February 25, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of the Sovereign Computing Show, hosts Jordan Bravo and Stephen DeLorme delve into the importance of self-hosting to maintain control over your digital data. They highlight the benefits of using NextCloud, an open-source suite that can replace Google Drive, iCloud, and other big tech solutions. They discuss various hosting options, including third-party providers like enclaive.io and the ease of self-hosting with StartOS. The episode also explores how to setup photo and file syncing, and why this approach enhances your digital sovereignty.
Show Notes: https://atlbitlab.com/pocast/how-to-get-secure-sovereign-personal-file-storage
00:00 Introduction and Personal Experience
00:33 Welcome to the Sovereign Computing Show
00:50 Sponsorship and Community at ATL BitLab
02:01 Discussion on DOGE and Data Security
08:35 Minimizing Your Digital Footprint
17:13 Boosting and Main Topic Introduction
17:55 Self-Hosted Files with NextCloud
20:50 Confidential Computing and Enclaive.io
26:02 NextCloud Features and Getting Started
37:14 Alternative Self-Hosting Solutions
42:32 Conclusion and Call to Action
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan Bravo (00:00):
It just kind of quietly does its job sitting there next to my router.
(00:05):
And I don't reallythink about it too much.
And I got to say the wifeapproval factor is two thumbs up.
We've been able to have transferall of our data, all of our docs,
our file, our photos, our videos.
And, um, it automaticallyuploads from each of our phones.
My wife is using iOS.
(00:26):
I'm using Android.
And we can also share things together.
Welcome to the Sovereign ComputingShow, presented by ATL BitLab.
I'm Jordan Bravo, and this is apodcast where we teach you how to
take back control of your devices.
Sovereign Computing means you own yourtechnology, not the other way around.
Stephen DeLorme (00:52):
This episode is sponsored by ATL BitLab.
ATL BitLab is Atlanta'sfreedom tech hacker space.
We have co working desks,conference rooms, event space,
maker tools, and tons of coffee.
There is a very activecommunity here in the lab.
Every Wednesday night isBitcoin night here in Atlanta.
We also have meetups for cyber security,artificial intelligence, decentralized
(01:12):
identity, product design, and more.
We offer day passes and nomad passesfor people who need to use the lab only
occasionally, as well as membershipsfor people who plan to use the lab
more regularly, such as myself.
One of the best things abouthaving a BitLab membership isn't
the amenities, it's the people.
Surrounding yourself with acommunity helps you learn faster
and helps you build better.
(01:33):
Your creativity becomes amplifiedwhen you work in this space,
that's what I think at least.
If you're interested in becominga member or supporting this space,
please visit us at atlbitlab.
com.
That's A T L B I T L A B dot com.
Alright, on to our show.
Jordan Bravo (01:54):
Welcome to the Sovereign Computing Show.
I'm Jordan Bravo, and I'm heretoday with Stephen DeLorme.
Stephen DeLorme (01:59):
What up?
Jordan Bravo (02:01):
Today, we have, rather than a specific news article,
we're going to talk about somethingthat's been in the news in the past.
The last few days or so, and that isthe Department of Government Efficiency
or DOGE and all of the, uh, data thatthey are harvesting and gathering from
(02:21):
various government agencies, and there'sbeen some controversy or concern about
whether these, whether, whether DOGE isdoing this in a secure manner, whether
they are going through the proper channelsand hoops and various regulations to
do these properly, or whether they'reirresponsibly grabbing data and doing
(02:44):
all kinds of AI analysis with it andjust being, um, less than secure with it.
Stephen DeLorme (02:50):
Yeah.
And instead of pulling up asingle news article, uh, I went to
perplexity, which I acknowledge isn'tthe most sovereign way to compute,
but, uh, I do like my AI tools,especially for information gathering.
I asked, what evidence do we haveof DOGE collecting the personal
information of us citizens?
Please try to be as specific as possible.
For example, which departmentsdid they get the data from?
(03:12):
What kind of information is it?
First name, last name, address,something more serious like date of
birth, social security, or reallyserious like medical info, tax info,
etc. And do we know what sorts ofsafeguards are in place for this data?
And it used a DeepSeek model andlike scoured the internet and it
came up with this kind of stuff.
Um, and so it looks like, you know, well,before I like launch into this, I think
(03:37):
it might be good to just like mentionoverall, but like trying to like separate
out the, like what data was accessed.
And was it protected separateout that matter from like
politically how we feel about DOGE?
Because like, you know, personally,I kind of like the idea of like
trimming, you know, trimming thefat of the U S federal government.
(04:00):
Not everybody's going toagree with me on that.
Um, but that's how I feel havingsaid that I can still, you know,
analyze, like separate out thisissue in my mind of like, Well, yeah.
What kind of data does the government hashave on all of us and was it accessed?
And so, uh, we'll put a link in theshow notes to this, um, perplexity
(04:22):
chat that you can look at, butit does a very good breakdown.
So stuff was accessedfrom treasury department.
Office of Personnel Management,Department of Education, Student
Aid Systems, Internal RevenueService, Health and Human Services.
And it cites sources to like newsarticles and stuff like this.
And so it then breaks down for us thedata sensitivity and risk profiles.
(04:45):
Tier one, identity theft enablers.
Social security numbers, uh,full names, birthdates, financial
identifiers, like bank account numbers.
So some of this data was accessed.
Then you have tier two stufflike exploitable health data.
That's medical diagnoses, prescriptionhistories, and disability status.
Um, so apparently someof this was accessed.
(05:06):
And then tier three, national securityadjacent information, security
clearances, um, classified agreementrecords, and the military service data.
Um, and then it goes into abreakdown of the safe safeguard
implementation or lack thereof.
And it is interesting.
This is where it gets into a littlebit of, I don't know, territory where
(05:28):
it's a little bit hard to kind ofparse if there's actually a problem
or not, um, because it does go inand break down to like, okay, um, you
know, for example, DOGE access systemsusing shared efficiency underscore
team at DOGE dot gov credentials.
Rather than individual PIV cardsviolating OMB M2209 requirements
(05:51):
for multi factor authentication.
Wow.
That was a mouthful.
Um, but like, and we canbreak down that for a second.
It doesn't necessarily mean thatlike, okay, the email address
that they used was insecure.
What it means is that the way in whichthey accessed the data in that scenario
(06:13):
was not up to par with a pre existingUm, government standard and like one
thing I can tell you is that like thereis all kinds of like security theater
out there in the corporate world andprobably in the government world to,
um, where it's just like here is ourstandard operating procedure for how
(06:35):
like, you know, sensitive data is handled.
And it is a bureaucratic rulethat the standard operating
procedure be followed in all cases.
It doesn't mean that there aren'tfive or ten other ways of handling the
data that aren't also secure, right?
It's just that those aren'tthe approved ways of doing it.
So, do we know that thisdata was handled securely?
(06:56):
I, I, I don't necessarily know.
We do know that it wasn't handledaccording to standard operating procedure.
Um, so yeah, that's awhole mess of information.
I'm going to stop right there andlet you chime in on this, Jordan.
Jordan Bravo (07:13):
I haven't followed this too closely, but from what I can gather, it
sounds like you have the, these processesin place in the federal government, which
is notoriously bureaucratic, and you haveDOGE coming in and saying, we need all All
of this data and the, the typical responsewould be, okay, well fill out form a,
(07:35):
b, c, d, e, and f and do all of thesethings, follow all these procedures and,
um, and DOGE just sort of overrode thatand said, no, we don't have time for that.
We're trying to be efficient.
We're trying to move quickly here.
So we'll just ignore a lot ofthese regulations and processes
and just grab the data and dowhat we need to do with it.
(07:56):
And, you know, regulations be damned.
Um, so I, I really have noopinion on whether that's a
good thing or a bad thing.
Uh, but here is, here's the way I see it.
If the information was already ingovernment databases, that's I
(08:17):
think that's a problem to beginwith or, or rather having too much
of our personal data to begin with.
It, to me, it doesn't concern me anymoreif it's in the hands of DOGE or if it's
in the hands of some federal bureaucracy.
Uh, I'm concerned with how canI minimize that data getting
there in the first place.
And so a lot of the things thatwe've talked about in the Sovereign
(08:38):
Computing Show so far, um, one ofour previous episodes, we talked
about email addresses and decouplingit from your identity, as well as
using aliases for different sources.
That would certainly help out minimizingyour digital footprint from any, being in
any of those databases in the first place.
Another thing we talked about in aprevious episode was, Phone numbers
(09:00):
and how you can decouple those fromyour identity and have multiple
phone numbers for different purposes.
Again, this would help youminimize the amount of databases
that you're in with your numberand your identity being attached.
And that includes these governmentdatabases so that if you have an
entity like DOGE or, or maybe it'ssomeone else that is completely
(09:21):
untrusted, like Chinese hackers orsome other hacking organization.
and they get the data, and thenit's leaked onto the dark web.
This would, these are preventativesteps that would help that, regardless
of who gets their hands on the data.
Stephen DeLorme (09:35):
Yeah, I think that's a, a, a good way of putting it,
because, um, when you think aboutit, it's like, okay, let's say DOGE
was not in there accessing this data.
Well, the data is already, you know,it's still sensitive data, and it's
still sitting there on all thesegovernment servers to begin with.
Somebody inside the governmentcould screw up, right?
(09:56):
Like It, it acts, you know, act, whethernefarious, whether intentionally nefarious
or just by accident, somebody couldscrew up and his data could leak anyways.
And so if the data leaked, well, youknow, shit, your data just leaked.
Another scenario that's kind of, youknow, again, just gets into it, like
how ludicrous are, um, uh, you know,digital world is, is that a lot of times
(10:23):
when you want to like onboard, you know,use a business and they need to KYC
verify you, or they just want to, youknow, uh, mitigate risk, they ask you
for all of this personal informationanyways, like you apply for a job.
I remember.
I remember working behind the counterat retail when I was like a teenager and
people would just like write their socialsecurity number on the job application
(10:45):
and we'd have a stack of like 50 ofthese things behind the counter and
it's like, we weren't like trained inlike data security and all this shit.
There's like tons ofsocial security numbers.
That we had access to.
So a lot of times you're signingup for all these services online.
They want all of this personal informationanyways, just so that they can ask the
government or use a tool like LexisNexisor something to verify, Hey, like, is this
(11:09):
a real person or something to that effect?
So, and if it, if it wasn't thegovernment leaking the data, it
would be these third party services.
Leaking the data thatwe're already using anyway.
So I think the question reallyis, how do you protect yourself?
And as you already pointed out, ifyou're worried about things like email
addresses and phone numbers, you canuse the tools discussed in previous
(11:31):
sovereign computing episodes for that.
Um, I think another thing too, mightjust be like the mindset of like, um,
thinking about what kind of data yougive out when you sign up for services.
So, you know, really thinkabout like when you are like
filling out a form for a website.
Do they need your home address, like dothey genuinely actually need your home
address for identity verification or arethey just, you know, asking, you know,
(11:56):
like, you know, so they have as much dataas possible because you could give a fake
address, like they don't, they're notentitled to your personal information.
You could also give a P. O. Box.
You could have a P. O. Box where you have,um, mail or packages shipped to, because
you might not want to share your personaladdress with everybody on the internet.
Um, you know, obviously be careful withyour social security number, but the
(12:18):
fact of the matter is, is that socialsecurity numbers have been leaked so
much on the internet already that Idon't really see it as like a valid
form of identity verification anymore.
Anyways, that's just part of the kind ofludicrousness of the world that we live
in, um, trying to think, are there any ofthe like pieces of data other than email,
phone number, address that we could like.
(12:40):
Reliably obscure and in this,uh, you know, data collection
apparatus, we live in?
Jordan Bravo (12:47):
Nothing comes to mind.
And to a certain extent, somethings that exist in a government
database are going to be.
Unchangeable.
So if you are a tax paying citizen,for example, there's going to be
some of your financial informationin the treasury departments and
the IRS is databases, right?
Just by necessity.
So I don't think there, you can'tscrub your, your, all of your
(13:10):
information out of these databases.
Period, uh, assuming you live onthe grid and have a paycheck and
pay taxes and that kind of thing.
But, um, we can certainlyminimize our footprint.
Stephen DeLorme (13:22):
Yeah, I guess you could, uh, you know, live off of Bitcoin forever.
And, uh, I mean, there are people who dothat who just like have no bank accounts.
And, uh, you know, for a lot of people,that's a tough way to live, you know,
especially, uh, you know, if you have likea mortgage and, you know, you're raising
a family and all that, but hey, theseare options that are available to you.
Yeah.
I mean, you can, you canput in your safeguard.
(13:43):
So if your bank accountinformation does get leaked, I
mean, think about the basics.
Do you have a strong passwordon your bank account?
Do you have two factorauthentication on your bank account?
Um, one thing I think that'sunder discussed with stuff like
bank accounts and all these is.
A lot of times, they ask usfor really stupid stuff, like,
especially like, older, more archaicum, uh, online banking systems.
(14:06):
They'll ask you these like, securityquestions, like if you lose your
password, like, what was your mother'smaiden name, what was your first
car, what was the first concert youattended, and all this kind of stuff.
And it's like, At first glance,that seems simple, but no,
people will guess that stuff.
If they, if they've gotten your data ina data dump, they might, they probably
(14:28):
already know your mother's maiden name.
They probably know where you grew up.
And so they can interpret like, or theycan intuit like, okay, you probably went
to like one of these 10 high schools.
they they can, you know, there's a lotof these things they can just guess.
And it's probably a lot easier toguess where someone went to high
school or what their mother's maidenname is rather than a random number.
(14:51):
So one thing you can consider is justmake up bullshit security questions.
Like if you have your password manager,um, and somebody, um, ask you, uh,
what the first concert you attendedwas don't actually put the first
concert, put some bullshit answer andstore it in your password manager.
Jordan Bravo (15:07):
Yeah, I do that.
And what I would recommend is.
Don't even try to come up withthe bullshit name on your own.
Just use your password managers,random word generation feature,
and then store it in that account.
And I've been doing that for severalyears now, and it works really well.
Um, I don't think you should tryto come up with it for yourself for
(15:30):
the same reason that you shouldn'ttry to generate your own password.
And that is that we as humansare not great at randomness.
So we tend to, uh, let patternsslip into those kinds of things,
even when we don't realize it.
Stephen DeLorme (15:43):
Yeah, because if, if, if someone's trying to guess, you
know, where you went to high school,they're going to be going through a
dictionary of possible names of likenormal sounding high school names.
And so probably, um, so if you, evenif you try to make up something,
if it's like something that couldfeasibly be a real high school name,
it will end up in their dictionary.
(16:03):
So.
Uh, don't do that.
It's like it, you're almost justtreating the security questions.
Like there are other random passwords.
Um, you know, you can put automatednotifications for your bank accounts.
You can freeze credit if you want to.
There's things like that.
So it's like, I think for me to, to,to kind of like maybe move this topic
(16:24):
towards con, you know, conclusionat least for now, is that, um.
I think that I don't know personally thatI'm actually really that worried about,
um, you know, DOGE leak leaking all mypersonal data, but the, the steps that
I would take to defend myself were thatto happen would be the same steps that I
(16:47):
would already use to defend myself fromthird party companies leaking my data.
Jordan Bravo (16:52):
Third party companies, government.
Agencies really anyone thatdoesn't need to have that data.
Stephen DeLorme (16:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Sovereign computing mindsetcan, you know, whether DOGE
is an angel or a demon to you.
The, the, the sovereign computingmindset can protect you either way.
Jordan Bravo (17:13):
All right.
Before we get into our main topic, I wantto remind everyone that you can boost
in with your sats and your messages.
Go to fountain.
fm and search for the ATL BitLab podcast.
That's going to be youreasiest way to send in a boost.
And you can, uh, use the fountainpodcasting app, or you can send it
(17:36):
from your other lightning enabled apps.
All right, what we're going to talkabout today is a great solution that
is going to really take a huge step inthe sovereign computing direction for
those of you who have not done so yet.
And we're going to talkabout self hosted files.
(17:58):
And what that, what that refers to isright now, most of us use either we have
Google drive or we have iCloud and allof our photos and videos and documents.
Are all synced to that automatically.
And it's just sort of become the defacto method of computing these days.
(18:18):
And what we're going to do today is talkabout how we can replace one of the,
these big tech solutions with one thatis completely under our own control.
And the primary.
And the third app that we'regoing to be using , to affect
that is called NextCloud.
And for those of you who haven'theard of NextCloud before, NextCloud
(18:38):
is a completely open source suite.
And you can host this on your own,or you can get a third party service
provider to host this for you.
And let's talk about hostingit on a third party first.
Nextcloud.
com And you might wonder, isn't thatjust as bad as having it on a third
party like Google or, um, Microsoft orApple or any of these other parties?
(19:05):
And a couple of reasons why thisis actually a better solution.
One is, The code, the apps itself,all the programs are open source and
they've had a lot more eyeballs on them.
A second one is that instead of being,if you have a third party provider,
most people will not have heard of it.
And instead of being a giant honeypotlike Google or iCloud is, which is.
(19:31):
They, whenever a hacker wants to breachsomething, they're going to go for
wherever they can get the most bangfor their buck, wherever they can
get the most data for their breach.
So if they breachGoogle, that's a jackpot.
They've got hundreds ofmillions or billions of users.
And so.
They, they're also well known anybodywho is a hacker, anybody who is
(19:52):
a cyber criminal trying to breachdata, they want to go for these big
targets, whereas some third partyprovider that you're hosting NextCloud
on, they don't even know it exists.
So that's one reason.
Another reason is you can actuallyhave them hosted on third party
providers that have zero access toyour data for technological reasons.
(20:14):
And we're going to talkabout one here in particular.
Um, I want to caveat it and saythat I've never used this myself,
but it does seem very intriguing.
And so if you are listening, we arelooking at a, a site called Enclave.
It's enclave.
io that's E N C L A I V. io.
(20:37):
And the reason that thisis interesting is it uses.
Some, um, fairly advanced technologyto host it in a way that makes it
impossible for the provider here,Enclave, to access your data.
Um, maybe Stephen, you could talk alittle bit more about that technology.
Stephen DeLorme (20:54):
Yeah, it's, I'm not going to pretend that I understand it
super deeply, though I hope to one day.
It's this kind of new paradigm calledconfidential computing, and it's, you
know, I guess the way to think aboutit is, you know, you know, if you're a
technical person, you might be familiarwith like concepts like the secure enclave
(21:16):
on the iPhone, it's supposed to be thislike area where you can store sensitive
secrets like passwords and key material.
And, uh, it's, you know, once it'sin the secure enclave, it's supposed
to be, um, you know, you know, very,very difficult to get it out of the
enclave without, you know, going throughlike an actually, you know, the user
(21:37):
entering their password and all that.
Right.
So I kind of think of confidentialcomputing as kind of like a
secure enclave, but for actuallyrunning compute processes.
Um, and, uh, so, excuse me.
So the confidential computing paradigm,the way I understand it is that.
(21:59):
There is actually this way that youcan generate a proof that like whatever
output you get, um, from the computerwas, you know, run on a specific
kind of hardware and knowing that thekind of hardware that it was run on,
you know, you can, you know, then.
(22:19):
Uh, you know, verify, you know,just by the nature of that hardware
that it, um, uh, you know, was, wasnot susceptible to eavesdropping.
Uh, if somebody knows a lot moreabout confidential computing, uh,
I would love it if you boost in andlike school school us on it because
I probably sound like an idiot if youactually know what you're talking about.
But.
The two kind of confidential computeenvironments I understand right now
(22:43):
are Intel SGX and then, uh, Amazonhas one called AWS Nitro Enclave.
Uh, so if you spin up cloud containerswith like AWS EC2, you can choose Nitro
Enclave as an option, um, and that'sa confidential compute environment.
And I think actually ACINQ, the, thecompany that does a lot of, they do a
lot of, if you're in the Bitcoin space,you might know them because they, uh,
(23:06):
run the Phoenix wallet and all that.
Yeah.
Um, they have a really large lightningnode called, just called ACINQ.
It's on the lightning network.
And I think that's actuallyrun on a Nitro enclave.
That's what I've heard at least.
Um, but yeah, so this company isrunning, uh, NextCloud instances
in, uh, confidential computeenvironments, which is super cool.
And if you go to their website, Imean, they have all kinds of stuff.
(23:27):
They have like, ConfidentialAI and all kinds of stuff.
So I don't know, it's worth looking into,but that's a whole other rabbit hole.
Jordan Bravo (23:35):
Does Enclave's website say where they're located?
Stephen DeLorme (23:39):
Uh, they have a GMBH in their name.
So I think they're German.
Jordan Bravo (23:43):
Okay.
Stephen DeLorme (23:44):
Um, that would be my guess.
Jordan Bravo (23:47):
Yeah, that sounds right.
Stephen DeLorme (23:49):
Yeah.
Former executives of Germany'stop five cyber companies.
We're just looking at their about page.
Yeah.
Jordan Bravo (23:55):
It sounds like they're German.
Stephen DeLorme (23:57):
I mean, this might be a good like kind of point to like
highlight the kind of cultural difference.
I've heard that so many different.
Like either government organizations inGermany are so companies in Germany use
NextCloud, which is wild to think about.
Cause like Google drive and Google forbusiness just seems like the default for
(24:18):
any small company in America, but there's,I think just, I don't know if it's just
a legal thing in the European union orif it's also a cultural thing, but I
think there is a different expectationaround, Data privacy in Europe, um,
and if you're in Europe, again, boostin and let us know, is this all legal
(24:41):
stuff or are we correct on that?
Is there a better, uh,expectation around data privacy?
And if so, is that mostly a legalthing or is it also just a general
cultural norm around, um, data privacy?
Um, but yeah, I've just heardthe NextCloud has like a lot
of like usage over there.
(25:02):
Um,
Jordan Bravo (25:02):
Yeah.
NextCloud itself, the company,I think they're also a GMBH.
So they are based out of Germany.
And so they have a lot of theirclientele is in Germany, German
corporations, German governments,uh, education, that kind of thing.
Whereas in the U S it would beeither Microsoft or Google typically.
(25:24):
And I think it was in 2022 when itwas a fairly big announcement that A
large portion of the German governmentwas switching from Microsoft Office
365 kind of deal over to NextCloudsort of self hosted or, you know,
on prem kind of, uh, solutions.
(25:44):
So, uh,
go ahead.
Stephen DeLorme (25:47):
Uh, well, I was actually going to wonder, uh, it sounded
like you had somewhere you wanted togo next, but I was wondering since.
We're getting into a littlebit into the weeds with the
Nextcloud hosting and all of that.
But I was wondering, should wedig into a little bit of their
like photo product or any of thelike file sharing stuff they do?
Jordan Bravo (26:02):
Yeah, I think I should talk about what it, what Nextcloud is maybe
before we get into the details of it.
So Nextcloud is a suite of softwareand it can completely replace things
like Google Drive, Google Docs,Microsoft OneDrive, Office 365.
(26:22):
Um, so the typical functionality thatall of us would consider part and parcel
of having a smartphone and a cloudaccount, you can completely replace it
with something that is self sovereign,privacy respecting, that you control.
So, uh, the biggest things that I use,for example, in my day to day life
(26:44):
I, I use the photo and file syncingso that if I take a photo on my
smartphone, it automatically uploadsit to my personal NextCloud server.
And my family and I can sharethat the same way you could share,
let's say, Google Drive files.
I also save my documents to that.
(27:05):
Um, and then NextCloud also doesmy contacts and my calendars.
And so we talked about this in the episodefocusing on contacts and calendars, but
NextCloud out of the box gives you asyncing for your contacts and calendars.
And then when you log, so you canuse the clients on your phone.
(27:25):
There's the NextCloud client forphoto syncing, for file syncing.
There's also your, your nativeCalendar and contacts apps will sync
to Nextcloud, but then you can alsovisit your Nextcloud server in the
browser and there's an entire frontend and all the apps have a front end
suite that you can use in the browser.
(27:47):
You can also use, it has something calledOnlyOffice, which is like a free and
open source version of Microsoft Office.
365, which you access in your browser.
You can also access it inyour browser with NextCloud.
And, um, a quick aside, there's also adownloadable and installable version,
(28:08):
just like there is with Microsoft office.
Uh, so I wanted to mentionthat in case you're the kind
of person who likes to use it.
Edit it offline becauseI'm like that as well.
I think it's always got a snappierfeel and better response when you
have the app installed locally, ratherthan using it through the browser.
But I just wanted tomention that really quickly.
(28:30):
Um, so, so I wanted toshow this off a little bit.
And if you are watching thevideo, you could see that we are
browsing the NextCloud app store.
And in addition to the basicapps that I just talked about,
like contacts, calendars, files.
You can use, you can also downloadand install a host of other apps.
So if you have various productivityapps, you can install it into
(28:53):
NextCloud with a one, with one click.
Um, they have a forms, which is likea Google forms replacement, um, news.
Talk, which is like Google talkor maybe even a Slack type of
replacement deck, which I thinkis, uh, maybe a Kanban board.
Stephen DeLorme (29:10):
Yeah.
It looks like a Trello alternative.
Jordan Bravo (29:12):
Yep.
Stephen DeLorme (29:13):
I'd like to run that.
Jordan Bravo (29:14):
Um, you can use security features like two fact factor
authentication and NextCloud evenhas AI that runs on your NextCloud
server, not sending data back to anythird party, but it'll do things like.
Uh, you get AI file search andAI email completions and, um, I
(29:35):
think AI photo search as well.
Stephen DeLorme (29:39):
Are all these apps that we're looking at on the screen here,
because there's a lot of them, are all ofthese developed by NextCloud or are some
of these like third party like plugins?
Jordan Bravo (29:48):
A lot of these are community plugins, but they are all, uh, open source
and they are semi curated by NextCloud.
Stephen DeLorme (29:59):
Hmm.
Yeah, because I was looking and I waslike, wow, there's a lot of these things.
Jordan Bravo (30:05):
So how does one get started with NextCloud if they are interested?
Well, like we said, you can useone of these third party providers.
If you go to nextcloud.
com, they have a list of other providers.
One of them being that Enclave that werecently talked about that is a secure
and has, has a secure computing hardware,but there's a whole host of other
(30:27):
providers, however, For me, the holygrail is self hosting on your own server.
And the way you can do thisvery easily is with, uh, StartOS
running on a home server.
So for, we've talked about this before,but Start9 is a great solution for
self hosting for, uh, on easy mode.
(30:48):
They make a operating system that allowsyou to run a server without any command
line usage, without any Linux experience.
You can just.
Point and click in agraphical user interface.
And one of the things that youcan install, they have a list of
apps as well in their marketplace.
And one of them that youcan install is NextCloud.
Stephen DeLorme (31:10):
Does I wonder if Umbrel does it now too?
Cause I know like Umbrelis kind of like pivoting.
To like be, um, I don't know, like,uh, Hey, we're not just a lightning,
Jordan Bravo (31:21):
the app store.
Stephen DeLorme (31:22):
Yeah.
Jordan Bravo (31:23):
Yeah.
So, uh, Umbrel started out asbeing a Bitcoin and lightning
node and it looks like now theyhave a host of other apps as well.
I'm seeing NextCloud, Plex.
Stephen DeLorme (31:35):
I mean, they kind of pivoted to be a little bit more like
Start9 from Start9 from my perspective.
Um, they, they, I think when I,they first launched, I remember
them kind of marketing themselvesas like, become Bitcoin woo.
And then they kind of switched it tomore of like, all your apps, all in
one place, you know, sort of thing.
So there's a lot of overlap.
(31:57):
Um, I don't know, do you havelike a preference between the two?
Jordan Bravo (32:00):
Um, I like StartOS, uh, for a couple of reasons.
One, I think technically they have apretty hardcore security model where
they've They've taken, um, they startedout with Debian Linux and they've
really done a ton of work on theoperating system itself to secure it.
(32:20):
I think Umbrel from the last time Ichecked, I could be wrong and out of my
information be out of date here, but thelast time I checked Umbrel seemed more
kind of like a slap dash solution thatthey just kind of threw some apps and
scripts on top of a Linux distribution.
That's no shade to Umbrel.
I know a lot of peoplerun it and it works great.
(32:41):
But that's just the impression I got.
Uh, the other thing is, is simply acharacter, uh, enjoyment that I get
out of seeing all of the Start9 guyson podcasts, interviews, and meeting
them in person, they all seem to reallyhave the sovereign computing mindset.
And, um, I just think that.
(33:02):
Seems like they have a really goodmission that aligns well with the
kind of stuff we talk about here.
Stephen DeLorme (33:10):
Do you run it on Start9?
Or do you run Nextcloud on StartOS?
Or do you have like ahome home-rolled solution?
Jordan Bravo (33:16):
I have my own Linux server that I've built up on my own.
But I have run Start9 and StartOS.
To play around with it.
And I really enjoy it.
Um, it's just that for me, I'mvery, I'm a technical person.
I'm a software engineer.
I have a lot of Linux experience, soI was able to set this up on my own.
I did it partly for learning purposes,but also because I wanted it to be
(33:39):
configured in a very specific way.
Um, but I would say for those of you whohave no interest in Linux or the terminal
or any of that advanced stuff, I thinkone of these graphical installers like
Start9 or Umbrel is, is a great way to go.
Stephen DeLorme (33:56):
How, how hard is it to maintain?
Like, uh, just, I'm just curious.
I know for most people aren'tgoing to go to Linux and install
it from command line, but.
Do you find yourself needingto maintain stuff a lot on it?
Like,
Jordan Bravo (34:09):
Uh, no.
It was a lot of work upfront toget things rolling and then now
I hardly ever think about it.
Maybe once every six months or oncea year, I might, uh, check in on
it and run an update just to makesure I have all the latest software.
But then it just kind of quietly doesits job sitting there next to my router.
(34:34):
And I don't reallythink about it too much.
And I got to say the wifeapproval factor is two thumbs up.
We've been able to have transferall of our data, all of our docs,
our file, our photos, our videos.
And, um, it automaticallyuploads from each of our phones.
My wife is using iOS.
(34:55):
I'm using Android.
And we can also share things together.
So for example, we have ashared folder where, uh, I
might be taking photos online.
She's taking photos on hers.
They both upload to ourrespective accounts.
But then we can drag some, someof them into our shared folder
and say, Hey, these are the onesfrom little Johnny's birthday.
(35:16):
Check them out.
And then this is also great forsharing with the extended family.
So instead of sending a Googleor requiring my family to have
a Google account or somethinglike that, or an iCloud account.
I can just send them a link comesright back to my home server and
it's a gallery that I've curated forthem and they can click through and
download high res versions of allthe videos and photos that I send.
Stephen DeLorme (35:39):
Oh, that's cool.
I like that.
Jordan Bravo (35:41):
Yeah.
Um, on a similar topic, Imentioned before that they have
NextCloud version of Google forms.
Um, you can also do that.
These are great toolsto be really sovereign.
I'm still like.
You could send somebody a, a form for themto fill out, and that's all on your own.
Nextcloud, you could send them, um, let'ssee, what are, what are other things
(36:03):
that we tend to send people in our dailylives, our, our digital, productive lives?
Stephen DeLorme (36:11):
Polls, maybe?
Jordan Bravo (36:13):
Yeah.
Uh, Nextcloud has polls, I believe.
Stephen DeLorme (36:16):
What?
Jordan Bravo (36:16):
Yeah.
So we've got polls, we've got forms.
Stephen DeLorme (36:22):
He even has a podcast player.
Jordan Bravo (36:25):
Oh, wow.
I know there's also an app.
I'm not sure if it's thirdparty or if it's already
installed with the calendar app.
But it's basically like Calendly,if that's the way to say it.
Stephen DeLorme (36:36):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jordan Bravo (36:37):
Yeah, so it's like, it's like Calendly, but it's
on your own Nextcloud instance.
So you can have people, you send thema link, they click it, it opens up a
page that allows them to schedule a timewith you and puts time on your calendar.
Stephen DeLorme (36:49):
I like that.
I really like that.
Yeah, that's cool.
Jordan Bravo (36:55):
Uh, any, anything coming to mind, Stephen?
Stephen DeLorme (36:59):
I need to give NextCloud another shot.
That's all cool.
I just need to set aside some timeto actually give it another shot.
Jordan Bravo (37:07):
Um, I'm going to talk before we completely move
off the topic of self hosting.
I want to give a shout outto an app called image.
That's for those of you listening, it'sI M M I C H. And what this is, it's
a different app that you self host,but it's meant to be a replacement
(37:30):
for Google photos and videos.
And it's, It doesn't do standard files.
It doesn't have the full kind of officesuite nature of NextCloud, but it's
really focused on just being a greatuser experience for photos and videos.
It's got everything from abeautiful viewer to the kind of.
(37:50):
Extra features that you wouldexpect from Google photos and
iCloud, where they have AI search.
So you might type in, um, Paris trip,and it's going to show you all of the
photos from your trip to Paris or cat.
And it's got all of your cat, cat photos.
So it's using AI to do that search.
It's also got a feature.
Stephen DeLorme (38:11):
Sick dinosaur photos.
Sorry, I'm in the image demo right now.
Like looking at their pictures.
Jordan Bravo (38:16):
Yeah, we're looking at the image demo server.
It's also got the feature thatiCloud and I think Google Photos
has of It shows you memories.
So it'll say this time last year,and it gives you a cute little
slideshow, or it shows you a bunchof a slideshow, a bunch of photos
and videos from a particular event.
Stephen DeLorme (38:39):
Yeah, this does seem very nice.
I mean, it reminds me of what was thatGoogle used to have some application
that you could use to like upload photosto them or whatever a long time ago.
Jordan Bravo (38:52):
Before Google Photos?
Stephen DeLorme (38:54):
I think it might have become Google Photos.
But I'm trying to thinkwhat the name of it was.
I thought it began with aP or something like that.
PL something.
I don't know.
There was like, there was Flickrthat a lot of people used for photos.
And then there was some other servicewith a, you know, clever name with like
(39:14):
a vowel taken out or something like that.
I thought Google boughtthem or something like that.
Um.
It was, um, I don't know, thislike, this reminds me of it a lot.
Um, just the, the UX of that kind ofservice, uh, it feels familiar to me.
It looks very nice looking,looking through the interface.
I mean, you know, it bringsup all the photos, very big.
(39:38):
There's no, like, there's not a lot oflike negative space between the photos.
Jordan Bravo (39:43):
And it's supposed to have really good optimization for
loading so you don't wait a long time.
It's got nice resolution.
Stephen DeLorme (39:51):
It feels snappy.
I'm just like zipping througheverything with an arrow key.
Jordan Bravo (39:56):
It's also got a mobile app for iOS and Android that
are supposed to be pretty slick.
The reason I'm saying supposed to beis I've heard a lot of good things.
But I haven't actually installed it onmy server yet to try it out personally.
So I don't want to, uh, speakwithout experience there.
Stephen DeLorme (40:11):
Well, I like this timeline.
It shows you the dates on theright hand side of the screen.
We can go back to 2001.
Wow.
This person was at a hut in 2001.
Uh, anyways.
Jordan Bravo (40:25):
All right.
Before we close out the app focussegment, I want to give a. Honorable
mention to something called SyncThing.
And if you are interested in a solutionthat doesn't have a big tech, uh,
solution behind it for syncing and backingup your files, check out SyncThing.
(40:47):
This, the reason that I'm mentioningthis as an honorable mention is
because it's not actually going togive you the same experience of having
a server that's hosting your files.
What this does is you don't need a server.
You just have, let's say your laptop.
Your and your phone, maybe you havea desktop as well, but you just
put the client, the sync client oneach of those devices and it will
(41:09):
sync the files between them anytimethat they have internet access.
So you don't have a centralized server.
That's ho that keeps your files,but it does keep your files
in sync across your devices.
But the nice thing about thatis that no server is required.
Stephen DeLorme (41:24):
That is pretty cool.
It reminds me of how Obsidian Syncworks, which Obsidian might be a good
thing to discuss in a future episode.
But yeah, I mean, the basic gistof how that, yeah, it sounds
exactly like what you described.
Like, I can set it up on my laptopand my phone and I'll always have
the same files on each of those.
Just kind of nice.
(41:45):
It's actually, it's actually kind ofa clever way of thinking about it.
That it's like, if you alreadyhave all of these devices.
Then you can just, um, you know,instead of like paying for some
backup or whatever, uh, some kindof backup service, you can just
keep copies on all your devices.
So that works for some things, I think.
Jordan Bravo (42:07):
And it goes without saying, or maybe it doesn't go
without saying, but we try to use opensource solutions whenever possible.
Cause that gives us a littlemore assurance that no
funny business is happening.
Um, and SyncThing is fully open source.
Stephen DeLorme (42:26):
Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
Jordan Bravo (42:27):
Uh, I think that, that, that does it for our topic today.
If you want to boost in,you can do that at fountain.
fm and search for the ATL BitLab podcast.
We'd love to hear yourthoughts on today's topic.
And let us know if you are interestedin any other topics, or if you want
to know more about how to host selfhost your own NextCloud instance or
(42:52):
other kinds of solutions for gettingoff of these big tech services.
Stephen DeLorme (42:57):
Yep.
Boost in everybody.
Jordan Bravo (42:59):
All right.
Thanks a lot, everyone.
And we'll see you next time.
Stephen DeLorme (43:02):
Later.
Hey, thanks for listening.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you want to learn more aboutanything that we discussed, you can
look for links in the show notesthat should be in your podcast
player, or you can go to atlbitlab.
com slash podcast.
On a final note, if you foundthis information useful and you
want to help support us, you canalways send us a tip in Bitcoin.
(43:26):
Your support really helps us so that wecan keep bringing you content like this.
All right.
Catch you later.
It just kind of quietly does its job sitting there next to my router.
(00:05):
And I don't reallythink about it too much.
And I got to say the wifeapproval factor is two thumbs up.
We've been able to have transferall of our data, all of our docs,
our file, our photos, our videos.
And, um, it automaticallyuploads from each of our phones.
My wife is using iOS.
(00:26):
I'm using Android.
And we can also share things together.
Welcome to the Sovereign ComputingShow, presented by ATL BitLab.
I'm Jordan Bravo, and this is apodcast where we teach you how to
take back control of your devices.
Sovereign Computing means you own yourtechnology, not the other way around.
Stephen DeLorme (00:52):
This episode is sponsored by ATL BitLab.
ATL BitLab is Atlanta'sfreedom tech hacker space.
We have co working desks,conference rooms, event space,
maker tools, and tons of coffee.
There is a very activecommunity here in the lab.
Every Wednesday night isBitcoin night here in Atlanta.
We also have meetups for cyber security,artificial intelligence, decentralized
(01:12):
identity, product design, and more.
We offer day passes and nomad passesfor people who need to use the lab only
occasionally, as well as membershipsfor people who plan to use the lab
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One of the best things abouthaving a BitLab membership isn't
the amenities, it's the people.
Surrounding yourself with acommunity helps you learn faster
and helps you build better.
(01:33):
Your creativity becomes amplifiedwhen you work in this space,
that's what I think at least.
If you're interested in becominga member or supporting this space,
please visit us at atlbitlab.
com.
That's A T L B I T L A B dot com.
Alright, on to our show.
Jordan Bravo (01:54):
Welcome to the Sovereign Computing Show.
I'm Jordan Bravo, and I'm heretoday with Stephen DeLorme.
Stephen DeLorme (01:59):
What up?
Jordan Bravo (02:01):
Today, we have, rather than a specific news article,
we're going to talk about somethingthat's been in the news in the past.
The last few days or so, and that isthe Department of Government Efficiency
or DOGE and all of the, uh, data thatthey are harvesting and gathering from
(02:21):
various government agencies, and there'sbeen some controversy or concern about
whether these, whether, whether DOGE isdoing this in a secure manner, whether
they are going through the proper channelsand hoops and various regulations to
do these properly, or whether they'reirresponsibly grabbing data and doing
(02:44):
all kinds of AI analysis with it andjust being, um, less than secure with it.
Stephen DeLorme (02:50):
Yeah.
And instead of pulling up asingle news article, uh, I went to
perplexity, which I acknowledge isn'tthe most sovereign way to compute,
but, uh, I do like my AI tools,especially for information gathering.
I asked, what evidence do we haveof DOGE collecting the personal
information of us citizens?
Please try to be as specific as possible.
For example, which departmentsdid they get the data from?
(03:12):
What kind of information is it?
First name, last name, address,something more serious like date of
birth, social security, or reallyserious like medical info, tax info,
etc. And do we know what sorts ofsafeguards are in place for this data?
And it used a DeepSeek model andlike scoured the internet and it
came up with this kind of stuff.
Um, and so it looks like, you know, well,before I like launch into this, I think
(03:37):
it might be good to just like mentionoverall, but like trying to like separate
out the, like what data was accessed.
And was it protected separateout that matter from like
politically how we feel about DOGE?
Because like, you know, personally,I kind of like the idea of like
trimming, you know, trimming thefat of the U S federal government.
(04:00):
Not everybody's going toagree with me on that.
Um, but that's how I feel havingsaid that I can still, you know,
analyze, like separate out thisissue in my mind of like, Well, yeah.
What kind of data does the government hashave on all of us and was it accessed?
And so, uh, we'll put a link in theshow notes to this, um, perplexity
(04:22):
chat that you can look at, butit does a very good breakdown.
So stuff was accessedfrom treasury department.
Office of Personnel Management,Department of Education, Student
Aid Systems, Internal RevenueService, Health and Human Services.
And it cites sources to like newsarticles and stuff like this.
And so it then breaks down for us thedata sensitivity and risk profiles.
(04:45):
Tier one, identity theft enablers.
Social security numbers, uh,full names, birthdates, financial
identifiers, like bank account numbers.
So some of this data was accessed.
Then you have tier two stufflike exploitable health data.
That's medical diagnoses, prescriptionhistories, and disability status.
Um, so apparently someof this was accessed.
(05:06):
And then tier three, national securityadjacent information, security
clearances, um, classified agreementrecords, and the military service data.
Um, and then it goes into abreakdown of the safe safeguard
implementation or lack thereof.
And it is interesting.
This is where it gets into a littlebit of, I don't know, territory where
(05:28):
it's a little bit hard to kind ofparse if there's actually a problem
or not, um, because it does go inand break down to like, okay, um, you
know, for example, DOGE access systemsusing shared efficiency underscore
team at DOGE dot gov credentials.
Rather than individual PIV cardsviolating OMB M2209 requirements
(05:51):
for multi factor authentication.
Wow.
That was a mouthful.
Um, but like, and we canbreak down that for a second.
It doesn't necessarily mean thatlike, okay, the email address
that they used was insecure.
What it means is that the way in whichthey accessed the data in that scenario
(06:13):
was not up to par with a pre existingUm, government standard and like one
thing I can tell you is that like thereis all kinds of like security theater
out there in the corporate world andprobably in the government world to,
um, where it's just like here is ourstandard operating procedure for how
(06:35):
like, you know, sensitive data is handled.
And it is a bureaucratic rulethat the standard operating
procedure be followed in all cases.
It doesn't mean that there aren'tfive or ten other ways of handling the
data that aren't also secure, right?
It's just that those aren'tthe approved ways of doing it.
So, do we know that thisdata was handled securely?
(06:56):
I, I, I don't necessarily know.
We do know that it wasn't handledaccording to standard operating procedure.
Um, so yeah, that's awhole mess of information.
I'm going to stop right there andlet you chime in on this, Jordan.
Jordan Bravo (07:13):
I haven't followed this too closely, but from what I can gather, it
sounds like you have the, these processesin place in the federal government, which
is notoriously bureaucratic, and you haveDOGE coming in and saying, we need all All
of this data and the, the typical responsewould be, okay, well fill out form a,
(07:35):
b, c, d, e, and f and do all of thesethings, follow all these procedures and,
um, and DOGE just sort of overrode thatand said, no, we don't have time for that.
We're trying to be efficient.
We're trying to move quickly here.
So we'll just ignore a lot ofthese regulations and processes
and just grab the data and dowhat we need to do with it.
(07:56):
And, you know, regulations be damned.
Um, so I, I really have noopinion on whether that's a
good thing or a bad thing.
Uh, but here is, here's the way I see it.
If the information was already ingovernment databases, that's I
(08:17):
think that's a problem to beginwith or, or rather having too much
of our personal data to begin with.
It, to me, it doesn't concern me anymoreif it's in the hands of DOGE or if it's
in the hands of some federal bureaucracy.
Uh, I'm concerned with how canI minimize that data getting
there in the first place.
And so a lot of the things thatwe've talked about in the Sovereign
(08:38):
Computing Show so far, um, one ofour previous episodes, we talked
about email addresses and decouplingit from your identity, as well as
using aliases for different sources.
That would certainly help out minimizingyour digital footprint from any, being in
any of those databases in the first place.
Another thing we talked about in aprevious episode was, Phone numbers
(09:00):
and how you can decouple those fromyour identity and have multiple
phone numbers for different purposes.
Again, this would help youminimize the amount of databases
that you're in with your numberand your identity being attached.
And that includes these governmentdatabases so that if you have an
entity like DOGE or, or maybe it'ssomeone else that is completely
(09:21):
untrusted, like Chinese hackers orsome other hacking organization.
and they get the data, and thenit's leaked onto the dark web.
This would, these are preventativesteps that would help that, regardless
of who gets their hands on the data.
Stephen DeLorme (09:35):
Yeah, I think that's a, a, a good way of putting it,
because, um, when you think aboutit, it's like, okay, let's say DOGE
was not in there accessing this data.
Well, the data is already, you know,it's still sensitive data, and it's
still sitting there on all thesegovernment servers to begin with.
Somebody inside the governmentcould screw up, right?
(09:56):
Like It, it acts, you know, act, whethernefarious, whether intentionally nefarious
or just by accident, somebody couldscrew up and his data could leak anyways.
And so if the data leaked, well, youknow, shit, your data just leaked.
Another scenario that's kind of, youknow, again, just gets into it, like
how ludicrous are, um, uh, you know,digital world is, is that a lot of times
(10:23):
when you want to like onboard, you know,use a business and they need to KYC
verify you, or they just want to, youknow, uh, mitigate risk, they ask you
for all of this personal informationanyways, like you apply for a job.
I remember.
I remember working behind the counterat retail when I was like a teenager and
people would just like write their socialsecurity number on the job application
(10:45):
and we'd have a stack of like 50 ofthese things behind the counter and
it's like, we weren't like trained inlike data security and all this shit.
There's like tons ofsocial security numbers.
That we had access to.
So a lot of times you're signingup for all these services online.
They want all of this personal informationanyways, just so that they can ask the
government or use a tool like LexisNexisor something to verify, Hey, like, is this
(11:09):
a real person or something to that effect?
So, and if it, if it wasn't thegovernment leaking the data, it
would be these third party services.
Leaking the data thatwe're already using anyway.
So I think the question reallyis, how do you protect yourself?
And as you already pointed out, ifyou're worried about things like email
addresses and phone numbers, you canuse the tools discussed in previous
(11:31):
sovereign computing episodes for that.
Um, I think another thing too, mightjust be like the mindset of like, um,
thinking about what kind of data yougive out when you sign up for services.
So, you know, really thinkabout like when you are like
filling out a form for a website.
Do they need your home address, like dothey genuinely actually need your home
address for identity verification or arethey just, you know, asking, you know,
(11:56):
like, you know, so they have as much dataas possible because you could give a fake
address, like they don't, they're notentitled to your personal information.
You could also give a P. O. Box.
You could have a P. O. Box where you have,um, mail or packages shipped to, because
you might not want to share your personaladdress with everybody on the internet.
Um, you know, obviously be careful withyour social security number, but the
(12:18):
fact of the matter is, is that socialsecurity numbers have been leaked so
much on the internet already that Idon't really see it as like a valid
form of identity verification anymore.
Anyways, that's just part of the kind ofludicrousness of the world that we live
in, um, trying to think, are there any ofthe like pieces of data other than email,
phone number, address that we could like.
(12:40):
Reliably obscure and in this,uh, you know, data collection
apparatus, we live in?
Jordan Bravo (12:47):
Nothing comes to mind.
And to a certain extent, somethings that exist in a government
database are going to be.
Unchangeable.
So if you are a tax paying citizen,for example, there's going to be
some of your financial informationin the treasury departments and
the IRS is databases, right?
Just by necessity.
So I don't think there, you can'tscrub your, your, all of your
(13:10):
information out of these databases.
Period, uh, assuming you live onthe grid and have a paycheck and
pay taxes and that kind of thing.
But, um, we can certainlyminimize our footprint.
Stephen DeLorme (13:22):
Yeah, I guess you could, uh, you know, live off of Bitcoin forever.
And, uh, I mean, there are people who dothat who just like have no bank accounts.
And, uh, you know, for a lot of people,that's a tough way to live, you know,
especially, uh, you know, if you have likea mortgage and, you know, you're raising
a family and all that, but hey, theseare options that are available to you.
Yeah.
I mean, you can, you canput in your safeguard.
(13:43):
So if your bank accountinformation does get leaked, I
mean, think about the basics.
Do you have a strong passwordon your bank account?
Do you have two factorauthentication on your bank account?
Um, one thing I think that'sunder discussed with stuff like
bank accounts and all these is.
A lot of times, they ask usfor really stupid stuff, like,
especially like, older, more archaicum, uh, online banking systems.
(14:06):
They'll ask you these like, securityquestions, like if you lose your
password, like, what was your mother'smaiden name, what was your first
car, what was the first concert youattended, and all this kind of stuff.
And it's like, At first glance,that seems simple, but no,
people will guess that stuff.
If they, if they've gotten your data ina data dump, they might, they probably
(14:28):
already know your mother's maiden name.
They probably know where you grew up.
And so they can interpret like, or theycan intuit like, okay, you probably went
to like one of these 10 high schools.
they they can, you know, there's a lotof these things they can just guess.
And it's probably a lot easier toguess where someone went to high
school or what their mother's maidenname is rather than a random number.
(14:51):
So one thing you can consider is justmake up bullshit security questions.
Like if you have your password manager,um, and somebody, um, ask you, uh,
what the first concert you attendedwas don't actually put the first
concert, put some bullshit answer andstore it in your password manager.
Jordan Bravo (15:07):
Yeah, I do that.
And what I would recommend is.
Don't even try to come up withthe bullshit name on your own.
Just use your password managers,random word generation feature,
and then store it in that account.
And I've been doing that for severalyears now, and it works really well.
Um, I don't think you should tryto come up with it for yourself for
(15:30):
the same reason that you shouldn'ttry to generate your own password.
And that is that we as humansare not great at randomness.
So we tend to, uh, let patternsslip into those kinds of things,
even when we don't realize it.
Stephen DeLorme (15:43):
Yeah, because if, if, if someone's trying to guess, you
know, where you went to high school,they're going to be going through a
dictionary of possible names of likenormal sounding high school names.
And so probably, um, so if you, evenif you try to make up something,
if it's like something that couldfeasibly be a real high school name,
it will end up in their dictionary.
(16:03):
So.
Uh, don't do that.
It's like it, you're almost justtreating the security questions.
Like there are other random passwords.
Um, you know, you can put automatednotifications for your bank accounts.
You can freeze credit if you want to.
There's things like that.
So it's like, I think for me to, to,to kind of like maybe move this topic
(16:24):
towards con, you know, conclusionat least for now, is that, um.
I think that I don't know personally thatI'm actually really that worried about,
um, you know, DOGE leak leaking all mypersonal data, but the, the steps that
I would take to defend myself were thatto happen would be the same steps that I
(16:47):
would already use to defend myself fromthird party companies leaking my data.
Jordan Bravo (16:52):
Third party companies, government.
Agencies really anyone thatdoesn't need to have that data.
Stephen DeLorme (16:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Sovereign computing mindsetcan, you know, whether DOGE
is an angel or a demon to you.
The, the, the sovereign computingmindset can protect you either way.
Jordan Bravo (17:13):
All right.
Before we get into our main topic, I wantto remind everyone that you can boost
in with your sats and your messages.
Go to fountain.
fm and search for the ATL BitLab podcast.
That's going to be youreasiest way to send in a boost.
And you can, uh, use the fountainpodcasting app, or you can send it
(17:36):
from your other lightning enabled apps.
All right, what we're going to talkabout today is a great solution that
is going to really take a huge step inthe sovereign computing direction for
those of you who have not done so yet.
And we're going to talkabout self hosted files.
(17:58):
And what that, what that refers to isright now, most of us use either we have
Google drive or we have iCloud and allof our photos and videos and documents.
Are all synced to that automatically.
And it's just sort of become the defacto method of computing these days.
(18:18):
And what we're going to do today is talkabout how we can replace one of the,
these big tech solutions with one thatis completely under our own control.
And the primary.
And the third app that we'regoing to be using , to affect
that is called NextCloud.
And for those of you who haven'theard of NextCloud before, NextCloud
(18:38):
is a completely open source suite.
And you can host this on your own,or you can get a third party service
provider to host this for you.
And let's talk about hostingit on a third party first.
Nextcloud.
com And you might wonder, isn't thatjust as bad as having it on a third
party like Google or, um, Microsoft orApple or any of these other parties?
(19:05):
And a couple of reasons why thisis actually a better solution.
One is, The code, the apps itself,all the programs are open source and
they've had a lot more eyeballs on them.
A second one is that instead of being,if you have a third party provider,
most people will not have heard of it.
And instead of being a giant honeypotlike Google or iCloud is, which is.
(19:31):
They, whenever a hacker wants to breachsomething, they're going to go for
wherever they can get the most bangfor their buck, wherever they can
get the most data for their breach.
So if they breachGoogle, that's a jackpot.
They've got hundreds ofmillions or billions of users.
And so.
They, they're also well known anybodywho is a hacker, anybody who is
(19:52):
a cyber criminal trying to breachdata, they want to go for these big
targets, whereas some third partyprovider that you're hosting NextCloud
on, they don't even know it exists.
So that's one reason.
Another reason is you can actuallyhave them hosted on third party
providers that have zero access toyour data for technological reasons.
(20:14):
And we're going to talkabout one here in particular.
Um, I want to caveat it and saythat I've never used this myself,
but it does seem very intriguing.
And so if you are listening, we arelooking at a, a site called Enclave.
It's enclave.
io that's E N C L A I V. io.
(20:37):
And the reason that thisis interesting is it uses.
Some, um, fairly advanced technologyto host it in a way that makes it
impossible for the provider here,Enclave, to access your data.
Um, maybe Stephen, you could talk alittle bit more about that technology.
Stephen DeLorme (20:54):
Yeah, it's, I'm not going to pretend that I understand it
super deeply, though I hope to one day.
It's this kind of new paradigm calledconfidential computing, and it's, you
know, I guess the way to think aboutit is, you know, you know, if you're a
technical person, you might be familiarwith like concepts like the secure enclave
(21:16):
on the iPhone, it's supposed to be thislike area where you can store sensitive
secrets like passwords and key material.
And, uh, it's, you know, once it'sin the secure enclave, it's supposed
to be, um, you know, you know, very,very difficult to get it out of the
enclave without, you know, going throughlike an actually, you know, the user
(21:37):
entering their password and all that.
Right.
So I kind of think of confidentialcomputing as kind of like a
secure enclave, but for actuallyrunning compute processes.
Um, and, uh, so, excuse me.
So the confidential computing paradigm,the way I understand it is that.
(21:59):
There is actually this way that youcan generate a proof that like whatever
output you get, um, from the computerwas, you know, run on a specific
kind of hardware and knowing that thekind of hardware that it was run on,
you know, you can, you know, then.
(22:19):
Uh, you know, verify, you know,just by the nature of that hardware
that it, um, uh, you know, was, wasnot susceptible to eavesdropping.
Uh, if somebody knows a lot moreabout confidential computing, uh,
I would love it if you boost in andlike school school us on it because
I probably sound like an idiot if youactually know what you're talking about.
But.
The two kind of confidential computeenvironments I understand right now
(22:43):
are Intel SGX and then, uh, Amazonhas one called AWS Nitro Enclave.
Uh, so if you spin up cloud containerswith like AWS EC2, you can choose Nitro
Enclave as an option, um, and that'sa confidential compute environment.
And I think actually ACINQ, the, thecompany that does a lot of, they do a
lot of, if you're in the Bitcoin space,you might know them because they, uh,
(23:06):
run the Phoenix wallet and all that.
Yeah.
Um, they have a really large lightningnode called, just called ACINQ.
It's on the lightning network.
And I think that's actuallyrun on a Nitro enclave.
That's what I've heard at least.
Um, but yeah, so this company isrunning, uh, NextCloud instances
in, uh, confidential computeenvironments, which is super cool.
And if you go to their website, Imean, they have all kinds of stuff.
(23:27):
They have like, ConfidentialAI and all kinds of stuff.
So I don't know, it's worth looking into,but that's a whole other rabbit hole.
Jordan Bravo (23:35):
Does Enclave's website say where they're located?
Stephen DeLorme (23:39):
Uh, they have a GMBH in their name.
So I think they're German.
Jordan Bravo (23:43):
Okay.
Stephen DeLorme (23:44):
Um, that would be my guess.
Jordan Bravo (23:47):
Yeah, that sounds right.
Stephen DeLorme (23:49):
Yeah.
Former executives of Germany'stop five cyber companies.
We're just looking at their about page.
Yeah.
Jordan Bravo (23:55):
It sounds like they're German.
Stephen DeLorme (23:57):
I mean, this might be a good like kind of point to like
highlight the kind of cultural difference.
I've heard that so many different.
Like either government organizations inGermany are so companies in Germany use
NextCloud, which is wild to think about.
Cause like Google drive and Google forbusiness just seems like the default for
(24:18):
any small company in America, but there's,I think just, I don't know if it's just
a legal thing in the European union orif it's also a cultural thing, but I
think there is a different expectationaround, Data privacy in Europe, um,
and if you're in Europe, again, boostin and let us know, is this all legal
(24:41):
stuff or are we correct on that?
Is there a better, uh,expectation around data privacy?
And if so, is that mostly a legalthing or is it also just a general
cultural norm around, um, data privacy?
Um, but yeah, I've just heardthe NextCloud has like a lot
of like usage over there.
(25:02):
Um,
Jordan Bravo (25:02):
Yeah.
NextCloud itself, the company,I think they're also a GMBH.
So they are based out of Germany.
And so they have a lot of theirclientele is in Germany, German
corporations, German governments,uh, education, that kind of thing.
Whereas in the U S it would beeither Microsoft or Google typically.
(25:24):
And I think it was in 2022 when itwas a fairly big announcement that A
large portion of the German governmentwas switching from Microsoft Office
365 kind of deal over to NextCloudsort of self hosted or, you know,
on prem kind of, uh, solutions.
(25:44):
So, uh,
go ahead.
Stephen DeLorme (25:47):
Uh, well, I was actually going to wonder, uh, it sounded
like you had somewhere you wanted togo next, but I was wondering since.
We're getting into a littlebit into the weeds with the
Nextcloud hosting and all of that.
But I was wondering, should wedig into a little bit of their
like photo product or any of thelike file sharing stuff they do?
Jordan Bravo (26:02):
Yeah, I think I should talk about what it, what Nextcloud is maybe
before we get into the details of it.
So Nextcloud is a suite of softwareand it can completely replace things
like Google Drive, Google Docs,Microsoft OneDrive, Office 365.
(26:22):
Um, so the typical functionality thatall of us would consider part and parcel
of having a smartphone and a cloudaccount, you can completely replace it
with something that is self sovereign,privacy respecting, that you control.
So, uh, the biggest things that I use,for example, in my day to day life
(26:44):
I, I use the photo and file syncingso that if I take a photo on my
smartphone, it automatically uploadsit to my personal NextCloud server.
And my family and I can sharethat the same way you could share,
let's say, Google Drive files.
I also save my documents to that.
(27:05):
Um, and then NextCloud also doesmy contacts and my calendars.
And so we talked about this in the episodefocusing on contacts and calendars, but
NextCloud out of the box gives you asyncing for your contacts and calendars.
And then when you log, so you canuse the clients on your phone.
(27:25):
There's the NextCloud client forphoto syncing, for file syncing.
There's also your, your nativeCalendar and contacts apps will sync
to Nextcloud, but then you can alsovisit your Nextcloud server in the
browser and there's an entire frontend and all the apps have a front end
suite that you can use in the browser.
(27:47):
You can also use, it has something calledOnlyOffice, which is like a free and
open source version of Microsoft Office.
365, which you access in your browser.
You can also access it inyour browser with NextCloud.
And, um, a quick aside, there's also adownloadable and installable version,
(28:08):
just like there is with Microsoft office.
Uh, so I wanted to mentionthat in case you're the kind
of person who likes to use it.
Edit it offline becauseI'm like that as well.
I think it's always got a snappierfeel and better response when you
have the app installed locally, ratherthan using it through the browser.
But I just wanted tomention that really quickly.
(28:30):
Um, so, so I wanted toshow this off a little bit.
And if you are watching thevideo, you could see that we are
browsing the NextCloud app store.
And in addition to the basicapps that I just talked about,
like contacts, calendars, files.
You can use, you can also downloadand install a host of other apps.
So if you have various productivityapps, you can install it into
(28:53):
NextCloud with a one, with one click.
Um, they have a forms, which is likea Google forms replacement, um, news.
Talk, which is like Google talkor maybe even a Slack type of
replacement deck, which I thinkis, uh, maybe a Kanban board.
Stephen DeLorme (29:10):
Yeah.
It looks like a Trello alternative.
Jordan Bravo (29:12):
Yep.
Stephen DeLorme (29:13):
I'd like to run that.
Jordan Bravo (29:14):
Um, you can use security features like two fact factor
authentication and NextCloud evenhas AI that runs on your NextCloud
server, not sending data back to anythird party, but it'll do things like.
Uh, you get AI file search andAI email completions and, um, I
(29:35):
think AI photo search as well.
Stephen DeLorme (29:39):
Are all these apps that we're looking at on the screen here,
because there's a lot of them, are all ofthese developed by NextCloud or are some
of these like third party like plugins?
Jordan Bravo (29:48):
A lot of these are community plugins, but they are all, uh, open source
and they are semi curated by NextCloud.
Stephen DeLorme (29:59):
Hmm.
Yeah, because I was looking and I waslike, wow, there's a lot of these things.
Jordan Bravo (30:05):
So how does one get started with NextCloud if they are interested?
Well, like we said, you can useone of these third party providers.
If you go to nextcloud.
com, they have a list of other providers.
One of them being that Enclave that werecently talked about that is a secure
and has, has a secure computing hardware,but there's a whole host of other
(30:27):
providers, however, For me, the holygrail is self hosting on your own server.
And the way you can do thisvery easily is with, uh, StartOS
running on a home server.
So for, we've talked about this before,but Start9 is a great solution for
self hosting for, uh, on easy mode.
(30:48):
They make a operating system that allowsyou to run a server without any command
line usage, without any Linux experience.
You can just.
Point and click in agraphical user interface.
And one of the things that youcan install, they have a list of
apps as well in their marketplace.
And one of them that youcan install is NextCloud.
Stephen DeLorme (31:10):
Does I wonder if Umbrel does it now too?
Cause I know like Umbrelis kind of like pivoting.
To like be, um, I don't know, like,uh, Hey, we're not just a lightning,
Jordan Bravo (31:21):
the app store.
Stephen DeLorme (31:22):
Yeah.
Jordan Bravo (31:23):
Yeah.
So, uh, Umbrel started out asbeing a Bitcoin and lightning
node and it looks like now theyhave a host of other apps as well.
I'm seeing NextCloud, Plex.
Stephen DeLorme (31:35):
I mean, they kind of pivoted to be a little bit more like
Start9 from Start9 from my perspective.
Um, they, they, I think when I,they first launched, I remember
them kind of marketing themselvesas like, become Bitcoin woo.
And then they kind of switched it tomore of like, all your apps, all in
one place, you know, sort of thing.
So there's a lot of overlap.
(31:57):
Um, I don't know, do you havelike a preference between the two?
Jordan Bravo (32:00):
Um, I like StartOS, uh, for a couple of reasons.
One, I think technically they have apretty hardcore security model where
they've They've taken, um, they startedout with Debian Linux and they've
really done a ton of work on theoperating system itself to secure it.
(32:20):
I think Umbrel from the last time Ichecked, I could be wrong and out of my
information be out of date here, but thelast time I checked Umbrel seemed more
kind of like a slap dash solution thatthey just kind of threw some apps and
scripts on top of a Linux distribution.
That's no shade to Umbrel.
I know a lot of peoplerun it and it works great.
(32:41):
But that's just the impression I got.
Uh, the other thing is, is simply acharacter, uh, enjoyment that I get
out of seeing all of the Start9 guyson podcasts, interviews, and meeting
them in person, they all seem to reallyhave the sovereign computing mindset.
And, um, I just think that.
(33:02):
Seems like they have a really goodmission that aligns well with the
kind of stuff we talk about here.
Stephen DeLorme (33:10):
Do you run it on Start9?
Or do you run Nextcloud on StartOS?
Or do you have like ahome home-rolled solution?
Jordan Bravo (33:16):
I have my own Linux server that I've built up on my own.
But I have run Start9 and StartOS.
To play around with it.
And I really enjoy it.
Um, it's just that for me, I'mvery, I'm a technical person.
I'm a software engineer.
I have a lot of Linux experience, soI was able to set this up on my own.
I did it partly for learning purposes,but also because I wanted it to be
(33:39):
configured in a very specific way.
Um, but I would say for those of you whohave no interest in Linux or the terminal
or any of that advanced stuff, I thinkone of these graphical installers like
Start9 or Umbrel is, is a great way to go.
Stephen DeLorme (33:56):
How, how hard is it to maintain?
Like, uh, just, I'm just curious.
I know for most people aren'tgoing to go to Linux and install
it from command line, but.
Do you find yourself needingto maintain stuff a lot on it?
Like,
Jordan Bravo (34:09):
Uh, no.
It was a lot of work upfront toget things rolling and then now
I hardly ever think about it.
Maybe once every six months or oncea year, I might, uh, check in on
it and run an update just to makesure I have all the latest software.
But then it just kind of quietly doesits job sitting there next to my router.
(34:34):
And I don't reallythink about it too much.
And I got to say the wifeapproval factor is two thumbs up.
We've been able to have transferall of our data, all of our docs,
our file, our photos, our videos.
And, um, it automaticallyuploads from each of our phones.
My wife is using iOS.
(34:55):
I'm using Android.
And we can also share things together.
So for example, we have ashared folder where, uh, I
might be taking photos online.
She's taking photos on hers.
They both upload to ourrespective accounts.
But then we can drag some, someof them into our shared folder
and say, Hey, these are the onesfrom little Johnny's birthday.
(35:16):
Check them out.
And then this is also great forsharing with the extended family.
So instead of sending a Googleor requiring my family to have
a Google account or somethinglike that, or an iCloud account.
I can just send them a link comesright back to my home server and
it's a gallery that I've curated forthem and they can click through and
download high res versions of allthe videos and photos that I send.
Stephen DeLorme (35:39):
Oh, that's cool.
I like that.
Jordan Bravo (35:41):
Yeah.
Um, on a similar topic, Imentioned before that they have
NextCloud version of Google forms.
Um, you can also do that.
These are great toolsto be really sovereign.
I'm still like.
You could send somebody a, a form for themto fill out, and that's all on your own.
Nextcloud, you could send them, um, let'ssee, what are, what are other things
(36:03):
that we tend to send people in our dailylives, our, our digital, productive lives?
Stephen DeLorme (36:11):
Polls, maybe?
Jordan Bravo (36:13):
Yeah.
Uh, Nextcloud has polls, I believe.
Stephen DeLorme (36:16):
What?
Jordan Bravo (36:16):
Yeah.
So we've got polls, we've got forms.
Stephen DeLorme (36:22):
He even has a podcast player.
Jordan Bravo (36:25):
Oh, wow.
I know there's also an app.
I'm not sure if it's thirdparty or if it's already
installed with the calendar app.
But it's basically like Calendly,if that's the way to say it.
Stephen DeLorme (36:36):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jordan Bravo (36:37):
Yeah, so it's like, it's like Calendly, but it's
on your own Nextcloud instance.
So you can have people, you send thema link, they click it, it opens up a
page that allows them to schedule a timewith you and puts time on your calendar.
Stephen DeLorme (36:49):
I like that.
I really like that.
Yeah, that's cool.
Jordan Bravo (36:55):
Uh, any, anything coming to mind, Stephen?
Stephen DeLorme (36:59):
I need to give NextCloud another shot.
That's all cool.
I just need to set aside some timeto actually give it another shot.
Jordan Bravo (37:07):
Um, I'm going to talk before we completely move
off the topic of self hosting.
I want to give a shout outto an app called image.
That's for those of you listening, it'sI M M I C H. And what this is, it's
a different app that you self host,but it's meant to be a replacement
(37:30):
for Google photos and videos.
And it's, It doesn't do standard files.
It doesn't have the full kind of officesuite nature of NextCloud, but it's
really focused on just being a greatuser experience for photos and videos.
It's got everything from abeautiful viewer to the kind of.
(37:50):
Extra features that you wouldexpect from Google photos and
iCloud, where they have AI search.
So you might type in, um, Paris trip,and it's going to show you all of the
photos from your trip to Paris or cat.
And it's got all of your cat, cat photos.
So it's using AI to do that search.
It's also got a feature.
Stephen DeLorme (38:11):
Sick dinosaur photos.
Sorry, I'm in the image demo right now.
Like looking at their pictures.
Jordan Bravo (38:16):
Yeah, we're looking at the image demo server.
It's also got the feature thatiCloud and I think Google Photos
has of It shows you memories.
So it'll say this time last year,and it gives you a cute little
slideshow, or it shows you a bunchof a slideshow, a bunch of photos
and videos from a particular event.
Stephen DeLorme (38:39):
Yeah, this does seem very nice.
I mean, it reminds me of what was thatGoogle used to have some application
that you could use to like upload photosto them or whatever a long time ago.
Jordan Bravo (38:52):
Before Google Photos?
Stephen DeLorme (38:54):
I think it might have become Google Photos.
But I'm trying to thinkwhat the name of it was.
I thought it began with aP or something like that.
PL something.
I don't know.
There was like, there was Flickrthat a lot of people used for photos.
And then there was some other servicewith a, you know, clever name with like
(39:14):
a vowel taken out or something like that.
I thought Google boughtthem or something like that.
Um.
It was, um, I don't know, thislike, this reminds me of it a lot.
Um, just the, the UX of that kind ofservice, uh, it feels familiar to me.
It looks very nice looking,looking through the interface.
I mean, you know, it bringsup all the photos, very big.
(39:38):
There's no, like, there's not a lot oflike negative space between the photos.
Jordan Bravo (39:43):
And it's supposed to have really good optimization for
loading so you don't wait a long time.
It's got nice resolution.
Stephen DeLorme (39:51):
It feels snappy.
I'm just like zipping througheverything with an arrow key.
Jordan Bravo (39:56):
It's also got a mobile app for iOS and Android that
are supposed to be pretty slick.
The reason I'm saying supposed to beis I've heard a lot of good things.
But I haven't actually installed it onmy server yet to try it out personally.
So I don't want to, uh, speakwithout experience there.
Stephen DeLorme (40:11):
Well, I like this timeline.
It shows you the dates on theright hand side of the screen.
We can go back to 2001.
Wow.
This person was at a hut in 2001.
Uh, anyways.
Jordan Bravo (40:25):
All right.
Before we close out the app focussegment, I want to give a. Honorable
mention to something called SyncThing.
And if you are interested in a solutionthat doesn't have a big tech, uh,
solution behind it for syncing and backingup your files, check out SyncThing.
(40:47):
This, the reason that I'm mentioningthis as an honorable mention is
because it's not actually going togive you the same experience of having
a server that's hosting your files.
What this does is you don't need a server.
You just have, let's say your laptop.
Your and your phone, maybe you havea desktop as well, but you just
put the client, the sync client oneach of those devices and it will
(41:09):
sync the files between them anytimethat they have internet access.
So you don't have a centralized server.
That's ho that keeps your files,but it does keep your files
in sync across your devices.
But the nice thing about thatis that no server is required.
Stephen DeLorme (41:24):
That is pretty cool.
It reminds me of how Obsidian Syncworks, which Obsidian might be a good
thing to discuss in a future episode.
But yeah, I mean, the basic gistof how that, yeah, it sounds
exactly like what you described.
Like, I can set it up on my laptopand my phone and I'll always have
the same files on each of those.
Just kind of nice.
(41:45):
It's actually, it's actually kind ofa clever way of thinking about it.
That it's like, if you alreadyhave all of these devices.
Then you can just, um, you know,instead of like paying for some
backup or whatever, uh, some kindof backup service, you can just
keep copies on all your devices.
So that works for some things, I think.
Jordan Bravo (42:07):
And it goes without saying, or maybe it doesn't go
without saying, but we try to use opensource solutions whenever possible.
Cause that gives us a littlemore assurance that no
funny business is happening.
Um, and SyncThing is fully open source.
Stephen DeLorme (42:26):
Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
Jordan Bravo (42:27):
Uh, I think that, that, that does it for our topic today.
If you want to boost in,you can do that at fountain.
fm and search for the ATL BitLab podcast.
We'd love to hear yourthoughts on today's topic.
And let us know if you are interestedin any other topics, or if you want
to know more about how to host selfhost your own NextCloud instance or
(42:52):
other kinds of solutions for gettingoff of these big tech services.
Stephen DeLorme (42:57):
Yep.
Boost in everybody.
Jordan Bravo (42:59):
All right.
Thanks a lot, everyone.
And we'll see you next time.
Stephen DeLorme (43:02):
Later.
Hey, thanks for listening.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you want to learn more aboutanything that we discussed, you can
look for links in the show notesthat should be in your podcast
player, or you can go to atlbitlab.
com slash podcast.
On a final note, if you foundthis information useful and you
want to help support us, you canalways send us a tip in Bitcoin.
(43:26):
Your support really helps us so that wecan keep bringing you content like this.
All right.
Catch you later.
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