July 22, 2025 • 36 mins
Jordan Bravo and Stephen DeLorme dive deep into Eric Hughes' groundbreaking 1993 Cypherpunk Manifesto, exploring how this foundational document predicted Bitcoin, anonymous transaction systems, and modern digital privacy tools. They discuss the historical context of cryptography being illegal, the evolution from military-controlled encryption to widespread adoption, and how today's privacy-focused services like Mullvad exemplify the manifesto's principles. The hosts examine why "cypherpunks write code" and how this philosophy continues to drive sovereign computing solutions today.
Show Notes: https://atlbitlab.com/podcast/cypherpunk-manifesto
00:00 Introduction and Bitcoin's Anonymous Transaction Systems
00:33 Welcome and ATL BitLab Sponsorship
01:54 New Dedicated Sovereign Computing Show Feed Announcement
03:23 Introduction to the Cypherpunk Manifesto
04:16 Reading Eric Hughes' Cypherpunk Manifesto (1993)
10:47 Analysis: Bitcoin as Anonymous Transaction System
2:04 Minimum Information Transactions (Mullvad, IVPN Examples)
13:11 Historical Context of Personal Computers and the Web
16:47 When Cryptography Was Illegal - Military Weapon Classification
20:51 Supreme Court Rules Encryption as Free Speech
22:21 Bitcoin White Paper as Cypherpunk Goals Implementation
24:28 Satoshi's Use of Decades of Cryptographic Research
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I would say that there's a lot
in here that has come to pass and
specifically if it wasn't obvious,
the anonymous transaction systems.
And he talks about how an
anonymous transaction system is
not a secret transaction system.
Some this very much describes
the way Bitcoin works, right?
(00:20):
Because bitcoin is a completely
transparent blockchain that is
open and available for anybody
to see, but it is also provides
anonymity when used in a certain way.
Welcome to the Sovereign Computing
Show, presented by ATL BitLab.
I'm Jordan Bravo, and this is a
podcast where we teach you how to
(00:41):
take back control of your devices.
Sovereign Computing means you own your
technology, not the other way around.
This episode is sponsored by ATL BitLab.
ATL BitLab is Atlanta's
freedom tech hacker space.
We have co working desks,
conference rooms, event space,
maker tools, and tons of coffee.
(01:03):
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Every Wednesday night is
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(01:24):
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Your creativity becomes amplified
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(01:44):
That's A T L B I T L A B dot com.
Alright, on to our show.
Welcome to the Sovereign Computing Show.
I'm Jordan Bravo and I'm recording
here today in a TL Bitlab in the
Heart of Atlanta with Steven Delo.
What's up?
(02:05):
we want to announce to everybody
that we have a new show feed.
Previously we had the Sovereign Computing
Show under the A TL Bitlab Podcast feed.
But we are excited to announce
that the Sovereign Computing Show
now has its own dedicated feed.
So you can find the Sovereign Computing
(02:25):
Show in any podcast player, Spotify,
apple, et cetera, everywhere else, you
just search for sovereign computing
and it will be the first result.
It will have the image or the icon
will look like a microchip and, um.
Yeah, you should be able to find it.
Now.
You can also find that on
Fountain fm. That's Fountain fm.
(02:47):
You can boost into that show.
So we hope that you will use the
new feed and that you will find
it easier to find to search for.
However, if you would like to have all
of the A TL Bitlab podcast episodes.
That includes the Sovereign Computing
Show as well as two other feeds, which
(03:07):
contain live events that are recorded
here at A TL Bitlab as well as the
Behind the Build Show, which features
Steven De Alarm interviewing software
developers on what they're building
in the Bitcoin and related space.
Anything you wanted to add on that?
Nope, I think they pretty much covered it.
Okay.
(03:28):
Today we are going to talk
about the Cipher Punk Manifesto.
And for those of you who have not
heard of or read the Cipher Punk
Manifesto, or maybe you're just
rusty on it, this is an incredibly
important piece of, digital literature.
This was created by Eric
Hughes back in 1993.
(03:53):
Three, thank you.
Back in 1993, and.
Since this is an audio show,
primarily we wanna make sure that
people listening are not given,
uh, second class treatment here.
This is not one of those YouTube
shows where you have to be watching.
I'm gonna read it out loud for you,
and so please sit back and enjoy the
(04:13):
Cipher Punk Manifesto by Eric Hughes.
Accuses privacy is necessary for an
open society in the electronic age.
Privacy is not secrecy.
A private matter is something one
doesn't want the whole world to know,
but a secret matter is something
one doesn't want anybody to know.
(04:34):
Privacy is the power to selectively
reveal oneself to the world.
If two parties have some sort
of dealings, then each has a
memory of their interaction.
Each party can speak about
their own memory of this.
How could anyone prevent it?
One could pass laws against it.
But the freedom of speech,
even more than privacy, is
(04:55):
fundamental to an open society.
We seek not to restrict any
speech at all if many parties
speak together in the same forum.
Each can speak to all the others and
aggregate together to together knowledge
about individuals and other parties.
The power of electronic communications
has enabled such group speech
(05:16):
and it will not go away merely
because we want, might want it to.
Since we desire privacy, we must
ensure that each party to a transaction
have knowledge only of that which is
directly necessary for that transaction.
Since any information can be spoken
of, we must ensure that we reveal
as little as possible in most cases.
(05:37):
Personal identity is not salient.
When I purchase a magazine at a
store and hand cash to the clerk,
there is no need to know who I am.
When I ask my electronic mail provider
to send and receive messages, my
provider need not know who I am
speaking or what am I, what I am
saying, or what others are saying to me.
(05:58):
My provider only need know how to get the
message there and how much I owe them in
fees when my identity is revealed by the
underlying mechanism of the transaction.
I have no privacy.
I cannot hear selectively reveal myself.
I must always reveal myself.
Therefore, privacy in an open society
requires anonymous transaction systems.
(06:21):
Until now, cash has been
the primary such system.
An anonymous transaction system is
not a secret transaction system.
An anonymous tran, an anonymous
system empowers individuals
to reveal their identity when
desired and only when desired.
This is the essence of privacy.
Privacy in an open society
(06:41):
also requires cryptography.
If I say something, I want it heard
only by those for whom I intended.
If the content of my speech is available
to the world, I have no privacy.
To encrypt is to indicate the desire
for privacy and to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate
not too much desire for privacy.
(07:03):
Furthermore, to reveal one's identity with
assurance when the default is anonymity
requires the cryptographic signature.
We cannot expect governments,
corporations, or other large faceless
organizations to grant us privacy
out of their bene beneficence.
It is to their advantage to speak of
us, and we should expect that they
(07:24):
will speak to, to try to prevent
their speech is to fight against
the realities of information.
Information does not just want to be free.
It longs to be free Information expands
to fill the available storage space.
Information is rumors.
Younger, stronger cousin.
(07:45):
Information is fleeter afoot,
has more eyes, knows more, and
understands less than rumor.
We must defend our own privacy.
If we expect to have any.
We must come together and create
systems which allow anonymous
transactions to take place.
People have been defending their own
privacy for centuries with whispers,
(08:06):
darkness, envelopes, closed doors,
secret handshakes, and couriers.
The technologies of the past did
not allow for strong privacy,
but electronic technologies do.
We, the Cipher Punks are dedicated
to building anonymous systems.
We are defending our
privacy with cryptography.
With anonymous mail forwarding systems,
(08:29):
with digital signatures and with
electronic money, cipher Punks write code.
We know that someone has to write
software to defend privacy, and
since we can't get privacy unless
we all do, we're going to write it.
We publish our code so that
our fellow Cipher Punks may
practice and play with it.
Our code is free for all to use worldwide.
(08:51):
We don't much care if you don't
approve of the software we write.
We know that software can't
be destroyed and that a widely
dispersed system can't be shut down.
Cipher punk's.
Delore regulations on cryptography for
encryption is fundamentally a private act.
The act of encryption, in fact,
removes information from the public
(09:12):
realm, even laws against cryptography,
reach only so far as a nation's
border and the arm of its violence.
Cryptography will eclu.
Ably in Ineluctably.
Ineluctably.
Thank you.
I don't know.
Spread over the whole globe and
with it the an anonymous transaction
systems that make it possible
(09:35):
for privacy to be widespread.
It must be part of a social contract.
People must come and together deploy
these systems for the common good.
Privacy only extends so far as the
cooperation of one's fellows in society.
We the Cipher Punks, seek your questions
and your concerns and hope we may engage
you so that we do not deceive ourselves.
(09:58):
We will not, however, be moved
out of our course because some
may disagree with our goals.
The Cipher Punks are actively engaged in
making the net networks safer for privacy.
Let us proceed together a pace onward.
Eric Hughes, ninth March, 1993.
(10:19):
You didn't read his
emailHughes@soda.berkeley.edu.
Ah, yes.
I wonder if that email still works.
I don't know.
We should try.
Yeah, maybe we should
email him and ask him.
So this manifesto under underpins a
lot of what we, the descendants of the
(10:40):
first generation of Cipher Punks hold
dear and, and have as our world goals.
I would say that, there's a lot
in here that has come to pass and
specifically if, if it wasn't obvious,
the anonymous transaction systems.
And, he talks about how an
(11:01):
anonymous transaction system is
not a secret transaction system.
Some this very much describes
the way Bitcoin works, right?
Because bitcoin is a completely
transparent blockchain that is
open and available for anybody
to see, but it is also provides
anonymity when used in a certain way.
And it allows people to selectively
(11:23):
reveal themselves, right?
Because I can reveal that my transaction
is that my identity is associated with a
given transaction, but if I choose not to
do that, then I can transact anonymously.
The other thing he talks about is you
only, we should only give the necessary
information, reveal the necessary
(11:44):
information for any transaction.
So for example, when he talks about.
Purchasing a magazine at a store
and handing cash to the clerk.
There's no need to know who I am.
So, similarly, you might have heard
in previous episodes we talk about
when you transact online, you wanna
be doing it with giving the minimum
amount of information possible.
(12:04):
some privacy respecting service
providers will have this outta
the gate, outta the box, requiring
you to do no additional work.
Something that comes to mind is a.
Moad, the VPN provider or IVPN, the
VPN provider, where they give you,
when you sign up for their service,
they give you just an account
(12:25):
number, which is a character string,
and you don't need anything else.
You don't have to give them an email,
you don't have to give them, any
kind of identifying information.
So that's the minimum amount of
information required for a transaction.
And then, and if you're using,
in that case, if you're using.
Bitcoin to transact.
Again, you are not giving them
a credit card information,
(12:46):
identity, any of that stuff.
So that's a perfect example of
how of an ideal transaction that
takes place digitally, right?
One side is providing a digital service,
and the other is providing a digital
currency in exchange for that service.
And no other superfluous
information has to change hands.
(13:07):
Okay.
Okay.
Any thoughts so far on this, Steven?
Yeah.
So I think it's worth, taking a step
back from this paper for a minute and
giving a little context to, people who've
maybe never heard of this stuff before.
Like, you know, your reaction to
this paper will, you know, vary
depending on, you know, how you
(13:28):
feel about, Privacy and all that.
I think, you know, for, for some
people it, it, it, you know, sounds
a little, I don't know, suspicious,
maybe like a, a little like, uh, p
that's not the word I'm looking for.
I think to some people this might
come across as paranoid, if you're not
familiar with this line of thinking,
but I think we have to put ourselves
into like the, the head space of, of.
(13:50):
The author and kind of like the,
you know, the, the people he
associated with and also the time
period that this took place in.
So this is in the early nineties and,
you know, we're, we're kind of at this
point in human history where the personal
computer is still relatively new.
especially personal computers with
like desktop operating systems.
(14:12):
And the web itself, like the ability
to go to like a website, like http,
www.whatever.com, that, that way of using
the, the internet that's relatively new.
It's only existed for about
two years at this point.
So this is like very,
very, new technology.
And this is kind of like this
new way of thinking that like, oh
(14:33):
wow, in the future, every single.
Government in the world is going
to have computers and every single
company is going to have computers
and how, and they're going to
collect information on everybody.
Like they're thinking ahead, like,
that's the Cipher Punks basically.
Uh, they're, you know, this group
of people, they're thinking ahead to
the future when, every organization
(14:55):
has computers and, and they're
collecting lots of information.
And they're saying the idea that an
individual can also have a computer
now, a personal computer, and they can
kind of use that as a tool to defend
themselves from these organizations.
And you know, it, it, it sounds
paranoid when you, you know, at,
(15:15):
at first glance, but then when you
actually think about it, they were
actually pretty correct about the.
Way that the world works.
you know, obviously we, you know,
there's tons of government data
collection, but there's also tons
of corporate data collection.
and especially when you think about
like, you know, just as an example,
when you get into like elections
(15:36):
and the US and there's always, you
know, debates about like, well, is.
You know, is Twitter only, you know,
banning people on the right or does
Google have a political bias or like,
did you actually want to buy that?
Or have you been kind of like, has,
you know, Facebook targeted ads been
(15:56):
like working you for six months?
Well, the only reason we can
even have, you know, debates like
these, or the, the only reason we
are having debates like these is.
Because it is true that these
organizations have tons of data about us.
So, you know, while it may have sounded
paranoid to people at the time, it
actually ended up, being correct.
and, so you, you know, that,
(16:18):
you know this, you know, kind of
group, loosely organized group
of people on the internet here.
Um, you know, Eric is calling them
the, the Cipher Punks in these
paper, and he is kind of outlining.
The, philosophy of, of this group
and, uh, what motivates them and what
they plan to do about this problem.
(16:39):
Yeah, thanks for that context.
Sometimes I forget, people may not
even have heard the word cipher punk
before, so I, I have another little
historical thing I meant to go into.
Yeah, please.
But like, another thing, this, this seems
kind of weird 'cause you know, he talks
about cryptography a lot in the paper, and
one thing that we all forget about is that
cryptography was at one point illegal.
Um, it was a sort of, it was a
(17:00):
government, you know, it, it was seen
as like being like a, a government tool.
and, and this seems weird, you know,
if you've, you know, grown up with
smartphones because, it's like,
well, obviously it has encryption.
you know, there was like a
little padlock that, appears
in the corner of the browser.
Um, when you go to a website,
actually I take that back.
There isn't there used to be, but a lot
(17:21):
of browsers no longer even surface that
because it's just expected that all web
communications are encrypted, right?
Like it used to be that having a
web, an encrypted connection to
a website was a special thing.
Now it's seen as a default and
being unencrypted is they, they let
you know when it's not encrypted.
you know, everyone kind of
expects that their Apple messages
(17:42):
are encrypted to some degree.
You always hear these news articles
about the FBI, you know, having to
work really hard to try and hack
iPhones to get people's iMessage
and all that kind of stuff.
Obviously, we've talked about,
as we've talked about before,
you can't fully trust iMessage.
But the point is, is that the modern
day, we have this expectation to some
degree of a certain level of encryption.
(18:03):
This wasn't always the case.
That's because when you look back
in the history of cryptography, I'm
gonna paraphrase here a little bit.
A lot of what we know about cryptography,
like kind of began, you know, at least
with computer cryptography began during
World War ii, began during the forties.
You know, the, the Nazis had this
tool, the, the Enigma Machine,
this, you know, like mechanical
device that was used to try and.
(18:24):
you know, come up with, you know,
like I, I guess you, I don't know
if you'd call it like a rudimentary
encryption key, but you know, a way
for, you know, for their military to,
uh, be able to, uh, encrypt messages.
And so the allied forces, you know,
have a bletchley park and they have the.
The, you know, this is where Alan
Turing worked and there was this, you
know, um, movement to try and build,
(18:46):
you know, war, really early computers.
It's like, how can we use technology
to break the enemy's technology, right?
And so after World War ii, you
know, cryptography and these early
computers were, you know, made for,
encrypting things and, and trying
to break other people's encryption.
And so this was seen
as military technology.
(19:07):
And so you enter this era of the
personal computer, like late eighties,
early nineties, and suddenly you
have people trying to, and these
are the Cipher Punks, punks.
They're trying to, write
encryption software that can
run on a personal computer.
And this was very, very controversial
at the time because, you know, there
was actually, you know, you know,
(19:29):
accounts you'll hear on the net of like.
Uh, you know, people holding a
cryptography conference and like,
you know, you know, thinking, well,
that guy in the corner is like a
plant from the NSA or something.
And this, again, this sounds a
little paranoid, but you have
to put it in historical context.
At this point in time, these things
were seen as military weapons.
(19:49):
It's like this whole, you know, kind
of, you know, part of the cipher punk
mythology that it's like, well, the, the,
the encryption software was illegal and.
Um, if you were to, you, you know,
share a floppy disc with this
encryption software, you know, you
were transporting, uh, munition.
in legal terms.
And so that's where, you know, people
(20:10):
were trying to kind of, you know, come up
with these resistance things like, well,
if I tattoo the encryption algorithm on
my body, does my body become illegal?
you know, if I put it in a book or a
t-shirt that, you know, might be like,
subject to some kind of free trade,
you know, rule or something like that.
Does it?
you know, is it no longer a munition?
And, you know, it, it, and nowadays
(20:31):
all of this, you know, seems like,
well, obviously encryption, you
know, people should have encryption.
But, you know, if it wasn't for this,
this, movement, the, of, you know,
digital activists called the Cipher
Punk, it, it might be that, you know,
this stuff would, this knowledge
would, you know, still be, walked
away hidden from all, all of us today.
(20:51):
Thanks for the historical context.
And one more thing is the, it
culminated, I would, you could say in
a landmark case in the nineties where
the Supreme Court of the United States
ruled that encryption and software
is actually treated like speech.
(21:14):
And so that they, could not forbid
it under that classification.
And so, uh, I think that's sort of
the start of when encryption started
becoming available to everybody.
You know, previously,
like you said, it was.
Highly controlled, and it was
(21:34):
a military and government tool
and weapon you could even say.
And now suddenly this powerful
technology is available to anybody
that has a personal computer.
And he kind of predicts
this in the paper too.
I says, we don't much care if you
don't approve of the software we write.
(21:56):
We know that software can't
be destroyed and that a widely
dispersed system can't be shut down.
Yeah, exactly.
And jumping forward to 2008 when
Satoshi released Satoshi Nakamoto
released the Bitcoin White paper,
that is so jumping from 1993 when this
(22:17):
was written to 2008, you could see.
The Bitcoin white paper was putting
into practice many of these same cipher
punk goals that are listed right here.
Um, what is it, 10, 15 years prior?
Yeah.
It took, I guess about, uh, eight,
(22:39):
yeah, like 15 years for, them to
finally, uh, invent electronic money.
And something that for, for people who
are Bitcoin geeks out there and have
studied this history a little bit,
you'll know that even though Satoshi
released the Bitcoin White paper in
2008 and the first, Bitcoin software in
(22:59):
2009, it did not come out of nowhere.
It was built on all of this privacy and
encryption technology that had been.
worked on for decades, right?
So you had the, the first public
private key cryptography came out
in the 1970s with the RSA algorithm.
(23:22):
so that, that was absolutely
essential for Bitcoin to be invented.
It wouldn't work without
that kind of cryptography.
And then, um, you had hashing algorithms
that was over the next several decades
in the seventies, eighties, nineties.
And, proof of work as well, which
was, which was invented in the
(23:42):
nineties as well for, basically
an anti-spam prevention Hash cash.
Yeah.
Hash cash by Adam back.
And so you had, it, it was really a
culmination of decades of cumulative
research by all of these cipher
punks and cryptographers and, and.
(24:02):
By bringing these things to
the open source world where
anybody could work on it.
You had some, you had the possibility
for an anonymous person like Satoshi
Nakamoto to use all of these available
tools and to put them together in a
unique way and invent something that
nobody had been able to invent up until
that point, which was digital money.
(24:28):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it's like Satoshi, you know,
nobody knows who Satoshi is, and it
doesn't really matter at this point if
you ask me, but it's like, it, it seems
like Satoshi was, and, and, you know, must
have been inspired by these conversations.
Like, you know, maybe Satoshi
(24:48):
was somebody who was on the,
the cipher punk mailing list.
and, and that's, , another kind of
point is like this, this manifesto,
I think was originally shared
on the Cipher Punk mailing list.
And so there was a, a lot of conversation
and, uh, about this kind of stuff and,
you know, that's, that's where a lot
of these, people would hang out on.
I'd like to fast forward to today
(25:10):
and talk about the echoes or the, um.
The mark that this
manifesto has left on us.
And, you and I, I would say are
kind of, we're, we're a similar age.
We're certainly younger than Eric Hughes
and probably younger than Satoshi,
although we can't know for sure.
(25:30):
But, just based on when you
and I ha have, uh, started our
careers and got into software, we.
Uh, I think it might be accurate
to say we're sort of second
generation cipher punks are sort of
following in their footsteps mm-hmm.
As we continue to push forward both
(25:50):
Bitcoin building on top of Bitcoin
and all of the sovereign computing
software that we, use and spread and
work on and promote, and it's, it's.
All in the name of a similar ethos that
is described here, which is, privacy as
a, as a right, the ability to selectively
(26:14):
reveal oneself to the world and, the use
of encryption technologies for everybody.
Yeah.
Well, I hope I'm a second
generation cipher punk.
Maybe, maybe not.
You're right.
We're certainly second
generation from them.
I bet that that brings up a,
an interesting point, which
is, uh, famous line here.
Cipher Punk's write code,
(26:35):
and, I definitely write code.
I'm, you know, I always identify primarily
as a designer, but I've definitely
written a ton of, front end code and,
you know, some, some backend, the
smattering of backend code here and there.
And I think, this
definition is interesting.
I'm trying to think if I've ever
like directly worked on a, like,
I guess I have written code that
(26:57):
has gone, I mean, I've definitely
written code that real users use.
So, but it's interesting when you, you
think about it because, they're very
strict about that kind of definition.
I think.
and some, some people interpret this
line a little bit more broadly these
days of like, oh, well it's just someone
who just like, generally likes and, you
know, cryptography and privacy and stuff.
You can call yourself a cipher punk.
(27:18):
Some people are a little more
strict about that definition.
They'll say, no, you're not a
cipher punk unless you write code.
I think it's interesting because
I think there's a little bit of
wisdom in, in, in the stricter, uh,
definition because the, the way I
(27:40):
interpret a lot of the like cipher
punk philosophy is like this, it's like
you can have your opinions about what.
You think a government
or a company should do?
And that's fine.
You're welcome to have your opinions,
but at the end of the day, it kind
of doesn't matter what you feel about
what they should do because they're
(28:01):
gonna do whatever they're able to do.
Right.
I think he, he kind of says something
to that effect at another point in here.
Like, you know, one line
is like, uh, you know.
it is their advantage to speak of us and
we should expect that they will speak to
try to prevent their speech is to fight
against the realities of information.
So, it's, it's like the, the kind of
philosophy is that like this kind of
(28:22):
negative state of the world where, third
parties will try to collect information on
you and we'll try to use that against you.
it's not something that your thoughts
and feelings will really change.
And so the, the conclusion I think that
they've come to, is that the only way
to, you know, the, the only path forward
from that is to actively defend yourself
(28:44):
to like digitally defend yourself.
and the way that you like digitally
defend yourself is using cryptography.
It is.
encrypted, uh, it is,
encrypting your messages.
it is, verifying your identity to,
you know, being anonymous where
possible, verifying your identity,
uh, via the use of digital signatures.
it is using anonymous, anonymous,
(29:05):
electronic, cache systems.
It's, it's all of these different things.
These are like ways that you actively
fight to claim your privacy and you
actively work to conceal yourself.
and so that's why I think the, the,
the Cipher Punk's right code line is
that it's like, you know, it's like
that being Cipher punk, I think in
(29:25):
their eyes is more than just like
a, a, ooh, I'm interested in this,
or I feel this way about something.
It's like I'm actively doing something
and I'm actively, kind of, asserting
my will, uh, via the code that I write.
Totally.
And if you wanna take a stricter
definition of the Cipher Punks,
you know, maybe it was only these
(29:47):
particular guys that wrote that kind
of software, and maybe those who do.
So today, you could say we
here are following in the
footsteps of the Cipher Punks.
We are championing that ethos
and, benefiting from the
work that they've done, but.
In any case, I think, I think
(30:09):
we can say that we want to,
to push forward this idea.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I wanted to repeat a line
that you had referenced.
We cannot expect governments,
corporations, or other large
faceless organizations to grant us
privacy out of their beneficence.
And I just wanna repeat, I wanna focus
(30:31):
on that because it's, it's worth.
Concentrating on the fact that if we just
sit back and don't care about our privacy,
corporations, governments, and other
organizations, they are not, it, it's
not in their best interests to care about
our privacy and, and to grant us privacy
and to act in our best interest that way.
(30:53):
So they're not going to the
only people who will are us.
So if we don't do it, no one will.
Yep.
And I think that's important to remember
when people sometimes ask, you know, why
bother going through all of this trouble?
Why do you do a weekly podcast on this?
Why do you go through the extra
(31:15):
steps required to make your
devices more private, et cetera?
And that's part of the reason because
nobody else is gonna do it for us.
Yeah.
Another part I wanna focus on is where.
He says that I'm looking for the spot
now, so apologies for the the pause, but
(31:40):
I'm looking for the part where he talks
about how it's not bound by a nation's.
Ah, here it is.
Even laws against cryptography
reach only so far as a nation's
border in the arm of its violence.
Cryptography will enact.
I still don't know what this word means.
I've gotta look that up.
Electively spread over
(32:00):
the whole globe, guys.
Dude's got a vocabulary not
to be avoided or escaped.
Inevitable.
Okay?
So it's cryptography will inevitably
spread over the whole globe is
what he is saying in electable.
In electable.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
So what he's saying here is governments
(32:21):
can make laws and regulations on
cryptography, but because cryptography
is information, it's not gonna be
bound by any nation state borders.
I mean,
countries will try, governments will try
to enforce it, but ultimately it's really
(32:43):
difficult even with the power of the most.
Powerful nation states in the world,
it's almost impossible for them to
enforce, these regulations and laws
on cryptography because how do you
put down a wall for something digital?
Right?
How do you prevent something from
leaking out across the internet?
(33:04):
Well, you might say China does, tries to
do just that, but we know that their great
firewall of China is not airtight, right?
Things leak in and out all the time.
so they, this is, and China of course,
has a very totalitarian approach.
We here in the west don't have that.
Okay.
We had a recording equipment failure
(33:27):
and we lost the last 10 minutes or so
of the discussion, but we are going to
continue on now with the boost segment.
we got a boost from Gavin Green for 100
SATs, and Gavin says It does indeed.
It does indeed.
Gavin was referring to a previous
(33:48):
boost by me, Jordan Bravo, and I was
sending in a test boost just to see
if it was properly displaying my name
when I hooked up my nasta profile.
And for those of you who don't
know, you can in Fountain
connect it to your Nasra profile.
You just paste in your end pub and it
will show your, your name and your avatar.
(34:09):
If, for those of you who want to link
the two up, if you want to boost in,
you can do so with Fountain fm. You can
do that on iOS or Android, or you can
do it through the Fountain FM website.
You can also.
Email us sovereign@atlbitlab.com.
And Steven, did you have
anything you wanted to add?
(34:30):
Yeah, and if you have issues boosting,
because sometimes with Fountain and
other podcasting 2.0 apps, you need
to use a special kind of lightning
wallet that not everybody has and
it can be a little frustrating.
So if you just want like some regular
Bitcoin payments, and you wanna support
the show, you can go to atl bitlab.com.
And click on the podcast, uh, link.
And the header nav bar, it's
(34:52):
just slash podcast is the URL.
you.
There is a send us a tip button,
underneath the podcast description.
Also, if you click on any
episode, there's a big, orange.
Send us a tip button.
Those buttons just go
to our BDC pay server.
It accepts regular old
Bitcoin over lightning.
Nothing fancy.
On chain Bitcoin, that might
be a little bit easier for
you than the Fountain Boost.
(35:13):
Um, so yeah, if you do want to, support
the show sends a tip, you can always
go there if that's easier for you.
Yep.
And that's atl bitlab.com/podcast.
Alright, thanks everybody.
We'll see you next time later.
Hey, thanks for listening.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you want to learn more about
anything that we discussed, you can
(35:34):
look for links in the show notes
that should be in your podcast
player, or you can go to atlbitlab.
com slash podcast.
On a final note, if you found
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Your support really helps us so that we
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All right.
(35:54):
Catch you later.
I would say that there's a lot
in here that has come to pass and
specifically if it wasn't obvious,
the anonymous transaction systems.
And he talks about how an
anonymous transaction system is
not a secret transaction system.
Some this very much describes
the way Bitcoin works, right?
(00:20):
Because bitcoin is a completely
transparent blockchain that is
open and available for anybody
to see, but it is also provides
anonymity when used in a certain way.
Welcome to the Sovereign Computing
Show, presented by ATL BitLab.
I'm Jordan Bravo, and this is a
podcast where we teach you how to
(00:41):
take back control of your devices.
Sovereign Computing means you own your
technology, not the other way around.
This episode is sponsored by ATL BitLab.
ATL BitLab is Atlanta's
freedom tech hacker space.
We have co working desks,
conference rooms, event space,
maker tools, and tons of coffee.
(01:03):
There is a very active
community here in the lab.
Every Wednesday night is
Bitcoin night here in Atlanta.
We also have meetups for cyber security,
artificial intelligence, decentralized
identity, product design, and more.
We offer day passes and nomad passes
for people who need to use the lab only
occasionally, as well as memberships
for people who plan to use the lab
more regularly, such as myself.
(01:24):
One of the best things about
having a BitLab membership isn't
the amenities, it's the people.
Surrounding yourself with a
community helps you learn faster
and helps you build better.
Your creativity becomes amplified
when you work in this space,
that's what I think at least.
If you're interested in becoming
a member or supporting this space,
please visit us at atlbitlab.
com.
(01:44):
That's A T L B I T L A B dot com.
Alright, on to our show.
Welcome to the Sovereign Computing Show.
I'm Jordan Bravo and I'm recording
here today in a TL Bitlab in the
Heart of Atlanta with Steven Delo.
What's up?
(02:05):
we want to announce to everybody
that we have a new show feed.
Previously we had the Sovereign Computing
Show under the A TL Bitlab Podcast feed.
But we are excited to announce
that the Sovereign Computing Show
now has its own dedicated feed.
So you can find the Sovereign Computing
(02:25):
Show in any podcast player, Spotify,
apple, et cetera, everywhere else, you
just search for sovereign computing
and it will be the first result.
It will have the image or the icon
will look like a microchip and, um.
Yeah, you should be able to find it.
Now.
You can also find that on
Fountain fm. That's Fountain fm.
(02:47):
You can boost into that show.
So we hope that you will use the
new feed and that you will find
it easier to find to search for.
However, if you would like to have all
of the A TL Bitlab podcast episodes.
That includes the Sovereign Computing
Show as well as two other feeds, which
(03:07):
contain live events that are recorded
here at A TL Bitlab as well as the
Behind the Build Show, which features
Steven De Alarm interviewing software
developers on what they're building
in the Bitcoin and related space.
Anything you wanted to add on that?
Nope, I think they pretty much covered it.
Okay.
(03:28):
Today we are going to talk
about the Cipher Punk Manifesto.
And for those of you who have not
heard of or read the Cipher Punk
Manifesto, or maybe you're just
rusty on it, this is an incredibly
important piece of, digital literature.
This was created by Eric
Hughes back in 1993.
(03:53):
Three, thank you.
Back in 1993, and.
Since this is an audio show,
primarily we wanna make sure that
people listening are not given,
uh, second class treatment here.
This is not one of those YouTube
shows where you have to be watching.
I'm gonna read it out loud for you,
and so please sit back and enjoy the
(04:13):
Cipher Punk Manifesto by Eric Hughes.
Accuses privacy is necessary for an
open society in the electronic age.
Privacy is not secrecy.
A private matter is something one
doesn't want the whole world to know,
but a secret matter is something
one doesn't want anybody to know.
(04:34):
Privacy is the power to selectively
reveal oneself to the world.
If two parties have some sort
of dealings, then each has a
memory of their interaction.
Each party can speak about
their own memory of this.
How could anyone prevent it?
One could pass laws against it.
But the freedom of speech,
even more than privacy, is
(04:55):
fundamental to an open society.
We seek not to restrict any
speech at all if many parties
speak together in the same forum.
Each can speak to all the others and
aggregate together to together knowledge
about individuals and other parties.
The power of electronic communications
has enabled such group speech
(05:16):
and it will not go away merely
because we want, might want it to.
Since we desire privacy, we must
ensure that each party to a transaction
have knowledge only of that which is
directly necessary for that transaction.
Since any information can be spoken
of, we must ensure that we reveal
as little as possible in most cases.
(05:37):
Personal identity is not salient.
When I purchase a magazine at a
store and hand cash to the clerk,
there is no need to know who I am.
When I ask my electronic mail provider
to send and receive messages, my
provider need not know who I am
speaking or what am I, what I am
saying, or what others are saying to me.
(05:58):
My provider only need know how to get the
message there and how much I owe them in
fees when my identity is revealed by the
underlying mechanism of the transaction.
I have no privacy.
I cannot hear selectively reveal myself.
I must always reveal myself.
Therefore, privacy in an open society
requires anonymous transaction systems.
(06:21):
Until now, cash has been
the primary such system.
An anonymous transaction system is
not a secret transaction system.
An anonymous tran, an anonymous
system empowers individuals
to reveal their identity when
desired and only when desired.
This is the essence of privacy.
Privacy in an open society
(06:41):
also requires cryptography.
If I say something, I want it heard
only by those for whom I intended.
If the content of my speech is available
to the world, I have no privacy.
To encrypt is to indicate the desire
for privacy and to encrypt with
weak cryptography is to indicate
not too much desire for privacy.
(07:03):
Furthermore, to reveal one's identity with
assurance when the default is anonymity
requires the cryptographic signature.
We cannot expect governments,
corporations, or other large faceless
organizations to grant us privacy
out of their bene beneficence.
It is to their advantage to speak of
us, and we should expect that they
(07:24):
will speak to, to try to prevent
their speech is to fight against
the realities of information.
Information does not just want to be free.
It longs to be free Information expands
to fill the available storage space.
Information is rumors.
Younger, stronger cousin.
(07:45):
Information is fleeter afoot,
has more eyes, knows more, and
understands less than rumor.
We must defend our own privacy.
If we expect to have any.
We must come together and create
systems which allow anonymous
transactions to take place.
People have been defending their own
privacy for centuries with whispers,
(08:06):
darkness, envelopes, closed doors,
secret handshakes, and couriers.
The technologies of the past did
not allow for strong privacy,
but electronic technologies do.
We, the Cipher Punks are dedicated
to building anonymous systems.
We are defending our
privacy with cryptography.
With anonymous mail forwarding systems,
(08:29):
with digital signatures and with
electronic money, cipher Punks write code.
We know that someone has to write
software to defend privacy, and
since we can't get privacy unless
we all do, we're going to write it.
We publish our code so that
our fellow Cipher Punks may
practice and play with it.
Our code is free for all to use worldwide.
(08:51):
We don't much care if you don't
approve of the software we write.
We know that software can't
be destroyed and that a widely
dispersed system can't be shut down.
Cipher punk's.
Delore regulations on cryptography for
encryption is fundamentally a private act.
The act of encryption, in fact,
removes information from the public
(09:12):
realm, even laws against cryptography,
reach only so far as a nation's
border and the arm of its violence.
Cryptography will eclu.
Ably in Ineluctably.
Ineluctably.
Thank you.
I don't know.
Spread over the whole globe and
with it the an anonymous transaction
systems that make it possible
(09:35):
for privacy to be widespread.
It must be part of a social contract.
People must come and together deploy
these systems for the common good.
Privacy only extends so far as the
cooperation of one's fellows in society.
We the Cipher Punks, seek your questions
and your concerns and hope we may engage
you so that we do not deceive ourselves.
(09:58):
We will not, however, be moved
out of our course because some
may disagree with our goals.
The Cipher Punks are actively engaged in
making the net networks safer for privacy.
Let us proceed together a pace onward.
Eric Hughes, ninth March, 1993.
(10:19):
You didn't read his
emailHughes@soda.berkeley.edu.
Ah, yes.
I wonder if that email still works.
I don't know.
We should try.
Yeah, maybe we should
email him and ask him.
So this manifesto under underpins a
lot of what we, the descendants of the
(10:40):
first generation of Cipher Punks hold
dear and, and have as our world goals.
I would say that, there's a lot
in here that has come to pass and
specifically if, if it wasn't obvious,
the anonymous transaction systems.
And, he talks about how an
(11:01):
anonymous transaction system is
not a secret transaction system.
Some this very much describes
the way Bitcoin works, right?
Because bitcoin is a completely
transparent blockchain that is
open and available for anybody
to see, but it is also provides
anonymity when used in a certain way.
And it allows people to selectively
(11:23):
reveal themselves, right?
Because I can reveal that my transaction
is that my identity is associated with a
given transaction, but if I choose not to
do that, then I can transact anonymously.
The other thing he talks about is you
only, we should only give the necessary
information, reveal the necessary
(11:44):
information for any transaction.
So for example, when he talks about.
Purchasing a magazine at a store
and handing cash to the clerk.
There's no need to know who I am.
So, similarly, you might have heard
in previous episodes we talk about
when you transact online, you wanna
be doing it with giving the minimum
amount of information possible.
(12:04):
some privacy respecting service
providers will have this outta
the gate, outta the box, requiring
you to do no additional work.
Something that comes to mind is a.
Moad, the VPN provider or IVPN, the
VPN provider, where they give you,
when you sign up for their service,
they give you just an account
(12:25):
number, which is a character string,
and you don't need anything else.
You don't have to give them an email,
you don't have to give them, any
kind of identifying information.
So that's the minimum amount of
information required for a transaction.
And then, and if you're using,
in that case, if you're using.
Bitcoin to transact.
Again, you are not giving them
a credit card information,
(12:46):
identity, any of that stuff.
So that's a perfect example of
how of an ideal transaction that
takes place digitally, right?
One side is providing a digital service,
and the other is providing a digital
currency in exchange for that service.
And no other superfluous
information has to change hands.
(13:07):
Okay.
Okay.
Any thoughts so far on this, Steven?
Yeah.
So I think it's worth, taking a step
back from this paper for a minute and
giving a little context to, people who've
maybe never heard of this stuff before.
Like, you know, your reaction to
this paper will, you know, vary
depending on, you know, how you
(13:28):
feel about, Privacy and all that.
I think, you know, for, for some
people it, it, it, you know, sounds
a little, I don't know, suspicious,
maybe like a, a little like, uh, p
that's not the word I'm looking for.
I think to some people this might
come across as paranoid, if you're not
familiar with this line of thinking,
but I think we have to put ourselves
into like the, the head space of, of.
(13:50):
The author and kind of like the,
you know, the, the people he
associated with and also the time
period that this took place in.
So this is in the early nineties and,
you know, we're, we're kind of at this
point in human history where the personal
computer is still relatively new.
especially personal computers with
like desktop operating systems.
(14:12):
And the web itself, like the ability
to go to like a website, like http,
www.whatever.com, that, that way of using
the, the internet that's relatively new.
It's only existed for about
two years at this point.
So this is like very,
very, new technology.
And this is kind of like this
new way of thinking that like, oh
(14:33):
wow, in the future, every single.
Government in the world is going
to have computers and every single
company is going to have computers
and how, and they're going to
collect information on everybody.
Like they're thinking ahead, like,
that's the Cipher Punks basically.
Uh, they're, you know, this group
of people, they're thinking ahead to
the future when, every organization
(14:55):
has computers and, and they're
collecting lots of information.
And they're saying the idea that an
individual can also have a computer
now, a personal computer, and they can
kind of use that as a tool to defend
themselves from these organizations.
And you know, it, it, it sounds
paranoid when you, you know, at,
(15:15):
at first glance, but then when you
actually think about it, they were
actually pretty correct about the.
Way that the world works.
you know, obviously we, you know,
there's tons of government data
collection, but there's also tons
of corporate data collection.
and especially when you think about
like, you know, just as an example,
when you get into like elections
(15:36):
and the US and there's always, you
know, debates about like, well, is.
You know, is Twitter only, you know,
banning people on the right or does
Google have a political bias or like,
did you actually want to buy that?
Or have you been kind of like, has,
you know, Facebook targeted ads been
(15:56):
like working you for six months?
Well, the only reason we can
even have, you know, debates like
these, or the, the only reason we
are having debates like these is.
Because it is true that these
organizations have tons of data about us.
So, you know, while it may have sounded
paranoid to people at the time, it
actually ended up, being correct.
and, so you, you know, that,
(16:18):
you know this, you know, kind of
group, loosely organized group
of people on the internet here.
Um, you know, Eric is calling them
the, the Cipher Punks in these
paper, and he is kind of outlining.
The, philosophy of, of this group
and, uh, what motivates them and what
they plan to do about this problem.
(16:39):
Yeah, thanks for that context.
Sometimes I forget, people may not
even have heard the word cipher punk
before, so I, I have another little
historical thing I meant to go into.
Yeah, please.
But like, another thing, this, this seems
kind of weird 'cause you know, he talks
about cryptography a lot in the paper, and
one thing that we all forget about is that
cryptography was at one point illegal.
Um, it was a sort of, it was a
(17:00):
government, you know, it, it was seen
as like being like a, a government tool.
and, and this seems weird, you know,
if you've, you know, grown up with
smartphones because, it's like,
well, obviously it has encryption.
you know, there was like a
little padlock that, appears
in the corner of the browser.
Um, when you go to a website,
actually I take that back.
There isn't there used to be, but a lot
(17:21):
of browsers no longer even surface that
because it's just expected that all web
communications are encrypted, right?
Like it used to be that having a
web, an encrypted connection to
a website was a special thing.
Now it's seen as a default and
being unencrypted is they, they let
you know when it's not encrypted.
you know, everyone kind of
expects that their Apple messages
(17:42):
are encrypted to some degree.
You always hear these news articles
about the FBI, you know, having to
work really hard to try and hack
iPhones to get people's iMessage
and all that kind of stuff.
Obviously, we've talked about,
as we've talked about before,
you can't fully trust iMessage.
But the point is, is that the modern
day, we have this expectation to some
degree of a certain level of encryption.
(18:03):
This wasn't always the case.
That's because when you look back
in the history of cryptography, I'm
gonna paraphrase here a little bit.
A lot of what we know about cryptography,
like kind of began, you know, at least
with computer cryptography began during
World War ii, began during the forties.
You know, the, the Nazis had this
tool, the, the Enigma Machine,
this, you know, like mechanical
device that was used to try and.
(18:24):
you know, come up with, you know,
like I, I guess you, I don't know
if you'd call it like a rudimentary
encryption key, but you know, a way
for, you know, for their military to,
uh, be able to, uh, encrypt messages.
And so the allied forces, you know,
have a bletchley park and they have the.
The, you know, this is where Alan
Turing worked and there was this, you
know, um, movement to try and build,
(18:46):
you know, war, really early computers.
It's like, how can we use technology
to break the enemy's technology, right?
And so after World War ii, you
know, cryptography and these early
computers were, you know, made for,
encrypting things and, and trying
to break other people's encryption.
And so this was seen
as military technology.
(19:07):
And so you enter this era of the
personal computer, like late eighties,
early nineties, and suddenly you
have people trying to, and these
are the Cipher Punks, punks.
They're trying to, write
encryption software that can
run on a personal computer.
And this was very, very controversial
at the time because, you know, there
was actually, you know, you know,
(19:29):
accounts you'll hear on the net of like.
Uh, you know, people holding a
cryptography conference and like,
you know, you know, thinking, well,
that guy in the corner is like a
plant from the NSA or something.
And this, again, this sounds a
little paranoid, but you have
to put it in historical context.
At this point in time, these things
were seen as military weapons.
(19:49):
It's like this whole, you know, kind
of, you know, part of the cipher punk
mythology that it's like, well, the, the,
the encryption software was illegal and.
Um, if you were to, you, you know,
share a floppy disc with this
encryption software, you know, you
were transporting, uh, munition.
in legal terms.
And so that's where, you know, people
(20:10):
were trying to kind of, you know, come up
with these resistance things like, well,
if I tattoo the encryption algorithm on
my body, does my body become illegal?
you know, if I put it in a book or a
t-shirt that, you know, might be like,
subject to some kind of free trade,
you know, rule or something like that.
Does it?
you know, is it no longer a munition?
And, you know, it, it, and nowadays
(20:31):
all of this, you know, seems like,
well, obviously encryption, you
know, people should have encryption.
But, you know, if it wasn't for this,
this, movement, the, of, you know,
digital activists called the Cipher
Punk, it, it might be that, you know,
this stuff would, this knowledge
would, you know, still be, walked
away hidden from all, all of us today.
(20:51):
Thanks for the historical context.
And one more thing is the, it
culminated, I would, you could say in
a landmark case in the nineties where
the Supreme Court of the United States
ruled that encryption and software
is actually treated like speech.
(21:14):
And so that they, could not forbid
it under that classification.
And so, uh, I think that's sort of
the start of when encryption started
becoming available to everybody.
You know, previously,
like you said, it was.
Highly controlled, and it was
(21:34):
a military and government tool
and weapon you could even say.
And now suddenly this powerful
technology is available to anybody
that has a personal computer.
And he kind of predicts
this in the paper too.
I says, we don't much care if you
don't approve of the software we write.
(21:56):
We know that software can't
be destroyed and that a widely
dispersed system can't be shut down.
Yeah, exactly.
And jumping forward to 2008 when
Satoshi released Satoshi Nakamoto
released the Bitcoin White paper,
that is so jumping from 1993 when this
(22:17):
was written to 2008, you could see.
The Bitcoin white paper was putting
into practice many of these same cipher
punk goals that are listed right here.
Um, what is it, 10, 15 years prior?
Yeah.
It took, I guess about, uh, eight,
(22:39):
yeah, like 15 years for, them to
finally, uh, invent electronic money.
And something that for, for people who
are Bitcoin geeks out there and have
studied this history a little bit,
you'll know that even though Satoshi
released the Bitcoin White paper in
2008 and the first, Bitcoin software in
(22:59):
2009, it did not come out of nowhere.
It was built on all of this privacy and
encryption technology that had been.
worked on for decades, right?
So you had the, the first public
private key cryptography came out
in the 1970s with the RSA algorithm.
(23:22):
so that, that was absolutely
essential for Bitcoin to be invented.
It wouldn't work without
that kind of cryptography.
And then, um, you had hashing algorithms
that was over the next several decades
in the seventies, eighties, nineties.
And, proof of work as well, which
was, which was invented in the
(23:42):
nineties as well for, basically
an anti-spam prevention Hash cash.
Yeah.
Hash cash by Adam back.
And so you had, it, it was really a
culmination of decades of cumulative
research by all of these cipher
punks and cryptographers and, and.
(24:02):
By bringing these things to
the open source world where
anybody could work on it.
You had some, you had the possibility
for an anonymous person like Satoshi
Nakamoto to use all of these available
tools and to put them together in a
unique way and invent something that
nobody had been able to invent up until
that point, which was digital money.
(24:28):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it's like Satoshi, you know,
nobody knows who Satoshi is, and it
doesn't really matter at this point if
you ask me, but it's like, it, it seems
like Satoshi was, and, and, you know, must
have been inspired by these conversations.
Like, you know, maybe Satoshi
(24:48):
was somebody who was on the,
the cipher punk mailing list.
and, and that's, , another kind of
point is like this, this manifesto,
I think was originally shared
on the Cipher Punk mailing list.
And so there was a, a lot of conversation
and, uh, about this kind of stuff and,
you know, that's, that's where a lot
of these, people would hang out on.
I'd like to fast forward to today
(25:10):
and talk about the echoes or the, um.
The mark that this
manifesto has left on us.
And, you and I, I would say are
kind of, we're, we're a similar age.
We're certainly younger than Eric Hughes
and probably younger than Satoshi,
although we can't know for sure.
(25:30):
But, just based on when you
and I ha have, uh, started our
careers and got into software, we.
Uh, I think it might be accurate
to say we're sort of second
generation cipher punks are sort of
following in their footsteps mm-hmm.
As we continue to push forward both
(25:50):
Bitcoin building on top of Bitcoin
and all of the sovereign computing
software that we, use and spread and
work on and promote, and it's, it's.
All in the name of a similar ethos that
is described here, which is, privacy as
a, as a right, the ability to selectively
(26:14):
reveal oneself to the world and, the use
of encryption technologies for everybody.
Yeah.
Well, I hope I'm a second
generation cipher punk.
Maybe, maybe not.
You're right.
We're certainly second
generation from them.
I bet that that brings up a,
an interesting point, which
is, uh, famous line here.
Cipher Punk's write code,
(26:35):
and, I definitely write code.
I'm, you know, I always identify primarily
as a designer, but I've definitely
written a ton of, front end code and,
you know, some, some backend, the
smattering of backend code here and there.
And I think, this
definition is interesting.
I'm trying to think if I've ever
like directly worked on a, like,
I guess I have written code that
(26:57):
has gone, I mean, I've definitely
written code that real users use.
So, but it's interesting when you, you
think about it because, they're very
strict about that kind of definition.
I think.
and some, some people interpret this
line a little bit more broadly these
days of like, oh, well it's just someone
who just like, generally likes and, you
know, cryptography and privacy and stuff.
You can call yourself a cipher punk.
(27:18):
Some people are a little more
strict about that definition.
They'll say, no, you're not a
cipher punk unless you write code.
I think it's interesting because
I think there's a little bit of
wisdom in, in, in the stricter, uh,
definition because the, the way I
(27:40):
interpret a lot of the like cipher
punk philosophy is like this, it's like
you can have your opinions about what.
You think a government
or a company should do?
And that's fine.
You're welcome to have your opinions,
but at the end of the day, it kind
of doesn't matter what you feel about
what they should do because they're
(28:01):
gonna do whatever they're able to do.
Right.
I think he, he kind of says something
to that effect at another point in here.
Like, you know, one line
is like, uh, you know.
it is their advantage to speak of us and
we should expect that they will speak to
try to prevent their speech is to fight
against the realities of information.
So, it's, it's like the, the kind of
philosophy is that like this kind of
(28:22):
negative state of the world where, third
parties will try to collect information on
you and we'll try to use that against you.
it's not something that your thoughts
and feelings will really change.
And so the, the conclusion I think that
they've come to, is that the only way
to, you know, the, the only path forward
from that is to actively defend yourself
(28:44):
to like digitally defend yourself.
and the way that you like digitally
defend yourself is using cryptography.
It is.
encrypted, uh, it is,
encrypting your messages.
it is, verifying your identity to,
you know, being anonymous where
possible, verifying your identity,
uh, via the use of digital signatures.
it is using anonymous, anonymous,
(29:05):
electronic, cache systems.
It's, it's all of these different things.
These are like ways that you actively
fight to claim your privacy and you
actively work to conceal yourself.
and so that's why I think the, the,
the Cipher Punk's right code line is
that it's like, you know, it's like
that being Cipher punk, I think in
(29:25):
their eyes is more than just like
a, a, ooh, I'm interested in this,
or I feel this way about something.
It's like I'm actively doing something
and I'm actively, kind of, asserting
my will, uh, via the code that I write.
Totally.
And if you wanna take a stricter
definition of the Cipher Punks,
you know, maybe it was only these
(29:47):
particular guys that wrote that kind
of software, and maybe those who do.
So today, you could say we
here are following in the
footsteps of the Cipher Punks.
We are championing that ethos
and, benefiting from the
work that they've done, but.
In any case, I think, I think
(30:09):
we can say that we want to,
to push forward this idea.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I wanted to repeat a line
that you had referenced.
We cannot expect governments,
corporations, or other large
faceless organizations to grant us
privacy out of their beneficence.
And I just wanna repeat, I wanna focus
(30:31):
on that because it's, it's worth.
Concentrating on the fact that if we just
sit back and don't care about our privacy,
corporations, governments, and other
organizations, they are not, it, it's
not in their best interests to care about
our privacy and, and to grant us privacy
and to act in our best interest that way.
(30:53):
So they're not going to the
only people who will are us.
So if we don't do it, no one will.
Yep.
And I think that's important to remember
when people sometimes ask, you know, why
bother going through all of this trouble?
Why do you do a weekly podcast on this?
Why do you go through the extra
(31:15):
steps required to make your
devices more private, et cetera?
And that's part of the reason because
nobody else is gonna do it for us.
Yeah.
Another part I wanna focus on is where.
He says that I'm looking for the spot
now, so apologies for the the pause, but
(31:40):
I'm looking for the part where he talks
about how it's not bound by a nation's.
Ah, here it is.
Even laws against cryptography
reach only so far as a nation's
border in the arm of its violence.
Cryptography will enact.
I still don't know what this word means.
I've gotta look that up.
Electively spread over
(32:00):
the whole globe, guys.
Dude's got a vocabulary not
to be avoided or escaped.
Inevitable.
Okay?
So it's cryptography will inevitably
spread over the whole globe is
what he is saying in electable.
In electable.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
So what he's saying here is governments
(32:21):
can make laws and regulations on
cryptography, but because cryptography
is information, it's not gonna be
bound by any nation state borders.
I mean,
countries will try, governments will try
to enforce it, but ultimately it's really
(32:43):
difficult even with the power of the most.
Powerful nation states in the world,
it's almost impossible for them to
enforce, these regulations and laws
on cryptography because how do you
put down a wall for something digital?
Right?
How do you prevent something from
leaking out across the internet?
(33:04):
Well, you might say China does, tries to
do just that, but we know that their great
firewall of China is not airtight, right?
Things leak in and out all the time.
so they, this is, and China of course,
has a very totalitarian approach.
We here in the west don't have that.
Okay.
We had a recording equipment failure
(33:27):
and we lost the last 10 minutes or so
of the discussion, but we are going to
continue on now with the boost segment.
we got a boost from Gavin Green for 100
SATs, and Gavin says It does indeed.
It does indeed.
Gavin was referring to a previous
(33:48):
boost by me, Jordan Bravo, and I was
sending in a test boost just to see
if it was properly displaying my name
when I hooked up my nasta profile.
And for those of you who don't
know, you can in Fountain
connect it to your Nasra profile.
You just paste in your end pub and it
will show your, your name and your avatar.
(34:09):
If, for those of you who want to link
the two up, if you want to boost in,
you can do so with Fountain fm. You can
do that on iOS or Android, or you can
do it through the Fountain FM website.
You can also.
Email us sovereign@atlbitlab.com.
And Steven, did you have
anything you wanted to add?
(34:30):
Yeah, and if you have issues boosting,
because sometimes with Fountain and
other podcasting 2.0 apps, you need
to use a special kind of lightning
wallet that not everybody has and
it can be a little frustrating.
So if you just want like some regular
Bitcoin payments, and you wanna support
the show, you can go to atl bitlab.com.
And click on the podcast, uh, link.
And the header nav bar, it's
(34:52):
just slash podcast is the URL.
you.
There is a send us a tip button,
underneath the podcast description.
Also, if you click on any
episode, there's a big, orange.
Send us a tip button.
Those buttons just go
to our BDC pay server.
It accepts regular old
Bitcoin over lightning.
Nothing fancy.
On chain Bitcoin, that might
be a little bit easier for
you than the Fountain Boost.
(35:13):
Um, so yeah, if you do want to, support
the show sends a tip, you can always
go there if that's easier for you.
Yep.
And that's atl bitlab.com/podcast.
Alright, thanks everybody.
We'll see you next time later.
Hey, thanks for listening.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you want to learn more about
anything that we discussed, you can
(35:34):
look for links in the show notes
that should be in your podcast
player, or you can go to atlbitlab.
com slash podcast.
On a final note, if you found
this information useful and you
want to help support us, you can
always send us a tip in Bitcoin.
Your support really helps us so that we
can keep bringing you content like this.
All right.
(35:54):
Catch you later.
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