Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So my takeaway from this is that
while yes, it's nice to have privacy
respecting laws in, in a given
jurisdiction, you can't rely on that.
There's always a chance that those
laws will change for the worst.
welcome to the Sovereign Computing
Show, presented by ATL BitLab.
I'm Jordan Bravo, and this is a
(00:20):
podcast where we teach you how to
take back control of your devices.
Sovereign Computing means you own your
technology, not the other way around.
This episode is sponsored by ATL BitLab.
ATL BitLab is Atlanta's
freedom tech hacker space.
We have co working desks,
conference rooms, event space,
(00:41):
maker tools, and tons of coffee.
There is a very active
community here in the lab.
Every Wednesday night is
Bitcoin night here in Atlanta.
We also have meetups for cyber security,
artificial intelligence, decentralized
identity, product design, and more.
We offer day passes and nomad passes
for people who need to use the lab only
occasionally, as well as memberships
for people who plan to use the lab
(01:02):
more regularly, such as myself.
One of the best things about
having a BitLab membership isn't
the amenities, it's the people.
Surrounding yourself with a
community helps you learn faster
and helps you build better.
Your creativity becomes amplified
when you work in this space,
that's what I think at least.
If you're interested in becoming
a member or supporting this space,
please visit us at atlbitlab.
(01:24):
com.
That's A T L B I T L A B dot com.
Alright, on to our show.
Welcome to the Sovereign Computing Show.
I'm Jordan Bravo and I'm recording
here in Atlanta with Steven Delorme.
And we want to first remind you that you
(01:46):
can send a Boosto gram into the show with
a so with a podcasting 2.0 compatible
app like Fountain FM or any other app
where you can send in Lightning boosts
and we will read them on the show.
We get to listen to your feedback
and you also help support the show.
You may also email us.
(02:07):
Our email address is
sovereign@atlbitlab.com and today
we have a pretty good topic.
We're gonna be talking about
sovereign and private ways to
use GPS and mapping software.
But first we are going to
talk about a, a news article.
(02:27):
The company Proton, the makers of
Proton Mail and other pro products
that they've rolled out, like Proton
Drive, proton Calendar, et cetera.
They've announced in a blog
post, a new AI related product.
They call it Luo, LUMO.
And we will have the link in the show
(02:48):
notes as well as we're gonna show the.
Article here on the screen for those
of you watching, but the gist of it is
they are announcing this AI product.
You might say cynically, to jump on board
the AI hype train, but they are trying
to be competitive with other AI tools out
there, but with their own proton twist.
(03:08):
So they tout that this is a private AI
solution and they compare themselves to.
the other is like chat, GPT,
Google Gemini, and those
other big, dominant players.
But they, they tout the privacy and
they, they list several features of it.
they list no logs.
(03:29):
Steven, can you scroll
down a little bit please?
Down
Down?
Yeah,
Let's see.
Got it.
so no logs, so they don't keep
any logs of your conversations.
Zero access encryption.
they say, they say your chats
are stored to using our battle
tested, zero access encryption.
So even we can't read
them, no data sharing.
(03:52):
Big tech companies share your
data with third party vendors,
advertisers, and government agencies.
Lumos, no logs and encrypted architecture
ensure we don't have data to share.
And then they list their next point
is that they're not used to train ai.
Unlike other AI services, Lumo doesn't
use your conversations or inputs
(04:13):
to train large language models.
And then, uh, their last bullet point
that they have here is open Luin.
Lumo is based on open source
language models and operates from
protons, European data centers.
And then they have one of
these classic marketing.
charts where it's like their product and
(04:33):
then the other competitors and theirs
has all the green check marks and the
other competitors are mostly red xs.
So, you know, take that
with a grain of salt.
but I just wanted to bring this up and
bring it to everybody's attention because
this is a. Privacy respecting company
who is now putting out an AI offering.
(04:54):
And so, I have not tried this yet,
but it sounds like it could be a
good alternative to some of the other
providers that give zero about privacy.
whether or not this lives up to its hype,
whether it, all of the marketing that
they purport in their blog post, actually.
(05:15):
Is true.
In other words, is it really
as private as they say it is?
That's something we'll have
to take a closer look at.
let me ask you, Steven, I know you use
Proton and their suite of products.
Have you tried Lumo yet?
I.
I tried it, very briefly
and, I'm happy to see it.
I haven't like.
Used it as a daily,
(05:36):
daily driver for AI yet.
But I think what I prompted it with was,
the first time I tried it was something
like, can you tell me which model you are?
can you tell me which model or which,
like ai, LLM you are, are backed by?
I don't know.
It's always weird how to
phrase that question because
(05:57):
you kind of implying agency.
See, the last time I asked that, it
said I am the Misra Mistral model.
in fact, my collection of advanced
models developed by proton.
But lemme ask again, the like, are you
llama seek R one, his control, et cetera.
(06:22):
Empowered by a collection of advancement.
Okay.
Huh, interesting.
Uh, I gotta say this is also faster
than my experience was the other day.
so it was like, I felt like it
was very sluggish and slow and.
You know, that's kind of been my
experience with a lot of end-to-end
encrypted stuff is there's always this
kind of extra latency when waiting for
(06:44):
stuff to be encrypted and decrypted
and all of that kind of stuff.
let's, let's like interrogate
this thing a little bit.
You seem faster today than when I used
Lumo the other day, and you give me.
An overview of how
(07:08):
Lumo works to encrypt my data
and safeguard privacy, if at all.
I was, you know, a little definitely
slower than like Chad, GPT, but it's not.
usable, right?
It's definitely not bad.
(07:29):
Sure.
Lumos designed with a strong
focus on privacy and security.
Here's scenario how it works.
Your actors encrypt all your actions
with Lumo are encrypted in n This
means that even ProCon cannot access
the content of your conversation.
The encryption keys are
stored, located in your device.
Secure.
You can decrypt your data
on device processing.
Lumo processes your request locally
on your device whenever possible.
This minimizes the amount of data
(07:50):
that needs to be sent to our servers,
reducing the risk of interception
or authorized access, secure data
transmission When data does need to
be transmitted to our servers, for
example, to retrieve information or
perform certain text is encrypted, using
industry standard protocols to ensure
it remains secured during transit.
Minimal data storage limos design
store results day is possible.
conversation history is encrypted and
stored only if you choose to save it.
(08:10):
regular security audits, all of that.
that's really weird that Lumo is claiming
that the model is stored locally.
In which case if it is, it's probably
one of these like super lightweight
models, kind of like the one that
they had in the, the proton mail that
would like finish your emails for you.
yes.
Does Luo utilize kind of trusted execution
(08:37):
or secure enclave for, processing data
in other words, do you have models
running in your server, you know,
server farm, and, are those models.
Are those models running in a TE?
(08:58):
This thing may not know.
It could just be both, you know,
BSing us, because LLMs can sometimes
be a little bit sycophantic and
always say things to please you.
But I, I think I'm, I'm really
just comparing this in my mind
with how like Maple works.
The, the one that's like, that's,
uh, run by the open secret
Yeah.
And now it's slowing down.
(09:21):
but the open secret one is like an actual
encrypted backend that the model executes
in a trusted execution environment
and they can generate a proof that,
you know, demonstrates it's encrypted.
This sounds like it's different.
As of my current knowledge, Lumo
leverages proton's robust encryption
practices in true days, pro protected.
While I don't have specific details
about the use of trusted execution
(09:41):
environments or secure enclaves, proton
is committed to blah, blah, blah.
So my kind of take on this having
interrogated this ai, doing it live
here, is that I think it's a great
step and I think it's a great, that
proton is like entering the AI game.
think the, the, it sounds to me like
(10:02):
what they're doing is, I, I can't imagine
that all of these interactions are
actually running from an on device model.
If they are, I mean, it could be the case.
Um, they don't advertise
it in the blog post.
but that sounds like it would
be pretty wild if it was.
so assuming that's the case, I guess
it's actually pretty private if it's
(10:22):
all running from an on-device model.
It's just that the problem is that,
least in the current day, it's nowhere.
It's not gonna be as powerful as like
the, clawed, sonnet four or whatever.
It's not gonna be as, you
know, powerful as a GPT-4.
Oh.
just running with this like tiny
little, model, you know, housed
in local storage or whatever.
(10:44):
but it's a great start and I
think it's great to, to have
an alternative, all of that.
So I'll just have to use it
more and see if it's powerful
enough to be a daily driver.
I agree, I, I want to
emphasize something you said.
So either it's running a lightweight
model locally, in which case you would
get more privacy, but it's gonna be
severely limited in power compared
(11:06):
with a model that's running on a really
expensive GPU farm on their cloud servers.
So I would say.
As soon as you get a chance to use
it more, you'll be able to determine
how powerful of a model it is by
its accuracy and explanatory power.
(11:26):
cause I know you've used both
lightweight and heavier models.
So to me, that'll make itself apparent
if it is apparent that it is powerful
and it's running, uh, on their servers.
and the fact that they're
not using any kind of.
Confidential computing like
maple, I, I think there's kind
of a hole in their privacy model.
(11:48):
They say that there's no logs, there's
no, and it's a zero trust model.
But at the same time, if they're not
using a confidential compute environment,
how could they possibly send your query
to the server without that ever being,
Detect ever being read by anybody that
has server access, because think about
(12:09):
it, it can't be end-to-end encrypted
because the model that's on the
server has to be able to process it.
So to me, that's a little bit of
a, it's a little misleading there.
I.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
the, the model running on that server
has to be processing it, so I mean,
it's definitely gonna get like.
(12:31):
It's gonna be unencrypted at some
point, but it, it's one of those
kind of trade offs that might be good
enough because, proton as a company,
I think, I think they're pretty
committed to privacy at this point.
And, I definitely think there's
a stronger, cultural norm
around data privacy in Europe.
so that could be, it could be
that that's good enough if they
(12:51):
just have this policy that's like.
You know, we delete the logs and
if you want your message history
saved, it's encrypted the same way
the emails and the calendars are.
I mean, that's and probably,
you know, a good step.
I mean, having a cultural.
(13:11):
Having a cultural commitment to
privacy at your company isn't as
good as, um, you know, end-to-end
encryption all the way down the stack,
but I think it'll go a long way.
It's better than not having that cultural
commitment to privacy at your company.
Exactly.
I want to end on a high note
on this where, which is if you
(13:32):
compare it to other offerings.
There's other companies like Google
Open API, where their business
model explicitly uses data.
So, um, like they collect data and
that feeds their whole business model.
Whereas proton, their business
model is explicitly not from that,
it's from paid subscriptions.
(13:54):
So, and like you said, their whole
culture, their ethos and their.
Their sort of product that they're
selling to their customers is privacy, so
they're not gonna be monetizing your data.
They don't have an incentive to do that.
And I think the, to me, I, I would feel
much more comfortable using this if
I'm, if I'm worrying about privacy than
(14:14):
something like a chat GPT or a Gemini.
Yeah.
And, uh, that sounds good to me.
And this thing can search the web too.
So just, that feature.
Works.
That's cool.
Okay.
I've been, uh, for anyone who's, uh,
listening or just listening only,
I've asked it to search the web
and find news from Atlanta today.
Extreme heat warning, it says next week
(14:36):
is gonna be a Scorcher might exceed
110 Fahrenheit in Atlanta next week.
Alright, well I think we've
talked about lumo enough, but I
want to make a quick pivot here.
I know we originally had not intended
to talk about another article, but um,
(14:57):
there was something I noticed as part of
this article, something about proton, and
they said that they're gonna be moving.
It's in the same, it's
in the same announcement.
So, uh, if you look at the last.
Paragraph here.
Excuse me if I'm sounding like I'm
reading while I'm, while I'm talking.
(15:19):
But if you look at the last paragraph.
Is that it?
the Euro stack for the future?
Yeah.
So it says, let me, let me read
this quick, paragraph here.
Lumo represents one of many investments
proton will be making before end of
decade to ensure that Europe stays strong,
independent, and technologically sovereign
because of legal uncertainty around.
(15:40):
Swiss government proposals to
introduce mass surveillance proposals
that have been outlawed in the eu.
Proton is moving most of its physical
infrastructure out of Switzerland.
Lumo will be the first product to move.
This shift represents an investment of
over 100 million euros into the EU proper.
While we do not give up the fight
(16:01):
for privacy in Switzerland and will
continue to fight proposals that we
believe will be extremely damaging
to the Swiss economy, proton is
also embracing Europe and helping to
develop a sovereign Europe stack for
the future of our home continent.
Lumo is European and proudly so, and
here to serve everybody who cares
about privacy and security worldwide.
(16:21):
That's interesting because, you know,
the, the narrative around proton and
Switzerland was like, I remember like
seven years ago it was more like, well,
Swiss has the, you know, Switzerland has
these amazing privacy laws, and that, that
was like the selling point to proton mail.
It was like end-to-end encryption stored
on, you know, servers governed by,
you know, hardcore Swiss privacy laws.
(16:43):
they're saying this, uh, privacy
laws are, uh, sounds like
under threat in Switzerland.
so I hadn't heard about this.
Exactly they, the way that they
used to advertise it, they made it
sound like Switzerland, famously
known for its private Swiss banking
back, you know, several decades ago.
(17:04):
And, and it now has that.
Same air of privacy when it comes
to data in the modern internet age.
But as we can see with this
jurisdictions, regulations can change
on a dime in any given jurisdiction.
So my takeaway from this is that
while, yes, it's nice to have privacy
respecting laws in, in a given
(17:26):
jurisdiction, you can't rely on that.
It's, there's always a chance that
those laws will change for the worst.
This whole Euro stack thing they
linked to is also interesting.
Probably too deep of a rabbit
hole to really fully explore.
But I mean the, the gist of this Euro
(17:46):
Stack website, it's our original idea for
a European industrial policy initiative,
bringing together tech governance and
funding for Europe focused investments to
build and adopt, adopt a suite of digital
infrastructures from connectivity to
cloud computing, AI and digital platforms.
So like.
In other words, my take on this,
not following European politics
super closely, is like we have this
(18:10):
kind of movement here to, among.
European players to, to make sure
that, um, there are enough data
centers in Europe, you know, that
are, healthy data centers, uh, run
by, you know, European, companies.
because when you think about it, like
the, the whole like just access to
(18:30):
compute and energy is, you know, probably
going to be a huge geopolitical issue.
was listening to another podcast a couple
weeks ago that was really fascinating,
just getting into the whole idea of
like, AI as like a, a warfare, concern
because like, you know, drones and, you
(18:50):
know, you know, almost any other kind
of, military, modern military system
you can imagine is going to rely upon,
you know, really good calculation.
But also like the, the insights of ai.
Um.
And so like, basically having
access to AI is going to be
a national security concern.
(19:11):
If you have another country that has,
you know, AI powered warfare and you
don't, so you need AI and, to, to, to
have really great ai, you need really
great data centers and you need, also
enough energy to power those data centers.
So it's kind of interesting
'cause we, we've certainly seen
this, I think on the US side.
of the like, project Stargate stuff, and
(19:31):
this seems like a very similar kind of,
thing happening on the European side.
You know, like we need enough data centers
to actually stay competitive and we need
the, you know, businesses, an ecosystem
of businesses that use those data centers.
So interesting.
The, the way I see it, like you said,
on a, from a geopolitical standpoint,
(19:53):
it seems like in the same way that the
US doesn't wanna be so reliant on, for
example, China for various manufacturing,
it seems like Europe is a little, is
concerned that they are too reliant on.
The US and other countries for all of
their data centers and computing needs.
(20:13):
So this seems like they're trying to
be a little bit more self-sovereign
as a European Union, which I
can understand that viewpoint.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay.
Well, let's move on to
our main topic today.
We are going to hit on something
very important for those of you.
(20:35):
Who are trying to stay more private
and sovereign with your data, and
that is how do we use GPS and maps and
navigation while giving up as little bit
as little of our privacy as possible?
So most of us would know that
the main dominant players are
gonna be Google and Apple.
(20:57):
Google Maps, apple Maps.
If you're using an iPhone, you probably
are using Apple Maps, although you
might also be using Google Maps.
And then Google, of course,
Android phones are gonna be using
Google Maps almost exclusively.
But let's talk about some alternatives.
First, I want to introduce this
concept of open street maps that.
(21:19):
People might not have heard of.
If you go to openstreetmaps.org, you can
see the sort of homepage of this project.
And this is not a single company, but
this is an open source project, as
kind of denominate denoted by the name.
Although names can be misleading.
For example, OpenAI is not actually
open, but in this case, open Streete
(21:40):
Maps is actually open and it's open
in terms of it's a crowdsourced.
Database of mapping data.
So mapping data is, is very valuable.
Google Maps, they mapped out
much of the world and that's
what powers their MAP software.
(22:00):
But Open Streete Maps on the other hand,
is completely free to use by anyone.
There are a lot of businesses that use it.
And there are several apps and we're
gonna look at a couple of those apps that
we can use as individuals to navigate.
the first one is called Magic Earth.
This is downloadable on iOS or Android,
(22:22):
and unlike Google Maps, magic Earth
uses the open Street maps data that
we just spoke about, and they also
have, um, privacy guarantees in their
ethos if you, when you download it,
I remember there's a, a big banner
that pops up on first use that says.
(22:43):
Your data is not being used anywhere else.
And, um, the, it might be
under their FAQ as well.
If, if we can navigate there, Steven,
or, or,
nice looking
yeah, or maybe just under
their, their why go with us.
(23:04):
Uh, let's see.
I've already lost it.
There we go.
Okay.
So what there, there are
benefits that they tout.
They have offline maps, so you can
actually still use it while you are,
while you have no, uh, data connection.
You can be in airplane mode, for
example, and still be, um, using
(23:24):
all the, the downloaded map data.
There's also, they tout privacy first.
Could you scroll up a little?
I think it was one of their first
sections on the site that say, uh, privacy
first by design, live traffic, smooth
navigation, 3D maps and offline access.
I,
(23:46):
Do, uh, what's their model like?
Or is this a paid product?
let's see, coming soon, a private Google
and apple free payment option pricing.
They go to
99 cents a year.
So they say they don't track you.
We don't sell your behavior.
(24:07):
We don't monetize your movement.
But building and maintaining a high
quality app with global, global
coverage, real-time features and
offline capabilities takes real
work and long-term investment.
That's why we're introducing
a charge of 99 cents per year.
That seems cheap,
(24:28):
but not complaining.
Did you say that seems,
seems steep, the price.
Cheap.
Oh, cheap.
Yeah, it does.
It does seem very cheap.
like that seems like a
no brainer to buy that.
I mean, I guess it depends
on how good the product is.
Have you used it before?
I have, uh, I've been using
(24:51):
this for a little while.
It's decent.
It's gotten me from A
to B most of the time.
Uh, it's not nearly as good uxy as
Google Maps or, or, let me rephrase that.
The UX is nice.
It's just not quite as accurate as Google
(25:12):
Maps and as speedy, it's a little slower.
and occasionally it gives weird
directions, but, oh, and, and
here's the, here's the part where
I really noticed a difference.
Uh The way, it's not as good as Google
Maps or Apple Maps, while you can type in
any address and it will get you there, the
(25:34):
name search functionality is not nearly as
good as you might expect on Google Maps.
So for example, if I type in Shake
Shack, now that one it'll probably
find, but if you type in some lesser
known business or or name of a location,
a lot of times it'll have trouble
finding it and you have to actually.
Do a Google search or do a, a web search
(25:56):
for the address, for the business name,
find their address and then paste it in.
So that's a little bit of a pain
Is that because it doesn't source
any names of businesses from Google.
maybe, but it does store some names.
So some names it'll find,
but others it will not.
And I, I haven't found why that is.
(26:20):
It is probably because like open street
maps is like a volunteer project,
and so like, so, so does, does Magic
Earth use open street map under
Yes, it does.
So it because Open Streete Map is a
(26:43):
user maintained project, be that there
are just some businesses that people
have added to Open Streete Map Magic
Earth is therefore able to find those.
Whereas not all, like if for any
given small business in the US it's
more likely that they're going to
(27:03):
be, registered on Open Street, on
Open Streete map, or I'm sorry.
It's more likely that they're going
to register themselves on Google My
Business, so that they can get all
these, you know, people coming into
their business and Google business.
Not as likely they're gonna
be on Open Streete map.
Yep.
it can be so that, that, that would be my
guess as to why it sometimes finds things
(27:25):
by a name search and other times doesn't.
Yeah, that's a good point.
So it's the search is only gonna be
good as the underlying data and the
data, because it's open street maps,
it's, it's volunteer and crowdsourced.
So like you said, if a small business
hasn't been added by some volunteer,
then it won't be searchable.
But as far as.
(27:46):
GPS and navigation goes.
I think it's got really good ux and I do
like the offline feature because Google
Maps and Apple Maps do not have that.
The way they present this, uh,
this map is they use different
layers than Google does.
I'm looking at the open
street map view of Atlanta.
It makes Atlanta look like it's built
(28:07):
on a perfect grid system or something.
Which is funny because now
living in Atlanta, I know that
it's anything but a grid and
Yeah, it is just an illusion from
the way they've turned this thing on.
That layers on, on this map.
that's funny.
Yeah.
Atlanta has some very windy streets.
(28:29):
Yeah.
Well, I think that's all there's
to say about Magic Earth.
I, I do think it's got the slickest
UI and UX of any app that's
using Open Streett maps data.
So, uh, I do recommend it.
Go ahead and give it a try.
It seems like a pretty good option.
I'm gonna get into what my
(28:49):
ultimate, what I currently use in a
second, but I wanna go through my.
My journey here.
So another one that I tried
is called Organic Maps.
And this is again, uses
Open street map data.
So it's gonna have a similar
experience in terms of its ability
to find and navigate to destinations.
(29:10):
However, this one, I had a,
a worst experience UX wise.
I had trouble, like when you click
start and you navigate somewhere.
It won't actually like I, it'll get you
most of the way there, but then it's just
got a weird UI quirk where it doesn't
show you the exact address and it won't
(29:33):
say like, here on your right, like it'll
just bring you to the R to the last turn
and then kind of dump you on that street.
And that's it.
Now, maybe I was using it wrong,
maybe I had some setting turned off
by accident, but, that was something
that was frustrating for me and I did
not end up using this for very long.
(29:56):
Yeah, it certainly doesn't look as
slick visually as the other one, but
However, it does have these, the same
feature where you can download the
map and use it offline, so it could be
useful if you are, let's say, hiking
in a place with no data connection,
no cell connection, and you just wanna
(30:16):
a map for that you can use offline.
This is certainly usable.
And do you have any other comments
on org organic maps before
we move on to the next app?
Uh, that really sounds cool that they
have an offline mode for, uh, trail, but
I'd probably rather just go to straight
to Magic Earth if that one works better.
(30:40):
So I, I used both of these for a while
and Magic Earth was getting the job done,
but I recently discovered that Waze.
Is usable on Graphene Os without
using Google Play Services at all.
So you don't need any account,
you don't have to sign in.
You can be on Graphene os, which
(31:00):
is completely degod without even
having to turn on Sandbox, Google
Play and Waze still works perfectly.
So, Waze is a great option.
It's, I would say it's got.
As good of a UX and map data as
Google, because Google purchased
Waze several years ago, so they've
(31:22):
got all the resources of Google.
And so it's funny, I've never
actually tried Wazes in browser
map, but um, yeah, most people know
about Waze at this point, so I don't
really need to describe it too much.
Waze has really good, Live information,
so like traffic and speed traps and
(31:45):
construction and that kind of thing.
this is frankly the best option
that I tried as far as phone apps
without using Google or Apple.
And so this was a real game
changer when I discovered that
I could use this on Graphos.
Now, obviously since Google
owns Waze, they you're,
(32:05):
you're using a Google product.
But, without logging in, and if you're
using other steps to protect your
data, like VPNs and not associating
your app and your phone with your real
identities or any of your accounts,
then I think it's a great option.
Very, it's very private and I
think offs there are minimal.
(32:27):
Interesting.
Wouldn't expected the
browser one to be so good.
Yeah, I should.
I should point out that Waze has both
native Android app and native iOS app.
But wait, are you saying for the one
you use on graphene, are you, you're
(32:48):
actually using, are you using the
Android app or using the browser version.
I'm using the Android app.
The, the reason I mentioned the
browser version was simply because we
have the browser version open up here
right now on the screen, I was just
commenting that I've never seen this
browser version of Waze before, but
what I use on Graphos is the Android
(33:08):
native app, and it works perfectly.
It's very smooth, very fast.
Good ux.
Okay,
Yeah.
so that was, that was
my solution for a while.
And then just very recently,
I, I'm trying something else.
I bought a standalone GPS by
Garmin, and while this might feel
like a step backwards because.
(33:30):
prior to ubiquitous smartphone, GPS
navigation, we all, a lot of people
use these, these are the standalone
apps that you put on your dashboard
or stick to your windshield.
these are really good options
and I'll tell you what I like
about using this currently.
One is the privacy benefit.
This is not connected to, the
(33:52):
internet while I'm driving.
It's not sending data to any company.
And, when I do want to update the
maps, I can connect it to my home wifi
and just hit update and it downloads
and updates it, so it keeps it.
It keeps it current, but
it's not always connected.
it doesn't require me to use any kind
(34:13):
of app on my phone so I can leave my
phone at home if I want to and, and
still navigate places if I ch so choose.
So those are kind of the privacy reasons.
And then finally, there's, there's
sort of a, a might call it a UX
reason, user experience reason.
And for me that is.
Sometimes I don't want my
(34:33):
phone to do everything.
I want a dedicated device.
So maybe I have my phone in my
pocket, I don't wanna pull it out.
Or maybe I'm using my phone for
something else, but I really just
want a single device that sits on my
dashboard that's always there and I
don't have to worry about pulling it
out or putting it in and mounting it.
And it always has the same thing
(34:55):
on it, which is navigation.
And, so far it's, it's worked out great.
So.
I will continue using that and
I'll report back on if I have
any updates that are relevant.
Is this the, the tread two.
The model that I got is called,
mine was, was a lot cheaper.
(35:15):
I I got it for maybe $180.
But, um, I'll,
Wow.
I'll, I'll find the model and put it in
the show notes if anybody's interested.
But if you do a search for Garmin,
Maybe you,
it's pretty, you'll, you'll find it.
it might be yours with
like an older model.
those are pretty cool.
(35:36):
I mean, it's actually fun to see that
they're still making these things.
I remember these things were like, so,
uh, high tech in the late two thousands.
And then uh, you know, I don't know,
once, uh, the iPhones and stuff started
going mainstream, it just like, it
(35:58):
gotta the point where like, no one
wanted to use these things anymore.
but it looks like there's still
a market for this kinda stuff.
I guess it makes sense because like the
way they're kind of marketing this is like
in the little picture on the screen, it's
like the Cane Creek Canyon Trail, and then
the other model, it's like, they're going
through some mountain packs or something.
(36:19):
So I guess, uh, know, if you do,
if you're, you know, kind of a
outdoors person, you, uh, the,
the phone just isn't an option.
I mean, you, you need some kind of way
to have it all downloaded, locally.
need it all downloaded
locally on your phone.
You can't just expect there to
be internet wherever you go.
(36:41):
this, this device is, you know, designed
for storing all the data locally and, and
just routing based on the data it has.
Is it powered by the car?
Yeah, you plug it into your, I mean,
it has a battery, but I keep mine
plugged into my, uh, car power.
Okay.
That's pretty cool.
(37:01):
Yeah, I mean, it, it's it's
like at one point in time,
this was a high tech, thing.
For the most part, it got replaced by
smartphones except for, for the, the needs
of people who do And now, because there's
still this, you know, off-roading market,
these products still get built and.
Privacy conscious people
(37:21):
can use this as an option.
Yeah, it is cool.
One other feature that I don't
personally use, but I just wanted to
throw it out there, you can actually,
they sell a rear view camera that
you can hook up and then it connects.
I think wirelessly to your unit.
So you can actually use it as like
a, backup camera or, and you can also
(37:43):
use it as a, as a front dash camera.
So like you could have a, a front
camera and a rear camera and they
could be recording, you know, if you
want a dash cam, like for example,
people who drive Ubers, or if
you're just conscious about somebody
hitting your car and you won't want.
Video evidence of that in a, in
a car crash, you can use your
(38:04):
Garmin as the like hub for that.
There's some places where people
jump in front of, uh, jump in
front of cars to get payouts.
and uh, so you need those, you need the
I.
uh, dash cam to you know
yourself in case of a lawsuit.
That's right.
Since you scrolled to
(38:25):
the, the watches section.
I personally have not tried the Garmin
watches yet, but I do, I am interested
because they are a smartwatch option
for people who are privacy conscious,
because you can have a smartwatch
that is not connected to anything.
You could also have a smartwatch that
has very minimal connection, you know,
very selective about what you let it.
(38:47):
Communicate.
So this seems pretty cool if, if
you're somebody who is always wanted
a smartwatch but doesn't like the
idea of a all seen, all powerful Apple
or Google watch tracking everything
and reporting all of your data, then
Garmin might be a solution for you.
(39:07):
Hmm.
That's cool.
Yeah, I think the, the health benefits
are always interesting about watches
just being able to like, collect
biometric data about your body.
Yeah, and, and I,
uh, that could
I think if you are able to maintain
control of that data, then that could
be really beneficial without having
to submit yourself to the Borg.
(39:30):
Yeah, exactly.
Well,
So.
go ahead Steven.
I was gonna say there's another,
there's another interesting
map we haven't covered on
And what's that?
which, which, which I
can, uh, it's the BTC
Ah, let's bring it up.
I'm, I mean, I, I don't know
that I, I would recommend
anybody use this for navigation.
(39:50):
guess I haven't tried it for navigation.
I don't know if it works, but I mean, it's
interesting because, you know, you brought
up Open Streete map earlier and how.
Uh, magic Earth.
And, um, the other one, organic maps
like pull from Open Street maps.
And so because Open Streete Maps
is this like open API for, mapping
(40:13):
data, a lot of people will build like
other, specific use cases off of it.
And so btc map.org is this project
to like basically map out all
businesses that accept Bitcoin.
if we type in Atlanta.
oh, that's weird.
A TL bitlab isn't popping up.
(40:35):
There we go.
And then it's zooming in on my screen.
Whoa.
We're flying down from
like the atmosphere.
We go, we have a little map here
and I can, I can click on it and
it'll, you know, give the address
and say that, accepts on chain and
lightning and all this kind of stuff.
you know, similar to how, oh, so like,
(40:57):
basically to add stuff to btc map.org,
what you actually have to do is you,
you have to go to open streete map.org.
And log in and like you basically like
make an account as an editor and you
have to plot like a business on the map
or find an existing business and then
you need to add some metadata to it.
Like they have kind of a spec for adding
(41:19):
metadata to, map markers and stuff.
And um, you can, uh, add the data there.
So it's kinda interesting.
OpenStreetMap is like super flexible and
people can build a, build a lot with it.
I like this.
I think, Bitcoin ATMs are
also on that map as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you, if you like zoom out in,
(41:41):
in Atlanta, there's like a ton of,
yeah, there's like a ton of, well,
I'm not seeing them right now,
but I used to see like a lot of
ATMs popping up all over the city.
There might be like some filter
on right now or something.
Actually really.
yeah.
I wonder, does Open Streete charge
for their, their data or whatever.
(42:03):
Mm, good question
I'm reading
right there.
It says you are free to use it for
any purpose as long as you credit open
Streete Maps and its contributors.
(42:26):
Open Streete Map Foundation.
Huh?
They must have like donors
and, and stuff like that.
Um.
Yeah.
I read at one point that several of
the big companies that were competitors
to Google, so Microsoft and Amazon
and some others, I think they were big
donators to open Streete maps because.
(42:48):
Google has sort of the monopoly on
mapping data, and I guess it's in
their interest, these competitors,
to develop open Streete maps further
Yeah.
There's also Mapbox, which I've used.
For, um, like hash uses Map Arts.
Your, your audio broke up
(43:09):
a little bit, but I'm just
gonna repeat for the audience.
It's Mapbox, M-A-P-B-O x.com.
I don't know if this is based on Open
Streete MAP data or not, but it's a
pretty easy API to work with, but I don't
Is this the one you used for
the uh, hash League project?
(43:30):
Yeah, sure is.
Yeah.
It's pretty cool.
I, I think a lot of, a lot of what this
has, all this mapping stuff is pretty
complicated for me, but it is basically
these tile server things, like a lot
of the benefit to, like, when you're
building something that has a map in it,
it's like not just about, Actual data for
(43:51):
the map, but the ability to like quickly
render that data into something usable.
because it's like, when you think
about it, it's like depending on like
how, how zoomed in you are dictates,
like how much data you need to render.
So it's like if you're like looking
at a city from like, you know,
if you're looking at the whole US
(44:12):
there's like a level of detail, like
in terms of like streets and stuff
that you just don't wanna render.
maybe a couple of
interstates but not streets.
And then when you zoom in on into like the
state level, then you want to start seeing
more like state roads and main roads.
And you zoom in real far and then you
want to start seeing like tiny little
(44:32):
alleyways and individual businesses and
buildings and you know, stuff like that.
And so it's like.
You have to have like these like
tile servers that really do a good
job of like efficiently rendering
images of what the map should look
like and sending them to your device.
that's why it's, it's cool that the
garment is capable of doing that,
(44:53):
all of that stuff offline, I think.
Um, 'cause I don't know, it's,
it's, it's complicated engineering.
We've, I guess human's kind of figured
it out at this point, but it's, you
know, there's definitely a lot of
engineering that went into making
mapping possible on the computer.
it is fascinating.
(45:18):
All right, well, was there anything
else you wanted to cover regarding
Mapbox or Maps in general?
No, I don't think so.
Let's take a look at our boosto grams.
I think we got a couple of boosts into
the show since our last podcast episode.
we had.
(45:38):
An anonymous person, also known as Warder
Mo, wrote in and boosted with 2100 SATs
and said, always a good day when a new
episode of sovereign competing drops.
And then he or she boosted in
with a follow up with 210 SATs
and said, computing, ha ha.
(46:00):
So that's a. Typo correction there.
Thank you for that anonymous.
We appreciate your boost and your message.
And then Keith Sharp
boosted in with 21,000 SATs.
Beautiful number there.
A TL Bitlab, A TL bit devs
always the relevant and useful
(46:21):
lowdown on Freedom Tech.
And uh, I'd like to read
Keith Sharp's profile blurb.
It says Boomer Pleb, node runner, realtor.
Very nice.
Thank you very much, Keith.
We appreciate that boost and your
message and love hearing from you.
Well, that's all the boosts
we have for today's show.
(46:42):
Remember, if you want to boost in,
you can do so with Fountain FM or Pod
verse, or any other podcasting 2.0 apps.
You can also email us
sovereign@atlbitlab.com.
We'd love to hear.
Your experience on this topic.
Have you tried any maps other than
the big ones by Apple and Google?
(47:04):
Have you tried Waze?
Have you tried any standalone GPSs?
What have your experiences
been boosting or writing?
And let us know.
And with that, we will see
you next time everybody.
Thanks for listening.
Hey, thanks for listening.
(47:24):
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you want to learn more about
anything that we discussed, you can
look for links in the show notes
that should be in your podcast
player, or you can go to atlbitlab.
com slash podcast.
On a final note, if you found
this information useful and you
want to help support us, you can
always send us a tip in Bitcoin.
(47:44):
Your support really helps us so that we
can keep bringing you content like this.
All right.
Catch you later.