July 15, 2025 • 38 mins
Is it ever too late to write your book and get published? Lori Hellis proves it’s not.
Allison Lane and Lori Hellis explore how she transitioned from a career in law to becoming a recognized voice in the true crime genre with a successful book launch, a thriving YouTube channel, and a dedicated readership. You’ll hear how she reverse-engineered her author marketing strategy, secured a publishing deal fast, and built visibility without waiting for permission.
If you’re wondering how to launch a book, grow your audience, or get published after 60, this episode is your blueprint.
What You’ll Learn:
- How Lori used her legal background to create a compelling true crime brand
- The fastest path to getting a nonfiction book published without hundreds of queries
- Why community (and not just content) can drive your visibility
Resources Mentioned:
- Lori Hellis website: https://www.lorihellis.com/
- Lori Hellis’ book: Children of Darkness and Light Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell: A Story of Murderous Faith: https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9781639367108
- Connect with Lori on YouTube - Chasing Justice: https://www.youtube.com/@ChasingjusticewithLori
- Book Reco: An Unfinished Love Story: A Personal History of the 1960s: https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9781982108663
- Book Launch Bootcamp: https://www.lanelit.com/
Timestamps:
04:12 – How Lori’s divorce book unexpectedly launched her publishing career
15:47 – The legal case that turned into a bestseller
28:03 – Why your niche expertise is your biggest author asset
37:15 – How Lori built a true crime platform in just 3 months
44:59 – The #1 mistake aspiring true crime authors make
56:02 – What authors really need to know before their book launch
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori (00:00):
step out, take the risks.
(00:03):
The worst you're going to hearis no.
And we've all heard that beforeand we all survived hearing no.
But every once in a while, youhear yes.
And that makes it all worth it.
Allison (00:40):
Welcome back to the Author's Edge.
We are talking so much aboutopening doors for ourselves, and
sometimes means opening yourmind to what's next, especially
when your encore career turnsout to be some of the most
meaningful steps you've evertaken.
(01:03):
Todays's traded the courtroomfor her laptop keyboard,
launching a YouTube channel, anddoing this in retirement that
unexpectedly grew into a bookdeal.
And her book is such asuperstar.
(01:24):
If you've ever wondered if it'stoo late to write a book, Lori
Hellis is proof that your nextchapter is just waiting and it
might be your very best one.
So welcome, welcome, Lori.
I'm so glad to see you.
And I love that we match.
(01:44):
If you're watching on YouTube,you see that this happens all
the time where everybody showsup.
I'm like, did we plan this?
We did not.
Lori (01:52):
Hey, how are you?
Allison (01:54):
I am doing great.
I'm in Boston and it ismid-July.
No, it's mid-June.
Oh my gosh.
What is wrong with my head?
It is mid-June, a week ago, wewere wearing coats Today, it is
too hot to be outside.
Boston is so unreliable andinconsistent.
(02:14):
But where you are, the PacificNorthwest, it's like, cool in
the evening and warm during theday.
It sounds perfect.
I'll be right there.
I'm headed to the airport rightnow.
Lori (02:26):
Hey, I'll make up the guest room.
Allison (02:29):
Yeah.
I would love it.
Let's talk about your book,Children of Darkness and Light
and how that came to be.
So, can you just walk us throughthat and how you got interested
in writing about True crime whenfirst book was the No Nonsense
(02:52):
Guide to Divorce.
Sort of a left turn, but maybeit makes sense.
So, walk us through everything.
Lori (02:59):
So, for nearly 30 years, I practiced family and criminal
law.
Did a lot of criminal defensework, worked as a public
defender.
At one point, I worked as aprosecutor, so I had a lot of
experience in that realm.
So, when my daughter went tocollege, I was sort of trying to
(03:19):
figure out what I was going todo next and decided that I would
go back to school and get aMaster's in Fine Art in creative
writing.
Because I knew that I wanted thenext chapter to be writing.
I've always been a writer.
But I didn't have anything lawrelated or crime related on my
(03:41):
radar.
When people would ask me, oh,you're going to write crime
thrillers?
I'd be like, no, that's not onmy agenda.
So, after I retired, I heardabout this case, this really
crazy case.
And the time I heard about it Ithought, you know, it's like my
criminal defense, spidey senseswent off.
(04:03):
You know, I'm like, this is notat all what it seems.
And the deeper I got intofollowing it, the more I
thought, this is not what itseems.
So, I was right in the throes offinishing this book on divorce.
After I retired, I thought, whatis the thing that I can get
published quickest so I can getmy name out there?
(04:27):
And you know, it doesn't have tobe a house of fire, but I need a
published book.
So, I wrote this book aboutabout how to get divorced if
you're a millennial and it'scalled the No Nonsense Guide to
Divorce.
I was right in the throes offinishing up that book and I
mean, that was sort of a crazystory anyway.
(04:48):
Allison, and you and I metbecause we were taking a seminar
on how to write book proposals.
And so, I thought, I'll justsend this out to a few agents
and see if I'm on the righttrack, you know, maybe get a
little feedback.
And so, I sent to 10 agents.
And out of the 10, I got threethat were interested.
(05:11):
So I went with a guy who was notthe biggest or most important,
but I just liked him.
He had a good vibe and he wasjust a good fit.
So, we took on the divorce book.
It was just finishing up.
When I reached out to him andsaid what would you think about
true crime?
He was a little bit skeptical atthe beginning.
(05:34):
But I wrote the proposal and Isent it to him, and when he got
ahold of it, he was like, ohyeah we have to do this.
So, fortunately, it sold inabout three weeks and we were
off to the races.
Unfortunately, the trial hadn'thappened yet, and there were
many delays.
I have to say that the publisherwas very understanding about how
(05:58):
many delays we had.
So, we finally got through allthe trials.
I literally pushed send on themanuscript after writing the
last two paragraphs the day thatChad Debell was sentenced.
The book came out a year lastSeptember, and it's just been
hit in the ground ever since.
So, you and I talked about it.
(06:20):
I did your marketing seminar onhow to book launch bootcamp, I
think.
And it was super.
Allison (06:27):
Yeah.
The Book Seller Launch School,which is nobody knows how to
launch a book unless you dowhich I do.
And it way, way back.
This is og, this is before Ieven started the Facebook
community, and I was seeing youwho are like, I have this pitch.
You know, we are peers.
Can everybody take a look at itbefore it goes out?
(06:49):
And I don't remember likespending too much time and I
think you probably shared it inthat group.
And everything that happened foryou happened really quickly.
Usually, when people queryagents or publishers, the
average wait time is threemonths.
They say to 12 weeks, it's threemonths it.
(07:12):
You receive feedback right awayin your first round of querying.
So not only did you have asingular view and understanding
of what first book was going tobe.
But the second book, and we'llhave to get into the actual true
crime in a second.
You really understood how tomarket it, not just how to relay
(07:37):
the story of this horrificinstance of violence.
When you put together theproposal for either of those,
you're so cash about it now.
But usually people are on likebiting their nails and I hope
somebody gets back to me becauseit feels like when you're
(07:57):
querying, you're like putting itout into the world.
And is it a black hole?
Will it come back to you?
I think you always hadconfidence like, I know my poo.
I know that this is out thereand it will find the right
place.
Is that how you saw it?
Lori (08:12):
Well, I think so.
And I think it's because the lawis my niche.
I know the law and so I had somebuilt in street cred because of
that.
But I think some of it was justpure ignorance.
I was such a novice that I hadno idea that people send to a
hundred agents before they getone.
I was just going on what littleinformation I knew at that
(08:35):
point, because it's a prettysteep learning curve.
Allison (08:38):
Yeah, it is.
Publishing is hard to figure outand there's no, get published 1
0 1 that you could just take andget in it in an afternoon.
Although, I will take that on.
I will create, get published 1 01 and do it in an afternoon so
people don't have to guess orlisten to all my podcast
(08:58):
episodes back to back.
Although if you do, please dropme a line because I want to know
who you are.
So, let's talk about this caseand how it started to get hooked
in your mind of what is thisabout?
because you were not writingtrue crime, you were not
thinking about it, but you movedto a town in Utah, Arizona.
Lori (09:22):
Arizona.
Yeah.
Allison (09:24):
Tell us what you observed and how you got hooked
in.
Lori (09:30):
When I retired for quite a few reasons, I decided that we
needed to move.
We needed to not shovel snowduring the winter.
I needed to be out of thecommunity where I was so
connected to my colleague that Iwas worried that I would never
be able to really retire becauseI love those people and I would
(09:50):
see them overloaded with workand I would think, oh, I'll just
take a couple of cases, justrelieve the pressure.
And so I was really worried thatI wasn't going to be able to cut
those ties.
We moved from Central Oregon toMesa, Arizona, which is suburban
Phoenix.
And in the community right nextdoor to us in Gilbert.
(10:11):
This very odd incident happened,and I was just listening to the
news one night.
This young reporter was talkingabout the fact that this really
weird case had happened.
A case where it was alleged thatthis woman's brother shot and
killed her husband in an act ofself-defense.
And then, three weeks later, shedisappeared off the face of the
(10:34):
earth with her two children.
Nobody knew where she was.
Nobody had any contact with thechildren, and it was just a
really weird case.
And definitely one of thosewere.
When I was thinking about it andlistening to it, it didn't make
sense to me.
My experience with criminal law,I would just this doesn't add
(10:55):
up.
Something's weird here.
So, I started following it.
Then I discovered that there wasa Facebook group that was
following the case.
And so I joined that and thenpeople started asking questions.
She was found, she was inHawaii, the children were still
missing.
And they were extraditing herback to Idaho where she had
(11:17):
moved.
And people were asking questionsand they were legal questions.
And time I would answer them, Iwould have to add to the post
all the reasons why I knew whatI was talking about.
I had to always list mybonafides.
And I got tired of it.
So, I thought, what the heck?
I'll just start a littlenewsletter, blog about the legal
(11:39):
issues in the case.
So, asked permission from theFacebook group, if I could just
let people know that I had thisblog and I was excited When I
had 200 subscribers, I was like,wow, I had idea.
That's how it got started.
I got invited on a YouTubechannel by another creator and
to talk about the case, and thatled to me starting my own
(12:02):
YouTube channel.
So, I have a small YouTubechannel that does true crime
with a very sweet and devotedfollowing.
Allison (12:10):
Small, but I remember you saying really I just get on
the YouTube channel.
We go live on Friday nights.
We talk about what happened inthe case.
Lori (12:18):
Right.
Allison (12:18):
During the week, and suddenly you had 8,000
followers.
Lori (12:23):
That's true.
Allison (12:23):
8000 subscribers.
That's not small.
That's 8,000 people who didn'tjust watch, but they clicked
subscribe.
Lori (12:31):
Right.
Allison (12:32):
They're fascinated.
Lori (12:35):
In the law tube creator's sphere, 8,000 is a drop in the
bucket.
There are several of the YouTubecreators that have 120,000 half
a million subscribers.
To me it's small, but I love thecommunity.
I love being able to talk topeople who are interested in
cases and interested in thelegal aspects of the case.
(12:59):
I've always enjoyed teaching, soI like being able to things down
for people and explain stuff.
So, it's great fun.
And so, Wednesday nights I spenda couple of hours with my pals
and we talk true crime.
Allison (13:14):
Goodness.
So, it's not overnight, it'sthat it started with a Facebook
group.
You became prominent inside thegroup because your street cred
is undeniable.
And you started a newsletter soyou could just brain dump in it
without having to answereveryone's questions, onesie,
twosies.
(13:35):
And then that led to a YouTubechannel.
And all of this happened in thecourse of a couple months.
I remember.
Lori (13:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, it did.
And then yeah, about threemonths I think.
Allison (13:45):
Super quick.
Lori (13:45):
At that point I was already talking to my agent
about a book and on a bookproposal.
Yeah.
Allison (13:53):
But then just spoiler alert, the end of the story is
that the woman who wasextradited turns out, just go
ahead and tell the of the casebecause it's.
Lori (14:06):
So part of part of the case, that was interesting to me
is that she was deeply involvedin a faction of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-DaySaints a very sort of
fundamentalist faction.
And we all know that there arespinoffs outside of the LDS
(14:27):
church, like the FLDS and WarrenJeffs and all those people.
What was interesting about thisis a group that's in the
mainstream church.
So that was really interesting,but they're very much believers
in doomsday and dark and lightspirits and that spirits can
inhabit people.
And she claimed that evilspirits, it had conveniently
(14:52):
inhabited First her fourthhusband, Charles Vallow.
And then her two children whoshe didn't really have time for
because she was busy being agoddess and the leader of the
144,000 with her new SweetieChad Daybell.
The children's bodies were foundabout six months later when the
ground thawed in Idaho in ChadDaybell's backyard.
(15:17):
Yeah.
They also murdered ChadDaybell's first wife.
Yeah.
Allison (15:23):
Yeah.
A lot of people were I mean,just want to show the cover
because it's just even ahaunting Children of Darkness
and Light, Lori Vallow and ChadDaybell, A story of murderous
Faith.
And I love this cover and I'm soimpressed that you were able to
become the expert voice of theall entire case.
(15:46):
Now, when pivoting a little bitwhen you see people, and I'm
sure people come to you now, Ithink I'd like to write.
When you see people who aretrying to make you know, a pivot
when it comes to perhaps,writing true crime and now
you're seeing a lot of thembecause you went to Crime Con
and you were, you know rubbingelbows with a lot of people.
Lori (16:06):
Right.
Allison (16:07):
What do you see people doing that helps, and what's a
common mistake that people makewhen they really want to dig
into something?
Lori (16:16):
I think that people look at the massive information
that's online and think, oh, Ican just mine all of that
information find out what reallyhappened.
And there's a lot ofinaccuracies and a lot of online
content.
So, you really have to do yourown research.
Relying on somebody else andwhat's out there on the internet
might not be the most reliableway to write a true crime book.
(16:39):
Although, there are a couple ofauthors who do that.
And there are a couple of booksout about the Vallow case that
have a lot of inaccuracies inthem as a result.
Don't be fooled into thinkingyou can just go out and mine the
internet for a book.
You really have to do thelegwork.
Allison (16:56):
And you were in the courtroom, you were there every
day.
Lori (17:00):
Yeah.
Both trials.
Allison (17:01):
unfold.
Yeah.
Lori (17:02):
Trials.
And I actually moved to Idahofor two years while I was
writing the book.
I don't necessarily recommendfollowing your subject matter
around.
But it worked for us.
So yeah.
Allison (17:19):
So, your book explores the collision of mental health
and religious extremism and alsothis feeling of maybe
misperception of safety amongstyour neighbors.
And when your book was set tocome out, we talked a little bit
about how to elevate thisconversation.
(17:42):
So, it's not about this onecase, it's how the guy across
the street, kids, like how welldo you know him.
And how it's the responsibilityof a community to know, and set
the standard.
And can you talk a little bitabout that and how you've seen
(18:04):
or experienced youropportunities open up to talk,
not just about the case, butthese themes?
Lori (18:12):
Yeah, I do think that as after the book came out, and as
I've done some of the marketingbook tour sort of things.
You do see people saying, thiscould have happened in my
community.
This isn't an isolated event.
Allison (18:29):
Yeah.
Lori (18:29):
Both Mesa, Arizona and Rexburg, Idaho have large LDS
populations, Rexburg, Idaho, thestatistics are that about 20,
about 96% of the population thatlive in Rexburg are members of
the LDS Church.
So, there's that sense that thiscould happen in my community
(18:54):
because these people who I willtell you, living in Mesa the
people who were part of the LDSchurch were some of the best
neighbors you could ever have.
They're lovely people.
And I think there was this senseof, it was a shock for them to
know that these people wereliving in their own community
(19:14):
and in the cultural bubble ofthe church.
But for the non-believingpopulation was like, oh, I don't
know these people who seem onthe outside, very kind and very
active in the community.
What do I really know about myneighbors?
So, I think there definitely wasa version of that.
(19:36):
There definitely was a layer ofthat in people's comments.
Allison (19:41):
Yeah.
I'm sure you got into it a crimecon.
I just would love to hear all ofyour insights.
Lori (19:47):
Oh my goodness.
Allison (19:49):
Oh, I'm sure you had a ton of epiphanies when you were
there and seeing, the authorsand the speakers and the
podcasters and such.
When you consider all thatyou've achieved now and this
very visible voice that you nowhave.
Would you do anythingdifferently?
And what lesson have you learnedfrom all of this?
Lori (20:12):
You know, I'm not sure.
I would do too much differently.
I might not have moved to Idaho.
It wasn't my favorite place inthe world to live.
But outside of that, I'm notsure that I would have done
things differently, I thinkbecause it's a learning process
no matter how old you are, andno matter how experienced you
(20:32):
are when you venture into a newarea, it's just a learning
experience.
And I just happen to be one ofthose people who is chronically
curious and who loves learningnew things.
So, taking on something new andexciting and figuring it out.
I enjoy doing that.
(20:53):
But I'm not sure looking back onit that I I wanted to get out
there with a book before thetrial started because I felt
like, I would be batting cleanupif I didn't.
So, the fact that it tookanother two years to finally
write the book because of allthe delays that sort of comes
with that territory.
(21:13):
Yeah, it's been a really fun,really exciting adventure moving
out of what was comfortable forme for 30 years and into
something that's really new andexciting and different.
Allison (21:26):
And people call it retirement, but you are
certainly not moonwalking intothe shadows.
You're like, I hate the wordretirement because it makes me
think of people like shrinking.
And that's not you at all.
In fact, you are really steppingforward and thinking of what's
(21:47):
next.
Lori (21:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's funny because when Iannounced I was going to retire
from law practice, I don't thinkthat anybody who knew me thought
for one minute that I was goingto be sitting around eating bon
bons and watching soap operas.
It's just not me.
So I don't think anyone whoreally knows me was super
surprised that I launched intosomething in a different vein.
(22:10):
So
Allison (22:10):
Yeah.
Lori (22:11):
You mentioned Crime Con this year.
Crime con for the uninitiatedwho aren't in the true crime
community is this hugeconvention that happens every
year for people who are big truecrime followers.
And it usually features whatevercases are at the top of
everyone's mind and brings inlots of speakers, both people
(22:33):
who are creators as well aspeople who are in some way
involved in victims of crime orbeing lawyers who have
prosecuted or policeinvestigations.
And it draws every year thecrowds just multiply.
So this year it's in Denver thesecond weekend in September.
(22:56):
And the book has been nominatedfor their Clue Award.
So, I'm really excited aboutthat.
They nominate five books, sowe'll see what happens in
September.
But it was it was really a bighonor.
Thanks.
It was fun.
Allison (23:10):
So huge.
So huge.
So you have said before that youwish you started sooner, but you
were a busy court attorney.
Lori (23:26):
Yeah.
Allison (23:27):
Do you still think that you should have you wish you
could have started sooner or doyou actually wish that you
started sooner?
Lori (23:35):
I wish I could have started sooner, I think.
Everything that you think aboutthose things is all done colored
with hindsight and being able tolook back and think, oh man
yeah, I coulda, I would've, Ishould've.
And that's not life, that's justnot true life.
True life is that things happenas they're meant to unfold.
(23:57):
Yeah, part of me that thinks,man, I could be much further
ahead if I had started earlier,and you get to a stage in your
life where you're thinking,okay, so how many more years do
I have to be keeping doing this?
I don't make any secret of thefact that I'm facing the big
seven oh, next year.
And so, I just think, okay howmuch more time am I going to
(24:19):
invest in this?
And do I have it ahead of me todo it?
And I think, oh gosh, if I'donly started 10 years earlier,
but the reality is that it'ssuper exciting and it's just
added a lot to my retirementlife and thrilled about it.
I have a new project that I'mnot necessarily ready to
(24:40):
announce yet, but is superexciting and it's definitely
energized me.
It's another true crime book.
I feel like I had one more storyI really wanted to tell and then
we'll see.
But I'm really excited about thedirection it's going and by the
fall I think we're going to havesome really interesting
developments, so.
Allison (25:00):
Oh, I can't wait to hear.
As someone who's just observedyour rise and your achievement,
what strikes me is that you takeaction.
You see an opportunity, evenlike in the Facebook community,
you're answering people'squestions and you just thought.
(25:21):
You know what?
I'm just going to consolidatethis into a newsletter.
You didn't say that I can starta YouTube channel and that can
lead to some, you just the onenatural progression, but you saw
an opportunity.
And honestly, that was probablyeasier for you to consolidate
your thoughts in a newsletterthan to answer everyone's
(25:43):
question at a time.
So, when i'm just talking to theperson who's listening, who's
thinking, I wonder what I woulddo.
You can't plot that out.
You might hope for the endresult, but it's certainly hard
to see what the third step willbe until you take the first
(26:06):
step.
Even in the game shoots andladders, you don't know if
you're going to hit a ladder ora shoot.
And so you can't see the nextstep until you take the step in
front of you, but you do have totake a step.
Lori (26:21):
That's right.
I had a dear friend that was mylaw school bestie.
And she was very involved in therecovery community.
And the recovery community has asaying.
They say, you just suit up andshow up and let God do the rest.
And that's been my philosophyfor a long time.
(26:41):
I get up in the morning and Iwould put on my lady lawyer
clothes and the person whoneeded me would walk through the
door.
And I have done the same thingwith this journey.
I'm present and I am available,and I know that the doors are
going to open.
The important thing is you gotto take the step and walk
through them.
And if it's something as simpleas reaching out to the people in
(27:05):
the Facebook group and saying,Hey, would you mind if I told
people about this newsletter?
You know, that was really, thebeginning of it was saying, I
think the other thing was that Iwasn't saying subscribe to my
newsletter, pay me.
It was just I'm just going to beone lawyer out there posting
(27:26):
some random thoughts about thiscrazy case.
And if you're interested asinterested in it as I am, then
here's some info.
And it definitely grew quickly.
Now, the true crime, the genreof true crime has exploded.
It's incredibly popular and overthe last five to seven years
(27:50):
there's really been a big uptickin people's interest in it.
And I put that down to theavailability of podcasts and
YouTube shows where people
Allison (28:00):
Sure
Lori (28:01):
can tune in at their leisure.
Yeah.
But it was a combination ofbeing in the right place at the
right time and walking throughthe doors that got opened up.
Yeah.
Allison (28:12):
Yeah.
And taking the step.
Similarly, this podcast was noton my mind until we were in that
seminar together.
And then I opened up Facebookcommunity where it was just so
that we could stay in touch.
It didn't have a mission.
But after a few get togethers,people were joining and they all
(28:33):
had the same questions.
And they were all about how topitch an agent, can somebody
look at my pitch letter?
And I would say, share it.
You know what, send it to me andI'll revise it live while we're
all talking.
And then that person would comeback the next week and say, I
used it and I got an agentemailed me right back.
Yeah, of course they did,because I am a expert marketer.
Lori (28:56):
Right.
Allison (28:57):
Then that turned into me being proactive about it,
like similar to you of I'll justdo weekly workshops on how to
pitch or what your bio shouldlook like.
Because everyone's bio is sodull.
How to choose comps and thatbroaden your sales opportunity.
(29:17):
How to customize your outreachto a publisher or an agent and
what to say and what words toremove so that you're really
being efficient.
Because any pitch letter tomedia, to an agent, to a
publisher.
You have to care about thosewords as much as a poet would.
It's really a reduction sauce ofyour awesome book idea or your
(29:41):
awesome article idea, butthere's no room for extra words.
Lori (29:45):
Very true.
Allison (29:47):
Yeah.
Lori (29:47):
And especially when you're pitching to someone who's
reading hundreds of them.
Allison (29:52):
Yeah.
Every query gets one minute.
Lori (29:55):
Yeah.
And
Allison (29:55):
then next.
Yes.
Lori (29:57):
Yeah.
Allison (29:58):
And then after a while everyone went back to real life.
So I said, you know what?
I'm going to do this podcast.
I'm going to close the Facebookcommunity because people are
just weren't going to Facebookcommunities now.
And this allows me to reach somuch more people, so many more.
I think that's just a naturalprogression.
It was not my intent.
(30:19):
When I first got started, Isimply thought, got street cred
here and I should be, how couldI sit by when someone's idea is
so good?
All they need is to hone it, orthey need to know how to pitch
media so they can have a couplebylines so that the publisher
will see that they are indeed aleading voice.
(30:42):
Because sometimes you have tojudge your street cred a little
to have something recent.
And then all of those thingsworked.
Lori (30:50):
Well, I think it's just, it's a need.
There's a need out there thatyou saw and wanted to fill.
And it's been incrediblyhelpful.
The book Launch Bootcamp wasvery helpful for me.
Children of Darkness and Lightcame out with Pegasus Books and
they do some marketing and thereis a public, I do have a
(31:13):
publicist.
But they can't do it all.
And I felt like getting ahead ofdoing the things that you
suggested, getting all thematerials ready for my book
launch meant that they could bemore efficient with their time.
They weren't having to createthe author bios and the
(31:35):
excerpts, all of those things.
Allison (31:38):
Questions.
Here's a list of podcasts that Ishould be on because you will be
asked for all of that.
Lori (31:43):
Right.
Allison (31:43):
When you're launching your book.
Who should we reach out to?
And they look to you.
And oftentimes, you don't wantto not have an answer for that.
What is your marketing plan?
Lori (31:56):
Knowing ahead of time what to expect the questions that
they were probably going to askme.
And being able to have thoughtthrough all those things and
being able to say, here, let mejust send you this.
Your templates were absolutely,wonderful.
And I couldn't have done itwithout them.
It was absolutely well worth theinvestment.
(32:18):
And I also loved the other womenwho were involved in that
particular bootcamp and foundthem really interesting.
And so the whole experience wasso good.
And anybody who's thinking aboutlaunching a book, definitely
that was time and money wellspent.
Allison (32:36):
Thank you.
I think one point that you madeis that the community matters.
Anybody can take an onlinecourse, but.
Lori (32:46):
Sure.
Allison (32:46):
When it's live and there's community and you know
you're going through it withother people who are doing the
same thing that you are.
Boy, you really need that.
Even if it's just two or threepeople out of the whole court.
You really need that.
And then all thesecollaborations ensue of like
(33:08):
cross-promoting.
And you have a podcast, whydon't you come on my podcast and
we'll swap and introductions.
That wouldn't have happenedunless you dig in.
So, it's not just, Hey, can Ihave your methods?
Lori (33:25):
Right.
It was super fun.
I was invited to the TucsonFestival of Books and when I got
there, I met in person, one ofthe women that had been in the
book launch seminar.
And that was super fun.
It was exciting.
And we were able to go, oh,yeah, really fun.
Allison (33:43):
I know online friends become in real life friends,
like ta-da.
Lori (33:46):
That's been the way it's been with the true crime
community as well.
There is a group of a subset ofYouTube called Law Tubers.
And they all tend to show up atCrime Con.
And so, you get to meet inperson people that you've been
talking to for months and yearsonline.
And yeah, those are funopportunities.
Allison (34:08):
Awesome.
Well, let me pivot because Ialways ask, what is a book you
want to make sure that peopleare reading other than yours?
Which I just dropped again, butChildren of Darkness and Light,
you got to get it.
What's a book you love?
Lori (34:23):
I have to quickly make sure I get the title right.
Because I want to do the bookjustice.
So it is I got to look it up onmy book list.
Doris Kearns Goodwin, of course,I can't spell.
Allison (34:38):
Wasn't it?
Lori (34:38):
Kearns Goodwin an unfinished love story is
probably one of my favoritesright now.
She of course has been apolitical historian for all of
my life, and maybe it justresonates to me because she met
her husband.
And her personal history relatedto the sixties and seventies.
(35:01):
And that's my era.
Maybe that's part of it, but Ilove the story.
It's the story of she and herhusband, both very well known
political operatives andpolitical historians and going
back and looking at the sixtiesand seventies by going through
the boxes that he had kept forall those years of his own
(35:24):
personal files and going backthrough them that nixon era and
the post Nixon post Watergateera, really interesting.
I've always found herinteresting anyway, and I
recommend that one.
Allison (35:36):
Yeah.
I love her.
She used to show up on the JohnStewart the Daily Show.
The favorite episodes.
Lori (35:43):
Yeah.
Allison (35:44):
And she would just come in there with her readers on.
And so surprising of such a bigpersonality with a little lady
cardigan.
Loved her.
Lori (35:53):
Yeah.
She is just veryunapologetically who she is and
I appreciate that.
Allison (35:58):
Yeah.
All right.
Before we call this podcastcomplete, what's one thing that
you want to leave people with?
Lori (36:06):
I would say, do all the things.
Take the steps, take the risk.
Say about my 38 year ofmarriage, it works because my
husband is the less risk averseperson who's always pulling me
back and saying, maybe we betterlook at this again.
And I'm always the person on theprecipice with my toes hanging
(36:27):
over the edge.
But I would say step out, takethe risks.
The worst you're going to hearis no.
And we've all heard that beforeand we all survived hearing no.
But every once in a while, youhear yes.
And that makes it all worth it.
Allison (36:47):
I can't think of anything better.
That was so powerful.
Ooh, full body chills.
Lori, thank you for being here.
And thank you for putting in thetime while you're in traffic to
listen to this and open the doorto your next move.
(37:07):
All you have to do is stepforward.
Just one step, do what Lorisays.
Do what Lori did.
It's really up to you.
If you get a no, that's not a nofrom everyone.
It's a no from that situation.
Turn left or right.
There's an open door somewhere,so take it.
(37:30):
And do as a solid, send this tosomeone you like who needs maybe
the shove through the door, aloving shove.
Through the tour.
And give us a review.
It tells the algorithm, Hey,people like this, and it shows
the podcast to other people.
And this is an act of passionfor me.
(37:53):
And I want to make sure thatpeople get access to the
inspiration that can help themtake that move and take that
step.
So, thank you for being here.
I'm Allison Lane, as always,your literary Sherpa, your
chaperone, and I'm here for you.
Until next time.
step out, take the risks.
(00:03):
The worst you're going to hearis no.
And we've all heard that beforeand we all survived hearing no.
But every once in a while, youhear yes.
And that makes it all worth it.
Allison (00:40):
Welcome back to the Author's Edge.
We are talking so much aboutopening doors for ourselves, and
sometimes means opening yourmind to what's next, especially
when your encore career turnsout to be some of the most
meaningful steps you've evertaken.
(01:03):
Todays's traded the courtroomfor her laptop keyboard,
launching a YouTube channel, anddoing this in retirement that
unexpectedly grew into a bookdeal.
And her book is such asuperstar.
(01:24):
If you've ever wondered if it'stoo late to write a book, Lori
Hellis is proof that your nextchapter is just waiting and it
might be your very best one.
So welcome, welcome, Lori.
I'm so glad to see you.
And I love that we match.
(01:44):
If you're watching on YouTube,you see that this happens all
the time where everybody showsup.
I'm like, did we plan this?
We did not.
Lori (01:52):
Hey, how are you?
Allison (01:54):
I am doing great.
I'm in Boston and it ismid-July.
No, it's mid-June.
Oh my gosh.
What is wrong with my head?
It is mid-June, a week ago, wewere wearing coats Today, it is
too hot to be outside.
Boston is so unreliable andinconsistent.
(02:14):
But where you are, the PacificNorthwest, it's like, cool in
the evening and warm during theday.
It sounds perfect.
I'll be right there.
I'm headed to the airport rightnow.
Lori (02:26):
Hey, I'll make up the guest room.
Allison (02:29):
Yeah.
I would love it.
Let's talk about your book,Children of Darkness and Light
and how that came to be.
So, can you just walk us throughthat and how you got interested
in writing about True crime whenfirst book was the No Nonsense
(02:52):
Guide to Divorce.
Sort of a left turn, but maybeit makes sense.
So, walk us through everything.
Lori (02:59):
So, for nearly 30 years, I practiced family and criminal
law.
Did a lot of criminal defensework, worked as a public
defender.
At one point, I worked as aprosecutor, so I had a lot of
experience in that realm.
So, when my daughter went tocollege, I was sort of trying to
(03:19):
figure out what I was going todo next and decided that I would
go back to school and get aMaster's in Fine Art in creative
writing.
Because I knew that I wanted thenext chapter to be writing.
I've always been a writer.
But I didn't have anything lawrelated or crime related on my
(03:41):
radar.
When people would ask me, oh,you're going to write crime
thrillers?
I'd be like, no, that's not onmy agenda.
So, after I retired, I heardabout this case, this really
crazy case.
And the time I heard about it Ithought, you know, it's like my
criminal defense, spidey senseswent off.
(04:03):
You know, I'm like, this is notat all what it seems.
And the deeper I got intofollowing it, the more I
thought, this is not what itseems.
So, I was right in the throes offinishing this book on divorce.
After I retired, I thought, whatis the thing that I can get
published quickest so I can getmy name out there?
(04:27):
And you know, it doesn't have tobe a house of fire, but I need a
published book.
So, I wrote this book aboutabout how to get divorced if
you're a millennial and it'scalled the No Nonsense Guide to
Divorce.
I was right in the throes offinishing up that book and I
mean, that was sort of a crazystory anyway.
(04:48):
Allison, and you and I metbecause we were taking a seminar
on how to write book proposals.
And so, I thought, I'll justsend this out to a few agents
and see if I'm on the righttrack, you know, maybe get a
little feedback.
And so, I sent to 10 agents.
And out of the 10, I got threethat were interested.
(05:11):
So I went with a guy who was notthe biggest or most important,
but I just liked him.
He had a good vibe and he wasjust a good fit.
So, we took on the divorce book.
It was just finishing up.
When I reached out to him andsaid what would you think about
true crime?
He was a little bit skeptical atthe beginning.
(05:34):
But I wrote the proposal and Isent it to him, and when he got
ahold of it, he was like, ohyeah we have to do this.
So, fortunately, it sold inabout three weeks and we were
off to the races.
Unfortunately, the trial hadn'thappened yet, and there were
many delays.
I have to say that the publisherwas very understanding about how
(05:58):
many delays we had.
So, we finally got through allthe trials.
I literally pushed send on themanuscript after writing the
last two paragraphs the day thatChad Debell was sentenced.
The book came out a year lastSeptember, and it's just been
hit in the ground ever since.
So, you and I talked about it.
(06:20):
I did your marketing seminar onhow to book launch bootcamp, I
think.
And it was super.
Allison (06:27):
Yeah.
The Book Seller Launch School,which is nobody knows how to
launch a book unless you dowhich I do.
And it way, way back.
This is og, this is before Ieven started the Facebook
community, and I was seeing youwho are like, I have this pitch.
You know, we are peers.
Can everybody take a look at itbefore it goes out?
(06:49):
And I don't remember likespending too much time and I
think you probably shared it inthat group.
And everything that happened foryou happened really quickly.
Usually, when people queryagents or publishers, the
average wait time is threemonths.
They say to 12 weeks, it's threemonths it.
(07:12):
You receive feedback right awayin your first round of querying.
So not only did you have asingular view and understanding
of what first book was going tobe.
But the second book, and we'llhave to get into the actual true
crime in a second.
You really understood how tomarket it, not just how to relay
(07:37):
the story of this horrificinstance of violence.
When you put together theproposal for either of those,
you're so cash about it now.
But usually people are on likebiting their nails and I hope
somebody gets back to me becauseit feels like when you're
(07:57):
querying, you're like putting itout into the world.
And is it a black hole?
Will it come back to you?
I think you always hadconfidence like, I know my poo.
I know that this is out thereand it will find the right
place.
Is that how you saw it?
Lori (08:12):
Well, I think so.
And I think it's because the lawis my niche.
I know the law and so I had somebuilt in street cred because of
that.
But I think some of it was justpure ignorance.
I was such a novice that I hadno idea that people send to a
hundred agents before they getone.
I was just going on what littleinformation I knew at that
(08:35):
point, because it's a prettysteep learning curve.
Allison (08:38):
Yeah, it is.
Publishing is hard to figure outand there's no, get published 1
0 1 that you could just take andget in it in an afternoon.
Although, I will take that on.
I will create, get published 1 01 and do it in an afternoon so
people don't have to guess orlisten to all my podcast
(08:58):
episodes back to back.
Although if you do, please dropme a line because I want to know
who you are.
So, let's talk about this caseand how it started to get hooked
in your mind of what is thisabout?
because you were not writingtrue crime, you were not
thinking about it, but you movedto a town in Utah, Arizona.
Lori (09:22):
Arizona.
Yeah.
Allison (09:24):
Tell us what you observed and how you got hooked
in.
Lori (09:30):
When I retired for quite a few reasons, I decided that we
needed to move.
We needed to not shovel snowduring the winter.
I needed to be out of thecommunity where I was so
connected to my colleague that Iwas worried that I would never
be able to really retire becauseI love those people and I would
(09:50):
see them overloaded with workand I would think, oh, I'll just
take a couple of cases, justrelieve the pressure.
And so I was really worried thatI wasn't going to be able to cut
those ties.
We moved from Central Oregon toMesa, Arizona, which is suburban
Phoenix.
And in the community right nextdoor to us in Gilbert.
(10:11):
This very odd incident happened,and I was just listening to the
news one night.
This young reporter was talkingabout the fact that this really
weird case had happened.
A case where it was alleged thatthis woman's brother shot and
killed her husband in an act ofself-defense.
And then, three weeks later, shedisappeared off the face of the
(10:34):
earth with her two children.
Nobody knew where she was.
Nobody had any contact with thechildren, and it was just a
really weird case.
And definitely one of thosewere.
When I was thinking about it andlistening to it, it didn't make
sense to me.
My experience with criminal law,I would just this doesn't add
(10:55):
up.
Something's weird here.
So, I started following it.
Then I discovered that there wasa Facebook group that was
following the case.
And so I joined that and thenpeople started asking questions.
She was found, she was inHawaii, the children were still
missing.
And they were extraditing herback to Idaho where she had
(11:17):
moved.
And people were asking questionsand they were legal questions.
And time I would answer them, Iwould have to add to the post
all the reasons why I knew whatI was talking about.
I had to always list mybonafides.
And I got tired of it.
So, I thought, what the heck?
I'll just start a littlenewsletter, blog about the legal
(11:39):
issues in the case.
So, asked permission from theFacebook group, if I could just
let people know that I had thisblog and I was excited When I
had 200 subscribers, I was like,wow, I had idea.
That's how it got started.
I got invited on a YouTubechannel by another creator and
to talk about the case, and thatled to me starting my own
(12:02):
YouTube channel.
So, I have a small YouTubechannel that does true crime
with a very sweet and devotedfollowing.
Allison (12:10):
Small, but I remember you saying really I just get on
the YouTube channel.
We go live on Friday nights.
We talk about what happened inthe case.
Lori (12:18):
Right.
Allison (12:18):
During the week, and suddenly you had 8,000
followers.
Lori (12:23):
That's true.
Allison (12:23):
8000 subscribers.
That's not small.
That's 8,000 people who didn'tjust watch, but they clicked
subscribe.
Lori (12:31):
Right.
Allison (12:32):
They're fascinated.
Lori (12:35):
In the law tube creator's sphere, 8,000 is a drop in the
bucket.
There are several of the YouTubecreators that have 120,000 half
a million subscribers.
To me it's small, but I love thecommunity.
I love being able to talk topeople who are interested in
cases and interested in thelegal aspects of the case.
(12:59):
I've always enjoyed teaching, soI like being able to things down
for people and explain stuff.
So, it's great fun.
And so, Wednesday nights I spenda couple of hours with my pals
and we talk true crime.
Allison (13:14):
Goodness.
So, it's not overnight, it'sthat it started with a Facebook
group.
You became prominent inside thegroup because your street cred
is undeniable.
And you started a newsletter soyou could just brain dump in it
without having to answereveryone's questions, onesie,
twosies.
(13:35):
And then that led to a YouTubechannel.
And all of this happened in thecourse of a couple months.
I remember.
Lori (13:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, it did.
And then yeah, about threemonths I think.
Allison (13:45):
Super quick.
Lori (13:45):
At that point I was already talking to my agent
about a book and on a bookproposal.
Yeah.
Allison (13:53):
But then just spoiler alert, the end of the story is
that the woman who wasextradited turns out, just go
ahead and tell the of the casebecause it's.
Lori (14:06):
So part of part of the case, that was interesting to me
is that she was deeply involvedin a faction of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-DaySaints a very sort of
fundamentalist faction.
And we all know that there arespinoffs outside of the LDS
(14:27):
church, like the FLDS and WarrenJeffs and all those people.
What was interesting about thisis a group that's in the
mainstream church.
So that was really interesting,but they're very much believers
in doomsday and dark and lightspirits and that spirits can
inhabit people.
And she claimed that evilspirits, it had conveniently
(14:52):
inhabited First her fourthhusband, Charles Vallow.
And then her two children whoshe didn't really have time for
because she was busy being agoddess and the leader of the
144,000 with her new SweetieChad Daybell.
The children's bodies were foundabout six months later when the
ground thawed in Idaho in ChadDaybell's backyard.
(15:17):
Yeah.
They also murdered ChadDaybell's first wife.
Yeah.
Allison (15:23):
Yeah.
A lot of people were I mean,just want to show the cover
because it's just even ahaunting Children of Darkness
and Light, Lori Vallow and ChadDaybell, A story of murderous
Faith.
And I love this cover and I'm soimpressed that you were able to
become the expert voice of theall entire case.
(15:46):
Now, when pivoting a little bitwhen you see people, and I'm
sure people come to you now, Ithink I'd like to write.
When you see people who aretrying to make you know, a pivot
when it comes to perhaps,writing true crime and now
you're seeing a lot of thembecause you went to Crime Con
and you were, you know rubbingelbows with a lot of people.
Lori (16:06):
Right.
Allison (16:07):
What do you see people doing that helps, and what's a
common mistake that people makewhen they really want to dig
into something?
Lori (16:16):
I think that people look at the massive information
that's online and think, oh, Ican just mine all of that
information find out what reallyhappened.
And there's a lot ofinaccuracies and a lot of online
content.
So, you really have to do yourown research.
Relying on somebody else andwhat's out there on the internet
might not be the most reliableway to write a true crime book.
(16:39):
Although, there are a couple ofauthors who do that.
And there are a couple of booksout about the Vallow case that
have a lot of inaccuracies inthem as a result.
Don't be fooled into thinkingyou can just go out and mine the
internet for a book.
You really have to do thelegwork.
Allison (16:56):
And you were in the courtroom, you were there every
day.
Lori (17:00):
Yeah.
Both trials.
Allison (17:01):
unfold.
Yeah.
Lori (17:02):
Trials.
And I actually moved to Idahofor two years while I was
writing the book.
I don't necessarily recommendfollowing your subject matter
around.
But it worked for us.
So yeah.
Allison (17:19):
So, your book explores the collision of mental health
and religious extremism and alsothis feeling of maybe
misperception of safety amongstyour neighbors.
And when your book was set tocome out, we talked a little bit
about how to elevate thisconversation.
(17:42):
So, it's not about this onecase, it's how the guy across
the street, kids, like how welldo you know him.
And how it's the responsibilityof a community to know, and set
the standard.
And can you talk a little bitabout that and how you've seen
(18:04):
or experienced youropportunities open up to talk,
not just about the case, butthese themes?
Lori (18:12):
Yeah, I do think that as after the book came out, and as
I've done some of the marketingbook tour sort of things.
You do see people saying, thiscould have happened in my
community.
This isn't an isolated event.
Allison (18:29):
Yeah.
Lori (18:29):
Both Mesa, Arizona and Rexburg, Idaho have large LDS
populations, Rexburg, Idaho, thestatistics are that about 20,
about 96% of the population thatlive in Rexburg are members of
the LDS Church.
So, there's that sense that thiscould happen in my community
(18:54):
because these people who I willtell you, living in Mesa the
people who were part of the LDSchurch were some of the best
neighbors you could ever have.
They're lovely people.
And I think there was this senseof, it was a shock for them to
know that these people wereliving in their own community
(19:14):
and in the cultural bubble ofthe church.
But for the non-believingpopulation was like, oh, I don't
know these people who seem onthe outside, very kind and very
active in the community.
What do I really know about myneighbors?
So, I think there definitely wasa version of that.
(19:36):
There definitely was a layer ofthat in people's comments.
Allison (19:41):
Yeah.
I'm sure you got into it a crimecon.
I just would love to hear all ofyour insights.
Lori (19:47):
Oh my goodness.
Allison (19:49):
Oh, I'm sure you had a ton of epiphanies when you were
there and seeing, the authorsand the speakers and the
podcasters and such.
When you consider all thatyou've achieved now and this
very visible voice that you nowhave.
Would you do anythingdifferently?
And what lesson have you learnedfrom all of this?
Lori (20:12):
You know, I'm not sure.
I would do too much differently.
I might not have moved to Idaho.
It wasn't my favorite place inthe world to live.
But outside of that, I'm notsure that I would have done
things differently, I thinkbecause it's a learning process
no matter how old you are, andno matter how experienced you
(20:32):
are when you venture into a newarea, it's just a learning
experience.
And I just happen to be one ofthose people who is chronically
curious and who loves learningnew things.
So, taking on something new andexciting and figuring it out.
I enjoy doing that.
(20:53):
But I'm not sure looking back onit that I I wanted to get out
there with a book before thetrial started because I felt
like, I would be batting cleanupif I didn't.
So, the fact that it tookanother two years to finally
write the book because of allthe delays that sort of comes
with that territory.
(21:13):
Yeah, it's been a really fun,really exciting adventure moving
out of what was comfortable forme for 30 years and into
something that's really new andexciting and different.
Allison (21:26):
And people call it retirement, but you are
certainly not moonwalking intothe shadows.
You're like, I hate the wordretirement because it makes me
think of people like shrinking.
And that's not you at all.
In fact, you are really steppingforward and thinking of what's
(21:47):
next.
Lori (21:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's funny because when Iannounced I was going to retire
from law practice, I don't thinkthat anybody who knew me thought
for one minute that I was goingto be sitting around eating bon
bons and watching soap operas.
It's just not me.
So I don't think anyone whoreally knows me was super
surprised that I launched intosomething in a different vein.
(22:10):
So
Allison (22:10):
Yeah.
Lori (22:11):
You mentioned Crime Con this year.
Crime con for the uninitiatedwho aren't in the true crime
community is this hugeconvention that happens every
year for people who are big truecrime followers.
And it usually features whatevercases are at the top of
everyone's mind and brings inlots of speakers, both people
(22:33):
who are creators as well aspeople who are in some way
involved in victims of crime orbeing lawyers who have
prosecuted or policeinvestigations.
And it draws every year thecrowds just multiply.
So this year it's in Denver thesecond weekend in September.
(22:56):
And the book has been nominatedfor their Clue Award.
So, I'm really excited aboutthat.
They nominate five books, sowe'll see what happens in
September.
But it was it was really a bighonor.
Thanks.
It was fun.
Allison (23:10):
So huge.
So huge.
So you have said before that youwish you started sooner, but you
were a busy court attorney.
Lori (23:26):
Yeah.
Allison (23:27):
Do you still think that you should have you wish you
could have started sooner or doyou actually wish that you
started sooner?
Lori (23:35):
I wish I could have started sooner, I think.
Everything that you think aboutthose things is all done colored
with hindsight and being able tolook back and think, oh man
yeah, I coulda, I would've, Ishould've.
And that's not life, that's justnot true life.
True life is that things happenas they're meant to unfold.
(23:57):
Yeah, part of me that thinks,man, I could be much further
ahead if I had started earlier,and you get to a stage in your
life where you're thinking,okay, so how many more years do
I have to be keeping doing this?
I don't make any secret of thefact that I'm facing the big
seven oh, next year.
And so, I just think, okay howmuch more time am I going to
(24:19):
invest in this?
And do I have it ahead of me todo it?
And I think, oh gosh, if I'donly started 10 years earlier,
but the reality is that it'ssuper exciting and it's just
added a lot to my retirementlife and thrilled about it.
I have a new project that I'mnot necessarily ready to
(24:40):
announce yet, but is superexciting and it's definitely
energized me.
It's another true crime book.
I feel like I had one more storyI really wanted to tell and then
we'll see.
But I'm really excited about thedirection it's going and by the
fall I think we're going to havesome really interesting
developments, so.
Allison (25:00):
Oh, I can't wait to hear.
As someone who's just observedyour rise and your achievement,
what strikes me is that you takeaction.
You see an opportunity, evenlike in the Facebook community,
you're answering people'squestions and you just thought.
(25:21):
You know what?
I'm just going to consolidatethis into a newsletter.
You didn't say that I can starta YouTube channel and that can
lead to some, you just the onenatural progression, but you saw
an opportunity.
And honestly, that was probablyeasier for you to consolidate
your thoughts in a newsletterthan to answer everyone's
(25:43):
question at a time.
So, when i'm just talking to theperson who's listening, who's
thinking, I wonder what I woulddo.
You can't plot that out.
You might hope for the endresult, but it's certainly hard
to see what the third step willbe until you take the first
(26:06):
step.
Even in the game shoots andladders, you don't know if
you're going to hit a ladder ora shoot.
And so you can't see the nextstep until you take the step in
front of you, but you do have totake a step.
Lori (26:21):
That's right.
I had a dear friend that was mylaw school bestie.
And she was very involved in therecovery community.
And the recovery community has asaying.
They say, you just suit up andshow up and let God do the rest.
And that's been my philosophyfor a long time.
(26:41):
I get up in the morning and Iwould put on my lady lawyer
clothes and the person whoneeded me would walk through the
door.
And I have done the same thingwith this journey.
I'm present and I am available,and I know that the doors are
going to open.
The important thing is you gotto take the step and walk
through them.
And if it's something as simpleas reaching out to the people in
(27:05):
the Facebook group and saying,Hey, would you mind if I told
people about this newsletter?
You know, that was really, thebeginning of it was saying, I
think the other thing was that Iwasn't saying subscribe to my
newsletter, pay me.
It was just I'm just going to beone lawyer out there posting
(27:26):
some random thoughts about thiscrazy case.
And if you're interested asinterested in it as I am, then
here's some info.
And it definitely grew quickly.
Now, the true crime, the genreof true crime has exploded.
It's incredibly popular and overthe last five to seven years
(27:50):
there's really been a big uptickin people's interest in it.
And I put that down to theavailability of podcasts and
YouTube shows where people
Allison (28:00):
Sure
Lori (28:01):
can tune in at their leisure.
Yeah.
But it was a combination ofbeing in the right place at the
right time and walking throughthe doors that got opened up.
Yeah.
Allison (28:12):
Yeah.
And taking the step.
Similarly, this podcast was noton my mind until we were in that
seminar together.
And then I opened up Facebookcommunity where it was just so
that we could stay in touch.
It didn't have a mission.
But after a few get togethers,people were joining and they all
(28:33):
had the same questions.
And they were all about how topitch an agent, can somebody
look at my pitch letter?
And I would say, share it.
You know what, send it to me andI'll revise it live while we're
all talking.
And then that person would comeback the next week and say, I
used it and I got an agentemailed me right back.
Yeah, of course they did,because I am a expert marketer.
Lori (28:56):
Right.
Allison (28:57):
Then that turned into me being proactive about it,
like similar to you of I'll justdo weekly workshops on how to
pitch or what your bio shouldlook like.
Because everyone's bio is sodull.
How to choose comps and thatbroaden your sales opportunity.
(29:17):
How to customize your outreachto a publisher or an agent and
what to say and what words toremove so that you're really
being efficient.
Because any pitch letter tomedia, to an agent, to a
publisher.
You have to care about thosewords as much as a poet would.
It's really a reduction sauce ofyour awesome book idea or your
(29:41):
awesome article idea, butthere's no room for extra words.
Lori (29:45):
Very true.
Allison (29:47):
Yeah.
Lori (29:47):
And especially when you're pitching to someone who's
reading hundreds of them.
Allison (29:52):
Yeah.
Every query gets one minute.
Lori (29:55):
Yeah.
And
Allison (29:55):
then next.
Yes.
Lori (29:57):
Yeah.
Allison (29:58):
And then after a while everyone went back to real life.
So I said, you know what?
I'm going to do this podcast.
I'm going to close the Facebookcommunity because people are
just weren't going to Facebookcommunities now.
And this allows me to reach somuch more people, so many more.
I think that's just a naturalprogression.
It was not my intent.
(30:19):
When I first got started, Isimply thought, got street cred
here and I should be, how couldI sit by when someone's idea is
so good?
All they need is to hone it, orthey need to know how to pitch
media so they can have a couplebylines so that the publisher
will see that they are indeed aleading voice.
(30:42):
Because sometimes you have tojudge your street cred a little
to have something recent.
And then all of those thingsworked.
Lori (30:50):
Well, I think it's just, it's a need.
There's a need out there thatyou saw and wanted to fill.
And it's been incrediblyhelpful.
The book Launch Bootcamp wasvery helpful for me.
Children of Darkness and Lightcame out with Pegasus Books and
they do some marketing and thereis a public, I do have a
(31:13):
publicist.
But they can't do it all.
And I felt like getting ahead ofdoing the things that you
suggested, getting all thematerials ready for my book
launch meant that they could bemore efficient with their time.
They weren't having to createthe author bios and the
(31:35):
excerpts, all of those things.
Allison (31:38):
Questions.
Here's a list of podcasts that Ishould be on because you will be
asked for all of that.
Lori (31:43):
Right.
Allison (31:43):
When you're launching your book.
Who should we reach out to?
And they look to you.
And oftentimes, you don't wantto not have an answer for that.
What is your marketing plan?
Lori (31:56):
Knowing ahead of time what to expect the questions that
they were probably going to askme.
And being able to have thoughtthrough all those things and
being able to say, here, let mejust send you this.
Your templates were absolutely,wonderful.
And I couldn't have done itwithout them.
It was absolutely well worth theinvestment.
(32:18):
And I also loved the other womenwho were involved in that
particular bootcamp and foundthem really interesting.
And so the whole experience wasso good.
And anybody who's thinking aboutlaunching a book, definitely
that was time and money wellspent.
Allison (32:36):
Thank you.
I think one point that you madeis that the community matters.
Anybody can take an onlinecourse, but.
Lori (32:46):
Sure.
Allison (32:46):
When it's live and there's community and you know
you're going through it withother people who are doing the
same thing that you are.
Boy, you really need that.
Even if it's just two or threepeople out of the whole court.
You really need that.
And then all thesecollaborations ensue of like
(33:08):
cross-promoting.
And you have a podcast, whydon't you come on my podcast and
we'll swap and introductions.
That wouldn't have happenedunless you dig in.
So, it's not just, Hey, can Ihave your methods?
Lori (33:25):
Right.
It was super fun.
I was invited to the TucsonFestival of Books and when I got
there, I met in person, one ofthe women that had been in the
book launch seminar.
And that was super fun.
It was exciting.
And we were able to go, oh,yeah, really fun.
Allison (33:43):
I know online friends become in real life friends,
like ta-da.
Lori (33:46):
That's been the way it's been with the true crime
community as well.
There is a group of a subset ofYouTube called Law Tubers.
And they all tend to show up atCrime Con.
And so, you get to meet inperson people that you've been
talking to for months and yearsonline.
And yeah, those are funopportunities.
Allison (34:08):
Awesome.
Well, let me pivot because Ialways ask, what is a book you
want to make sure that peopleare reading other than yours?
Which I just dropped again, butChildren of Darkness and Light,
you got to get it.
What's a book you love?
Lori (34:23):
I have to quickly make sure I get the title right.
Because I want to do the bookjustice.
So it is I got to look it up onmy book list.
Doris Kearns Goodwin, of course,I can't spell.
Allison (34:38):
Wasn't it?
Lori (34:38):
Kearns Goodwin an unfinished love story is
probably one of my favoritesright now.
She of course has been apolitical historian for all of
my life, and maybe it justresonates to me because she met
her husband.
And her personal history relatedto the sixties and seventies.
(35:01):
And that's my era.
Maybe that's part of it, but Ilove the story.
It's the story of she and herhusband, both very well known
political operatives andpolitical historians and going
back and looking at the sixtiesand seventies by going through
the boxes that he had kept forall those years of his own
(35:24):
personal files and going backthrough them that nixon era and
the post Nixon post Watergateera, really interesting.
I've always found herinteresting anyway, and I
recommend that one.
Allison (35:36):
Yeah.
I love her.
She used to show up on the JohnStewart the Daily Show.
The favorite episodes.
Lori (35:43):
Yeah.
Allison (35:44):
And she would just come in there with her readers on.
And so surprising of such a bigpersonality with a little lady
cardigan.
Loved her.
Lori (35:53):
Yeah.
She is just veryunapologetically who she is and
I appreciate that.
Allison (35:58):
Yeah.
All right.
Before we call this podcastcomplete, what's one thing that
you want to leave people with?
Lori (36:06):
I would say, do all the things.
Take the steps, take the risk.
Say about my 38 year ofmarriage, it works because my
husband is the less risk averseperson who's always pulling me
back and saying, maybe we betterlook at this again.
And I'm always the person on theprecipice with my toes hanging
(36:27):
over the edge.
But I would say step out, takethe risks.
The worst you're going to hearis no.
And we've all heard that beforeand we all survived hearing no.
But every once in a while, youhear yes.
And that makes it all worth it.
Allison (36:47):
I can't think of anything better.
That was so powerful.
Ooh, full body chills.
Lori, thank you for being here.
And thank you for putting in thetime while you're in traffic to
listen to this and open the doorto your next move.
(37:07):
All you have to do is stepforward.
Just one step, do what Lorisays.
Do what Lori did.
It's really up to you.
If you get a no, that's not a nofrom everyone.
It's a no from that situation.
Turn left or right.
There's an open door somewhere,so take it.
(37:30):
And do as a solid, send this tosomeone you like who needs maybe
the shove through the door, aloving shove.
Through the tour.
And give us a review.
It tells the algorithm, Hey,people like this, and it shows
the podcast to other people.
And this is an act of passionfor me.
(37:53):
And I want to make sure thatpeople get access to the
inspiration that can help themtake that move and take that
step.
So, thank you for being here.
I'm Allison Lane, as always,your literary Sherpa, your
chaperone, and I'm here for you.
Until next time.
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