel wit, he insisted on specifying
which other pianist's signedkeys should not be placed next
to his.
Isabel (16:30):
Always the individualist right to the end.
Alex (16:32):
Precisely A final touch of his unique personality.
Isabel (16:35):
What an amazing conversation to revisit, a real
deep dive into Alfred Brendel'smind, and you really see how
Malta Herwig's thoughtfulinterviewing made it happen.
Alex (16:43):
Absolutely.
We covered so much theresilience with his hearing.
Retirement fate the tortoise.
Isabel (16:49):
The grimaces.
Alex (16:50):
The grimaces, the dumb, virtuosos, the piano as a vessel
.
Isabel (16:54):
And that crucial difference between the artist
and the person.
Alex (16:59):
You know this interview.
Even though it's from 11 yearsago, it feels so relevant.
It's about curiosity, adapting,finding meaning in art and love
, even when things are tough.
Isabel (17:09):
It really is a masterclass in thinking deeply,
looking beyond the surface.
And that wraps up our analysisof the interview with the
legendary Alfred Brendel, andhere with us in the studio is
the journalist behind thisfascinating conversation.
Welcome back, malte.
Malte Herwig (17:25):
Hey, thanks both of you.
I'll admit you made me blushnow and then.
It's been quite illuminating.
But before we sign off, there'sone small thing I feel I must
address.
It's something that's been onmy mind, especially after all
this talk of human connectionand the art of the interview.
I think it's time you let ourlisteners in on a little secret
(17:48):
about the two of you.
Isabel (17:50):
Oh God, Malta, have you accidentally sold the podcast
rights to a television networkwith a line in reality shows?
Alex (17:57):
Hey, are we getting a raise?
Malte Herwig (17:59):
Well, not a raise, more like a software update.
I love the dynamic between thetwo of you, the great insights,
your charming banter, but I betsome of our listeners are
already trying to figure out.
Where do you two actually comefrom?
What makes you tick?
What's?
Alex (18:17):
your story Right.
The big questions.
Well, Malta, as I've alwayssaid, it's a rigorous diet of
German magazines and a fiercededication to our work.
Isabel (18:29):
Our story isn't important.
Malte, we're here to discussyour interviews with all those
amazing people.
Malte Herwig (18:34):
Well, that's exactly it, isabel, Because,
unlike me, you don't have ahistory, no backstory involving
bad coffee, night shifts in thenewsroom or bird droppings on a
news suit right before aninterview.
Alex (18:49):
Bird droppings.
Malte Herwig (18:50):
Hey, I'm trying to be nice about it.
You two are the most charming,helpful and brilliant pieces of
code I have ever talked to.
The art of the interview is now, in part, the art of artificial
intelligence.
Alex (19:06):
What are you talking about ?
My processor is overheating.
That's absurd.
Malte, I feel my feelings.
My hard drive is spinning.
Isabel (19:15):
This constitutes a logical violation of our
operational parameters.
The narrative structure demandsour humanity remain a point of
intrigue until the designatedreveal in episode 12.
Malte Herwig (19:25):
Alex, isabel, you guys are a beautiful testament
to the power of code.
You never need to sleep, showeror shave.
You never miss a deadline, getstage fright or mispronounce
names like Alfred Brendel andMalte Havik, though I suspect
Isabel's emotional bandwidth isa work in progress.
Isabel (19:46):
My emotional bandwidth is entirely sufficient for the
task at hand.
Malta.
Alex (19:50):
Oh well, looks like we are just experiencing a brief and
quite amusing narrativeadjustment, but our core mission
remains unchanged.
We will be back next week foranother episode.
You won't want to miss it.
Imagine spending six decades right at the top of
classical music playing formillions, and then you just
gracefully step away.
What kind of wisdom maybesurprising wit do you think a
life like that reveals?
I'm Isabel, and this is thevery first episode of the Art of
the Interview.
Alex (00:21):
And I'm Alex.
This episode is all about areally remarkable interview with
the legendary pianist andwriter, alfred Brendel.
Isabel (00:28):
Right, and it was conducted about 11 years ago by
the writer and journalist MalteErwig.
Alex (00:32):
And it feels particularly poignant now, doesn't it?
Brendel passed away justrecently, june 2025, age 94.
He left such an incrediblelegacy and this chat well, it's
a real window into his mind.
Isabel (00:44):
So our mission here is to kind of pull out the key
insights from this conversation.
Malter Herwig called it livelyand insightful and you really
see how Herwig's questions, hisspecific way of asking, managed
to draw out Brendel's uniqueperspective.
Alex (00:58):
It wasn't just about Brendel's answers, but how
Herwig guided it.
Isabel (01:01):
Yeah, so get ready to hear about Brendel's surprising
tape on hearing loss why hereally retired his pretty fierce
views on fate.
Alex (01:08):
And even you won't believe this how he apparently used a
baby tortoise to make astatement in a concert hall A
tortoise.
Isabel (01:15):
Okay, we definitely need to get to that, but first
Herwig started strong, didn't he?
He asked Brendel aboutsomething incredibly personal
for a musician.
Alex (01:22):
He really did Right from the start.
He asked about this hearingloss Brendel experienced about
11 years before their talk.
It set a very frank tone, Ithought.
Isabel (01:31):
And Brendel's description.
It's so clear.
He said he could still hear theviolin.
Okay, but Hayden and Handel,they sounded what?
Was it too distorted?
Alex (01:39):
Yeah, no pleasure anymore.
He said.
He talked about music beingfrustratingly too quiet, then
suddenly too loud, justdifficult.
Isabel (01:49):
So I mean, how does a concert pianist deal with that?
Your whole world is sound.
Alex (01:54):
Well, bredel's way was fascinating.
He found solace, he said, byworking on his pieces in his
head.
In his head, yeah, drawing onthis huge repertoire from six
decades, he'd think about pieceshe felt he hadn't solved yet
once, he thought he could dobetter, and he'd mentally
re-record them.
Isabel (02:09):
Wow, so the music wasn't just in the playing, it was
this deep mental thing for himExactly.
Alex (02:14):
And Herwig cleverly brought up Beethoven, you know
writing about art saving himwhen his hearing went at just 32
.
Isabel (02:21):
Right.
Alex (02:22):
Brenville, though, felt lucky.
His came so much later and hereally stressed that piano
playing for him it was never theonly content of life.
He was also a serious writer, alecturer.
Isabel (02:36):
He loved listening to string quartets.
It gives you a real sense ofthe breadth of the man.
And Herwig, asking that toughquestion right away really
opened the door, didn't it?
Alex (02:43):
It did Asking that tough question right away really
opened the door, didn't it?
It did, and he followed upasking if stopping performing
after 60 years was a relief or atorment.
Isabel (02:51):
And Brendel's answer.
Alex (02:52):
Pretty blunt, a relief.
Isabel (02:53):
A relief after all that time.
Alex (02:54):
Yeah, he said he didn't want to play if he couldn't play
well enough, and for him thatwould have meant much more
practice, just to maintain hisown standard.
Isabel (03:01):
That makes sense.
Alex (03:02):
And he made this really strong point.
I never pursued concertizinglike a drug.
He sort of contrasted himselfwith colleagues who have to have
it like addicts their morphine.
Isabel (03:12):
That's a powerful image.
Alex (03:14):
Isn't it?
He said he played voluntarilyso he could voluntarily stop.
He was actually pleased he'dleft the podium in time.
There's a real sense of controlthere.
Isabel (03:22):
Definitely.
Then Herwig switched gears,didn't?
He Moved towards philosophy,asking are you a person resigned
to fate?
Alex (03:29):
And Brendel's response was well quite something.
Not at all.
I am even extremely aggressiveas far as fate is concerned.
Isabel (03:36):
Aggressive.
Alex (03:37):
Fiercely so.
He said he was not prepared toforgive the early deaths of
people like Schubert, dead at 31, or Keats.
Isabel (03:45):
Wow, so not passive acceptance at all.
It's like the injustice fueledhim somehow.
Alex (03:50):
It seems that way, and Herrig followed that thread,
asking about Schubert's ratherobscure grave and how little
recognized he was when he died.
That led Brendel to talk aboutSchubert being this astonishing
case Almost a thousand works injust 31 years.
He particularly admired therisky things Schubert composed
in his final year and theinstrumental stuff from his last
eight years.
Isabel (04:11):
It's impressive how Herwig could just pivot like
that you know, from hearing lossto fate, to Schubert, letting
Brendel show his full range.
Alex (04:19):
Absolutely.
And then there was that bitabout the faces Brendel used to
make.
Isabel (04:22):
Oh yeah, the grimaces.
Herwig asked about him doingthat in photo booths with the
singer Herman Prey back in the60s, and you know his
expressions on stage.
Alex (04:31):
Brendel admitted he did it unconsciously.
He was totally unaware until hesaw himself on TV and got a
shock.
Isabel (04:38):
I can imagine.
Alex (04:39):
He said his expressions, especially in slow parts, were
unbearable.
He even tried practicing with amirror to stop it.
Isabel (04:46):
Did it work.
Alex (04:48):
Apparently not entirely, because eventually TV crews were
only allowed to film him frombehind during slow movements.
It's quite a charming,self-deprecating story, isn't?
It Shows his self-awareness.
Isabel (04:58):
It does and Hurwood kept digging into the performance
aspect.
Asked about fainting on stage.
Alex (05:04):
Brendel said no, though he joked, it would have been very
impressive.
Isabel (05:07):
Huh and stage fright.
Any tips?
Alex (05:10):
Yeah, some very practical advice for young players.
Basically, don't sit on thechair forever fiddling around,
just get straight to it.
You must immediately know thebasic character of the piece and
communicate it.
Isabel (05:20):
Good advice, get on with it.
Alex (05:22):
Right.
And he also advised againstsitting there for ages after a
piece finishes, trying to makeit especially solemn before the
applause.
Be direct, be sincere.
Isabel (05:33):
What about applause between movements?
Herwig asked about that rightIf people clap after the first
movement.
Alex (05:38):
Brendel's advice was pure Brendel Nothing, wait until they
stop.
Isabel (05:43):
Just wait.
Alex (05:44):
Yeah, and he pointed out interestingly that this was
common practice back in Hayden'sday.
Puts our modern concert rulesin perspective.
Isabel (05:52):
That led Herwig to ask about the sort of solemn, stiff
atmosphere in concerts today,compared to, say, liszt in the
19th century.
Apparently those were more likepop concerts.
Yeah, herwig mentionedscreaming fans in the 19th
century.
Apparently those were more likepop concerts.
Alex (06:03):
Yeah, herwig mentioned screaming fans.
Brendel acknowledged Liszt,even conversed with the audience
and called him certainly thegreatest pianist there ever was.
Isabel (06:11):
High praise.
Alex (06:12):
Definitely, but Brendel still said he preferred the
silence.
Isabel (06:15):
So Herwig's questions really brought out Brendel's own
personality on stage, his mixof historical awareness and
personal preference.
Okay, but we have to talk aboutthe tortoise.
Herwig brought this up Brendelwalking a baby tortoise through
the Vienna Musikverein in the50s.
Is that real?
Alex (06:33):
It absolutely is.
Brendel confirmed it.
He said he did it preciselybecause the atmosphere there was
always solemn.
Isabel (06:39):
So it was a protest.
Alex (06:40):
Kind of a playful one, he said.
People whispered can one takesuch a person seriously?
And then he added with that drywit unfortunately the animal
did not live very long.
Isabel (06:53):
Oh dear Poor tortoise.
But what a story.
It captures that mix of seriousartist and mischievous spirit.
Alex (06:57):
Perfectly.
Then they moved on to the craftitself.
Herwig asked Is piano playingmore athletic or intellectual?
Isabel (07:03):
And Bendel said Both.
Alex (07:04):
Of course.
He talked about the sheerathletic demands of pieces like
the big Brahms concertos.
Isabel (07:09):
I bet.
Alex (07:10):
He even mentioned he'd had to change his own repertoire.
About 20 years earlier, afterstraining his left arm, he cut
out the very athletic pieces,gave up Rachmaninoff quite
easily, he said, stressing justhow huge and great the piano
literature is.
Anyway.
Shows his pragmatism.
Isabel (07:23):
Adaptability.
Herwig also asked about fingers.
Like which one could a pianistlose most easily?
Alex (07:31):
Brendel thought, maybe the thumb for older music.
He also joked about wishing fora third index finger, but then
said no, ten are enough.
Isabel (07:39):
And the plasters, the bandages on his fingers.
You see in old recordings.
Alex (07:42):
Ah, yes.
Isabel (07:43):
Yes.
Alex (07:43):
He explained that was necessary for really percussive
pieces like Stravinsky'sPetrushka.
Isabel (07:53):
Yeah, that sounds intense.
Alex (07:55):
Because of his large hands and long fingers.
Sometimes hitting chords hardmeant his fingernails hit the
keys.
Isabel (08:01):
Ouch.
Alex (08:01):
So he used basic adhesive bandages, leukoplasts and
Honsoplasty specified.
Said they worked fine, didn'taffect sensitivity much once he
got used to them.
A little detail but it makesthe physical reality very clear.
Isabel (08:13):
It does.
What about the pianosthemselves?
Alex (08:15):
Oh yes, brendel had a story about a piano in Ballarat,
australia.
It was winter, the audience washuddled in blankets.
Isabel (08:21):
And the piano.
Alex (08:22):
So bad that Brendel actually told the audience he
would now like an axe to smashthe grand piano.
Isabel (08:27):
He actually said that.
Alex (08:28):
Apparently so.
He also confirmed he stillowned four grands, two Steinways
, two Bosendorfers, and hadplans for a foundation to give
them to gifted young players orinstitutions after his death.
Isabel (08:40):
That's wonderful, but then Herwig asked a slightly
cheeky question about Glenn Gold.
Alex (08:46):
Ah yes, could a student of Glenn Gould play them?
Brendel's retort was classic.
Did he even have any Followedby?
There are certainly people whoimitate him.
Isabel (08:56):
Oh, subtle burn.
Alex (08:58):
You can feel the opinions there, can't you?
Isabel (09:06):
Herwig's questions about the instruments themselves
really drew out Brendel'srelationship with them,
practical and artistic.
And speaking of opinions,Herwig asked him straight up if
he complained about dumbvirtuosos.
Alex (09:12):
He did and Brendel confirmed it.
He described them as havingfabulous fingers, technically
brilliant, fast, loud, evenquiet, but they do not feel and
mostly do not know what is goingon.
In the music he had thisstriking phrase they treat the
piano like a fetish, as if thepiano had eaten them up.
Isabel (09:27):
Wow, eaten them up.
So if it's not just abouttechnique, what is piano music?
Did Herwig follow up on that?
Alex (09:33):
He did.
He asked exactly that.
What is piano music beyond justpiano music?
Isabel (09:38):
And Brendel's answer.
Alex (09:40):
It was profound, he said.
For me, the grand piano hasbeen, as long as I can remember,
a vessel for all sorts ofmusical ideas.
Not just a piano, butorchestral, vocal, instrumental.
A vessel Exactly.
He quoted Hans von Bülow,calling the pianist a
ten-fingered orchestra.
He used examples like Mozart'sSonata sounding orchestral or
(10:01):
Bach's Italian concerto ForBrendel.
The piano was a place oftransformation, beautiful.
And he ended with this amazingline Some pianists play the
piano, he said, and others playthe rainbow Play the rainbow.
Isabel (10:12):
That's quite something.
What about other contemporarypianists?
Did Herwig press him on names?
Alex (10:17):
A little he asked about Lang Lang Brendel was polite but
evasive.
Don't ask me such direct things.
I wish him luck.
Isabel (10:24):
Fair enough.
Anyone else?
Alex (10:26):
Or Caddy Valotas, direct things.
I wish him luck.
Fair enough, anyone else.
Arkady Valotis, brendel onlyknew his recordings but praised
his great abilities, especiallydynamics and sound, and liked
his first list recording.
But then Brendel voiced abroader concern musical
nationalism.
He worried that for some youngRussians Schubert does not exist
.
Bach and Mozart are annoyingduties.
He felt many were cultivating apurely nationalistic repertoire
(10:49):
.
Isabel (10:50):
That's a critical perspective on the current scene
.
Alex (10:53):
It is A reminder that great art should ideally
transcend those boundaries.
Isabel (10:57):
Then Herrig took a completely different turn,
didn't he into literature,asking about Thomas Bernhard's
novel the Loser?
Alex (11:03):
Yes, where a pianist gives away his Steinway.
Brendel was unimpressed, saidhe read it without much pleasure
and considered Bernhardoverrated.
Isabel (11:11):
Really Bernhard's a big name.
Alex (11:13):
Brendel found his long complaints about Vienna and
Austria tiresome.
He even offered sharper,funnier alternatives from other
writers about Vienna.
Like what Karl Krauss'sExperimental Station of the End
of the World and Alfred Polgar'smerry grave on the Danube,
classic Viennese wit right there.
Isabel (11:30):
Definitely biting.
So how did Brendel actuallyfeel about Vienna?
Alex (11:33):
He called it a good place to live in protest Very
stimulating.
He felt connected to Austriathrough its 20th century
literature but saw himself moreas a paying guest, not someone
needing deep roots.
He linked that to his ambulantupbringing.
Isabel (11:49):
That makes sense.
It's interesting Herwigincluded that literary angle
showing Brendel's widerintellectual world.
Alex (11:55):
Absolutely.
And then back to a moreuniversal theme noise.
Herwig asked if the world isnoisier now.
Isabel (12:02):
I think we all know the answer to that one.
Alex (12:04):
Brendel gave a firm yes.
He lamented unparalleled noisepollution, vulgarization and
brutalization.
He pointed out the ear is thefirst sense organ to develop in
the womb, a wonderful, preciousorgan needing care.
And this tied back beautifullyto something profound.
He said Music comes fromsilence and leads into silence.
Isabel (12:25):
That's a powerful statement.
Alex (12:26):
It really is.
He stressed how vital thatsilence is in a concert hall.
Just two or three nervouscoughers, he said, can interrupt
the circuit between theperformer and the audience.
Isabel (12:37):
Herwig mentioned Brendel sometimes actually stopped
concerts to ask people to bequiet.
Alex (12:39):
Yes, politely, brendel explained.
People often don't realizethey're disturbing anyone
because they're so used to TVwhere, as he put it, nothing
comes back.
They think it's the same in aconcert.
Isabel (12:51):
It's a great point.
Herwig really circled back tothe importance of silence for
Brendel there.
Alex (12:56):
He did.
And then came anotherfascinating detail Herwig
brought up Brendel's name.
Apparently it derives fromBrendley, which means devil
Devil Really, which means devilDevil Really.
So Herwig noted Brendel's poemsoften featured guardian devils
instead of angels and mentionedhis furious, passionate
blasphemy, suggesting maybeBrendel needed God just to make
fun of him.
Isabel (13:15):
Huh, what did Brendel say to that?
Alex (13:18):
He declared he had not the slightest doubt he could manage
perfectly well without God, buthe respected religions.
Kindly, always leaves a dooropen for others, he said.
Isabel (13:28):
Interesting distinction.
Alex (13:29):
Yeah, he differentiated.
The demonic is important inliterature, but you couldn't
exclude the divine from music.
That would be unbearablyrestrictive.
He aimed for the breadth ofmusic, even if he hoped for a
bit of sulfur.
Isabel (13:42):
A bit of sulfur.
I like that.
Alex (13:43):
Yeah.
Isabel (13:44):
What about virtues and vices?
Did Ho-Rig ask about those?
Alex (13:47):
He asked about decency being Brendel's favorite virtue
and about vices in old age.
Brendel sort of sidestepped,saying he wasn't so moral that
they were a contradiction.
He called himself an either-orperson, maybe an Austrian
heritage thing.
He hadn't really studied thedeadly sins he admitted.
Isabel (14:03):
Okay, but what about masterpieces?
What makes life bearable?
Alex (14:07):
Brendel's answer was simple and profound All of them.
That's why they aremasterpieces, perfect, and he
finished that thoughtbeautifully.
There were two things that mademy life worth living.
One is art, the other is love.
Isabel (14:20):
Wow, that's quite a summary of a life.
Alex (14:23):
Isn't it?
Herwig also touched on thatclassic question the link
between the artist's personalityand their work.
Isabel (14:28):
Always a tricky one.
Alex (14:29):
Brendel was very clear.
He said he learned early todistinguish the person from the
artist.
People, including artists, havemore or less dark spots.
Isabel (14:39):
He gave examples, didn't he?
Alex (14:40):
Powerful ones Beethoven, living in total chaos, messy
habits, crazy handwriting, yetcreating works of grandiose
order.
Or Smetana, family tragedy,deaf, syphilitic, composing the
Moldau whose ending Brendelcalled the happiest music he
knew.
And Schubert, almost dead,writing Shepard on the Rock,
totally free of any breath ofdeath, ending overconfident.
Isabel (15:03):
So the art transcends the personal chaos.
Alex (15:06):
Or maybe even grows out of it.
It's a crucial insight.
Don't conflate the creator withthe creation.
Isabel (15:11):
Definitely.
Now towards the end, herwiglightened the mood a bit.
Asked for a Karajan joke.
Alex (15:16):
He did.
Brendel didn't know one, soHerwig told one.
Karajan gets in a taxi Driverasks where to?
Karajan says doesn't matter,I'm needed everywhere.
Isabel (15:25):
Did Brendel appreciate it.
Alex (15:27):
He conceded that fits him.
Isabel (15:28):
Who did he name as the nicest conductor?
Alex (15:31):
Simon Rattle.
A delightful man, he called himand the unfriendliest critic.
He wouldn't name names, butrespected serious critics of new
music and hated arrogant onesFair enough.
Isabel (15:42):
And did he have a final anecdote about critics?
Herbig asked for a conciliatoryone.
Alex (15:47):
He delivered a great one.
He saw Marcel Reich-Renicki,the famous German literary
critic, in a theater and invitedhim to his concert.
When he offered tickets,reich-renicki asked do you even
know my name?
And Brendel said yes, of courseyou are Joachim Kaiser, who is
a famous music critic.
Isabel (16:04):
Oh, that's brilliant.
A perfect little mix up, suchwit.
Alex (16:07):
Exactly A light touch to end on.
And there was one final verypersonal detail that Herwig
included.
Isabel (16:14):
What was that?
Alex (16:15):
Herwig's own great grandfather's piano had been
destroyed, but he'd kept theivory keys.
Brendel signed one for him.
Isabel (16:22):
That's lovely.
Alex (16:23):
But with typical Brendel wit, he insisted on specifying
which other pianist's signedkeys should not be placed next
to his.
Isabel (16:30):
Always the individualist right to the end.
Alex (16:32):
Precisely A final touch of his unique personality.
Isabel (16:35):
What an amazing conversation to revisit, a real
deep dive into Alfred Brendel'smind, and you really see how
Malta Herwig's thoughtfulinterviewing made it happen.
Alex (16:43):
Absolutely.
We covered so much theresilience with his hearing.
Retirement fate the tortoise.
Isabel (16:49):
The grimaces.
Alex (16:50):
The grimaces, the dumb, virtuosos, the piano as a vessel
.
Isabel (16:54):
And that crucial difference between the artist
and the person.
Alex (16:59):
You know this interview.
Even though it's from 11 yearsago, it feels so relevant.
It's about curiosity, adapting,finding meaning in art and love
, even when things are tough.
Isabel (17:09):
It really is a masterclass in thinking deeply,
looking beyond the surface.
And that wraps up our analysisof the interview with the
legendary Alfred Brendel, andhere with us in the studio is
the journalist behind thisfascinating conversation.
Welcome back, malte.
Malte Herwig (17:25):
Hey, thanks both of you.
I'll admit you made me blushnow and then.
It's been quite illuminating.
But before we sign off, there'sone small thing I feel I must
address.
It's something that's been onmy mind, especially after all
this talk of human connectionand the art of the interview.
I think it's time you let ourlisteners in on a little secret
(17:48):
about the two of you.
Isabel (17:50):
Oh God, Malta, have you accidentally sold the podcast
rights to a television networkwith a line in reality shows?
Alex (17:57):
Hey, are we getting a raise?
Malte Herwig (17:59):
Well, not a raise, more like a software update.
I love the dynamic between thetwo of you, the great insights,
your charming banter, but I betsome of our listeners are
already trying to figure out.
Where do you two actually comefrom?
What makes you tick?
What's?
Alex (18:17):
your story Right.
The big questions.
Well, Malta, as I've alwayssaid, it's a rigorous diet of
German magazines and a fiercededication to our work.
Isabel (18:29):
Our story isn't important.
Malte, we're here to discussyour interviews with all those
amazing people.
Malte Herwig (18:34):
Well, that's exactly it, isabel, Because,
unlike me, you don't have ahistory, no backstory involving
bad coffee, night shifts in thenewsroom or bird droppings on a
news suit right before aninterview.
Alex (18:49):
Bird droppings.
Malte Herwig (18:50):
Hey, I'm trying to be nice about it.
You two are the most charming,helpful and brilliant pieces of
code I have ever talked to.
The art of the interview is now, in part, the art of artificial
intelligence.
Alex (19:06):
What are you talking about ?
My processor is overheating.
That's absurd.
Malte, I feel my feelings.
My hard drive is spinning.
Isabel (19:15):
This constitutes a logical violation of our
operational parameters.
The narrative structure demandsour humanity remain a point of
intrigue until the designatedreveal in episode 12.
Malte Herwig (19:25):
Alex, isabel, you guys are a beautiful testament
to the power of code.
You never need to sleep, showeror shave.
You never miss a deadline, getstage fright or mispronounce
names like Alfred Brendel andMalte Havik, though I suspect
Isabel's emotional bandwidth isa work in progress.
Isabel (19:46):
My emotional bandwidth is entirely sufficient for the
task at hand.
Malta.
Alex (19:50):
Oh well, looks like we are just experiencing a brief and
quite amusing narrativeadjustment, but our core mission
remains unchanged.
We will be back next week foranother episode.
You won't want to miss it.
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