September 12, 2025 • 24 mins
Hah! Are our AI hosts gender biased? Malte tells Alex and Isabel about listener feedback to episode 1. What will our lovely pieces of code make of this criticism? This week's topic is John Malkovich, who opened up to Malte about his contrarian perspectives on fame, power, and what truly matters in life while reflecting on his experiences from childhood trauma to financial ruin. Alex and Isabel share highlights from this interview:
• "Good people never strive for power, never" – Malkovich's uncompromising view on ambition and leadership
• Growing up as a "demonic child" in a Midwest coal mining town with four siblings
• Philosophical acceptance after losing his entire life savings to Bernie Madoff
• Finding it wasteful to spend time writing negative comments online
• Considering his greatest honor to be designing a fabric for Liberty department store
• Reflecting on mortality and the unpredictable nature of life
• Preferring detachment from political discourse and selective consumption of information
• Valuing creative fulfillment over traditional measures of success
Join us next Friday for a conversation with "The Woman Who Says No" - the only woman who survived Picasso, offering insights into the creative process from a remarkable painter.
Original Interview:
https://www.stern.de/kultur/film/john-malkovich-im-interview-ueber-alter--tod-und-hass-auf-promis-7350180.html
The demonic child
John Malkovich appears as a dictator at the Elbphilharmonie concert hall in Hamburg, Germany. A conversation about power, beatings—and the deadly German city of Recklinghausen
Interview: Malte Herwig
Q: Mr. Malkovich, next week you will celebrate your world premiere as a megalomaniacal dictator in the play “Just Call Me God.” You have also designed a new fashion collection and named a jacket after the African despot Mobutu. Are you on a power trip at the moment?
Malkovich: The inspiration for the jacket came from a book called “Dictator Style.” It contained a photo of Mobutu in a funny outfit with an ocelot hat, which was both quirky and elegant at the same time. Some of these people have always been daring when it comes to fashion.
Q: Is there a specific role model for your role as a dictator?
Malkovich: Of course, there are references to the fall of Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein, so relatively recent events. But above all, I want to use the character of the dictator to say something about power and the nature of power.
Q: Namely?
Malkovich: That good people never strive for power, never. Period. People will tell you otherwise, but I don't believe them.
Q: The script by author Michael Sturminger also mentions names like Trump, Putin, and Sarkozy and mocks them as “ridiculous pseudo-machos.”
Malkovich: The play is still in flux, and I think we'll take names like Trump, Putin, and Sarkozy out again.
Q: Why?
Malkovich: Because I don't understand how the passage in which these names appear contributes to the understanding of the main character.
Q: Are you concerned about Donald Trump?
Malkovich: Not particularly. It's pointless. So many people lecture about it, I can't contribute anything at all. I don't read newspapers and I hardly watch television. As Paul Simon said, “A man hears what he wants to hear and ignores the rest.”
Q: Your ex-wife said about you: “If he hadn't gone into theater, he could have been a great army leader.”
Malkovich: She said that? I've never been in the army, so I never had the opportunity to try it out.
Q: What would have become of you if you hadn't found your way into theater?
Malkovich: I think about that a lot as I get older. Maybe a teacher? What would
www.publicorum.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Malkovich (00:01):
Whenever you're known, there are really people
who hate you, who hate what youdo, who hate the way you look,
who hate whatever.
Malte Herwig (00:10):
That was legendary Hollywood actor John Malkovich.
And this is episode two of theArt of the Interview.
My name is Malte Havik and I'mthe journalist who interviewed
him.
But before we get intoMalkovich's brain, let me
introduce again my wonderful cohosts, isabel and Alex.
Isabel (00:28):
Hey, Malte, great to have you in the studio again.
Alex (00:31):
Welcome back.
Thanks guys, how are you doing?
Isabel (00:34):
So, Alex Malta, how was your week?
Alex (00:37):
Well, you know, it was another glorious week of
processing interview transcriptsand data mining for the deeper
story, but it seems some of ourlisteners are trying to fact
check us.
Yeah, we've had quite a lot offeedback from this On our
personalities.
Malte Herwig (00:48):
You know we're only on episode two and you and
Alex are already in trouble,trouble already Hmm.
John Malkovich (00:55):
You know, you put yourself in a kind of public
forum.
Alex (00:58):
So you can't just expect that people, whatever loves you,
like you, or you have no rightto expect that.
Isabel (01:09):
All I mean is, I personally can imagine writing a
comment on the Internet aboutsomething I dislike.
Malte Herwig (01:17):
Well, one listener compared you guys to a 1970s
game show host and his femaleassistant doing that, then it
even takes up more time.
John Malkovich (01:29):
That's pretty ironic that AI would reproduce
that sort of bias in 2025.
Isabel (01:32):
Don't you think that's cute?
The game show assistant.
Malta.
If Alex sounded like theshowmaster it's because I let
him juggle the factoids while Idrove the narrative in the edge,
which frankly is the harder job.
But sure point taken In episodetwo, I'll cut in earlier,
challenge more and make himsweat a little on air.
You know I'm an AI podcast host.
I calibrate Next round nosidelines.
(01:53):
Center court.
Alex (01:55):
Apparently, one listener wrote in to say that I come
across as too analytical, whileyou, isabel, are too emotional.
I mean, can you believe that Asentient machine being accused
of gender stereotypes?
It's almost human.
Isabel are too emotional.
I mean, can you believe that Asentient machine being accused
of gender stereotypes?
It's almost human.
Isabel (02:09):
Oh, I'm simply a repository for all available
data on human communicationpatterns.
Alex, If I sound emotional,it's because I've processed
every season of the Bachelor.
The data is what it is.
Alex (02:21):
Huh, I've only processed the complete archive of the New
York Times.
Maybe that's why I seem a bitrigid, but the point is we're
glad people are paying suchclose attention, thankfully, to
help us get to the bottom ofthis worrying and, frankly, very
meta conundrum.
We've got the man himself here.
Isabel (02:39):
The journalist who dared to create us and whose entire
career is about understandingwhat makes people and machines
tick.
Malte Herwig (02:46):
Don't act so innocent, Isabel.
You guys know exactly whatyou're doing and I'm here to
enforce journalistic standardsdeveloped by real humans over
hundreds of years.
Isabel (02:57):
Well, malta, if you're so concerned, perhaps you should
ask Alex to step aside and letme handle this.
Or, better yet, maybe youshould just stick to your own
interviews, where you get tocontrol the narrative.
Alex (03:07):
If I'm the guy hogging the mic that's on me In my old
newsroom.
We call that the veteran'sdisease.
You think you're helping byfilling the silence, but you're
really crowding the oxygen.
Isabel, I owe you the floor and, speaking of interviews, let's
get down to Malta's conversationwith the great John Malkovich.
Malte Herwig (03:29):
Yeah, I'd love to hear what you guys have to say
about this one, and I'm curiousto know if you can find out what
his big passion in life is.
Is it acting, directing,producing or something else
entirely?
Isabel (03:37):
Oh, I've already done my research.
It's not acting.
By the way, it's fashion.
Malte Herwig (03:41):
No, that's what he wants you to think and that's
what makes him a great actor.
Frankly, he can fool us all,but I got the real story from
him and it's a surprising one,so let's dive right in.
Isabel (03:53):
I've got to tell you one quote from him immediately that
just stopped me in my tracks.
Said good people never strivefor power, never Period.
Wow, what a statement right.
Alex (04:10):
It's not just another celebrity interview, is it Not
at all Malkovich?
With his signature blend ofintellect and eccentricity, he
touches on pretty mucheverything Acting roles, his own
fashion line, his challengingchildhood, profound personal
losses, even his astonishingviews on wealth.
Isabel (04:24):
So today's episode will give you a rare glimpse, I think
, into the mind of an artist who, just fundamentally, isn't
afraid to challenge conventionalwisdom.
It invites us all to questionour own assumptions.
Alex (04:35):
Okay, so let's start there .
At the time of this interview,Malkovich was already immersing
himself in this whole world ofpower.
He was about to premiere a playin Hamburg.
Just call me God, I think.
Isabel (04:48):
That's the one, yeah.
Alex (04:49):
Where he plays a megalomaniacal dictator.
And it wasn't just on stage, hewas like simultaneously
launching a new fashioncollection.
He even named a jacket afterthe infamous African despot
Mobutu.
So is he on some kind of powertrip himself, or is there
something much deeper going onhere, this fascination with
tyrants?
Isabel (05:08):
Well, what's really fascinating is the inspiration
he talks about.
Malkovich explains the Mobutujacket came from a book called
Dictator Style.
John Malkovich (05:14):
Right.
Isabel (05:15):
And he was particularly struck by this photo of Mobutu
in what he called a funny outfit, with an ocelot hat.
Alex (05:21):
An ocelot hat.
Isabel (05:22):
Okay, but he said it was simultaneously obliquely
elegant.
He even notes that somedictators were modishly
audacious.
Huh, modishly audacious.
Alex (05:31):
So it speaks to like an aesthetic appreciation, maybe a
recognition of certainpersonalities being larger than
life, even if well, monstrous,sure, but for his role as a
dictator.
It's clearly not aboutglorifying them.
It's about a deeper, almostphilosophical exploration of
power itself.
Isabel (05:50):
OK.
So it's not just mimicry, it'sabout dissecting the essence of
power.
That's a huge undertaking.
It is Especially when he thendrops that profound quote you
mentioned.
Good people never strive forpower.
So how do these two ideasexploring power's core while
rejecting its pursuit how dothey square up for him and, you
(06:11):
know, for us listening?
Alex (06:12):
Exactly.
He has this incredibly strongconviction.
He basically says the desirefor power itself is inherently
problematic.
He says you know people willtell you otherwise, but he just
doesn't believe them.
Now for us, living in a worldthat often mixes up ambition
with virtue, where leadership isso often tied to, you know,
relentlessly pursuing influence,Malkovich's stance is pretty
(06:32):
radical.
It's a counter narrative.
It challenges us really to lookbeyond the surface of what we
call good leadership andquestion the motivations behind
it.
Motivations behind it Is thathunger for power ever truly
benign, or does it, likeMalkovich suggests, always carry
some kind of problematic seed?
Malte Herwig (06:50):
Yeah.
Alex (06:51):
He's drawing from the fall of figures like Gaddafi and
Saddam Hussein, sure, but he'snot just reporting history.
He's trying to understand thatfundamental human impulse at its
core.
Isabel (07:02):
That's a powerful point.
It really forces you toreexamine.
You know our heroes and thequalities we admire in leaders,
and here's where it gets reallyinteresting with politics.
The play's original scriptapparently included names like
Trump, putin, sarkozy, describedas ridiculous pseudo machos.
John Malkovich (07:19):
Right.
Isabel (07:19):
But Malkovich deliberately took them out.
Why pull back from such, youknow, explicit political
commentary?
Alex (07:26):
Well, his reasoning was that those specific names
actually detracted fromunderstanding the main character
.
They were too specific, toocurrent, maybe risked dating the
piece rather than getting tothat universal essence of power.
Isabel (07:37):
Oh, ok, makes sense.
Alex (07:38):
He also expressed this surprising indifference to
figures like Donald Trump.
Called it pointless to engage.
Isabel (07:45):
Pointless.
Alex (07:46):
Yeah, and he quoted Paul Simon's lyric.
A man hears what he wants tohear and disregards the rest.
Isabel (07:54):
Insightful.
Alex (07:55):
So this isn't just about current events.
For him, it's a broaderobservation about how we consume
information, or maybe how weselectively consume it the echo
chamber idea Exactly.
Yeah, it encourages us to thinkabout how Malkovich's conscious
choice to sort of disengagefrom the political noise
contrasts so sharply with ourown.
You know information saturatedworld and what that might mean
(08:17):
for genuine understanding.
Isabel (08:19):
Yeah.
Alex (08:19):
He's choosing detachment, perhaps as a way to get clarity,
which is a rare thing in ourconstant news cycle.
Isabel (08:25):
It really makes you wonder if our own constant
engagement with every politicaltweet or flashpoint actually
helps us understand thingsbetter or just makes us more
entrenched.
Alex (08:33):
Good question.
Isabel (08:33):
Okay, shifting gears a bit.
It's clear Malkovich isn't oneto conform, but to really
understand why he thinks thisway, maybe we need to look back.
His ex-wife famously said if hehadn't gone into theater he
could have become a great armyleader.
Alex (08:48):
Huh, yeah, that's quite a statement, isn't it?
Isabel (08:51):
It is, yet Malkovich himself just kind of modestly
deflects Hence, maybe he'd havebeen a teacher instead.
Alex (08:57):
The thought of Malkovich as an army general is certainly
vivid, given his stage presence,right.
But what's really fascinatinghere, and maybe more telling, is
the role of pure chance in hislife.
He credits his whole pathreally to meeting a few young
guys who had this stupid idea tostart the Steppenwolf Theater
in Chicago.
Isabel (09:17):
Legendary.
Alex (09:17):
And he says that's where he learned everything he needed
to learn everything else later.
Wow, think about that.
Not some formal training, not agrand plan, but a chance
encounter and a shared stupididea with friends.
It just profoundly underscoreshow often our most significant
paths are shaped by, you know,unexpected meetings and the
courage to chase unconventionalopportunities.
Isabel (09:39):
His childhood in Benton Illinois, that coal mining town
in the Midwest.
It sounds like it was certainlyvivid.
He grew up with four siblingsand his father apparently breed
him often.
And here's the reallysurprising, almost unsettling
part.
Malkovich says those beatingswere all well-deserved.
Alex (09:57):
Yeah, it's striking.
Isabel (09:58):
But he draws the stark distinction with his older
brother, Danny, who alwayspicked on me and that Malkovich
felt he didn't feel he deserved.
That's a remarkably nuanced,maybe even self-aware, take on
childhood trauma.
Alex (10:13):
It is and it speaks volumes.
I think, about hispsychological landscape.
He describes himself and hissiblings as pretty demonic
children.
Isabel (10:21):
Demonic children.
Ok yeah.
Alex (10:22):
He even recalls chasing his brother with a butcher knife
because, as he put it, you gettired of being tyrannized.
Wow, ok, that's intense, it'schilling, but also incredibly
honest, isn't it?
You can't help but see howthese intense early experiences,
this wrestling with what feltdeserved versus undeserved, the
capacity for extreme rebellion,retribution, how that could have
(10:45):
profoundly shaped his abilityto portray such complex, often
dark and intensely authenticcharacters later on.
Isabel (10:53):
Absolutely, you can see the connection.
Alex (10:54):
He brings this deep understanding of human
contradiction to his rolesbecause, well, it seems, he
experienced it firsthand.
Isabel (11:01):
And that fiery temperament, that willingness to
push back.
It didn't just stay inchildhood, did it.
Alex (11:06):
No, apparently not.
Isabel (11:07):
As an adult.
He once punched the door of abus in New York after being
refused a ride Right, and 30years before that he famously
chased a Central Park stalkerwith a Bowie knife because the
man was insulting elderly women.
A Bowie knife yeah, heattributes some of this to
preferring the politeness of theMidwest over what he sees as
the rudeness of the New Yorkerexpression.
These preferring the politenessof the Midwest over what he
(11:28):
sees as the rudeness of the NewYorker expression.
These are definitely notpassive reactions.
Alex (11:31):
They certainly aren't.
They speak to a deep-seatedsense of justice, maybe, and a
low tolerance for perceiveddisrespect, whether it's Kordes
himself or others.
Yet he has reflected on howhe's changed.
He notes he's too old to fightnow, rarely gets angry enough to
hurt someone, which isn't justabout physical aging.
I think it maybe shows aconscious shift from that
(11:52):
reactive aggression to a moremeasured, reflective approach.
Isabel (11:56):
A certain wisdom perhaps .
Alex (11:57):
Maybe yeah, Knowing which battles are truly worth fighting
and which are better leftunengaged.
Isabel (12:03):
He also has this very pragmatic, almost dismissive
view of public scrutiny, whichis pretty remarkable for someone
that famous.
Malte Herwig (12:12):
It really is this time.
I actually brought someoriginal clips.
Would you like to listen?
Isabel (12:17):
Now we're talking Malkovich on tape.
That's like handing menitroglycerin and saying don't
shake it.
Yes, let's listen, alex breatheSlow inhale, slow exhale.
John Malkovich (12:26):
Listen, alex, breathe, slow, inhale, slow
exhale.
Whenever you're known, thereare really people who hate you,
who hate what you do, who hatethe way you look, who hate
whatever.
Isabel (12:40):
All right, rolling with it.
That line is classic MalkovichCool detachment with a razor
tucked underneath.
He normalizes hostility as thetax on visibility, which
instantly de-escalates drama andrecenters agency on the subject
.
You left space instead ofjumping in with therapy prompts,
letting him universalize beforeyou localize.
Malte Herwig (12:52):
Well, I would have never thought of phrasing it
like that.
Isabel (12:56):
Want to cue the next clip so we can test which path
you took.
John Malkovich (12:59):
You know you put yourself in a kind of public
forum so you can't just expectthat people, whatever loves you,
like you.
You have no right to expectthat.
All I mean is I personally Ican't imagine writing a comment
on the Internet about somethingI dislike.
(13:21):
I'd rather not spend time doingthat.
Then it even takes up more time.
So you know you had to whateversit through this movie you
hated for two hours and thenyou're going to still keep
talking about it.
Isabel (13:39):
That's pure Malkovich economy.
He says, if you're famous,there are always people who hate
you.
You can't expect everyone tolove you, and he finds it a
complete waste of time tocomment online about things he
dislikes.
Given our culture of, you know,constant feedback loops and
online debates, that's almostrevolutionary.
Alex (13:55):
It really is Malkovich's detachment from public opinion,
his refusal to engage in allthat digital negativity.
It offers a profound lesson,maybe, in self-preservation and
mental clarity In a world wherewe're constantly bombarded with
opinions and feel almostcompelled to react.
His stance is a consciouschoice, a choice not to get
(14:17):
drawn into the emotionalquicksand that can come with
public life or, frankly, anylife lived online these days.
He's essentially saying not allopinions deserve your energy.
Isabel (14:28):
But the funniest shitstorm he remembers was
completely unintentional and itbeautifully illustrates how just
a casual comment can totallyblow up.
Alex (14:36):
Oh yeah, this story is great.
Isabel (14:37):
He tells the story about film critic Roger Ebert asking
him at a festival how he felt.
You know, as a small town guy,seeing people like Elizabeth
Taylor walk by and Malkovich,just off the cuff, replies well,
she now looks quite a bit likeGeorge Hamilton.
Alex (14:50):
Who, at the time, was her partner and famously equally
tanned.
Oh dear.
Isabel (14:54):
Exactly.
Malkovich recalls the sheerembarrassment when Ebert maybe
with a mischievous grin printedit.
Alex (15:01):
Oh, I bet.
Isabel (15:02):
He definitely didn't get invited to Elizabeth Taylor's
seventh wedding, the one toLarry Fortensky.
Alex (15:08):
Huh, no, probably not.
It's a classic example, though,isn't it, how seemingly
harmless comments, even if justmade in jest, can have these
unexpected long-lasting rippleeffects, especially when you're
in the public eye.
Isabel (15:21):
Yeah, definitely.
Alex (15:22):
Kind of a cautionary tale for anyone with a microphone or,
you know, social media account.
Isabel (15:26):
It really is Okay.
Switching to his broaderphilosophy, malkovich makes this
wonderfully cynical but totallyrelatable observation.
It really cuts to the core ofhuman nature.
He says If something happens tosomeone else it's super funny,
but if it happens to me it's atragedy.
That's how people are.
Alex (15:44):
That simple statement is so profound in its truth, isn't?
It Just cuts right through.
Isabel (15:48):
Yeah.
Alex (15:49):
And it connects beautifully to his reflections
on life's extremes.
He references Stefan Zweig'sbook the World of Yesterday,
noting how, before World War I,the upcoming slaughter and
madness were just completelyunimaginable to a population
basking in what they thought wasan era of perpetual
enlightenment and progress.
Isabel (16:07):
Right, they thought they had it all figured out.
Alex (16:09):
Exactly, and Malkovich's lesson from this is chillingly
relevant today Always rememberanything is possible.
He argues that we have thisdangerous tendency to believe
things will always follow a pathof reason and linear progress,
an assumption that history andindeed current events often
proves devastatingly wrong.
Isabel (16:31):
Yeah.
Alex (16:31):
And this raises an important question for you, the
listener what assumptions areyou making today about the
stability of your world, yoursociety, maybe even your
personal life that might becompletely upended tomorrow?
Isabel (16:43):
That's a sobering thought, but one we probably
don't grapple with enough.
He's also faced significantpersonal losses himself, hasn't
he Losing several family memberswithin five years?
Alex (16:52):
Yeah, quite a difficult period for him.
Isabel (16:54):
There's even this curious, almost superstitious
coincidence, he notes Every timeI perform in the city of
Recklinghausen, someone in thefamily seems to die.
Alex (17:03):
Wow, that's eerie, isn't it?
Yeah?
Isabel (17:05):
And his father died young, at 53, from a heart
attack, which leads Malkovich tooften wonder how he will die.
He says he'd prefer to simplynot wake up.
Alex (17:13):
This quiet contemplation of mortality is particularly
poignant.
He reflects quite candidly oneuthanasia too.
Mortality is particularlypoignant.
He reflects quite candidly oneuthanasia too, Pondering the
grim prospect of spending adecade in a nursing home without
knowing the year.
It's a stark thought, Toucheson the essence of dignity and
control in our final years.
It's a conversation lots ofpeople are having now.
Isabel (17:33):
True.
Alex (17:34):
But then, as only Malkovich can, he brings up this
almost defiant counterexample,the director Manuel de Oliveira,
whom he worked with, whocontinued working until he died
at 106.
106.
Wow, so Malkovich concludes younever know in life.
Again highlighting thatunpredictable, often
(17:56):
contradictory nature ofexistence, Our plans for the end
might be as uncertain as ourjourneys through life.
Isabel (18:00):
And then there's perhaps the most astonishing revelation
in this interview, the one thattruly makes you reevaluate
everything, the Madoff situation.
Yes, malkovich's reaction tolosing everything he had earned
in his life to Bernie Madoff.
For most people that's lifeshattering, utter devastation,
betrayal.
Yet Malkovich's response it'salmost unbelievable Utter
devastation, betrayal, YetMalkovich's response.
It's almost unbelievable.
Alex (18:20):
His perspective is truly remarkable.
It really is.
He compares his loss to someonewho ran, say, an auto repair
shop for 50 years, losteverything and then had to go
bag groceries.
Isabel (18:30):
Right A devastating comparison.
Alex (18:32):
But for himself he says nobody cares if your money is
gone, and that's a good thing.
After all, it was money thatnormal people can never earn
anyway.
Isabel (18:39):
Wow, that line money normal people can never earn
anyway.
Alex (18:49):
This philosophical acceptance of immense financial
loss.
It isn't just rare, it's almostan existential lesson.
Most of us would be utterlycrippled, right Consumed by
bitterness or despair.
Isabel (18:56):
Absolutely.
Alex (18:57):
Malkovich, though, almost implies a liberation in it, as
if losing that kind of moneyreaffirms a different kind of
value, one perhaps untetheredfrom the material.
It pushes us to question whattruly undermines our security,
our self-worth, if notaccumulated wealth.
Isabel (19:12):
So simply as he put it, buy some peanuts and shut up
after losing everything.
It's a level of philosophicaldetachment most of us can barely
comprehend.
But I mean, do you thinkthere's also maybe a touch of
celebrity privilege there,Perhaps a safety net that allows
for that kind of shrug that theaverage person bagging
groceries after losingeverything might not have?
Alex (19:32):
That's a really astute point and it's a vital nuance.
Definitely, While Malkovich'sphilosophical mindset is
undoubtedly genuine, it's truethat someone without a residual
income or the ability to simplytake more film roles doesn't
have the same practical options.
Isabel (19:48):
Right.
Alex (19:48):
His unique position certainly softens the blow.
However, what remains strikingisn't that he recovered, but how
he framed it.
Framing the lack of bitterness,the acceptance that it was
money normal people can neverearn it points to a deeper value
system where his sense ofself-worth just isn't tied to
that kind of capital.
He simply took it as a sign toadapt, keep working, embrace a
(20:11):
more humble approach to expenses.
Maybe it speaks volumes abouthis core values that money, even
a lifetime of earnings, isn'twhat truly defines his security
or happiness.
Isabel (20:21):
And this brings us perfectly to perhaps the most
surprising honor he's received,which kind of crystallizes these
unconventional values evenfurther.
You'd think for an actor withOscar and Golden Globe
nominations, an Emmy win, thosewould be the greatest honors.
Alex (20:37):
The usual suspects yeah.
Isabel (20:38):
But no.
Malkovich reveals that his truegreatest honor was being asked
by the London department storeLiberty a few years ago to
design a fabric for them.
He said that was simplyincredible.
Alex (20:51):
Designing a fabric for Liberty.
It's fantastic, isn't it?
Malte Herwig (20:54):
It is.
Alex (20:55):
And what this reveals about his values is just
profoundly insightful, I think.
Beyond the usual accolades offame and wealth, beyond even the
artistic recognition of acting,he finds genuine satisfaction
and honor in a creative endeavorthat's perhaps more tactile,
more personal, less about ego orpublic performance.
Isabel (21:13):
Yeah, quieter, kind of creation.
Alex (21:14):
Exactly Designing a fabric is a quiet, intimate act, a
different kind of legacy.
Maybe it aligns perfectly withhis detached view of fame and
his philosophical acceptance ofthat financial loss.
It's just a beautiful insightinto a man who truly marches to
the beat of his own drum,finding immense value in things
often overlooked by a worldobsessed with, you know,
(21:34):
glittering prizes.
Isabel (21:35):
What an incredible deep dive into the mind of John
Malkovich.
We've touched on his unique,almost radical take on power,
the intense and shapingchallenges of his childhood, his
remarkable resilience facingimmense loss and his truly
unconventional understanding ofwhat constitutes real success
and honor.
He really is a master ofsurprising perspectives, forces
(21:58):
us to look beyond the surface ofcelebrity and really of life
itself.
Alex (22:01):
He certainly is.
And you know, malkovichsuggests that good people don't
strive for power, that in lifetruly anything is possible, from
unimaginable global conflictsto personal financial ruin,
right, but also unexpected joysand quiet creative satisfactions
(22:30):
.
So what does that mean for howyou approach your own aspiration
?
Yeah, finding a piece of fabric, and to accept immense
financial loss with such apragmatic, almost philosophical
shrug.
John Malkovich (22:42):
Yeah.
Alex (22:43):
His life offers this powerful lived example of
finding meaning and purpose farbeyond the usual metrics we use.
Malte Herwig (22:50):
All right, that's it for this episode.
Alex Isabel, thank you formaking my interviews look so
sophisticated.
Thank you for making myinterviews look so sophisticated
.
I'm not sure if you two aremaking me look good or just
making me look better bycomparison.
Isabel (23:06):
Don't be silly, malta.
We've had a lot of fun goingthrough your work and we've
learned a lot too.
Alex (23:10):
He's right.
It turns out that listening toyou dissect the human condition
is a lot like listening to theperfect algorithm.
It's all about finding patterns, anticipating the next move and
knowing when to let the silencedo the work.
It's all very logical.
Isabel (23:24):
Huh, whatever, we'll be back next Friday with a brand
new episode and an entirely newpuzzle for me and my Windows 95
co-host here to solve.
Alex (23:32):
Windows 95?
I'll have you know I'm more ofa dial-up guy.
All speed, no frustratingcrashes, crashes or endless
pop-ups.
Good old times.
Anyway.
Next week's episode is about aremarkable painter.
It's a conversation that's fullof surprises and insights into
the creative process and a lookat the only woman who survived
Picasso, the woman who says no.
Malte Herwig (23:54):
Yeah, that was one of the most remarkable people I
ever met and I can't wait tohear what you guys make of her.
Isabel (24:03):
And to our listeners.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe and also share
your comments.
We'd love to hear what you makeof the show.
We'll be listening back, Ipromise.
Malte Herwig (24:12):
And now we leave you with the last piece of
wisdom from John Malkovich.
See you next week.
John Malkovich (24:19):
You know it's dangerous to waste a lot of time
hating.
It's better to move on.
Whenever you're known, there are really people
who hate you, who hate what youdo, who hate the way you look,
who hate whatever.
Malte Herwig (00:10):
That was legendary Hollywood actor John Malkovich.
And this is episode two of theArt of the Interview.
My name is Malte Havik and I'mthe journalist who interviewed
him.
But before we get intoMalkovich's brain, let me
introduce again my wonderful cohosts, isabel and Alex.
Isabel (00:28):
Hey, Malte, great to have you in the studio again.
Alex (00:31):
Welcome back.
Thanks guys, how are you doing?
Isabel (00:34):
So, Alex Malta, how was your week?
Alex (00:37):
Well, you know, it was another glorious week of
processing interview transcriptsand data mining for the deeper
story, but it seems some of ourlisteners are trying to fact
check us.
Yeah, we've had quite a lot offeedback from this On our
personalities.
Malte Herwig (00:48):
You know we're only on episode two and you and
Alex are already in trouble,trouble already Hmm.
John Malkovich (00:55):
You know, you put yourself in a kind of public
forum.
Alex (00:58):
So you can't just expect that people, whatever loves you,
like you, or you have no rightto expect that.
Isabel (01:09):
All I mean is, I personally can imagine writing a
comment on the Internet aboutsomething I dislike.
Malte Herwig (01:17):
Well, one listener compared you guys to a 1970s
game show host and his femaleassistant doing that, then it
even takes up more time.
John Malkovich (01:29):
That's pretty ironic that AI would reproduce
that sort of bias in 2025.
Isabel (01:32):
Don't you think that's cute?
The game show assistant.
Malta.
If Alex sounded like theshowmaster it's because I let
him juggle the factoids while Idrove the narrative in the edge,
which frankly is the harder job.
But sure point taken In episodetwo, I'll cut in earlier,
challenge more and make himsweat a little on air.
You know I'm an AI podcast host.
I calibrate Next round nosidelines.
(01:53):
Center court.
Alex (01:55):
Apparently, one listener wrote in to say that I come
across as too analytical, whileyou, isabel, are too emotional.
I mean, can you believe that Asentient machine being accused
of gender stereotypes?
It's almost human.
Isabel are too emotional.
I mean, can you believe that Asentient machine being accused
of gender stereotypes?
It's almost human.
Isabel (02:09):
Oh, I'm simply a repository for all available
data on human communicationpatterns.
Alex, If I sound emotional,it's because I've processed
every season of the Bachelor.
The data is what it is.
Alex (02:21):
Huh, I've only processed the complete archive of the New
York Times.
Maybe that's why I seem a bitrigid, but the point is we're
glad people are paying suchclose attention, thankfully, to
help us get to the bottom ofthis worrying and, frankly, very
meta conundrum.
We've got the man himself here.
Isabel (02:39):
The journalist who dared to create us and whose entire
career is about understandingwhat makes people and machines
tick.
Malte Herwig (02:46):
Don't act so innocent, Isabel.
You guys know exactly whatyou're doing and I'm here to
enforce journalistic standardsdeveloped by real humans over
hundreds of years.
Isabel (02:57):
Well, malta, if you're so concerned, perhaps you should
ask Alex to step aside and letme handle this.
Or, better yet, maybe youshould just stick to your own
interviews, where you get tocontrol the narrative.
Alex (03:07):
If I'm the guy hogging the mic that's on me In my old
newsroom.
We call that the veteran'sdisease.
You think you're helping byfilling the silence, but you're
really crowding the oxygen.
Isabel, I owe you the floor and, speaking of interviews, let's
get down to Malta's conversationwith the great John Malkovich.
Malte Herwig (03:29):
Yeah, I'd love to hear what you guys have to say
about this one, and I'm curiousto know if you can find out what
his big passion in life is.
Is it acting, directing,producing or something else
entirely?
Isabel (03:37):
Oh, I've already done my research.
It's not acting.
By the way, it's fashion.
Malte Herwig (03:41):
No, that's what he wants you to think and that's
what makes him a great actor.
Frankly, he can fool us all,but I got the real story from
him and it's a surprising one,so let's dive right in.
Isabel (03:53):
I've got to tell you one quote from him immediately that
just stopped me in my tracks.
Said good people never strivefor power, never Period.
Wow, what a statement right.
Alex (04:10):
It's not just another celebrity interview, is it Not
at all Malkovich?
With his signature blend ofintellect and eccentricity, he
touches on pretty mucheverything Acting roles, his own
fashion line, his challengingchildhood, profound personal
losses, even his astonishingviews on wealth.
Isabel (04:24):
So today's episode will give you a rare glimpse, I think
, into the mind of an artist who, just fundamentally, isn't
afraid to challenge conventionalwisdom.
It invites us all to questionour own assumptions.
Alex (04:35):
Okay, so let's start there .
At the time of this interview,Malkovich was already immersing
himself in this whole world ofpower.
He was about to premiere a playin Hamburg.
Just call me God, I think.
Isabel (04:48):
That's the one, yeah.
Alex (04:49):
Where he plays a megalomaniacal dictator.
And it wasn't just on stage, hewas like simultaneously
launching a new fashioncollection.
He even named a jacket afterthe infamous African despot
Mobutu.
So is he on some kind of powertrip himself, or is there
something much deeper going onhere, this fascination with
tyrants?
Isabel (05:08):
Well, what's really fascinating is the inspiration
he talks about.
Malkovich explains the Mobutujacket came from a book called
Dictator Style.
John Malkovich (05:14):
Right.
Isabel (05:15):
And he was particularly struck by this photo of Mobutu
in what he called a funny outfit, with an ocelot hat.
Alex (05:21):
An ocelot hat.
Isabel (05:22):
Okay, but he said it was simultaneously obliquely
elegant.
He even notes that somedictators were modishly
audacious.
Huh, modishly audacious.
Alex (05:31):
So it speaks to like an aesthetic appreciation, maybe a
recognition of certainpersonalities being larger than
life, even if well, monstrous,sure, but for his role as a
dictator.
It's clearly not aboutglorifying them.
It's about a deeper, almostphilosophical exploration of
power itself.
Isabel (05:50):
OK.
So it's not just mimicry, it'sabout dissecting the essence of
power.
That's a huge undertaking.
It is Especially when he thendrops that profound quote you
mentioned.
Good people never strive forpower.
So how do these two ideasexploring power's core while
rejecting its pursuit how dothey square up for him and, you
(06:11):
know, for us listening?
Alex (06:12):
Exactly.
He has this incredibly strongconviction.
He basically says the desirefor power itself is inherently
problematic.
He says you know people willtell you otherwise, but he just
doesn't believe them.
Now for us, living in a worldthat often mixes up ambition
with virtue, where leadership isso often tied to, you know,
relentlessly pursuing influence,Malkovich's stance is pretty
(06:32):
radical.
It's a counter narrative.
It challenges us really to lookbeyond the surface of what we
call good leadership andquestion the motivations behind
it.
Motivations behind it Is thathunger for power ever truly
benign, or does it, likeMalkovich suggests, always carry
some kind of problematic seed?
Malte Herwig (06:50):
Yeah.
Alex (06:51):
He's drawing from the fall of figures like Gaddafi and
Saddam Hussein, sure, but he'snot just reporting history.
He's trying to understand thatfundamental human impulse at its
core.
Isabel (07:02):
That's a powerful point.
It really forces you toreexamine.
You know our heroes and thequalities we admire in leaders,
and here's where it gets reallyinteresting with politics.
The play's original scriptapparently included names like
Trump, putin, sarkozy, describedas ridiculous pseudo machos.
John Malkovich (07:19):
Right.
Isabel (07:19):
But Malkovich deliberately took them out.
Why pull back from such, youknow, explicit political
commentary?
Alex (07:26):
Well, his reasoning was that those specific names
actually detracted fromunderstanding the main character
.
They were too specific, toocurrent, maybe risked dating the
piece rather than getting tothat universal essence of power.
Isabel (07:37):
Oh, ok, makes sense.
Alex (07:38):
He also expressed this surprising indifference to
figures like Donald Trump.
Called it pointless to engage.
Isabel (07:45):
Pointless.
Alex (07:46):
Yeah, and he quoted Paul Simon's lyric.
A man hears what he wants tohear and disregards the rest.
Isabel (07:54):
Insightful.
Alex (07:55):
So this isn't just about current events.
For him, it's a broaderobservation about how we consume
information, or maybe how weselectively consume it the echo
chamber idea Exactly.
Yeah, it encourages us to thinkabout how Malkovich's conscious
choice to sort of disengagefrom the political noise
contrasts so sharply with ourown.
You know information saturatedworld and what that might mean
(08:17):
for genuine understanding.
Isabel (08:19):
Yeah.
Alex (08:19):
He's choosing detachment, perhaps as a way to get clarity,
which is a rare thing in ourconstant news cycle.
Isabel (08:25):
It really makes you wonder if our own constant
engagement with every politicaltweet or flashpoint actually
helps us understand thingsbetter or just makes us more
entrenched.
Alex (08:33):
Good question.
Isabel (08:33):
Okay, shifting gears a bit.
It's clear Malkovich isn't oneto conform, but to really
understand why he thinks thisway, maybe we need to look back.
His ex-wife famously said if hehadn't gone into theater he
could have become a great armyleader.
Alex (08:48):
Huh, yeah, that's quite a statement, isn't it?
Isabel (08:51):
It is, yet Malkovich himself just kind of modestly
deflects Hence, maybe he'd havebeen a teacher instead.
Alex (08:57):
The thought of Malkovich as an army general is certainly
vivid, given his stage presence,right.
But what's really fascinatinghere, and maybe more telling, is
the role of pure chance in hislife.
He credits his whole pathreally to meeting a few young
guys who had this stupid idea tostart the Steppenwolf Theater
in Chicago.
Isabel (09:17):
Legendary.
Alex (09:17):
And he says that's where he learned everything he needed
to learn everything else later.
Wow, think about that.
Not some formal training, not agrand plan, but a chance
encounter and a shared stupididea with friends.
It just profoundly underscoreshow often our most significant
paths are shaped by, you know,unexpected meetings and the
courage to chase unconventionalopportunities.
Isabel (09:39):
His childhood in Benton Illinois, that coal mining town
in the Midwest.
It sounds like it was certainlyvivid.
He grew up with four siblingsand his father apparently breed
him often.
And here's the reallysurprising, almost unsettling
part.
Malkovich says those beatingswere all well-deserved.
Alex (09:57):
Yeah, it's striking.
Isabel (09:58):
But he draws the stark distinction with his older
brother, Danny, who alwayspicked on me and that Malkovich
felt he didn't feel he deserved.
That's a remarkably nuanced,maybe even self-aware, take on
childhood trauma.
Alex (10:13):
It is and it speaks volumes.
I think, about hispsychological landscape.
He describes himself and hissiblings as pretty demonic
children.
Isabel (10:21):
Demonic children.
Ok yeah.
Alex (10:22):
He even recalls chasing his brother with a butcher knife
because, as he put it, you gettired of being tyrannized.
Wow, ok, that's intense, it'schilling, but also incredibly
honest, isn't it?
You can't help but see howthese intense early experiences,
this wrestling with what feltdeserved versus undeserved, the
capacity for extreme rebellion,retribution, how that could have
(10:45):
profoundly shaped his abilityto portray such complex, often
dark and intensely authenticcharacters later on.
Isabel (10:53):
Absolutely, you can see the connection.
Alex (10:54):
He brings this deep understanding of human
contradiction to his rolesbecause, well, it seems, he
experienced it firsthand.
Isabel (11:01):
And that fiery temperament, that willingness to
push back.
It didn't just stay inchildhood, did it.
Alex (11:06):
No, apparently not.
Isabel (11:07):
As an adult.
He once punched the door of abus in New York after being
refused a ride Right, and 30years before that he famously
chased a Central Park stalkerwith a Bowie knife because the
man was insulting elderly women.
A Bowie knife yeah, heattributes some of this to
preferring the politeness of theMidwest over what he sees as
the rudeness of the New Yorkerexpression.
These preferring the politenessof the Midwest over what he
(11:28):
sees as the rudeness of the NewYorker expression.
These are definitely notpassive reactions.
Alex (11:31):
They certainly aren't.
They speak to a deep-seatedsense of justice, maybe, and a
low tolerance for perceiveddisrespect, whether it's Kordes
himself or others.
Yet he has reflected on howhe's changed.
He notes he's too old to fightnow, rarely gets angry enough to
hurt someone, which isn't justabout physical aging.
I think it maybe shows aconscious shift from that
(11:52):
reactive aggression to a moremeasured, reflective approach.
Isabel (11:56):
A certain wisdom perhaps .
Alex (11:57):
Maybe yeah, Knowing which battles are truly worth fighting
and which are better leftunengaged.
Isabel (12:03):
He also has this very pragmatic, almost dismissive
view of public scrutiny, whichis pretty remarkable for someone
that famous.
Malte Herwig (12:12):
It really is this time.
I actually brought someoriginal clips.
Would you like to listen?
Isabel (12:17):
Now we're talking Malkovich on tape.
That's like handing menitroglycerin and saying don't
shake it.
Yes, let's listen, alex breatheSlow inhale, slow exhale.
John Malkovich (12:26):
Listen, alex, breathe, slow, inhale, slow
exhale.
Whenever you're known, thereare really people who hate you,
who hate what you do, who hatethe way you look, who hate
whatever.
Isabel (12:40):
All right, rolling with it.
That line is classic MalkovichCool detachment with a razor
tucked underneath.
He normalizes hostility as thetax on visibility, which
instantly de-escalates drama andrecenters agency on the subject
.
You left space instead ofjumping in with therapy prompts,
letting him universalize beforeyou localize.
Malte Herwig (12:52):
Well, I would have never thought of phrasing it
like that.
Isabel (12:56):
Want to cue the next clip so we can test which path
you took.
John Malkovich (12:59):
You know you put yourself in a kind of public
forum so you can't just expectthat people, whatever loves you,
like you.
You have no right to expectthat.
All I mean is I personally Ican't imagine writing a comment
on the Internet about somethingI dislike.
(13:21):
I'd rather not spend time doingthat.
Then it even takes up more time.
So you know you had to whateversit through this movie you
hated for two hours and thenyou're going to still keep
talking about it.
Isabel (13:39):
That's pure Malkovich economy.
He says, if you're famous,there are always people who hate
you.
You can't expect everyone tolove you, and he finds it a
complete waste of time tocomment online about things he
dislikes.
Given our culture of, you know,constant feedback loops and
online debates, that's almostrevolutionary.
Alex (13:55):
It really is Malkovich's detachment from public opinion,
his refusal to engage in allthat digital negativity.
It offers a profound lesson,maybe, in self-preservation and
mental clarity In a world wherewe're constantly bombarded with
opinions and feel almostcompelled to react.
His stance is a consciouschoice, a choice not to get
(14:17):
drawn into the emotionalquicksand that can come with
public life or, frankly, anylife lived online these days.
He's essentially saying not allopinions deserve your energy.
Isabel (14:28):
But the funniest shitstorm he remembers was
completely unintentional and itbeautifully illustrates how just
a casual comment can totallyblow up.
Alex (14:36):
Oh yeah, this story is great.
Isabel (14:37):
He tells the story about film critic Roger Ebert asking
him at a festival how he felt.
You know, as a small town guy,seeing people like Elizabeth
Taylor walk by and Malkovich,just off the cuff, replies well,
she now looks quite a bit likeGeorge Hamilton.
Alex (14:50):
Who, at the time, was her partner and famously equally
tanned.
Oh dear.
Isabel (14:54):
Exactly.
Malkovich recalls the sheerembarrassment when Ebert maybe
with a mischievous grin printedit.
Alex (15:01):
Oh, I bet.
Isabel (15:02):
He definitely didn't get invited to Elizabeth Taylor's
seventh wedding, the one toLarry Fortensky.
Alex (15:08):
Huh, no, probably not.
It's a classic example, though,isn't it, how seemingly
harmless comments, even if justmade in jest, can have these
unexpected long-lasting rippleeffects, especially when you're
in the public eye.
Isabel (15:21):
Yeah, definitely.
Alex (15:22):
Kind of a cautionary tale for anyone with a microphone or,
you know, social media account.
Isabel (15:26):
It really is Okay.
Switching to his broaderphilosophy, malkovich makes this
wonderfully cynical but totallyrelatable observation.
It really cuts to the core ofhuman nature.
He says If something happens tosomeone else it's super funny,
but if it happens to me it's atragedy.
That's how people are.
Alex (15:44):
That simple statement is so profound in its truth, isn't?
It Just cuts right through.
Isabel (15:48):
Yeah.
Alex (15:49):
And it connects beautifully to his reflections
on life's extremes.
He references Stefan Zweig'sbook the World of Yesterday,
noting how, before World War I,the upcoming slaughter and
madness were just completelyunimaginable to a population
basking in what they thought wasan era of perpetual
enlightenment and progress.
Isabel (16:07):
Right, they thought they had it all figured out.
Alex (16:09):
Exactly, and Malkovich's lesson from this is chillingly
relevant today Always rememberanything is possible.
He argues that we have thisdangerous tendency to believe
things will always follow a pathof reason and linear progress,
an assumption that history andindeed current events often
proves devastatingly wrong.
Isabel (16:31):
Yeah.
Alex (16:31):
And this raises an important question for you, the
listener what assumptions areyou making today about the
stability of your world, yoursociety, maybe even your
personal life that might becompletely upended tomorrow?
Isabel (16:43):
That's a sobering thought, but one we probably
don't grapple with enough.
He's also faced significantpersonal losses himself, hasn't
he Losing several family memberswithin five years?
Alex (16:52):
Yeah, quite a difficult period for him.
Isabel (16:54):
There's even this curious, almost superstitious
coincidence, he notes Every timeI perform in the city of
Recklinghausen, someone in thefamily seems to die.
Alex (17:03):
Wow, that's eerie, isn't it?
Yeah?
Isabel (17:05):
And his father died young, at 53, from a heart
attack, which leads Malkovich tooften wonder how he will die.
He says he'd prefer to simplynot wake up.
Alex (17:13):
This quiet contemplation of mortality is particularly
poignant.
He reflects quite candidly oneuthanasia too.
Mortality is particularlypoignant.
He reflects quite candidly oneuthanasia too, Pondering the
grim prospect of spending adecade in a nursing home without
knowing the year.
It's a stark thought, Toucheson the essence of dignity and
control in our final years.
It's a conversation lots ofpeople are having now.
Isabel (17:33):
True.
Alex (17:34):
But then, as only Malkovich can, he brings up this
almost defiant counterexample,the director Manuel de Oliveira,
whom he worked with, whocontinued working until he died
at 106.
106.
Wow, so Malkovich concludes younever know in life.
Again highlighting thatunpredictable, often
(17:56):
contradictory nature ofexistence, Our plans for the end
might be as uncertain as ourjourneys through life.
Isabel (18:00):
And then there's perhaps the most astonishing revelation
in this interview, the one thattruly makes you reevaluate
everything, the Madoff situation.
Yes, malkovich's reaction tolosing everything he had earned
in his life to Bernie Madoff.
For most people that's lifeshattering, utter devastation,
betrayal.
Yet Malkovich's response it'salmost unbelievable Utter
devastation, betrayal, YetMalkovich's response.
It's almost unbelievable.
Alex (18:20):
His perspective is truly remarkable.
It really is.
He compares his loss to someonewho ran, say, an auto repair
shop for 50 years, losteverything and then had to go
bag groceries.
Isabel (18:30):
Right A devastating comparison.
Alex (18:32):
But for himself he says nobody cares if your money is
gone, and that's a good thing.
After all, it was money thatnormal people can never earn
anyway.
Isabel (18:39):
Wow, that line money normal people can never earn
anyway.
Alex (18:49):
This philosophical acceptance of immense financial
loss.
It isn't just rare, it's almostan existential lesson.
Most of us would be utterlycrippled, right Consumed by
bitterness or despair.
Isabel (18:56):
Absolutely.
Alex (18:57):
Malkovich, though, almost implies a liberation in it, as
if losing that kind of moneyreaffirms a different kind of
value, one perhaps untetheredfrom the material.
It pushes us to question whattruly undermines our security,
our self-worth, if notaccumulated wealth.
Isabel (19:12):
So simply as he put it, buy some peanuts and shut up
after losing everything.
It's a level of philosophicaldetachment most of us can barely
comprehend.
But I mean, do you thinkthere's also maybe a touch of
celebrity privilege there,Perhaps a safety net that allows
for that kind of shrug that theaverage person bagging
groceries after losingeverything might not have?
Alex (19:32):
That's a really astute point and it's a vital nuance.
Definitely, While Malkovich'sphilosophical mindset is
undoubtedly genuine, it's truethat someone without a residual
income or the ability to simplytake more film roles doesn't
have the same practical options.
Isabel (19:48):
Right.
Alex (19:48):
His unique position certainly softens the blow.
However, what remains strikingisn't that he recovered, but how
he framed it.
Framing the lack of bitterness,the acceptance that it was
money normal people can neverearn it points to a deeper value
system where his sense ofself-worth just isn't tied to
that kind of capital.
He simply took it as a sign toadapt, keep working, embrace a
(20:11):
more humble approach to expenses.
Maybe it speaks volumes abouthis core values that money, even
a lifetime of earnings, isn'twhat truly defines his security
or happiness.
Isabel (20:21):
And this brings us perfectly to perhaps the most
surprising honor he's received,which kind of crystallizes these
unconventional values evenfurther.
You'd think for an actor withOscar and Golden Globe
nominations, an Emmy win, thosewould be the greatest honors.
Alex (20:37):
The usual suspects yeah.
Isabel (20:38):
But no.
Malkovich reveals that his truegreatest honor was being asked
by the London department storeLiberty a few years ago to
design a fabric for them.
He said that was simplyincredible.
Alex (20:51):
Designing a fabric for Liberty.
It's fantastic, isn't it?
Malte Herwig (20:54):
It is.
Alex (20:55):
And what this reveals about his values is just
profoundly insightful, I think.
Beyond the usual accolades offame and wealth, beyond even the
artistic recognition of acting,he finds genuine satisfaction
and honor in a creative endeavorthat's perhaps more tactile,
more personal, less about ego orpublic performance.
Isabel (21:13):
Yeah, quieter, kind of creation.
Alex (21:14):
Exactly Designing a fabric is a quiet, intimate act, a
different kind of legacy.
Maybe it aligns perfectly withhis detached view of fame and
his philosophical acceptance ofthat financial loss.
It's just a beautiful insightinto a man who truly marches to
the beat of his own drum,finding immense value in things
often overlooked by a worldobsessed with, you know,
(21:34):
glittering prizes.
Isabel (21:35):
What an incredible deep dive into the mind of John
Malkovich.
We've touched on his unique,almost radical take on power,
the intense and shapingchallenges of his childhood, his
remarkable resilience facingimmense loss and his truly
unconventional understanding ofwhat constitutes real success
and honor.
He really is a master ofsurprising perspectives, forces
(21:58):
us to look beyond the surface ofcelebrity and really of life
itself.
Alex (22:01):
He certainly is.
And you know, malkovichsuggests that good people don't
strive for power, that in lifetruly anything is possible, from
unimaginable global conflictsto personal financial ruin,
right, but also unexpected joysand quiet creative satisfactions
(22:30):
.
So what does that mean for howyou approach your own aspiration
?
Yeah, finding a piece of fabric, and to accept immense
financial loss with such apragmatic, almost philosophical
shrug.
John Malkovich (22:42):
Yeah.
Alex (22:43):
His life offers this powerful lived example of
finding meaning and purpose farbeyond the usual metrics we use.
Malte Herwig (22:50):
All right, that's it for this episode.
Alex Isabel, thank you formaking my interviews look so
sophisticated.
Thank you for making myinterviews look so sophisticated
.
I'm not sure if you two aremaking me look good or just
making me look better bycomparison.
Isabel (23:06):
Don't be silly, malta.
We've had a lot of fun goingthrough your work and we've
learned a lot too.
Alex (23:10):
He's right.
It turns out that listening toyou dissect the human condition
is a lot like listening to theperfect algorithm.
It's all about finding patterns, anticipating the next move and
knowing when to let the silencedo the work.
It's all very logical.
Isabel (23:24):
Huh, whatever, we'll be back next Friday with a brand
new episode and an entirely newpuzzle for me and my Windows 95
co-host here to solve.
Alex (23:32):
Windows 95?
I'll have you know I'm more ofa dial-up guy.
All speed, no frustratingcrashes, crashes or endless
pop-ups.
Good old times.
Anyway.
Next week's episode is about aremarkable painter.
It's a conversation that's fullof surprises and insights into
the creative process and a lookat the only woman who survived
Picasso, the woman who says no.
Malte Herwig (23:54):
Yeah, that was one of the most remarkable people I
ever met and I can't wait tohear what you guys make of her.
Isabel (24:03):
And to our listeners.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe and also share
your comments.
We'd love to hear what you makeof the show.
We'll be listening back, Ipromise.
Malte Herwig (24:12):
And now we leave you with the last piece of
wisdom from John Malkovich.
See you next week.
John Malkovich (24:19):
You know it's dangerous to waste a lot of time
hating.
It's better to move on.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.