April 14, 2025 • 29 mins
Evan explores whether the Saturn Return—the astrological transit occurring approximately every 29 years—truly defines who we are by examining both sides of this cosmic coming-of-age experience. Saturn's return to its natal position represents a significant maturation point when the consequences of our life choices become unmistakably clear.
• The first Saturn Return happens between ages 27-30 when Saturn completes its orbit around the sun relative to its natal position in your chart
• People undergo significant maturation during this period, confronting limitations and reality checks
• Pre-Saturn Return individuals often maintain a sense of innocence and infinite possibilities
• Post-Saturn Return individuals typically develop better long-term vision and risk assessment skills
• However, many creative artists produced their most innovative work before their Saturn Return, showing the benefits of hearing from voices who have not yet experienced this return
• Saturn transits at ages 7, 14, and 21 provide previews of Saturn Return themes
• Converting your natal Saturn degree to an age can reveal when your Saturn lessons began
• Personality types with strong Uranian influence may continue innovating after their Saturn Return
Check out my Substack newsletter for manifestation guides, cord-cutting rituals, and 2025 horoscopes. Enroll in my new astrology course about mastering planetary retrogrades, which includes three hours of pre-recorded lectures, slides, a workbook, and a live webinar on April 27th—all available at evannathanielgrim.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey, there, it's Evan Nathaniel Grimm, and welcome to
the latest episode of AstrologyUnbound, and today I'm going to
address a cornerstone ofastrology the Saturn Return, and
I'm going to be debatingwhether or not the Saturn Return
truly says everything about you.
Before I get into this, though,check out my Substack
newsletter.
This is where I post all of mymanifestation guides also a cord
(00:31):
cutting, ritual, intentionsetting rubrics and a lot more,
and also my 2025 horoscopes arestill available for download,
and I now have an astrologycourse about mastering planetary
retrogrades.
We just got out of a prettymessy period of four months of
Mercury, venus and or Mars beingretrograde, so if you want to
(00:51):
plan ahead for the nextretrogrades and make them less
of a headache, then definitelycheck out the course.
It contains three plus hours ofpre-recorded lecture material,
which also is accompanied byslides, a workbook, and it will
culminate with a live webinar onApril 27th, and in that webinar
, I will synthesize all thefindings and also answer your
(01:14):
questions, and so you can checkout all of these things through
my website, evannethanielgrimcom.
So let's talk about the Saturnreturn.
I've addressed this many timeson you know different episodes
and different formats throughoutmy career, but today I want to
talk about it through kind of aspecific lens and also in the
spirit of Saturn switching signsin about a month.
(01:35):
So Saturn will be going intoAries on May 24th of 2025.
And, of course, it's going toretrograde back into Pisces, but
it will be in Aries off and onfrom May of 2025 until the
spring of 2028.
And that means people born withSaturn in Aries, whether
they're born in the late 90s orthe late 60s.
(01:56):
You know you will be goingthrough a Saturn return, whether
it's your first or second, oreven your third for some people.
So let's talk about from abasic level what is the Saturn
return, whether it's your firstor second or even your third for
some people.
So let's talk about from abasic level what is the Saturn
return?
And then also I'm going tofocus on the sort of different
sides of the coin involving theSaturn return, so sort of some
(02:18):
arguments for and against whythe Saturn return really is the
most significant transit thatdefines who you are, and I think
there's some compellingarguments on both sides and I'll
look at both and it really Ithink will open an interesting
dialogue.
So the Saturn return, it is achronological transit, meaning
everybody experiences a Saturnreturn approximately within the
(02:42):
same age ranges returnapproximately within the same
age ranges.
So this differs from a transitthat highly depends on, you know
, aspects to a different planet.
So like Saturn squaring yourmoon, that's not going to happen
for everybody at the same agebecause that depends on where
your moon is.
But if you think about, like aJupiter return, a Saturn return,
you know, a Uranus return,these all happen at around the
(03:06):
same ages because we'rereferring to essentially the
orbital period of the planetinvolved.
So no matter where your Saturnis when you were born, it's
going to take Saturn about 27 to30 years to return to that
position by virtue of Saturn'sactual again cycle and
revolution around the sun.
And same again for the otherplanets like Jupiter, uranus,
(03:30):
mars and so on.
But the Saturn return is specialand kind of stands out from the
other returns in the sense thatamong the seven classical
planets, you know, in ancienttimes or historic times, you
know, saturn was the farthestplanet out that we could see
consistently with the naked eye.
So Saturn sort of constitutedthis judge or this lord of karma
(03:53):
and it represented the passageof time, it represented our
mortality and, if you thinkabout throughout much of human
history.
What was going on between 27and 30 was a pretty significant
maturation and you know, lifeexpectancy was off, you know,
for much of human history in themid-30s.
So the Saturn return oftentimessignified, you know, the
(04:16):
growing of gray hairs, thematurity of your wisdom teeth,
and also a time when you knowyou've fully stepped into
parenthood or maybe you've, youknow, seen that responsibility
almost all the way throughalready at that point in the
again in the old days.
And Saturn does judgesymbolically, you know, our
actions.
(04:36):
It is the eye in the sky, thewatchful eye in the sky.
It has a ring around it, so itdeals with boundaries as well
and limits, and it is oftentimesthe saturn return when we come
to terms with certainlimitations and certain reality
checks.
So think about saturn, thesaturn return, as a reality
check.
But it's not in in the moderntimes when we're all hopefully
(04:57):
living to the, at least theaverage, you know, life
expectancy of.
You know whatever early 80smost people will go through two
and a half to three Saturnreturns, and so it's not like
just 27 to 30, you know that'snot the one shot you ever have
at mastering your Saturnplacement, but you know, I
always think about it throughthe lens of choices.
So when you're, you know, reallyyoung, you're in your youth and
(05:20):
even let's go back to, like,elementary school, when they ask
you who you want to be when yougrow up, you can say whatever
you want.
You can imagine yourself as anastronaut or a firefighter or a
musician, and truly you do havea fairly infinite set of
possibilities at that time, whenyou're like seven or eight
years old.
But every year that goes by youmake a set of choices, you
(05:41):
develop a sense of autonomy andyou really do exercise your free
will.
But every time you make achoice you do change your future
trajectory in big and smallways.
So, like when I graduated fromhigh school, I chose to go to
Northwestern.
That put me into Chicago.
My decision to go to thatcollege completely, you know,
didn't like restrict my field ofpossibilities, but it did
(06:03):
constrict it a little bit.
And then my choice of majorfurther restricted that field.
So my decision to get aphilosophy degree with a minor
in economics was definitelyblocking me out from, let's say,
going off to work at NASA.
At least it made the odds verysmall.
(06:25):
So anyways, then I moved to NewYork, then I'd pick a certain
job, and another job and so on.
I choose to date a specificperson.
All of this eventually sort ofcrunches together and leads to a
crossroads between 27 and 30.
And it will depend, obviously,on where your Saturn is by sign
and house and what aspects it'smaking to other planets.
(06:46):
But everybody will beconfronting similar adult themes
at their Saturn return.
So, whether it is to, you know,choosing whether or not to get
married, whether or not to havea child, whether or not to buy a
certain house, whether or notto, or how to deal maybe with
even a certain health issue, youknow, the Saturn return just
(07:07):
adds a serious undertone to yourlife and also forces you to
reckon with the, again, theconsequences of actions.
But then you see how the web ofall your actions has kind of
led to this moment.
This confluence of factors, theSaturn return, really is a
sobering time.
It does force us to mature inbig and small ways and again,
(07:31):
this is very rudimentary.
I'm not going to go into all theins and outs of the Saturn
return because I think that'sfor a separate class that I want
to teach.
But also the angle of thispodcast episode is not really
meant to like educate people onwhat a Saturn return is.
It's more opening.
The question about whether ornot your Saturn return says
everything about you.
And I think it's a reallyprovocative question and a
(07:54):
worthy question, because youknow some of you who are
listening maybe haven't gonethrough one yet, and other
people have and they're like youknow.
You know instantly what I meanwhen I talk about the Saturn
return.
You know you can think back tothose ages of 27 to 30.
And you know you might rollyour eyes, you might laugh,
depending on what youexperienced.
And you know I was just walkingoutside, honestly, before this
(08:15):
episode, and I was like you know, in some ways I do think
there's two types of people inthis world.
Like you could, you couldseparate the world into people
who have gone through the Saturnreturn and people who haven't.
And I do think it's worthquestioning whether or not we
should even be taking advicefrom people who haven't gone
through one.
And there's a lot of people onsocial media ranging from life
(08:38):
coaches to manifestation experts, astrologers, obviously, and
everything in between.
You know financial talkingheads and people who claim a
certain expertise but likepeople who have never gone
through a Saturn return andthey're doling out this really
firm advice without necessarilyagain having been tested in that
(09:00):
way by Saturn.
It's like why?
I mean, you know this isn'tagain an open question but it's
like you could argue, like whytrust the judgment of someone
who hasn't been judged by theLord of Karma themselves?
Right, and I'm not here to saythat argument is definitely true
.
But I think it is a legitimatequestion to ask.
And the reason I ask it isbecause you know the Saturn
(09:22):
return is an experience, it's alived experience, it's something
you can read about and it'ssomething I can talk about and
articulate.
And you can again.
Let's say you're 25 and you'venever gone through a Saturn
return.
Maybe you've seen an oldersibling go through it, maybe
you've heard from me about itand what it feels like.
But it's that classic analogy oflike the experiment of Mary in
(09:43):
the black and white room, marycan study everything she wants
about the color red.
Like in this thought experiment, mary lives in a black and
white room and you know she iscovered from head to toe in
neutral attire and so she hasnever experienced the color red.
She's living in this box andyet she studies everything about
(10:06):
the color wheel, the colorspectrum, she understands the
mechanics and the science behindhow we see color, what
constitutes the color red, andso on.
But then she's released fromthis box let's say it's during
her Saturn return and she sees ared rose in the forest and she
plucks the rose and she says,aha, that's the color red.
(10:29):
And this is the experientialwisdom, the experiential
knowledge that comes through,versus an empirical, logic-based
knowledge of, like I understandhow something works, I can sort
of cognize it, but until shesees the color red it could be
argued that she's not actuallyan expert at the color red.
And again, this is just an opendiscussion.
(10:51):
Sometimes I watch videos frompeople who state things so
plainly and firmly and, you know, with certitude, and then I
think about like well, I wonderwhat they would say on the other
side of their Saturn return afew years from now, and how
would they speak about thistopic armed with the wisdom of
Saturn, again, in any field?
I'm not trying to pick on likeastrologers or any particular
(11:12):
person here, but it just is anopen question In some ways.
You know, again, the Saturnreturn defines us and I guess I
want to add in like kind of howthat would happen.
So again, the honest answer isyou don't know until you've been
through one.
But, like just to kind of tryto explain it, before you're in
your Saturn return, there is asense of being at least slightly
(11:34):
I don't want to say blissfullyunaware, but there is a bit of
innocence to your life where,even if you feel like you've had
a really harsh life up to nowyou've had maybe you have Saturn
conjunct your moon or something, or Saturn on your ascendant,
like, even if you have a reallytough Saturn placement, there is
some semblance, I think, ofinnocence or insulation from the
full scope of consequences andmaybe even like just a slight
(11:55):
insulation from the full scopeof consequences and maybe even
like just a slight insulationfrom the full scope of
responsibilities that you may betaking on in your life.
So I guess, just anecdotally,pre-saturn return, my life was
very much surrounded by allkinds of friends and there was a
social network and I had allthese acquaintances, friends of
(12:15):
friends and everyone.
I was hanging out, mostly withpeople in my same age range,
people who were around again,people who had not gone through
the Saturn return yet, and itwas very easy to kind of invite
people into your space and viceversa, and everyone was sort of
seeking something.
It's almost like people weretrying to search for life's
(12:38):
answers together.
But also people could throwcaution to the wind a little bit
more easily.
People were very freeform andkind of like letting loose and
having fun and again sort ofindulging in this sort of
innocence, whether they wereconscious of it or not.
And then something weirdhappened between 27 and 30, and
(12:58):
it was steady throughout thattime.
But eventually people sort ofdisperse and certain people you
were friends with just disappear.
In some cases it's because well, in my case it was because
maybe they left New York Citybecause they were done with you
know the lifestyle.
They wanted something a littlebit more suburban and more
stable, et cetera.
Other people got married or hadchildren or you know they just
(13:23):
they wanted to go back to schoolor something.
After the Saturn return it's notthat the whole concept of
friendship disappeared, but itwasn't quite as much of a
cauldron of social activity,right.
It didn't feel like people weresort of coming and going
through all the motions of yourlife.
And it's because everyone inthat group went through their
(13:46):
Saturn return, so everyone hadto suddenly get serious about
something and no matter howsocial or asocial you are, I
think that friendship is avehicle through which people can
sort of like observe almostscientifically the effects of a
Saturn return, because up untilabout 27, there is a sense that
(14:10):
everyone's kind of going throughthe school of life together.
Even after high school there'sthat period from 18 to 27 when
you know you're still learning,you're still learning and you're
a sponge.
But after the Saturn returnthere is a sort of rigidity that
is added to someone's life.
And not to say that everyone isthe same, you know, some people
(14:32):
continue to innovate and craveflexibility in their life.
But again it is kind of a lineof demarcation the Saturn return
.
After the Saturn return, I dothink people are suddenly more
discerning and they also havereasons to almost fear taking
certain risks, or they do cravemore stability.
Actually, and Saturn does havea lot to do with our fears
(14:53):
Because again it not only tiesback to the mythology of Cronus
but it also deals with thattheme of, like the ring, being
around Saturn and suddenlywanting to be kind of enclosed.
And Saturn, you know, evenreminds me of just like the four
walls around us.
It's like we want to live in aconsistent home, but that also
reduces our mobility.
(15:14):
That's sort of the energy ofSaturn, and so I'm obviously
painting this almost like in amaybe negative light, but it
doesn't have to be.
I mean, after the Saturn return,people also feel as though they
actually have perspective ontheir life.
They have this sort of likeinexplicable wisdom about things
, and it does allow them to domore with less and get more
(15:35):
things done more efficiently.
I just noticed like peopleafter their Saturn return they
can kind of anticipate what thedrawbacks of a decision would be
and they can keep track of,like different stakeholders in a
situation, like a lot ofmanagers, for example, in
companies have gone through aSaturn return.
A lot of the best managers havealready experienced that coming
of age transit where theybecome aware of their naivete
(15:59):
and they suddenly take a certainstance in life that minimizes
the risks of being naive aboutsomething, meaning they try to
arm themselves with as muchinformation as possible and they
attempt to sort of position andposture themselves to have a
wide view of all the benefitsand risks.
(16:21):
So I think that that's probablythe easiest way to summarize a
Saturn return is that peoplebecome much better at doing a
cost-benefit analysis withanything, and that's primarily
because their long-term visionimproves.
And from that perspective Ithink you could make a strong
case that people who haven'tbeen through a Saturn return may
(16:44):
not be as effective teachers ormentors as people who have gone
through one.
But now I want to explore theother side of this argument, why
maybe the Saturn return doesn'tactually define who you are.
So let's look at the realm ofart, music and creativity.
Many of history's most prolificartists did release their most
(17:09):
masterful work prior to theirSaturn return.
And look at well, unfortunately, a lot of musicians have died
at the age of 27.
You think about the 27 Club,but even if we set that aside
for a second, you could look atpretty much every band, every
artist, and look at their bodyof work before 30 and after 30.
(17:31):
And in most cases what you'llsee is either they were just
pumping out so much creativecontent before 30 and then it
petered out, or it was a steadyoutput, and then, around 29 or
30, they published their sort ofmagnum opus and their most
celebrated album, and then afterthat they either kind of go
(17:55):
into maintenance mode and coastoff of what they did there with
their seminal work or, you know,they decline in quality, right.
So from that vantage point youcould argue that we need voices
that are sort of pre-Saturnreturn.
We need people to be givingadvice and offering perspective,
(18:15):
you know, before they've hittheir Saturn return, because
again the Saturn return can addrigidity and inflexibility to
your life.
And sometimes, even if someoneis an effective leader or
manager after the Saturn returnthey also have sometimes a more
narrow view because they'realmost deterred from taking
certain risks because some oftheir fears were brought up
(18:37):
during the Saturn return.
Like maybe during a Saturnreturn someone's grandfather
passes away and you know theybuy a house and suddenly they
just become aware of likefinality and mortality and you
know they realize that they haveto make some really serious
commitments in their life.
Somehow that just creates acertain framing where they are a
(18:59):
little bit more risk averse andthey are aware of again the
drawbacks and the negative sideof things and the cost of things
and the opportunity cost ofcertain things.
Strong commitments this alsosometimes scares them away from
taking a risk or making, youknow, a commitment to something
(19:20):
a little bit more faith-driven.
You know like, let's say,somebody commits to a house
commits to having a family andthen they commit to a certain
corporate job all around thetime of their Saturn return.
That can make it very hard forthem to suddenly say oh you know
, I'm just going to switch toastrology and start making
content on social media.
It's almost like things havegone a little bit more brittle
(19:43):
or stale after the Saturn return.
So from that perspective, it'slike maybe you should be
prioritizing voices from peoplewho haven't witnessed that sort
of Saturnian effect and maybeeven like drying out of some of
their initial youthful hopes anddreams.
(20:04):
Now, of course, there's otherpeople who go through their
Saturn return and they use thatas fuel to just keep getting
better and better at what theydo and more authentic, and a lot
of the best life coaches,manifestation experts and so on
were already on a good trackbefore.
Their Saturn return helps themsolidify their entire worldview
(20:29):
and their approach to life,which can be very freeing for
them, and it's almost like theyhave a foundation an even
stronger one after that.
Or people's Saturn returnserves as a wake-up call and
then they use that to realizehow stagnant they were before
their Saturn return and thenthey actually emphasize
innovation.
Now a lot of this again dependson where your Saturn is, where
your North Node is and so on,and I'll do a whole class on
(20:52):
that.
And I've noticed, by the way,that you know people who are
very Uranian, whether they havea lot of Aquarius placements or
a dominant Uranus placement oreven an Aquarius North Node.
They just keep innovating aftertheir Saturn return.
So one of my favorite artists,bon Iver, just released his well
, his latest album.
I almost said his last albumbecause there's some rumors
(21:12):
going around that he might beretiring that project, although
none of that is confirmed.
But I was watching some of hisinterviews.
This week, justin Vernon and Idecided to look at his birth
chart and he has like fiveplanets in Taurus, which is
really really unique, but alsohe has Uranus and Scorpio
opposing much of that and, youknow, not in an exact opposition
(21:37):
, but I think it's pretty closeto opposing his Venus in Taurus.
I think the Uranian energy iswhat allows Justin Vernon to
continuously innovate sonics andsounds that he's using.
He'll make you'll make sort ofcreative sounds out of the drums
.
He'll run them through theseprocessors and suddenly the drum
becomes like this sonicinstrument beyond just providing
(21:57):
rhythm, it's almost helping tovivify the entire composition
and he'll add in so many uniqueinstrumentations and blend them
together on top of his voice.
And that's something that he'sbeen innovating on consistently
since his very first album.
So you know again, this isgreat evidence that you know
(22:20):
Uranian people can continue tothrive and challenge, you know,
status quo ideas throughouttheir life.
And there's another argument, bythe way, that a Saturn return
doesn't even guarantee maturity.
There's plenty of people whohave gone through a Saturn
return who are still blissfullyunaware, and I think that is
true to some degree.
(22:41):
But I don't buy that argumentbecause I think there is still a
very real experience, no matterwhat that argument, because I
think there is still a very realexperience, no matter what.
And everybody, no matter howintrospective or not they are,
they have to make really heavychoices between 27 and 30.
Like, even if they don't fullyappreciate what's going on, it's
like your hard wiring ischanging, at least to some
(23:03):
extent, and you have someimplicit understanding that
there are consequences toactions.
You know you can extend this toother returns.
Like does an astrologer have towait until they're 84 to fully
understand a Uranus return?
Like, maybe right.
Like I've never experienced aUranus return.
Does that mean I can't, I'm notqualified to talk about it?
(23:24):
That's not true either.
In my opinion, Necessarily true.
You know, you could say like,maybe I have to wait, maybe I
don't, but I'm going to use thissort of as a vehicle to kind of
round this out and talk aboutwhy and how I think you can kind
of get clues about what you'resupposed to learn during your
(23:44):
Saturn return, way ahead of yourSaturn return, about what
you're supposed to learn duringyour Saturn return, way ahead of
your Saturn return, so that youknow and again, like you might
come out of this podcast feelinglike the Saturn return is like
an ultimate arbiter of like whoyou are and how you navigate
life.
And Saturn really does dealwith our manifestation efforts
(24:05):
because it does apply pressurein a way that allows for
manifestation.
But I want to give you sometools along this path to your
Saturn return so that yourSaturn return is one, not a
mystery.
I want to show you that youalready have gone through many
moments of maturity ahead ofyour Saturn return.
First of all, if you go by thedegree theory that I use, where
(24:25):
you convert the degree of eachplanet to an age where that
planet you know plays a dominantrole in your life, meaning you
convert the age or sorry, thedegree to the exact age that's
equivalent to that degree.
Then you can just look at yourSaturn degree and if it's before
27, then your Saturn wasactivated before your Saturn
return.
So if you have Saturn at 15degrees, age 15 will tell you a
(24:47):
lot about how your Saturnoperates, and also at the age of
15.
In that case you probably wouldhave sort of a miniature
reality check.
But also there are Saturntransits along the way to your
Saturn return, like the openingsquare of Saturn at age 7, the
opposition of Saturn at age 14,and the closing square at 21.
So by 21, you theoreticallyalready have a semblance of how
(25:10):
your natal Saturn is testing youand you've already been
pressured in some ways to matureAgain.
Track the degree of your Saturn, convert it to age and then
also look at ages 7, 14, and 21and reflect on all those times.
And as long as you do that, Ithink that you will have a
pretty clear sense of whatlessons you're meant to be
(25:32):
learning during your Saturnreturn and this can help you
anticipate your Saturn returnreally well.
And if you've already had yourSaturn return.
Look back to the ages of 27 to30 approximately, but also, to
be more specific about it, trackwhen Saturn entered the sign
that your natal Saturn is in.
So the theory is that yourSaturn return occurs from the
(25:54):
moment Saturn enters your natalSaturn sign placement to the
time that it leaves that sign.
So I have Saturn in Capricorn,meaning from December 2017 until
, I believe, end of 2020, thatwhole three-year stretch.
I was in my Saturn return, eventhough my Saturn is technically
at 21 degrees of cap.
However, your Saturn returnpeaks when Saturn forms a
(26:18):
partile conjunction to yournatal Saturn, so in my case,
when Saturn was at 21 degrees ofCapricorn, which I believe was
late 2019 into early 2020.
Fun times for me right duringthe pandemic.
I hope this podcast has beenthought-provoking for you and
I'm really curious to hear yourthoughts on this.
Do you believe that the Saturnreturn is an essential
(26:42):
crossroads and sort of gauntletthat people have to walk through
in order to kind of prove theirmettle, you know, and prove
their resilience and also provetheir understanding of kind of
what life is all about?
Do you feel like the people inyour life pre-27 are sort of not
(27:02):
equipped with the wisdomnecessary to be in positions of
like management or authority, ordo you feel like that's
complete BS?
Do you feel like people postage 30 are just, as you know,
prone to making mistakes aspeople pre 27?
Do you feel like it's sort of amixture of both?
(27:22):
You know, look at your own life.
You know what was going on.
I think maybe use friendship asan example, because, you know,
by looking at the lives of yourfriends, you can see how Saturn
operated for them.
Like what did your socialnetwork look like before 27 and
then after 30?
How did people orientthemselves to their own lives
and to reality before and afterthose moments?
(27:44):
Did you feel like people inyour life remained young and
free or did they feel much moreweighed down by something?
And then again, look at yourown life.
How do you operate before andafter those times?
And do you feel again like youcan put your faith into people
as thought leaders beforethey've gone through a Saturn
(28:04):
return?
You know, feel free to.
You know, leave a.
I don't know.
I wish there was like a way tocomment on the podcast.
I mean, feel free to, you know,maybe we should actually, you
know, do a discussion about thison my sub stack, cause I do
weekly videos, live videos,through that.
So I think I'll add that intomy sub stack.
You know, even just talk aboutthis amongst your friends and
family.
You know what did the Saturnreturn mean to them, and do they
(28:27):
notice a big difference intheir life after?
So?
Thank you so much.
I hope this has been agenerative discussion.
I'm Evan Nathaniel Grimm.
Again, check out my sub stack,my horoscopes and also I will be
doing more shows in Los Angeles, so look out for those
announcements, enroll in myclass about planetary
retrogrades, which just launched, and make sure you enroll
(28:47):
within the next week so you havetime to prep for the webinar
that I'll be delivering on the27th of April.
So thank you again, take careand I'll see you on the next
episode.
Hey, there, it's Evan Nathaniel Grimm, and welcome to
the latest episode of AstrologyUnbound, and today I'm going to
address a cornerstone ofastrology the Saturn Return, and
I'm going to be debatingwhether or not the Saturn Return
truly says everything about you.
Before I get into this, though,check out my Substack
newsletter.
This is where I post all of mymanifestation guides also a cord
(00:31):
cutting, ritual, intentionsetting rubrics and a lot more,
and also my 2025 horoscopes arestill available for download,
and I now have an astrologycourse about mastering planetary
retrogrades.
We just got out of a prettymessy period of four months of
Mercury, venus and or Mars beingretrograde, so if you want to
(00:51):
plan ahead for the nextretrogrades and make them less
of a headache, then definitelycheck out the course.
It contains three plus hours ofpre-recorded lecture material,
which also is accompanied byslides, a workbook, and it will
culminate with a live webinar onApril 27th, and in that webinar
, I will synthesize all thefindings and also answer your
(01:14):
questions, and so you can checkout all of these things through
my website, evannethanielgrimcom.
So let's talk about the Saturnreturn.
I've addressed this many timeson you know different episodes
and different formats throughoutmy career, but today I want to
talk about it through kind of aspecific lens and also in the
spirit of Saturn switching signsin about a month.
(01:35):
So Saturn will be going intoAries on May 24th of 2025.
And, of course, it's going toretrograde back into Pisces, but
it will be in Aries off and onfrom May of 2025 until the
spring of 2028.
And that means people born withSaturn in Aries, whether
they're born in the late 90s orthe late 60s.
(01:56):
You know you will be goingthrough a Saturn return, whether
it's your first or second, oreven your third for some people.
So let's talk about from abasic level what is the Saturn
return, whether it's your firstor second or even your third for
some people.
So let's talk about from abasic level what is the Saturn
return?
And then also I'm going tofocus on the sort of different
sides of the coin involving theSaturn return, so sort of some
(02:18):
arguments for and against whythe Saturn return really is the
most significant transit thatdefines who you are, and I think
there's some compellingarguments on both sides and I'll
look at both and it really Ithink will open an interesting
dialogue.
So the Saturn return, it is achronological transit, meaning
everybody experiences a Saturnreturn approximately within the
(02:42):
same age ranges returnapproximately within the same
age ranges.
So this differs from a transitthat highly depends on, you know
, aspects to a different planet.
So like Saturn squaring yourmoon, that's not going to happen
for everybody at the same agebecause that depends on where
your moon is.
But if you think about, like aJupiter return, a Saturn return,
you know, a Uranus return,these all happen at around the
(03:06):
same ages because we'rereferring to essentially the
orbital period of the planetinvolved.
So no matter where your Saturnis when you were born, it's
going to take Saturn about 27 to30 years to return to that
position by virtue of Saturn'sactual again cycle and
revolution around the sun.
And same again for the otherplanets like Jupiter, uranus,
(03:30):
mars and so on.
But the Saturn return is specialand kind of stands out from the
other returns in the sense thatamong the seven classical
planets, you know, in ancienttimes or historic times, you
know, saturn was the farthestplanet out that we could see
consistently with the naked eye.
So Saturn sort of constitutedthis judge or this lord of karma
(03:53):
and it represented the passageof time, it represented our
mortality and, if you thinkabout throughout much of human
history.
What was going on between 27and 30 was a pretty significant
maturation and you know, lifeexpectancy was off, you know,
for much of human history in themid-30s.
So the Saturn return oftentimessignified, you know, the
(04:16):
growing of gray hairs, thematurity of your wisdom teeth,
and also a time when you knowyou've fully stepped into
parenthood or maybe you've, youknow, seen that responsibility
almost all the way throughalready at that point in the
again in the old days.
And Saturn does judgesymbolically, you know, our
actions.
(04:36):
It is the eye in the sky, thewatchful eye in the sky.
It has a ring around it, so itdeals with boundaries as well
and limits, and it is oftentimesthe saturn return when we come
to terms with certainlimitations and certain reality
checks.
So think about saturn, thesaturn return, as a reality
check.
But it's not in in the moderntimes when we're all hopefully
(04:57):
living to the, at least theaverage, you know, life
expectancy of.
You know whatever early 80smost people will go through two
and a half to three Saturnreturns, and so it's not like
just 27 to 30, you know that'snot the one shot you ever have
at mastering your Saturnplacement, but you know, I
always think about it throughthe lens of choices.
So when you're, you know, reallyyoung, you're in your youth and
(05:20):
even let's go back to, like,elementary school, when they ask
you who you want to be when yougrow up, you can say whatever
you want.
You can imagine yourself as anastronaut or a firefighter or a
musician, and truly you do havea fairly infinite set of
possibilities at that time, whenyou're like seven or eight
years old.
But every year that goes by youmake a set of choices, you
(05:41):
develop a sense of autonomy andyou really do exercise your free
will.
But every time you make achoice you do change your future
trajectory in big and smallways.
So, like when I graduated fromhigh school, I chose to go to
Northwestern.
That put me into Chicago.
My decision to go to thatcollege completely, you know,
didn't like restrict my field ofpossibilities, but it did
(06:03):
constrict it a little bit.
And then my choice of majorfurther restricted that field.
So my decision to get aphilosophy degree with a minor
in economics was definitelyblocking me out from, let's say,
going off to work at NASA.
At least it made the odds verysmall.
(06:25):
So anyways, then I moved to NewYork, then I'd pick a certain
job, and another job and so on.
I choose to date a specificperson.
All of this eventually sort ofcrunches together and leads to a
crossroads between 27 and 30.
And it will depend, obviously,on where your Saturn is by sign
and house and what aspects it'smaking to other planets.
(06:46):
But everybody will beconfronting similar adult themes
at their Saturn return.
So, whether it is to, you know,choosing whether or not to get
married, whether or not to havea child, whether or not to buy a
certain house, whether or notto, or how to deal maybe with
even a certain health issue, youknow, the Saturn return just
(07:07):
adds a serious undertone to yourlife and also forces you to
reckon with the, again, theconsequences of actions.
But then you see how the web ofall your actions has kind of
led to this moment.
This confluence of factors, theSaturn return, really is a
sobering time.
It does force us to mature inbig and small ways and again,
(07:31):
this is very rudimentary.
I'm not going to go into all theins and outs of the Saturn
return because I think that'sfor a separate class that I want
to teach.
But also the angle of thispodcast episode is not really
meant to like educate people onwhat a Saturn return is.
It's more opening.
The question about whether ornot your Saturn return says
everything about you.
And I think it's a reallyprovocative question and a
(07:54):
worthy question, because youknow some of you who are
listening maybe haven't gonethrough one yet, and other
people have and they're like youknow.
You know instantly what I meanwhen I talk about the Saturn
return.
You know you can think back tothose ages of 27 to 30.
And you know you might rollyour eyes, you might laugh,
depending on what youexperienced.
And you know I was just walkingoutside, honestly, before this
(08:15):
episode, and I was like you know, in some ways I do think
there's two types of people inthis world.
Like you could, you couldseparate the world into people
who have gone through the Saturnreturn and people who haven't.
And I do think it's worthquestioning whether or not we
should even be taking advicefrom people who haven't gone
through one.
And there's a lot of people onsocial media ranging from life
(08:38):
coaches to manifestation experts, astrologers, obviously, and
everything in between.
You know financial talkingheads and people who claim a
certain expertise but likepeople who have never gone
through a Saturn return andthey're doling out this really
firm advice without necessarilyagain having been tested in that
(09:00):
way by Saturn.
It's like why?
I mean, you know this isn'tagain an open question but it's
like you could argue, like whytrust the judgment of someone
who hasn't been judged by theLord of Karma themselves?
Right, and I'm not here to saythat argument is definitely true
.
But I think it is a legitimatequestion to ask.
And the reason I ask it isbecause you know the Saturn
(09:22):
return is an experience, it's alived experience, it's something
you can read about and it'ssomething I can talk about and
articulate.
And you can again.
Let's say you're 25 and you'venever gone through a Saturn
return.
Maybe you've seen an oldersibling go through it, maybe
you've heard from me about itand what it feels like.
But it's that classic analogy oflike the experiment of Mary in
(09:43):
the black and white room, marycan study everything she wants
about the color red.
Like in this thought experiment, mary lives in a black and
white room and you know she iscovered from head to toe in
neutral attire and so she hasnever experienced the color red.
She's living in this box andyet she studies everything about
(10:06):
the color wheel, the colorspectrum, she understands the
mechanics and the science behindhow we see color, what
constitutes the color red, andso on.
But then she's released fromthis box let's say it's during
her Saturn return and she sees ared rose in the forest and she
plucks the rose and she says,aha, that's the color red.
(10:29):
And this is the experientialwisdom, the experiential
knowledge that comes through,versus an empirical, logic-based
knowledge of, like I understandhow something works, I can sort
of cognize it, but until shesees the color red it could be
argued that she's not actuallyan expert at the color red.
And again, this is just an opendiscussion.
(10:51):
Sometimes I watch videos frompeople who state things so
plainly and firmly and, you know, with certitude, and then I
think about like well, I wonderwhat they would say on the other
side of their Saturn return afew years from now, and how
would they speak about thistopic armed with the wisdom of
Saturn, again, in any field?
I'm not trying to pick on likeastrologers or any particular
(11:12):
person here, but it just is anopen question In some ways.
You know, again, the Saturnreturn defines us and I guess I
want to add in like kind of howthat would happen.
So again, the honest answer isyou don't know until you've been
through one.
But, like just to kind of tryto explain it, before you're in
your Saturn return, there is asense of being at least slightly
(11:34):
I don't want to say blissfullyunaware, but there is a bit of
innocence to your life where,even if you feel like you've had
a really harsh life up to nowyou've had maybe you have Saturn
conjunct your moon or something, or Saturn on your ascendant,
like, even if you have a reallytough Saturn placement, there is
some semblance, I think, ofinnocence or insulation from the
full scope of consequences andmaybe even like just a slight
(11:55):
insulation from the full scopeof consequences and maybe even
like just a slight insulationfrom the full scope of
responsibilities that you may betaking on in your life.
So I guess, just anecdotally,pre-saturn return, my life was
very much surrounded by allkinds of friends and there was a
social network and I had allthese acquaintances, friends of
(12:15):
friends and everyone.
I was hanging out, mostly withpeople in my same age range,
people who were around again,people who had not gone through
the Saturn return yet, and itwas very easy to kind of invite
people into your space and viceversa, and everyone was sort of
seeking something.
It's almost like people weretrying to search for life's
(12:38):
answers together.
But also people could throwcaution to the wind a little bit
more easily.
People were very freeform andkind of like letting loose and
having fun and again sort ofindulging in this sort of
innocence, whether they wereconscious of it or not.
And then something weirdhappened between 27 and 30, and
(12:58):
it was steady throughout thattime.
But eventually people sort ofdisperse and certain people you
were friends with just disappear.
In some cases it's because well, in my case it was because
maybe they left New York Citybecause they were done with you
know the lifestyle.
They wanted something a littlebit more suburban and more
stable, et cetera.
Other people got married or hadchildren or you know they just
(13:23):
they wanted to go back to schoolor something.
After the Saturn return it's notthat the whole concept of
friendship disappeared, but itwasn't quite as much of a
cauldron of social activity,right.
It didn't feel like people weresort of coming and going
through all the motions of yourlife.
And it's because everyone inthat group went through their
(13:46):
Saturn return, so everyone hadto suddenly get serious about
something and no matter howsocial or asocial you are, I
think that friendship is avehicle through which people can
sort of like observe almostscientifically the effects of a
Saturn return, because up untilabout 27, there is a sense that
(14:10):
everyone's kind of going throughthe school of life together.
Even after high school there'sthat period from 18 to 27 when
you know you're still learning,you're still learning and you're
a sponge.
But after the Saturn returnthere is a sort of rigidity that
is added to someone's life.
And not to say that everyone isthe same, you know, some people
(14:32):
continue to innovate and craveflexibility in their life.
But again it is kind of a lineof demarcation the Saturn return
.
After the Saturn return, I dothink people are suddenly more
discerning and they also havereasons to almost fear taking
certain risks, or they do cravemore stability.
Actually, and Saturn does havea lot to do with our fears
(14:53):
Because again it not only tiesback to the mythology of Cronus
but it also deals with thattheme of, like the ring, being
around Saturn and suddenlywanting to be kind of enclosed.
And Saturn, you know, evenreminds me of just like the four
walls around us.
It's like we want to live in aconsistent home, but that also
reduces our mobility.
(15:14):
That's sort of the energy ofSaturn, and so I'm obviously
painting this almost like in amaybe negative light, but it
doesn't have to be.
I mean, after the Saturn return,people also feel as though they
actually have perspective ontheir life.
They have this sort of likeinexplicable wisdom about things
, and it does allow them to domore with less and get more
(15:35):
things done more efficiently.
I just noticed like peopleafter their Saturn return they
can kind of anticipate what thedrawbacks of a decision would be
and they can keep track of,like different stakeholders in a
situation, like a lot ofmanagers, for example, in
companies have gone through aSaturn return.
A lot of the best managers havealready experienced that coming
of age transit where theybecome aware of their naivete
(15:59):
and they suddenly take a certainstance in life that minimizes
the risks of being naive aboutsomething, meaning they try to
arm themselves with as muchinformation as possible and they
attempt to sort of position andposture themselves to have a
wide view of all the benefitsand risks.
(16:21):
So I think that that's probablythe easiest way to summarize a
Saturn return is that peoplebecome much better at doing a
cost-benefit analysis withanything, and that's primarily
because their long-term visionimproves.
And from that perspective Ithink you could make a strong
case that people who haven'tbeen through a Saturn return may
(16:44):
not be as effective teachers ormentors as people who have gone
through one.
But now I want to explore theother side of this argument, why
maybe the Saturn return doesn'tactually define who you are.
So let's look at the realm ofart, music and creativity.
Many of history's most prolificartists did release their most
(17:09):
masterful work prior to theirSaturn return.
And look at well, unfortunately, a lot of musicians have died
at the age of 27.
You think about the 27 Club,but even if we set that aside
for a second, you could look atpretty much every band, every
artist, and look at their bodyof work before 30 and after 30.
(17:31):
And in most cases what you'llsee is either they were just
pumping out so much creativecontent before 30 and then it
petered out, or it was a steadyoutput, and then, around 29 or
30, they published their sort ofmagnum opus and their most
celebrated album, and then afterthat they either kind of go
(17:55):
into maintenance mode and coastoff of what they did there with
their seminal work or, you know,they decline in quality, right.
So from that vantage point youcould argue that we need voices
that are sort of pre-Saturnreturn.
We need people to be givingadvice and offering perspective,
(18:15):
you know, before they've hittheir Saturn return, because
again the Saturn return can addrigidity and inflexibility to
your life.
And sometimes, even if someoneis an effective leader or
manager after the Saturn returnthey also have sometimes a more
narrow view because they'realmost deterred from taking
certain risks because some oftheir fears were brought up
(18:37):
during the Saturn return.
Like maybe during a Saturnreturn someone's grandfather
passes away and you know theybuy a house and suddenly they
just become aware of likefinality and mortality and you
know they realize that they haveto make some really serious
commitments in their life.
Somehow that just creates acertain framing where they are a
(18:59):
little bit more risk averse andthey are aware of again the
drawbacks and the negative sideof things and the cost of things
and the opportunity cost ofcertain things.
Strong commitments this alsosometimes scares them away from
taking a risk or making, youknow, a commitment to something
(19:20):
a little bit more faith-driven.
You know like, let's say,somebody commits to a house
commits to having a family andthen they commit to a certain
corporate job all around thetime of their Saturn return.
That can make it very hard forthem to suddenly say oh you know
, I'm just going to switch toastrology and start making
content on social media.
It's almost like things havegone a little bit more brittle
(19:43):
or stale after the Saturn return.
So from that perspective, it'slike maybe you should be
prioritizing voices from peoplewho haven't witnessed that sort
of Saturnian effect and maybeeven like drying out of some of
their initial youthful hopes anddreams.
(20:04):
Now, of course, there's otherpeople who go through their
Saturn return and they use thatas fuel to just keep getting
better and better at what theydo and more authentic, and a lot
of the best life coaches,manifestation experts and so on
were already on a good trackbefore.
Their Saturn return helps themsolidify their entire worldview
(20:29):
and their approach to life,which can be very freeing for
them, and it's almost like theyhave a foundation an even
stronger one after that.
Or people's Saturn returnserves as a wake-up call and
then they use that to realizehow stagnant they were before
their Saturn return and thenthey actually emphasize
innovation.
Now a lot of this again dependson where your Saturn is, where
your North Node is and so on,and I'll do a whole class on
(20:52):
that.
And I've noticed, by the way,that you know people who are
very Uranian, whether they havea lot of Aquarius placements or
a dominant Uranus placement oreven an Aquarius North Node.
They just keep innovating aftertheir Saturn return.
So one of my favorite artists,bon Iver, just released his well
, his latest album.
I almost said his last albumbecause there's some rumors
(21:12):
going around that he might beretiring that project, although
none of that is confirmed.
But I was watching some of hisinterviews.
This week, justin Vernon and Idecided to look at his birth
chart and he has like fiveplanets in Taurus, which is
really really unique, but alsohe has Uranus and Scorpio
opposing much of that and, youknow, not in an exact opposition
(21:37):
, but I think it's pretty closeto opposing his Venus in Taurus.
I think the Uranian energy iswhat allows Justin Vernon to
continuously innovate sonics andsounds that he's using.
He'll make you'll make sort ofcreative sounds out of the drums
.
He'll run them through theseprocessors and suddenly the drum
becomes like this sonicinstrument beyond just providing
(21:57):
rhythm, it's almost helping tovivify the entire composition
and he'll add in so many uniqueinstrumentations and blend them
together on top of his voice.
And that's something that he'sbeen innovating on consistently
since his very first album.
So you know again, this isgreat evidence that you know
(22:20):
Uranian people can continue tothrive and challenge, you know,
status quo ideas throughouttheir life.
And there's another argument, bythe way, that a Saturn return
doesn't even guarantee maturity.
There's plenty of people whohave gone through a Saturn
return who are still blissfullyunaware, and I think that is
true to some degree.
(22:41):
But I don't buy that argumentbecause I think there is still a
very real experience, no matterwhat that argument, because I
think there is still a very realexperience, no matter what.
And everybody, no matter howintrospective or not they are,
they have to make really heavychoices between 27 and 30.
Like, even if they don't fullyappreciate what's going on, it's
like your hard wiring ischanging, at least to some
(23:03):
extent, and you have someimplicit understanding that
there are consequences toactions.
You know you can extend this toother returns.
Like does an astrologer have towait until they're 84 to fully
understand a Uranus return?
Like, maybe right.
Like I've never experienced aUranus return.
Does that mean I can't, I'm notqualified to talk about it?
(23:24):
That's not true either.
In my opinion, Necessarily true.
You know, you could say like,maybe I have to wait, maybe I
don't, but I'm going to use thissort of as a vehicle to kind of
round this out and talk aboutwhy and how I think you can kind
of get clues about what you'resupposed to learn during your
(23:44):
Saturn return, way ahead of yourSaturn return, about what
you're supposed to learn duringyour Saturn return, way ahead of
your Saturn return, so that youknow and again, like you might
come out of this podcast feelinglike the Saturn return is like
an ultimate arbiter of like whoyou are and how you navigate
life.
And Saturn really does dealwith our manifestation efforts
(24:05):
because it does apply pressurein a way that allows for
manifestation.
But I want to give you sometools along this path to your
Saturn return so that yourSaturn return is one, not a
mystery.
I want to show you that youalready have gone through many
moments of maturity ahead ofyour Saturn return.
First of all, if you go by thedegree theory that I use, where
(24:25):
you convert the degree of eachplanet to an age where that
planet you know plays a dominantrole in your life, meaning you
convert the age or sorry, thedegree to the exact age that's
equivalent to that degree.
Then you can just look at yourSaturn degree and if it's before
27, then your Saturn wasactivated before your Saturn
return.
So if you have Saturn at 15degrees, age 15 will tell you a
(24:47):
lot about how your Saturnoperates, and also at the age of
15.
In that case you probably wouldhave sort of a miniature
reality check.
But also there are Saturntransits along the way to your
Saturn return, like the openingsquare of Saturn at age 7, the
opposition of Saturn at age 14,and the closing square at 21.
So by 21, you theoreticallyalready have a semblance of how
(25:10):
your natal Saturn is testing youand you've already been
pressured in some ways to matureAgain.
Track the degree of your Saturn, convert it to age and then
also look at ages 7, 14, and 21and reflect on all those times.
And as long as you do that, Ithink that you will have a
pretty clear sense of whatlessons you're meant to be
(25:32):
learning during your Saturnreturn and this can help you
anticipate your Saturn returnreally well.
And if you've already had yourSaturn return.
Look back to the ages of 27 to30 approximately, but also, to
be more specific about it, trackwhen Saturn entered the sign
that your natal Saturn is in.
So the theory is that yourSaturn return occurs from the
(25:54):
moment Saturn enters your natalSaturn sign placement to the
time that it leaves that sign.
So I have Saturn in Capricorn,meaning from December 2017 until
, I believe, end of 2020, thatwhole three-year stretch.
I was in my Saturn return, eventhough my Saturn is technically
at 21 degrees of cap.
However, your Saturn returnpeaks when Saturn forms a
(26:18):
partile conjunction to yournatal Saturn, so in my case,
when Saturn was at 21 degrees ofCapricorn, which I believe was
late 2019 into early 2020.
Fun times for me right duringthe pandemic.
I hope this podcast has beenthought-provoking for you and
I'm really curious to hear yourthoughts on this.
Do you believe that the Saturnreturn is an essential
(26:42):
crossroads and sort of gauntletthat people have to walk through
in order to kind of prove theirmettle, you know, and prove
their resilience and also provetheir understanding of kind of
what life is all about?
Do you feel like the people inyour life pre-27 are sort of not
(27:02):
equipped with the wisdomnecessary to be in positions of
like management or authority, ordo you feel like that's
complete BS?
Do you feel like people postage 30 are just, as you know,
prone to making mistakes aspeople pre 27?
Do you feel like it's sort of amixture of both?
(27:22):
You know, look at your own life.
You know what was going on.
I think maybe use friendship asan example, because, you know,
by looking at the lives of yourfriends, you can see how Saturn
operated for them.
Like what did your socialnetwork look like before 27 and
then after 30?
How did people orientthemselves to their own lives
and to reality before and afterthose moments?
(27:44):
Did you feel like people inyour life remained young and
free or did they feel much moreweighed down by something?
And then again, look at yourown life.
How do you operate before andafter those times?
And do you feel again like youcan put your faith into people
as thought leaders beforethey've gone through a Saturn
(28:04):
return?
You know, feel free to.
You know, leave a.
I don't know.
I wish there was like a way tocomment on the podcast.
I mean, feel free to, you know,maybe we should actually, you
know, do a discussion about thison my sub stack, cause I do
weekly videos, live videos,through that.
So I think I'll add that intomy sub stack.
You know, even just talk aboutthis amongst your friends and
family.
You know what did the Saturnreturn mean to them, and do they
(28:27):
notice a big difference intheir life after?
So?
Thank you so much.
I hope this has been agenerative discussion.
I'm Evan Nathaniel Grimm.
Again, check out my sub stack,my horoscopes and also I will be
doing more shows in Los Angeles, so look out for those
announcements, enroll in myclass about planetary
retrogrades, which just launched, and make sure you enroll
(28:47):
within the next week so you havetime to prep for the webinar
that I'll be delivering on the27th of April.
So thank you again, take careand I'll see you on the next
episode.
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Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.