May 20, 2025 • 52 mins
What makes a literary agent say “yes” to your book pitch in under 30 seconds?
Allison Lane sits with Sam Hiyate, founder of The Rights Factory, to demystify how to write a compelling query letter, position your book in today’s market, and avoid the most common author mistakes.
If you've been wondering how to land an agent or make your book proposal unskippable, this is your masterclass in reverse engineering your author marketing. Hit play now because the publishing game is changing, and this episode helps you change with it.
What You’ll Learn:
- How to tailor your query letter to grab an agent’s attention fast.
- The role of market positioning, comparables, and agent fit in getting published.
- What makes agents say no and how to avoid that response.
Resources Mentioned:
- The Rights Factory: https://www.therightsfactory.com/
- Connect with Sam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samhiyate/
- Research Tool: Publishers Marketplace https://www.publishersmarketplace.com/
- Book Recommendation:
- How to Survive a Bear Attack - A Memoir by Claire Cameron: https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9781039056350
- Detective Aunty - A Novel by Uzma Jalaluddin: https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9780063434875
Timestamps:
- [02:00] What agents scan for in a pitch beyond the writing.
- [06:00] The real purpose of comparables in your proposal.
- [17:00] How to know if an agent relationship is the right fit.
- [26:00] Why your agent is not your marketing director.
- [44:00] The truth about manuscript quality before pitching.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam (00:00):
Nobody knows how good a book has to be in terms of the
(00:03):
quality before you find anagent.
Because even if we're willing towork with you, we want it to be
90% plus there.
And what a lot of people don'tunderstand is what is 90%?
Allison (00:39):
Today on the author's edge, we're pulling back the
curtain on what agents actuallylook for and what gets your
pitch shining from the slushpile.
What gets your pitch noticedright away in a matter of
seconds.
Sam Hiyate is here, CEO, andfounder of the Rights Factory
(00:59):
based in New York City andToronto.
And has 16 agents who are eagerfor your pitch.
So, if you've ever wondered whatgoes on inside the agents inbox,
or how to craft a book proposaland a query letter that stands
out, this episode is for you.
Sam tells us exactly what he'slooking for.
(01:24):
The biggest mistakes authorsmake and why the market is
changing and how you need tochange with it.
Let's get into it.
The big question and my clients,I have a membership.
I teach a course bestsellerlaunch school.
And then I have a monthlymembership.
(01:46):
It's$37 a month, it's nothingbut people come and they get
access to me twice a month.
And I give them tools like Ijust talked to you about.
And they have questions for you.
And they're all about you know,very directly which is
hilarious.
I was like, what do you want meto say, exactly?
(02:08):
So, here's the what they wannaknow.
Most pitches, we understand getdeleted in 30 seconds because
most of the pitches that getsent to you are not informed by
the standards.
We understand that remove 90% ofwhat you get sent'cause I'm sure
(02:30):
it's grandiose and notcompelling.
Of the 10% that are left, whatdo agents actually scan for and
what makes you stop?
Sam (02:48):
That's gonna be different for every agent, and that's why
it's worth doing your research.
So, what I'm scanning for is whyare you reaching out to me?
One, is this something I'mactually looking for?
Two, are there key words thatreally resonate with me?
Does it feel like it's a funnystory?
Heartwarming, transformative?
There are some things that work,especially for me I'm not so
(03:12):
good with overcoming verydifficult stories like people
that talk about their years ofdrug addiction or alcohol
addiction or whatever, and howtough that is.
It's hard for me to even go inthat place.
I live in this kind of beautifulworld of books and most of it,
even when people do have adversecircumstances, I wanna feel like
(03:33):
I can be there with them.
And if it's something that goesbeyond.
A kind of level that I know orunderstand or resonates with me.
I'm like, this isn't right forme.
I know there are agents who haveovercome alcoholism and
addiction and other kinds ofthings like cancers and other
health conditions.
And there's a lot of storiesaround those and it's better to
find somebody that will resonatewith.
(03:55):
So almost all health relatedstuff, mental illness.
Even though, I feel likedepression and anxiety and
A-A-D-H-D and someneurodiversity are so common now
that.
Allison (04:07):
Yeah.
Sam (04:07):
I can't really put that aside'cause that would leave
nothing left if we go there.
So, my biggest books are storiesof relationships.
Often there's a centralrelationship, the film club was
a father and son Moore was abouta husband and wife figuring
something out.
I've done a bunch of other ones.
I'm pitching a bunch now, andthat relationship is important,
(04:29):
but it doesn't have to be aboutthe relationship.
It could be just about thejourney.
But again, I like it to beentertaining, funny, a little
sad.
I have to feel moved by it.
And every agent is gonna responddifferently to a pitch, and
that's why you have to do yourhomework and try a bunch of
them.
I don't know if that answers thequestion, but I'm happy to go
on.
Allison (04:48):
Well, I think what I'm asking you to do is first of
all, anyone who wants to querySam, yes, you should do that
because.
Sam (04:56):
I'm one of the few people that has my email right, on the
site.
Yeah.
I'm open to everybody.
Allison (05:00):
The cheese you definitely like cat's, pajamas
you.
If he's right for you, youshould query him.
What I find from people who youknow, send me questions is how
do I really find out what anagent is looking for in general?
And also there's very little,there's not like a match.com for
(05:25):
agents.
There's manuscript wishlist, butmanuscript wishlist will list
things like, I'm looking for amemoir.
Thank you.
I'm looking for long walks onthe beach as well.
But like, how can the emergingauthor really understand what an
agent is looking for?
(05:46):
Because there's so little there.
I tell them, look at theirsocials.
But still.
Sam (05:54):
I don't have any socials.
My personal socials arerebroadcasting my authors.
So, I try to have a personallife so our agency is my social
media outlet and the agencypromotes all of our clients and
all of our agents equally.
So, that's not gonna work forme.
I think you've given me an ideawhich is I need to put on my
personal page on the website.
(06:15):
A list of some of my biggestbooks and how you as somebody
who doesn't know me, could usethat to infer whether your book
might be right for me or not.
What it was about maybe my top10 biggest books that captured
my imagination that sold me,whether it was a good pitch or
bad pitch.
There was something about thestory, there was something about
(06:36):
the author that kind of got mein there and excited to work
with them.
And I think that's the part thatI think it's hard for writers
who are querying to understandis ultimately you're trying to
get an agent very excited aboutthe project and if the query is
lackluster.
If the proposal is lackluster.
(06:57):
If their writing is lackluster,it's not gonna happen.
It has to be the best you cando.
And only then should you try tofind somebody to say, Hey, I
have this really specialproject.
Basically, that's all a query isI have something really great.
It's just a very distilled andbeautifully condensed and
efficient way of pitching yourproject and yourself.
I think I mentioned in one ofour talks, Allison, recently,
(07:18):
that conferences are a great wayfor me to meet people because I
get to meet them outside of thequery and then they can pitch me
and I can ask them questions.
Some of these conferences arepretty crazy where you get five
minutes to pitch an agent, butit's worth it because if I like
it, I'll say there's somethinghere that I think is interesting
for me.
Because it's interactive.
When a query comes to me, it'sjust a one-sided communication.
(07:40):
It's a pitch to me, and I get tosay yes or no, or maybe.
But if somebody's in front of meand we're talking, and if I like
something about what they'resaying and it's unclear, I can
say do you mean this or that?
Do you mean does this story gohere?
Is this really the kind of maincentral conflict in case they
missed it?
Or is this the main obstacle inthe story that you have to
overcome?
Whether it's a memoir or anarrative story, or if it's some
(08:04):
other kind of book, like a howto or self-help or advice.
Then I wanna know how theirexpertise connects with the
material.
So there's always a bunch ofthings depending on the category
and the person in front of methat I can ask that I can't ask
in a query.
And sometimes we don't wannarespond to a query by saying do
(08:25):
you mean this or that?
Because then we're gonna havesomebody that gets all excited.
This agent responded to me, andthen it's a flurry of activity
and I don't wanna give somebodya heart attack.
Allison (08:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Because they're like, oh, Ifound the one.
No, the agent that you'repitching doesn't have to become
a believer in your five partmethod.
They need to be excited that youknow that this method is needed
in the world, that there's proofof it.
(08:55):
And that they're like, oh, thankheavens, I really like this but
you are not trying to win themover as a student.
Or don't you wanna learn moreabout 18th Century England or
don't you wanna also read thisbook?
As a super fan, it's the agentis salesperson who loves books.
(09:20):
You, guys could be sellingpharmaceuticals if you wanted.
You have hearts of gold and ouragents on earth because you are
working in the book industry.
So check one.
That's why we love you.
But also, if I were an agent,which I'm not, and for those
people who keep sending me theirmanuscripts, please stop.
(09:41):
Just send them to Sam.
I would want people to realize,stop trying to persuade me that
your perspective is the one Ishould have persuade me that
your perspective is needed inthe world and that there's proof
of it that's different.
And I wanna go back to somethingyou said that surprised me too.
(10:02):
You said that when someone sendsyou a query letter, which for
those of you who are new topublishing a query letter is a
pitch letter.
It's like the cover letter of aresume, and it needs to be super
juicy and worth reading.
It is a distillation of yourbook.
(10:23):
It's like the balsamic glaze.
It's boiled down.
It's concentrate.
And also confusingly query isalso a verb.
So when you query an agent withyour query letter, you see how
stupid this is.
You'd think that in publishingwe could come up with something
else.
Sam (10:40):
It is a little redundant.
Allison (10:42):
It's silly.
But what you said is you wannaknow why someone queried you.
That's often the hardest part ofquerying because there's so
little that someone could sayother than because of what you
put on your website, which isthat's not even helpful to you.
Because you said you likenonfiction.
(11:04):
That's not helpful.
Or they've gotta become adigital analyst.
Go to publisher's Marketplace,put together your pattern of
deals.
Sam (11:19):
It is like you're working for the FBI as an analyst and
you're profiling somebody likethis is a serial killer.
We have to figure out what theirprocess is motivation?
Allison (11:29):
And that's what I do one on one with my clients'cause
they're like, I don't know howto do what I do.
Sam (11:35):
I'm not implying that agents are killers.
I'm just saying it's the samekind of profiling work.
Allison (11:39):
It's the same as anything when you do a little
background research on, evenwhen you're applying for a job.
Oh, I know that they're lookingfor this, or they seem to
looking for authors who havethis in common.
But you have to make the leapbecause agents are too busy to
(12:02):
update their entire website oncea week or even once a month to
say, this is what I'm lookingfor.
And I've looked at hundreds ofagent pages and none of them are
truly helpful because they saythings like, I'm looking for a
sweeping family saga.
Thank you.
(12:22):
I also am looking for someonewho's kind and funny.
It's just not helpful.
So, the author themselves has totake a leap, like a gut feeling.
And actually say to the agent, Ireally like your advocacy for
foster kids aging outta thesystem and because of that, I am
(12:46):
querying you with my 62,000 wordpsychology book, which is this.
At least that as the agent.
I would be like, oh, okay, nowI'm ready.
Now I understand.
Sam (13:01):
They've looked me up.
They found something personalabout me.
Allison (13:04):
For you listening, that intro of Here's why I'm quering
you, that was one sense.
You get to the point, we do notneed to know your life story in
that first, that is an intro.
And all you're doing is sayinghere's why.
Now get ready.
(13:24):
Now, Sam, what do you think ismissing?
You see a lot of pitches.
What makes you instantly payattention?
What do you think is missingfrom most pitches.
Sam (13:36):
So assuming that they found a reason to query me over any
other agent.
Allison (13:42):
Yeah.
Sam (13:43):
Whatever that is.
It's usually based on my list,that there's something that
resonated with them about one ofthe books that I sold.
And so they've got that, they'vegot a good description later on
of their story.
But somewhere in between, i'dlike to get some comparables.
I'd like to know where this bookfits in the market.
And that's really hard becausemost people, it's not their job.
Their job is to write a greatbook.
(14:04):
Their job isn't to figure outwhere does my book fit into this
big market of books, and it's amassive market.
If you go on Amazon and startedlooking at all the categories
and all the subcategories andwhich books are the best
sellers?
Like when I say the market,that's what I mean, the whole
market.
And I guess a way of limiting itthat might be really useful is
(14:25):
imagine now instead of Amazon,which is infinite.
That you're walking into a localbookstore and there's all those
sections and categories andthere's the best sellers table
and there's new this and newthat.
And what you wanna say is whatthe comparables is about is you
telling me, saying, imagine ifyou went to this section in the
bookstore.
(14:47):
You found this book and then youwalked over to another section,
you found that book?
My book is like those two booksin those two sections together.
Some of the themes and storiesand characters, journeys and
situations in, if you combinethem, you'll get my book.
And you never really should useone book because if it's already
written, why are you comparingyour book to just my book is
(15:07):
that book exactly.
I changed the name of thecharacters and change a few
things.
Nobody's gonna care.
So you have to say, it'soriginally enough that I can't
quantify it with one, one book.
Or even better, I'm alwayssaying use really recent things
like television and movies sothat we can get a sense of it.
If it doesn't already exist, andoften those things come from
(15:28):
books anyway.
So if you can use somethingabout the actor or how.
Something that caught yourattention about the adaptation
of it, use that because it'sstill based on a book, but why
not make it more kind of snazzy,by talking about the actor.
Allison (15:47):
So, you're saying present it, not it's like this
book that was published fiveyears ago, but it's new.
Sam (15:55):
That would work for something like a book that maybe
was published 30 or 40 yearsago, especially if you had a
twist on it.
You could use that.
This bestselling book, but withthis twist on it.
Then you explain the twist andwhy you're the best person,
because you know that twist.
You've lived that twist so whatqualifies you to give us, to add
that twist to it?
Allison (16:13):
And this is true for fiction as well, right?
Sam (16:17):
Absolutely.
Fiction is much harder thannonfiction because nonfiction
has data and once you've got thecategory and maybe the
subcategory.
If you find the rightcomparables, that's even more
valuable than just figuring outwhere it's placed in the market.
Because it gives you sales data.
So, if you think that this bookis gonna be like that book and
(16:39):
looking at the samples, itreally reads that way, then a
publisher can be very optimisticbecause nonfiction has a direct
positioning in the market.
If you go back to whenChristopher Little, who was JK
Rowling's agent was trying topitch the first Harry Potter
book, a lot of people passed onit because they couldn't figure
out the place in the market.
(17:00):
So, at those meetings, theywould've said it's like magic
school for kids.
Where does that fit in?
How does that fit in?
There is no magic school forkids.
It didn't exist.
So, in a way that was thechallenge of that story until it
found its way to a Bloomsbury, aguy called Barry Cunningham, who
ended up buying it for verylittle money because he took a
(17:21):
chance on it.
And the comps are useful whenyou have strong comps.
But in the case of somebodypitching, I don't know even know
what the original pitch lookedlike, but I would love to be, go
back in time and find the queryletter that Christopher Little
sent to Barry Cunningham withthe manuscript for the first
Harry Potter book.
I wonder how he articulated it,but he probably might've said
(17:42):
Magic school for kids.
But more likely he said in thetradition of, the Hobbit or
other fantasy, maybe even alittle bit of like the lion,
which the wardrobe.
Allison (17:52):
Oh, I didn't realize it's a very Cinderella story.
Sam (17:57):
Yeah.
It is Because he's an orphanwhich is a very Disney trope.
Like the Lion King.
Their parents are always dead.
Allison (18:02):
Yeah,'cause how else can they become their own leader
and champion?
Oh, that's so interesting.
Okay, here's a question fromsomeone.
What is possible in an agentrelationship?
Sam (18:19):
Is a great question, but it's really open.
Can you gimme more?
Do they qualify at all?
Allison (18:23):
I can.
So this came from somebody whohad an agent and ended that
relationship and now has anotherone.
And it's just wondering what arethe words I need to say or need
to hear?
And in order to discern is thisagent right for me?
(18:45):
Because every agent isessentially pitching a business
relationship with an author.
But authors I talk to arethinking I wanna work with this
agent for the long haul.
I want them to help me grow mycareer.
And Sam, you are that kind ofAsian, but not everybody is.
Sam (19:03):
I wish I could be that way for all my clients, but
sometimes things happen.
There may be three, or there's ahandful of clients that I've had
for maybe two decades, which isthe span of my career.
Allison (19:13):
Holy crackers.
Sam (19:14):
But it's like in real life people come and go and the
different things happen.
Sometimes somebody wants to goin a direction where I don't
feel I am their best agent, forexample.
It's just life people, same waythat people get divorced, they
change over time.
Writers and agents change andtheir priorities and their
values, and theirpreoccupations, what they think
they can sell changes.
(19:34):
And nobody wants a great agentwho's your friend, who's no
longer interested in the kind ofstuff you're writing, right?
So many of these things canhappen.
But I would say when you'restarting out, and I think a lot,
this is all over the internet,so it's not just me.
If you do some homework saying,what is the first conversation
with an agent like that isinterested in representing you?
(19:54):
Then, I think the two mostimportant things, one is
communication style.
How are we gonna communicate?
If you consider what dating islike, more people on first dates
should probably talk about that.
But it's different.
You're texting, you're flirting,it's a different thing.
There's more of an emotionalthing there.
But if you talked about it, itmight avoid ghosting or strange
(20:16):
behaviors later on.
So with your agent, you shouldestablish that.
What is your preferredcommunication style?
And are we gonna be compatible?
What happens if you get worriedor anxious or panic or whatever
as an author?
How is your agent gonna respondto that?
How are you gonna communicatewith them?
So, I think that this isprobably not a secret, even
though I probably shouldn't besaying it in public.
(20:37):
But there's probably five to 10%of my clients where they have my
cell number and they can text meanytime.
And they've slid from being aprofessional relationship to
somebody that we're now on thisjourney together and we're
committed and it's like we arefriends.
So, that's really special that'smy favorite.
It doesn't always happen.
(20:57):
It can't happen to everybodybecause I can't be everybody's
friend and their agent at thesame time because it also adds
some complications in there.
But that is a very sweet spot,and that's when whenever there
is a problem, you tend toresolve it right away because
the idea of losing your friendand your client both is really
hard.
So the stakes are doubled.
But for anybody else, if youaren't communicating regularly
(21:18):
the agent relationship goes backto the normal styles of any
relationship communication.
Are you sharing your values?
Are you talking about what yourgoals are?
Are you in regular touch or hassomebody just fallen off the map
and is there a problem?
And what if it's the agent, whensomebody comes to me and they
say, Sam, I have an agent, butthey haven't talked to me in
about a year.
(21:39):
I'd say that you're probablyalready fired.
What agent doesn't talk to theirclient in a year?
There's something going onthere, so you need to figure
that one out.
I think I said there were twothings.
So, one is that communicationstyle and secondly, you need to
have especially in the beginningand going forward, strategy.
I always say an agent is like abusiness partner or a strategist
(22:00):
for an artist.
So, you are making art.
You wanna find a place in themarket for your work.
An agent's job is to help you dothat.
We are the perfect intermediarybetween what the talent wants to
create and what the market wantsto buy.
So, we will help you curate yourwork to make it more sellable
and we'll help massage thepitch.
(22:22):
If we can't get the work the waywe want, maybe we can get the
pitch right to get people tolook at it.
And often, if the book isdifficult, then it's our job to
work with you to make it lessdifficult, whatever that is to
find a home for it.
And part of that is if we don'tunderstand what's happening in
the market, we can't really helpyou.
We need to know what I'm alwaysin touch with editors.
(22:44):
What are you looking for?
And they're like, Sam, can youfind me this?
Can you find me that?
And I love those kinds ofmandates from editors because
I'm like, okay, I know what thatperson wants.
Let me find it.
And I will often share stuffwithin the agency with all the
agents saying, I talked to thiseditor looking for this.
And somebody will say, oh myGod, I have something that might
really, so then we're alwayssharing information internally,
which is another good sign of agood agency.
(23:06):
This is not something you wouldknow from your conversation with
your agent, but you can ask.
Which is, how does your agencydiffer from other agencies?
Not just you as in terms of yourstyle, but what is the culture
like at your agency?
How receptive and accessible andopen is it, and what are its
values?
Allison (23:24):
That's something that people don't talk about is the
agency culture.
Because an agency could functionlike Keller Williams, like every
realtor has a home base, andthat's where they keep the
administrative staff, butthey're really in competition
with each other.
Sam (23:44):
Yeah we try to avoid that.
I think one of my main goals isto have everybody
collaboratively working ratherthan competitively working.
Allison (23:52):
Right.
And that the difference and youcan kind of sniff that out when
the agency website says, if youdon't hear from me in 12 weeks,
go ahead and query someone else.
That is a big sparkler that youneed to pay attention to.
That's saying we don't talkinternally.
And I'm not gonna share if it'snot for me or if I just don't
(24:14):
get to it.
Which people find very rude.
The querying group.
just in what world do peoplejust not respond like in this
world.
Because there are too manypeople pitching and you can't
possibly.
Sam (24:29):
Well, in a way it's a very stark meritocracy.
You give us a good pitch.
That's exciting.
We'll get back to you.
We'll say, this sounds reallygood.
We'll take a look.
Send me the whole thing.
If it's not, that means youfailed to find the right person.
It doesn't mean that you failedwith your query.
That's why the research is soimportant, like I say.
Allison (24:45):
So that is, that's a little tip.
If you're looking for acollaborative culture, then look
for those tips.
Sam (24:54):
And I wanna go back to research publishers.
A publisher's marketplace doeshave a pass that's good for 24
or 48 hours, I can't remember.
So you can pay 10 bucks, getyour pass, do some digging on a
few agents.
And you should have all yourquestions written out so you can
just use it during that windowand then it expires.
But then you've got your data.
Allison (25:13):
You can reverse engineer what you know you're
paying attention and a lot ofthe agents that you're looking
at are brokering deals with thesame imprint.
Maybe look at that imprint andsee who else is pitching them,
which other agents haverelationship with that imprint
because that widens your agentlist.
(25:37):
I give my clients a list ofquestions or topics that they
need to listen for or ask agentslike here are 40 things that you
might need to listen for in thatfirst conversation with an
agent.
Which might be an hour, and Iknow sometimes you, Sam, get to
chit chat with people in person,which is I'm sure better.
(26:01):
You gotta get your questionsanswered.
But also the agent has to gettheir questions answered.
So I like this list that I made,of course I do.
But because it's a checklist,circle the topics that are
important to you and make surethat you're listening for them.
That way you won't at the endfeel like, oh, I should have
asked this, or I'm not surewhere they're coming from.
Sam (26:23):
Oh, having a checklist.
It's if you're trying toaccomplish anything in a phone
call.
Like if I have a toughnegotiation by phone or
conversation, I usually havenotes to make sure I don't miss
anything.
Because if you get emotionallyinvolved at any point.
It's easy to miss stuff.
The way that the brain works isreally it's a little
unpredictable.
(26:44):
So, having notes is just asimple thing to, to make.
Allison (26:47):
I mean, this is true for any relationship.
Even when you're going to thedoctor, they have seven minutes
with you and they walk in andsay, how are you?
And you say, I'm good.
And then you forget to tell themthat your back is killing you
because you already said you'regood.
And they're like, great, I'llput it in the computer and go
with God.
Bye.
(27:08):
So you do have to be prepared.
But wanna circle back tosomething you said.
You said that with an agent, youhave to have your marketing
vision, and then the agent alsohas a vision.
But I want to make sure thatpeople understand your agent is
not your marketing director.
(27:30):
You are your marketing director.
Your agent is not going to helpyou implement your marketing
plan.
They're going to say to you,what else are you doing?
Because not booking you forspeaking gigs.
You are.
They're not building yourwebsite.
You are.
Sam (27:48):
We refer people to other speaking agencies because we
don't wanna be that agency thattries to be everything.
We wanna be good at doing onething, which is finding great
books and putting them into themarket over and over.
My people ask me why did Ibecome an agent?
And I always tell people, Istudied English Lit and from the
kind of books that I read thatwere considered part of the
(28:09):
cannon, this would've been inthe late eighties when I was in
college.
I didn't see any of the storiesthat I was interested in or what
I wanted.
So by the time I became a youngpublisher and then an agent,
that's been one of my biggestthings to bring new voices to
the cannon.
And I said this at a conferenceand somebody said later on,
they're like, Sam, i'm soexcited to talk to you.
(28:30):
Apparently, you wanted to shootwriters out of a cannon, and I'm
like, it's not that cannon, andI'm not shooting writers out of
a cannon.
Allison (28:36):
Yeah.
Sam (28:36):
It's the cannon not the military device, but.
Allison (28:40):
Right.
Sam (28:41):
The canon of what makes literature, the body of work
that we all study and we use itto prove that we're civilized.
And that we're cultured andsophisticated and we have values
that are human values ratherthan basically killing each
other for stupid reasons.
So, the way that history wouldshow us if we looked at it
closely.
Allison (29:00):
Yeah.
Well, publishing is changing alot now and as the.
Sam (29:07):
Oh yeah.
Almost everybody's excited aboutunderrepresented voices.
It's just that it was somethingthat I was doing from the very
beginning, being somebody who isa bipoc person.
So, I was always conscious ofit.
When I was early in my career, Iremember meeting somebody for
coffee and one of our otherfriends said, you should talk to
Sam.
I think you'd be a great writer.
And I'm like, I'll meet anybodyfor coffee.
I'm that kind of person.
(29:27):
I'm just really open.
And I'm trying to share thosevalues with the agency now
through our socials and throughour branding and what the agency
does.
But I remember meeting thisperson for coffee and they were
my ancestry is originally Indiana long time ago, but I grew up
in the Caribbean and I moved toCanada.
And in her case she was born inCanada, and her family was from
India, but she'd never beenthere, but she's Indian.
(29:51):
And so, we talked about it and Isaid, your stories are so good.
You should really writesomething for me.
And she was so funny.
So, we ended up, she ended up, Igave her a challenge and I said,
gimme something funny and Ithink I can sell it'cause there
is nothing like this.
And so, she gave me chapter ortwo and we had another meeting.
And then I sold it and it cameout in both Canada and the us.
Riverhead published it in the USand McClellan Stewart in Canada,
(30:14):
and it's called On the OutsideLooking Indian.
And it established this writer'ssensibility and voice as a brown
woman in the western world here.
And she ended up being a writeron Schitt's Creek, which then
became a really popular show,even though it was originally
just Canadian.
But of course it becameinternational when it blew up on
Netflix.
And now she's in LA writing fora bunch of other things.
(30:36):
Did I add something to thecanon?
I added a voice that I thoughtwas interesting and I was
successful in getting it intotwo North American publishers,
and the book is out there, itstill sells.
I will help launch somebody'scareer because they had a job
before that and now they'reliving a dream of being a writer
full-time, which almost neverhappens.
So, people ask me, why am Idoing this?
(30:57):
That's the kind of story that Iwanna say times 20 or times 30
or times 40.
I fail almost as many times as Isucceed, which is unfortunate,
but it shows you how difficultthis thing that I'm doing is.
There are a lot of agents whowon't even talk about the canon
or about underrepresented voicesor about changing culture.
What they're gonna talk about ismaking money, and they're gonna
(31:19):
say, you need to have theseboxes checked before you even
talk to me.
Otherwise I'm not interested.
And we never wanna be that kindof an agency.
But there are a lot of them likethat.
And if you're, if you like thatstyle, then you get your
homework done, get the boxeschecked, and contact them.
And you'll probably getrepresentation because there's a
good fit there.
So, the fit is really important.
Allison (31:39):
Mm-hmm.
Sam (31:40):
Which I keep coming back to.
Allison (31:42):
In the same way, I have lived now as an adult in six or
seven houses.
And in three different states.
Don't ask, it's a longer story.
But in each city, I've lived inat least two houses.
And I have a relationship withmy realtor she's not my like
(32:03):
life coach.
She doesn't help me come andpaint the kitchen.
There are things she'll say,she'll come by and be like I can
sell this, you need to fix thedeck and the kitchen maybe go
ahead and put in hardwoods.
In the same way, I think agentscan run the gamut.
Maybe you have an agent wholoves to work with you from the
(32:26):
kernel of an idea.
And then, there are the agentsthat are similar to like the
realtors of selling on Sunset.
Yeah, anybody can sell a newlyrenovated condo on Sunset, but
that's a particular type.
So, I think.
Sam (32:45):
It is a good comparison is literary agents or film and TV
agents versus normal agents.
Like recruiters, people that arehelping you find work or real
estate.
The thing is, almost everybodywants to buy or sell a house
you're looking at maybe even ifthey can't afford it, a hundred
percent of the population wouldlove to be able to buy or sell
the house.
(33:05):
Buying is a difficult part.
You have enough money to do it,but once you start, then you are
buying and selling because thennow you're in the market.
In terms of recruiting, it's alittle more competitive.
The companies have to be lookingfor your skills and your
knowledge base before arecruiter will contact you.
So, now it's a smaller part ofthe market.
By the time you get to what wedo in terms of books, there are
(33:28):
only a couple of hundredliterary agents in the world.
We are more rare than brainsurgeons, so we're talking about
less than 1% of the populationversus a hundred percent for the
real estate agents.
So, you can get a sense of whatthey're doing.
But until you're in this worldas a writer and having to engage
and find an agent.
One of the great disappointmentsthat I have is how many people
(33:49):
can't be bothered and they don'teven try.
They self publish their books,sells 300 copies, and then it's
so sad because if only somebodyknown about it, they might have
had another chance.
So I would say, go ahead.
Self-publish as a last resort.
You've tried, you can make acase that you've really made an
effort.
But you know, it's sad whensometimes people come to me with
a great story.
And then I'm like, this isgreat.
(34:10):
Who have you shown it to?
And then, I'm interested inlooking at it.
They're like, oh, it's selfpublished on Amazon.
And I'm like, wah, wah, wah...
it's like, well, what do I do?
Like I can't explain to thepublisher, that it's already had
a shot at being published andit's got a cover and it's got an
ISBN number and it alreadyexists and it's being reviewed
on good reads or whatever.
But the corollary to that is, Imust said caloric, but the
(34:35):
corollary, the, Yeah.
The kind of other side to that.
Let's just put it that way.
Allison (34:39):
Yeah.
Sam (34:40):
The other side to that is if you're self-publish and it's
part of a market segment inbooks and entertainment that's
trending like romantic orhorror, and people are excited
about it.
That means it's already sellingand editors are looking now more
and more.
They're really drilling deepdown into the market of
(35:03):
self-published books when thebooks are selling.
And then they'll come after you.
And I've seen a number of dealsrecently where people will get
seven figures for expandingtheir bestselling self-published
ebook, and maybe audio and printon demand into a big five deal
with one of the big publishers.
And they're gonna bring out aseries now and expand it to be a
trilogy or quartet of books orwhatever.
(35:27):
So, And then of course there'sprobably interest from film and
TV if it's trending becausethey're looking at what's hot
too.
Everybody's culture is aninteresting game because you, if
you're in with a zeitgeist,you're gonna get a lot of
attention, and the moment thatyou're out, then everything
stops.
And then I tell my authors whenthe attention stops on their
book, it's time to start thenext one because there's no
(35:48):
point being naval and feelingsad.
What did I do wrong?
It was never gonna last forever.
Allison (35:53):
What do authors need to know or do in order to land an
agent considering thateverything's changing?
Sam (36:01):
So, that's a big question and what I was trying to say the
first time, is if you're writingfiction.
You should write what'simportant to you because your
conviction, your talent thestuff that preoccupies you as an
artist is if you're writingliterary fiction, that's really
all you have.
You shouldn't be concerned aboutthe market.
You should be concerned aboutwriting a great book that is
(36:23):
using the most of your talent.
And there are a number of agentswho are for example, connected
to many of the MFA programswhere people are working on
their novels and testing their,the limits of their talent and
pushing themselves to with theircraft.
And that stuff, I thinkliterature by definition has to
exist outside of the kind ofzeitgeist or trending.
(36:47):
The trending stuff is gonna bemore commercial fiction or
things in nonfiction that arebooming.
One of of the big thingsrecently in terms of nonfiction,
probably for the a decade now,has been self-help and
self-improvement.
You know, a number of publishershave created lifestyle imprints
where, how do we live longer?
How do we live better?
We look at bestsellers likePeter Atias Outlive, which has
(37:10):
been on the list since it cameout.
We have an aging population whodoesn't wanna spend the last
part of their lives in bed,unable to actually enjoy the
fact that they're still alive.
So, there's all this stuff abouteating protein, strength
training.
There's all this stuff that'svery trendy and there's a bunch
of stuff because I think a lotof it works.
And so, the question is peoplewanna know, how do I keep the
(37:32):
quality of life longer?
That's a very simple thing thatany publisher or any kind of
producer of media would say,people wanna do this.
Let's figure out how to give itto them.
If you're writing in that space,you're always gonna be of
interest, especially if you haveexpertise and knowledge that
nobody else has, and that's whatDr.
Peter ATT did was he had aclinic and he did it.
(37:54):
So that stuff is always gonna bethere.
I noticed that more and morepeople are bringing, this is
also part of a trend for a whilenow.
People are bringing neuroscienceinto behaviors so that we can,
there's a whole bunch of theneuroscience of X or Y or
whatever.
It's hard for me to explain itacross the broad spectrum of
types of books you might beworking on.
(38:14):
But I do wanna highlight thatnonfiction and fiction are very
different in how you positionthem as a writer.
And one of my areas of expertiseis memoir, and I'm really good
at looking at what we might beable to do with your story to
make it more sellable.
But outside of that, I reallyfeel that if you are writing
something in the literary sideor even in fiction in general
(38:36):
that isn't really commercial,but something that you have to
write that could be reallyimportant to the world.
When you look at you know, whenMary Shelley wrote Frankenstein,
she was trying to write ametaphor for how bad her life
had gone so far by marrying abully, you know, perceived as
Shelly.
And the idea of how I guess themonster is really just the
(38:58):
monster in culture.
It's just a monster that we allhave to deal with and I think in
some ways it's a female monster.
But trying to find its way, avoice.
And that kind of fiction,there's always gonna be room for
that because it's people tellinga very personal story, but using
metaphor, using their talent tomake it bigger, somehow make it
universal without it beingmemoir.
Allison (39:20):
So, just to boil that down, you're saying that
publishing is changing, but toconnect with your core message
or your core belief, put moretrust in yourself.
Sam (39:37):
You have to, as an artist.
Sometimes I use, I don't use theword writer because I think this
is where all art is connected.
Like whether you're a musicianor a visual artist or a
playwright or a novelist, it'sabout finding your voice and
making a work of art that youwant to ideally last.
You Know that, but it has tocome from somewhere within you.
(39:58):
And a lot of what I think thetraining of artists is about is
finding that voice and findingthat unique thing that you bring
to the world.
It's funny'cause you could arguethat for business too.
If somebody wants to launch ausually they have to do the same
kind of work that an artistwould do to find what is their
offering.
What is gonna be the one thingthat they're gonna give the
world that nobody else could?
Allison (40:18):
Right.
You have to really want.
And I would say too, don't gointo a cave and just write your
book.
If you have an expertise, don'tsave your best content for the
book because you still have toshow that there's a market for
(40:38):
it.
You have to be sharing it.
And I think that people think,no, that's gonna go in the book,
so I can't talk about it.
You can talk about it, but it'snot of a book yet.
Sam (40:47):
You should talk about it because that's a test to
publishers.
If you've talked about somethingand it's gone viral, they'll say
well, let's do the book.
And now's the time.
You've just made a case for themarket.
Allison (40:55):
Exactly.
So don't wait.
Don't save your best story forthe essay that you think is
gonna go in your memoir ofessays.
Maybe talk about it, make avideo.
It's really fine.
You don't have to have perfectlighting.
I am in a basement and this is awindow that is lighting me.
(41:16):
I just happen to have my deskfaced toward a window.
This is nothing fancy.
I don't even have a ring lightright now.
Sam, different question pivot.
What is a book you're lovingright now?
Sam (41:32):
You mean a client book or in the market?
Allison (41:35):
I'm saying a book recommendation that I could link
to give people what's in yourreading stack.
And it can be a client book ornot a client book.
Sam (41:46):
Let me find something that there's a couple.
This is an interesting book.
It's called How to Survive aBear Attack.
Claire Cameron, and she's aCanadian writer.
This is published in the US andCanada, which is something that
I always admire when a Canadiancan cross the border.
It may be more difficult nowthan ever, but for culture it's
(42:07):
still fairly easy.
And if you have a great story,I'm enjoying it.
And Claire Cameron is abrilliant writer.
We're lucky in Canada that somany writers are.
They've trained and they'vefocused on the poetry, the kind
of beautiful language.
And then they've learned how totell a story on top of that.
That's the same for people likeMargaret Atwood and Michael and
(42:28):
Dace, who started off as poets.
And then it's part of the wholeCanadian tradition, Leonard
Cohen, so all the Canadiansstart before they started
writing novels.
And anyway, so I'm reallyenjoying it.
On the commercial side, this isa book also published in both
Canada and the us, anotherCanadian writer, and it's called
Detective Aunty.
(42:48):
So in the Indian culture youcall everybody who's a older
woman, an auntie.
And it's usma, usma Jin.
So I'm enjoying that for, that'sjust fun.
Cozy mystery with a lot ofIndian stuff.
And if you like chai and youlike Indian sweets, it's all
there.
Allison (43:03):
Get it and we'll have those links in the show notes to
bookshop.org.
Sam (43:08):
They're both published in both Canada and the us.
So that's always exciting to mewhen somebody, I'm looking at it
because I do represent a fairnumber of Canadian writers.
I can't get them all in the us,but I try.
And i'm representing more andmore over time American writers
that just come to me and they'relike, I love your stuff.
Can I work with you?
And the borders are irrelevant.
Allison (43:28):
Your agency is US and Canada, so you.
Sam (43:32):
Yeah.
And we just hired an Americanagent, Matt Belford from, he
left another agency in New Yorkcalled New Leaf, and he's a
great new agent for us.
It's always a mix at our agency,the rights factory, of having
people that have come in andtrained as assistants that we
bring up and give them a chanceto be agents and mentor them.
And then we have people likeMatt that come in with over a
(43:54):
decade of experience.
So, I'm excited to see, he'salready brought some clients and
we're doing,
Allison (43:58):
Wow.
Sam (43:58):
He is doing deals already, so it's exciting.
Allison (44:00):
That's really cool.
What is something you wantreaders and authors to know that
if you could take someone by theshoulders and just be like, do
this?
What's something that peopleshould do today that if you
could take a writer aside andjust whisper to them.
(44:21):
Like, know this one thing, dothis one thing.
That they can, you know, otherthan you can do it.
We understand that, people wantyour special sauce.
Sam (44:34):
I think the one advice I can give is that almost nobody
knows how good a book has to bein terms of the quality before
you find an agent.
Because even if we're willing towork with you, we want it to be
90% plus there.
And what a lot of people don'tunderstand is what is 90%?
So there's a lot of crap, likemillions of self-published books
(44:57):
that are just crap.
Nobody's ever gonna care aboutthem.
People halfheartedly wrotesomething, they couldn't get any
interest.
They put it up.
That's probably good for them.
There's also a number of booksthat never, were gonna have a
big market anyway.
It's probably best that theyself-published.
But outside of that, if you arepassionate about your book and
you think it's important and youthink it's a great story for
whatever reasons, and you shouldhave some justification for
(45:18):
that.
You can't be delusional.
So you should have either you'rein a writing community or a
series of writing workshops, itdoesn't even have to be an MFA
in creative writing, but thathelps.
It could just be some writingcourses or you have a mentor or
you have an editor that'sworking with you who has tested
their work against the marketand can encourage you.
And I tell people it takes avillage to write a book and it
(45:41):
takes a bigger village topublish a book.
But in terms of the writing youneed to have beta readers.
You need to have.
Your friends around you and youneed to test it with them.
There is a great quote that Iread recently by Miranda July in
writing all fours, and she saidthat she knew exactly what she
wanted the book to be, so it'snot like it randomly became this
(46:03):
book about sex after menopause.
She and one of her friends wouldmeet once a week and talk about
exactly what she was doing.
She had a strategy, she wasthinking about the book in the
market.
And she wanted it to besuccessful from the ground up.
Planned it that way.
So sometimes if you have, butyou you can't do that in your
head.
(46:24):
You need to have people aroundyou that believe in what you're
doing and that reinforce you andmaybe sometimes criticize you
and say, I think that's wrong.
If you look this up, I'm surethere was an interview somewhere
online where she talked abouthow much strategy there was, and
that's something that is reallyrare.
I guess what I'm trying to sayis she was an experienced writer
and she put the strategy in,even if you're brand new, you
need to know that your book isgood enough that if you share
(46:46):
it.
People are gonna look at it andsay, this is actually really
good, I'm interested in workingwith you because I think I can
show this to some publishers.
When you're reaching an agent,that's the number one thing that
you have to ask yourself.
Is this gonna be good enough forthe agent to wanna share it to
their friends at Penguin RandomHouse or Harper Collins or Simon
and Schuster?
So that's basically what it is.
Even if there's potential there,they might say, you came close,
(47:07):
I'm really sorry, but are wegonna have to a few hours out of
our day to write you a critique?
No.
So, usually people criticizeagents for saying, sorry, this
isn't right for me.
We don't have time to give youany more than that.
That's the best we can do.
That's if you get an answer.
Allison (47:24):
Right.
If you get an answer.
I think the value of gettinginput from a trusted source, not
from your sister.
She's not a writer, she's notgonna be able to help you.
But get input and sometimes youhave to just you're mulling in
your head and you've gotta makea decision A or B, does the plot
(47:44):
go this way or that way?
Or do the chapters getstructured this way or that way?
If you have someone coming alongwith you, even if you're in a
community, you can get a quickinput and then go, oh, okay.
They understand what I'm doing,so I trust that they said, go
with the you know, thread A.
Sam (48:04):
Even if you're not in a writing workshop or whatever, a
critique group is reallyvaluable.
Because one, writing is veryisolating.
You're lonely.
You can't write and haveconversations with other people
at the same time you're alone.
So, it gives you a community,which is really important.
Two, it gives you disciplinebecause you promised a deadline
(48:24):
to the group and now you gottadeliver.
So, now, even if you're a littlehungover, you gotta deliver the
chapter that you promised.
And third, it gives you feedbackby people that are qualified.
Like you said, your sister mightnot be the best person to help,
even though they might be reallyencouraging.
So, you want those three things,and every writing critique group
will give that to you.
And the fourth thing that I tellpeople is try to belong to a
(48:45):
critique group where everybody'sa better writer than you.
But they love you anyway.
Because then you're really gonnapush your work, you're gonna get
a lot out of it.
And then hopefully you're gonnagive them something back too.
Allison (48:55):
That's perfect.
Thank you Sam, so much.
And tell everyone where they canfind you and.
Sam (49:01):
The company is the Rights Factory.
So, it's therightsfactory.com,all one word.
And I do have some socials.
I never use them, but so go tothe agency.
I would say if you are curiousabout what we're doing, add our
Instagram, which is at theRights factory.
Then you can see we try to postsomething daily about new books
that are out press for ourbooks, things that are happening
to our authors, shortlists andawards, which is something
(49:24):
that's happening more and more,which is we're very grateful
for.
And new agents and what they'relooking for.
We're constantly, or where we'regonna be.
I was at the San Miguelconference earlier this year and
I, and people saw that and I, weposted I was gonna be in Mexico,
which I loved.
Follow us and see what we'redoing and if something resonates
with you, you might say, oh,these guys might be good for us
for something.
Allison (49:43):
And it offer a dozen agents, it's a big agency.
Sam (49:47):
Yeah.
We're growing.
There's 16 agents now.
Yeah.
Allison (49:50):
Yeah, that's quite a lot.
Thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom and your patience
and your guidance with me andwith everyone listening who
wants their book to be in theworld and be a success.
It matters what you do and weall appreciate you.
Sam (50:11):
Thanks, Allison.
You know, one of the lines Ilearned early in my career is a
professional writer is anamateur who never gave up.
Allison (50:18):
That is a mic drop moment.
Boom, people, I can't think ofany better way to sign off.
If you like and appreciate thisepisode and especially Sam Hyatt
and genius, please stop and.
(50:38):
Share a review.
Just scroll down in your phone,click the five stars.
And if you think is this a fourstar?
If four star, email me.
Listen the algorithm enjoys thefive stars.
If there's something that youfeel like is missing, email me
and I will deliver it.
In the meantime, give us areview and share this with
(51:03):
someone who needs it because youare the writers, and the people
who should be writers and theauthors who are already out
there and they want their booksto continue.
They all need support.
We are in it together.
There are no competitors.
There's only teamwork.
There are only peers and who'sgonna help but other authors.
(51:26):
I will see you next week.
Sam (51:28):
Thanks so much, Allison, for having me on.
Appreciate it.
Nobody knows how good a book has to be in terms of the
(00:03):
quality before you find anagent.
Because even if we're willing towork with you, we want it to be
90% plus there.
And what a lot of people don'tunderstand is what is 90%?
Allison (00:39):
Today on the author's edge, we're pulling back the
curtain on what agents actuallylook for and what gets your
pitch shining from the slushpile.
What gets your pitch noticedright away in a matter of
seconds.
Sam Hiyate is here, CEO, andfounder of the Rights Factory
(00:59):
based in New York City andToronto.
And has 16 agents who are eagerfor your pitch.
So, if you've ever wondered whatgoes on inside the agents inbox,
or how to craft a book proposaland a query letter that stands
out, this episode is for you.
Sam tells us exactly what he'slooking for.
(01:24):
The biggest mistakes authorsmake and why the market is
changing and how you need tochange with it.
Let's get into it.
The big question and my clients,I have a membership.
I teach a course bestsellerlaunch school.
And then I have a monthlymembership.
(01:46):
It's$37 a month, it's nothingbut people come and they get
access to me twice a month.
And I give them tools like Ijust talked to you about.
And they have questions for you.
And they're all about you know,very directly which is
hilarious.
I was like, what do you want meto say, exactly?
(02:08):
So, here's the what they wannaknow.
Most pitches, we understand getdeleted in 30 seconds because
most of the pitches that getsent to you are not informed by
the standards.
We understand that remove 90% ofwhat you get sent'cause I'm sure
(02:30):
it's grandiose and notcompelling.
Of the 10% that are left, whatdo agents actually scan for and
what makes you stop?
Sam (02:48):
That's gonna be different for every agent, and that's why
it's worth doing your research.
So, what I'm scanning for is whyare you reaching out to me?
One, is this something I'mactually looking for?
Two, are there key words thatreally resonate with me?
Does it feel like it's a funnystory?
Heartwarming, transformative?
There are some things that work,especially for me I'm not so
(03:12):
good with overcoming verydifficult stories like people
that talk about their years ofdrug addiction or alcohol
addiction or whatever, and howtough that is.
It's hard for me to even go inthat place.
I live in this kind of beautifulworld of books and most of it,
even when people do have adversecircumstances, I wanna feel like
(03:33):
I can be there with them.
And if it's something that goesbeyond.
A kind of level that I know orunderstand or resonates with me.
I'm like, this isn't right forme.
I know there are agents who haveovercome alcoholism and
addiction and other kinds ofthings like cancers and other
health conditions.
And there's a lot of storiesaround those and it's better to
find somebody that will resonatewith.
(03:55):
So almost all health relatedstuff, mental illness.
Even though, I feel likedepression and anxiety and
A-A-D-H-D and someneurodiversity are so common now
that.
Allison (04:07):
Yeah.
Sam (04:07):
I can't really put that aside'cause that would leave
nothing left if we go there.
So, my biggest books are storiesof relationships.
Often there's a centralrelationship, the film club was
a father and son Moore was abouta husband and wife figuring
something out.
I've done a bunch of other ones.
I'm pitching a bunch now, andthat relationship is important,
(04:29):
but it doesn't have to be aboutthe relationship.
It could be just about thejourney.
But again, I like it to beentertaining, funny, a little
sad.
I have to feel moved by it.
And every agent is gonna responddifferently to a pitch, and
that's why you have to do yourhomework and try a bunch of
them.
I don't know if that answers thequestion, but I'm happy to go
on.
Allison (04:48):
Well, I think what I'm asking you to do is first of
all, anyone who wants to querySam, yes, you should do that
because.
Sam (04:56):
I'm one of the few people that has my email right, on the
site.
Yeah.
I'm open to everybody.
Allison (05:00):
The cheese you definitely like cat's, pajamas
you.
If he's right for you, youshould query him.
What I find from people who youknow, send me questions is how
do I really find out what anagent is looking for in general?
And also there's very little,there's not like a match.com for
(05:25):
agents.
There's manuscript wishlist, butmanuscript wishlist will list
things like, I'm looking for amemoir.
Thank you.
I'm looking for long walks onthe beach as well.
But like, how can the emergingauthor really understand what an
agent is looking for?
(05:46):
Because there's so little there.
I tell them, look at theirsocials.
But still.
Sam (05:54):
I don't have any socials.
My personal socials arerebroadcasting my authors.
So, I try to have a personallife so our agency is my social
media outlet and the agencypromotes all of our clients and
all of our agents equally.
So, that's not gonna work forme.
I think you've given me an ideawhich is I need to put on my
personal page on the website.
(06:15):
A list of some of my biggestbooks and how you as somebody
who doesn't know me, could usethat to infer whether your book
might be right for me or not.
What it was about maybe my top10 biggest books that captured
my imagination that sold me,whether it was a good pitch or
bad pitch.
There was something about thestory, there was something about
(06:36):
the author that kind of got mein there and excited to work
with them.
And I think that's the part thatI think it's hard for writers
who are querying to understandis ultimately you're trying to
get an agent very excited aboutthe project and if the query is
lackluster.
If the proposal is lackluster.
(06:57):
If their writing is lackluster,it's not gonna happen.
It has to be the best you cando.
And only then should you try tofind somebody to say, Hey, I
have this really specialproject.
Basically, that's all a query isI have something really great.
It's just a very distilled andbeautifully condensed and
efficient way of pitching yourproject and yourself.
I think I mentioned in one ofour talks, Allison, recently,
(07:18):
that conferences are a great wayfor me to meet people because I
get to meet them outside of thequery and then they can pitch me
and I can ask them questions.
Some of these conferences arepretty crazy where you get five
minutes to pitch an agent, butit's worth it because if I like
it, I'll say there's somethinghere that I think is interesting
for me.
Because it's interactive.
When a query comes to me, it'sjust a one-sided communication.
(07:40):
It's a pitch to me, and I get tosay yes or no, or maybe.
But if somebody's in front of meand we're talking, and if I like
something about what they'resaying and it's unclear, I can
say do you mean this or that?
Do you mean does this story gohere?
Is this really the kind of maincentral conflict in case they
missed it?
Or is this the main obstacle inthe story that you have to
overcome?
Whether it's a memoir or anarrative story, or if it's some
(08:04):
other kind of book, like a howto or self-help or advice.
Then I wanna know how theirexpertise connects with the
material.
So there's always a bunch ofthings depending on the category
and the person in front of methat I can ask that I can't ask
in a query.
And sometimes we don't wannarespond to a query by saying do
(08:25):
you mean this or that?
Because then we're gonna havesomebody that gets all excited.
This agent responded to me, andthen it's a flurry of activity
and I don't wanna give somebodya heart attack.
Allison (08:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Because they're like, oh, Ifound the one.
No, the agent that you'repitching doesn't have to become
a believer in your five partmethod.
They need to be excited that youknow that this method is needed
in the world, that there's proofof it.
(08:55):
And that they're like, oh, thankheavens, I really like this but
you are not trying to win themover as a student.
Or don't you wanna learn moreabout 18th Century England or
don't you wanna also read thisbook?
As a super fan, it's the agentis salesperson who loves books.
(09:20):
You, guys could be sellingpharmaceuticals if you wanted.
You have hearts of gold and ouragents on earth because you are
working in the book industry.
So check one.
That's why we love you.
But also, if I were an agent,which I'm not, and for those
people who keep sending me theirmanuscripts, please stop.
(09:41):
Just send them to Sam.
I would want people to realize,stop trying to persuade me that
your perspective is the one Ishould have persuade me that
your perspective is needed inthe world and that there's proof
of it that's different.
And I wanna go back to somethingyou said that surprised me too.
(10:02):
You said that when someone sendsyou a query letter, which for
those of you who are new topublishing a query letter is a
pitch letter.
It's like the cover letter of aresume, and it needs to be super
juicy and worth reading.
It is a distillation of yourbook.
(10:23):
It's like the balsamic glaze.
It's boiled down.
It's concentrate.
And also confusingly query isalso a verb.
So when you query an agent withyour query letter, you see how
stupid this is.
You'd think that in publishingwe could come up with something
else.
Sam (10:40):
It is a little redundant.
Allison (10:42):
It's silly.
But what you said is you wannaknow why someone queried you.
That's often the hardest part ofquerying because there's so
little that someone could sayother than because of what you
put on your website, which isthat's not even helpful to you.
Because you said you likenonfiction.
(11:04):
That's not helpful.
Or they've gotta become adigital analyst.
Go to publisher's Marketplace,put together your pattern of
deals.
Sam (11:19):
It is like you're working for the FBI as an analyst and
you're profiling somebody likethis is a serial killer.
We have to figure out what theirprocess is motivation?
Allison (11:29):
And that's what I do one on one with my clients'cause
they're like, I don't know howto do what I do.
Sam (11:35):
I'm not implying that agents are killers.
I'm just saying it's the samekind of profiling work.
Allison (11:39):
It's the same as anything when you do a little
background research on, evenwhen you're applying for a job.
Oh, I know that they're lookingfor this, or they seem to
looking for authors who havethis in common.
But you have to make the leapbecause agents are too busy to
(12:02):
update their entire website oncea week or even once a month to
say, this is what I'm lookingfor.
And I've looked at hundreds ofagent pages and none of them are
truly helpful because they saythings like, I'm looking for a
sweeping family saga.
Thank you.
(12:22):
I also am looking for someonewho's kind and funny.
It's just not helpful.
So, the author themselves has totake a leap, like a gut feeling.
And actually say to the agent, Ireally like your advocacy for
foster kids aging outta thesystem and because of that, I am
(12:46):
querying you with my 62,000 wordpsychology book, which is this.
At least that as the agent.
I would be like, oh, okay, nowI'm ready.
Now I understand.
Sam (13:01):
They've looked me up.
They found something personalabout me.
Allison (13:04):
For you listening, that intro of Here's why I'm quering
you, that was one sense.
You get to the point, we do notneed to know your life story in
that first, that is an intro.
And all you're doing is sayinghere's why.
Now get ready.
(13:24):
Now, Sam, what do you think ismissing?
You see a lot of pitches.
What makes you instantly payattention?
What do you think is missingfrom most pitches.
Sam (13:36):
So assuming that they found a reason to query me over any
other agent.
Allison (13:42):
Yeah.
Sam (13:43):
Whatever that is.
It's usually based on my list,that there's something that
resonated with them about one ofthe books that I sold.
And so they've got that, they'vegot a good description later on
of their story.
But somewhere in between, i'dlike to get some comparables.
I'd like to know where this bookfits in the market.
And that's really hard becausemost people, it's not their job.
Their job is to write a greatbook.
(14:04):
Their job isn't to figure outwhere does my book fit into this
big market of books, and it's amassive market.
If you go on Amazon and startedlooking at all the categories
and all the subcategories andwhich books are the best
sellers?
Like when I say the market,that's what I mean, the whole
market.
And I guess a way of limiting itthat might be really useful is
(14:25):
imagine now instead of Amazon,which is infinite.
That you're walking into a localbookstore and there's all those
sections and categories andthere's the best sellers table
and there's new this and newthat.
And what you wanna say is whatthe comparables is about is you
telling me, saying, imagine ifyou went to this section in the
bookstore.
(14:47):
You found this book and then youwalked over to another section,
you found that book?
My book is like those two booksin those two sections together.
Some of the themes and storiesand characters, journeys and
situations in, if you combinethem, you'll get my book.
And you never really should useone book because if it's already
written, why are you comparingyour book to just my book is
(15:07):
that book exactly.
I changed the name of thecharacters and change a few
things.
Nobody's gonna care.
So you have to say, it'soriginally enough that I can't
quantify it with one, one book.
Or even better, I'm alwayssaying use really recent things
like television and movies sothat we can get a sense of it.
If it doesn't already exist, andoften those things come from
(15:28):
books anyway.
So if you can use somethingabout the actor or how.
Something that caught yourattention about the adaptation
of it, use that because it'sstill based on a book, but why
not make it more kind of snazzy,by talking about the actor.
Allison (15:47):
So, you're saying present it, not it's like this
book that was published fiveyears ago, but it's new.
Sam (15:55):
That would work for something like a book that maybe
was published 30 or 40 yearsago, especially if you had a
twist on it.
You could use that.
This bestselling book, but withthis twist on it.
Then you explain the twist andwhy you're the best person,
because you know that twist.
You've lived that twist so whatqualifies you to give us, to add
that twist to it?
Allison (16:13):
And this is true for fiction as well, right?
Sam (16:17):
Absolutely.
Fiction is much harder thannonfiction because nonfiction
has data and once you've got thecategory and maybe the
subcategory.
If you find the rightcomparables, that's even more
valuable than just figuring outwhere it's placed in the market.
Because it gives you sales data.
So, if you think that this bookis gonna be like that book and
(16:39):
looking at the samples, itreally reads that way, then a
publisher can be very optimisticbecause nonfiction has a direct
positioning in the market.
If you go back to whenChristopher Little, who was JK
Rowling's agent was trying topitch the first Harry Potter
book, a lot of people passed onit because they couldn't figure
out the place in the market.
(17:00):
So, at those meetings, theywould've said it's like magic
school for kids.
Where does that fit in?
How does that fit in?
There is no magic school forkids.
It didn't exist.
So, in a way that was thechallenge of that story until it
found its way to a Bloomsbury, aguy called Barry Cunningham, who
ended up buying it for verylittle money because he took a
(17:21):
chance on it.
And the comps are useful whenyou have strong comps.
But in the case of somebodypitching, I don't know even know
what the original pitch lookedlike, but I would love to be, go
back in time and find the queryletter that Christopher Little
sent to Barry Cunningham withthe manuscript for the first
Harry Potter book.
I wonder how he articulated it,but he probably might've said
(17:42):
Magic school for kids.
But more likely he said in thetradition of, the Hobbit or
other fantasy, maybe even alittle bit of like the lion,
which the wardrobe.
Allison (17:52):
Oh, I didn't realize it's a very Cinderella story.
Sam (17:57):
Yeah.
It is Because he's an orphanwhich is a very Disney trope.
Like the Lion King.
Their parents are always dead.
Allison (18:02):
Yeah,'cause how else can they become their own leader
and champion?
Oh, that's so interesting.
Okay, here's a question fromsomeone.
What is possible in an agentrelationship?
Sam (18:19):
Is a great question, but it's really open.
Can you gimme more?
Do they qualify at all?
Allison (18:23):
I can.
So this came from somebody whohad an agent and ended that
relationship and now has anotherone.
And it's just wondering what arethe words I need to say or need
to hear?
And in order to discern is thisagent right for me?
(18:45):
Because every agent isessentially pitching a business
relationship with an author.
But authors I talk to arethinking I wanna work with this
agent for the long haul.
I want them to help me grow mycareer.
And Sam, you are that kind ofAsian, but not everybody is.
Sam (19:03):
I wish I could be that way for all my clients, but
sometimes things happen.
There may be three, or there's ahandful of clients that I've had
for maybe two decades, which isthe span of my career.
Allison (19:13):
Holy crackers.
Sam (19:14):
But it's like in real life people come and go and the
different things happen.
Sometimes somebody wants to goin a direction where I don't
feel I am their best agent, forexample.
It's just life people, same waythat people get divorced, they
change over time.
Writers and agents change andtheir priorities and their
values, and theirpreoccupations, what they think
they can sell changes.
(19:34):
And nobody wants a great agentwho's your friend, who's no
longer interested in the kind ofstuff you're writing, right?
So many of these things canhappen.
But I would say when you'restarting out, and I think a lot,
this is all over the internet,so it's not just me.
If you do some homework saying,what is the first conversation
with an agent like that isinterested in representing you?
(19:54):
Then, I think the two mostimportant things, one is
communication style.
How are we gonna communicate?
If you consider what dating islike, more people on first dates
should probably talk about that.
But it's different.
You're texting, you're flirting,it's a different thing.
There's more of an emotionalthing there.
But if you talked about it, itmight avoid ghosting or strange
(20:16):
behaviors later on.
So with your agent, you shouldestablish that.
What is your preferredcommunication style?
And are we gonna be compatible?
What happens if you get worriedor anxious or panic or whatever
as an author?
How is your agent gonna respondto that?
How are you gonna communicatewith them?
So, I think that this isprobably not a secret, even
though I probably shouldn't besaying it in public.
(20:37):
But there's probably five to 10%of my clients where they have my
cell number and they can text meanytime.
And they've slid from being aprofessional relationship to
somebody that we're now on thisjourney together and we're
committed and it's like we arefriends.
So, that's really special that'smy favorite.
It doesn't always happen.
(20:57):
It can't happen to everybodybecause I can't be everybody's
friend and their agent at thesame time because it also adds
some complications in there.
But that is a very sweet spot,and that's when whenever there
is a problem, you tend toresolve it right away because
the idea of losing your friendand your client both is really
hard.
So the stakes are doubled.
But for anybody else, if youaren't communicating regularly
(21:18):
the agent relationship goes backto the normal styles of any
relationship communication.
Are you sharing your values?
Are you talking about what yourgoals are?
Are you in regular touch or hassomebody just fallen off the map
and is there a problem?
And what if it's the agent, whensomebody comes to me and they
say, Sam, I have an agent, butthey haven't talked to me in
about a year.
(21:39):
I'd say that you're probablyalready fired.
What agent doesn't talk to theirclient in a year?
There's something going onthere, so you need to figure
that one out.
I think I said there were twothings.
So, one is that communicationstyle and secondly, you need to
have especially in the beginningand going forward, strategy.
I always say an agent is like abusiness partner or a strategist
(22:00):
for an artist.
So, you are making art.
You wanna find a place in themarket for your work.
An agent's job is to help you dothat.
We are the perfect intermediarybetween what the talent wants to
create and what the market wantsto buy.
So, we will help you curate yourwork to make it more sellable
and we'll help massage thepitch.
(22:22):
If we can't get the work the waywe want, maybe we can get the
pitch right to get people tolook at it.
And often, if the book isdifficult, then it's our job to
work with you to make it lessdifficult, whatever that is to
find a home for it.
And part of that is if we don'tunderstand what's happening in
the market, we can't really helpyou.
We need to know what I'm alwaysin touch with editors.
(22:44):
What are you looking for?
And they're like, Sam, can youfind me this?
Can you find me that?
And I love those kinds ofmandates from editors because
I'm like, okay, I know what thatperson wants.
Let me find it.
And I will often share stuffwithin the agency with all the
agents saying, I talked to thiseditor looking for this.
And somebody will say, oh myGod, I have something that might
really, so then we're alwayssharing information internally,
which is another good sign of agood agency.
(23:06):
This is not something you wouldknow from your conversation with
your agent, but you can ask.
Which is, how does your agencydiffer from other agencies?
Not just you as in terms of yourstyle, but what is the culture
like at your agency?
How receptive and accessible andopen is it, and what are its
values?
Allison (23:24):
That's something that people don't talk about is the
agency culture.
Because an agency could functionlike Keller Williams, like every
realtor has a home base, andthat's where they keep the
administrative staff, butthey're really in competition
with each other.
Sam (23:44):
Yeah we try to avoid that.
I think one of my main goals isto have everybody
collaboratively working ratherthan competitively working.
Allison (23:52):
Right.
And that the difference and youcan kind of sniff that out when
the agency website says, if youdon't hear from me in 12 weeks,
go ahead and query someone else.
That is a big sparkler that youneed to pay attention to.
That's saying we don't talkinternally.
And I'm not gonna share if it'snot for me or if I just don't
(24:14):
get to it.
Which people find very rude.
The querying group.
just in what world do peoplejust not respond like in this
world.
Because there are too manypeople pitching and you can't
possibly.
Sam (24:29):
Well, in a way it's a very stark meritocracy.
You give us a good pitch.
That's exciting.
We'll get back to you.
We'll say, this sounds reallygood.
We'll take a look.
Send me the whole thing.
If it's not, that means youfailed to find the right person.
It doesn't mean that you failedwith your query.
That's why the research is soimportant, like I say.
Allison (24:45):
So that is, that's a little tip.
If you're looking for acollaborative culture, then look
for those tips.
Sam (24:54):
And I wanna go back to research publishers.
A publisher's marketplace doeshave a pass that's good for 24
or 48 hours, I can't remember.
So you can pay 10 bucks, getyour pass, do some digging on a
few agents.
And you should have all yourquestions written out so you can
just use it during that windowand then it expires.
But then you've got your data.
Allison (25:13):
You can reverse engineer what you know you're
paying attention and a lot ofthe agents that you're looking
at are brokering deals with thesame imprint.
Maybe look at that imprint andsee who else is pitching them,
which other agents haverelationship with that imprint
because that widens your agentlist.
(25:37):
I give my clients a list ofquestions or topics that they
need to listen for or ask agentslike here are 40 things that you
might need to listen for in thatfirst conversation with an
agent.
Which might be an hour, and Iknow sometimes you, Sam, get to
chit chat with people in person,which is I'm sure better.
(26:01):
You gotta get your questionsanswered.
But also the agent has to gettheir questions answered.
So I like this list that I made,of course I do.
But because it's a checklist,circle the topics that are
important to you and make surethat you're listening for them.
That way you won't at the endfeel like, oh, I should have
asked this, or I'm not surewhere they're coming from.
Sam (26:23):
Oh, having a checklist.
It's if you're trying toaccomplish anything in a phone
call.
Like if I have a toughnegotiation by phone or
conversation, I usually havenotes to make sure I don't miss
anything.
Because if you get emotionallyinvolved at any point.
It's easy to miss stuff.
The way that the brain works isreally it's a little
unpredictable.
(26:44):
So, having notes is just asimple thing to, to make.
Allison (26:47):
I mean, this is true for any relationship.
Even when you're going to thedoctor, they have seven minutes
with you and they walk in andsay, how are you?
And you say, I'm good.
And then you forget to tell themthat your back is killing you
because you already said you'regood.
And they're like, great, I'llput it in the computer and go
with God.
Bye.
(27:08):
So you do have to be prepared.
But wanna circle back tosomething you said.
You said that with an agent, youhave to have your marketing
vision, and then the agent alsohas a vision.
But I want to make sure thatpeople understand your agent is
not your marketing director.
(27:30):
You are your marketing director.
Your agent is not going to helpyou implement your marketing
plan.
They're going to say to you,what else are you doing?
Because not booking you forspeaking gigs.
You are.
They're not building yourwebsite.
You are.
Sam (27:48):
We refer people to other speaking agencies because we
don't wanna be that agency thattries to be everything.
We wanna be good at doing onething, which is finding great
books and putting them into themarket over and over.
My people ask me why did Ibecome an agent?
And I always tell people, Istudied English Lit and from the
kind of books that I read thatwere considered part of the
(28:09):
cannon, this would've been inthe late eighties when I was in
college.
I didn't see any of the storiesthat I was interested in or what
I wanted.
So by the time I became a youngpublisher and then an agent,
that's been one of my biggestthings to bring new voices to
the cannon.
And I said this at a conferenceand somebody said later on,
they're like, Sam, i'm soexcited to talk to you.
(28:30):
Apparently, you wanted to shootwriters out of a cannon, and I'm
like, it's not that cannon, andI'm not shooting writers out of
a cannon.
Allison (28:36):
Yeah.
Sam (28:36):
It's the cannon not the military device, but.
Allison (28:40):
Right.
Sam (28:41):
The canon of what makes literature, the body of work
that we all study and we use itto prove that we're civilized.
And that we're cultured andsophisticated and we have values
that are human values ratherthan basically killing each
other for stupid reasons.
So, the way that history wouldshow us if we looked at it
closely.
Allison (29:00):
Yeah.
Well, publishing is changing alot now and as the.
Sam (29:07):
Oh yeah.
Almost everybody's excited aboutunderrepresented voices.
It's just that it was somethingthat I was doing from the very
beginning, being somebody who isa bipoc person.
So, I was always conscious ofit.
When I was early in my career, Iremember meeting somebody for
coffee and one of our otherfriends said, you should talk to
Sam.
I think you'd be a great writer.
And I'm like, I'll meet anybodyfor coffee.
I'm that kind of person.
(29:27):
I'm just really open.
And I'm trying to share thosevalues with the agency now
through our socials and throughour branding and what the agency
does.
But I remember meeting thisperson for coffee and they were
my ancestry is originally Indiana long time ago, but I grew up
in the Caribbean and I moved toCanada.
And in her case she was born inCanada, and her family was from
India, but she'd never beenthere, but she's Indian.
(29:51):
And so, we talked about it and Isaid, your stories are so good.
You should really writesomething for me.
And she was so funny.
So, we ended up, she ended up, Igave her a challenge and I said,
gimme something funny and Ithink I can sell it'cause there
is nothing like this.
And so, she gave me chapter ortwo and we had another meeting.
And then I sold it and it cameout in both Canada and the us.
Riverhead published it in the USand McClellan Stewart in Canada,
(30:14):
and it's called On the OutsideLooking Indian.
And it established this writer'ssensibility and voice as a brown
woman in the western world here.
And she ended up being a writeron Schitt's Creek, which then
became a really popular show,even though it was originally
just Canadian.
But of course it becameinternational when it blew up on
Netflix.
And now she's in LA writing fora bunch of other things.
(30:36):
Did I add something to thecanon?
I added a voice that I thoughtwas interesting and I was
successful in getting it intotwo North American publishers,
and the book is out there, itstill sells.
I will help launch somebody'scareer because they had a job
before that and now they'reliving a dream of being a writer
full-time, which almost neverhappens.
So, people ask me, why am Idoing this?
(30:57):
That's the kind of story that Iwanna say times 20 or times 30
or times 40.
I fail almost as many times as Isucceed, which is unfortunate,
but it shows you how difficultthis thing that I'm doing is.
There are a lot of agents whowon't even talk about the canon
or about underrepresented voicesor about changing culture.
What they're gonna talk about ismaking money, and they're gonna
(31:19):
say, you need to have theseboxes checked before you even
talk to me.
Otherwise I'm not interested.
And we never wanna be that kindof an agency.
But there are a lot of them likethat.
And if you're, if you like thatstyle, then you get your
homework done, get the boxeschecked, and contact them.
And you'll probably getrepresentation because there's a
good fit there.
So, the fit is really important.
Allison (31:39):
Mm-hmm.
Sam (31:40):
Which I keep coming back to.
Allison (31:42):
In the same way, I have lived now as an adult in six or
seven houses.
And in three different states.
Don't ask, it's a longer story.
But in each city, I've lived inat least two houses.
And I have a relationship withmy realtor she's not my like
(32:03):
life coach.
She doesn't help me come andpaint the kitchen.
There are things she'll say,she'll come by and be like I can
sell this, you need to fix thedeck and the kitchen maybe go
ahead and put in hardwoods.
In the same way, I think agentscan run the gamut.
Maybe you have an agent wholoves to work with you from the
(32:26):
kernel of an idea.
And then, there are the agentsthat are similar to like the
realtors of selling on Sunset.
Yeah, anybody can sell a newlyrenovated condo on Sunset, but
that's a particular type.
So, I think.
Sam (32:45):
It is a good comparison is literary agents or film and TV
agents versus normal agents.
Like recruiters, people that arehelping you find work or real
estate.
The thing is, almost everybodywants to buy or sell a house
you're looking at maybe even ifthey can't afford it, a hundred
percent of the population wouldlove to be able to buy or sell
the house.
(33:05):
Buying is a difficult part.
You have enough money to do it,but once you start, then you are
buying and selling because thennow you're in the market.
In terms of recruiting, it's alittle more competitive.
The companies have to be lookingfor your skills and your
knowledge base before arecruiter will contact you.
So, now it's a smaller part ofthe market.
By the time you get to what wedo in terms of books, there are
(33:28):
only a couple of hundredliterary agents in the world.
We are more rare than brainsurgeons, so we're talking about
less than 1% of the populationversus a hundred percent for the
real estate agents.
So, you can get a sense of whatthey're doing.
But until you're in this worldas a writer and having to engage
and find an agent.
One of the great disappointmentsthat I have is how many people
(33:49):
can't be bothered and they don'teven try.
They self publish their books,sells 300 copies, and then it's
so sad because if only somebodyknown about it, they might have
had another chance.
So I would say, go ahead.
Self-publish as a last resort.
You've tried, you can make acase that you've really made an
effort.
But you know, it's sad whensometimes people come to me with
a great story.
And then I'm like, this isgreat.
(34:10):
Who have you shown it to?
And then, I'm interested inlooking at it.
They're like, oh, it's selfpublished on Amazon.
And I'm like, wah, wah, wah...
it's like, well, what do I do?
Like I can't explain to thepublisher, that it's already had
a shot at being published andit's got a cover and it's got an
ISBN number and it alreadyexists and it's being reviewed
on good reads or whatever.
But the corollary to that is, Imust said caloric, but the
(34:35):
corollary, the, Yeah.
The kind of other side to that.
Let's just put it that way.
Allison (34:39):
Yeah.
Sam (34:40):
The other side to that is if you're self-publish and it's
part of a market segment inbooks and entertainment that's
trending like romantic orhorror, and people are excited
about it.
That means it's already sellingand editors are looking now more
and more.
They're really drilling deepdown into the market of
(35:03):
self-published books when thebooks are selling.
And then they'll come after you.
And I've seen a number of dealsrecently where people will get
seven figures for expandingtheir bestselling self-published
ebook, and maybe audio and printon demand into a big five deal
with one of the big publishers.
And they're gonna bring out aseries now and expand it to be a
trilogy or quartet of books orwhatever.
(35:27):
So, And then of course there'sprobably interest from film and
TV if it's trending becausethey're looking at what's hot
too.
Everybody's culture is aninteresting game because you, if
you're in with a zeitgeist,you're gonna get a lot of
attention, and the moment thatyou're out, then everything
stops.
And then I tell my authors whenthe attention stops on their
book, it's time to start thenext one because there's no
(35:48):
point being naval and feelingsad.
What did I do wrong?
It was never gonna last forever.
Allison (35:53):
What do authors need to know or do in order to land an
agent considering thateverything's changing?
Sam (36:01):
So, that's a big question and what I was trying to say the
first time, is if you're writingfiction.
You should write what'simportant to you because your
conviction, your talent thestuff that preoccupies you as an
artist is if you're writingliterary fiction, that's really
all you have.
You shouldn't be concerned aboutthe market.
You should be concerned aboutwriting a great book that is
(36:23):
using the most of your talent.
And there are a number of agentswho are for example, connected
to many of the MFA programswhere people are working on
their novels and testing their,the limits of their talent and
pushing themselves to with theircraft.
And that stuff, I thinkliterature by definition has to
exist outside of the kind ofzeitgeist or trending.
(36:47):
The trending stuff is gonna bemore commercial fiction or
things in nonfiction that arebooming.
One of of the big thingsrecently in terms of nonfiction,
probably for the a decade now,has been self-help and
self-improvement.
You know, a number of publishershave created lifestyle imprints
where, how do we live longer?
How do we live better?
We look at bestsellers likePeter Atias Outlive, which has
(37:10):
been on the list since it cameout.
We have an aging population whodoesn't wanna spend the last
part of their lives in bed,unable to actually enjoy the
fact that they're still alive.
So, there's all this stuff abouteating protein, strength
training.
There's all this stuff that'svery trendy and there's a bunch
of stuff because I think a lotof it works.
And so, the question is peoplewanna know, how do I keep the
(37:32):
quality of life longer?
That's a very simple thing thatany publisher or any kind of
producer of media would say,people wanna do this.
Let's figure out how to give itto them.
If you're writing in that space,you're always gonna be of
interest, especially if you haveexpertise and knowledge that
nobody else has, and that's whatDr.
Peter ATT did was he had aclinic and he did it.
(37:54):
So that stuff is always gonna bethere.
I noticed that more and morepeople are bringing, this is
also part of a trend for a whilenow.
People are bringing neuroscienceinto behaviors so that we can,
there's a whole bunch of theneuroscience of X or Y or
whatever.
It's hard for me to explain itacross the broad spectrum of
types of books you might beworking on.
(38:14):
But I do wanna highlight thatnonfiction and fiction are very
different in how you positionthem as a writer.
And one of my areas of expertiseis memoir, and I'm really good
at looking at what we might beable to do with your story to
make it more sellable.
But outside of that, I reallyfeel that if you are writing
something in the literary sideor even in fiction in general
(38:36):
that isn't really commercial,but something that you have to
write that could be reallyimportant to the world.
When you look at you know, whenMary Shelley wrote Frankenstein,
she was trying to write ametaphor for how bad her life
had gone so far by marrying abully, you know, perceived as
Shelly.
And the idea of how I guess themonster is really just the
(38:58):
monster in culture.
It's just a monster that we allhave to deal with and I think in
some ways it's a female monster.
But trying to find its way, avoice.
And that kind of fiction,there's always gonna be room for
that because it's people tellinga very personal story, but using
metaphor, using their talent tomake it bigger, somehow make it
universal without it beingmemoir.
Allison (39:20):
So, just to boil that down, you're saying that
publishing is changing, but toconnect with your core message
or your core belief, put moretrust in yourself.
Sam (39:37):
You have to, as an artist.
Sometimes I use, I don't use theword writer because I think this
is where all art is connected.
Like whether you're a musicianor a visual artist or a
playwright or a novelist, it'sabout finding your voice and
making a work of art that youwant to ideally last.
You Know that, but it has tocome from somewhere within you.
(39:58):
And a lot of what I think thetraining of artists is about is
finding that voice and findingthat unique thing that you bring
to the world.
It's funny'cause you could arguethat for business too.
If somebody wants to launch ausually they have to do the same
kind of work that an artistwould do to find what is their
offering.
What is gonna be the one thingthat they're gonna give the
world that nobody else could?
Allison (40:18):
Right.
You have to really want.
And I would say too, don't gointo a cave and just write your
book.
If you have an expertise, don'tsave your best content for the
book because you still have toshow that there's a market for
(40:38):
it.
You have to be sharing it.
And I think that people think,no, that's gonna go in the book,
so I can't talk about it.
You can talk about it, but it'snot of a book yet.
Sam (40:47):
You should talk about it because that's a test to
publishers.
If you've talked about somethingand it's gone viral, they'll say
well, let's do the book.
And now's the time.
You've just made a case for themarket.
Allison (40:55):
Exactly.
So don't wait.
Don't save your best story forthe essay that you think is
gonna go in your memoir ofessays.
Maybe talk about it, make avideo.
It's really fine.
You don't have to have perfectlighting.
I am in a basement and this is awindow that is lighting me.
(41:16):
I just happen to have my deskfaced toward a window.
This is nothing fancy.
I don't even have a ring lightright now.
Sam, different question pivot.
What is a book you're lovingright now?
Sam (41:32):
You mean a client book or in the market?
Allison (41:35):
I'm saying a book recommendation that I could link
to give people what's in yourreading stack.
And it can be a client book ornot a client book.
Sam (41:46):
Let me find something that there's a couple.
This is an interesting book.
It's called How to Survive aBear Attack.
Claire Cameron, and she's aCanadian writer.
This is published in the US andCanada, which is something that
I always admire when a Canadiancan cross the border.
It may be more difficult nowthan ever, but for culture it's
(42:07):
still fairly easy.
And if you have a great story,I'm enjoying it.
And Claire Cameron is abrilliant writer.
We're lucky in Canada that somany writers are.
They've trained and they'vefocused on the poetry, the kind
of beautiful language.
And then they've learned how totell a story on top of that.
That's the same for people likeMargaret Atwood and Michael and
(42:28):
Dace, who started off as poets.
And then it's part of the wholeCanadian tradition, Leonard
Cohen, so all the Canadiansstart before they started
writing novels.
And anyway, so I'm reallyenjoying it.
On the commercial side, this isa book also published in both
Canada and the us, anotherCanadian writer, and it's called
Detective Aunty.
(42:48):
So in the Indian culture youcall everybody who's a older
woman, an auntie.
And it's usma, usma Jin.
So I'm enjoying that for, that'sjust fun.
Cozy mystery with a lot ofIndian stuff.
And if you like chai and youlike Indian sweets, it's all
there.
Allison (43:03):
Get it and we'll have those links in the show notes to
bookshop.org.
Sam (43:08):
They're both published in both Canada and the us.
So that's always exciting to mewhen somebody, I'm looking at it
because I do represent a fairnumber of Canadian writers.
I can't get them all in the us,but I try.
And i'm representing more andmore over time American writers
that just come to me and they'relike, I love your stuff.
Can I work with you?
And the borders are irrelevant.
Allison (43:28):
Your agency is US and Canada, so you.
Sam (43:32):
Yeah.
And we just hired an Americanagent, Matt Belford from, he
left another agency in New Yorkcalled New Leaf, and he's a
great new agent for us.
It's always a mix at our agency,the rights factory, of having
people that have come in andtrained as assistants that we
bring up and give them a chanceto be agents and mentor them.
And then we have people likeMatt that come in with over a
(43:54):
decade of experience.
So, I'm excited to see, he'salready brought some clients and
we're doing,
Allison (43:58):
Wow.
Sam (43:58):
He is doing deals already, so it's exciting.
Allison (44:00):
That's really cool.
What is something you wantreaders and authors to know that
if you could take someone by theshoulders and just be like, do
this?
What's something that peopleshould do today that if you
could take a writer aside andjust whisper to them.
(44:21):
Like, know this one thing, dothis one thing.
That they can, you know, otherthan you can do it.
We understand that, people wantyour special sauce.
Sam (44:34):
I think the one advice I can give is that almost nobody
knows how good a book has to bein terms of the quality before
you find an agent.
Because even if we're willing towork with you, we want it to be
90% plus there.
And what a lot of people don'tunderstand is what is 90%?
So there's a lot of crap, likemillions of self-published books
(44:57):
that are just crap.
Nobody's ever gonna care aboutthem.
People halfheartedly wrotesomething, they couldn't get any
interest.
They put it up.
That's probably good for them.
There's also a number of booksthat never, were gonna have a
big market anyway.
It's probably best that theyself-published.
But outside of that, if you arepassionate about your book and
you think it's important and youthink it's a great story for
whatever reasons, and you shouldhave some justification for
(45:18):
that.
You can't be delusional.
So you should have either you'rein a writing community or a
series of writing workshops, itdoesn't even have to be an MFA
in creative writing, but thathelps.
It could just be some writingcourses or you have a mentor or
you have an editor that'sworking with you who has tested
their work against the marketand can encourage you.
And I tell people it takes avillage to write a book and it
(45:41):
takes a bigger village topublish a book.
But in terms of the writing youneed to have beta readers.
You need to have.
Your friends around you and youneed to test it with them.
There is a great quote that Iread recently by Miranda July in
writing all fours, and she saidthat she knew exactly what she
wanted the book to be, so it'snot like it randomly became this
(46:03):
book about sex after menopause.
She and one of her friends wouldmeet once a week and talk about
exactly what she was doing.
She had a strategy, she wasthinking about the book in the
market.
And she wanted it to besuccessful from the ground up.
Planned it that way.
So sometimes if you have, butyou you can't do that in your
head.
(46:24):
You need to have people aroundyou that believe in what you're
doing and that reinforce you andmaybe sometimes criticize you
and say, I think that's wrong.
If you look this up, I'm surethere was an interview somewhere
online where she talked abouthow much strategy there was, and
that's something that is reallyrare.
I guess what I'm trying to sayis she was an experienced writer
and she put the strategy in,even if you're brand new, you
need to know that your book isgood enough that if you share
(46:46):
it.
People are gonna look at it andsay, this is actually really
good, I'm interested in workingwith you because I think I can
show this to some publishers.
When you're reaching an agent,that's the number one thing that
you have to ask yourself.
Is this gonna be good enough forthe agent to wanna share it to
their friends at Penguin RandomHouse or Harper Collins or Simon
and Schuster?
So that's basically what it is.
Even if there's potential there,they might say, you came close,
(47:07):
I'm really sorry, but are wegonna have to a few hours out of
our day to write you a critique?
No.
So, usually people criticizeagents for saying, sorry, this
isn't right for me.
We don't have time to give youany more than that.
That's the best we can do.
That's if you get an answer.
Allison (47:24):
Right.
If you get an answer.
I think the value of gettinginput from a trusted source, not
from your sister.
She's not a writer, she's notgonna be able to help you.
But get input and sometimes youhave to just you're mulling in
your head and you've gotta makea decision A or B, does the plot
(47:44):
go this way or that way?
Or do the chapters getstructured this way or that way?
If you have someone coming alongwith you, even if you're in a
community, you can get a quickinput and then go, oh, okay.
They understand what I'm doing,so I trust that they said, go
with the you know, thread A.
Sam (48:04):
Even if you're not in a writing workshop or whatever, a
critique group is reallyvaluable.
Because one, writing is veryisolating.
You're lonely.
You can't write and haveconversations with other people
at the same time you're alone.
So, it gives you a community,which is really important.
Two, it gives you disciplinebecause you promised a deadline
(48:24):
to the group and now you gottadeliver.
So, now, even if you're a littlehungover, you gotta deliver the
chapter that you promised.
And third, it gives you feedbackby people that are qualified.
Like you said, your sister mightnot be the best person to help,
even though they might be reallyencouraging.
So, you want those three things,and every writing critique group
will give that to you.
And the fourth thing that I tellpeople is try to belong to a
(48:45):
critique group where everybody'sa better writer than you.
But they love you anyway.
Because then you're really gonnapush your work, you're gonna get
a lot out of it.
And then hopefully you're gonnagive them something back too.
Allison (48:55):
That's perfect.
Thank you Sam, so much.
And tell everyone where they canfind you and.
Sam (49:01):
The company is the Rights Factory.
So, it's therightsfactory.com,all one word.
And I do have some socials.
I never use them, but so go tothe agency.
I would say if you are curiousabout what we're doing, add our
Instagram, which is at theRights factory.
Then you can see we try to postsomething daily about new books
that are out press for ourbooks, things that are happening
to our authors, shortlists andawards, which is something
(49:24):
that's happening more and more,which is we're very grateful
for.
And new agents and what they'relooking for.
We're constantly, or where we'regonna be.
I was at the San Miguelconference earlier this year and
I, and people saw that and I, weposted I was gonna be in Mexico,
which I loved.
Follow us and see what we'redoing and if something resonates
with you, you might say, oh,these guys might be good for us
for something.
Allison (49:43):
And it offer a dozen agents, it's a big agency.
Sam (49:47):
Yeah.
We're growing.
There's 16 agents now.
Yeah.
Allison (49:50):
Yeah, that's quite a lot.
Thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom and your patience
and your guidance with me andwith everyone listening who
wants their book to be in theworld and be a success.
It matters what you do and weall appreciate you.
Sam (50:11):
Thanks, Allison.
You know, one of the lines Ilearned early in my career is a
professional writer is anamateur who never gave up.
Allison (50:18):
That is a mic drop moment.
Boom, people, I can't think ofany better way to sign off.
If you like and appreciate thisepisode and especially Sam Hyatt
and genius, please stop and.
(50:38):
Share a review.
Just scroll down in your phone,click the five stars.
And if you think is this a fourstar?
If four star, email me.
Listen the algorithm enjoys thefive stars.
If there's something that youfeel like is missing, email me
and I will deliver it.
In the meantime, give us areview and share this with
(51:03):
someone who needs it because youare the writers, and the people
who should be writers and theauthors who are already out
there and they want their booksto continue.
They all need support.
We are in it together.
There are no competitors.
There's only teamwork.
There are only peers and who'sgonna help but other authors.
(51:26):
I will see you next week.
Sam (51:28):
Thanks so much, Allison, for having me on.
Appreciate it.
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