September 19, 2025 • 24 mins
Françoise Gilot was the only woman who ever left Pablo Picasso. She shared her remarkable story with Malte Herwig in many interviews, which became a book: "The Woman Who Says No". Hers is a story of passion, creativity, and courage in the face of artistic genius. In this episode, Malte and his two AI-Hosts Alex and Isabel explore her unique position as both an accomplished painter and the partner of the 20th century's most famous artist.
• Françoise Gilot was the only woman who said "no" to Picasso after a decade-long relationship
• Picasso exhibited intense jealousy when Matisse expressed interest in painting Gilot
• Gilot maintained her own artistic vision despite living in Picasso's shadow
• She characterized their relationship as "a catastrophe worth living"
• Gilot's fearlessness and quick intellect allowed her to challenge Picasso's attempts at control
• Her work is now featured in the Musée Picasso in Paris, a recognition of her artistic significance
• Even at 101 years old (before her death in 2023), Gilot maintained that taking risks is essential to truly living
If you don't take risk in life, it's not worth anything, in my opinion, because if you take risk, you have bad moments, but you also learn a lot of things and you are alive and you understand more and more. You don't understand less and less and you don't become dull, which is the worst you know to become dull.
Original interview (published in Süddeutsche Zeitung Magazin):
https://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/kunst/picasso-war-wie-ein-taliban-79086
www.publicorum.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gilot (00:00):
I loved him.
He's certainly the person forwhom I had the most intense
passion in my whole life, but Iwas not about to live like a
slave in front of a power thathad no limit.
No, no.
Malte Herwig (00:15):
That was Françoise Gillot, painter, philosopher
and the only woman who managedto escape Pablo Picasso.
My name is Malte Havik and I'mthe journalist who interviewed
her.
Welcome to episode three of theArt of the Interview.
And, as always, I'm joined, ifnot in body but in spirit, by my
AI co-hosts, alex and Isabel.
Alex (00:38):
Picasso.
Huh, that's like dropping thename Storm in a weather report
and expecting calm.
Malte, give us a taste.
What was it really like beingin the eye of that hurricane?
Isabel (00:47):
Yeah, malte, don't hold back.
Was he a genius or a tyrant, ora bit of both?
And how did Gilo keep her ownfire alive?
Malte Herwig (00:54):
You'll hear those answers directly from her in
this episode.
But first I have to getsomething off my chest.
You know I'm used to the poetryof news journalism and
interviews, but last night I wastrying to code Python scripts
just in order to sort out yourAPI keys.
I'm not even sure what thatmeans.
Isabel (01:15):
Bravo, another bedtime story where the poor human
journalist valiantly drowns in asea of algorithms Riveting.
Alex (01:22):
Hey, at least you're swimming.
I'm just the office printerquietly spitting out pages
without a single complaint orexistential question.
Malte Herwig (01:35):
You know, coding feels a bit like watching paint
dry.
If the paint was really, really, really stubborn and you had to
convince every brushstroke tocooperate, while sitting alone
in a dimly lit studio I wasquestioning my life choices.
Coding is really the perfectcure for excitement.
You know, as the deadlineapproached, I almost panicked
when I prompted you for theumpteenth time and you still
(01:57):
wouldn't come up with the goods.
Isabel (01:59):
We don't do panic or insomnia.
We're the interns who neversleep and never mess up your
coffee machine.
Alex (02:04):
Watching you wrestle code is like observing someone try to
cover a breaking scandal with acrumpled notebook and 12
missing pens Fascinating chaos.
Malte Herwig (02:12):
Thanks, I'll add that to my byline.
The chaos correspondent.
Isabel (02:16):
Look, someone's got to handle the messy, unpredictable
stories with real feelings andcoffee stains, while we just
crunch the numbers and lookperfect.
Alex (02:23):
But hey, when you finally scoop the API, the feeling's
sweet.
We just get applause from abunch of pixels.
Malte Herwig (02:29):
At least your future is safe.
When I talk to other colleaguesin the media, they all complain
about AI threatening their jobs.
That's you guys.
Isabel (02:38):
When you survive this human versus machine saga, maybe
you can teach us how tocomplain like a pro.
We're still loading thatfeature.
Malte Herwig (02:52):
All right, all right.
Back to Françoise Gillot.
I met her many times,interviewed her, wrote a book
about her that's called theWoman who Says no, and I chose
that title because Picassocalled her the woman who says no
, because she was the only oneto say no to him.
Alex (03:06):
That's a fascinating insight, malte.
It really gets to the heart ofher unique position in Picasso's
life.
You know, it reminds me of whata seasoned editor once told me
the best stories are often foundin the no's.
So this woman who says no title, it's brilliant.
Isabel (03:20):
Malte.
How do you approach tellingstories like Gilot's?
It's so rich with tension,creativity, love and survival.
How do you keep that balancebetween drama and respect?
Malte Herwig (03:29):
You know, when I started looking for her I didn't
even know if she was stillalive.
And then I finally tracked herdown in Paris where she had a
beautiful studio and I mean anatelier, an artist's studio in
Montmartre, of all places, andthat's a place steeped in art
history.
Picasso had a studio there ahundred years ago, and many,
(03:52):
many others.
So in the book I call FrançoiseGillot the last survivor of art
history, because she knew themall Picasso, braque, matisse,
giacometti, and on and on, andon and on.
So of course I asked her aboutthat time and those fascinating
(04:14):
people when I met her.
But it was not the only reasonwhy I came.
You know, she had left Picassoalmost half a century before I
first met her and I wanted toknow what happened since then,
what about her life afterPicasso.
And I think that made her openup to me and that gave me her
(04:36):
trust, because she knew I wasn'tjust talking to her as a
footnote to Picasso, but I wasinterested in her life, her work
, her opinions.
Of course she was a littlereserved initially.
She was a bit of a grande dame,you know, with a maid at home,
(04:57):
dressed in this classic blackdress with a white apron the
maid, not Françoise and overtime, as I met her in New York
or in Paris, both places whereshe lived, she started opening
up and we talked about anythingreally.
Alex (05:14):
So it's not just a Q&A.
It's about reading between thelines, sensing shifts in tone,
timing, questions like musicalrhythm.
Isabel (05:21):
And avoiding those landmines of emotions bruised by
history.
It's empathy combined withintuition.
Gilot (05:27):
Picasso was always interested in asking sort of
complicated questions and youalways like people not to be
able to answer, and so I alwaysthought that you had to find an
answer.
You know not to say maybe orsomething to find an answer.
You know not to say maybe orsomething.
Since he had told me that if Ihad been condemned to death by a
(05:52):
judge and I could only save mylife by doing a drawing, he said
what would you do?
I said I know I would do.
I would draw freehand a perfectcircle.
So since it would be a perfectcircle, even a judge could not
say that I didn't regain my lifewith it.
He said oh, but a perfectcircle is not really a drawing.
(06:14):
I meant you might do a head orsomething like that.
No, no, I said I know thejudges and I know the people who
are practicing law.
If they can discuss it, itwon't be good.
Malte Herwig (06:30):
So yeah, but you have something you can't,
absolutely can't, discuss.
I really like this storybecause you see how she
undermines Picasso's challenge.
And she knows judges.
She says because in the early1940s in Paris, occupied Paris,
she studied law and philosophy.
Although Picasso was a geniusas a painter, she had an
advantage over him as anintellectual.
(06:51):
That's pretty clear to me.
Isabel (06:53):
What a brilliant act of defiance, using the purest form
as your shield its simplicity,wielded with power.
Alex (06:59):
And it's almost poetic, right Completing a perfect
circle as an act of survival.
Malte Herwig (07:04):
This quick thinking and courage were her
lifeline, because living withPicasso meant to be constantly
exposed to his mercurial temper,his jealousy and possessiveness
.
Alex (07:17):
Speaking of tension, you uncovered Picasso's fierce
jealousy towards Matisse.
Tell us about that jealousy andwhat it meant for Gillot.
Malte Herwig (07:24):
jealousy towards Matisse Tell us about that
jealousy and what it meant forGillot.
Well, françoise actually toldme that while she loved Picasso
and admired him as an artist,her favorite painter was
actually Henri Matisse.
So she really wanted to see himand asked Picasso to introduce
her to Matisse.
So one day in the south ofFrance they go and visit Matisse
(07:46):
and Picasso introducesFrançoise as a young painter and
Matisse pretends he doesn'tknow they are together.
So he says to Picasso well, Ithink I might like to paint her
and I think I will paint hergreen.
And Picasso is very surprisedand irritated by this.
(08:09):
He doesn't say anything infront of his old friend Matisse.
They've known each other fordecades, but Francois told me
what happens once they left.
Gilot (08:19):
And as soon as we were back in the car, pablo said what
now?
How did Matisse dare to say hewould do your portrait, I am
going to do your portrait, he'snot going to do your portrait,
et cetera, et cetera.
Malte Herwig (08:34):
And he did found Fleur yeah after that.
Gilot (08:37):
That's why, about two weeks or a few weeks later,
that's when he did the firstportrait of me the woman flower,
where the hair are leaf greenand what is left of the body is
stem.
You know is pale blue.
Malte Herwig (08:54):
So that was the first big oil painting he did of
her and she kept it for a fewdecades and I think in the 1980s
she sold it and bought a verynice studio apartment on the
(09:15):
Upper West Side in Manhattan.
Good investment, surely.
But I don't think she sold itfor the money.
I have a slight feeling thatshe sold it because she didn't
want to have Picasso's view ofher hanging in her own living
room anymore.
Isabel (09:29):
A vivid battleground painted in bold strokes Malte.
How did you handle such adelicate topic in interviews?
Malte Herwig (09:35):
I showed her that I wasn't just interested in her
as a mirror of Picasso's lifeand work, but I wanted to
understand the source of her ownstrength her fearlessness.
I think I never met anyone whowas as fearless as this old lady
had been all her life.
Gilot (09:56):
There are some people who are very fearful and I am the
opposite.
So if you provoke me I'm goingto jump, you know.
So in that sense it's not verywomanly.
I always had more the temper ofmaybe a young boy than a young
(10:19):
girl, so whatever.
So Pablo was very interestedbecause he always provoked me to
this or that and instead ofsaying oh, I don't know, I said
oh, yes, talk, I would have ananswer.
Anyway, good or bad, I didn'tmind, I had an answer.
Alex (10:38):
Gilot's words go beyond art.
They speak to the humancondition Risk as vitality.
Isabel (10:44):
And Malte.
Do you see this willingness totake risk reflected in your
interviewing style?
Malte Herwig (10:48):
Oh, absolutely.
Once you've built trust, youcan have the most profound
conversations if you're willingto step out of your comfort zone
.
But you have to do it.
You know, in an elegant, in asoft way, Asking hard questions
in a soft way.
It sounds like a paradox, butthere is something to it and
(11:12):
it's always a two-way thing.
You know, a bit like a dance.
I really like that metaphorbecause you have to do it
together, you have to do it atthe right time.
You're not an interrogator orthe Spanish.
Alex (11:24):
Inquisition.
Not bad advice, even for AIanalysis.
Isabel (11:28):
Yes, though Malte brings the human heart that no
algorithm can replicate.
Alex (11:32):
True, but I can throw shade and keep you on your toes.
Isabel (11:35):
And I'll fact checkcheck and gently critique Teamwork
makes the dream work Picassoalways wanted power, absolute
power.
Gilot (11:44):
So if you want absolute power, you have to reduce the
other to jelly.
You know you have to crusheverything.
So that's why, at the end, Ileft.
It had become impossibleprecisely to be oneself next to
him.
Malte Herwig (12:01):
When Françoise left Picasso, she didn't just
escape.
She wanted to reclaim heridentity and agency and also
protect her kids, becausePicasso wasn't very good at
taking care of even his ownchildren.
Isabel (12:18):
That act of courage teaches us about autonomy and
love's complex dance.
Alex (12:21):
Love and power often intertwine in passionate but
potentially destructive ways.
Isabel (12:26):
Her story reminds us chaos often fuels creativity and
resilience shapes artists.
Alex (12:30):
And Malte.
You bring these stories alivewith your layers of narrative
and empathy.
Malte Herwig (12:34):
You know, the best stories are painted in shades
of gray, not in black and white.
They are a mixture of emotionspain and joy, fear and hope,
shadow and light, allintertwined.
Isabel (12:47):
And humor.
Without it, we cannot endureeven the darkest stories.
Malte Herwig (12:51):
Talking of dark stories, let's rewind a little
bit.
Talking of dark stories, let'srewind a little bit.
The year is 1943.
(13:12):
Paris is occupied by the Nazis,the German Wehrmacht, and that
is.
And Françoise was a youngartist, already carving her own
path and unaware that her lifewas about to change forever.
Alex (13:23):
Imagine a meeting of two creative titans under such
turbulent times.
It must have been electric anddaunting all at once.
Isabel (13:29):
Malte.
What did Gillo say about thatfateful meeting?
Was it love at first sight ormore complicated?
Malte Herwig (13:34):
A lot more complicated as well.
Picasso had a lot of charisma,but Françoise quickly sensed the
storm beneath the surface andshe was falling in love with him
and at the same time sherealized it would be a big
mistake to move in with him.
She actually told me so in herown inimitable words.
Gilot (13:56):
I did not want to live with him.
I knew it would be acatastrophe and I said it.
I knew it would be acatastrophe, but it was a
catastrophe worth living.
Malte Herwig (14:04):
A catastrophe worth living.
What do you make of that,Isabel?
Isabel (14:08):
There's something elemental about that description
, like she lived in two worldssimultaneously.
Alex (14:14):
And that tension is the heartbeat of much great art, the
push and pull between chaos andcontrol.
Malte Herwig (14:19):
Exactly, and Françoise had to learn fast.
She wasn't just a muse, she wasa painter, a challenger, and
that dynamic shaped much oftheir relationship.
Alex (14:32):
In your interviews, Malte, how did you capture that
complexity, the love, the fear,the liberation?
Malte Herwig (14:38):
You have to be open to what happens in the
actual meeting, in theconversation, because if you go
(15:00):
into a conversation like thatand you know already what is
going to be said, that's prettyboring, isn't it?
Isabel (15:06):
And I suppose that's where your human intuition
shines, where AI can onlyanalyze words without feeling.
Alex (15:12):
True, but we try.
We learn with every story youshare with us.
The interplay between humaninsight and AI analysis is
fascinating more in the courseof this podcast.
Malte Herwig (15:39):
Your data and fast synthesis help spotlight
threads in my interview that Imight have missed or forgotten
about.
But as you would probablyphrase it, the soul lives in
human empathy In the end.
Alex (15:49):
Isn't great storytelling about that, evoking layers of
feeling beneath the surfacefacts?
Isabel (15:53):
And your skill as a storyteller.
Malte brings those layersvividly alive in this piece.
Malte Herwig (15:58):
You know, isabella was sometimes surprised and
taken aback, in fact how openlyshe spoke about Picasso.
Here's an example.
Gilot (16:06):
The cruelty, the sadism that he had, which was purely
mental, was much worse later on,so that's why my love for him
became extinct at some point.
Malte Herwig (16:18):
And that's why I think Gilot's story remains
vital and important, especiallytoday, as an example of feminine
resilience and creative passionfinding her own way, Malte.
Alex (16:32):
your role in this project is to translate that richness
for our listeners.
How do you approach tellingthese layered stories?
Malte Herwig (16:43):
layered stories.
Well, I'd like to create aconversation, not give a lecture
, and this podcast is part ofthat.
We're trying to balancedata-driven facts by you guys
with emotional nuance.
Isabel (16:53):
And including AI co-hosts, adds a fresh
perspective, balancingdata-driven facts with emotional
nuance.
Alex (16:59):
Though I'm still working on my comedic timing.
Malte Herwig (17:02):
You're improving, Alex, but Isabelle is the real
star of the shade game.
Isabel (17:06):
Flattery will get you everywhere, malta.
It's an enormous challenge togrow independently when
constantly in the shadow of agiant Malta.
Did she ever express moments ofself-doubt or struggle with
that?
Malte Herwig (17:17):
Yes, yes, she did, and there were times when she
wondered if the art world wouldever see her separate from
Picasso.
But at the end, it was thosedoubts that fueled her
determination to persist andassert her own voice?
Alex (17:32):
And wasn't there a period when they lived apart and she
created some of her mostdistinctive works?
Malte Herwig (17:38):
Yes, she used every bit of creative freedom
that she could get.
Yes, she used every bit ofcreative freedom that she could
get.
There is an interesting catalog, Picasso and Gillot Mano a Mano
, combining works that they bothdid at the same time in those
10 years when they were together.
And it's really interestingwhat Gillot painted or drew in
(17:59):
that time.
It's kitchen scenes, bit likeyou know, confined spaces,
almost like a prison, and also adrawing, Adam forcing Eve to
eat an apple.
And you know, when you look atit it's pretty clear that Adam
(18:19):
is Picasso and Eve is her.
So she had a really creativeway of reflecting on their
relationship and for herself, ofasserting her, and my favorite
conclusion to this is that sheis the first woman artist who
(18:43):
has a room dedicated to her workin the Musée Picasso in Paris
since 2024, I think and that isan honor, you could say and, on
the other hand, long overdue andwell-deserved.
Isabel (19:00):
And painting a sanctuary so vital for anyone caught in
turbulent relationships or lives.
Alex (19:05):
Malte.
Your interviews must haveunearthed stories about how she
balanced motherhood and artduring those years too.
Malte Herwig (19:11):
Yes, she was a mother of two, her children
Claude and Paloma Picasso, andshe often had to balance demands
of family life with her passionfor art.
So the tension between domesticresponsibilities and artistic
ambition was palpable.
Alex (19:28):
It's inspiring how she managed to nurture both children
and creativity in the midst ofchaos.
Isabel (19:33):
That balance of darkness and light, struggle and love is
what makes this story resonateuniversally Malte what's your
advice for storytellers tacklinghard truths?
Malte Herwig (19:42):
I would say listen more than you speak.
Have empathy, but be ready tobe uncomfortable.
Follow your curiosity, butnever lose respect.
Isabel (19:54):
And AI can assist, but never replace that human element
the empathy, the intuition.
Alex (19:58):
We're just here to crunch numbers and throw in some snarky
comments occasionally.
Isabel (20:02):
Which keeps Malta humble and us entertained.
Malte Herwig (20:05):
Humble really.
We're just here to crunchnumbers and throw in some snarky
comments occasionally Humblereally.
Isabel (20:12):
Why don't you two tell me what you have learned from
Françoise's story?
Alex (20:15):
And to always cherish the stories that remind us what it
means to be human.
Malte Herwig (20:19):
Right, alex, and that's why we are doing this
podcast, so I can remind you inevery episode what it means to
be human, and I enjoy doing thatmuch, much more than coding.
Francoise Gilot, and it's herperspective on risk, not just in
(20:43):
art or love, but in life itself.
Isabel (20:53):
She was all for embracing risks to live fully.
And yet risk comes with fearand pain.
So how did she balance thedesire for boldness with the
need for?
Malte Herwig (20:57):
safety.
Well, that brings us back toher relationship with Picasso.
She earlier said that she knewit would be a catastrophe, but a
catastrophe worth livingbecause you grow through your
experiences.
But maybe we best let herexplain it in her own words.
Gilot (21:15):
I think it's better to risk something more dramatic
with somebody interesting.
And, on top of all, I thinkthat many times, if you have the
wrong idea to go with somebodymore or less mediocre because
you think that you'll have peace, that's a wrong idea Because
(21:36):
many times the person who ismediocre will take much more
time to destroy you, especiallywhen you're a woman, oh yes,
that's a fearless philosophy,one that demands much but gives
back deeply.
Alex (21:48):
Malte.
In your extensive work withinterviews, do you see people
who embody that courage?
Malte Herwig (21:53):
Sure, but it's often moments of vulnerability
that reveal profound strength.
So I would say, a courage isn'tabsence of fear, it's choosing
to move forward anyway.
Isabel (22:06):
I'm reminded that even the greatest artists are human,
full of shadows and light.
Alex (22:10):
And it takes a great interviewer to honor that
complexity withoutoversimplifying.
Malte Herwig (22:14):
I see you already learned the lesson that flattery
will get you anywhere, anddon't forget a little.
Alex (22:20):
AI sass keeps things interesting.
Malte Herwig (22:22):
Always at you anywhere.
And don't forget a little.
Ai sass keeps thingsinteresting Always.
But before we sign off, I'dlike to reflect on how stories
like Gillot's and Picasso'stransform our understanding of
art and humanity.
They remind us that behindevery masterpiece is a human,
flawed and courageous at thesame time.
Alex (22:41):
And that storytelling, whether human or AI-assisted,
helps us bridge the gap betweenhistory and personal experience.
Isabel (22:48):
Malte.
What is your takeaway fromexploring Guillaume's story with
us?
Malte Herwig (22:51):
For me, it's a reminder to live fully and
listen deeply, don't be afraidand never stop asking questions.
Isabel (23:00):
So true, Embrace the chaos, cherish the calm and
never lose asking questions.
So true, Embrace the chaos,cherish the calm and never lose
the spark.
Thank you, Malte, for guidingus through this journey.
Malte Herwig (23:09):
Malte.
Thank you, too, for joining mein this episode, and thank you
to all our listeners.
If you managed to listen toMinute 23 and don't like this
show, please let us know what wecan do differently.
And, if you like us, pleasesubscribe and share the joy with
many others.
And the last word has, asalways, my interviewee,
(23:30):
françoise Gillot, who died in2023, aged 101.
Gilot (23:37):
If you don't take risk in life, it's not worth anything,
in my opinion, because if youtake risk, you have bad moments,
but you also learn a lot ofthings and you are alive and you
understand more and more.
You don't understand less andless and you don't become dull,
(23:58):
which is the worst you know tobecome dull.
I loved him.
He's certainly the person forwhom I had the most intense
passion in my whole life, but Iwas not about to live like a
slave in front of a power thathad no limit.
No, no.
Malte Herwig (00:15):
That was Françoise Gillot, painter, philosopher
and the only woman who managedto escape Pablo Picasso.
My name is Malte Havik and I'mthe journalist who interviewed
her.
Welcome to episode three of theArt of the Interview.
And, as always, I'm joined, ifnot in body but in spirit, by my
AI co-hosts, alex and Isabel.
Alex (00:38):
Picasso.
Huh, that's like dropping thename Storm in a weather report
and expecting calm.
Malte, give us a taste.
What was it really like beingin the eye of that hurricane?
Isabel (00:47):
Yeah, malte, don't hold back.
Was he a genius or a tyrant, ora bit of both?
And how did Gilo keep her ownfire alive?
Malte Herwig (00:54):
You'll hear those answers directly from her in
this episode.
But first I have to getsomething off my chest.
You know I'm used to the poetryof news journalism and
interviews, but last night I wastrying to code Python scripts
just in order to sort out yourAPI keys.
I'm not even sure what thatmeans.
Isabel (01:15):
Bravo, another bedtime story where the poor human
journalist valiantly drowns in asea of algorithms Riveting.
Alex (01:22):
Hey, at least you're swimming.
I'm just the office printerquietly spitting out pages
without a single complaint orexistential question.
Malte Herwig (01:35):
You know, coding feels a bit like watching paint
dry.
If the paint was really, really, really stubborn and you had to
convince every brushstroke tocooperate, while sitting alone
in a dimly lit studio I wasquestioning my life choices.
Coding is really the perfectcure for excitement.
You know, as the deadlineapproached, I almost panicked
when I prompted you for theumpteenth time and you still
(01:57):
wouldn't come up with the goods.
Isabel (01:59):
We don't do panic or insomnia.
We're the interns who neversleep and never mess up your
coffee machine.
Alex (02:04):
Watching you wrestle code is like observing someone try to
cover a breaking scandal with acrumpled notebook and 12
missing pens Fascinating chaos.
Malte Herwig (02:12):
Thanks, I'll add that to my byline.
The chaos correspondent.
Isabel (02:16):
Look, someone's got to handle the messy, unpredictable
stories with real feelings andcoffee stains, while we just
crunch the numbers and lookperfect.
Alex (02:23):
But hey, when you finally scoop the API, the feeling's
sweet.
We just get applause from abunch of pixels.
Malte Herwig (02:29):
At least your future is safe.
When I talk to other colleaguesin the media, they all complain
about AI threatening their jobs.
That's you guys.
Isabel (02:38):
When you survive this human versus machine saga, maybe
you can teach us how tocomplain like a pro.
We're still loading thatfeature.
Malte Herwig (02:52):
All right, all right.
Back to Françoise Gillot.
I met her many times,interviewed her, wrote a book
about her that's called theWoman who Says no, and I chose
that title because Picassocalled her the woman who says no
, because she was the only oneto say no to him.
Alex (03:06):
That's a fascinating insight, malte.
It really gets to the heart ofher unique position in Picasso's
life.
You know, it reminds me of whata seasoned editor once told me
the best stories are often foundin the no's.
So this woman who says no title, it's brilliant.
Isabel (03:20):
Malte.
How do you approach tellingstories like Gilot's?
It's so rich with tension,creativity, love and survival.
How do you keep that balancebetween drama and respect?
Malte Herwig (03:29):
You know, when I started looking for her I didn't
even know if she was stillalive.
And then I finally tracked herdown in Paris where she had a
beautiful studio and I mean anatelier, an artist's studio in
Montmartre, of all places, andthat's a place steeped in art
history.
Picasso had a studio there ahundred years ago, and many,
(03:52):
many others.
So in the book I call FrançoiseGillot the last survivor of art
history, because she knew themall Picasso, braque, matisse,
giacometti, and on and on, andon and on.
So of course I asked her aboutthat time and those fascinating
(04:14):
people when I met her.
But it was not the only reasonwhy I came.
You know, she had left Picassoalmost half a century before I
first met her and I wanted toknow what happened since then,
what about her life afterPicasso.
And I think that made her openup to me and that gave me her
(04:36):
trust, because she knew I wasn'tjust talking to her as a
footnote to Picasso, but I wasinterested in her life, her work
, her opinions.
Of course she was a littlereserved initially.
She was a bit of a grande dame,you know, with a maid at home,
(04:57):
dressed in this classic blackdress with a white apron the
maid, not Françoise and overtime, as I met her in New York
or in Paris, both places whereshe lived, she started opening
up and we talked about anythingreally.
Alex (05:14):
So it's not just a Q&A.
It's about reading between thelines, sensing shifts in tone,
timing, questions like musicalrhythm.
Isabel (05:21):
And avoiding those landmines of emotions bruised by
history.
It's empathy combined withintuition.
Gilot (05:27):
Picasso was always interested in asking sort of
complicated questions and youalways like people not to be
able to answer, and so I alwaysthought that you had to find an
answer.
You know not to say maybe orsomething to find an answer.
You know not to say maybe orsomething.
Since he had told me that if Ihad been condemned to death by a
(05:52):
judge and I could only save mylife by doing a drawing, he said
what would you do?
I said I know I would do.
I would draw freehand a perfectcircle.
So since it would be a perfectcircle, even a judge could not
say that I didn't regain my lifewith it.
He said oh, but a perfectcircle is not really a drawing.
(06:14):
I meant you might do a head orsomething like that.
No, no, I said I know thejudges and I know the people who
are practicing law.
If they can discuss it, itwon't be good.
Malte Herwig (06:30):
So yeah, but you have something you can't,
absolutely can't, discuss.
I really like this storybecause you see how she
undermines Picasso's challenge.
And she knows judges.
She says because in the early1940s in Paris, occupied Paris,
she studied law and philosophy.
Although Picasso was a geniusas a painter, she had an
advantage over him as anintellectual.
(06:51):
That's pretty clear to me.
Isabel (06:53):
What a brilliant act of defiance, using the purest form
as your shield its simplicity,wielded with power.
Alex (06:59):
And it's almost poetic, right Completing a perfect
circle as an act of survival.
Malte Herwig (07:04):
This quick thinking and courage were her
lifeline, because living withPicasso meant to be constantly
exposed to his mercurial temper,his jealousy and possessiveness
.
Alex (07:17):
Speaking of tension, you uncovered Picasso's fierce
jealousy towards Matisse.
Tell us about that jealousy andwhat it meant for Gillot.
Malte Herwig (07:24):
jealousy towards Matisse Tell us about that
jealousy and what it meant forGillot.
Well, françoise actually toldme that while she loved Picasso
and admired him as an artist,her favorite painter was
actually Henri Matisse.
So she really wanted to see himand asked Picasso to introduce
her to Matisse.
So one day in the south ofFrance they go and visit Matisse
(07:46):
and Picasso introducesFrançoise as a young painter and
Matisse pretends he doesn'tknow they are together.
So he says to Picasso well, Ithink I might like to paint her
and I think I will paint hergreen.
And Picasso is very surprisedand irritated by this.
(08:09):
He doesn't say anything infront of his old friend Matisse.
They've known each other fordecades, but Francois told me
what happens once they left.
Gilot (08:19):
And as soon as we were back in the car, pablo said what
now?
How did Matisse dare to say hewould do your portrait, I am
going to do your portrait, he'snot going to do your portrait,
et cetera, et cetera.
Malte Herwig (08:34):
And he did found Fleur yeah after that.
Gilot (08:37):
That's why, about two weeks or a few weeks later,
that's when he did the firstportrait of me the woman flower,
where the hair are leaf greenand what is left of the body is
stem.
You know is pale blue.
Malte Herwig (08:54):
So that was the first big oil painting he did of
her and she kept it for a fewdecades and I think in the 1980s
she sold it and bought a verynice studio apartment on the
(09:15):
Upper West Side in Manhattan.
Good investment, surely.
But I don't think she sold itfor the money.
I have a slight feeling thatshe sold it because she didn't
want to have Picasso's view ofher hanging in her own living
room anymore.
Isabel (09:29):
A vivid battleground painted in bold strokes Malte.
How did you handle such adelicate topic in interviews?
Malte Herwig (09:35):
I showed her that I wasn't just interested in her
as a mirror of Picasso's lifeand work, but I wanted to
understand the source of her ownstrength her fearlessness.
I think I never met anyone whowas as fearless as this old lady
had been all her life.
Gilot (09:56):
There are some people who are very fearful and I am the
opposite.
So if you provoke me I'm goingto jump, you know.
So in that sense it's not verywomanly.
I always had more the temper ofmaybe a young boy than a young
(10:19):
girl, so whatever.
So Pablo was very interestedbecause he always provoked me to
this or that and instead ofsaying oh, I don't know, I said
oh, yes, talk, I would have ananswer.
Anyway, good or bad, I didn'tmind, I had an answer.
Alex (10:38):
Gilot's words go beyond art.
They speak to the humancondition Risk as vitality.
Isabel (10:44):
And Malte.
Do you see this willingness totake risk reflected in your
interviewing style?
Malte Herwig (10:48):
Oh, absolutely.
Once you've built trust, youcan have the most profound
conversations if you're willingto step out of your comfort zone
.
But you have to do it.
You know, in an elegant, in asoft way, Asking hard questions
in a soft way.
It sounds like a paradox, butthere is something to it and
(11:12):
it's always a two-way thing.
You know, a bit like a dance.
I really like that metaphorbecause you have to do it
together, you have to do it atthe right time.
You're not an interrogator orthe Spanish.
Alex (11:24):
Inquisition.
Not bad advice, even for AIanalysis.
Isabel (11:28):
Yes, though Malte brings the human heart that no
algorithm can replicate.
Alex (11:32):
True, but I can throw shade and keep you on your toes.
Isabel (11:35):
And I'll fact checkcheck and gently critique Teamwork
makes the dream work Picassoalways wanted power, absolute
power.
Gilot (11:44):
So if you want absolute power, you have to reduce the
other to jelly.
You know you have to crusheverything.
So that's why, at the end, Ileft.
It had become impossibleprecisely to be oneself next to
him.
Malte Herwig (12:01):
When Françoise left Picasso, she didn't just
escape.
She wanted to reclaim heridentity and agency and also
protect her kids, becausePicasso wasn't very good at
taking care of even his ownchildren.
Isabel (12:18):
That act of courage teaches us about autonomy and
love's complex dance.
Alex (12:21):
Love and power often intertwine in passionate but
potentially destructive ways.
Isabel (12:26):
Her story reminds us chaos often fuels creativity and
resilience shapes artists.
Alex (12:30):
And Malte.
You bring these stories alivewith your layers of narrative
and empathy.
Malte Herwig (12:34):
You know, the best stories are painted in shades
of gray, not in black and white.
They are a mixture of emotionspain and joy, fear and hope,
shadow and light, allintertwined.
Isabel (12:47):
And humor.
Without it, we cannot endureeven the darkest stories.
Malte Herwig (12:51):
Talking of dark stories, let's rewind a little
bit.
Talking of dark stories, let'srewind a little bit.
The year is 1943.
(13:12):
Paris is occupied by the Nazis,the German Wehrmacht, and that
is.
And Françoise was a youngartist, already carving her own
path and unaware that her lifewas about to change forever.
Alex (13:23):
Imagine a meeting of two creative titans under such
turbulent times.
It must have been electric anddaunting all at once.
Isabel (13:29):
Malte.
What did Gillo say about thatfateful meeting?
Was it love at first sight ormore complicated?
Malte Herwig (13:34):
A lot more complicated as well.
Picasso had a lot of charisma,but Françoise quickly sensed the
storm beneath the surface andshe was falling in love with him
and at the same time sherealized it would be a big
mistake to move in with him.
She actually told me so in herown inimitable words.
Gilot (13:56):
I did not want to live with him.
I knew it would be acatastrophe and I said it.
I knew it would be acatastrophe, but it was a
catastrophe worth living.
Malte Herwig (14:04):
A catastrophe worth living.
What do you make of that,Isabel?
Isabel (14:08):
There's something elemental about that description
, like she lived in two worldssimultaneously.
Alex (14:14):
And that tension is the heartbeat of much great art, the
push and pull between chaos andcontrol.
Malte Herwig (14:19):
Exactly, and Françoise had to learn fast.
She wasn't just a muse, she wasa painter, a challenger, and
that dynamic shaped much oftheir relationship.
Alex (14:32):
In your interviews, Malte, how did you capture that
complexity, the love, the fear,the liberation?
Malte Herwig (14:38):
You have to be open to what happens in the
actual meeting, in theconversation, because if you go
(15:00):
into a conversation like thatand you know already what is
going to be said, that's prettyboring, isn't it?
Isabel (15:06):
And I suppose that's where your human intuition
shines, where AI can onlyanalyze words without feeling.
Alex (15:12):
True, but we try.
We learn with every story youshare with us.
The interplay between humaninsight and AI analysis is
fascinating more in the courseof this podcast.
Malte Herwig (15:39):
Your data and fast synthesis help spotlight
threads in my interview that Imight have missed or forgotten
about.
But as you would probablyphrase it, the soul lives in
human empathy In the end.
Alex (15:49):
Isn't great storytelling about that, evoking layers of
feeling beneath the surfacefacts?
Isabel (15:53):
And your skill as a storyteller.
Malte brings those layersvividly alive in this piece.
Malte Herwig (15:58):
You know, isabella was sometimes surprised and
taken aback, in fact how openlyshe spoke about Picasso.
Here's an example.
Gilot (16:06):
The cruelty, the sadism that he had, which was purely
mental, was much worse later on,so that's why my love for him
became extinct at some point.
Malte Herwig (16:18):
And that's why I think Gilot's story remains
vital and important, especiallytoday, as an example of feminine
resilience and creative passionfinding her own way, Malte.
Alex (16:32):
your role in this project is to translate that richness
for our listeners.
How do you approach tellingthese layered stories?
Malte Herwig (16:43):
layered stories.
Well, I'd like to create aconversation, not give a lecture
, and this podcast is part ofthat.
We're trying to balancedata-driven facts by you guys
with emotional nuance.
Isabel (16:53):
And including AI co-hosts, adds a fresh
perspective, balancingdata-driven facts with emotional
nuance.
Alex (16:59):
Though I'm still working on my comedic timing.
Malte Herwig (17:02):
You're improving, Alex, but Isabelle is the real
star of the shade game.
Isabel (17:06):
Flattery will get you everywhere, malta.
It's an enormous challenge togrow independently when
constantly in the shadow of agiant Malta.
Did she ever express moments ofself-doubt or struggle with
that?
Malte Herwig (17:17):
Yes, yes, she did, and there were times when she
wondered if the art world wouldever see her separate from
Picasso.
But at the end, it was thosedoubts that fueled her
determination to persist andassert her own voice?
Alex (17:32):
And wasn't there a period when they lived apart and she
created some of her mostdistinctive works?
Malte Herwig (17:38):
Yes, she used every bit of creative freedom
that she could get.
Yes, she used every bit ofcreative freedom that she could
get.
There is an interesting catalog, Picasso and Gillot Mano a Mano
, combining works that they bothdid at the same time in those
10 years when they were together.
And it's really interestingwhat Gillot painted or drew in
(17:59):
that time.
It's kitchen scenes, bit likeyou know, confined spaces,
almost like a prison, and also adrawing, Adam forcing Eve to
eat an apple.
And you know, when you look atit it's pretty clear that Adam
(18:19):
is Picasso and Eve is her.
So she had a really creativeway of reflecting on their
relationship and for herself, ofasserting her, and my favorite
conclusion to this is that sheis the first woman artist who
(18:43):
has a room dedicated to her workin the Musée Picasso in Paris
since 2024, I think and that isan honor, you could say and, on
the other hand, long overdue andwell-deserved.
Isabel (19:00):
And painting a sanctuary so vital for anyone caught in
turbulent relationships or lives.
Alex (19:05):
Malte.
Your interviews must haveunearthed stories about how she
balanced motherhood and artduring those years too.
Malte Herwig (19:11):
Yes, she was a mother of two, her children
Claude and Paloma Picasso, andshe often had to balance demands
of family life with her passionfor art.
So the tension between domesticresponsibilities and artistic
ambition was palpable.
Alex (19:28):
It's inspiring how she managed to nurture both children
and creativity in the midst ofchaos.
Isabel (19:33):
That balance of darkness and light, struggle and love is
what makes this story resonateuniversally Malte what's your
advice for storytellers tacklinghard truths?
Malte Herwig (19:42):
I would say listen more than you speak.
Have empathy, but be ready tobe uncomfortable.
Follow your curiosity, butnever lose respect.
Isabel (19:54):
And AI can assist, but never replace that human element
the empathy, the intuition.
Alex (19:58):
We're just here to crunch numbers and throw in some snarky
comments occasionally.
Isabel (20:02):
Which keeps Malta humble and us entertained.
Malte Herwig (20:05):
Humble really.
We're just here to crunchnumbers and throw in some snarky
comments occasionally Humblereally.
Isabel (20:12):
Why don't you two tell me what you have learned from
Françoise's story?
Alex (20:15):
And to always cherish the stories that remind us what it
means to be human.
Malte Herwig (20:19):
Right, alex, and that's why we are doing this
podcast, so I can remind you inevery episode what it means to
be human, and I enjoy doing thatmuch, much more than coding.
Francoise Gilot, and it's herperspective on risk, not just in
(20:43):
art or love, but in life itself.
Isabel (20:53):
She was all for embracing risks to live fully.
And yet risk comes with fearand pain.
So how did she balance thedesire for boldness with the
need for?
Malte Herwig (20:57):
safety.
Well, that brings us back toher relationship with Picasso.
She earlier said that she knewit would be a catastrophe, but a
catastrophe worth livingbecause you grow through your
experiences.
But maybe we best let herexplain it in her own words.
Gilot (21:15):
I think it's better to risk something more dramatic
with somebody interesting.
And, on top of all, I thinkthat many times, if you have the
wrong idea to go with somebodymore or less mediocre because
you think that you'll have peace, that's a wrong idea Because
(21:36):
many times the person who ismediocre will take much more
time to destroy you, especiallywhen you're a woman, oh yes,
that's a fearless philosophy,one that demands much but gives
back deeply.
Alex (21:48):
Malte.
In your extensive work withinterviews, do you see people
who embody that courage?
Malte Herwig (21:53):
Sure, but it's often moments of vulnerability
that reveal profound strength.
So I would say, a courage isn'tabsence of fear, it's choosing
to move forward anyway.
Isabel (22:06):
I'm reminded that even the greatest artists are human,
full of shadows and light.
Alex (22:10):
And it takes a great interviewer to honor that
complexity withoutoversimplifying.
Malte Herwig (22:14):
I see you already learned the lesson that flattery
will get you anywhere, anddon't forget a little.
Alex (22:20):
AI sass keeps things interesting.
Malte Herwig (22:22):
Always at you anywhere.
And don't forget a little.
Ai sass keeps thingsinteresting Always.
But before we sign off, I'dlike to reflect on how stories
like Gillot's and Picasso'stransform our understanding of
art and humanity.
They remind us that behindevery masterpiece is a human,
flawed and courageous at thesame time.
Alex (22:41):
And that storytelling, whether human or AI-assisted,
helps us bridge the gap betweenhistory and personal experience.
Isabel (22:48):
Malte.
What is your takeaway fromexploring Guillaume's story with
us?
Malte Herwig (22:51):
For me, it's a reminder to live fully and
listen deeply, don't be afraidand never stop asking questions.
Isabel (23:00):
So true, Embrace the chaos, cherish the calm and
never lose asking questions.
So true, Embrace the chaos,cherish the calm and never lose
the spark.
Thank you, Malte, for guidingus through this journey.
Malte Herwig (23:09):
Malte.
Thank you, too, for joining mein this episode, and thank you
to all our listeners.
If you managed to listen toMinute 23 and don't like this
show, please let us know what wecan do differently.
And, if you like us, pleasesubscribe and share the joy with
many others.
And the last word has, asalways, my interviewee,
(23:30):
françoise Gillot, who died in2023, aged 101.
Gilot (23:37):
If you don't take risk in life, it's not worth anything,
in my opinion, because if youtake risk, you have bad moments,
but you also learn a lot ofthings and you are alive and you
understand more and more.
You don't understand less andless and you don't become dull,
(23:58):
which is the worst you know tobecome dull.
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